Here I present a case study from the Land of Daygame. This is about a guy on his daygame path, how he met a cute girl, and tried to take her on a date… but it never happened. I like this post because it’s not just another “victory lap” full full of platitudes. It’s a messy story where I show what I see in terms of female psychology and how I am responding based on where I am at with my game. I am part of the mess. If you’re out trying to seduce women… you probably are as well.
Here’s how we met:
It was about a week ago, late on a Sunday afternoon. She was quite cute by my standards. Wearing a hat, with silky dark hair streaming out of it, framing her face. She was carrying some shopping bags. As she made it across the intersection, I opened her. She stopped.
She stopped completely and I had her full attention, but she wasn’t flirting with me. She was surprised, and had a partially frozen expression on her face (that’s a fairly common reaction). We all know the expression, “fight or flight,” but I like “fight, flight, freeze or fuck” (I think that a better range of responses). In her case, she gave me a calm, slightly judgmental “freeze.”
I think I opened with “you caught my attention, I wanted to meet you.” After some of that freeze-face from her, she asked where I noticed her. I told her across the intersection. She then made some gesture like she wanted to know what I wanted, I told her in a straightforward way that I was hitting on her. Very direct. That comment seemed to help drop her deeper into the interaction. It gave her some context, I was clearly not trying to bullshit her… all this seemed to loosen her up a little.
As she stood there looking at me, I said something I sometimes say in situations like this, “Is this too weird for you?” This is one of those “elephant in the room” kind of moments, and in my experience, it seems to increase comfort. It did with her.
She opened up a little, and volunteered that she was just coming back from a workshop. It was “emotional,” she said. As she said it, I felt an internal “ping” that was a kind of “red flag.” I like emotion in girls and I wasn’t sure why I felt that way at the time, but I believe she was doing what guys I respect call an “early frame announcement:”
“Detecting a woman’s self-esteem is strictly linked with a concept we have coined as the Early Frame Announcement (EFA).”
“As a rule, a woman will say or do something early on in a relationship, by which she will unwittingly reveal the degree of her self-esteem and also what she expects from her relationships with men. Therefore, it is important that you pay very close attention to what a woman does and says at the very beginning of any relationship.”
— From “Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man”
This concept is fascinating for me, and I think this was a good example. This “emotional” thing she mentioned… she was kind of confessing. It felt like a “tell” of some kind. I bet there is more to that.
In response to her comment, I told her that I don’t often do “workshops,” but I did one this year (it’s true), it was three days, and by Sunday afternoon I was also exhausted. The chemistry between she and I wasn’t what I would call “magical,” but she was still standing there, taking a long look at me, so I kept going. I told her that that workshop was about masculinity and femininity (it was). She asked if it was by David Deida (some free audio in that link)… which surprised me.
I am a big fan of David Deida (“fuck her open to God”). And in fact, the workshop I had taken was with a guy named John Wineland, who is a student of David Deida’s. I took the course with Wineland, particularly to learn the masculine/feminine stuff that guys like Deida and Wineland teach (great course). This is more “hippy” than I would normally go with a girl on a pickup, but I told her all this… and she seemed to hook. We had common ground with the seminar thing. And I was hoping the masculine/feminine reference was a good foundation for us to start from.
As I went to number close her, she showed some caution. I told her I’d take her number, ping her, and if she wanted to come out she could. She said she’d like to hear more about my workshop, and seemed genuinely interested. This is not the kind of girl I normally date, but okay, I thought… it’s a lead. She pawed her number into my phone, and I walked off to meet my wing and do some more sets.
I pinged her on the spot that day. Not to test the number, but just to get the message into my message queue so I’d remember her (and she wouldn’t be another contact floating around my phone). I went off to hunt some more, and she pinged back right away, enthusiastically.
NASH: More later…
NASH: – Nash
HER: Nice meeting you! Sure!
A good sign. Maybe it was on?
24 hours later, I got busy working my lead:
NASH: Hey girl… Sitting down to dinner with a friend.
NASH: Interesting chat on the sidewalk yesterday. Have you recovered from your workshop??
HER: I’m still getting over a painful separation of connection from the last few days, so to be honest, I am not available to date.
HER: I do appreciate you checking in on me.
Blah. Not a hot response… more red flag material. And she framed my interest in her in this “nurturing” way (which is not hot at all, not “man-to-woman”). I figured it was a lost cause, so I sent one more text before I moved on:
NASH: Hmmmm, okay. Take care of yourself.
NASH: And when you’re ready for some high-quality attention… let me know.
NASH: I’ll take us for tea.
I was just fishing here. My offer of “high quality attention” was real, but was also more “hippy talk” (if that is her thing). No big deal, and I was happy to walk away… but I left the door open.
She responded quickly:
HER: I can still meet, just not romantically?
Hmmm. What does that mean… with the “?” at the end, like she isn’t even sure what she’s saying. A shit test? I didn’t know. I doubled down:
NASH: Well… this whole thing started with my confession that I think you’re an attractive girl
NASH: But I can behave myself for a cup of tea.
That ^ is not hyper sexual, but I’m not hiding my dick either. No “pretending to be friends.” I was working with what I had in front of me.
Losers get friendzoned. Men get rejected.
— tddaygame (@tddaygame) August 1, 2017
Really like this ^ from TDdaygame, it’s a great line. I am happy to get rejected, but I have no interest in falling into the friendzone. I think I had shown that in my response.
I had a plan in mind that would fit my schedule, so I continued to lead:
NASH: Do you have a normal 9-5 schedule?
HER: If you’re around XYZ neighborhood area let me know!
Solid responses from her. But what to make of this girl?
I had a couple of red flags. And it felt like she had tried to push us into the friendzone earlier. But here she is, leaning forward. And these messages were coming quickly. She was encouraging me. And she is telling me roughly where she lives, which is not something a girl will do if she is trying to get rid of you.
I took these comment as more encouragement and I went back to leading:
NASH: I am camping this weekend…
NASH But what about Friday afternoon?
NASH: I have an appointment at 11, but after I’m done…
NASH: Come with me for lunch in XYZ city.
I had a “maybe” girl on the line. I wasn’t acting needy. I felt like I had passed some tests, and that she had recognized I had passed them and was giving me some room to work. Perhaps this was moving in the right direction?
HER: That may work, I don’t know how to drive though
NASH: In that case ^, I won’t let you behind the wheel. : ]
NASH: How about I text you when my meeting is over, then I’ll come through and pick you up.
I never like that response. I don’t want to read too deeply into something like that, but that could be another small red flag for this story.
And it was another odd comment. She is a grown woman, with perfect English (she’s not a foreigner). It’s odd that she doesn’t know how to drive. Very odd for California. But my plan was to pick her up. And that last comment had a hint of cuteness to it (or so I felt at the time). I thought, perhaps, I had her softened her up a bit. And it sounded like we had a date, after all.
The morning of our date, I got this:
HER: When were you thinking?
HER: I realise I may have a meeting with my lawyer thought I’m not sure if he will cancel last minute.
HER: I can do later after the meeting 2/3.
HER: Let me know and thanks for organizing.
There is a lot of information here ^. She is following up on her own, which I like. The comment about the lawyer is another red flag (she doesn’t need to tell me that). She is changing the plan (which I don’t like), but she is encouraging the meetup despite her appointment. It wouldn’t be lunch now, but she is showing some gratitude. The delay meant some friction for our date… but I wasn’t bothered.
I went to the gym to work out and a few hours later I responded:
NASH: Good morning.
NASH: My meeting is about to start.
NASH: What’s the status on your flakey attorney?
HER: He hasn’t responded which means the meeting is on.
HER: Can you do around 4pm today?
Another change of plans. I caught the faint scent of BS at this point, but I still wasn’t too concerned. That would mean I couldn’t daygame that afternoon (which I wanted to do), but I could get a few things done before we met (and before I left for the weekend to camp).
NASH: Hey… sounds cool.
NASH: I have some work to do for my clients.
NASH: Let’s check in later and I’ll come pick you up.
HER: Ok after 4ish works for me.
HER: I can even do 5/6
Hmm. Now it seems it might be a evening date… which might be better.
As you can see… all this time… I’m trying to read into her psychology. Her talking about being “emotional.” The pushback on “dating.” The changes in the plan. And the intermittent encouragement. Each contribution from her was a chance for me to try to wrangle her… and to show how I can move through the social circumstances.
Sinn (a pickup guy, and a student of Mystery’s) used to say: “Daygame is a test of how normal you are.” This girl and I had had a lot of back and forth. It was mostly logistics, but reading between the lines, I assumed this back/forth to be a type of comfort. The exchanges were mutual. We were able to communicate. There was a rhythm to it all. I thought I had felt her showing a softer side. She had seen some calm strength from me… I assumed, that in her mind, I had become a “real person.” And maybe she was ready for a real “date,” an evening date, despite the chatter to the contrary.
HER: I’m heading back now so around 4:30/5?
And she came back again, putting in effort. Seemed on.
NASH: Great. 5ish.
NASH: I’ll be drinking tea… can I bring you some?
HER: Where are we going?
As we were originally going for lunch the plan was now more than a little disjointed. It had become an early evening date, but I said “I’ll pick you up.” I still wanted to take that drive, chat in the car, get to know her — because I like those drives, and, my car is comfortable and a good space to talk. The view is gorgeous. This is a route to some of my favorite casual dinner spots. I have taken dozens of girls on this drive…
NASH: I still like the idea of a drive… Head north. Any excuse to see the bridge.
HER: How about we meet at XYZ Coffee on Main St first?
And here… after all the run around… I was done. Time to stop negotiating with this girl.
She had postponed twice, and now, she wanted to take over the planning, so that we end up on a lame coffee date. I am fine with coffee dates… but not with this kind of momentum. Under other circumstances, yes… but not this time.
The biggest issue here… she is showing she can’t/won’t follow my lead. Along with all the other issues with this date, that’s a deal breaker for me.
Our initial “hook” had happened when we had Deida in common. And he is all about masculine/feminine polarity. So am I. Her refusing to follow my lead means we can’t get that polarity going. If I allow this connection to proceed with her showing low- to no- willingness to follow my lead, it’s broken from the start, and not worth my effort.
I called off the date:
NASH: Lady… I am interested in you, but this is starting to feel like a bad job interview.
NASH: I am going to do something else.
NASH: If you’re still interested… Send me a note next week and I’ll try again.
NASH: Have a great night.
This ^ is how I handled it. I have done something like this once before, under similar circumstances. I don’t love it, but I’m okay with this response.
Maybe I fucked this up. Maybe it would have been a decent date and the start of something interesting. But I don’t think so. Not at all.
I think this was a type of (unconscious) shit test from her… and/or a chance for me to become roped into the bullshit of her inner world. So I didn’t comply. She had moved the plan around so many times, I wanted to push back. Not to “punish her for bad behavior,” but to turn my back on her, take my attention away. After all the bullshit, this response from me wasn’t artifice… I was ready to turn my back on a weak opportunity.
I believe strongly that “how it starts is how it goes.”
And this girl first said “no dating,” then agreed to a date, postponed it twice in the same day, and then wanted it her way. That was more baggage than I was interested in “picking up.” As the hippies say, this wasn’t feeling “organic” to me.
Was her response to my suggestion of a “drive” just about her safety? Maybe. And that’s fair.
But that also shows a real lack of attraction.
> to get girls wanting to fuck you enthusiastically
– Mark (from a comment on my blog)
That ^ is interesting. Yes, guys want to get laid. But what makes her want you ENTHUSIASTICALLY?
Great comments from this guy.https://t.co/d30BIIuerB
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) August 21, 2018
I don’t know that guy Mark other than the comment I linked to above… but his use of “enthusiastically” strikes me as some of the best guidance I’ve had in game in a long time. That is an excellent standard. How do we get girls to want to date us (and fuck us) “enthusiastically?”
I have had that, many times. I get it. And trying to use that comment as a light that leads toward growth: Was this a girl that wanted anything from me in an “enthusiastic” way? What kind of guy do you have to be to get enthusiastic responses from girls? And what kind of guy am I if I am willing to date (or worse yet, actively pursue) girls that aren’t showing me enthusiasm? What does that do to your state… running around behind girls that aren’t excited about you?
What would that say about my inner game?
This girl and I had a pretty intense pickup in the first place. And lots of time for comfort. Text isn’t everything, but she had a lot of time to check me out over the week as we set up this date and did our back and forth. And she had already agreed to the lunch plan… but was now changing terms.
Yohami has tried to teach me not to create “tussle” in these situations. That really wasn’t what I was trying to do here. This wasn’t about my pride. I wasn’t trying to be “badass” and “flex” just because I didn’t get my way.
For me, I think my response was about 1.) Filtering away from red flags (I already had my doubts), 2.) Proving to myself that I won’t chase a “so-so” opportunity down a hole to nowhere, and 3.) I was genuinely convinced the date would suck.
I could have taken her up on her plan… and I bet 1$ I would have ended up sitting across the table from her, on a “flat” date, in a corporate coffee place, the whole affair stripped of any sexuality. It would have been like that, and it would have been my fault… for agreeing to that plan. I wasn’t the slightest bit excited about any of that.
“A man is devastated, when a relationship ends, to the exact degree that he compromised his terms. The girl is not the problem. What we lose is, we lose integrity. Because we gave something up that we cared about. When you are just trying to have sex, you never want to that. The sex isn’t worth it. She’s going to eat into you, like a corrosion.”
— Paul Janka
Janka is talking about “relationships” here, but this quote applies well to how I felt in this situation. He is nailing something important: How much are you compromising to see a girl?
I was into this date, even though there was some friction, right up until she turned it into a lame coffee meetup. If I had gone, it would have been my “thirst” driving me, my lack of other options, not any kind of excitement, not any leadership or power on my part. It would have been from a place of weakness. And it would have been a compromise…. I really didn’t want go. If I am a cool guy… why am I compromising what I want to date some “red flag” girl?
“How it starts is how it goes.”
Even if we had turned that date into some kind of ongoing thing… is this how I wanted it to start? Would any of this be okay if it became a pattern for her/my relationship? No. Not at all.
And if I had gone on that date… and had a mediocre time… who’s fault would it be? Mine. Of course. It’s never about these girls…. it’s all about us as men.
She replied. I didn’t respond back. Case closed.
Now… there is a (remote) chance she’ll ping me. I specifically gave her that instruction… maybe she’ll follow up “next week.”
When I refused that last step in the negotiation, I was doing it for me… but it might have caught her attention. I don’t like doing these kinds of things as a way of seeking a reaction, but it is possible she will think about it (men rarely tell women “no”) and come around.
“How it starts is how it goes.”
And if she comes around, willing to follow my lead… that could work for me. If she can’t do that, I’m not interested.
And if she comes around, no… we won’t do coffee in her neighborhood. I’ll make her commit to a real date. And we’ll know she wants it if she comes around again. I’m not betting on it. But if she does… perhaps then we’ll be on a path worth staying on.
Again, thinking in some Yohami terms… there is TOP GUY and BOTTOM GUY.
Top Guy would have had her showing better behavior in general. She would have been more attracted, and we would have seen “enthusiasm” instead of “tests.” More open doors, fewer “puzzles” to solve. I wasn’t getting Top Guy treatment from her… and I was wise to recognize that.
And Bottom Guy… Bottom Guy would have done a lot of things differently than I did in this case study. I don’t think he would have handled the pickup well, or taken a number from a Maybe Girl in the first place (he wouldn’t have known what to do with her “freeze face”). And I think he would have staggered around when she said she wasn’t available to date (showing weakness and uncertainty). And while he would have agreed to all the date reschedules (like I did), he definitely would have taken the coffee date… even if it wasn’t really what he wanted.
In the end… I was sure that Top Guy wouldn’t have ended up on that coffee date. Bottom Guy would have. Bottom Guy would have showed up, like an eager guy at a “job interview,” begging for a job. It would have been “okay.” And there would be zero attraction. And he’d never see her again. Or worse… she’d agree to date a guy she could completely control (for whatever reasons), she wouldn’t be that into him, and he’d have to deal with that in an ongoing way… some guy, kept around to carry her “baggage.”
And if, like me, he felt like he “compromised” with all the “agreeing,” then not only would he have not had fun with this girl, but he also would have shown HIMSELF that he truly is Bottom Guy… no standards, all thirst.
I am okay with how I responded that day. I was a little irritated at the time, certainly. Disappointed. And I didn’t have a lot of time to think about it.
If I had it to do over, I might have said:
HER: How about we meet at XYZ Coffee on Main St first?
NASH: Oh, you want to turns this into a bad “Tinder” date? : ]
I like this ^, as it does some of what I did, but keeps the “dance” going. It pushes back on her fucking with the plan, it judges her, but it does it in a more playful way. That would have been better.
Or maybe this:
HER: How about we meet at XYZ Coffee on Main St first?
NASH: Would a cool guy say “yes” to this^ ??
I like that last version best. With that, I could still walk away, but it gives her one more chance to see me working from a strong position, showing some acuity in how I read the social dynamics, giving her yet another chance to get with the program and show some willingness to follow my lead.
Hindsight… 20/20… all that.
In the end… I don’t want to date a girl that won’t follow my lead. I am so clear on that. It feels good to know that… as an internal standard… and to have stuck to it. Like Janka said in the quote above: Integrity.
This is a messy case study, but this is me showing my inner game work in real-time. I am much better than I was a year ago, and yet, I’m not a finished product. This isn’t about this girl. It’s about me. It’s always about US, as men. Am I the kind of guy that will endlessly chase a “so so” opportunity? What would that say about me? Even if she was a “10” (which she was not), would I agree to those terms? No. I would not.
It’s not about being stubborn… it’s about knowing what a good “connection” looks like (and how to create one). It’s about knowing how important it is that a man can lead, and that a quality girl follow his lead. This is about me working on my foundation, getting my inner game straight.
Maybe she’ll “feel” this attitude from me, and get that it’s a signal of the kind of man I am. Maybe she’s been on enough dates with luke-warm guys (that do whatever she asks), where she has felt the boredom of that lack of polarity, and she’ll sense the difference in the way I handled her. She may not be a 10, but I doubt many men have walked away from dates with her before.
Maybe she’ll get it, but I don’t care. I did what I needed to do that afternoon for me.
The truth was… I had something else to do that afternoon that meant more to me than a “boring date.” I hit the street to talk to girls. And it wasn’t a great day on the sidewalk, but I felt no sense of having compromised myself. That was clean. I spent that evening with my wing The Vicar (you’re a great wing, man). We drank tea and walked around. And we talked to some cute girls… continued to invest in our craft.
We are all works in progress… this is where I am.