(Another) Date with a Girl with a Boyfriend
I often say that about 1/2 of the time when I am on a date I find out the girl has a boyfriend or is married. This, is yet another one of those stories.
I met her last Thursday, the same magical day I met the Thai girl… And several others. I don’t know why, but I was very on that day. She was one of 5 numbers I took– She, the Thai girl, this girl I will call “HipHop,” (who has stopped texting me already), this other girl (that I texted yesterday, but didn’t respond), and “Hong Kong” (she and I have a date for Thu). So, for that day, 5 numbers, I’ve already dated 2 of them, with a yet another date scheduled. I like those stats. It was a good day.
I am so glad the fucking summer is over… this feels normal. Maybe a little better than normal. Maybe I’m on my way to really “breaking through” with my game… let’s see what the Fall brings.
This one, had an incredible walk. Uhh, I can still feel it. Grabbed my attention. I stopped her and told her so. She’s very feminine – I told her that as well – but not especially beautiful. However, she is in that stage of her life where she is at or near her peak – that combination of youth and maturity. She totally turns me on. Very interesting girl. It was a frustrating, but good date.
My goal, was the kiss. I failed.
She is Chinese. From Hunan province. I’d guess she’s 25-26? She is about 5’5″, and deliciously thin, with shoulder length hair. She has some kind of scar near her eye, that is noticeable, but doesn’t phase me one bit in terms of my desire. She’s been here a few years, got her masters in architecture, has a job in the city, but lives across the bay. Thick accent, but great English.
She loved being picked up, and said she had never been approached like that before. I really liked her, and she was at the top my list for girls that day.
I wanted to get her out and see if that walk was as remarkable on a second encounter.
Nash: Miss [Nickname.] You were so refreshing on the sidewalk tonight.
Nash: Great to meet you.
Her: You are brave…
Her: But Good to meet you too.
As we texted, I kept referring to her “unforgettable” walk, and called her “Cute Girl” as I set up the date wanting to make sure she knew the frame.
And I will stop and say… Girls always get it. When they say they just thought you wanted to be friends, or whatever, they are deliberately misinterpreting it, because they don’t like you, or want plausible deniability, or whatever. But I am increasingly convinced… There is no such thing as a naive girl. This girl was another lesson from that book.
We meet downtown, near where I picked her up. I take us for tea, a great spot, and we jump on the train toward where she lives. We get off just across the bay, and I take her to a great ramen spot I know. It’s going well. I feel cool. She is being girly and agreeable, and is clearly enjoying herself.
I get after the usual questions. I start w/ simple stuff – her friends, what she likes to cook — and she won’t answer much. She says she doesn’t like to talk about herself, but knowing what I know now, I think she was just checking me out for the first half of the date.
I move to talk about kissing, she’ll give me basic info. Her first kiss was in high school. She won’t tell me when her first sex was… And when I ask about that, and call her out for being mysterious, she says, “You don’t know me. I could have a story. Maybe I’m married? Maybe I have kids?” And she laughs, and then immediately says she is not married, but she liked playing with that moment.
Dinner ends. I plan to take her to a great bar I know, but she says she wants to walk. We do that a bit. We get to this little park, and I move in, touch her a bit, stand a little too close, and ask if she’s kissable. I wanted to kiss her, that was real. Very real. Announcing it this like was a way to transition in that direction, as she is very careful about how much she’ll let me touch her (not much at all), and she’s not giving me the eyes either. I move us toward the kiss because I want to see things go that way, not because I think we’re especially ready.
And… she says, “I won’t kiss you, and… I have a boyfriend.” And she smiles. She seemed to enjoy revealing that card.
Hmmm, I’m surprised.
This girl was super game, loved the pickup, was easy to text with, and gave me very little resistance to setting up the date. All this, with a boyfriend.
Interesting, now, about that comment at dinner when she mentioned how I didn’t know her and that she might be married. At that point, she knew she had a BF, and hadn’t told me, but was fucking w/ that idea between she and I. I pointed all this out to her, later in the night after she loosened up. Girls and their mischief.
I’m not freaked out by the boyfriend comment. They met online, some app. He’s white, like me. She tells me that he had sex with some girl at a festival recently, and that he told her, and it’s still an issue between them. I can’t remember what made her say that, but I assume now that her coming out w/ me is some kind of payback for him doing that. She says she wanted to come out with me for the adventure. She tells me, “I’m brave too!”
I’m interested in all this as I try to understand women. This is what girls are like.
We stroll around a bit more, I’m back to talking about sex, and she agrees to come to the bar after all. She is tired, but doesn’t want the date to end. We sit down with some drinks, and she transforms into a much spicier girl.
I wonder if I will ever get it that these “good girls,” these sweet “innocent” Asian girls, aren’t the slightest bit innocent. There is no such thing as a “good girl.” That’s an illusion for guys that don’t have the experience to know better. I tell her all this.
And we talk about all things sexual – somehow, between dinner and now, everything has opened up. She has never kissed a girl, nor does the want to. She thinks she is kinky, and when I ask what that means to her, she tells me she has been to a BDSM club with her boyfriend. We talk about 3-somes, and yes, she would like to have two cocks in her at the same time. The answer to my favorite question, as to how she likes to come… cock. And it’s hard to get her off. She often tells guys not to even try, as she doesn’t want them to be frustrated. She can make herself come, no toys, still takes a bit, working her clit. She doesn’t like it when guys try to put fingers in her. If I had to guess… I’d say she’s been with 8-15 guys. This innocent, young, Chinese girl. That’s my guess.
You would never know any of this, by looking at her. You’d think conservative. You’d never think “two cocks at once.”
For the record… she was on her period the day her walk caught my eye. I know this, as I was talking about ovulation, and how maybe that was why I was so interested in her, and she said, no, that it was a period day. Okay. Her walk was just as hot tonight. She moves beautifully.
I tell her over and over that it is killing me that I can’t kiss her, and I mean it. And I point out how well she is responding to me, and how fem she’s being, and she agrees. It’s hot. She likes me. I look her dead in the eyes and tell her she’s turning me on… but it’s going nowhere.
We sit together for a while as we wait for our trains to comes… her, out to the burbs. Me, back to the city.
She won’t kiss me. I give her a hug and walk off to my train. I tell her, “Maybe… I’ll see you again,” and I shrug. She knows I want to.
I’m split about the potential with her. Some guy, with the same start I had tonight, could get this girl into his bed. I think I might be able to also… maybe. Sounds like a lot of work.
I have a date tomorrow with a girl I’ve known a long time, that wants me more than I want her. We have so many friends in common, I don’t know that I want to go there with her. I have a date on Thu with the last of the daygame girls from last Thu. I think I’ll hit the streets tomorrow to hunt a bit. Pancake contacted me, and maybe he’ll come out as well. It’d be fun to have a wing.
As for this one… I think I’ll roll off for a couple of days… starve her a little. I gave that girl a rich night, and she might miss it.
We’ll see. Viva daygame.
“My goal, was the kiss. I failed.”
I suggest that you make the goal having your dick inside of her, and do things to move in that direction. For example instead of going to a bar bring her back home, or to a bar that is under your apartment, then bring her home after the first drink.
Also all the sex talk – my experience there is very unilateral, as I very, very rarely engaged in sexual talk before having sex. That would usually happen after the sex. So Im wondering if all the sex talk is acting as a replacement of the actual sex act. Why: if you want to know what she likes and how she comes, what better way there is than to have her naked and fucking her and finding out how she comes by yourself?
This is a girl with a boyfriend going out with you and talking raunchy. There’s nothing innocent about it. She was there for sex, and sex is on the table. That means you could have taken her. So take her. If you want it.
In other news I was reading today about hierarchies and sexual behavior in other animals, found this which is relevant to daygame and PUA. Basically PUA is tempting girls out of some alpha dude’s circle and attempt to do sneak copulation.
Here’s the relevant bit
“Sneak copulations and female mimicry
Burying beetles, which have a social order involving one dominant male controlling most access to mates, display a behavior known as sneak copulation. While one male at a carcass has a 5:1 mating advantage, subordinate males will tempt females away from the carcass with pheromones and attempt to copulate, before the dominant male can drive them forcefully away. In flat lizards, young males take advantage of their underdeveloped secondary sex characteristics to engage in sneak copulations. These young males mimic all the visual signs of a female lizard in order to successfully approach a female and copulate without detection by the dominant male. This strategy does not work at close range because the chemical signals given off by the sneaky males reveal their true nature, and they are chased out by the dominant. –nÕ”hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy”
The female mimicry cracks me up but I’ve seen these guys.
Anyway, good story and thanks for sharing.
“Announcing it this like was a way to transition in that direction”
Exercise for you: do without permission, do, don’t announce. Take, don’t ask.
Ha… the “Yohami voice” has been in my head now again as I do this stuff. I know how you feel about this, Sensei.
Yeah… I think you’re right, I could just *do* some of the this, not talk about it. And sometimes, I do. If I think the kiss is there, if she feels compliant, like she’s ready or “floppy” enough to take it when it comes, I’d just kiss her. Taiwanese girl… we had talked some sex, yes, but as I kissed her the first time, I just did it. I felt like it, I did it, she was totally compliant.
But if it feels like the kiss isn’t there… like compliance isn’t there… like an attempted would just get pushed away… I think announcing it serves the same purpose as going for it and getting rejected. Both are fine. Both can be good, actually. They both serve the purpose of making sure she knows that this is not about friends or anything else. Making sure she knows you won’t wait long for sex…
If she sticks around after a failed kiss, or a verbally rejected one, she knows you’re going to escalate. That’s what this is all about for me.
For shy/traditional girls, this has helped me move things along. Push it further every time, and if she keeps coming out, that’s her saying “yes.”
Someone could have taken this farther last night, I’m sure. But that girl was not ready to kiss me. She was about 1/2 step behind me most of the night and I felt like I moved her along pretty well.
If she comes out w/ me again, she knows I’ll escalate. And I know she’s ready for it.
You’re not wrong, man. But I know this process works. I don’t do it like this every time… but this is a way to move things along.
Framing. You kiss her when she wants it. You can also request a kiss when you want it.
In contrast, the frame where you’re going with this is one where she may not want the kiss and you’re going uphill towards rejection.
Explanation. The frame you put in is the frame you create. You are the leader, she follows.
Whatever happened in your life, you were placed in a position where life was uphill and women rejected you. You learned that frame, learned to move in that frame, learned the rules and how to operate and how to take advantage and how to move there.
And now you embrace the frame and take it along with you to every new girl you want.
Literally, you’re proposing an uphill frame where you conquer obstacles and have to fight and deal with rejection. That’s the game you are inviting them to play.
Then you may win sometimes and you reinforce the cycle and the frame.
Line by line;
“But if it feels like the kiss isn’t there… like compliance isn’t there… like an attempted would just get pushed away… ”
If she’s not submissive use body language, tone, “swing your dick in front of her” which translates to “display your attributes” or “show high value” and escalate with kino, move her around, get closer, invade her space, bring her to yours, etc. This is not rocket science – Lance from Pickup 101 has dvds after dvd about this, and the guys from RSD do only that, few verbal signals, some kino, and kiss, all under one minute. This is a girl who went out with you because there’s sexual tension already.
So “like an attempted would just get pushed away… ”
You’re creating that on your own.
“I think announcing it serves the same purpose as going for it and getting rejected. ”
No, it signals that you want to test waters to avoid rejection. Which is not compatible with a strong masculine frame, but compatible with a weak unmasculine frame. So the act of verbalizing it DECREASES the sexual tension.
The exception is when she’s craving for the kiss and practically nothing you do matters because she will guide you towards sex herself.
Or yes, if you read that slowly:
“Announcing it serves the same purpose as going for it and getting rejected. ”
Yes – announcing it serves the same purpose as getting rejected.
Get rid of that frame.
“Both are fine. Both can be good, actually.”
“They both serve the purpose of making sure she knows that this is not about friends or anything else.”
No. She’s there because she wants to fuck you already.
The idea that you have to convey that this is not about friendship, at this stage, means you’re going at it off frame. This is a girl you picked up, and she’s there to have sex with you. You having to create things to signal that this is not “friendship” actually drags in the barriers that were not there. So now she’ll have to push away and see where you’re standing.
When she pushes away you’ll probably think “aha! she would have rejected the kiss! I was right in verbalizing it first! now I’ll work uphill some more”
No wonder you get exhausted.
“Making sure she knows you won’t wait long for sex…”
You still dealing with rejection.
She came to see you because she wants to fuck you. She’s ready. Are you?
“If she sticks around after a failed kiss, or a verbally rejected one, she knows you’re going to escalate. That’s what this is all about for me.”
Rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection.
She came to you after you picked her up. Accept that fact.
“For shy/traditional girls, this has helped me move things along.”
You only have one technique and one frame and you use it and sometimes it works. Now get other frames and other techniques and compare and pick the most powerful one.
“Push it further every time, and if she keeps coming out, that’s her saying “yes.””
PUSH is the wrong frame. You’re pushing towards a barrier, arent you. Rejection.
When we talk about Push Pull, the PUSH is actually pushing her away, the PULL is pulling her into you. The push shows you dont give a fuck, which is a signal of high value, the PULL is getting her into your space, which is showing that you want her.
Instead, in your frame you PUSH when you WANT HER, so you push against a wall. One of your own making. With a girl who already wants you and can be TAKEN (PULLED).
“Someone could have taken this farther last night, I’m sure. ”
YOU could have, since she was there FOR YOU.
“But that girl was not ready to kiss me.”
“She was about 1/2 step behind me most of the night and I felt like I moved her along pretty well.”
“If she comes out w/ me again, she knows I’ll escalate. And I know she’s ready for it.”
If she doesnt is because you didnt escalate.
“You’re not wrong, man. ”
Im always right :-)
“Making sure she knows you won’t wait long for sex…”
You ARE waiting for sex, and even waiting to kiss her. Your actions let her know things. You are telling her that you are willing to go for a whole date and talk about sex and kisses but not make a move. Which means you’re afraid and you don’t have the balls she thought you had when you approached her. The bottom line is you are already past the barrier. This is a girl you opened and she said YES. Now act like a man that women say YES to, instead of a man women say NO to.
The reason you’re in this crux is that you’re doing daygame BECAUSE you’re the man women say NO to. So that’s your starting frame, you got this one doing numbers game after hitting hundreds of girls, you are experienced with the NO instead of with the YES. Then this one is saying YES and you’re still dealing with a NO. YES means YES! Go for it.
“Push it further every time, and if she keeps coming out, that’s her saying “yes.””
I just read the story with the THAI girl. Maybe this will serve as an example:
Imagine that we’re playing chess. The objective is to checkmate the King. As soon as you have a way to do checkmate, do the checkmate. – The alternative scenario is when you’re uber confident and intentionally delay the checkmate to toy with my feelings, like a cat. –
Now. This is a special scenario where the girl is trying to determine how good of a chess player you are. To evaluate you, she’ll offer little puzzles, little problems, and expect you to do checkmate or take valuable pieces and not fall in the traps.
When a girl likes you she’s rooting for you to do well. She wants you to win the game. She’ll also give you obvious problems and puzzles.
Every time you move at a slower pace, not take the pieces, not do checkmate, not move forward, you fail. She may give you a few more and guide you more. But every time you play it “safe” and not move forward, you’re showing the kind of chess player you are – one that doesnt take the prize when offered, one that doesnt win. The less of a good player you are, the less attracted she becomes, which makes her increase the difficulty of the puzzles.
Yes, the best player in the world gets the easiest puzzle, and the worst player in the world gets the hardest puzzle. It’s exponentially reversal.
So, let’s say you pick up a girl. She went out with you. Which means she likes you. Which means she’ll make it easy for you. Which means she expects you to do a move on her, kiss her, arouse her, entertain her, fuck her.
If you don’t do these things, then you’re “not the man she was expecting” and suddenly the rules change and the whole thing realigns, and you get harder puzzle, and less attraction.
This is like you started and she gave you a direct move to the checkmate. But you decided to use 5 moves aligning pawns, moving horse to one side of the board, and moving a tower back and forth. Then she moves the queen so you can eat it, but you cover your queen instead.
The result is that the girl experiences a mix of disappointment, rejection, boredom, frustration, and anxiety.
I get the feeling you’re too familiar with that mix.
The girl will try to stay in the game until it’s obvious you don’t either dont have a clue of what you’re doing, or have no intention to move and win. Depending on the setup one emotion will win, she will either feel rejected “he doesn’t like me” or disappointed “he’s no the man I thought he was”, frustrated “I wanted to be fucked, now I’ll better go home and masturbate, or call Mir Big Dick again”, etc. If she’s really into you she may bypass your whole ineptitude and take control, telling you what to do and how.
I get the feeling you’re very aware of that facet as well.
With the THAI girl – when she was sucking your neck you could have unbuttoned her shirt (she would have helped you), massage / finger her pussy, tell her to undress, fuck her in the kitchen. At the bare minimum. That’s the Queen / King exposed and offered for you to win the game, easiest level of difficulty. Provided to you and given on a plate like a champ.
Not moving forward and being safe doesnt make things easier, it makes them harder.
But at the same time you have to keep an eye on how you move forward. It’s not a “push”, it’s a pull. A pull as in, you tell her what to do and you set the frame and you do as you want with her. It’s not a blind push and its nor forcible. It’s not imposing. It’s assertive.
Btw your story reminded me of a girl that I started dating when I was just brand new into the PUA / Player thing. She was a beauty. Very young. She was 17 or 18 and I was 35. I felt guilty for wanting to fuck her and wanted to also protect her or something. She was at my apartment on our second date after having met on a dating site. We were watching a scary movie on my bed and she started rubbing herself on me like an animal. I put my hand or her pussy and she started sucking my neck and I grabbed a boob and then I calmed her down. I told her that I wasnt going to take advantage of her and that nothing was going to happen. So we chilled some but I was two fold, because now there was some thing awkward about it. Then she wanted to go home. I never saw her again.
I never made that mistake again.
>> She came to see you because she wants to fuck you. She’s ready. Are you?
Ahhhh… I like your attitude here, but I don’t think this is exactly how *all* women think. If I thought the way you do here, I think I’d do better with women… but I don’t happen to believe that.
I think women know right away if they *won’t* fuck you. I think she came out because I wasn’t a know, and she wanted to see what else was there. That’s actually how I think it is for women.
And then, you’re right, she gives you little puzzles. And if you do well, you can sex the girl, unless you fuck something up.
You have a very strong expectation that the girl will get fucked on the first date. I know it’s possible, that I could do that… sometimes.
I happen to believe you can/will lose some girls (a lot?) by trying to “pull” for sex too soon. I think 2-3 dates is super normal. I know you don’t like that, but I think that’s a reasonable timeline for sex.
I can, and have, had sex on the first date. Yes to that. But sex in 2-3 dates is not a factory of disappointment for the poor girl, nor is it crazy supplicating or weak. That’s my POV.
>> Yes, the best player in the world gets the easiest puzzle, and the worst player in the world gets the hardest puzzle. It’s exponentially reversal.
^ That is a really great way to say what you’re saying, Yohami.
About the verbals… Yohami.
Didn’t you talk to Riv about not kissing the girl before he gets her back to his place? Am I making that up? I think your POV was that he *should* makeout w/ a girl ASAP, out on the date, and then get her home.
This is how the verbal part works for me… talking sex is not, my fear of rejection. I love to talk about sex, in general, and especially with women. And my thoughts as you/I kick this around are… that that talk helps create some common ground, a shared vocabulary, and some sexual comfort, before she’s back at my place. I don’t think it lets off the pressure, I think it builds pressure… but also comfort and familiarity.
I am very much listening to you, and I need to test some new strategies.
I am listening… and thank you again for the time, man. Viva Yohami!
Maybe. I guess it can create tension if done in a flirty way. With the THAI girl it obviously turned her on. With this one from what I read (and filling the gaps) I guess it worked as a replacement from making a move.
” I think she came out because I wasn’t a know, and she wanted to see what else was there.”
That is exactly right. That’s right for every step and forever as long as you’re with a girl.
The only point where I’ve ever seen a girl think that a guy is a total YES FOREVER is when she’s not with that guy and that guy is fucking someone else. Once the guy is on reach the process resumes and all she has to give are puzzles. If she’s attracted the puzzles will be easy, but, they can be failed.
Having the attitude that she’s there to fuck you is Game 101. That means you have the value already, and having that as a starting point, having that status, permeates everything else.
If you dont have that as a starting point, that will also permeate everything else. And you’ll get a matching treatment.
Looking back, I was lucky in that I approached Game in the way that I did. I knew that girls would behave in a certain way with super high value men like Brad Pitt. Also knew that I could get away with pretty much anything as long as I acted natural, because girls follow your frame. So I adquired, fabricated, emulated the super high top value immediately and refused to do anything else – if I was in a social situation and I didnt see what I could do to convey that kind of value, I’d just not do anything at all. If I didn’t have relationships that conferred me that kind of value, I’d not have any relationships at all. I only grabbed top value roles, activities, approaches, frames, I was Brad Pitt acting like Brad Pitt. So when I failed it usually was because I progressed to a point where Brad Pitt would have done something different, for example, fuck the girl, but I hesitated. Or I’d start getting attached / jealous when a Brad Pitt would have moved on and fuck other girls. So I always had a contrast because I could SEE the frame. The girls I chased all my life were giving themselves freely to Brad Pitt. I wanted that, or nothing.
When I fucked that girl in the first date all was so natural and trick-less. I was just there, kissed her like it was the most normal thing in the world, then brought her home and fucked her. No big deal. I did that so many times. And to my shock a lot of the girls let me know after that I had lost some opportunities. A super hot girl that saw me singing and came to tell me that my voice was beautiful – I fucked her two dates after that. She told me I could have taken her to a room and fuck her when she came to talk to me, so I almost lost her by “waiting”. Of course after that I started fucking girls 15 minutes after meeting them. Because yes, all girls are like that, all girls are like that with BRAD PITT. They all open to the same key.
That idea that you push it forward every time and keep moving forward as long as you don’t hear resistance, and promising not to cross the line. That is embedded in the BETA frame because you’re progressing towards rejection. I wish I could make a hologram and point at it but words is all there is. The idea that there’s rejection at some point and that it is something you have to deal with belongs to the frame that is under women, where they are the judge and you perform to please. All it takes is that you adopt the frame that is above them, where you are the judge and they perform to please you, and that’s where the puzzle switches and becomes super easy, and they are the ones trying to please and not to be rejected, and they LOVE IT because THAT is what they are trying to get all the time. That’s the type of men they want. Whenever you switch to the other frame is a turn off.
So doing seduction from that other frame is such a bad idea. I remember back when that was my life and it’s such a heartache.