First Date with Miss Nature || Virgin Game
She just left. First virgin I’ve had in my apartment in the US, but one of several that I have dated. I did not have sex with her. But I have been predicting I will have sex with a virgin soon. Maybe this one. Maybe a different girl. We’ll see what the Daygame Gods have in store for this aspiring player.
From a previous post I wrote in December:
“She is a 25 year old virgin. A beautiful one. The second 25 year old virgin I have dated in 7 days. Wow. So many unfucked, hot Asian girls out there. How is this possible??”
That was December. Dating virgins feels much more common to me now. I am increasingly interested in learning more about Virgin Game.
The girl in this story, Miss Nature is Taiwanese. 21 years young.
I picked her up on Wednesday, while I was out with Pancake. I think he was surprised I went after her. She wasn’t the super “tough” looking one in the leather jacket, with the yellowing hickie on her neck. This was the bubbly little one that popped right open when I approached her.
She is studying fashion at that art school where every girl I like is in attendance. She was all smiles and friendliness from the start. I took her number… offering her WeChat (which made her eyes bug out that this white guy has WeChat on his phone), and then Line App (which she accepted).
As I walked back to Pancake, I said she is the kind of girl — the kind of reaction — I wish for every daygamer. She loved the approach. She was all sunshine as we talked. She was adorable, and I liked her, but she was also a great state-booster… made the whole thing seems so easy and natural. I told Pancake that I loved her not because she was especially beautiful or sexy (she isn’t, not really), but because she was so fresh and sweet and wonderful.
Great interaction. Yay for her. Yay for me.
Messaged her later that night. Got a warm reply and a “sticker” – an image that barely looks like a girl, cartooned, with double thumbs up. I am looking at it now. I suppose that is what counts as “enthusiasm” from a young girl like this one.
I replied the next day. Setting up a non-alcoholic drink date for us at this fancy hotel where I like to take girls… especially non-party girls. This hotel bar is very, very nice. And quiet. And comfortable. Even at peak hours on a Friday night. A great “non-bar” kind of bar for nice, conservative Chinese girls that don’t drink.
I am beginning to enjoy taking girls that don’t drink… out for drinks. Did it a bunch in Japan as well. And adult date… even if there are no adult beverages.
Two surprises about daygame girls… 1.) How many have BFs but will still fool around. And 2.) How many don’t drink. Not always the same girls… but plenty of both.
The date felt pretty solid. I had had a terrible day out daygaming that day, everything felt off… no leads… and I was having some flash-backs about getting stood up in Tokyo based on my down-state. I was feeling a bit insecure, but I still assumed this was on.
And it was… she showed up. I was a little early, and thought I saw her as I walked to the meeting spot, and I glanced at my phone and saw:
HER: I’m here
She was dressed well, but conservative. Long skirt, sweater, up to her neck. Warm coat and light scarf. Shiny red shoes. She was cute, I was fully into it. Yes. Here goes.
Walked her the block or so to the hotel bar. She didn’t ask where we were going, which I like… I think it’s a good sign when the girl isn’t pushing for details.
One thing I became convinced about in Japan was that I am very good at making strange girls comfortable. I felt myself going into that mode. We were chatting, and getting warmed up, as we walked.
The hotel bar. Drinks. She ordered a proper cocktail, or actually… I ordered for her. She sipped it a bit, maybe drank 1/3 of it. I had a whiskey. We sat on a comfortable couch, all by ourselves, the fancy hotel staff very attentive. Nice date.
Earlier in the night I had imagined I might take her for pizza after our drink, then try to bounce her home. Two hours into our little date, 10 PM, I asked if she was hungry. She was not. She went off to the bathroom, when she came back I asked if she wanted to come meet my cats…
I would have offered her cheesecake (and you know I had some ready), but she isn’t that into sweets. She makes a lot of comments about “natural” and “healthy.”
This is why we’re calling her Miss Nature. 21 year old Miss Nature. Does yoga every day. Avoids sugar. Healthy girl. Conservative. Friendly, but I’m not sure I’d call her an extrovert.
She asked me how old I was several times, which is unusual in my experience. I told her “much older than you.” She guessed “30? 40?,” right away. I think she is the first girl to ever guess 40. She even said “older than 40???” I smiled. I am 44 this month.
I told her what I often tell girls: “if we ever have sex, I’ll tell you how old I am… until then, it doesn’t matter.” She accepted that. Who knows why? It doesn’t make any sense to me, but I say it to girls all the time and they always buy it.
I used this moment as an excuse to have my Vampire Talk with her. It went over pretty well. Me telling her that she can give me a POV of youth I cannot find without her. Her telling me she know I can teach her things. Nice. I really do love the vampiric exchange as a metaphor for good-younger-tender girls and evil-older-wiser dudes.
So I return to the question, “you ready to meet my cats?” And she is a yes. Hmmm. She’s coming home with me. Cool.
A brief train ride. We walk past the gay clubs in my neighborhood. Up to my door and inside. She is looking very comfortable.
She has only hung out with cats once before. She says she is afraid of them, but as you know if you read my posts, my cats are awesome and all the girls love them. Sometimes more than they love me. Which is cool… as long as the girls come over, I don’t care why they come. The Taiwanese Girl — not this one, but my first lay from daygame — used to say that she was just using me for my cats. Which was also fine with me. I would say, “you can use me for my cats and I’ll use you for your ass.” And she would laugh.
A little tour of the house. Hanging out in the kitchen. And I tried to kiss her. She turned her head. She took her shoes off at the door, but was still in her coat and scarf. With her little, pink, leather handbag around her neck.
She was having a great time, smiling. Surprisingly comfortable. But not letting me get anywhere. I was trying.
I tried several times to kiss her. I had already given her my talk about how my job as a man is 1.) To make her comfortable and 2.) To excite her. So I was demonstrating that back/forth, all night.
We talked about trust. I asked why she trusted me enough to come home with me. She said she thought I would respect her. This girl knows I am at least close to 40, but came back to my place on the first date. I love it. Yohami would say she was expecting sex…. seems logical to me. I asked if she knew I would try to kiss her, and she said she didn’t know… and she smiled again.
Earlier when I tried to kiss her, and she was refusing me yet again, I asked if she wasn’t ready or is she was nervous about her performance. She said both. She said she has very little experience with kissing…
I also know from earlier in the night that she hasn’t had a BF in 2-3 years. Not since she lived in Taiwan. She told me on the date she has never spent the night with a man. I had a feeling she was a virgin… I asked. She confirmed.
I have been curious about virgins and the likelihood of me fucking one in the near term. I have dated several in the last six months, that I know of, and have not gotten very far with any of them. I have mentioned this facet of my experience in game quite a bit on this blog.
It is a strange feeling, knowing it is bound to happen.
I know it. It’s a forgone conclusion for me… it’s just a matter of when. I can already imagine the post I’ll write when it happens… and how I’ll link back to this one, and say, “see, I told you.” Strange.
And it’s also an odd coincidence in my life right now is that I am reading Krauser’s Adventure Sex, and very soon after this date, with all my questions about “Virgin Game,” I came across this:
Chapter Twenty-Five: Virgin Islands
— Adventure Sex, pg 304
I had this date with Miss Nature on Friday night. On Sunday night I was having dinner at an Indian place I love, drink a big IPA, and reading Krauer’s book. I came across this chapter. Coincidence. But I was very happy to see all this, as I am quite ready for virgin stories right now.
“The little blonde twenty-two year old… Sofija was a virgin… I suspect my North American readers are wondering how that’s even possible for a twenty-two year old girl. Europe really is different.”
This story is about Krauser getting his hooks Sofija from Belgrade, Serbia. I like Asian girls. K, famously, likes eastern Europe girls. To each his own. But very similar patterns, if you’re proper poon hound like so many of us are.
Miss Nature is 21, but the point still stands. In general, I think Krauser is correct about the experiences of most Westerners. As I am almost exclusively into Asian girls — mostly from Asia — and young ones, I am not at all surprised about meeting virgins over 20 at this point. Of the ones I’ve dated, only two have been 19, the rest are over 20. In Dec, Miss Taiyuan virgin was 25. I think this is more common in Chinese girls than white girls, but I also think daygame is a great way to find virgins, even if finding them is accidental. I do not think it is a coincidence that there are so many virgins to be found via street approach. Other than “college game,” I think the virgin factor is a phenomenon particular to daygame.
In Japan, I bet I approached several. I dated at least two. I know the Chinese Girl in Japan was a virgin… she is the one I got the farthest with so far… in my bed, on two separate occasions, nipples out, but never got her pants off. I am very surprised I didn’t fuck that girl. She was 26. And then there are was the insta-date with the 19 year old virgin at Starbucks… damn she was so cute. Jesus.
I keep howling about it… I am close to getting my “virgin badge.” But so far… not yet.
Back to this date…
Now it’s midnight. We’re still at my place. After some time in the kitchen, and several rejected kiss attempts, I tell her she can leave anytime she wants, but I want her to come lay down with me. She smiles and shakes her head. I tell her “I’m not saying we’re going to have sex, but you never know.” She says she knows what I want. I tell her I am dangerous, and that I will never lie about that. She smiles. I lead. I hand her my Bluetooth speaker, and I take the laptop, and we head down the hall.
I set down the computer and take the speaker from her… but she stops at the entry of my bedroom, and literally hugs the doorjam. Like… fucking hugs the doorjam. Like my doorway is a teddy bear for virgin Tiawanese girls that might otherwise get some cock for the first time.
She won’t come to the bed. She won’t let me take off her coat or scarf. She still won’t kiss me.
So I work my mouth around to her neck and her unpierced ears. She even makes that difficult, but I get some time with her neck and those earlobes. Delicious. She has her very cute face pressed up against the wall, her nose actually touching the paint on the wall above my light switch.
Full defense, huge smile. She stays like that as I molest her. She will not let me even take her scarf off.
I am still talking, and sucking her ears, the whole time. This goes on for 15 minutes maybe.
Two days later, on Sunday, in Krauser’s book, I read this…
“Five minutes or so passed with me sitting on the edge of the bed talk to her a she stood half-in-half-out of the doorway.”
Okay. So here is Krauser sharing a story that is nearly identical, and identically weird, about a girl that is so literally “at the threshold” of sex that she literally won’t cross the threshold into my room. Krauser and I have had the same experience.
“She was terrified and excited, not sure which was her dominant emotion.”
Something like that.
I told her over and over that she could leave anytime she wanted… it was getting late, and she had not made that move.
This is a beautiful adventure for a girl like this… she is unsure, and inexperienced, and won’t let me just take her along to sex. But she is having a great time, and despite clear and consistent escalation from me, she doesn’t want to leave.
I had been talking with her about masculinity, and leadership, and a “man’s job” all night. So now I tell her that I want to lead her. That I want to give us a plan. I say this to her. That it’s after 1 AM now, and I want her to spend the night. I told her I was not offering her sex. That it might happen, but that was not the offer. That I was giving her the opportunity to spend the night with me. To have that experience. That I thought she would enjoy it, and I wanted her to stay with me.
As I said all this, she backed herself into a corner of my room, into the space where my cabinet meets the wall. I was sitting on bed, just looking at her. She was the picture of nervousness, chastity and temptation. She was close to me, maybe a two or three feet away, I told her she looked so adorable. She really did. She was also as far away as she could be from me, while still being in the same room… very, very much like Krauser’s story.
Then back to our dance at the doorjam as I stood up. Like she was ready to leave, but instead she would hug the doorjam. In full defense. Not letting me kiss her. Making it hard to get my lips on her neck/ears. Anytime my hands would go down to touch her body, she would immediately pull them up. But mostly she kept her arms tight across her body.
More smiling. I have never seen a girl do anything like this.
“‘I couldn’t let myself have sex with you,’ she said. ‘You need to force me.'”
— A different girl from Krauser’s book
I want to be extremely clear here: It is not okay to force girls into sex, not under any circumstances. I have never done it and never will.
With that said, the line that Krauser is quoting there is not about the girl actually asking to be forced to do anything. It’s about how far you’re willing to go as you lead. That is what I take from it. The girl from that quote is really saying, “I needed you to lead in an incredibly strong and dominant way before I’ll surrender.” I get that. I think that is the key for many girls.
How far was I willing to go with this one?
I think about my last night with Jafrica in Japan. The lowpoint of my trip. The lowpoint of my time as a player. I did not fuck that girl, but I pushed her too far. Nothing immoral, certainly nothing criminal, but she didn’t have a good experience — which is my standard. I didn’t want to repeat that. I am not in game to give anyone a bad experience. Including myself.
As the night came to an end, I ran my hands through Miss Nature’s hair. She showed tiny signs of relaxing, but barely. I told her I am happy to be rough with her, but tonight was about making sure she knew she could trust me. I would periodically pull a big fistful of her hair back, semi-rough, get her head out of defense so I could taste her neck, but mostly I kept the molestation relatively cool.
Eventually I asked how she was doing and she said she was tired and really wanted to go home. I had told her 100 times she could leave any time she wanted. She seemed real about it now. She seemed ready.
So I called this little girl an Uber. I told her she could change her mind and stay, or press the “confirm” button and the car would come. I held the phone out and she pressed the button.
I walked her downstairs. I told her to kiss my check and she wouldn’t do it.
“Some virgins I’d known… were adventurous girls who had just never quite got round to having sex yet.”
I don’t know that much about virgins. I haven’t fucked a virgin in over 23 years… the only one of my life. Is this one adventurous and about to drop the resistance? I don’t know. Is she ready, but I’m not the right guy? Maybe. Or maybe the age difference is too great for me to be her first? Who knows.
My guess is she is very, very inexperienced. The lack of kissing is a sign of that. She has the experience of a somewhat shy 16 year old, in a 21 year old’s body, late at night in a 44 year old man’s apartment. Wild.
I don’t know that she’ll see me again. Or that I have any chance of fucking her. I know I got closer than most guys have ever gotten with that little girl. I will take her through her first proper sexual experience, if I can get her to surrender.
I really did have a great time with this girl. A fantastic, unusual, interesting experience. I loved it.
But I also told her as we did the bizarre doorjam dance that “this is fun, I am really enjoying you, it’s weird, but fun, but I will not do this for multiple nights… too frustrating.” And I meant it. As I got back from Japan, I never called The Thai Girl. I got sick of her endless resistance. It’s boring, and weird, and frustrating.
I am not ONLY about sex, but I am ALSO about sex.
Sex is not the culmination of dating, it’s part of dating. Like the middle part. Often the first date, as we know. If a girl will never let it happen… she’s a fucking weirdo. I’m not mad at those girls… but I have enough experience to know that. And I don’t need to indulge her neuroses endlessly.
In terms of my greater understanding of “Virgin Game,” Krauser left me two more clues in this book:
“She was my second virgin of the year, my third confirmed-virgin in the Game.”
“I’ve fucked four other virgins since I got into game and none of them gave me such drama.”
Those are separate quotes from Krauser’s most recently stories. I bet he has fucked another virgin or so since then, but these are good notes for me. The Big K has fucked five virgins in travels and at home. That’s not that many, but that is enough to know that yes… this is a reasonable expectation for me. And yes, there will likely be more.
Virgin Game. Worth learning more about.
For now… I would love to see this girl again. I really enjoyed her. She has a wonderful smell… not perfume or hair product, just her natural allure. Even her breath… I could taste it as we talked and it made me want her. She has a beautiful mouth, a great smile, and seriously kissable lips. I’m into it… and it looks like I have a fighting chance of deflowering her.
But it’s true. No fucking way I can do the doorjam dance much more. Novel this time. Frustration hell if it happens again. Too weird.
She sent me confirmation Line message as she got home. I sent her a reply saying I had a great experience with her, and that I had her smell all over my hands.
HER: The smell also came from natural haha
She has since sent me another message as I type out this report… I’ll look at it tomorrow.
Maybe I’ll fuck a sweet, little 21 year old virgin. Maybe I’ll be consumed by frustration and get sick of her… like the Thai Girl. Thai girl was very hot… but I had her in my bed 5 goddamn times and could never get her panties off. I don’t want to do that again.
Anyway… this is my first date beside The Siren since I’ve been back. Perhaps she will part of the next Tornado. Perhaps she’ll be a daygame notch.
Her or another sweet girl of her like… a virgin will ride this cock soon enough. I’m not aiming for it… but the stats show… it’s just a matter of time.
Older Virgins are very hard to bed. Anyone who says differently is full of crap.
I have been exactly where you were with Miss Nature multiple times. The way I take this scared kitty act is like this – She wants to be with you, she likes you but sex is off the table completely. Oh and since she likes you she does not want to offend you by her inexperience. This is why you see this timid kitty act. They literally don’t know how to draw the line to say where they can bail out at.
No one in their past may have felt them up, kissed them, french kissed them… and on and on. All those boundaries that girls in the west seem to scope out by 16 don’t exist for conservative eastern girls. They really don’t know how to act. AND it’s so awkward because most men/boys in her past never ever escalated at all! Yes never escalated!
First rule of virgin club is to scale back your expectations. A kiss is really a milestone. A good make out session is a milestone. And getting her completely naked in your bed and skin to skin cuddles is a monumental big deal.
Second rule of virgin club – Have patience or cut your losses now. On average I would say a virgin seduction takes 9 months. My last virgin was 2 years (yes I was dating others but still). I personally don’t mind a virgin if I have plates around. But I typically have less patience and force it if I don’t have an outlet.
Forcing and rushing a virgin is a sure sign of getting blown out of the relationship AND teeing her up for the next Cad to quickly take her Vcard on rebound courtesy of all your good warming up.
Third rule of virgin club – It is in your interest to determine how good a lover your virgin will be once you close the deal. With a seduction that may take months you have to determine eventual passion level you will get as she gets more physical with you. There are points in the physical interaction that I look for to see what I have. Kissing and passion is one. When I do the first beast play I find out how much she moans the loudness of moaning corresponds to eventual carnal bliss. Then how easily she is to get aroused and wet is a waypoint. At each waypoint I want to see how much she touches and tries to please me. And frankly now if I’m not feeling much spark from her I bail pretty hard on the starfish types. I don’t bother explaining either, waste of time. Have some other dude take the hit for starfish sex.
Couple of other miscellaneous items – they fear pregnancy and don’t really understand ovulation and fertility cycles. Asians will mention how they fear the size of a western mans equipment. It’s really not a physical problem unless you are yuge but at the moment of attack realize that if there is pain she may bail due to that fear. Asian girls do not understand their bodies very well at all. I can’t put my finger on it but in general every Asian virgin I’ve dealt with is very surprised by the sensations I generate. Sensations that many women would relish freak an Asian virgin out of her mind. Good Luck
Ang… thank you very much for these comments, man. I didn’t realize it, but you commented on this blog before. And a lot of what you said there was very good POV as well.
>> I have been exactly where you were with Miss Nature multiple times
I believe you, and I want to hear from guys with your experience. This is exactly what I want to learn right now… “Virgin Game” is coming up over and over in my life right now.
>> She wants to be with you, she likes you but sex is off the table completely
My question here is… if she’s “young and naive,” how can she even know what is/isn’t “on the table.” We think she has not had sex before… so anything that happens to her in this rhelm will be a surprise **to her.** Right?
I’m not saying she has no opinion… I just assume her POV is flexible. It’s a blank slate, in many ways.
>> Oh and since she likes you she does not want to offend you by her inexperience.
I think this is exactly right. I mentioned that she was part defense, part worried about her performance… even in the kiss. I can imagine that she realizes that I am no virgin, and how “under-educated” she is vs what she thinks I know.
I think she does like me… we have another date for tonight, I just booked it.
>> They literally don’t know how to draw the line to say where they can bail out at.
I think one thing a player can do… and this is counter-intuitive… is help the girl say no, or leave, or to stop. Teach her how… mostly as a way to make her comfortable. That’s obviously not the goal… but she will realize you’re not a “bad guy,” if you teach her how to do what she needs to do.
It’s also a chance to be “masculine/leader” in her eyes. “Daddy game.”
>> No one in their past may have felt them up, kissed them, french kissed them… and on and on. All those boundaries that girls in the west seem to scope out by 16 don’t exist for conservative eastern girls
>> AND it’s so awkward because most men/boys in her past never ever escalated at all! Yes never escalated!
We argued about this a little before… but I am more with you this time. You were saying Japanese girls were very conservative… I had sex with three in 6 weeks, and several more close calls, but in some ways, I think this is still very good advice.
Some Eastern girls ARE more conservative. I think China more than Japan, actually.
In general, I think “all girls are the same.” But there are sub-classes. And the subclass “conservative” is real… even in Western Girls.
That includes simple, non-aggressive, “conservative” boys/men that have hit on these girls. That is a real subclass too… and that can set them up to be surprised by a player.
>> First rule of virgin club is to scale back your expectations. A kiss is really a milestone.
Okay. I hear you. I quoted Stealth below that some Virgins are looking to give it away… but many will as you describe here.
>> Second rule of virgin club – Have patience or cut your losses now.
Really good comments here.
I am thinking about several girls in the past that I felt weren’t moving fast enough… I think they might have been virgins, and/or maybe had sex 1X before…
I am thinking Thai girl might have been a virgin. She told me she was not, and she liked me, went out with me like 7 times, in my bed over and over… but would never let me take her panties off. I cut my losses there.
But I am learning from all this.
>> I personally don’t mind a virgin if I have plates around.
Yeah. Good POV. I mostly feel the same.
>> Third rule of virgin club – It is in your interest to determine how good a lover your virgin will be once you close the deal.
Really great comments in this section.
>> I bail pretty hard on the starfish types.
The first Taiwanese girl I had sex with, my first daygame lay, was full starfish. I was still very turned on, and came faster with that girl than any girl in my life… who knows why.
She wouldn’t even look me in the eyes during sex. And she would “shut off” mid sex, sometimes, almost act bored… and then “snap” back into it.
But each time we had sex, she was more and more “there.” More involved. Started trying to tempt me more. Baiting me into having sex with her one more time before we’d split up the next morning…
She was not a virgin… but it took a while to warm her up. Similar concept here.
>> Asian girls do not understand their bodies very well at all. I can’t put my finger on it but in general every Asian virgin I’ve dealt with is very surprised by the sensations I generate. Sensations that many women would relish freak an Asian virgin out of her mind
Okay. I think you’re right. I want to keep this in mind.
I have taught a lot of girls things sexually (Siren had her first blowjob-to-orgasm with me last week, and she is 28)… but I may have even more to do with these girls.
>> Good Luck
Really excellent comments, man. I think you have some real experience to share. Thank you.
I whitelisted you for this blog, Ang… your comments are “auto-approved” going fwd. Thanks again.
“teeing her up for the next Cad to quickly take her Vcard”
Yes, thank you.
I dug thru an old post to pull out some good comments on Virgin Game so I could have it all in one place.
BELOW are some notes from StealthPUA and Yohami on Virgins I want to add to this conversation…
>> I also banged 9 virgins, most of which were an SNL or a D2.
>> Yup! Here are my stats for the virgins:
>> x2 SNL’s
>> x4 D2’s
>> x3 D3’s
>> x1 D5
>> I come from the frame “sex is NO BIG DEAL for a woman” and at least try to apply it equally to virgins and non-virgins because TBH they weren’t that difficult to bang. A lot of them I interviewed after the sex admitted to me, “I wanted to lose it/I wanted to try”.
>> Something very interesting is, out of the 9 virgins I banged, only 2~3 of them were extremely invested because I took their virginity. I think the rest took it as light as having coffee with me.
>> Another interesting finding is, I wanted to Reg x2 of the virgins I banged. But I failed to do so and I never saw them again. So now together with the frame: “sex is NO BIG DEAL for a woman”, but I also added another assumption: “losing her virginity is NO BIG DEAL to a woman”. LOL
>> Stealth, yeah it truly means nothing to most of them. The less it matters to you the more you’re the kind of man they will want to give it to, sex, virginity, everything. This is compete LOL when viewed from the male pov where sex is the big deal and the virgin is the holy grail. But for them, all of them are born virgin so it’s common place, and the prettier girls are fucked by the most valuable men early, so virginity means they are not as wanted, they want to get rid of it and move up. The older they get the more of an issue it becomes.
>>And when a man values sex / virginity it means he’s scarce and cannot get these on command.
>> I like how you summarized it, especially – “virginity means they are not wanted” – more the reason they are dtf to bang! Younger chicks are also experimental hence also the fair number of switch hits and spit roasts I often get to enjoy in Tokyo hehe
“but I had her in my bed 5 goddamn times and could never get her panties off. I don’t want to do that again.”
There’s a lot going on here. If you stop being willing to push against a resisting girl (which means acting before time, therefore making her push the breaks and take control), and instead tease and then double down when she’s aroused (which means she never pushes the breaks, and you have control) you’ll likely stop experiencing this stuff, for two reasons.
“don’t want to do that again.”
First, the man who doesn’t want to wait will filter these girls out, so you’d likely have had spent the afternoon with a more willing girl.
Second, read above – that is the kind of man who is very attractive to women, and would make an inexperienced girl want to let go of control and spend the afternoon with.
So by not being the kind of man who pushes against walls and is willing to spend an afternoon pushing for sex but not getting it – you act like a kind of man who is attractive and has these same girls offering no resistance and willing to give sex to.
Or, your willingness to filter her out will arouse her and make her want to give you pussy.
While your willingness to work for nothing will not arouse her and maker her want to raise walls.
One is top guy, the other is bottom guy.
“could never get her panties off.”
Did you tell her to get naked?
>> instead tease and then double down when she’s aroused (which means she never pushes the breaks, and you have control) you’ll likely stop experiencing this stuff, for two reasons.
This is Thai Girl we’re talking about… and to be honest, I never once saw that girl aroused. We made out. I sucked on her nipples. She sucked my cock. Never once saw anything like arousal from her.
We can assume that is entirely my lack of skill. But I don’t buy that, because every other women I get into that territory with shows arousal… even if she doesn’t want to fuck.
For your reference… the thing I saw in her eyes, was an alert intensity. Out of nowhere, that would flash into her eyes as I made more serious advances.
She would go from being flighty and bubbly and silly, and then as sex got hard to avoid, she would get a distant seriousness in her face. Like her IQ would go up 50 points for a few seconds when she ran defense, like she was a different person, and then, it would calm down… get softer and goofier, and I’d kiss her good night and send her home after a a 1/2 hour of this or so.
Even the kissing with this girl… it was easy to kiss her. It felt good on the surface. Great mouth, very pretty girl, she would be energetic about it, but never really engaged at the level of real sexuality.
I am wondering if she was actually a virgin, and/or had noticeably odd hangups about sex. She was very clear she was not a virgin, but kept claiming Thai culture was keeping her from having sex. She would say “next time.” And she would come over again. But always that distant, mysterious unwillingness and never any passion.
Once when she was sick, she was passionate about wanting me to know she really wanted to see me, and made a big deal about coming out to see me, when she wasn’t going out for anyone or anything, even skipping school… I think that’s the only sign of passion I ever saw in that girl.
Yes to your greater point… by Thai Girl was special. Never seen anything like that. I don’t miss her.
>> First, the man who doesn’t want to wait will filter these girls out, so you’d likely have had spent the afternoon with a more willing girl.
This is how a man of abundance talks. This is a bit zen.
As I am a man of “somewhat” abundance, this is how I translate this:
— She “wants to wait” or whatever, and that frustrates me
— Sex is a normal part of getting to know a girl, and it’s odd to me when a girl is blocking that
— So I stop seeing her… end of story
— If I have other girls, great… but often I do not
— So I go run more daygame, and meet new girls, start the fuck over
— Next time I am in bed, it’s with one of the new leads…
— If I see a pattern of resistance, I’m doing many things wrong
— If I do not see a pattern of resistance, I’m probably doing some things wrong… but I’m doing okay
— Keep learning, keep looking, keep growing
>> Or, your willingness to filter her out will arouse her and make her want to give you pussy.
In my experience, this is confusing to beginner/advanced guys. This is what makes us fake alphaness to get the girl to chase. As a bluff. As a tactic.
I think the girl that will take “your willingness to filter her out will arouse her and make her want to give you pussy,” that girl never put up any real resistance in the first place. She could tell you would never put up with any extended puzzles or BS, so she never put up any puzzles/BS.
And the reason she can tell, is that you have a lot of experience, and a lot of success, and it shows in your eyes… from that first look you gave her… so the test never happens.
I think so many of us want the right chess move to get her to behave differently… and that’s not how it works.
How it starts is how it goes. We don’t really turn problems into good things. They start good, with the first look we give her… and go well the whole time.
That’s mostly true.
You next the girl, not as a move, not as a bluff… but you really ditch her. Or ditch the problem you created. And then you go work on yourself… getting your life together and getting more facetime in with new girls. Starting the next “relationship” without the weakness in your game that brought on the trouble in the last one.
As you’re better… she see’s your strength right away, she works for it, and there’s nothing to fix.
Here’s the thing for you to look at
“I had told her 100 times she could leave any time she wanted.”
The question is why? what made you say that.
>> “I had told her 100 times she could leave any time she wanted.”
>> The question is why? what made you say that.
Hmmm. Part of me likes this. I like it, as it deals with all the “mainstream culture” stuff. “Are you comfortable?” “You know where the door is, right?” “You can leave anytime you want, of course.” “You know how to call yourself a car, right?”
You can *wink* at her when you say all this… but this is basic legal courtesy. I don’t do this every time, nor with every girl. But with timid girls, brand new girls, any hint of craziness, I make it very clear.
I have never been as aggressive as I am now. I like it. It’s good for me and the girls are responding very well. I am also more calibrated now than I ever have been before. But with that increased aggressiveness comes a little more responsibility. That’s how I see it.
All of that means I did my job ensuring her basic safety and complying with legal requirements.
From there… I can swing my dick. She has everything she needs to be on “equal footing.”
“I got up and walked to the bathroom. That’s always my go-to move if I’m really not sure if a girl wants sex. It gives her the chance to sit up and reorganize herself, or even run out the door if she’s that bothered.”
Similar concept. And I think that is smart.
I didn’t actually say it 100 times. More like 3-4 times. But I was very obvious and clear. And for me, this means her basic safety and potential for fear have been addressed. Case closed. So now… she can be nervous, but her basic safety and willingness are covered.
Let me ask a better question. When you’re telling her that she can go, and you repeat that framing 3-4 times, is she getting aroused?
Or, are you trying to arouse her, or give her comfort? which is it, and why
Here’s what I read of the interaction.
You’re moving on her which may make her uncomfortable so you want to balance things out by giving her a way out. Is that reading correct?
When you’re moving to her – are you pushing towards her, or pulling her into you?
>> When you’re telling her that she can go, and you repeat that framing 3-4 times, is she getting aroused?
>> Or, are you trying to arouse her, or give her comfort? which is it, and why
No, that is not an arousal technique.
Yes, it is about comfort. Not “bonding” kind of comfort. Basic legal consideration. It can have a positive affect, of her seeing me in the larger context of being able to take care of her… but this is a basic requirement. One I want to move past. Not sexy stuff.
When I took the Idol to a drink in Japan, she was easy to get back home, but very hard to talk the 2 blocks from where we met that night to the place for a drink. She was really concerned… it wasn’t me. I was comfortable and my plan was safe/simple. It was just her basic survival instinct.
I showed her on my phone where I was taking her. I showed her the route on the map of how we would walk 2 blocks to get there. She checked on her own phone, so she could read it all in Japanese. I made a big show of how public the whole walk was… and then started to tease her about it a bit.
When we got there, I said, “See? You feel safe? You want to go? You can leave???” and I backed away from her like she was dangerous, made my eyes really big… at that point I was clowning her, and she grabbed my arm and she laughed and we walked inside.
So that was similar stuff… but at the same point in the relationship. In that case she was showing real concern, maybe fear… who knows why. This was after she showed up, on her own, to starbuck… survival instinct kicked in for a 3 minutes.
It basic survival comfort I gave her. With the idol, as I teased her… I was doing a bit of attractions at the same time, but none of it was about arousal.
With this girl, she was very nervous, but never showed any fear or real concern. But as she had very little experience, I was happy to make her escape route explicit. That’s fine with me.
“You see the door? You know how to get out???”
And then smile and go back to touching her and enjoying ourselves.
The girl who just saw you and is moving into an unknown destination is a different setup of a girl in your apartment. Backing away signals that you’re not a chaser. Write that down. It’s not because you’re not dangerous – it’s because you’re not a chaser. The part that works from giving her a way out is that it shows that you don’t care, you’re not invested, she’s not the prey, you don’t chase.
This is congruent with top guy.
This is not “about comfort”. The only point when this works is when you signal that you’re not a desperate man trying to get laid and will use force. Aka, you’re not a bottom guy.
When she’s at your apartment is a different story. She’s there be because she wants what you have to offer, and she’s in the process of screening that.
The framework where you think that offering a way out is “comfort” is one where you are making advances that are not preceded by her arousal – she’s not going to say yes, so you give her a safe out in case she gets too triggered by you. This is bottom guy. This is pushing against rejection, and giving her the power to stop you, or run away.
What this ignores is what girls want. The girl is not a passive thing that you conquer. The girl is a hungry beast. Instead of pushing when she’s not ready and giving her a way out, move when she’s going to say yes and use her hunger for you and give her what she wants.
This stuff is super obvious but gets lost in translation.
Figure that you have a huge collection of art and you’re displaying them to her. At any point it is required that you verbalize “are you bored? you can leave”, and repeating that doesn’t create comfort, it creates dissonance with what should happen:
Display piece after piece of art and when she likes something, give her more pieces of art like the one she liked, then shuffle some more, find what she responds to, and give her more of that.
She’s not there because she wants a way out – so offering it / repeatedly doesnt make any sense. Offer your dick instead, that’s what she’s there for. But she has to want it first. The way to find how / when she wants it is all the courtship and push pull that precedes it, aka flirting, talking, kino, etc.
Imagine that you’re fucking a girl and she keeps telling you that you can leave if you want. What does it do to your mood?
>> The part that works from giving her a way out is that it shows that you don’t care, you’re not invested, she’s not the prey, you don’t chase.
>> This is congruent with top guy.
okay, I like this.
>> When she’s at your apartment is a different story. She’s there be because she wants what you have to offer, and she’s in the process of screening that.
Yes. I mostly agree. There is still a legal burden on men in this situation. I’d like to clear it as I have more women in my life. It’s wise.
I think what I’m learning here is that I can do it once, or twice, but don’t need to repeat it. That seems like a good correction. Thanks for that.
>> “are you bored? you can leave”, and repeating that doesn’t create comfort, it creates dissonance with what should happen:
>> Imagine that you’re fucking a girl and she keeps telling you that you can leave if you want. What does it do to your mood?
Yeah. This is right and I’m learning from this.
In her case, she had her arms tight across her chest, and her shoulders up to her ears… full fucking defense… so I would offer her a way out, not as my move, but as my reaction to her display.
But doing this over… thinking about what you’re saying about not creating resistance, I could keep backing up. Trying something else, less of that kind of escalation, as I am getting that kind of display. Try moving her around.
I am trying to connect the dots between “your dick instead, that’s what she’s there for” and what she is like standing there, looking nervous, coat on, big smile, but all defense.
The truth is, I think she is there “for something,” but doesn’t know what. Sex, sure, maybe, but it’s this vague thing until it isn’t. And as it gets late, if she isn’t melting into it… if she isn’t showing signs of compliance, I will make a move. Or several. And girls that are ready ramp up from there.
When they don’t get aroused at that point, and they don’t leave… we’re in this weird gray area… which I think is “inexperience.” Or LSE. Or neuroses. I am happy to play along for bit in those situations, and I think skill matters, but these are the ones where it might get awk.
In my case, I would do most of what I did the same… but I would NOT repeat the “safety” bits as often, and not late into the night.
>> making advances that are not preceded by her arousal
I don’t know. How about this… what if I’m not quite calibrated to what her arousal looks like. This isn’t how I feel I am, but maybe this is true. That I can only see massive GREEN lights, and miss more subtle ones…
In general, you know I 100% agree that we proceed when we see she is liking how we swing our dick. But when it’s not clear… part of swinging our dick is about escalating.
>> Offer your dick instead, that’s what she’s there for. But she has to want it first. The way to find how / when she wants it is all the courtship and push pull that precedes it, aka flirting, talking, kino, etc.
And some of this is semantics. We’re saying the same thing.
>> she has to want it first. The way to find how / when she wants it is all the courtship and push pull that precedes it, aka flirting, talking, kino, etc.
This is what I call “escalation” which is very close to “swinging my dick,” almost the same thing. Escalation is almost all sexual, whereas swinging my dick could be me being cocky.
In these situations, I am doing a mix of flirting/talking/kino.
With the Virgin… at the very end, right before she left, around 1:30 AM, at the doorjam again, I was running my fingers through her hair, and I was getting a sensual response. Up until then, all I got was defense and smiles at the same time.
If I start over with her… I will do more of the hair thing.
BTW… I took this girl out again last week. I was pretty sick, but wanted to spend some more time in comfort. So I took her to eat, we talked, kino over dinner, shared a cab home. I got out, we hugged, I kissed the side of her head and sent her off…
That whole date was just for comfort and familiarity.
I think a 3rd date is highly likely, and maybe I’ll try to take her home again… we’ll see.
Aight. It doesnt let me reply the other comment
“In her case, she had her arms tight across her chest, and her shoulders up to her ears… full fucking defense… ”
Yes, that’s a wall, so something happened for her to create that wall, likely you moved in before she was ready for it, so she had to raise defenses, now her mind and feelings are focused on defending and putting and keeping barriers, which is what they do to bottom guys, so whatever happened set you in the wrong framing.
“so I would offer her a way out, not as my move, but as my reaction to her display.”
And her display is a reaction to something previous
“But doing this over… thinking about what you’re saying about not creating resistance, I could keep backing up. Trying something else, less of that kind of escalation, as I am getting that kind of display. Try moving her around.”
This is why I ask is you’re pulling or pushing. The power of the “come here” is that she is the one walking the steps towards you, so she can regulate her own speed and make up her own mind as you tell her what to do – as opposed to you acting on her, “pushing”, which makes her passive and gives the role of a judge who will decide when it’s enough.
If you act from the “come here” higher position, she still has the option to not go there, to do something else, to leave, it’s always her choice. But it’s never “Im gonna keep pushing and you tell me where to stop” (bottom guy), but “Im having a party here, come” and if she doesn’t that’s her problem (top guy).
Check that “coaching of penguin” pdf I sent, there are lots of examples of it and I explain each line to the guy, what the girls may respond, and what would be the comeback, and why. There’s zero pressure put in the girls, there’s nothing they could defend against – so they also have no defense for the arousal that they feel. The only pressure comes when standing up by your frame, there are a few iterations of that too. Pressure in the frames clash, but not pressure to get what you want from her.
Some more insight. The nature of girls is to make you do things. They are passive but they become active by controlling what everyone else does. When interacting with men, during the sexual courtship they regulate this by letting the man do things, and prompting him to do things. And they cant stop themselves.
The same girl that is covering her whole body as a defense, will be offering herself frontally exposed when she wants the man to take action on her. These girls sitting on your lap on the pubs wanted you to take action. Girls standing in front of you with a smile want you to take action. Girls rubbing boobs or body parts want your sexual attention. Girls punching you on the arm want to escalate physically, want more touch, etc. When they want these things, then “you deliver what they want”. Do any of these same things when they are not wanting them, and they will inevitably raise walls and further attempts to do the same will be increasingly more resisted.
To fuck a woman you dont ‘tear down her defenses with sexual pressure and game’
The woman will signal when she’s ready and when there’s no resistance.
A lot of the time my perception is that you’re blind to this – you confirmed that saying that you don’t know when a girl is aroused. My interpretation is that the life spent being bottom guy reframed reality and makes you see that girls have one face and it’s rejection, aka a wall, and that to get to the girl you must push against that wall and conquer. That’s the framework most men have, and it’s integral part of game, still permeates a lot of RSD (probably they need that to cater to their audiences, which is the bottom men trying to get laid).
But the reality is that there’s no wall – there’s no wall when she wants it. The wall is only there when you’re not attractive. If you’re attractive girls chase you around telling you there’s no wall, there’s no wall, please please take some action, take them out, fuck them, be nice to them.
Game is not the art of tearing down walls. Tearinga down walls is what betas do, non attractive men do, bottom men do – since girls dont want them, so they have to fight it up and ‘get lucky’ and pay a big price and get pretty much nothing in return.
But when you’re doing Game, when you’re opening these girls, the ones who say yes are not responding to a beta who must tear walls – they are seeing alpha behavior and characteristics exposed – so they are not offering a wall but a path to fuck them, a path of no resistance. They make themselves available – in the form of time spent and dates and moments where you can make a move, so you make the move.
If you find walls and back and forth with girls, you’re going back and forth within yourself between having value and chasing value. Stop chasing value.
In some of your best stories here you had a special magical moment with a girl – it was a different thing with every girl. That special moment is “the path” or “the key that solves the puzzle” or “the no resistance” or “what she wants”. That’s the YES, while all the things surrounding that yes, are the NO, so you scan the No and get to the YES, but the YES is there.
With Sincere girl you could do all game stuff but what will open her was that intimate lower key tone and deep rapport. Which wouldnt do anything with Firecraker since her composition is different and she’ll respond to direct physicality (which) would make Sincere run away). With the thai girl on the street it was the adventure. With Siren it’s that outer worldly thing that you share. Each girl has an opening or several of them (pun intended) where there’s no wall and no rejection as long as you match what they want and require right there, if you can match it, they want it more and more and more – and at the same time they don’t want anything else and for all else there’s a wall. Picture that like an egg with one opening – you can be a sperm and push like a motherfucker everywhere but there’s only a spot that will not only not offer resistance, but will suck you in and attempt to merge with you (and kill you :-D ) with such voracity.
Stop the madness means stop hitting against walls, pushing through rejection, etc. It means, understand the basics, understand what women want, and learn to provide that, be the thing that they want, be wanted. There’s no negotiation or tussle required, there’s no wall.
Unless you push the girls with things they are not requesting at that moment, then wall is the only thing you’ll see.
>> In some of your best stories here you had a special magical moment with a girl – it was a different thing with every girl.
Ha… dude, your read on each of the girls as you analyze me… is pretty fucking good. The read of Siren in particular, as I’m closest to her, is spot on.
She has been telling me to “kill her” in bed lately. “Kill me.” That is not literal talk. I’m not even being rough when she says that. It’s “other worldly.” She and I speak that language very well.
>> To fuck a woman you dont ‘tear down her defenses with sexual pressure and game’
>> The woman will signal when she’s ready and when there’s no resistance.
OKay. I hear this.
And I know what this looks like. At least some versions of this. I have seen girls, with that “take me” look in their eyes.
But to be honest… mostly I see that when I’m almost “too late.” When she has been ready for a long time… and either I was too passive to make it happen (not true about me anymore) or I was teasing her… or I wasn’t that into her, so I was making her wait.
I’m sure there are more subtle versions of “I’m ready” that happen before the kind of thing ^ I’m talking about here, but I think this is one kind of place where a woman is ready… not the only one.
>> A lot of the time my perception is that you’re blind to this – you confirmed that saying that you don’t know when a girl is aroused. My interpretation is that the life spent being bottom guy reframed reality and makes you see that girls have one face and it’s rejection, aka a wall, and that to get to the girl you must push against that wall and conquer.
Okay, so I’m going to say yes, definitely, I am blind to much, a lot of the time. Yes. Of course. I have a lot to learn.
>> Game is not the art of tearing down walls.
And I agree. This is more “tussle.” And I want to get away from the tussle. It’s not about “over powering her,” it’s about finding the frequency that she is tuned to… or that she is drawn to.
— WHAT ABOUT GIRLS THAT WANT TO BE **TAKEN**
The girl that gets “taken,” isn’t standing there advertising that she’s ready. The girl that wants to be taken, maybe doesn’t even know that’s what she wants, but she loves that feeling… she didn’t think about it, she didn’t “tell him what to do, how to seducer her” (even non-verbally)… she was a maybe… she knew she was in “danger”… she loved that feeling…
And he just took her.
And I think any time a girl is genuinely surprised — as in “good surprise” — this is what is happening to her. She is not helping with the seduction, other than by not running away. That’s her only role, to stand there… just long enough… to be taken.
I think part of what you’re suggesting is a kind of seduction that is great, is real, is good game, but is slow-seduction, where you are asking for her to participate, to send lots of signals.
I do not think I am crazy when I think of girls that would never “punch your arm” or “sit on your lap” and be THAT ready to be fucked. They are a “maybe” or even “I shouldn’t…” and then they’re fucked, and they’re like “wow, how did that happen!”
— SOME GIRLS WANT TO BE SWEPT OFF THEIR FEET
And I think the phrase SWEPT OFF HER FEET is an example of very good game, that isn’t in opposition to what you’re teaching, but is of a different flavor than what I hear you saying here.
I do not think “sweeping a girl off her feet” is the same as breaking down her walls. I agree that breaking down her walls is not good game (or could be the kind of game that means you have a low self esteem girl).
But “taking girls” and “sweeping girls off their feet” is not the same as Beiber game, where you’re killer value and hold them back and then finally fuck them. Again, for most guys… this would be waiting way too long. It would mean losing girls who don’t have the patience to do all the work and wait for you to “approve them” and fuck them. Most men don’t have enough value to get girls to work this hard… and more girls don’t want to work this hard.
Chasing and “bottom guy” are always bad. I get it.
But there is more than one flavor of game.
“The girl that gets “taken,” isn’t standing there advertising that she’s ready. ”
Yes, she’s standing there advertising that she’s ready.
But are you reading her advertisement?
“she didn’t “tell him what to do, how to seducer her””
All girls say and do has the ultimate motive of tell you what to do and how to seduce them.
“she loved that feeling…”
Her internal feelings make her give external cues. If she is loving it, she is giving you external indicators to move forward. To give her more of that.
“She is not helping with the seduction, other than by not running away. ”
Girls role is to put themselves in situations where you can make a move, and follow your lead. If she’s there standing with you and not running – she is helping with the seduction.
“That’s her only role, to stand there… just long enough… to be taken.”
That’s every girl.
If she’s turned on enough and you’re not moving they will try to force you to make a move. But the standard setup is just being available and compliant. You lead, they follow. That’s their part. If she’s following your lead she’s helping with the seduction. What she responds to, and what she doesnt respond to, while your leading, is the specific combination of how to fuck her.
So yes all of them are telling you.
“I think part of what you’re suggesting is a kind of seduction that is great, is real, is good game, but is slow-seduction”
No, this is x10 faster than what you’re doing.
And takes x10 less work.
“where you are asking for her to participate, to send lots of signals.”
They are sending signals nonstop.
It’s about what you do, how you read them, what you double down on, what you dont.
“wow, how did that happen!”
Yet they were wearing sexy lingerie and shaved that morning – but hey what a surprise.
“SOME GIRLS WANT TO BE SWEPT OFF THEIR FEET”
“but is of a different flavor than what I hear you saying here.”
No. The issue here is where you are.
She’s not a boss that will tell you what to do and how, she’s not the man.
But she is sending signals, she is feeling, she’s reacting to YOUR INPUT.
Your job is to arouse her, and when you do, you double down. When you do it like that, you don’t find any walls – or you find walls but you don’t crash on these, dont push forward against walls and rejection, you keep screening, swinging, and escalate / double down when she’s aroused and will say “yes”. This has the effect of a very, very lubricated dance where the only thing she experiences is arousal, and finds herself flying very, very high very soon, hungry for cock. That’s how you sweep her off her feet.
The opposite route is to pressure her, put your weight on her and tell her to make you stop – ceding her control – when something is too much for her. This means literally pushing against her wall waiting for something to break down. Courting the wall. This makes her go into her rational mind since she’s the one in control – instead of letting go and going with her feelings. And if she goes with her feelings on this dance then the feelings will say “no” because the wall is a ‘no’ and that’s what you’re rubbing against.
“I do not think “sweeping a girl off her feet” is the same as breaking down her walls.”
Yeah they are opposites.
“But “taking girls” and “sweeping girls off their feet” is not the same as Beiber game”
The contrary. All these girls are sweeping themselves off her own feet and all it takes is a smile from Bieber and they are already coming, and they have no control over themselves. There’s no resistance and no wall. They are flying.
“Most men don’t have enough value to get girls to work this hard”
When you act as if you do, you make her feel that you do.
This is Game in a line.
“But there is more than one flavor of game.”
There are flavors but the same principles always apply.
Now – I read that you mixed up the idea of the girl who wants to be taken while she’s resisting it. That’s rape fantasy. “I want to be taken by force”. These want to feel the brute man who doesn’t give a fuck and moves forward.
But these are the kind of girls who tell you “kill me”.
These are the kind of girls who arouse you physically and elevate the temperature, then raise barriers when you move on them.
But read it.
They are telling you exactly how they want it.
“But the standard setup is just being available and compliant.”
A note on that – when she’s available but not compliant, aka went on a date but is busting your balls and wasting your time, she’s pinging the top guy, and pinging the bottom guy, and forcing you to reveal your hand.
If you reveal top guy hand they go to the real default mode which is compliance.
In the Penguin chat there was a girl who didn’t drink (heh) and I busted her balls and got into a mini power fight, which resulted in her apologizing and becoming compliant when I doubled down four times on top guy frame.
For some girls this kind of back and forth is how they get to experience top guy – so this power play would be an integral part of the relationship. Pass.
The other girl Cein is submissive and her top/bottom guy screening was much more subtle, offering situations where a bottom guy would chase. I didn’t chase, which made her her want to come and fuck.
This is not “slow seduction”
This is touching girls right and making them go crazy, burn their house, travel distances to come and have sex with you.
After you talked to them for one minute.
“Most men don’t have enough value to get girls to work this hard”
Women don’t want most men.
Game was designed as the art of imitating the kind of men women work hard for (chase).
What Game should be is the art of BECOMING the kind of men women chase.
What it shouldnt be is the manual for bottom me to work harder in chasing girls.
Chasing girls is anti game. Even the original PUA systems were framed as “reversing the role” as in – you stop chasing for once and let her do it (mind blowing!). Even current bad systems that focus on you doing all the work still feature ideas like “make her invest” and “make her chase you”. It’s funny how this is so out of the reality of the common man (like me over 10 years ago) that it looks like dark magic. But it’s not dark magic – this is the most core basic nature of women.
If the girl is not pinning for you, press next. Figure out what is lacking in you that girls are not pinning for you. This is how I started talking to you by the way.
>> This is why I ask is you’re pulling or pushing. The power of the “come here” is that she is the one walking the steps towards you, so she can regulate her own speed and make up her own mind as you tell her what to do
I have to confess something…
I read this two weeks ago and have thought about it several times.
We both agree we like “come here” as part of the process of escalating. But I’m not sure I’m doing what you’re doing when I say “come here.”
When I say “come here,” I don’t actually wait for her to come. I say that as I move in.
And I think that’s fine, much of the time. But I can see how an alpha with tons of interest from a girl could say “come here” and actually let her come to him.
I do this sometimes. I can do it with Siren, for certain. I do this with girl once we’re already in bed… I give orders, and wait as she does what I say.
But in most cases when I say “come here” in terms of the official kiss… I’m just saying that as I make my move.
“But I can see how an alpha with tons of interest from a girl could say “come here” and actually let her come to him.”
Yep – it’s a top guy move, so it arouses the girl, and makes want to go there, even if she wasnt feeling it before. Try.
This reminds me of one of my favorite stories from night game…
I was talking with a very young, very hot Latin girl. She was fucking hot. I was being ballsy, so I had her attention for a minute.
So this pack of young Brazilian dudes come in… 5 of them, all wolfy/horny dudes. This one guy tried to eye fuck the girl I am talking to as he walks by. Very aggressive. “Forcing an IOI.”
So he sits on a barstool, facing us. And she and I look at him, touch her, lean into her ear and I say, ‘Wow, he really likes you,'” kind of clowning him. Meanwhile, the guy hooks a finger and gestures for her to come over to him. That “come here” gesture with his finger. Solid. Serious. Aggressive.
She ignored him.
And the girl wasn’t that into me, so she went back to her friend.
So I walk over to the dude, and I say, “Hey man, what’s up.” And he looks a little shocked, and I’m sure he thought I was pissed and ready to fight or something, but I was not… just curious.
So I say, “Hey, does that ever work?” And he doesn’t get it. He kind of looks down… he’s getting shy. And I say again, “I’m curious… does that work? You did that think with your finger, you called her over, does that work?”
And he says, “Hey… I’m sorry, man. I’m sorry. I was just trying to get the girl.”
And I was like, “yeah, yeah, I totally get it man, I’m not mad at all… I’m just curious if that move, that move you did, ou called her over, does it ever work??”
And can’t get me at all… he is still apologizing, trying to make things cool with me… and they are already cool.
“Hey man, I’m sorry,” and he smiles, and shakes my hand. He’s getting really friendly now. “She’s a hot girl, I just want to get the girl” And it’s like we’re friends now. So I smile and say it’s cool and go back to my friend.
I love that story.
As I left that night, all the Brazilian wolves smiled at me, nodding their heads, gave me room to move through the crowd and patted me on the back as I came through. I never got an answer to my question… but we were all fellow wolves that night.
Yes, of course that works. From this story he sounds like he was posturing – as in, he was “aggressive” instead of “cool” and he submitted under you as soon as you went to talk to them, apologizing and stuff. So that smells like posture.
But of course telling the girl to “come here” works. If you’re cool and high value.
If you are cool and high value, though, you can also run after a girl on the street and do a yadstop and it will work.
If you’re cool and high value you can also send flowers and a clown and embarrass yourself with public displays of unsolicited love and it will work.
Because it’s the who not the what.
But it’s easier to be the “top guy” when telling a girl to come here, than it is when you run after her, or when doing romantic beta stuff.
I keep insisting in that you do the top guy stuff, so you find the who, so then you can port that elsewhere.
If not – then the girl tornado will teach you, by rejecting the bottom guy no matter how you present it, and rewarding the top guy no matter if you believe on it or not, and if you’re just doing things by chance.