TYO: Frustrated Monster, 5 Dates and +0
I’m a frustrated monster tonight. I am posting this story, for three reasons: 1.) There are a lot of personal details and “date notes” here that guys might find interesting. 2.) I like to share my “low points,” as a service to other guys. I am having a hysterical time here in Tokyo, but this isn’t all “great stories.” It’s a ton of work and ups/downs. And as for 3.) I am open to ideas about what to do in a situation like this… I don’t think I’m playing my “A” game right now.
No sex in five dates is frustrating. But that’s not the “low point.” The low point here is me not playing “A” level game, even if the cards don’t always fall in my favor. Good men will get tested. I want to be the best man I can be. Period. I want that in general. And when I do that… a high quality sex life should be easy.
Here is the story about how I have dated a girl five times… and haven’t fucked her yet. And what that has been like for a man at my level of game.
Let’s call this girl Miss Athlete.
The girl known as “Miss Athlete” has mostly been a great part of this trip. As I got ready for our 5th date tonight, I was more than aware that I hadn’t fucked her. But I was happy to see her again tonight, even though I was pretty certain I wouldn’t get laid tonight either. It would be at least another date before I’d get her panties off. This is overdue versus the timeline of most “normal seductions.” I get that.
And at this point, I think this girl might derail the whole affair… and another womb will get away. And that is stupid on her part. But it is the nature of wombs to be squirmy about getting fucked. This won’t be the last time I see a girl wiggling around as things progress toward the sexual threshold.
I want to know what I can learn from this seduction. I haven’t done a “bad job” here, I’m not embarrassed. But I hope I can play my cards better next time.
I met her many weeks ago. She walked into Starbucks and all my internal alarms went off. She is mid-30s. That puts her outside of the “younger” part of YHT (even if she is still 10 years younger than me).
YHT is a very good standard. It’s still what I aim for, for certain. But in the final analysis, my cock doesn’t not care about that standard. Not at all.
My cock (aka “My CEO”) is either “into the deal” or “he is not.” In the end, it’s a mysterious girl-specific decision. And the decision my cock makes seem only vaguely related to input from my eyes or to a cold analysis of what I am “supposed to like.”
My cock is a very independent thinker.
I like feminine girls, always. And Asian girls, yes. But which feminine Asian girl, and why… lots of mysteries. Lots of surprises at the level of my deeper sexual appreciation of women.
In this case, my cock is 100% into this girl. And so is the rest of me… she’s great. And it’s been a few weeks since I first met her, but I still remember those first moments:
The day I saw her in Starbucks, I stared her down so hard that she felt it from across the room… and she looked up immediately. And made sincere eye contact. And looked away. And then looked back. And I was burning my intent into her by then. And she look away again. And then back once more… a triple-take. With a little smile. She was demure. And charming. But sexier than that.
Maybe she was ovulating… it was fucking on. I wanted her. It almost made me nervous the way we hooked on each other.
I had to run off for another date… but before I left, I walked over to her. After all that eye contact, it was a “very warm” open with this girl. I gave her a sticker, number closed her, and I walked off to date another girl.
DATE ONE. It was the very next day that we had our first day. There was a very real and unusually heavy snowstorm in Tokyo that night. I had made a reservation for the two of us at a great restaurant I go to very often. As we arrive the sign on the door said “closed,” but I assumed it was a mistake. It wasn’t. They were closed. But… they had one cook and two staffers stick around that night… ONLY to honor my reservation. They stayed open, only for me and my date.
It was unbelievable. We had dinner, just the two of us in an otherwise completely empty restaurant… as the snow silently pounded into the city outside. It was very much like a sappy 1980s movie plotline… where some AFC kid has his friend keep the restaurant open late to impress some girl. I have very good rapport with the young manager there, and I assume that was part of why they choose to stay open for us.
An unforgettable date… right there.
And dinner was delicious. And it was a very good date, by my standards. Her English isn’t perfect, but we sat side by side, and communication was solid. I touched her a lot. She warmed up. It was blustery outside when we left.
She had to work early the next day, so I hugged her, kissed her check, and sent her into the subway tunnels to find her way home. I walked home in the snow. Not a super eventful date, but a very good one. It was my forth date of the trip, at the time.
I got to know a little bit more about her on that first date…
Miss Athlete was once a prominent National champion in an Olympic sport here in Japan. She was “#1” in the country. After that, she was a coach for many years. Now she teaches and gives classes at a studio. This is an extraordinary backstory, but for me, it also helps explain why she has an amazing body.
It was her shape and her walk and perhaps more than that… that first grabbed my attention in Starbucks. Krauser might say she has a face like a chipmunk, which is true… but she has a phenomenal figure. And she dresses in tight jeans, with low-cut t-shirts, so her form is always on my mind.
She has a short haircut. Longer than mine, but not by much. Her ears are pierced a few times each. She has generous splashes of freckles across both her rosy cheeks. Slightly tropical features, a broader nose, and truly fantastic lips. Shiny black eyes. She is sweet and warm. A full-flavored “girl next store” vibe, but with a high-performance body.
We talked at dinner about masculine and feminine characteristics (something I always talk about). I wasn’t sure then where she fit on the spectrum. Her exterior isn’t all “pink and ribbons”… but she does wear a lot of color. The short hair is part of the story. She never wears skirts or dresses, always jeans, or shorts in the summer. External clues aren’t as important as a girls “internal energy,” so I kept looking…
I have since come to know that she is a very feminine girl (extremely so), with an athletic background and a tom-boy exterior (that is why her feminine core isn’t completely obvious). Athletes can be hard to compare to other “types” of women. The Tokyo Queen (a former GF of mine), was a champion swimmer… and I see some similar characteristics in this one.
Mist Athlete’s fashion is “urban” and hip… I have accused her of looking like a professional backup dancer. That’s about a perfect way to describe her look. She would look completely natural in the background of a music video. That gives her body context. She is an exceptional mix of “Asian soft” with “six hours of exercise per day.” If you can imagine that combination… that is her.
When I would ask her sexual questions, she would say, “secret, secret” and giggle. She is not racy or bold… in fact, and I wouldn’t have said this at the time… she is quite shy.
As I talked to her about the way I picked her up, she said it was the first time that had happened to her. When I referenced the “chemistry” between us the day we met (and it was crackling), she claimed not to know what I was talking about… and giggled. Said she hasn’t had a boyfriend in a long time.
And that story works for me, against the background of what I know about her job. Teaching women’s classes could put a dent in her dating, as her day to day contacts are all girls. This is like how many teachers (while feminine and lovely) have trouble finding dates… no men in their day to day… just kids, other teachers (mostly women), and moms.
Daygame, by the way… gives us rare access to ^ these girls.
DATE TWO. I booked her later that week and took her to one of my favorite places in Shibuya. We met up, she gave me a hug and little kiss on the cheek, which surprised me.
Dinner was great, although she was a little shy. I was tempted to think she wasn’t that into me or the date, but that read didn’t quite fit. She was a little reserved. At this point, I think that she also kind of liked me, and might have been feeling some pressure from that as well.
We sat next to each other. She doesn’t drink at all. I had a whiskey. The food was amazing. We sat side-by-side, our feet in a cut away section below the floor, at the counter, watching the cooks. I pawed her constantly… slipping my fingers up into the roots of her short, thick, black hair.
As we climbed the stairs back up to the street from the restaurant (it’s in the basement), I tried to kiss her. She laughed and pushed me away. I smiled, grabbed her wrist, and pulled her along up to the street.
After dinner I suggested taking her home to my place. She laughed and said no. She called me “abunai.” No, no, no, no, no and no. I teased her mercilessly. Giving her playful little shoves (the literal “push”) as we walked. I offered desert at another restaurant. The second restaurant… a little closer to my house.
We sat together… and she was visibly nervous. She arranged her limbs such that she had both “high-” and “low-guard” across her body… both her arms across her chest… and her legs crossed as well. That’s a tight defense.
I teased her about it. She would relax a bit, and then look tense again. She was having a good time, but this was a “high stakes” night for her, even if it was very casual for me. I wasn’t being aggressive… most of the pressure she felt was internal.
At this spot we began the metaphor of me as a “dangerous monster” and her as the “beautiful princess.” I do a version of this with almost every girl I date. I am a wolf. I am a vampire. I am a beast. She… is always adorable and vulnerable and pretty. Hot role play. And a way to lead both of us into enhanced masculine and feminine roles. Almost every girl I date calls me “dangerous wolf” or “big monster” or “mean beast”… and it’s a great part of my game, I’m convinced.
Of course I invited her home… her eyes popped and she said “next time, next time.”
I walked her back to her train. Tried to kiss her a few more times. She laughed and chastised me. It was light and flirty.
I was really surprised at how nervous she was after dinner… but I liked her. She is a grown woman, but acts, exactly like the young 20-something virgin girls I am so good at finding. It was two dates, and no kiss, but I was doing my job escalating and signaling the man/woman thing… and I had a great time with her.
She is a good girl. I was looking forward to the next date.
DATE THREE. After she was so “tight” on date two, I worked on a plan to reduce the nervousness in this girl. And I know this is date three, so… you know… there is “THE OLD RULE“… time to move things along.
I told her I wanted her on her day off. And to make sure she didn’t make any plans for later that day (girls do that sometimes, and fuck up the logistics for the latter half of the date). And I had her meet me in my neighborhood (which is killer). And took her to a great lunch. Then, I took her on a “little adventure” to the modern art museum (something I wanted to do). All the bouncing around, and taking trains, and finding our way together… sounded like a great way to ground the relationship. I was trying to dampen the “monster” vibe by doing something in the daylight. I wanted us to bond a bit… and all of that worked. We had a great day together. It was a good plan.
And mid-date, I pushed into an elevator and kissed her. And her lips were soft. Her mouth was wet. The kiss landed perfect. It was hot. She is a juicy and delicious girl.
I was planning on taking her to dinner, but I had set up the plan such that we had two-three hours to kill before it was time to eat, so… back to my place. She gave me a look but walked to my apartment with nothing more than very light, token resistance.
The plan was smooth…
Into my place. Kissed her. Made tea. Moved her to the bed (with her saying, “no, no!” the whole time). Then a two hour makeout.
It was excellent. Couldn’t get her shirt off. But I did unhook her bra and ran my hands all over her. And managed to get a nipple up out of v-neck of her shirt and into my mouth. I even got my cock out… per Mr Rivelino’s recommendation. I never do that, but it went over well. I had her softly purring many times as I turned up the sex. There is passion in this girl. She is responsive. It was hot.
But she wasn’t going to go further than that. I have learned my lesson from Yohami that I am to be focused on arousal, not “pushing against resistance.” That is excellent advice, and cleans up a lot in my game when I keep it mind. It’s a fantastic mindset.
So I aroused the hell out of both of us. And I’m very sure she was soaking wet. She responds very well to deep eye contact. I taught her, quickly and easily, how I like to be kissed. She spent 90% of the time telling me “finished, finished!” and saying that she was going to go home… but she laughed… and she was seriously turned on in between telling me “no, no” and to “stop, stop.” This was all flirty resistance. I never pushed too hard. It was playful and hot.
But she is most definitely another one of those girls that will constantly tell you “no” even as you turn her on. This is her way.
And we went to dinner. And I walked her to the train and she was gone. No sex, but a great date. I was horny… but happy.
DATE FOUR. Had her come over again, on her day off. Her work schedule is irregular, but I got her out again quickly. This felt like it was to be the sex date (I thought).
I had laid all the groundwork for a girl like her… A very strong pickup. A couple of good dates, with sexual intent, to set the frame. We had the comfort date to the museum… and then a hot makeout. She had been in my place (and she was impressed) and in my bed.
It was time.
My plan was to bounce to a couple of quick spots before I took her to my place. We would go to my favorite cookie store. Then… to a kickass tea shop for a warm beverage. I wanted a stop or two before I took her home… so it didn’t feel overly “teenage-horny.” So we could rig a little comfort into the mix before we ended up in my apartment. This was my plan.
But… you know, a rough read of a woman’s “cycle” will tell you have a one-in-five to one-in-six chance of catching a girl on her period on any given day. And it occurred to me that if the Day Game Gods wanted to make this more difficult for me… they would take our second long date and throw that challenge at me. And as soon as I saw her face on this date, I knew I had guessed right. She was a little stiff. Slightly pained look on her face. I didn’t ask, but I knew…
We went through my date spots and I took her home.
At my place, music. I fed her tiny, Japanese strawberries. I made her stand up and led her to my bed. She protested. I told her over and over that she was okay, as I softly dragged her along. She yielded. She was still stiff, but had relaxed slightly. In bed I asked… and yeah, she confirmed… day two of her period.
We made out again… and she loosened up… and despite the “curse,” it was a very good time. Got her shirt off (wasn’t easy) and had her topless. Her body is wonderful. Her skin is super soft. Great tits, big dark nipples. We napped, falling asleep accidentally, for about an hour… her, “little spoon,” curled up against my chest, my right arm between her boobs, and my fingers loosely across her throat.
When we woke up… back to making out. My cock was out again. She wouldn’t put it in her mouth, but I tried that as well.
The sleep had done what actual sleep almost always does for a couple… it bonded us. We felt close. Our post nap makeout was heavy and beautiful. Very romantic. I called her my “lover”… I told her it was weird I hadn’t fucked her yet (I said “fuck,” I do that on purpose, with every girl), but… we were clearly lovers. She smiled. Part of that was setting the frame… part of it was real.
It was time for dinner, eventually. And all her stiffness was gone. Dinner was incredible… I had a reservation in one of the coolest places I’ve ever been, a lounge-y spot, with perfect food, and a huge corner booth for us to share… I touched her all through dinner… running a finger along the space between her jeans and the bottom of her t-shirt… tracing that soft skin above her hip.
Once more… to the train. Another great kiss at the stairs… and she was gone.
She texts me just about every day. Some lovely little texts. This would be strong signs of the beginning of a very dear little LTR… if I wasn’t leaving in a few weeks. She sent this:
FROM A GIRL I'M DATING IN TOKYO:
HER: "Today is sunny, I like sunshine"
— A girl being FEMININE ^
HER: "Please do your best"
— A feminine girl being a proper MUSE ^ (so rare, good "girl game")
NASH: "I like ^ this"
— Me giving her positive reinforcement ^ pic.twitter.com/Kh0Co423L1
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) February 8, 2018
Her behavior here was heart-breakingly attractive for me. She is not a “fast sex” girl. That is clear. But I find the way she is to be deeply charming.
“So they stop it, stop it, and they get to showcase themselves, over three nights, for example, until the guy says ‘Wow, this is a quality person I want to spend time with.’ And then they’ll give sex up, once they’ve shown you who they are.”
There’s part of that quote I featured in my last post. I’m not sure how much of this is nervousness on her part… and how much is conscious pacing. But she seems to be more of “this” kind of girl.
No sex on date #4 either… but I assumed that transition was very close.
Later that night, after date #4:
HER: Sweet dream and have a nice night
HER: Good night.
HER: Gentle monster Nash
Adorable. I’m a horny bad man. But this stuff makes me love her. She needs to get naked. But this is A+ game from her for my taste. This… plus dirty sex… and I’m in love.
I rolled off for two days. And then one morning I sent this:
NASH: Beautiful girl…
NASH: I WANT TO SEE YOU
NASH: When are you free?
NASH: Come touch me.
After she finished work she sent this response:
HER: Hello Nash
HER: I am free the afternoon of 19th
That is cool and all… but it was the fucking 9th of FEB. So, she was proposing a date for 10 days out. WTF? She is gooey-sweet to me. I am a explicitly sexual beast to her. It’s on… and now… a 10-day wait???
NASH: Hi Pretty Girl
NASH: Too long.
NASH: I need to see you sooner.
NASH: Dinner on Saturday?
NASH: Or Sunday night?
HER: I hope 11th dinner.
HER: But I work finish 20o’clock
NASH: The monster wants to see you
HER: really? : ) ?!
HER: Will you have dinner on the 11th?
NASH: Yes… dinner… Sunday.
That was still a week after our last time in bed… and it was putting a damper on our sexual escalation… but it was better than “the 19th.”
We talked on the phone that night… I wanted to get her properly wrangled… and she was sweet and wonderful, but made it clear:
HER: I have work early on Monday, so only dinner.
I do think some of this is “womb management.” She is trying to derail the train so she “doesn’t end up pregnant,” even though the world’s best condoms will make that kind of “birth control” unnecessary.
Girls are chaos. Men are order. Maybe this is her trying to add chaos to my seduction. Maybe this is her… being a girl.
She likes me. It’s clear. And yet… she is still fucking it up. I got it somewhat back on track… but even then, it was “dinner only,” and my time in Tokyo is slipping away. Not only for the notch, but for all the “good stuff” that can come post-first-fuck… if we get that far.
So then, another few days of precious texts from her. She is like a perfect southern belle about the whole thing. I was annoyed at the delay, but she was still charming.
Meanwhile, I was daygaming harder than ever each night. I hadn’t been dating (the Gods are cruel) so I was over-the-top dedicated to approaching and taking leads. I took 20+ leads that week.
As our Sunday dinner date approached, she is asking cute questions and making sure she knows the plan… and I say:
NASH: Bring some clothes for Monday…
NASH: So you can spend the night with me.
NASH: Sleep over!
NASH: So fun!
And then her:
HER: I want only dinner tomorrow…
HER: Is that okay??
HER: Because I work early on Monday morning.
I tell her she should bring clothes just in case. That she may find she WANTS to sleep over. And that I’ll take her for coffee the next morning early. She can go straight to work. And then I bragged about “what a good planner I am.” And sent a cocky picture of our lord emperor Trump (for comic appeal).
This is me… a man… trying to lead. And then:
NASH: But I know you are a smart and wonderful girl
NASH: Of course, you can do as you want!
NASH: I am a MONSTER.
HER: I know you’re a monster : )
HER: But tomorrow
HER: Only dinner!
HER I will spend the night with you.
HER: It is the pleasure until the 19th!! :]
What is up with the 19th? That was the day before she had a day off, I knew that… so she could stay over… I get that. But the day was otherwise arbitrary. I still feel like I am missing some detail about her emphasis of that day.
And “girls don’t make ‘contracts.'” I was in no way taking the “19th” seriously as any kind of “promise of sex.” I was confused about what that day meant to her, and about what it should mean to me as I worked to make contact before then.
DATE FIVE: She messages me when she finishes work. She is on time. This was tonight.
It’s been a week since I’ve seen her. A long week. I have talked to over 150 other girls this week. I had three of four instant dates. I had a girl make a proper date, and then cancel, and then reschedule and show up (that was earlier today). And I had another great fucking date yesterday (if there is a part two, I will write it with relish).
It had been a long time… it seemed. There was a lack of familiarity as I saw her. She seemed a little withdrawn. But… she looked… even better than I remembered her. Lovely.
I had explored my neighborhood even more and found a killer place close to the station. We sat side by side. She was… a little quiet. It was a little awkward.
To be honest… all I did this week was work and game. So I had very little “new content” to share with her. Work is not seductive. And game isn’t something I can tell her about.
I started the date wrapped around her, I like I like to do… but I relaxed that… as she was a little introverted, and in that mood, she was less tempting than normal. I turned away, gave us some space. I sat calmly through the bits of silence as we ate amazing Vietnamese food.
And then… I gave her some more of what I usually bring. I touched her. I kept sliding a finger up under her arm, invading the heat of her axilla. I touched her neck. I talked into her ear. Dinner warmed up a bit.
I wanted to get logistics handled for her and I for the next date. I fished about her work schedule. She told me it changes often. Sometimes early starts, sometimes late evenings.
I then recounted her offer of “the 19th.” I clowned her about it. I pantomimed what it was like to receive that offer… “the 19th!,” I would say, and bug my eyes slightly, and then roll my eyes… “the 19th?”… and I would push her a little and turn away. And move my chair away from her. We both laughed. I mimed messaging her on an imaginary phone, and I said, “better the 24th!” She laughed. I think she got the point.
I gave her another pointed look, and told her that when she really wants to see the monster, she has to take out her phone (and I mimicked her doing that), and message me and say… “I really want to see the monster!” I was trying to train her.
I wasn’t begging. I was trying to lead.
If we “lean back” and let girls dictate the plan… the girl’s plan often goes nowhere. And that sucks for both of us. I was communicating to her that “every 10 days” wasn’t going to work (it really wasn’t). And I was leading in the best way I could summon at that moment.
I teased her one more time, and then gave her a little shove, stood up, and went to the bathroom. The whole affair was starting to feel like work. To be honest… I was getting irritated. I was wondering if this was worth it.
At the table, I was very playful… but now that I was away from her in the bathroom… the whole thing made me feel tired. She was being a pain in the ass… and rather “cool” on this date… and I knew we both wanted more than this.
Yes, I want to fuck her. Yes, a thousand times yes. And I think it is fair to say that we were both invested beyond that. I want the fucking notch, yeah. But delaying the sex was also a barrier to us moving forward in any other capacity. It was blocking the “honesty” that Steve Mayeda talked about in my last post. We couldn’t get there with “dinner only” nights together.
Maybe I could be patient with even more of this “courtship”… I like her… I do… but I am NOT patient with moving BACKWARDS. Moving backwards is a bad sign. And it was this moving backwards that was making me lose my cool.
As dinner ended, I said, “let’s go back to my house.” She said, no, only dinner tonight. I said, “one hour,” and that I would send her home in a cab. I wasn’t overly committed to a lay, but I wanted a makeout… so we didn’t move backwards. She said no, softly, and I didn’t press it. I really didn’t. Just floated the option by firmly, and then let it go.
I asked for the check, and my vibe tightened up a bit. I paid more attention to the wait staff than her for a few minutes, which is noticeably unlike me. This was my version of a “freezeout,” I suppose. A little bit of emotional consequences for her as she gave me so little on this date… and in the planning leading up to the date.
We walked out, and I said I wanted chocolate. She immediately said, “no, no, no.” She was being playful, but it irritated me. I wanted a candy bar to clear my palate… at the convenience store… which was 100 ft away and on the route to her train. She was assuming I was making another play for my house, and I was not. I told her to calm down, and I lead her in the store. My vibe got cooler and I felt her sense it. I bought 82 yen worth of chocolate … a bar for each of us.
We walked the three or four minutes to the station though the chill of the night and the brisk breeze… mostly in silence. I really didn’t have much to say to her. I wanted a beer, at that point, more than conversation. I had had enough of feminine energy. I wanted three or four beers… that’s what I wanted.
As we got to the top of the stairs to the Metro, I said, “c’mere” and I pulled her in, gave her a hug. I didn’t try to kiss her at all. She is a great kisser, but it seemed like a loser’s consolation prize and I didn’t want it. I really like the girl, but she was more work than she should have been on this date. She was all “no’s” and I was getting sick of it. That’s not charming.
And then… as I pull out of the hug… as I go to walk away and end the date… she brought a bag of very nice chocolate out of her purse and gave it to me… with some softness in her eyes.
A present. Finally some “sweetness” from her on this otherwise flat date. But it was terrible timing as I was already over it.
I felt bad… she was trying to be nice… and she had pre-planned this move… and kept it as a “surprise” though dinner… but she ran terrible game on me tonight. As she tried to surprise me, it was incongruent with the stiffness of the rest of the date. The date ended weak for me and I was ready for it to be over.
I thanked her, and I took the chocolate, and put it my coat. I’m sure I had a tired look on my face. I took one of the bars we had bought at the Family Mart and put in her jacket pocket. I told her to get home safe, gave her one last, long, look in the eyes, and I walked away.
Sounds rough. I feel a little rough about it. I don’t think it was that over the top at the time.
This girl doesn’t owe me anything, and yet, I’m bitter.
She made me work way too hard tonight, given all the time we’d had to bond in this courtship. I was pretty good, playful, and light… for 95% of this date. I dug deep to bring us some fun when it was quiet. But there were too many ” no, no, no’s” in the last week. She overplayed her hand as the “pursued.”
And Yohami has taught me not to encourage “the tussle,” not in myself, and not in the relationship. He is right. I know there are some signs of tussle here. And regardless of her behavior, I am responsible for my dates and my relationships. I own that. And it’s up to me to keep the tussle out.
I am a little bitter now. It’s true. Five dates with a girl I really like. I do like her. She’s great. Great connection. But she is playing a little too hard to get. That can be true… and… I can still keep and eye on myself with the tussle.
I can’t make ultimatums. I know that. And my bitterness is not the slightest bit attractive. I get it. I should swing my dick… find something she likes. This post is almost a meditation to remind me to do exactly that.
And I think she does like my show. But when she puts long gaps in between our dates, she runs out the clock, and limits what I can do as a man leading her. If I can get her face to face, I have a LOT more options. If she makes that hard… we will run out of time… and chaos will win.
If I can’t use force here… and I cannot… my main tool is… to go date girls that are more into me. That is my option. Other girls. And to let things with her fall atrophy, if I can’t get her out or get her alone… if this is all she’s got for me.
And that sucks. I think she is into me. And she is fucking it up right now. But my life is about me. About what I can do. About my role. About my next steps. Always. This is on me. It always is.
The idea of just moving on to other girls is disappointing. And it is very hard for men… to face the idea of “giving up” and going back into the forest to hunt for some other girl. It’s very hard for me to have the discipline to do this when I’m invested. But I get it. This is an important truth.
I have a lot of other leads in play. And I will run game tomorrow.
But… fuck. She is such a dumb-lovely girl about all this. So many girls are. Self-sabotaging, adorable little fools.
She messaged me tonight when she got home. Thanking me. Being sweet. Saying she was going to bed.
I didn’t want to reward her with my usual response… my usual mix of effusion, romance, and dominance. There is some tussle in me tonight. She is in trouble. And I don’t want to over play that, but it’s true. I can’t yell at her, or try to “logic” her into spending time with me… but I can walk away. I can lean back… and let chaos consume our little thing we have. Fuck.
I waited until she was asleep and then sent her a pic of a princess asleep in bed. No comments from me, just that pic. That is a response… an attempt to minimize the tussle… but it is a noted step down from the Octopus game I have been giving her these last few weeks.
I bet she’ll message me this week.
And maybe I’ll try to get her out before next week? Or maybe that’s a mistake? Me chasing… just losing value. To let it die… or to chase. The double-edged sword of feminine chaos fucking me either way. I know there are other options besides those two.
Maybe I’ll invent some event to invite her too… as a way to introduce a new option (=”judo”), a time sensitive one that requires us to get together before next week… and by doing that, maybe I can recapture the frame? Maybe I can “be at the cause”, not “at the effect” of her delays?
Five dates. And I’m a frustrated monster.
There are other leads. I will be out tomorrow and my game is very warm right now. But this is not the path I want to be on tonight.
UPDATE: I am proof reading this post now… and it’s a week after I wrote it. I am in a different head-space, but I captured all this the night of DATE FIVE… so the writing was as fresh as possible versus how I felt.
I already have another story about her, but this is where I was at last week… dying with frustration and more than a little bitterness.
I really like the story of this girl… she is clearly a highly of my trip… and I’ve scored a lot of reference experiences. Some here… and some in the next post about her.
Only going by what you have said and nothing about what you did – I have had experience with a same type. She is a type that feels it a lot. Super in tune, super aware, is affected by feelings a lot, an accumulation of everything that is happening to her right now, today, this week (even this year and her life). Or maybe that is women anyway but even more so in this case -if she is super feminine.
The initial meeting, she is aware of the stare without seeing it, she can sense it. Like there is some thing in the ether with you and her. You are probably similar hence the feeling and the connection.
The deep eye contact – she can feel it penetrate her right to her core. No boyfriend for a while, older – same. (I think they also put a lot of obstacles in the road to what they want because the feeling is very strong for them, and what negative things may have happened to her in the past). Younger ones who feel it a lot don’t have this yet.
She turns up all stiff – probably nervousness of the date and probably what ever happened to her during the day unconnected to you – put all those things together – she’s not relaxed right away.
If you get a negative feeling from her which you emit – because you think it is all down to you – she will feel it and add it to the mix.
If she is all stiff you can know its not about you entirely and just be strong and calm and do nothing ( don’t try and touch her straight away and some times say nothing). If it comes from a strong aware place this is different from coming from a negative place. Sometime you meet and you walk some where together saying nothing being strong and calm – she will feel it and soak it up and become calm and relaxed herself. You go do dinner and sit beside her and not touch her for a while in a calm strong state – she knows you are not a pussy because you have touched her before, she wants you to touch her – create a void from a strong calm relaxed place, once she soaks up this she will probably move to fill the void.
If girls naturally hate pressure, a very feminine one i.e very sensitive girl – will feel pressure much more acutely even if the same level of pressure to much less sensitive one would have no impact.
Great comments, Surround.
>> She is a type that feels it a lot. Super in tune, super aware, is affected by feelings a lot, an accumulation of everything that is happening to her right now, today, this week
I think that is a pretty good read.
The only thing that makes me question this for her… is that she is mostly very happy. That TWITTER POST example of the text she sent me… that is pretty consistently her. She “loves sunshine.” She’s not only feminine, she is almost girlish. Not “hyper,” or animated, but sunny and lovely.
>> and what negative things may have happened to her in the past
I have seen her quiet, and sensitive, and shy… but never “negative.” Not once. Even when she is telling me “no,” she is saying “please” as she says it.
I’m not saying she doesn’t feel that… but she is notoriously upbeat and “sunny” for the “feeling” type.
>> She turns up all stiff – probably nervousness of the date and probably what ever happened to her during the day unconnected to you – put all those things together – she’s not relaxed right away.
This is very her. I have never seen her negative… but ^ this is her, exactly. A little stiff. Takes a while to relax her. Although… physical contact seems to relax her pretty quick.
>> If she is all stiff you can know its not about you entirely and just be strong and calm and do nothing ( don’t try and touch her straight away and some times say nothing).
This is common definition of “the masculine.” Whereas masc = “nothing.” Deida would say, “the masculine is consciousness,” which on an emotional level, doesn’t “look” like anything.
>> Sometime you meet and you walk some where together saying nothing being strong and calm – she will feel it and soak it up and become calm and relaxed herself.
This impresses me, man. This is very good coaching here. I could always use more of this.
>> If girls naturally hate pressure, a very feminine one i.e very sensitive girl – will feel pressure much more acutely even if the same level of pressure to much less sensitive one would have no impact.
I’ll quote this in my next story about her.
Great comments. Great coaching. Thank you.
Surround… will you please send me a message via my contact form (I want your email, if that’s cool). I’d like to see if you’d like to help with a piece I’m writing. Thanks.
Great story as always. Few pointers
Kudos for the focus put on not increasing the tussle. That last date when you were taking things for the worse and she had a special thing planned with that chocolate – that’s a perfect example of a ‘door’ that goes unseen.
So what does she want?
The chocolate, to me, means that she’s missing some normal / beta / provider courtship. She moved too close to sex and wants to roll back some to fill in the gaps of what she’s missing.
Also if she was on her period on date 4, a couple weeks later she’ll be on her highest horniness day, chances are she’s planning all this stuff already.
Girls are NOT Chaos.
Looking forward to the update on this one.
When you were at your place, was your hand on her pussy? if not it should – you should be fingering her, as in, fingers in, when you make out. Mouth on mouth, one hand in boob, another hand in pussy, another hand on her ass, another hand…
>>The chocolate, to me, means that she’s missing some normal / beta / provider courtship. She moved too close to sex and wants to roll back some to fill in the gaps of what she’s missing.
A little detail about NASH GAME:
I take girls to dinner. Often. And I’m much older, and make more money than the girls I date, so I am happy to pay for the experiences we have together. That’s not for everyone, but it works well for my particular lifestyle.
They often offer to pay… In Tokyo… the girl has her wallet out, almost every single time. Good manners on these girls. And I appreciate that gesture and the lack of assumption. It’s graceful.
When a girl make an effort to pay, or brings up “cost” with me… I brush her wallet aside. I tell her:
NASH: “When you’re with me, I will take care of us.”
But, I often tell them:
NASH: “If you want to BRING ME CHOCOLATE… I like that. If you’re thinking of me, and want to bring me chocolate, that would be awesome.”
It’s a type of currency I suggest with girls. If they want to “contribute,” they can bring me chocolate. She has brought be chocolate several times.
It could be more than that with this girl… but that is a thing I do with girls all the time.
Miss Thick brings me chocolate regularly (and other presents… she bakes for me, too). And I praise the hell out of her every time. It’s beautiful when they do this, and I let them know. Girls, giving us little gifts, is a wonderful ritual for a LTR.
“If you want to BRING ME CHOCOLATE… I like that.”
Ah – she was actually doing compliance then.
I hope the next date was the bang.
>> Girls are NOT Chaos.
Okay… the “feminine” is chaos. Not always, but often. The “feminine” is the hurricane.
And very much to Surrounds point above, often the man is the “container” that the feminine “runs around within.” We are the castle walls. She is the hurricane… and she burns off her wild energy against our walls. We calm her down. And I would argue… the masculine bring order to the “chaos” of her emotions.
(Men can be “feminine chaos” too… but in high polarity relationships… it’s usually the man providing “stillness” and the woman playing the role of the “wild fire.”)
This isn’t an exact science, but it’s a model I like.
>> When you were at your place, was your hand on her pussy? if not it should – you should be fingering her, as in, fingers in, when you make out. Mouth on mouth, one hand in boob, another hand in pussy, another hand on her ass, another hand…
Yes, it specifically was.
This “hand” and “hand” and “hand” — that is the physical part of “Octopus Game.” That is where I get that name. Octopus Game isn’t all “physical” (that’s not the point at all), but the physical part is exactly what you’re saying. Yes.
Side note: Your coaching, Yohami, has me much more in-tune for what is working… I am looking at the process in “smaller chunks.” What is an “on” switch, versus an “off” switch… at smaller and smaller increments. It’s really helping. I think this is a required skill to run game the way you suggest we do… “micro calibration” in arousal.
In this case, on our first time in bed, I had her on her knees, briefly. I was behind her, pulling her back against my chest. And I had a hand on her throat. I pulled her head around and was kissing her over her shoulder. And the other hand on her pussy… and she loved it. She responded very well to that… and I took a mental note… and the next chance I had, I did something a certain wise man has been trying to get me to do…
I gave her “more of what she wants, and less of what she doesn’t want.”
Thank you, man. I am listening. And this is showing up in my game.
“To let it die… or to chase. The double-edged sword of feminine chaos fucking me either way. ”
Women are not chaos and the above is missing the ‘Pull’, aka is ignoring the ‘she wants’ part of the equation.
Pull: ping her desire, then roll back and let her come to you.
Tell her what to do, then let her do it. Don’t fill in yourself, don’t try to force her or make her do moves. “Let” her.
Flirt, tease, initiate, then let her do. That pause and space is her turn to come to you.
If when you stop things stall, then you’re not doing that above. Do more of that.
How? do X number of things, pay attention to what lightens her eyes, or where she invests, then do some more of that (double down) then retreat. That “give space” is where you’ll see the girls come for you. You’re not supposed to be pushing all the time. Let her hunt. Hunting is her main script. She’s not supposed to be running away when you chase. She’s scripted to be the one chasing. This is her HARD script.
Ask Riv about it :-)
>> aka is ignoring the ‘she wants’ part of the equation.
I hear you. And TOP GUY sees more of that than the rest of us. I have been thinking about that a lot.
If she is showing me the “she wants” part, I am much more likely to behave like Top Guy. And when I can’t seem to find that territory… I am always bottom guy to some degree.
What I am trying to say is… “she wants” helps enable Top Guy. It’s like gas for Top Guy’s racecar.
Yes, Top Guy creates “she wants” in the women around him… but “she wants” also “creates” Top Guy swagger. Sort of.
I think this is what you were saying when you say “start game from a position of Beiber” (environmental game), where your position natural inspires “she wants,” and then more of your behaviors will be in the realm of Top Guy behaviors… even if you’re only learning game.
I know this isn’t exactly right… but I am zeroing in on some of this.
And I think it goes “both ways”
“She wants” Top Guy
The more you’re the guy at top and center, the more women come with their arousal spots exposed and open.
Their arousal spots are not just ‘sensitive’, they are ‘hungry’.
When they are in presence of what they want, they not just ‘reveal’ themselves, they ‘open and salivate’. The vagina itself opens, gets wet, the clit tenses, same happens with their nipples, they get a flush of blood on the cheeks, pupils dilate, body gets tense, ass comes out – all the reproductive parts get ready, and she wants ‘more’, she wants it ‘inside’. With desperation. To get it, she sets herself as your subordinate, offers compliance, puts herself in position so you can do your moves, so you can take her somewhere, and give her what she wants.
Imagine there’s a bar from non arousal to yes arousal, that thing above being arousal. When the girl is on 0 you see the complete opposite of that, when the girl is on 100 the girl herself is running after you screaming because she wants cock. Look how girls in groups scream when they see a celebrity – men don’t do that, girls do. It’s an “arousal” scream, it’s a LUST scream.
The more you’re the man up and center the more the girls come to you with these spots already exposed and wanted more.
The more you’re exposed to how girls look when aroused, the more you get used to differentiate what it looks like.
The more you interact with girls who are into you, the more you learn to differentiate the ones that don’t.
The ‘sea of approval’ shows you exactly what arousal looks like.
When you’re up and center, all the eyes are on you so your impact is maximized. Very tiny things produce very visible results.
So when you say that things are subtle – they are not. They are huge. It comes down to the frame of reference, and knowing what is what.
So – you’re in top center, with a position of authority, every little thing you do has an impact, positive and negative, you get a sea of pre approval with arousal spots exposed and a default ‘give me more’, you can see clearly what is on and what is off, you see which of your actions resulted in losing arousal and which produced more, and because this is centered on your position the whole interactions are ‘low stakes’ and cheap.
Compare with bottom guy, he’s out of the circle tribe and no power, pretty much nothing he does has an impact, positive or negative (but most things go negative), you get a sea of rejection, with arousal spots mostly passing by, hidden most of the time, exposed only when open for other guys, girls in a default position of ‘no, thanks’, you can’t see clearly what’s on and off, can’t see which of your actions result in arousal and which don’t because women are trying to hide their reactions from you (they haven’t lost control, and you have no control), and because you’re in this position all the interactions, for you, are high stakes and expensive.
These two things above are pre-scripted.
To make it more ‘unfair’, girls are naturally attracted to the first scenario and naturally repelled by the second, so any hint of vibe of each will also result in ‘more of that’, give hints of ‘high stakes’ for example and that’s a turn off, give hints that you’ve faced a ‘sea of rejection’ and that’s a turn off. Etc. There’s a switch, on and off, that then leads the destination of your interaction with her.
The top guy sees a lot of YES, so it’s easier to double down on the YES which closes the loop and gives him the swagger, as you say.
And then the swagger is itself attractive because it belongs to the attractive frame.
Then ‘bottom guy frame’ is not more ‘natural’ than the top guy frame, both are natural. When I hear this thing about ‘most guys whatever’ I scratch my head and I know this is hard to communicate, but:
That reality you experience where girls are a sea of rejection and you have to hunt them down, that’s not reality, that’s just one of the two frames. These same girls are hungry needy beasts and want nothing but get more more more more more more more. All the time.
When you interact with a girl, what you do is find that hunger and ping it. Then pull back a little so it comes more to the surface, then you do it again.
That’s all really.
The reason this becomes easy when you’re top guy in the societal ladder is you ‘know’ what it looks like because you’ve seen a lot of it, you’ve dealt with it before, you know the rules and what increases and what decreases it etc (and this on itself is attractive so when the girl perceives it, she’s aroused, it’s a loop)
Bottom guy thinks “the wall” or her rejection is all there is so he pushes against it. Like girls are ‘naturally’ entitled and pushy and rule setters and that winning for them is just pushing you away.
Nope – winning for a girl is both taking in the top guy, and pushing out the bottom guy. You don’t have control over this. What you have control over is which of the two guys you are.
And all you’re doing when interacting with a girl during a courtship is roleplaying one of these two guys.
I was a teacher at a design institute for a while – I had dozens of girls looking me with these eyes, I didn’t get it.
I was a boss at a couple of companies – I had a few girls giving me eyes and stuff for a while, I didn’t get it.
I got in decent shape and musculature and went to parties and pubs – I saw girls touching my arms and smiling, I didn’t get it.
Up until I found “Game” I just didn’t get any of it even though it was on my face, my ‘frame’ of reference told me what things meant, so I didn’t take in any other information, I mean I saw all these girls shiny and happy and all trying to interact with me, but that DOESN’T POSSIBLY MEAN I CAN JUST FUCK THEM RIGHT?
Yes, that’s what it means.
That’s exactly what it means as long as that when I interact with them Im leading towards sex, and I keep that flame alive and make it burn more.
To that you ‘pay attention’ and ‘give her more of what she wants’ or ‘arouse her more’. And the things that will arouse more are, all of them, things that come from that ‘top guy’ space, that she’s already reacting to.
See a girl that you like, but she’s not paying attention to you?
Chit chat, screen things, do types of humor, tease, etc. Eventually she’ll light up, as soon as something ‘pings her’, then you double down some, cross the line some, then give some little space so she comes after you (she comes closer, punches you, touches you) etc, that’s the ‘escalation’. All the stuff that she’s not reacting to? why would you invest any time there? any attempt that she makes to frame you as bottom guy? you flip that back (eh no thanks Im good) and keep pinging the arousal. The more aroused she is, the more compliance she shows, the more ‘going with the flow’ it is for her, the more you’re allowed to lead, less resistances you find, the more she herself starts taking your hand to put it on her pussy because she cannot resist any more.
This above is so predictable, is why I say girls are not ‘chaos’.
Water looks more chaotic than rocks but it’s still fully predictable, aka, add cold and it freezes, add heat and it melts, more heat ant it turns to vapor and wind can push it away, the more cold and it condenses or rains, then… it may be beautiful and mysterious as in ‘we don’t know the meaning of life’ but as far as being able to be predicted, women are fully, completely, predictable. Specially in courtship and sexual dance.
What all the women want is a guy who is:
Who the fuck is confident? who is confident WITH WOMEN?
“Knows what he wants and how to get it”
Who the fuck knows what he wants? most guys cant even tell a girl what they want (tell her what to do) and how to get it (which is why ‘announcing’ but not ‘doing’ kills you). Who the fuck knows ‘how to get what you want’ from women?
Who is non needy about women? given the insatiable hunger men have for women, who can have this hunger and ‘know what he wants from her’ and being confident while at the same time not need her? Why is not needing HER attractive? how can he WANT but not NEED?
“Doesn’t take shit from anyone”
Who the fuck doesn’t take shit from ANYONE? and if this is what she likes then why in hell is she going to be the one throwing shit at you? why is she throwing shit at you if what she finds attractive is that you dont take HER shit?
“Treats me right”
Who the fuck knows how to treat her right, when in the middle of all that she’s bouncing in both directions, giving you as many cues that lead to disaster (bait for bottom guy) as cues that lead to a better place? why do they give you both and who knows how to ‘treat that right’? what is exactly the ‘right treatment’ that she finds attractive? this one kills so many betas btw. Betas really want to do the ‘right thing’ which is sad because it has no meaning unless you know what the right thing is. And she won’t just tell you, even though, she actually is. If you’d just listen.
All the leads lead to the same place and this crap has been screaming on your face your whole life.
Tying more dots:
“And then the swagger is itself attractive because it belongs to the attractive frame.”
When the girl sees the ‘swagger’, that arouses her, which makes her expose herself to that swagger, offer ‘her arousal spots’ because she wants to experience it. Then experiencing it makes her more aroused so she wants more.
When the girl sees ‘tussle’ instead, that kills arousal, but that regression if it was mixed with arousal is not ‘clean’ so it’s presented forward as conditionals and drama, aka ‘puzzle’, so it’s a combination of arousal and rejection, thrown back at you – and if you reply with more tussle, the more non-arousal is added to the mix, thus ‘making the puzzle harder’ or ‘hiding more the arousal spot’ until it’s not visible anymore, she buries it so she’s able to move on.
The thing that is never negotiated is what she actually finds attractive and what she actually aroused by. “what she wants” never changes. At any point of the interaction, ever, that you ping ‘what she wants’, her only reaction possible, doesn’t matter anything else, is to then react to that positively, and expose herself more, so she can feel it, thus ‘mixing up more arousal’ or ‘making the puzzle easier’.
Aka “the best players get the easiest game”
Not “the best players solve harder puzzles”
You may get a hard puzzle but if you’re a good player all you do is find the spot and touch THAT, while ignoring the rest of the garbage.
Rub that spot and any other spot that gets exposed while you are it, and it doesn’t matter who is she or what’s going on, every woman is a YES.
>> Pull: ping her desire, then roll back and let her come to you.
Alright… so my favorite example of this is “c’mere.”
When NASH says, “c’mere,” he says it, and then steps in, grabs her, kisses her.
When YOHAMI says, “c’mere,” he says it… and actually waits for her to “c’mere.” And I assume she does.
I pointed this out in another comment once before. The day I realized that you actually “make her”/”allow her” room to come to you… that you don’t step forward as you say that… I was almost embarrassed. I was embarrassed. That I was only then “waking up” to that as a POV. That I had NEVER done that.
I have still never done that… not intentionally. It almost seems impossible. Like she’ll just stare. Or say no. Or back up.
Girls like me, they do. And they fuck me. Often into an LTR… better and better sex. Girls chase me, sometimes… usually after I have fucked them a few times (who said here, “It takes a girl three times to bond with you??” That is about right for me)…
I have SO MUCH EXPERIENCE where girls DO RESPOND to me “arousing them” through a chorus of “no’s”. My “c’mere” works on those girls… very often. That is a fact. But I think it IS likely AMATEUR HOUR vs what you are say. I know you’re right. I’m just not there yet.
It’s not that girls don’t chase me. And touch me. And come to me on their own accord. Or that they don’t initiate. Or ask for more. They do. That is fairly normal for me. But almost always AFTER I have “charmed” them with my Octopus Game. I ALWAYS “step forward” on “c’mere.”
I feel like I train girls to want to me… to come forward… because I show them what it looks like. Adn because they like what I show them.
But maybe that is wrong… maybe they just get sold (for any combination of reasons) and then they “hunt me” because that is their nature.
I can’t tell if I am of a fundamentally different TYPE than you are… and/or just “unbased” in this regard. This is a CORE QUESTION for me in game right now.
I haven’t written about Octopus Game yet… because I know I am a little too confused here to do that justice. I’m taking notes of a piece about that… but I am curious about this thinking first.
I’ll write more later, but:
“I feel like I train girls to want to me…”
Do you see it? :-)
You can train girls to do things in specific ways, but ‘want’ is what belongs to them. You ask (yourself) what they want, then you ping that thing, rub that thing. That’s not you ‘training them to want you’, that’s you delivering to them what they already wanted.
This frame of you having to train them to want you stars of the assumption that they don’t want you already. That’s a wall you’re setting up for yourself. It makes your progression ‘pushy’ but not pushing against her specific arousal spots. These you have to ‘pay attention’
I know you’re getting all this.
But you don’t have to train them to want you. You train them to respect you at best.
They want you if you have what they want.
And what they want is the pretty basic and common “the real man” that I keep refining in that top guy frame idea.
“It almost seems impossible.”
Tell the to cmere and look at them with a cocky green and they’ll come and kiss you. Tell them to undress and they will take their clothes off.
A lot of the things when you stall it’s because you think you have to keep pushing against these sweet no’s.
Maybe too much focus put on where these no’s are. Maybe you’re going specifically for the resistance points and the mini frame clashes. Sure some of that results in arousal, sometimes. If the girl already got to your room she’s been getting the other stuff she likes, she’s been getting what she wants, so she’ll play to be pushed a little while her thermometer fills drop by drop.
All the other girls who didn’t get to your room, these you put aside by not understanding what they wanted first and putting your attention there.
Shy girls like being told what to do. It removes the burden off them. Then they get wild once hot.
>> Tell her what to do, then let her do it. Don’t fill in yourself, don’t try to force her or make her do moves. “Let” her.
>> Flirt, tease, initiate, then let her do. That pause and space is her turn to come to you.
I can do this in CONVERSATION. I can set something up. I can talk a bit, set something up… and then… let her fill that space. This is like Juggler’s “vacuum.” I can do this in conversation… even on the street, in the initial pickup.
^ And this REQUIRES VALUE. For cold approach pickup… building value can take a little bit of time. For SMALL HOOPS, we can ask this from her quickly. For BIG HOOPS… it takes more value.
I can do this in conversation, but I don’t do that in physical escalation.
Okay… QUESTION: Do we expect “shy,” INTROVERTS to step fwd? On the first date?
In my experience, I think girls start to come fwd… AFTER I have led them through things “three times.” They build trust and experience, and then the “third time,” I just look at them and they “do the thing.”
Some of these girls are fucking nervous… I have had them visibly shaking… even on this trip. And those girls are in “freeze” mode. So making them step fwd into “fuck” mode is a lot to ask. But once they have been through things two-three times… they calm down… and I see them step fwd.
This WORKS for me. Not all the time, but often. And it leads to happy girls long term. Very often. Miss Thick was like this. Siren was like this. Etc.
I think what you’re saying would help me HOOK MORE GIRLS… because some girls will be turned off and “flee” when I do my version of “c’mere.” They aren’t aroused yet, and they don’t like it, or read me as bottom guy. I know this isn’t alway true… but sometimes it might be.
Right now… the way I am walking into TOP GUY space is… FOCUSING ON AROUSAL. Yes. I am “doing more experiments” to find what she likes. And I am “doubling down” when I get a hit. When I don’t see something hit… I try something else.
But I am also very willing to make her “dig her fingernails into the seat” as I surprise her with some “fast driving.” I don’t want her to hit the brake. She can say “stop, stop,” but if she hits the brake, I’m doing it wrong.
This is me baby stepping into this.
And I do this for few rounds… and she calms down… that is a normal pattern for girls. And she gets that I can hear her… and that I can respond… and ALSO that we will drive fast sometimes… and after a few rides… I expect her to say, GO FASTER, I LOVE IT!!!
But I don’t expect that at first…
I’m sorry if I’m way out of line and seem like a jerk with this post. I’m partially projecting myself onto you, based on your past writings of being a seducer, slayer of women, bad man that ravishes young, tight women. Some of this post sounds a lot like myself from the past, so please don’t take it personally unless it’s relevant.
Date 1: “dinner” Really? You’re out to bang YHT babes, and here you are taking your time having a nice meal. No kino? No dirty talk? So quiet that the staff can hear everything you say? Fuck dinner dates. Personally, dinner dates are rewards for for women I’ve already fucked a half-dozen times (and who I like).
Date 2: Dinner again… She’s all guarded? When a woman does this I call her out on this, see what the issues is, and if I can’t address it, I save my time if she’s a prude or whatever. This should be done on the *first* date, but I can understand on the 2nd if mistakes/unusual circumstances occur.
Date 3: Lunch and Art Museum? Followed by a two hour makeout and she won’t even take her shirt off? Jesus.
And then… Dinners again????
“Her behavior here was heart-breakingly attractive for me. She is not a “fast sex” girl. That is clear. But I find the way she is to be deeply charming.”
Dude, from what I’ve read on your blog, you’re all about fucking these YHT babes, and now you’re being charmed by a girl that doesn’t even want it. She might like crazy sex, but she doesn’t value it, some women ARE prudes or only want sex twice a month. You may need to reevaluate your behaviour, values, and women you’re dealing with.
“This girl doesn’t owe me anything, and yet, I’m bitter. ”
You’re taking it out this girl, who clearly doesn’t want monster sex, when you want monster sex. You’re probably bitter at yourself, this is all your own fault.
“The idea of just moving on to other girls is disappointing. And it is very hard for men… to face the idea of “giving up” and going back into the forest to hunt for some other girl”
Bullshit! It’s very easy to do this when date one ends up crappy. Here you probably spent a dozen hours on this prude to get nothing. You probably like this girl for her outside-the-bedroom behavior when she is totally incompatible for your sex life. I highly recommend screening girls for hot sex FIRST, and THEN keep the emotionally attractive ones slated for potential MLTR/OLTR material.
But…. now you’re STILL thinking about taking her out!
p.s. I enjoy Jordan Petersen too, and he’s a good guide for masculinity, but ___NOT___ for seduction. Keep Deida’s work in mind instead.
Hey Victor. Thanks for the comments.
>> Date 1: “dinner” Really? You’re out to bang YHT babes, and here you are taking your time having a nice meal. No kino? No dirty talk? So quiet that the staff can hear everything you say?
^ Is that your kind of dinner date? : ] I doubt that is what you do at dinner. And that’s not what I do on dinner dates either.
>> Fuck dinner dates.
I have great dinner dates, man. I always sit side by side. Often at a counter, with her stool almost in between my legs. I am wrapped around her. The kino is constant. My mouth is next to her ear. There is always sex talk. And no one can hear, because we’re too close… and I don’t care what anyone can see. It’s all “bubble” for her and I.
AFC dinners, sitting across from each other… suck. But my dinner dates… are intimate, “handsy,” and a great way to get to know a girl.
>> I call her out on this, see what the issues is, and if I can’t address it, I save my time if she’s a prude or whatever
I date some mousey, conservative Asian girls. They are very hot to me. I am into the “fast sex” very often, but I probably average 2-3 dates. I think that’s normal. Not a bad deal.
>> now you’re being charmed by a girl that doesn’t even want it
There is a second part to this story. Stay tuned.
>> You’re probably bitter at yourself, this is all your own fault.
That’s fair. That’s part of what I am saying here. I know I could ditch her… of course. But beyond that, how could I seduce her better? That is on my mind. And I hold myself responsible for that.
It wasn’t about a lack of escalation. I did my job there. But when a girl likes you… but is resisting like this… what can we do? Date other girls. Yes. I said so. Anything else?
>> Bullshit! It’s very easy to do this when date one ends up crappy. Here you probably spent a dozen hours on this prude to get nothing.
Fair points. I do like her for behavior outside the bedroom. I do. It’s obvious I like this girl.
As for “it being easy.” You might have a lot of options. You need options, for this to be easy.
Most guys… don’t have options. They are all about the bird in the hand. If I had more options, I would have still tried to date this girl… but if I was getting a lot of YHT elsewhere, she probably wouldn’t have had this much attention. True.
As it was… I wasn’t dating SO MUCH that I had no time for her. So I saw her. She wasn’t keeping me from anyone else. And I was enjoying her… and each time… I assumed sex was going to happen. She surprised me. That’s what this post is about.
And for most guys… no, it’s not easy to go find new girls. For you it may be. And for ME it is, in fact, easy, to at least go talk to new girls. For me, that’s easy. Dating new girls, even in a foreign city… is pretty easy. I am doing it here. And I did it in NYC.
But for most guys… they will cling to a situation like this… and I get why. It’s part of male psychology to “try to solve the problem.” That is what I am talking about. My question here was… “is this solvable.” And I bet a lot of guys would ONLY look for solutions to the problem, and NOT see “hunting new girls” as the BEST SOLUTION… which I agree with you, it often is. I did that. But I am writing about this thought process for men, and thinking a little beyond my own actions.
>> I highly recommend screening girls for hot sex FIRST, and THEN keep the emotionally attractive ones slated for potential MLTR/OLTR material.
My plan, exactly. Well… I want sex. I try right away. If I get sex, “hot sex” can be developed, even if it’s not “hot” on the first date. I almost always think sex gets better with at least three times in bed together.
But this girl isn’t like most of my stories. That’s partly why it’s an interesting story.
>> But…. now you’re STILL thinking about taking her out!
>> ONEITIS ALERT!
Well… I hear you… but I talked to 150 OTHER GIRLS that week. So, I’ll give myself a pass on one-itis. And I have dated at least 15-20 girls in the last two months (if you count idates). I like LTRs, but I haven’t been exclusive in years, and I clearly pickup… all the time.
The deal here is… I liked her. I was dating other girls the whole time. I assumed I would have fucked this girl faster… but it just wasn’t happening, no matter what I did. Meanwhile… I liked her more than the other dates. All of the other girls were younger, some were hotter, but not all of them “clicked” like she and I did. This girl was slow to fuck… for sure… but was still a good deal for me.
And… there is a second part to this story. I’ll have more to say in the next day or so.
I enjoy reading your blog for quite some time. I wonder how long you‘ll stay in Tokyo as I am living here for quite some time. I‘d really like to have a beer with you and to share some experiences.
Thanks for your feed back – I am happy to add my thoughts to the thread if they help.
In regards to the ‘negative’ – yes these girls are rarely negative per say – just things (which may be deemed negative) that may have happened to them in their past might shape them. They feel it a lot and might be stressed from things but they are never really negative as a result. As you said just naturally sweet. They have a resilience that returns them to an attractive baseline of happiness.
None of this is probably new to you.
Maybe an embedded idea or belief from a long time ago shapes actions or ideas and beliefs further up. If you got into something (game) with the belief you were not naturally good at something or needed to become better at something then there is maybe some limiting deep down idea that might create sticking points or resistance – just let go of it.
Xsplat’s mental model or map is a good way of looking at it. Everyone is updating their own metal map rather than learning to be good at something. People share their ideas and beliefs that make up their own. Hopefully becoming better is the outcome.
Improving it by letting go of certain ideas and beliefs and adding new ones and seeing where that takes you. Often the action just extends from the idea. Or the action can be prevented from an idea held. Add a new idea and let go of another old one and things tend to start to open up – as you have experienced. You have added some, just let go of a few.
I guess visualizing the model or map is a bit like a maze or a series of rooms. You expand it and navigate it by finding a path outwards. Having an idea or belief sometimes means you get stuck in a room for a while and a new idea or just letting go of one lets you find the door or the window or it creates one. (Paraphrasing Yohami – that he could just see the path.) Some people never get out of the room. Its within anyone to find the door to the next room and rooms.
I guess once you can see the path and take it and it works – you get to a place that becomes the new reality. What you focus on expands. It is easier to look over and see where other people get stuck once you find it.
Same with top guy – you can adopt that idea rather then think I’m not top guy or not a top guy yet. Adopt that general belief or idea or frame and the action should start to flow from it.
Maybe you need to separate out the Top guy idea and the feed back loop that you associate with Top guy (and lack of the feeling or feed back which makes you associate with Bottom guy).
You can be sensitive to the feeling being given out in that you have antenna to pick up on the signal loop – but that should be separate to the Top guy idea. There is nothing wrong with feeling the feedback (good or bad) but don’t let that impact the Top guy belief/ frame/ idea. Or at least I think these are two separate things.
Man, thanks so much for sharing this story. It’s exactly what I needed to hear, since I’m going through it myself. Even though logically I know it’s the girl who is fucking it up, it’s still emotionally difficult, especially since (like you) I really like her.
Also, I think a lot of guys have similar experiences, but not enough guys share them, so it’s easy to take things personally when it’s the girl’s fault. I blamed myself – what did I do wrong? Could I have played it differently?
As always, your posts give a reality check to game, things I need to hear to offset the unrealistic expectations set by the pickup subculture. Your story really hit home, made a difference. Thanks for risking being honest and vulnerable.
>> when it’s the girl’s fault
>> logically I know it’s the girl who is fucking it up
…let’s get back to this:
>> And that sucks. I think she is into me. And she is fucking it up right now. But my life is about me. About what I can do. About my role. About my next steps. Always. This is on me. It always is.
— Nash, from the post
I shared this story on purpose, exactly because this happens, even to guys with relatively high experience. I do want to show support for guys, and to let them know, that even as I “train hard,” and have for years, this still happens to me.
…and I give a shit. I do. I am “modeling” being “real” here. I’m doing this on purpose.
(And all this can be part of the path to someplace glorious… there is a part II here… stay tuned… I’m being more than obvious about what comes next in this story…)
… but, it’s on us. Always. Because it’s OUR life. It’s OUR life, and we are forever responsible everything in our lives. It’s unfair (and also a bit realistic), but it’s GOLD STANDARD FOR MEN.
And the way we control for girls “sucking” is… we accept responsibility for everything… but don’t be afraid to FIRE THE GIRL. She is your responsibility, forever, until you fire her (or you die). This is our role as men. We don’t have to put up with bad behavior… but we never abdicate our responsibility.
It’s OUR SHOW… nothing “equal” about it. This is not about the little girls. This is always about us.
(This ^ is actually the “root” of dominance, as I see it. If you want the power to dominate her… you ALSO take responsibility in situations like this. In all situations.)
But, as for BAD BEHAVIOR FROM GIRLS…
And we are back to being “less available” for girls like this. Even though we WANT TO BE AVAILABLE. I get it. That is what I am saying here.
And most of us don’t enough options… so that is why we are committed to GAME. GAME can give us enough options, so that we can “afford” to fire a girl.
GAME is our protection against “bad behavior” from girls. It’s a little bit of a “dotted line” for me, but it’s there…
A.) We have options… she was once just “an option” –> B.) Some girls are trouble and we CANNOT fix those girls –> C.) We go find other options.
Maybe I am alone here… but this is profound for me… that “dotted line” part.
I feel so often that I MUST FIX THE SITUATION… and I know that is a fool’s errand, much of the time. The answer, often, is HAVE ENOUGH OPTIONS TO WALK AWAY… and that… fixes the problem, and/or keeps it from happening in the first place… and we have to actually walk away… not to “get a reaction from her” (that would be “fixing the problem”), but actually to hook up w/ the next girl.
This is not a tactic. This is a lifestyle of a superior man.
Last summer when Siren cut me off in July… that… would have really fucking hurt. But I “gamed my way out” of the pain on that one. I did NOT fix her, or the situation… and I really wanted to. I took myself to better pastures. And it worked. I did NOT get “closure.” I didn’t “bury the pain,” either… I just fucked some new girls… and let time heal me.
It wasn’t a tactic… it was the wise thing to do.
For me… it had nothing to do with her. It never does. It became about me… and the new girls.
I say all this… because I am not encouraging us to chase girls beyond what is “good game.” Or to be in asexual relationships. Or to blame her. I’m not. I take full responsibility. This is MY SHOW. It is always OUR SHOW.
>> Also, I think a lot of guys have similar experiences, but not enough guys share them
But ^ this, I really believe in. And I’m willing to put this out there… to “not look cool,” to face guys like Victor and Magnum here, as they tell me I’m looking like simp… I’ll face that, to build a little camaraderie with my brothers.
Let’s be tough as fuck. Let’s be badass. Let’s build amazing lifestyles… but I’m going to be a little REAL, as well, while I do all that.
>> things I need to hear to offset the unrealistic expectations set by the pickup subculture.
Yeah. This is real. I have enough experience now to see through our own BS… but I’ll make it explicit in my own life… I’ll make it real. I like to brag. I wish I could brag more. But this blog is about the TRUTH.
>> Your story really hit home, made a difference. Thanks for risking being honest and vulnerable.
I’m glad. Thank you very much, for saying so.
And go kick ass in your life. This is on you. If we want our cocks sucked, we do the work (approaching and “inner game”) or it’s not gonna happen. Let’s do the work.
But when you do the work… and still miss the target…
You are not alone, my brother. That’s real.
Now go talk to girls.
VictorRaven is being harsh and direct but I know he’s coming from a place of “tough love” with the intent to help you improve. Have to say I came away with some similar thoughts. I know exactly how frustrating these 5 dates must have been, we’ve all been there more than we’d like. I’ve been getting more LMR and ghosting the last 6 weeks and haven’t figured out why. So know that I’m sharing these thoughts constructively as a fellow traveler on his journey to improve:
1. She’s mid 30’s and that age group tends to take more time and dates to sex. Nothing wrong with that, she sounds hot, but all other things being equal it means more time and resistance to sex. Yet another reason why I prefer younger women :)
2. Your first date was a restaurant date. I know you said you enjoy this (I do too) but I’d suggest trying a shorter drinks date first. With the restaurant date off the bat when she hasn’t earned that level of investment yet you’re setting the frame that you’re pursuing her instead of her needing to win you over on a drinks date. Restaurants are perceived by women as high investment, save it for date 2 or 3 or if you start seeing her regularly. Give her the gift of having to win you over.
3. I suspect her age, plus with the high investment of multiple dinner dates, put her in in the mode of evaluating you as a potential boyfriend instead of lover, which meant she put you on a slow timeline for sex. This also likely meant you slowed the seduction timeline down, and you may have missed her “buying window”. Feels like by how the 5th date went that’s what happened (subconsciously she feels “if he hasn’t seduced me by now he’s not sex worthy”)
4. When I was in Japan last year I found the girls responded especially well to leading and boldness. I scheduled all my dates right next to my hotel, so either after a drink on date 1 or after dinner on date 2 depending on my calibration, I’d pull the girls to my hotel room. I didn’t ask them, I simply said, “let’s go someone else for another drink” and they’d follow. I closed all four girls I did this to in the week I was there (two on date 1, two on date 2), even though I don’t even drink alcohol. I’m not saying this to brag, but only illustrate what’s possible with less talking and more leading.
5. Hard as it is when you’ve dumped so much time in a girl you like, but I’d also suggest having a cutoff where if you haven’t had sex by a certain point, you write her off. It’s worth it for your own internal frame and sanity. For me it’s the third date. Last year for example I closed a virgin on date 3, so this is a reasonable cutoff for all girls. I find if you haven’t closed by then, either you’ve made mistakes and presented yourself as a potential boyfriend (which causes girls, especially older ones, to make you wait) or the girl herself has something else going on with her.
I find if you’re on point with your game, most girls will sleep with you by the 2nd date, 3rd at the latest, which I know is your experience as well.
Sharing all this in the spirit of improvement. I wasn’t there with you, but this is what came to mind. Thanks for continuing to set the stage for these excellent discussions by putting yourself out there.
Thanks for the thoughts, Magnum.
>> Yet another reason why I prefer younger women :)
Love them, too. I was dating other younger girls while I tried to “spin this particular plate.”
>> I know you said you enjoy this (I do too) but I’d suggest trying a shorter drinks date first
She doesn’t drink. Over 50% of the girls I date… don’t drink. I can do “coffee”… but coffee is not really an “adult date.” Drinks, yes. And then… dinner.
There is something about my filtering… that I get a lot of virgins… and a LOT of non drinkers. And I LIKE THAT. I am dating a slightly different pool of women. I still believe in “AWALT”… but mine don’t drink… and are often virgins. So “drinks” is out.
I do the “virgin drinks” sometimes… which is cool… but mostly, “let’s have drinks” is a “no” for these girls.
>> With the restaurant date off the bat when she hasn’t earned that level of investment yet you’re setting the frame that you’re pursuing her instead of her needing to win you over on a drinks date.
No dis to you, Sir… But I happen to think all this ^ is community BS. We say this… but a coffee date can also show “too much pursuing.” That is in a man’s eyes… not in how he chooses to spend his time.
The dinner is often for ME… I have to eat. Eating is normal. The community is off on this point, much of the time.
>> With the restaurant date off the bat when she hasn’t earned that level of investment yet you’re setting the frame that you’re pursuing her instead of her needing to win you over on a drinks date.
I want to argue here… but I know that at least some of the time you’re right.
I don’t think “dinner” is the thing. Again, I think that’s overplayed community BS.
But there IS a guy that can tell her, “drinks at 9,” and then fuck her that night. I know that is THE WAY TO DO IT, for many guys. I don’t know if I’m just “not that guy”… or if the girls I date “don’t do that”… or if the girls I date DO DO THAT… but not with me.
I know from other real guys in the community (at intermediate or below) that my stats are NOT any worse than theirs. They may do “drinks,” but they still fuck on the third date. Krauser, very often, fucks on the third date. So dinner isn’t stopping me from keeping up with that… much of the time.
Hmmm… I don’t know.
>> I suspect her age, plus with the high investment of multiple dinner dates, put her in in the mode of evaluating you as a potential boyfriend instead of lover
I escalated HARD on her, on every date but date one (and even then… tons of sexual spikes). And she was telling me “no, no, no” as I tried to kiss her IN THE MIDDLE of the 2nd date, right before I tried to take her home (this was before desert)… her calling me “abunai!!!” (= dangerous). I tell every girl I am dangerous… and I do it while pulling their hair and putting my lips on their neck (I usually do that, at dinner, BTW… my dinner dates do not suck). I try to kiss them fast (maybe too fast)…. never “on the doorstep,” always in the middle of the date. I tell sexual stories. I touch… A LOT.
I hear you… but I think those typical community stories are very limited. They apply to “Bob” as he tries to take her to “dinner and movie” and doesn’t try to kiss her until date 3. That is who that “anti dinner” advice is for. I have enough experience to know “dinner” isn’t the thing… or it can be offset with other elements of game.
I wish I could find this one story of Krauser dating this one girl… 6 times… and not fucking her… even though he tried… he just liked her… and couldn’t get her to do it.
>> what’s possible with less talking and more leading.
I love your Asia stories, man. And ^ Yohami would love this… action trumps words.
You know Krauser is telling us to “communicate with grunts and shoves?” I love that.
I know I have work to do here… this is a powerful note. Maybe my favorite thing in your comment here.
>> I’d also suggest having a cutoff where if you haven’t had sex by a certain point, you write her off
>> I closed a virgin on date 3, so this is a reasonable cutoff for all girls
I think this is a good point… but I think the “for all girls” is off for me. It may be a good cut off point FOR YOU… “with all girls.” Emphasis on you, not an arbitrary time for the girls. Miss Thick was date 4… best lover of my life. Best sex I’ve ever had… on date 4. And 100 times after that.
It’s about arousal… which is not a “fixed point.” This is more of what I”m getting from Yohami.
If I can’t get her aroused… then I should cut her off. But if I can… play it from there.
But you’re right… not endlessly. I cut off a Thai girl in 2016… had her in my bed 4 times… couldn’t get her naked… and now that I think about… never saw that girl aroused either. Who knows why.
Thanks again, man. I’m looking fwd to working with you on our upcoming post.
Viva Magnum Game.
“The sleep had done what actual sleep almost always does for a couple… it bonded us. We felt close.”
^In that moment, for sure. But one or two days later, what she thought was: “we slept together but *nothing happened* ”
Also, two days of radio silence in my opinion is bad. In these circumstances either you keep up (keep texting her every day) or better to ghost for real, like for one or two weeks (so to make her think “maybe I’m not enough good for him” or “maybe I should have put out, now he found another girl”.)
I don’t like the fact she brought chocolate on the 5th date. Looks like an act of “friendship” to me.
The 4th date was crucial and your mistake AFTER it, generally speaking was this: you “slept with her” and, whatever are the reasons, you didn’t fuck her (again: she doesn’t think “I didn’t let him fuck me”. She thinks: “he didn’t fuck me”). So now you are the “gentle and sweet guy”. Which can be totally fine for her in order to decide to fuck you. BUT, insisting for sex after it, also verbalising it (“bring your pijama” ecc.), created a short-circuit in her brain. “Who is this guy??” she now asks, “is the sweet man who slept with me without fucking me or a guy who’s begging for sex and maybe hasn’t had it in a while too?” Still more important, she may think. “Did he have an AGENDA??” (to fuck me). Girls usually dont wanna fuck a guy if they think he has an agenda to fuck them. (which is why once a player get “busted” rarely can recover the situation).
>> The 4th date was crucial and your mistake AFTER it, generally speaking was this: you “slept with her” and, whatever are the reasons, you didn’t fuck her (again: she doesn’t think “I didn’t let him fuck me”. She thinks: “he didn’t fuck me”).
She was on her period…
>> “Did he have an AGENDA??” (to fuck me). Girls usually dont wanna fuck a guy if they think he has an agenda to fuck them. (which is why once a player get “busted” rarely can recover the situation).
I don’t buy this path in pickup… not for me. I would like to be more “indirect, direct,” but girls always know I want to fuck them. It’s explicit. Always.
Girls are not dumb. I know being too “teenage horny” is not good game… but men pretending this isn’t about sex is also bad game (IMAO), and is also shit inner game. That’s my POV. I never hide my sexuality.
This is something I don’t personally like about the “let’s watch a movie” route to closing. It’s pretending you’re not going to try to fuck her. I know it works… but I never do that. At home, I go from making out in the kitchen, straight to my bed… almost every time.
When I tell girls to come home with me, they fairly often say “and do what?” It’s a clear shit test.
And I always tell them I am going to “makeout” with them. They know what that mean.s Fuck yeah I have an agenda. Of course I do. I hope she does too.
On date three… when she wasn’t on her period… and we were making out… and I was definitely trying to fuck her… I told her… “I want to fuck you.” It was part of the makeout… it was hot… and not much of a secret… pretty obvious as I was trying to pry her clothes off and sticking my tongue in her ear at the time.
Thanks for the comments, man.
Part II is coming soon… I’ll have more to say.
sometimes, high quality girls require a lot more work. and sometimes, these girls are WORTH IT.
with baby E, i spent many, many hours of long text game — she was living in another city — and then went to visit her three times before i got the bang. now, baby E is growing closer and closer to me, and sex with her is thrilling, sexually and emotionally intense, and HOT as hell.
the men who don’t understand the incredible beauty of modest, demure, feminine girls, they are the ones who complain the loudest at long game. maybe because they have never been with one of these beautiful girls?
that’s too bad.
Riv I agree some girls are worth more effort than others.
But when I read your post I have to say the comment feels a bit like putting some girls on a pedestal. Modest, feminine girls are just as sexual as girls who revel in their sexual power, they express it in different ways and only for the right man.
Yohami summed it up nicely: “the best players get the easiest game”
Personally I find if I’m on my game girls take about the same amount of time to seduce. If things are going past three dates I take that as a sign I’ve mismanaged something along the way, or there’s something wrong with her (mental hangups, other guy in the picture, etc).
A seduction that takes longer is not an indication that she’s “higher quality”, it’s a reflection of your leadership in the dance.
I’m not saying some girls aren’t worth four dates and that those girls can’t lead to being something special. But I am saying if it’s taking four dates or more you’ve got room to improve, and things could have progressed faster. It means she wasn’t sure about you and needed more time.
great comment, magnum, i just made a few small corrections:
“Riv I agree some girls are worth more effort than others.
But when I read your post I have to say that maybe the comment feels a bit like putting some girls on a pedestal. Some modest, feminine girls are just as sexual as girls who revel in their sexual power. Some express it in different ways and some only for the right man.
Yohami summed it up nicely: “the best players usually get the easiest game”
Personally I find if I’m on my game, some girls take about the same amount of time to seduce, others don’t. If things are going past three dates, I take that as a sign that maybe I’ve mismanaged something along the way, or maybe there’s something wrong with her (mental hangups, other guy in the picture, etc). Or maybe not.
A seduction that takes longer is not necessarily an indication that she’s “higher quality”. Maybe it’s a reflection of your leadership in the dance. Maybe, or maybe not.
I’m not saying some girls aren’t worth four dates and that some of these girls can’t lead to being something special. But I am saying if it’s taking four dates or more, then maybe you’ve got room to improve, and maybe things could have progressed faster. Or maybe not. It’s hard to tell. Maybe she wasn’t sure about you and maybe she needed more time. Or maybe you did things perfect.
The key thing to remember is that in game, there are no absolutes.”
maybe you’re right!
high quality girls = good girls? = K girls???
>> sometimes, high quality girls require a lot more work. and sometimes, these girls are WORTH IT.
I think many girls of “high quality” (=… high self esteem?… “k girl” values?? etc) do require more time. I’ve quoted Janka twice about why that might be so… they know they have a personality that takes more than “2 drinks” to express. They know that a man can’t appreciate them for more than skin-value in a very short time frame, so if they want to be seen for more than that… they need to “pace us.” Janka really says that well.
I also think her personal insecurities might need more time… and that is “normal” in many ways. And that could be, as Magnum says, about other guys (her current BF, her ex, some bad experience in the past), or it could be she thinks the “threshold” of sex is particularly meaningful.
I happen to find it meaningful as well. Not that I need to go slow, or that fast can’t be great, but that it is “meaningful” as well… but I won’t assume a girls internal dialog about that.
Or maybe she’s trying to keep her n count down… because she knows that a “car with too many miles is worth less than a car with fewer miles.”
And she would be CORRECT about that. Smart girl. I don’t blame those girls for moving a bit slower to keep their resale value up.
>> the men who don’t understand the incredible beauty of modest, demure, feminine girls
Riv… I don’t know about this… but I tend do agree that modest/introverted girls won’t leap into it as fast as Western cock-carousel girls or extroverts. That seems obvious to me… that there would be a difference.
And that low notch count girls would be slower than high ncount girls. Also seems likely.
>> Modest, feminine girls are just as sexual as girls who revel in their sexual power, they express it in different ways and only for the right man.
Yes… definitely AS SEXUAL… but that is not the same as QUICK TO SEX. Those two variables are unrelated in my estimation. So it is possible to have great sex, that is not fast sex. Again, Miss Thick was on that pace. Maybe I could have had her in three… I tried… with better game, sure, maybe. But it took four, and that felt fine. And the sex has been +++++ Her sexuality is off the charts for me… and she was slow to sex… and even slower to INTIMACY.
>> Yohami summed it up nicely: “the best players get the easiest game”
Here I want to be careful in understanding we are in DIFFERENT SEXUAL CLASSES as players. I consider myself intermediate.
It might be that Magnum is advanced. And that he sees “effortless” sex. And that is valid, and a goal of mine. But that doesn’t mean his standards should apply to “intermediates” or “beginners.”
Segmentation by skill and experience, and how that means different tactics apply… and different timelines… is greatly undersold in the community.
It is not one size fits all.
[…] *as written on nash’s blog. […]
Checked in here for the first time in a while and, as always, a pleasure catching up on your travel tales.
A few questions and then a few thoughts…
D’you know much about her past dating/sexual experience? Did she just get out of a longterm relationship? Why do you think you date so many girls that are sexually unavailable/less available e.g., virgins and girls like this? Or would you dispute this claim that they are below average in sexual availability?
Do you have any boundaries in terms of how many dates you’ll go on before things get sexual? And have you had any experiences where you ended up going on 5 or more dates with a girl you met via daygame before things got sexual and you ended up having (satisfying) sex and it being worth it?
“NASH: Beautiful girl…
NASH: I WANT TO SEE YOU
NASH: When are you free?
NASH: Come touch me.
NASH: Hi Pretty Girl
NASH: Too long.
NASH: I need to see you sooner.
HER: I want only dinner tomorrow…
HER: Is that okay??
HER: Because I work early on Monday morning.
It seems to me you are abandoning your leadership role in the courtship dance. She is setting the terms (just dinner) and more importantly, they are not terms you are happy with, but you go along with it. That’s probably why it ends up being a crappy date.
Sure, a girl can put out some token resistance about how she ‘has to wake up early the next day’, but it’s clear this is something different, this is genuine.
You are also being needy IMO, literally telling her “I need to see you sooner.” Over text there’s zero non-verbals, zero foreplay, zero context, zero ways to see what state she’s in, to calibrate. In person, you could basically say the same thing but through your tone and calibration convey that it’s from a place of desire rather than neediness, that you’re giving her an invitation rather than an ultimatum. It’s hard to do this over text.
But that’s really an aside…the biggest issue here IMO is not being needy, but that you are pushing her into corner. I think what is happening at this point is she is feeling some pressure and wants some space to breathe and the best move is to take your foot off the petal but instead, you double down.
Instead of telling her “I need to see you sooner” you could say something a bit more chill and open-ended but still honest like “I’d love to see you soon. Let’s play by ear… :)” I’m sure there’s a better way to put this but something like this releases the pressure and conveys your non-neediness. It wouldn’t surprise me if you had texted her something like this and then dropped off for a few days for her to message back keen to see you sooner. This sort of thing has happened to me before.
Now there are more meta things here like maybe early on you could filter out girls that are less sexually available etc etc but this is getting long… I’ll be interested to hear how the story ends. or maybe it’s just begun?
>> D’you know much about her past dating/sexual experience?
No… she is reserved and quiet about talking about sex. Maybe I’ll say more in my next post.
>> Why do you think you date so many girls that are sexually unavailable/less available e.g., virgins and girls like this?
I don’t think I date that many girls that are “unavailable,” except for the virgins. I think I close a normal percentage of girls I get into bed (except this last Fall, where I lost a lot of them). Not as many as Yohami or Magnum or Krauser… but for an intermediate guy?? I think I’m doing fine. Vs most guys… I’m killing it.
The Virgins… it’s because I like a certain look. A modest, conservative, Asian girl. That turns me on. I like a “frightened little bunny.” Girls that blush or that are visibly nervous turn me on. Or a girl that looks like that… on the surface. The girls I fuck don’t seem to be timid once the sex starts.
>> Or would you dispute this claim that they are below average in sexual availability?
I said this in another comment on this post… but QUICK TO SEX and SEXUAL ABILITY are mostly separate variables, as I see it.
If I want to talk about EXCELLENT SEX… like very good… I think it’s generally rare. Like most high quality things.
FAST SEX… is not that rare. SLOW SEX… is not that rare. But GOOD SEX… is a separate thing than either of those… and is likely about chemistry and many other factors beyond a players ability. I come with every girl… that’s not the issue. But “magical, losing my mind, ‘in love’, ‘seeing God'” sex… that is rare.
To say more… “getting off” is easy to find… “a very good” time is a little more rare, but I get that almost every time I fuck a girl… “getting almost everything I want” consistently is rarer still, I’d say >50% of the time… “seeing God” I’ve only had happen with three girls in my life…. and only one in the last ten years, or since I’ve been a “player.”
>> Do you have any boundaries in terms of how many dates you’ll go on before things get sexual?
I said this yesterday too… my new rule, as of yesterday… is IF I DON’T SEE AROUSAL… then I need to cut it out in probably two dates. If I see arousal, both of us are turned on… I would keep going… for at least five dates, apparently.
I wouldn’t wait forever, but getting turned on… is hot. If that’s happening, and I don’t have another, better date… I would chose to do that again.
Giving you chocolate on dates, how Japanese of her. Of course, you had asked for chocolate. She should have given it earlier in the date, it seems.
Now that you have been in Japan for a long time, do you find that Japanese girls are more difficult to game? Are they more reserved? Would you have gone on five dates with no sex, and kept trying, if it wasn’t a Japanese girl? I mean, normally a guy would give up after that, I think.
I have never understood why girls will refuse sex even when you both have your clothes off, you are touching her intimate parts and she is touching yours. I have sometimes performed oral sex on some girl, with fingers inside her, and she has still refused sex. And sometimes we have slept in the same bed, but nothing. At that point I have to wonder, what are they protecting? What are they preserving? Their dignity, after that? One might say propriety demands going all the way at that point. Where’s the sense of shame that should come after receiving and not giving? In this case, you had your hand between her legs – at that point why not have sex outright? I’m a bit frustrated from an experience last year, with a Chinese girl. 4’11” and super cute, in her twenties but could have passed for being in her mid-teens. Had her topless in bed, but no more than that. And now she’s back in China. Oh well.
“I have never understood why girls will refuse sex even when you both have your clothes off, you are touching her intimate parts and she is touching yours. I have sometimes performed oral sex on some girl, with fingers inside her, and she has still refused sex. And sometimes we have slept in the same bed, but nothing. At that point I have to wonder, what are they protecting? What are they preserving? Their dignity, after that? One might say propriety demands going all the way at that point. Where’s the sense of shame that should come after receiving and not giving?”
this is great writing. compelling.
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