Guest Spotlight: Magnum Game | Black Dragon Influence
I got into game to get more chicks naked. That is true. But… it’s a side effect of game that as I run around the internet yammering about girls and pussy all the time, I have ended up meeting other players. Sometimes that sucks (I have met some weird guys, and that is saying a lot considering I have low standards). Other times… it can be a real pleasure. My friend Magnum is one of those guys that is genuinely cool in real life, and the man has game that consistently impresses me.
This is a story that features a bit of Magnum’s game.
The idea for this post started as Magnum and I chatted via WhatsApp when I was in Japan:
MAGNUM: 2nd date with a freshman from [an American University]. Dinner at my place. But couldn’t close
MAGNUM: She came with her mind made up on her line on the sand. Will get her next time :)
NASH: I would love to see some of your pre-date texting
NASH: If you want to share the sequences that get girls back to your place
NASH: I’ll do a post on it, if there’s a theme
NASH: Guys are craving examples
MAGNUM: Ah ok
NASH: We’ll do a “Magnum Game” piece
That’s how it started. And here we go. But first, a little more about Magnum:
We first met up sometime last year. He contacted me and we had a drink, traded stories, talked game.
My first impression of Magnum was that he looked like an “approachable” superhero. He is close to my age… in his 40s, but a little younger than me. He’s tall, athletically built. Good style, carries himself well. Very solid presence to this guy.
In fact, I only mention his age, as he and I have yet another thing in common… we both like young girls. He is consistently fucking girls 15-20 years younger than himself.
Magnum runs mostly online game. He has sent me pics of some of the girls he’s fucked… I’m always impressed. I’d say his quality is usually better than mine, with girls as young or younger than I date.
All of this got me curious about his “text game.” That is the point of this post… digging into his texting to see some fresh examples as an opportunity to learn.
If we know he starts online… and we know the doorway to IRL from online is “messaging” of some kind… then we know the first half of what lures these girls to him is his text game. Let’s assume he has good pictures… (I’ve never seen them and I don’t care, as his pics are mostly irrelevant in terms of learning potential for the rest of us)… but the texting… that made me curious.
What kind of messaging game is this guy running that is getting young girls into his bed?
I asked him to send me some of the texts that led to lays, and he did. We picked one example that we liked, and we’ll feature it below.
But first… there is this:
“My online game is literally by Black Dragons book so not worth a post. But that’s where the first few exchanges take place.”
Okay. Magnum may not think that is worth a post, but a lot of us reading this want to see the whole thing… from the “root to the fruit.”
The inclusion of Black Dragon theory made the post conceptually even better for me, because… I really don’t know much about Black Dragon’s game. I have read his blog here and there, but he’s not someone I have studied. But he IS someone that is well known in the community… I hear him referenced all the time.
By the time this post is over, we will have watched Magnum run some game, and also had a brief introduction into some of Black Dragon’s coaching we well.
“A lot of guys try online dating with high hopes. They stress out while making a profile, trying to get every word right. They pore over their photos, trying to find the best ones. Then they wait for all the hot babes to email them…
“And they get nothing.”
— Black Dragon
That ^ is from the sales page for Black Dragon’s Ultimate Online Dating Manual. I am no expert on Black Dragon’s game, but I took a look at that online dating product so I could produce this piece.
I will confess I didn’t expect much. No disrespect to BD, but I have seen a lot of “how to get laid on Tinder” kind of products and I’m rarely impressed. With that said, I was surprised to see how much of BD’s product looked like very “good game” to me. I like this product better than what I have seen on his blog, and the process of writing this post did a lot to generate real respect from me for his work.
Right on, Black Dragon.
But let’s get back to Magnum, and girls, and trying to get laid…
“Example 1: Summer 2017. 24 year old Chinese girl, just moved to my city the week I opened her after being in the US two years. Slept with her on the 2nd date. We dated from July until the first week of January where frankly I let her drop out of my regular rotation to have more time to chase other girls.”
That is a great intro. We get a sense for the girl. And that part about dating in an ongoing way is a personal goal of mine… that is exactly the kind of scenario I think has the highest “payout” vs the effort we put into this type of work. Not just a notch, but “recurring revenue” with YHT.
The example Magnum sent me is a good place to start to understand his game. We get to see that it took him two dates to close (more on that below)… and we can see he is the kind of man that is willing to risk the “safety” of a given lay for the opportunity of novelty and new sexual adventures (because he dismisses her)… and we also can see that girls he is dating come back for more (which says a lot about his level of quality as a man).
“I’m excluding the first few exchanges online because it’s straight from Blackdragon’s http://www.onlinedatingsuccessnow.com/.”
Okay, so as I indicated above… I think this story is not as cool if we can’t see the opening comments.
Magnum didn’t supply them, and that is okay with me… I’m happy to keep his particular lines private. I’m also happy to save the bulk of Black Dragon’s system for guys that want to pay for that product. But I will sample a few lines to give you a sense of how Black Dragon coaches guys to hunt.
“Honestly, openers are the least important part of the entire online dating process. Your photos and profile are far more important. Your messaging conversation technique is also much more important. Your date pitching is more important. If you’re doing all of those things correctly, tweaking your openers is a waste of time (provided you’re already doing it correctly) and is very unlikely to improve your results.”
— Black Dragon
This ^ kind of comment makes me trust BD. That’s solid.
I don’t do online game (not at all), but there are some clear fundamentals that cross over from online to night game to daygame. In this case, the first impression is more important than “what you say.” That is true on the street as much as it is online. Daygamers don’t have “photos” or a “profile”… we make our first impression with the swagger we have on offer as we approach. But it’s an excellent point that “what you say” is a fraction of why she might find you attractive. BD is on point there.
With that said, I want to show this process from start to finish… so here is more from Black Dragon on how to open:
“Formulating the ideal opener for maximum response and minimum wasted time is very simple. Just follow all of these rules:”
— Black Dragon
Again, I want to respect BD’s intellectual property, so I won’t list his rules. But I will vouch for them. That product is full of good content. There were several notes that reaffirmed things I already know and helped me try to show more discipline in the messaging I send to girls. Good stuff.
“Here are some real life examples of some openers I’ve successfully used in the past:
! You seem interesting. Take a look at my profile and if you’re curious, just say hi.'”
— Black Dragon
There ^ is something specific.
Is that a “secret hack” to pussy paradise? No. (There are no hacks.) But again, as BD says in his comment about openers in the quote above, the opening line is hardly the crucial bit. And I would add that it’s not about what BD is doing in that simple example, it’s a lot about what he is NOT doing… he has more to say about all that in his product.
“The rule of thumb is to pitch the first date within three exchanges of messages between you two.”
— Black Dragon
That ^ is hardly a secret either, but it helps to know that BD likes that structure as well. “Rule of thumb” is a great way to say that… as in “this is a guideline.”
For my part, I usually try to get to the date invite pretty quickly. I like two-three exchanges as well. I was talking with a new wing of mine last week (Mr Philly, great guy, also runs online game), he asks the girl out on the opening message (and his rationale for why is excellent).
In the way of some contrast… I am reading Krauser’s Daygame Infinite right now, and Krauser can draw out the process for many, many messages… and Daygame Infinite has some insanely brilliant examples of how and WHY Krauser would take that route.
There is no “correct” structure here, but BD is in good company when he recommends “within three exchanges.”
For now, we know Magnum run’s BD-style game, so let’s assume something like that opener above, and we’ll get back to Magnum’s case study.
“After 2 exchanges in the online app I pitched the date.”
Here is where Magnum’s game gets a little more personalized and he starts sharing specific details with us. Below are some actual texts from this case study.
I don’t know the exact messages that lead up to this, but we can assume he opened in the BD style, a couple of comments were exchanged, and then this:
MAGNUM: Let’s find out over a simple drink.
MAGNUM: Saturday afternoon or Monday after work are open for me at the moment
MAGNUM: Let me know if you’re up for it and I’ll pick us a nice place
This ^ is straight from the screenshots of messages with the girl that Magnum sent me.
“I give her two options and also let her know I’ll be choosing a place. All she has to do is tell me what works.”
And I almost laugh to see it… as it is very close to how I pitch dates.
Here is an example from me from when I was in Japan:
NASH: How about dinner on Sunday… Or a drink on Friday afterwork?
If you notice, Friday and Sunday are two days apart. That is a common strategy for me. Magnum and I have never compared notes on that aspect of the process, but we’re doing similar things. I pitch a specific day (which is strong, clear leadership), and then I pitch a 2nd day two+ days later, to give her another option.
Here some more from BD’s product:
“Just giving her two days with no times attached gives her a wide open opportunity to find time within those two days. Much higher odds of success.”
— Black Dragon
Of course I like that, and BD strikes me as articulate in his rationale.
I sometimes DO say: “Friday, 7 PM, XYZ Bar.” And it works. And Yohami has been coaching us to say “tell me when you’re free and I’ll take you out.” And that works too.
But I like BD’s comment that two days (in my case, with at least a day in between), with no times, is a perfectly good strategy. You can see how even as a committed daygamer I could learn from Magnum and BD’s online game via these examples.
Back to our case study:
HER: Late Saturday afternoon might work. It’s weird for me to drink in the day tho…
HER: XYZ works better for me – my place is close to it
HER: Got my first plant today :)
There ^ is her response to Magnum’s date invite.
Another thing I like about this example is that she rejects the “drink” concept. If you know my game and the girls I like… they mostly don’t drink. And the London Daygame Model is very “have drinks” oriented. This is a good example of how “taking her for a drink” (and/or expecting alcohol to be a part of the seduction) can be a narrow view to the full range of scenarios that lead to sex.
I happen to know that Magnum doesn’t drink, but he DOES use alcohol venues… and so do I. I know several places with “virgin” cocktails where I can take advantage of the “adult atmosphere” of a bar, and still get time with girls that don’t drink (and/or… are too young to drink).
“She also picked the neighborhood which is rare for girls to do, and normally I don’t like when they pick a place, but in this case it was convenient enough for me and knowing it would make her logistics easier I rolled with it. In retrospect she doesn’t have a car so she likely wanted to ensure the date was walking distance.”
MAGNUM: Saturday at XYZ it is. Let’s meet at this place:
MAGNUM: [Link to date spot]
MANGUM: 5pm work?
MAGNUM: Nice plant btw
HER: See you then Magnum:)
MAGNUM: Message me your number in case something comes up.
There you go. The date is on.
“This is where we transitioned from online app to texting. I prefer getting to text and off the online dating app as soon as I can. This allows me to do photo pings and this also mentally increases the intimacy, as it’s now the same format as her friends and other men she’s dating. On text I’m no longer one of the randoms on the online apps.”
Here they switch to the phone (instead of the app) and reengage:
HER: Hey Magnum it’s [her name]
HER: Happy Friday lol
MAGNUM: [Her name] the buyer of flowers
MAGNUM: Morning :)
MAGNUM: [pic of the sunrise]
MAGNUM: Caught this nice sunrise from my place this morning
MAGNUM: Going to be a beautiful day
HER: You’re such a morning person :)
“Above after her saying hi you can see I skip being boring and spike things a bit by giving her a nickname (‘XXX the buyer of flowers’) based on the photo she shared with me of a flower she bought for her new place. Then I snipped and stacked with a ‘window to my world’ photo (hattip to Krauser).”
I will do yet another plug here for Krauser’s Daygame Infinite. For this kind of messaging… all this pre-date message exchange… Krauser is beyond masterful. In Infinite he shows pages and pages of transcripts like we’re doing here, but with excellent side notes about WHY he does what he does… and WHAT HE LEARNS from the response from the girl. That guy is a genius and I cannot recommend Daygame Infinite enough.
I’ll do a full write up on that book soon, but for now… back to this date:
HER: Just ran to [train system] from [train station]… out of breath : )
MAGNUM: [photo ping of a cat passed out, on its back]
MAGNUM: Hmm I’m picturing you on the train something like this :)
HER: [she responds with her own cat pic]
HER: Lol tried to use sunglasses to cover my tiredness and stay cool lol
We have two “LOLs” in the same sentence here ^. Looks like we have a happy girl on the line… she is into it.
For all the reasons he mentions above, Magnum is smart to move off the dating app to his phone. I also do a TON of photo pings with girls. I did several today. I have a folder on my phone with 100+ images, some I have used over and over and over. Cat pics. Cocky shots of Donald Trump. Gifs of wolves howling. Some sexy shots.
I am a big believer in the idea that a “photo is worth 1000 words.” And more than that, images can inspire emotions, and we want an emotional response from these girls. If your personality can mix well with this kind of photo game… I recommend you make an investment in getting good at using pictures to invigorate your seductions.
Next, Magnum rolls off for a day, and then pings her again the next morning:
MAGNUM: Just back from the gym and feeling ready to take on the world ;)
MAGNUM: See you at 5 kitten
“She hooked on the sunrise and shared about her morning, which I then used to tease her again and give her a new nickname “kitten”. I used this for the full five months I ended up dating her. Note she took the name well and continued with the frame…huge green light.”
HER: Ready to take on me ? Lol
HER: Just had dim sum : )
A few hours later…
HER: Hey sorry I’ll be 10 minutes late
MAGNUM: See you soon
MAGNUM: At the back table
“It took me 30 minutes of my standard 60 minute first date to win her over with a strong frame, positive vibe, teasing, and challenging before moving in to more comfort and making her qualify herself.”
Let’s pause and note this ^. He does a “standard 60 minute date.”
“This girl is on the high end of Asian attractiveness (I’d put her at an 8 but I’m bad with the 10 point scale) and she knows it. She’s from a well to do family and was a bit of a princess who needed to be knocked off her pedestal.”
“She shit tested me by saying, ‘I could have been a model you know,’ and I laughed at her and said ‘yes so could I.’ This worked because I didn’t skip a beat.”
“I won her over on the first date and did my standard ending of the date after an hour. I also didn’t try to kiss her or extend the date after that, and I could tell that left her doubting herself when I hugged her goodbye (she confirmed this months later)”
MAGNUM: Enjoyed our time together yesterday
MAGNUM: [her name] liked how you laughed more as we spent more time together
HER: Lol really?
HER: That means I was getting more comfortable and opening up as we spent more time together ; )
“Majority of time the man needs to text after the first date. If I want to see her again, I do this 24 hours or so afterwards.”
“Note my ping after the first date is brief, and I call back an element of the date. This gets her memory back into the positive emotional state from the date so she wants to come out again.”
It’s rare we get to see another man’s game at this level of detail.
That kind of text, where Magnum say “Enjoyed our time together” is what I call a “validation text.” I assume girls are a mix of feelings (I know I am, much of the time) and as I see it, this kind of text helps her classify the date as “good”… you’re both “checking in” to keep the seduction cohesive and also doing emotional leadership.
“If a girl texts you first after a date that’s a huge IOI and then it’s OK to schedule the next date right there. But otherwise always wait 24 hours or so after the date to text her.”
Totally agree. In fact, I give a girl a “+1” in terms of value if she’s the kind of girl that sends me a “validation text,” thanking me, telling me she made it home, or saying she had a good time. I like it… it’s good “girl game.” It’s also a sign of politeness and culture. And… a good indication she’s leaning toward “yes.”
“I knew I had her attracted, and my goal at this point was to get her on the 2nd date for which I always pitch dinner at my place. I knew in this example the 2nd date was just a matter of nailing down logistics and then leading her to my place.”
There is some more back/forth where Magnum teases her about being a “party animal,” and then:
“Once the attraction is there the game is played in comfort, but you still have to lead like a man.”
MAGNUM: Let’s meet up again for dinner miss party animal.
MAGNUM: Tomorrow or Wednesday after work are open for me right now
MAGNUM: Let me know what works best and I’ll pick us a nice place
Here ^ he is setting up date #2.
“I almost never ask a question in my texts unless it would be weird not to do so. This communicates leadership. Girls either comply or push back, but then you know where you are and you filter out the ones who aren’t interested in you enough to be compliant, or if they present small objections you roll with them on a case-by-case basis.”
HER: Hey I’d love to, Mr Palm Reader lol
HER: But I’m usually exhausted after work
HER: And it’s usually pretty late after I commute back from [some city] around 7ish : )
MAGNUM: Ah yes the tired kitten :)
MAGNUM: Let’s make is Saturday for dinner. 7p work for you?
HER: I have a better idea if you are free in the day this weekend
“Here I pitched the 2nd date but she snatched the frame by saying she had a better idea. This was a red light and I had to consider how to respond.”
“In this case because I could feel I had won her over on the 1st date and because there were so many green lights before the red light of her pitching a different date and not following my lead, I decided to roll with it. She pitched an afternoon event she came across, she was new to this city and I sensed she wanted to explore the city and have some masculine company during the day and not just for dinner. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win the war.”
MAGNUM: Hmmm ok, but only if we do dinner afterwards. I’m a man and need to keep up my strength ;)
MAGNUM: Let’s meet at this little place for an ice cream. It’s a short walk from there:
MAGNUM: [Link to ice cream place]
MAGNUM: 4:30 Saturday work?
“Note that I showed reluctance by starting with ‘hmm’ and then also put a condition on my acceptance: that we still do dinner after the event. This was me maintaining the lead but also showing flexibility and social acumen.”
HER: I couldn’t tell you an ice cream guy lol
HER: Yea 4:30 it is
MAGNUM: I’m very mysterious
HER: I’m obsessed with solving mysteries
“Note the huge green light again with her saying, ‘I’m obsessed with solving mysteries.’ This was a ‘Yes’ girl.”
The date is set and she’s obviously all over it. Looking good. This is all on TUESDAY of that week.
On SATURDAY, Magnum pings her with a pic:
MAGNUM: [pic of a cute dog]
MAGNUM: Just made a new friend :)
MAGNUM: See you at 4:30 at the ice cream place miss curious
“I waited four days before pinging her the dog picture. In retrospect that was risky and I should have texted every 2 days instead during that week, but the attraction was strong enough this didn’t end up mattering.”
HER: Awww look at her innocent eyes
HER: See you soon Mr. Mysterious
“2nd date went to plan. We met at the ice cream place and walked across the street to the event.”
“My goal was to keep it short without it seeming so, and then uber her to my place where I made her dinner. I seeded this during the event by mentioning the Korean BBQ I had at my place to cook up, so the ‘excuse’ was ready when it was time to uber. During the ride I small talked and kept it positive and light to preempt any ASD. Then at mine it was the quickly cooked dinner and chat on my couch, and after dinner kissed her and escalated to sex. No ASD whatsoever.”
+1 Magnum Game.
Okay, there you go.
The interesting part for me is inviting her back to his place for dinner as the second date. He didn’t kiss her on the first date, nor before he brought her back to his house.
I know Yohami has coached Rivelino to try to kiss her before you bring her back to your place. I personally often try to kiss the girl in the middle of the first date. But as I think about it, I have waited until we were back at my place to try for the kiss several times since I’ve been back in the US… but that’s not my usual plan.
In this case, I think Magnum read her attraction level very well, knew he was in charge, lead strong the whole time, and so sex was a natural conclusion for that date.
Looking back across his texting, you can see him leading well the whole time. I find that vibe very familiar, as I try to lead constantly. And he is right that his flexibility around both the timing of the 2nd date (Saturday, instead of his original proposal of weeknight) and then accommodating her request for some walk-around time likely helped him get laid.
Why did she push to go to that event that day instead of dinner? Did she know she was going to get fucked and her hijacking the plan was some “womb management” meant to derail the seduction? Maybe she was just “coming up with something fun to do,” and it was basic entertainment planning? But I don’t think so.
I think she knew she was going to get fucked… and her FOREBRAIN wanted a little more comfort while her HINDBRAIN put up the tiniest bit of resistance to getting naked. Magnum ran good game in the daylight part of that second date, and any resistance was gone… after that, he led well and +1 for him.
I like this example of Magnum’s game.
We were going to use a more simple date-to-lay that Magnum sent me, but as he and I talked about this post, he was right… this example has more “game” in it. It’s less straightforward and that is a good thing… as so many of our seductions do have twists and turns. Magnum negotiated all that well here.
And I like this kind of post because it’s very “in the trenches” of what it’s like to take a girl from lead to +1. Texting is a crucial bit of what gets us laid. He met this girl online, but everything we show here would be about the same if he met her via daygame…
So much of our love lives are in the spaces between the characters of our texts. I wanted to show more of that “work” in this post.
What am I taking away from it? The leading, mostly. That is what I see most clearly in this example. He does an excellent job of leading every step of the way. Well done.
And Magnum is using light, flirty teases, quite often. I would do the same. And I would point out that when those kinds of exchanges come easily… when both you and her can joke/tease back and forth… yeah, that is a strong set up for “yes” and potential sex.
And then the “edge” for me is the dinner date. You could almost call dinner their third date here. She got him to do the daytime thing… and that was almost like another date. And then he got his dinner. He was very smart/solid as he ties her daytime event back to “only if we do dinner afterwards.”
“Only.” That’s strong. That is a risk. I’d be curious to have seen what he would have done if she had pushed back on that? He had good compliance, she liked him, so she doesn’t confirm the dinner part, but she passively accepts the frame. What if she resisted on that date? What if she had said, “I’m kinda tired,” etc., and didn’t come back to his place for dinner? We don’t know. But again, she liked him…
The attraction he created throughout this thread is a lot of why we don’t see resistance. “Resistance,” as Yohami would say, “is for Bottom Guy.”
Inviting the girl to dinner at your place… I still think that is bold/risky, and me feeling that way is a sign of inexperience (and perhaps weakness) in my game. And it’s interesting as I have introduced Pancake and Magnum, they are friends now, and they both do that dinner date at their place. It works for both of them. Makes me curious to try that.
I do dinner dates all the time… often at the first date… but never at my house. Magnum doesn’t do dinner first dates… we saw his model:
Date #1 is one hour. No kiss. It’s all a set up for date #2… which is part of what we wanted to show here. And date #2 is dinner at this place.
And the dude gets laid.
This post was a good exercise. It took me a while to put it together, and I have already incorporated a couple of small tweaks to my game based on what we’ve seen here.
Big Props to Black Dragon. I am grateful to have seen some of his stuff and I feel good endorsing that product we link to above.
And my sincere respect to Mr Magnum. First off, as a friend. I like the guy, and I’m very glad to share thoughts and stories with him. When I was in Japan we were messaging a lot and we have some brotherhood between us even though we’ve only been face to face a couple of times.
I am grateful he was willing to share his game with us, and give us a little peak in BD’s offerings.
Viva Magnum Game… and my thanks to you, brother.
Here is some Yohami coaching about kissing BEFORE bringing her back to your place. It’s from Riv’s blog, and I mentioned this above:
“Dont get me wrong – you can bring a girl to your place before she’s ready, and keep amping there. The problem with it is that she knows that is a place where sex can happen, and if she goes there before she’s ready, then in her mind she will have drawn a line to NOT have sex, and when you escalate physically you’ll face that barrier that she draw before going in. So it’s a waste of time. But if you also dont want sex and want to take things slow, yeah, take her to your apartment and dont try to have sex. Just chill.”
^ Great post from Riv. I agree with Riv’s point that some girls need time… and Yohami is giving us a “higher level” read. Riv is not “wrong” (not in my experience). But Yohami is showing us another POV.
This is in contrast to Magnum’s style. No right/wrong. We’re sharing multiple angles on this topic.
Yohami is talking about kissing her on the same day you’re planning to bring her back, though. Blackdragon recommends kissing the girl in the bar if you’re going for a same-day lay.
For the two-date method, the mood clock almost resets between dates. You’ve done all the hard work on the first date and pre-framed the close. Now, she knows that sex will happen on the second date.
Also, on the second date, hopefully you’re kissing her and getting her in the mood before you escalate.
>> For the two-date method, the mood clock almost resets between dates.
Yeah. I think this is mostly true. Often, the girl is a bit reserved on date#2… and we sort of start over, even if getting her warmed up doesn’t take as long the 2nd time.
Although sometimes… I can see that sparkle in her eyes right when we meet up. And it might be 2X as bright as the first date, as she is more into it, knowing what it’s about and choosing it with emphasis… after fantasizing about see you all week.
I have seen both.
I like Blackdragon for a couple things:
– General “life advice” (inner game)
– Tracking metrics in everything you do
Unfortunately, he’s been out of the game for a few years, and online dating advice dates itself very fast. It was clear by reading his online dating manual that he hadn’t adjusted to the Tinder generation. “Messaging apps” are more or less dead, swipe apps are everything.
When compared to current PUAs of today, I don’t think his Game advice holds up.
TWO OPTIONS vs. LETTING HER CHOOSE
Magnum and I have discussed the merits of giving the girl two options vs. letting her tell you when she’s free. I tend to do the latter, while he does the former. We agreed we’d settle the debate via A/B testing, but I haven’t really put in the effort to do that yet. In any case, my feeling is that giving the girl options works better for younger girls, who will be less busy, and are less likely to be able to make decisions on their own. However, for older girls, especially in the SF Bay Area where I live, they’re going to have something going on almost every night of the week, and so giving a girl only two options inevitably means she’s going to say no to both.
A line I’m liking recently is “What does your week look like for meeting up?”
In a daygame interaction, one thing I learned from Todd V is to suss out that information while you’re going for the number close (“seeding the date”). That way you don’t lose value by pitching two days she might not be available. You can also use this period to find out if she’s a drinker, where she lives, etc.
TWO DATE METHOD
I often use the two date method, but not exclusively. I’ve found that girls are so flaky in SF, you almost *have* to close them on the first date, or you’ll lose them forever. I generally use the two date method:
– on “rules” girls (ones that won’t have sex on the first date)
– on older women
– if I actually have something to do the night she’s free, so i’ll meet her for coffee for an hour
It is nice for removing LMR, though. Like Blackdragon, I hate LMR. It almost destroys a lay for me if I have to fight LMR. I want sex to be easy, and thus it’s easy to play it safe and go for the two-date close.
I think using a two-date close on slutty girls is the wrong move, though. Although I know Magnum has told me he sometimes reads signals and invites the girl back on the first date.
Yes all good points.
It’s hard to know which of the options have the best outcomes since you can’t A/B test with the same girl, but my gut feel is that the two date model as Nash illustrated in this post has the best odds for getting laid.
I do look for signs of interest on the first date and will pull a girl home on the first date if it looks “on”, but more often than not when I do I get a lot of ASD or end up not getting the lay. Also, I find the one date model works best if you do multiple venue changes and get a couple of drinks in her, but this can end up being more face time spent than the two date model I follow (as Nash nicely laid out above).
With the two date model once she agrees to come to my place I rarely get ASD on that 2nd date. So my sense is that the odds are better with a two date model. In addition, with the two date model I’m usually getting laid with about 3 hours total face time with the girl, so I find it’s efficient vs a long first date that can go hours and then have ASD.
Although my first date flake rate is high like everyone else in this city we’re in, my flake rate on 2nd dates is fairly low. I’m finding in the two date model I can pretty much tell halfway through the first date whether or not I’m going to sleep with that girl. Something clicks like on the first date with the example in this post.
It’s worth trying different options for yourself but this is what works best for me.
excellent explanation and logic.
>>Although my first date flake rate is high like everyone else in this city we’re in, my flake rate on 2nd dates is fairly low. I’m finding in the two date model I can pretty much tell halfway through the first date whether or not I’m going to sleep with that girl. Something clicks like on the first date with the example in this post.
Krauser has a great section on this in Infinite.
His model is a short first coffee date. Then, go on to a second date. So if she shows up for a second date, she’s very interested.
So minimizing time on first date, maximizing results.
He also talks in that book about the signs of when “something clicks” that makes the girl decide she’s going to allow your cock inside her. He calls this “The Switch”.
I love BlackDragon, but honestly Krauser’s Daygame Infinite is superior in many ways.
Btw, Nash, BlackDragon is coming up for a book that is very relevant to us: The Ultimate Younger Woman Manual.
I think you might enjoy getting your little dancer paws on it. Maybe even spotlight his method that is tailored to dating women 15+ years younger than him (and other cool older gents that are into the much younger women too).
It’s supposed to have the right frame, the right ways of being and presenting yourself so that a much younger woman is much more likely to enjoy, be comfortable, and prefer us mature men over them young boys.
MAGNUM… hey, man. Thank you again for the collaboration on this post.
I’ve gotten some good feedback offline to this piece. Guy’s liked it. Good deal.
Viva Magnum Game.
It’s been fun working with you on this Nash. I’m glad guys found it helpful
Hey Pancake… good to hear from you, man.
I want to “argue” with you about a lot of things here (surprise, surprise!). I’ll start here:
>> they’re going to have something going on almost every night of the week, and so giving a girl only two options inevitably means she’s going to say no to both.
Okay, so… TRUE OR FALSE: Girls always keep the plans they make??
I think we both know the answer to that.
So girls will find time for men they like, maybe especially for men they really like. Schedule conflicts are real… but if she wants to see you, and she’s not a pain in the ass, she’ll find time.
I like giving her the time/place (or two times… with the place after she agrees) because it works better with more PASSIVE GIRLS (aka FEMININE girls).
This ^ is a real consideration. I want time with “girls I like.” And often that means passive/feminine girls. And those girls won’t “help” with logistics… not as much…
So “tell me when you’re free” becomes “help me plan the date.” I don’t like it. It’s not “wrong,” but it’s sub optimal for me.
>> So girls will find time for men they like, maybe especially for men they really like
Keep in mind that nearly every time I see a girl, I’m meeting her for the first time. No daygame/nightgame interaction, no first date. There’s not much way for her to really like me. Once you’ve gotten compliance and investment from a girl, you can make her break her schedule.
>> A line I’m liking recently is “What does your week look like for meeting up?”
This is like Yohami’s date request (“tell me when you’re free”).
And where I think this kind of angle has a lot of STRENGTH… is that you end with girls that are “leaning fwd” toward you. It becomes a screening mechanism. You end with girls that are into you enough that they will help you seduce them.
Yohami is coming from TOP GUY world, so this is true more than it is for me (or other cold approach guys, and guys that are still building/finding their “value”).
And this can be IDEAL… as you have an “upward spiral.”
— You start with very HIGH VALUE STATUS in her eyes (for whatever reason)
— You don’t lead as hard, so she has to participate/invest more
— She loves your value, so she does it…
— You feel her attraction/effort, so you get internal “chemical” hit of Top Guy status
— Your swagger ramps up as you get this participation and positive feedback
— She sees all of your value, plus the +1 swagger…
— It’s on…
This ^ is the TOP GUY VIRTUOUS SPIRAL.
In general, I love it… but if you’re not Top Guy… this will get you fewer dates (as you’re asking her to help lead/plan), and fewer reference experiences… and for a guy like me, that will retard your growth… making it harder to get to Top Guy status.
SO… I would consider “tell me what your week looks like for meeting up” for girls where I think they’re more BOLD and/or VERY INTO ME already.
Otherwise… lead, lead, lead. Don’t make the girl work. Show her the “menu,” let her point to what she wants. Lead, lead, lead.
Try it and then compare.
My theory is that Asian girls like the ones you date are much less likely to be able to make those sorts of decisions, they’d prefer to just choose a day and have you tell them when.
I don’t really see how “When’s the next evening you’re free” is making them do work, though. All they have to do is think about what they have planned in the next few days and choose one day.
Whereas if you give them two days, they have to think about those two days and let you know which one works better. The “cognitive load” is nearly equal.
REAL WORLD EXAMPLE from one of the girls I fucked in Japan…
NASH: Hey, I want to see you.
NASH: When are you free?
HER: After school and weekend
So here ^ is a problem with asking her to supplies times.
She did. And where did that leave me? I still had to be specific. And I still had the problem of her rejection specific times I might offer. But I had the added problem of extending the back/forth. And I think I looked lame for not handling this properly in the first place.
BETTER FOR THIS GIRL:
NASH: Hey, I want to see you.
NASH: How about after school this Thu/Fri… or maybe dinner on Sunday.
That ^ is leading. It’s specific. Very little work for her to do here. She can now say “yes/no” to any of those options.
She can also “see” in her mind what the date might look like (“I’ll see him after school on Thu”) and that is something that removes uncertainty… and makes it real.
Try this man:
“When are you free? I’ll take you out”
The line above starts rapport and breaks it, ends with a lead.
“NASH: Hey, I want to see you.”
This is your desire, but it’s not a lead
“NASH: When are you free?”
By ending with a question, now you’re going with rapport.
“HER: After school and weekend”
And this is why her answer is not necessarily compliance for your move – you didn’t do the move yet.
Try the line and see how it works for you. Or better try the whole approach, aka don’t make the girls do ‘yes/no’ situations, instead put them in a position where their response is automatically a YES.
Putting a girl in a situation where she has to decide yes/no is tussle.
My 2 cents.
[…] Nash: “Magnum Game with Black Dragon influence.” An excellent post. I love reading game writers because they make me realize my game is not […]
impressive post and write-up, very well done nash, magnum, and black dragon. definitely in the trenches. loved it!
“my standard 60 minute first date”
“I won her over on the first date and did my standard ending of the date after an hour. I also didn’t try to kiss her or extend the date after that, and I could tell that left her doubting herself when I hugged her goodbye (she confirmed this months later)”
THIS is fascinating. i have heard this once or twice before, don’t remember who said it, but i think it could be a good technique for me to try out — clearly it’s working for magnum.
i think it could be good for me because a lot of times on first dates, i feel like i try to extend them too much, and try to create too much comfort, and try to go for the kiss, try to bring them to my apt — i simply come off as too needy and horny.
i LOVE the idea of breaking if off before she expects me to break it off, WITHOUT trying to kiss her or anything, and leaving her second-guessing herself (“am i not pretty enough for him?” “was i too boring?” “did he lose interest?”) — it’s a BALLSY move, very ballsy and strategic.
for other guys, who are much more callibrated and advanced, obviously they don’t need it, before someone with “too much comfort” problems like me, i think it could be just what i need.
[…] VERY interesting post on nash’s blog. […]
I’m curious if the older guys (35 and up) use their real ages on tinder, etc. I haven’t done much online dating, but I am open to supplementing my game with online for more dating practice. I agree with Riv, the 60 minute first date with no kiss sounds like a great angle. Cheers.
I’m 43 and the average age of women I was with last year was 23, mostly from online. For tinder I follow Pancake’s outstanding guide to tinder, it’s the best guide to tinder I’ve seen anywhere:
For the facebook profile for my tinder account I have the age set at 20, but then I use tinder premium and hide the age. That way I show up in the queues of the age range of girls I’m interested in and they can judge from my pictures whether or not they’re interested. For sites that require putting in an age I go for the age that I think I look like: usually about 35.
They key for online dating is having good pictures, and of course looking like those pictures in person.
If when we meet a girl ever ask my age, I always make the guess before I tell them the real number (usually good to make a girl jump through a hoop of your own before you comply with a request of hers). Not once has age been an issue. There is a sizable subset of younger women that prefer older men and the whole Christian Grey experience. Keep in mind though their expectation will be that you have your shit together and have strong game…this subset wants men not boys.
>> For the facebook profile for my tinder account I have the age set at 20, but then I use tinder premium and hide the age. That way I show up in the queues of the age range of girls I’m interested in and they can judge from my pictures whether or not they’re interested.
Excellent. I was just thinking about doing this, I’m now going to try it. I noticed that 20-year old accounts see almost exclusively younger girls in the queue.
Here’s what I like about BlackDragon’s module:
1) You go to a date that you’ll cut short. This is ‘breaking rapport’ which is intrinsically attractive. On this date you constrain yourself which prevents you from overescalating, so you won’t be ‘too eager too soon’.
2) At the same time on the back of your mind you’re just screening for date 2, which is a given ‘sex date’.
The combination has the chance of putting you on the right frame. You go to the date, will have fun and screen her, wont be too eager, and will be acting as a given that sex will happen.
Here’s how BlackDragon is wrong as well
1) The constraint that you apply on yourself prevents you from going ‘too eager too soon’ but also will make you lose on the windows that she gives you. If she wanted to be kissed and you didn’t escalate, and specially if she wanted to meet a lotario who would savage, then you look like a nice kid in comparison.
2) The girl who does come to have sex with you on a second date would have likely also banged you on the first date.
So my advice is to get the good part which is the framing.
1) Go to the date knowing that sex will happen, now, or soon
2) Pay attention to the state of the girl, arouse her, kiss her when she’s ready, escalate, take her back to your place or hers or the bathroom or the park or whatever the situation indicates. If it’s date 1, cool, if it’s date 3, cool, but it should be as soon as the situation is optimal and your job is to make that optimal with A) logistics and B) Game.