NYC: Chinese Fashion Girl vs Yohami’s Greatest Hits, +0
This girl is my last, and richest story from my NYC daygame trip. I’ll do a wrap up later on broader themes, but this is the last girl-specific episode from New York. In this story we have another “close call report.” It’s another “pull” and another +0. And a mix of frustration and pride to end a difficult but interesting experience of daygame in NYC.
When I announced this trip I mentioned that while I’m having some great sex with Miss Thick, I haven’t had a new lay in a while. Sex, but no new girls. The “notch hyena” howls with neglect.
It occurs to me as I write this, that perhaps I am in another “cocoon stage” of this path. That is: some dormant, non-thriving stage where I am going through a metamorphosis (collecting a new chorus of reference experiences), and changing from one state to another.
That is likely some mythical bullshit right there ^, but this story had a lot of learning moments in it. So did this trip. I’m still, very much, trying to learn from these days of game.
In that spirit, I was rereading some old posts of mine. Many aspects of the story about this girl — Chinese Fashion Girl — are almost identical to other girls I’ve dated and written about. I was looking at those posts and the comments from “the mythical Yohami.” That guy has some red-hot knowledge about this dance. Several times on the dates with this girl I thought “WWYD” (What Would Yohami Do?)??
So this post is a story about a girl from NY. I’ll go over my two dates with her. And it is also a showcase of Yohami’s thoughts as they apply to my real-life situations with daygame girls. And how I’m trying to learn from what Yohami has to say, revisiting his lessons date after date. Again and again.
(EX: He has been kicking my ass in comments this week. It’s humbling, but I’m grateful.)
First, some back story on her…
I was out with Runner on my 2nd day on the street. The Chinese Fashion Girl was the 26th girl of the day, 2nd to last. One of five leads that day. This was one of my best days out on the street that week, and I should would have kept going, but I had a date with the teenager, so I cut off game around 6:30 to get ready for my date… but let’s stick to this particular girl.
Fashion Girl is relatively short (which I like very much), maybe 5’2″. She is thin, certainly under 100 pounds. She is not supremely beautiful, but in the approach, and in all the time I spent with her, I was unapologetically into her.
Runner and I were out on 5th Avenue and I was about to approach when she cut to her right and opened the large glass doors to Topshop (Topshop NYC, not London). My vibe flows pretty well for in-store game. I approached, she took it well… in a quiet way.
Quiet. That is a big part of what she is all about. I like that about her.
Right away, the spell was in effect. I think for both of us. We had good chemistry and
I felt drawn to her. At this point in the trip I had done almost 60 approaches, but the quality of the lines coming out of my mouth were different with this one. Not “great game,” but more authentic game. Slower game. Richer game.
David Burn at LongBurnTheFire posted a few notes about winging me, and he says that I “found something about every approach to increase [my] state.” David is a smart guy, a great daygamer and an excellent wing… but that is not exactly correct. He saw me in two sets back to back where something special was going on with the girl. Shorts sets, but special ones. Neither of the sets David saw me approach even hooked, but they both “did something” for me, and I came away feeling “alive.” My Fashion Girl here was another of these “special” interactions. She lit me up. And unlike the two David saw, this one hooked.
I took her WeChat. I also gave her a sticker, one of a big batch I had brought to NYC. It looked a bit like her. She liked it. We were connecting on art. She has a serious art background. Two separate art degrees from high-end art schools. She is currently a textile designer.
Here’s how the opening messages went (a variant on Tom Torero’s classic opener):
NASH: You were very charming today.
NASH: Are you always so kind to strange boys from California?
“Kind” is callback from when I approached her. And if you know Asian folks… they use “kind” a lot. And to the structure of Tom’s post… I like this flavor of “question” as a way to engage her on the ping.
HER: Haha, nope. I not always kind to people who chat me up on the street
HER: But I found you are an interesting person so I wanted to stay and talk with you
By “street” she means Topshop (she is fucking up my story here). But you can see her “yes” in these opening messages.
HER: Have you been walking around on the street talking with girls and giving your stickers all day?
NASH: Haha… all the girls talk to me.
NASH: I am so innocent
HER: Innocent people never say they are innocent. : )
This ^ is a great example of what she is like.
She is deeply feminine, but she speaks her mind and shows her intelligence in everything she does. All this took place later that night, after the pickup, but this kind of energy from her is likely what drew me too her in the shop… that quiet, conservative cleverness.
There was more that night… and I reopened the next morning. I called her “shy” (something Sundance and I have been experimenting with). She rejected that… but hadn’t gone silent. I might have been over-gaming her, but she was still with me. I offered a date for that night (the day after I met her), or “maybe” the next day.
HER: I’m not sure I can meet today maybe tomorrow.
NASH: Hmmm, okay.
NASH: Maybe tomorrow could work…
NASH: Let’s have tea when you’re off work…
NASH: If we’re having fun, I’ll take us to dinner.
HER: Sounds good.
More of the “maybe dance.”
So, Wednesday I had no date (yet), so I hit the street, and had a long, painful awkward day, but ended up on the i-date late that night with the Preacher’s Daughter. The next day was Thursday. Two nights left in the City… and I had my potential date set up with this Fashion Girl.
She almost cancelled (I know this only because she did not, in fact, cancel) because she had food poisoning (not sexy), but she came out anyway. I actually think she intended to cancel that afternoon, but I lead well. Sensing she was about to back out, I asked her where she was, found a meetup spot on Google maps between her and I, sent her the location, and made the date happen.
If I hadn’t been confident, and hadn’t led well in that moment, this story would be over at this point. “She cancelled. The End.” But that’s not what happened.
HER: Nearly there
HER: Come out please
She showed up.
Our first date started at a Starbucks on the east side, near 5th Avenue. Tea. Conversation. She was wearing delicious perfume and was generous about giving me her wrist for direct access to the girly smell she wore. In fact, she reapplied it all night, clearly for me. Good girl.
She went to art school in London. And her quiet voice comes out of her mouth with a slight British twang to it. She speaks slowly. I don’t think she is a bubbly, or overly happy girl… but she was having a good time with me. I was enjoying her.
I put us a in cab and shuttled us over to the west side to what turned out to be an excellent Japanese restaurant, the best meal of my trip.
Cutting through Central Park, we made it to the restaurant. She got a bit queasy on the ride over, saying she still felt sick and that her blood sugar was low. She rolled down the window to get fresh air. She said she had intended to cancel, but didn’t want to disappoint me.
By the time we arrived she was happy. We sat side by side, eating excellent food and chatting. I touched her a lot.
After dinner she said she needed to get home and I walked her to the train station.
Great vibe. I did my “c’mere” at some point and she rejected the kiss.
That was three girls in three days not kissing me. Fuck you, NYC. In some ways that sucked. In some ways, it made me proud.
As we took a long walk in the warm October evening toward her train, I tried several more times to connect to those lips. She rejected me each time, but she loved it. Like so many girls, she seemed to like it more and more each time I tried.
I had other girls messaging me that night (and was planning on running game all afternoon the next day, so SDL was possible…), but this was a good date. I liked her and she liked me, which made me want to invest more time in the potential of she and I.
At the station, I had made up my mind: I was going to offer her my last night of my trip (which was the next night). This was strategic… given the good date. The fact that I’d tried to kiss her (over and over) made the context clearly sexual. The fact that she liked it meant we had a good frame for sex if she’d see me again…
As we arrived at her train I asked if she had plans for the next night… and she said she did. I know my face betrayed some brief disappointment, which she seemed to enjoy. But she had an odd smile on her face. And then she said, “… with you.”
Oh. She got me there. She is a clever little thing. Good deal.
So it was on.
The next night, we met at 6 PM. I researched yet another restaurant near her train stop and we ended up having a fancy dinner (which was more money, less fun, less comfortable, and less delicious, than the night before).
We connected easily and dinner was fun, despite the stuffy place I’d picked out. As we sat at dinner, I considered my options… she doesn’t drink much. Some, but not much. And she doesn’t like desert. Both those are classic bounces, and I knew neither were her thing. I was going to just go for the pull back to my hotel… that was my plan.
We walked outside and I did just that… pointing out that she doesn’t like desert, but I wanted to spend some more time with her, so she should come to my hotel. It wasn’t explicitly sexual, but it was as obvious as it is here.
She said no. And she smiled. And she said it was fun to watch me run my game (she didn’t say that exactly, but that was the gist of what she said). She said she wanted to spend more time with me (and she was very soft when she said that), but that she couldn’t come back to my hotel.
I didn’t get a “yes,” but she was a happy girl. She touched me as she told me she wanted to spend more time with me. She was into it.
Let’s add in some Yohami lessons now.
Here is something I said in May when I was in a very similar situation with a different girl:
NASH: I said… “Well, now I will give you two choices. You can come back to my place for desert…or we can take you to your train.”
This ^ is shit game. And Yohami let me know:
YOHAMI: See how I’ve been saying that you transfer the power to her and become passive.
YOHAMI: Like this you’re stopping in the crucial moment and having her decide what is going to happen. She’s the one in power:
YOHAMI: My read is that you’re expecting her to do something so you can follow, as opposed to you taking the initiative and let her follow.
Excellent breakdown by Yohami here. I am very happy to lead, but I did give the girl in May “the power” on that date, when I offered her the next steps as a question (AND a choice between two things… one of which was her going home). That’s fucking dumb.
Here he is saying it in another comment from February:
YOHAMI: You transfer the power to her, and make her to be the one in command, so now if she wants the dick she has to verbalize it, which goes against her nature.
He’s right, of course. But that was then. This is now.
In this case, I wasn’t asking. I was clear and made her a straightforward, confident offer. So I had gotten past that level of mistake. I was leading. No “two choices” when that isn’t necessary (or smart), and more importantly, not asking her to make decisions or “lead” in any way. I was (as Sundance would say) “doing my job.”
Since she wouldn’t come to my hotel, I had to come up with something else. I told her about that rooftop bar. The same place I took Preacher’s Daughter the night before. She agreed.
And then, before we went to the bar… I kissed her. Her lips were closed and a bit stiff, but it landed.
NASH: Okay, well, that counts. It wasn’t a good kiss, but it was a good start.
I told her this ^ after the kiss. My chance to playfully play the critic.
HER: You said my kiss is “not good.”
NASH: Yeah, you’ll have to try harder next time.
I was “breaking rapport,” but it was a tease and she knew it. And she smiled. We both did.
A cab. The two of us heading to that rooftop bar. As soon as I had her in the elevator, I kissed her again. And that one was solid. Wet and enthusiastic. I could tell she was much more into it when the kissing was private. Some girls are like that.
The host was the same guy as the night before, and he recognized me, and was very cool to me again. He put us against the wall, under the speaker where it was a little quieter. She drinks (a little bit) so we sipped cocktails. I told stories. I touched her.
She talked about how she is passive. About how she wants a man to do “everything.” She’s got a sophisticated eye and she knows what she wants, but she likes being passive. She loves that I can keep talking at will. She told a story about a guy that got nervous because she is quiet. “Don’t you have anything to say to me?,” he asked her on a date. She did not. What I loved about her (her quiet passivity), freaked that guy out.
And she told me stories about getting picked up. About how sometimes when white guys approach her, she pretends that she doesn’t speak English.
She said she’s not afraid to make it hard or awkward on a guy if she doesn’t like him or if he’s doing a bad job. Girls can be mean, she was basically saying as much, she took some pride in her rejections of those guys. She wasn’t showing off here. She was admitting that we were both in the Secret Society… and that, in her eyes, I was not one of those guys.
And she talked about how some guy picked her up in a park, while she was sitting with her mom. She went out with him a couple times. He tried to “snake seduction” his way into her life by trying to paint with her. (I bet it was too much painting, not enough escalating.) He was boring. She stopped seeing him.
I pawed her thin body mercilessly as we sat on soft leather cushions in the warm air of the Indian Summer. And I held her hand. And I used the noise of the DJ to get close, and whisper in her ear. She was leaning in to me. The bubble was rich.
At some point, I knew it was time. I remember feeling serious.
I told her I was ready to take her back to my hotel. That’s how I said it. And she started to shake her head (in a way many players have seen). I told her that just because she is coming back to my hotel, doesn’t mean she is agreeing to sex. And I clowned a bit… “Maaaaaaaaybe we’ll have sex, but there are no promises.” And she smiled. And I took her hand, and she stood up… and we left.
YOHAMI: …still asking and announcing. There’s yet more margin for you to act and lead and take it. You can use your hands and your body and get it done, it’s easier than to ask, takes less energy than to follow. Let it happen. See where you want to go and go. She’ll come along.
This ^ from Yohami is about another girl, but I think I was close to doing what he is saying here on this date. Yohami likes “physical leading” better than verbal leading (better than giving her choices… better than asking… better than being a passive dumbass).
(I am really getting this ^ part as I write this piece.)
YOHAMI: Yep, you’re getting it. Let’s isolate it here:
YOHAMI: Non verbal communication takes an instant, doesn’t consume your energy (since it’s put to action as soon as you have a desire, you see the path, you take it), and it creates energy
YOHAMI: The nudge is power. The question is not.
The physical leading is powerful. And the verbal-questions are not. I’m starting to get that.
YOHAMI: Good game is when she never has to add a little energy to choose. That’s what I’m referring to when I say that you take the accelerator and let her have the brake, but then you drive in a way she never has to use the brake. She has control but is never required to use it, because you’re the one taking action.
^ Yohami magic, right here.
In this case, I could feel I was doing about half of the work with my body. Just standing up, taking her hand. I did some talking, but this was better than talking.
YOHAMI: So, try it next time. Shut up and do. Tell her “let’s go to my place” and leave it like that.
^ When I said, “Okay, that’s enough, I want to take you home,” I was serious, calibrated, and 100% committed. It really didn’t occur to me she’d say no. But she did. She refused. Mildly. Just part of the dance.
YOHAMI: Dont oversell, dont offer extra comfort, dont do any extra negotiation – there’s nothing to negotiate.
Here I failed Yohami’s test a bit as I said “it doesn’t mean we’ll have sex.” It worked (I think), but is less than ideal. I did negotiate a little bit.
And some part of me still feels like this is decent game. I know I told her “I will definitely kiss you,” and I still like that line. It’s honest, and to me, this is like saying “I know you’re not stupid.” Maybe I should just STFU and go back to the hotel, but I think telling her something she already knows won’t hurt you in this instance. It’s a way to be real. You’re not “tricking her.” She knows what’s up and you’re treating her like a grown up.
When I was in Tokyo, I was using “gelato” (as an alternate to Cheesecake) as an excuse to come back to my place. As Yohami was coaching me about my efforts to get the Chinese Virgin to come back to my apartment in Tokyo, he said this:
YOHAMI: She’ll ask what for, say “same we are doing here but better” or “I have the best gelato in the world” and kiss her.
That ^ is great game.
My Fashion Girl was not into public affection, but I still like this line combined with his note about kissing her at that moment. And this is him doing his “ramp” (I believe), but in an atypical order… he’s not ramping to the kiss. He’s ramping to taking her home, but as he delivers a perfect line, he can then kiss her and she’ll love it. The line is a ramp to the kiss. And the kiss is a ramp to the bounce. Good game.
YOHAMI: When she’s there and you go for the gelato you’ll find, probably to your surprise, how much she’s there for the sex and not the ice cream – even though you NEVER talked about sex.
Okay. Yes. He’s right.
Anyway, Fashion girl was a yes at this point. And we walked the two blocks to my hotel. Across the shiny floors, up to the 15th floor, key card, and there we were… in my room.
I had her put on some music that she likes. And then I pushed her back onto the bed. I asked her one time if she was comfortable, and that was it. For legal reasons and more, I think one clear moment of communication where you check in with her is smart. But I have overdone this before:
NASH: I had told her 100 times she could leave any time she wanted.
YOHAMI: The question is why? what made you say that.
This is from yet another date with a different girl where I kept checking to see if she wanted to leave (that girl was a young virgin, and very nervous). I did it too much. That wasn’t my main problem on that date, but I’ll never do that again. The comments from Yohami there are painful to read, but he is right. And there are some basic lessons there I am still trying to learn and digest.
So Fashion Girl and I are back at my place. I have her on the bed. We’re making out… and she’s starting to warm up. I get her shoes off. I take off her dress. She is in tights and a tank top. The makeout gets hotter… but she won’t let it go any further.
I get her bra unbuckled, but she won’t let me take it off. I tried several times. I push all the fabric aside and suck her surprisingly large nipples (that are on otherwise quite small boobs). She is hot. She kisses me, and likes it when I pull her on top of me. She bites me and grinds on my cock… but will not let me take her tights off. I tried. A lot.
YOHAMI: If you stop being willing to push against a resisting girl (which means acting before time, therefore making her push the brakes and take control), and instead tease and then double down when she’s aroused (which means she never pushes the brakes, and you have control) you’ll likely stop experiencing this stuff.
Here again I think Yohami is right. But I think I was doing some of what he recommends. I was teasing her. I had her turned on. She had a wall, and I’m not convinced it had much to do with me or my (lack of) game.
She was turned on, no doubt. But at each stage when I tried to get us “over the threshold,” she was a real “no.”
YOHAMI: In the big picture you’re telling her to follow you around to many places and she’s doing it. Because she wants the cock. Make sure you make it happen.
He is right, in most cases. And most men underestimate themselves, the girl, and the situations. Most men fail to escalate. I know from situations likes Miss Macau that you lead, escalate, and fuck the pretty thing. But in this case, I don’t know what else I could have done.
This is what was coming out of her mouth that night.
HER: I want to have sex with you…
HER: I know it would be amazing…
HER: But I know that tomorrow I will feel bad
HER: I cannot have sex with you because you are leaving tomorrow.
We spent some time in this stage. I’d kiss her, touch her, push my hand down the back of her tights, or pull them down across her hip and suck her hip bones, and then she’d push me away and make certain her tights returned to her waist.
And then she’d hug me. And kiss me. And bite my nipples. She was sweet, and sexy, and happy… but firm about not letting me go any further.
Goddammit I tried.
Eventually I made other offers… that she should sleep over. She smiled and refused. That we had two beds, and she should cuddle with me all night (if nothing else), but if not that, she could have her own bed (I was assuming that wouldn’t last), but she wouldn’t concede.
YOHAMI: You’re introducing a lot of noise here and disqualifying yourself.
This ^ was his comment from my story of the Chinese Virgin, where I played up not having sex, but just coming back “to fool around.” In this case this was a last ditch attempt to get her to stay… not a perfect story, but dammit I tried. I really assumed she was going to say yes… but she did not.
YOHAMI: When she wants dick all she has to do, naturally, is to put herself in a situation where you can make a move, and she can reciprocate the move by being receptive.
YOHAMI: SHE IS GOING TO YOUR PLACE TO FUCK YOU.
Was she? Was the Preacher’s Daughter there for sex two nights earlier??
Yohami’s certainty is hard to argue with, and yet… not always so.
Here’s what I think:
This girl was close to 30. She is somewhat conservative, but she isn’t naïve. I think she has fucked a few guys, and maybe a few that weren’t “long term” status. I think she has fucked and that was it. And I think it did make her feel bad.
I think she’s right. I never said that to her, but now, weeks after this date, I am agreeing with her. I think the sex would have been great. And I would have enjoyed every second of it, and the sleepover after.
But I think she is right… this particular girl would have felt bad the next day. Her saying “no” was her being wise and self-aware. It was NOT “token anti-slut defense.” It was real ASD.
And it’s not that “fuck and run” isn’t fun and a good thing for some women. I know some girls want exactly that. I know I’ve been with girls that had a very good time with me with fast seduction and a very short-term engagement. That is all true. I have no “purity fantasy” about these girls.
It’s that it isn’t fun for her. Not now. Not anymore. Not in this case.
I believe her.
YOHAMI: All these promises of comfort because you think putting your big dick in her is something she’ll have to suffer or endure or be uncomfortable about, instead of the very thing she craves and needs and came to the date for.
No, that’s not what I think. Yohami gives excellent advice, as most men won’t lead and won’t pull the trigger. I did lead in this case. And I was more than ready to fuck this little girl.
But this one is not trying to ride the cock carousel. Good for her.
I did everything I could to fuck her that night. She liked me very much and sent me some very heartfelt texts after I left town (for several days). She liked me. But she’s right. To get fucked and left in NYC wasn’t going to make her life better. She didn’t need another cocking. Some girls want that. This girl didn’t.
I don’t think I’m being soft or naïve here. I think she’s smart.
Sex is a good thing. For us and for the girls. But there is another side of a man’s knowledge that wants us to have 100+ lays but the girls to have “just a few.” Krauser says he wants a girl to have two lovers: him and her future husband (something like that). I think Krauser and this girl are kind of on the same page here… she’s already fucked a few Krausers. And I’m not her husband. She doesn’t need any more extraneous dick.
YOHAMI: But she did. She knows what’s up. She went there for it.
Yohami is always right.
Except that even though she was in my room, she didn’t want the cock on this night. She did not, in fact, come there “for it.”
So what was she there for? And what about the girl the night two nights before? Preacher’s Daughter wouldn’t even kiss me, but sat on my bed at 2 AM while I ran my hands over her and tried to escalate. She loved it too. The Fashion Girl would kiss and grind, but wouldn’t fuck. She’d lick my neck, but wouldn’t let me get my hands down her pants.
Why were they there?
NASH: I am operating under the theory lately that girls run a ton of completely 1/2-assed experiments. They’re girls, not “master planners,” so they throw up a tiny effort… and often, because of US… that is enough.
This ^ is from a response I gave to a comment on my story about the Preacher’s Daughter. So… I think they liked me. I think I was like that last drink you have at the bar when you’ve already had enough… you don’t need it, but you want it, because you don’t want the night to end.
I think that’s what was up with these girls.
Both those girls liked the buzz I gave them. I think, with more time, the Fashion Girl definitely would have fucked me. And maybe, with the right circumstances, the Preacher’s Daughter might have fucked me too. But on this trip, it was not meant to be.
Fast seduction was too fast for those girls.
I don't know why for some guys it's so hard to accept that for most of the girls fucking a random foreigner will never be a high priority.
— tddaygame (@tddaygame) May 3, 2017
I argued with Tom from TDdaygame when he posted this ^ (he’s since deleted that Tweet). But maybe he is right… they just weren’t that hungry for out-of-town cock.
Fast sex is available, but in general, “six days” is a short timeframe to try to pickup and get laid. It can be done, cetainly, but it’s sub-optimal and you lose a lot of girls as you’re too transient to have much appeal.
TOM TORERO: How long should your trip be? A long weekend is too short, one week is still too tight, but two weeks is the ideal timeframe.
— Street Hustle
Tom thinks “any longer than two weeks, and burn-out/fatigue kicks in.” I disagree. I was loving it at 4+ weeks in Tokyo… but I agree that one week was “still too tight.” For a one week trip, you have to find girls that “only want sex.” If they want anything else… or even “sex + a little something else”… there just isn’t enough time. So you get maybe’s turning into no’s.
I had two seemingly close calls. Two girls in my room, on a one week trip. I don’t think I was amazingly lucky (I think I was a bit unlucky, actually). But I’m proud of what I did.
YOHAMI: She was for the sex the whole time.
Maybe. I know some guy could have fucked one or both of those girls. But I ran proper game. I’m no newbie. My inner game issues are fine, I put in the time on the street, I closed a lot of leads, I got three girls out in 6 nights (four dates total), but I couldn’t close them.
Perhaps with more time.
And meanwhile, I know I’m not making the same mistakes I was earlier in the year. Some of the same mistakes, I’m sure, but not all of the same mistakes.
For the second time that week I took a girl back down in the elevator, happy (her) and unfucked (me). I sent the Fashion Girl home in a car. She left having had a very good experience. She messaged me for a few days after I was back in California… but I let it drop off. It was a NYC thing. It’s over now.
I am left with her slow quietness. I loved the contrast of her slow, feminine quiet versus the endless shriek and wail of the streets of New York. I did. She was charming. I wish I had fucked her. And that she had spent the night. And that we slept close. And fucked again in the morning. And that she was happy about all of it.
But that’s not what happened. It was a bit frustrating. But it was fun. It was a good experience. I’d do it all again.
Thanks, Yohami. And thanks to all the pretty girls that give Yohami a reason to “put me on the anvil” and do his best to “pound me into gold.” Thanks, man. I appreciate it.
You are fucking genius. And I am a willing and grateful student.
Viva daygame.
Great stuff man. I’ll dive in in more detail later, but she told you exactly what was going on.
“HER: I cannot have sex with you because you are leaving tomorrow.”
You: oh really? how long would you like me to stay? (cocky grin)
So she was there for the sex, obviously, but it had to happen in a specific setup – just like every other girl, like, some wont kiss you, some will do anal only, some wont do a one night stand but a one week stand. This one wanted something that wasn’t just one and done – wanted more emotional ramp and bonding, hence all the extended contact.
So pay a visit to NYC and bang her for a week.
Viva Nashgame.
>> You: oh really? how long would you like me to stay? (cocky grin)
— Yohami
^ See. ; ] I’ll use that in Japan (I think my next trip is coming together).
Thanks, man. Now that this post is up, I’m going to dig into your more recent comments.
And I think I have a date with a new girl tonight… so perhaps we’ll have another case study soon.
Viva Yohami.
Good luck with the new girl.
This fashion girls has a lot of dominance to her – her text lines have restrain, knowledge, confidence and usually steals the frame. You start with a tease, she replays with a more fine tuned tease.
She sounds like a well seasoned player. It’s almost as if she’s leading you, except that the lead happens just a little after yours, and tuned to fit you like a tailor made shoe. She echoes your leadership, not with submission but with a very refined leadership of her own.
All it would take is that her text lines come before yours, and she’d be leading and pacing.
Very interesting.
>> This fashion girls has a lot of dominance to her – her text lines have restrain, knowledge, confidence and usually steals the frame. You start with a tease, she replays with a more fine tuned tease.
^ Excellent read.
I pinged her the day I posted this, and we had a fun night of back/forth via text.
But the next day, she went on the offensive. She was very tough. Even blocked me on WeChat at one point… and then re-added me.
She is making a play to come visit me — because I haven’t responded to her suggestions I come back to see her… but she made it “in the negative.”
HER: “I was going to come see you, and I thought it would be meaningful, but… blah blah blah.”
I’ve never invited her. This is all her narrative.
So she wants to come see me, but was sort of mean and controlling about it. She kept trying to tell me how I felt (“You only want blah blah blah”), and I would cut her off, tell her not to tell me how I feel. She was telling me over and over I only want a ONS… so I would try to swallow her frame, take her seriously, but keep my sexuality on the table.
Yeah… I think you’re right about her having some kind of power.
I’m guessing she has some experience (two major relationships, she told me, but didn’t want to talk about them on the dates — one white guy, one Chinese). And I would guess her mom has this kind of power, and she learned at home. I said she was NOT bubbly… I think she’s more of a “dark” girl than a “sunny” one.
She is not close with her family, BTW. Barely talked about them and I changed the subject.
Hah – so she switched to leading and controlling, baiting you with “coming to visit you” as a prize that is being taken away. Yes she’s an alpha girl, a player, and is playing you. Now would she actually take you if you bent to her? or is all just a diversion? if she’s 30 years old she’s likely running out of time. Red flags red flags. Unless you want to marry her and be pussy whipped :-)
“It occurs to me as I write this, that perhaps I am in another ‘cocoon stage’ of this path. That is: some dormant, non-thriving stage where I am going through a metamorphosis (collecting a new chorus of reference experiences?), and changing from one state to another.”
i love this idea! you are preparing for your next big leap forward.
Might be BS… probably is…
But I’ve been working hard in the last few months, and almost no results. I do not assume “I’m getting worse.” I don’t think so. I think this fits the model of a “plateau” of sorts.
These times are good opportunity to keep going… but focus on study and personal growth. Keep approaching, but absorb theory as he field work isn’t offering me much.
^ My current plan.
Im hoping im in a cocoon stage too lol (albeit at a lower leve) trio of girls seemingly (and finally) considering sex with moi but nailbiting too close.
“By ‘street’ she means Topshop (she is fucking up my story here)” — haha good one.
“And then she said, ‘… with you.’ ” — oh!
sounds like you did perfect, you just needed another night with her, and maybe more seeding of possible future meetups (not lying, just telling her what she wants to hear so she can give herself permission to fuck you).
she was horny, she was attracted to you, she felt comfort, she got turned on — but she wasn’t ISA enough (impulsive, spontaneous, adventurous).
her ranking on the ISA scale was low.
also, what happened to the WHIP OUT THE COCK strategy?? i swear, i really do think that works much better than making her put up her guard when you try to undress her.
i know it may sound somewhat counter-intuitive, but during the heavy part of the makeout, fully clothed, whipping it out shows confidence and it TURNS HER ON, seeing your hard cock, and it flows and pops in the way of you attacking her body doesn’t.
you groping her = her needing to maybe “put on the breaks” (to use yohami’s language)
you whipping out your hard cock = she can admire it, get turned on by it, she can get closer to it, or stay further away, and it isn’t an attack on her physical body. she has the freedom and the choice to get as sexual as she wants.
she is not fighting you, defending herself, her tits, her pussy, she is not feeling accosted.
she is feeling happily surprised and excited. something new!
i know we have talked about this before.
>> also, what happened to the WHIP OUT THE COCK strategy?? i swear, i really do think that works much better than making her put up her guard when you try to undress her.
I never do this. I put her hand on my cock, but never pulled it out.
For me “whip it out” is part of another toolset. It’s not wrong, it’s just not my toolset. I’m usually fully clothed until after she’s had her first orgasm.
But I think that idea has merit. It’s been on my mind… I should try it.
>> you groping her = her needing to maybe “put on the breaks” (to use yohami’s language)
Yeah. I think there is something to this.
>> she is not fighting you, defending herself, her tits, her pussy, she is not feeling accosted.
Sundance and I have been talking about “pulling girls on top of us,” so they are in the “drivers seat” and then they get to “attack” you. Over and over this seems to work for me. I don’t wait for them to do it, I physical put them in the position, tell them what to do… and then they take over.
Or with Miss Macau, as I tried to get her naked for pre-sex shower, she was reluctant, and I had her take my shirt off and we were off and moving.
^ This “making them lead” kind of stuff is powerful.
>> you whipping out your hard cock = she can admire it
On this note… I know several girls that like sex, but don’t like focusing on the cock. Miss Lips “doesn’t like to look at it” so she won’t suck cock. I was chatting with the Chinese Virgin from Tokyo last night, and she said “I think it looks ugly.” One of my old lovers loves to get fucked… but won’t look at or suck my cock. It’s not personal with any of those girls… they’re just not into staring down the cock.
Hmmm.
“that quiet, conservative cleverness.” — beautiful and poetic description of her.
overall, KILLER FIELD REPORT and awesome analysis and use of yohami’s lessons.
A+
>> “that quiet, conservative cleverness.” — beautiful and poetic description of her.
I liked that line, too.
Thanks a lot, Riv. And for all your comments here.
Yohami presents his arguments as absolutes. I’m not sure why that is, and maybe he can elaborate on this. My guess is that it’s because he’s been offering advice to clueless guys on the internet for a long, long time now, and the only way he can get through to them is to offer advice in absolutes.
Very clearly, nothing in Game is absolute. Not every girl who comes to your place wants to fuck you, not every girl is attracted to an alpha, etc.
—
I significantly lower my ethical standards when it comes to casual sex. I tell (white?) lies to girls when I’m on vacation. I tell them I have a job where I can work from anywhere (true) and I’m thinking about maybe investing in property there (kind of true) and am planning on returning (also technically true).
When I was living in another city this summer, I didn’t tell girls I was leaving, because I didn’t know 100% myself. But yet, when I finally did leave, I don’t think any of my fuckbuddies actually cared too much. Yet if I had been completely honest with them and said I was only thinking of being there for the summer, some may not have fucked me.
“But not every…”
We’re playing a lego game and there are big blocks and small blocks. Or we’re playing a puzzle game and there are big pieces and small pieces. Or we’re dealing with the world out there, and there are major rules, generalities and principles, and then you have individual variation, combinations, flavors and outliers.
“But not every…”
Not every woman likes alpha men? sure. Also not every woman likes men. And not every woman has a vagina. Not every woman is a woman!
1 is not always 1.
But why do you care about this exactly?
Not everyone likes jokes – but are jokes funny?
“But not every…”
We’re talking about Game.
Game is a very constrained environment.
Game assumes that you’re dealing with heteronormative women, who are attracted to classically attractive men, and are out to screen the top men from the bottom men and would bang the top men and reject the bottom men.
Which covers about 90% of all women.
The whole Game rulebook, all the puas and styles revolve around how to play that game better.
“But not every…”
There are women who don’t like men. Acting masculine turns them off. There are women who don’t like penises, having one turns them off. There are women who don’t like humor, so having a sense of humor turns them off. There are women who don’t like athletic bodies, so being in shape turns them off. There are women who reject the whole male archetype.
But why do you care?
Most women, and likely all the women you’d like to bang are attracted to ‘flavors’ of the thing. They will like a flavor of alpha, and your job in mating would be to find what that is and deliver that – hopefully one closer to your core nature. Also your job is to find your own flavor of alpha, so you can be always ON instead of trying to be many flavors and having to switch on and off while pretending for many different girls.
But again why do you care about this ‘every’?
My read is that when you say “not every girl likes alpha” it is because you’re putting yourself out of the alpha bag, and you’re looking for the girls who wont like alpha but would like you. If so, don’t do that, you’d be doing yourself a horrible disservice.
Continuing.
“Yohami presents his arguments as absolutes. I’m not sure why that is, and maybe he can elaborate on this.”
That’s just how my brain works.
“My guess is that it’s because he’s been offering advice to clueless guys on the internet for a long, long time now, and the only way he can get through to them is to offer advice in absolutes.”
There are a couple of mind traps here: first the whole thing about ‘absolutes’, and then the idea that these are only for clueless guys.
Actually there are principles and generalities.
And when you get a firm grap on them you stop being clueless.
The ‘advanced guys’ have the principles handled, so they can take on all the inifinite variations. You can’t go advanced without having the basis handled.
I hammer on the basics because that’s where most men fail, since most men come from Beta, and the beta framework will attempt to take what fits with beta and use it, thus missing the point (and the girl).
“Very clearly, nothing in Game is absolute.”
There’s plenty of absolute in game.
– Women are attracted to men.
– Masculinity is attractive.
– Higher status is more attractive than lower status.
– Confidence is more attractive than insecurity.
– Leading is more attractive than following.
– Hypergamy.
– Being in good shape and strong is more attractive than being fat and weak.
– Acting like a guy who’s at the top of the world is more attractive than acting like a bottom feeder.
– Etc.
Without these there’s no Game – but ‘games’
For example: how to bang the feminist chick who hates men? sure there’s a way, it won’t be Game. How to bang the christian girl who won’t do sex till marriage and will only respond to betas, extended courtship and providers? it won’t be Game.
Then there’s something else.
When presented with the picture of the Top guy riding the Bottom guy, a segment of girls will pick the bottom guy. My experience is that these girls will take the Bottom guy for a ride and exploit him. So be wary of girls who like betas.
“Not every girl who comes to your place wants to fuck you”
True, but also not every girl is a girl.
But “a girl” in the general sense, coming to your place, wants sex. First the obvious: if a costumer sees a commercial about a pizzeria on tv, then goes to the pizza place and takes a table, do they want a pizza?
Second, an obvious reframe: If you were an unattractive, non sex-viable candidate, for example if you didn’t have the sexual parts she prefers, and you were an unattractive fat slob with no game, would SHE be at your place?
Third, the obvious thing I’ve been hammering: What is she there for? what does she want?
Fourth, the truth, which is the biological setup: you’ve been doing a biological courtship dance. The whole and only purpose of the dance is to evaluate each other (though she’s doing most of the evaluation usually) and that culminates on you fucking and your seed fertilizing her eggs. There’s absolutely nothing else going on. You picked her on Tinder or the street or the club or somewhere because you want your dick in her, and IF SHE SAID YES then she wants your dick in her, and all what’s left is the screening necessary to A) get in the mood and B) make extra sure the whole thing is not a mistake, which is why you’re doing all the dance. But if it’s not you she’ll go back to the pond and find another guy who will do the dance properly and get it done. So:
“Not every girl who comes to your place wants to fuck you”
Instead of stating stuff like that, find out what she wants. Tune your senses to understand what they respond to, and what they don’t respond to. And in the context that this is a sexual setup and it ends in sex. Because that’s what is.
If the dance doesn’t lead there then you missed the cues.
This is most of the time for A) not sticking to the principles (hypergamy) and B) not reading the nuances (ramps, puzzles, opportunities, escalation).
Or it can be that she actually likes girls and just found out you have a penis. Gross.
“not every girl is attracted to an alpha”
I don’t see how that does anything for you, unless your’e saying here “Im not alpha, but that’s fine not every girl likes alpha so some will like me” and condemning yourself to enduring a lot of shit as a result.
When you narrow it down, all – ALL feminine, heteronormative, cisgendered, non-crazy fertile girls who are looking for a good seed for their eggs, are looking for confident, strong, masculine, socially savvy, know-what-they-are-doing, MEN with options.
If you don’t believe me, ask them. Then watch what they do. Then try different things and check what they respond to.
—
“when I finally did leave, I don’t think any of my fuckbuddies actually cared too much.”
Yeah. Women don’t care.
“if I had been completely honest with them and said I was only thinking of being there for the summer, some may not have fucked me.”
It depends on how it affects your value. There’s a setup in which being a traveler in passing increases your value (rarity), but it decreases your value in social standing. If you need time to build social value then being in passing deflates you. If you can build social value instantly (naturally extroverted, good with people) then being in passing multiplies that, you get both social value and rarity. Then there are social niches – if you join these communities where they do parties with foreigners, these have preselected all the girls who like rarity over social value.
So many little combinations. So very few basics.
Cheers man.
Some expansion on the idea of Beta trying to pull Game.
If you have a Beta frame and you try any of the fundamentals of game, it will seem to you as something advanced, out of this world, unimaginable.
The Beta frame is basically a follower, cover your dick frame. It acommodates to external value, as opposed to leading with your core value.
So the idea of ‘lead with your value sounds like nonsense.
The whole ‘be yourself’ is a trap because ‘yourself’, while beta, is unattractive. I’d go to the extent of saying that if you’re a beta, or as long as you’re operating through a beta frame, you don’t exist. You haven’t been born yet. You’re potentially you, but you’re not here. Not yet. You need an external shape to mold you – therefore you’re not you. You follow instead of leading, so you’re motives are covered, and your final expression not only not revealed, but not even articulated yet.
If you’re a Beta and do Game, then you’ll start doing and emulating ‘alpha things’ from a Beta perspective, as something that you have to run on top of your persona, a mask, and often going against the things that you’d actually like to do.
For example:
The Beta needs validation from a superior, so it will put the woman as it’s superior and kiss up. Thats AT THE CORE, so it will happen.
When it happens then it reveals the beta hand and the girls loses interest.
Then that is translated by the Beta frame as “don’t reveal your intentions” or “mask your desire” and because it works, it gets added to the Game rulebook.
Then some guy one day switches to Alpha and finds out that acting on your desire and setting boundaries and being upfront with what you want actually works, so what happens with “hide your desire”? well that’s basic and now the “show your desire” is “advanced”.
All this because I recently saw something from Torero where he passed a fundamental of game and called it advanced.
Being Alpha is not “advanced”. It’s just a way of being. You don’t advance to Alpha through iterations of beta. All the work you put to make the Beta frame work, even if all the perks you’re adding come from the Alpha frame, make you more beta.
So what will make you Alpha – well, are you even trying?
What will make you Alpha, if you’re NOT trying, is exposure.
The reason I commend Nash and his Tornado game is because even if he wont take my word – he’ll have to take reality for what is when he has a bunch of women, collectively (which is important, as this becomes a generality and exposes the principles, as opposed to be an individuality setup, which would only expose the small variations) reacting to him and giving feedback on his Alpha impersonation. Because all these girls don’t care about Nash (or they would all stay), they care about Game, because they only care about the Alpha, the mythical one, the archetype, and how that abstract form, personified on a physical man, presses their buttons – buttons they largely share with every other women.
So this thing.
It’s better to grab the fundamentals and principles first and move your frame and keep moving it.
Instead of perfecting Beta with the things that Beta can handle, and then when you’re faced with some fundamentals call then ‘advanced’. But alpha is not an advanced beta!
:-D
And a clarification
“how to bang the feminist chick who hates men? […] How to bang the christian girl […] it won’t be Game.”
It wont be Game as in – you wont be emulating the traits of alpha womanizers.
But the other part of game – the puzzle, ramps and other stuff I talk about will still apply. You still need to swing the value in front of them, or ping ping ping and deliver that, double down when something works and avoid the things that don’t.
Depending on the chick, specially when you deviate from the norm – that may end up taking the shape of – you wearing a strap on with a dick on your own ass, dressed as a baby. Or married without having sex and being pushed down as a provider (whatever rocks your boat)- it all depends on what they want and where you double down and what you do and don’t.
So the whole thing about starting from alpha frame, all the double downs and ramps and opportunities you take – these are ALSO your own filtering mechanisms. So it’s true that ‘not every girl will respond to alpha’ which is why it’s also important that you screen these out.
The relationship of alpha guy – adoring chick is the most favorable, but not the only one, and not even the most favorable if you’re into other things.
Epic Yohami comments here… thanks man.
>> My read is that when you say “not every girl likes alpha” it is because you’re putting yourself out of the alpha bag, and you’re looking for the girls who wont like alpha but would like you. If so, don’t do that, you’d be doing yourself a horrible disservice.
No reflection on Mr Pancake, but there is something really spot-on about ^ this comment.
I am one that might have made an anti-alpha argument in the past. If I wanted to, I could do it now (I’d talk about Sigma, which I truly believe is valid). But now… I’d rather focus on what is true about “women want alphas.” I think that thought has a higher yield “not every.”
I want a higher yield. Why make this harder on myself than it has to be by focusing on the wrong points??
>> When presented with the picture of the Top guy riding the Bottom guy, a segment of girls will pick the bottom guy. My experience is that these girls will take the Bottom guy for a ride and exploit him. So be wary of girls who like betas.
Your top guy / bottom guy analogy is one of your best. That pic (of the guy on the other’s shoulders) is disgusting to me… but very effective to get what it’s like. I have been bottom guy, it sucked. I want to think like top guy.
>> But “a girl” in the general sense, coming to your place, wants sex. First the obvious: if a costumer sees a commercial about a pizzeria on tv, then goes to the pizza place and takes a table, do they want a pizza?
Another good analogy. I’m mostly on board with you that “they all want sex.” That thought has more yield than “not every.”
>> Because all these girls don’t care about Nash (or they would all stay), they care about Game, because they only care about the Alpha, the mythical one, the archetype, and how that abstract form, personified on a physical man, presses their buttons – buttons they largely share with every other women.
Wow. Yeah.
The “trains coming and going.” I am the center of my life, but girls don’t care about “me” per se. They care about “the Alpha, the mythical one, the archetype.” They hang out at my “station” when I am that. And then they leave, because “that” is still out there and they will find it wherever they go.
I’ve been very impressed by how “come and go” women are as I get more experience. The Teenage Virgin squirted all over my face, gave me the most passionate hugs ever, she purred for me, argued about making sure “she was the only one in my life,” and then just disappeared.
There is something *consistent* about ^ this behavior. And your quote above works as a type of explanation for “the trains coming and going.”
>> we’re dealing with the world out there, and there are major rules, generalities and principles, and then you have individual variation, combinations, flavors and outliers.
— Yohami
>> he’ll have to take reality for what is when he has a bunch of women, collectively (which is important, as this becomes a generality and exposes the principles, as opposed to be an individuality setup, which would only expose the small variations)
— Yohami
>> The ‘advanced guys’ have the principles handled, so they can take on all the inifinite variations. You can’t go advanced without having the basis handled.
— Yohami
Good ^ breakdown on “fundamentals” vs “variations.” I’ll be linking back to this.
>> You either embrace the generalities as a starting point to understand not just women, but men, and society, or you reject it to embrace individualism and unicorns where the rules dont apply to you for whatever reason – except they do.
>>
>> First go to the general and then break the rules individually.
— Yohami
More on “generalities” vs “variations” from earlier this year…
>> “We’re humans, we have shared traits. We’re men and women, we have shared and distinctive traits. We have instincts, psychology, patterns, we act in predictable ways. Then at very close range everyone is different, just a little.”
— Yohami
Trying to get this stuff in one place.
>> Also your job is to find your own flavor of alpha, so you can be always ON instead of trying to be many flavors and having to switch on and off while pretending for many different girls.
I think this is my biggest hurdle. Being so new at this, I become a completely different person with every girl. I like to test out different strategies and attitudes. I am uncalibrated — but I think the only thing that can fix that is experience, so I soldier on.
“(I’d talk about Sigma, which I truly believe is valid)”
From what I’ve seen, the Sigma (introverted alpha) is being brought up by men who want to cash on the status of being at the top of the pyramid, but don’t want to play by the rules and actually climb the pyramid. The example I see often is “wolverine”, or “hemingway” or the lone wolf, a force of nature –
But the guys bringing that up are Krauser and Vox – both of those are actually Alphas creating their own pyramid. So they may not want to compete on the mainstream pyramid (and try to dethrone, say, Dicaprio), but they are still doing the classic hierarchy and putting themselves at the top. Which wouldn’t be sigma.
Show me a fully dominant man living out of the hierarchy – and how that man has access to the mainstream attractive women.
Then reverse this and look at it from the female perspective.
They don’t wake up in the morning with this thought “I wish today I would meet a strong, masculine, force of nature man, confident, know-how, who wants me and knows how to makes me feel special…. who is also out of the social hierarchy”
That last part “out of the social hierarchy” doesn’t matter at all for her perspective if you fit the important part which is the at the beginning.
The thing about the social part – is that it is ‘the pond’, or, she will look at the men who belong to the same tribe FIRST. So men who are out of the social hierarchy will synch with her if she’s also out of the social hierarchy. The first screening is the tribe and the coherence with the tribe. The more out of the tribe she is, the more open she’ll be to men who are also out of the tribe.
If for whatever reason you don’t want to climb the pyramid, that’s fine, as long as you still manage to be the important thing – dominant, confident, know-how, etc. The issue here is that PROBABLY the reason you don’t want to climb the hierarchy is that you don’t have what it takes, or are afraid, or are in the wrong field, or are covering your dick, etc, likely you’re starting on a weak frame or spot and you don’t see the way up. IF that is your case, then you will carry all of that to your “game” and the awkward-fest starts. You’ll be trying to pull a Wolverine when you don’t actually have what it takes to leave all the tribes behind and be a true lone wolf – you wont be a wolf, but a sheep scared to bite. You won’t be a strong force of nature who COULD be the leader of men but CHOSE not to – but instead a weakling who doesn’t think he can make it and is trying to take a shortcut. When you add THAT frame into the mix it invariably fucks up everything that follows. Which is why I put all my insistence in “fix your life first”
So girls don’t go out trying to find a “Sigma” – unless they are asocial themselves, but then you’re screening for these types of girls. Any social girl you’re able to pull is not seeing you as a “Sigma”, they are seeing you as an Alpha – because they are only paying attention to their OWN buttons that are being pressed. They only care about how they feel. It’s not about you.
And because it’s not about you – at the end of the day why do you care about the label you’re using for yourself. Go to the actual frame set, toolset, your skills and views. Are you a confident, know-how, dominant, successful man with a pride, non-needy, sexual beast who takes what he wants? Are you strong and dominant? do you have the experience and repetition, are you congruent with ‘top guy’ all the time, with no effort whatsoever so you have extra energy to spare and add fun and cocky on top of it all?
If not, how do you acquire it?
If you’re biologically normal – the easiest and probably the only way to acquire is through socialization and competition, and actually climbing some pyramid, so your testosterone goes up and your actual frame of reference with the world gives you the feedback loop necessary to sustain the top guy frame – in other words, it has to be REAL.
Which is why these self professed Sigmas are still building a pyramid and running a herd.
And why the RSD guys for example run workshop after workshop leading MEN.
Or, how do you acquire a frame of dominance and abundance unless you live a life of dominance and abundance?
So there’s that.
>> Very clearly, nothing in Game is absolute. Not every girl who comes to your place wants to fuck you, not every girl is attracted to an alpha, etc.
>> Yohami presents his arguments as absolutes
Yeah. I think part of this is Yohami’s frame. It’s strong, so his advice is “strong.”
And… a lot of things I argued with him at first, he was correct about… and I just couldn’t see it. I assume that is still true in many places when I argue with him.
I have my own experience. I’m no fool, and I’m not into being a “Yohami Robot.” But… “Yohami is always right” is more true than not. : ]
>> I tell (white?) lies to girls when I’m on vacation. I tell them I have a job where I can work from anywhere (true) and I’m thinking about maybe investing in property there (kind of true) and am planning on returning (also technically true).
^ Goldmund game. : ]
Looks like my 2018 trip to Tokyo is shaping up. So I will have a chance to do some of that. I might even look at property while there… so it will be even more true than “white lie.”
“But I think I was doing some of what he recommends. I was teasing her. I had her turned on. She had a wall, and I’m not convinced it had much to do with me or my (lack of) game.
She was turned on, no doubt. But at each stage when I tried to get us “over the threshold,” she was a real “no.””
Another thing to try: kiss her neck from behind. Then you guide her hand in her pants to her clit. Get her to start touching herself. As she warms up slip her pants off to make it easier.
Nothing works 100% but this will often break the psychological and physical barrier.
To do it you must lead her hand and tell her what to do. Bonus too if you hold her other hand behind her back by the wrist. Lightly, but firmly. Lightly is key.
“Another thing to try: kiss her neck from behind. Then you guide her hand in her pants to her clit.”
this sounds hot — and extremely unrealistic.
am i the only one here who understands the power of WHIPPING IT OUT???
do i need to re-send the danger & play link?
yohami?
anyone?
>> Another thing to try: kiss her neck from behind. Then you guide her hand in her pants to her clit. Get her to start touching herself. As she warms up slip her pants off to make it easier.
>>
>> Nothing works 100% but this will often break the psychological and physical barrier.
I have recent experience with trying to get girls to touch themselves… I haven’t found much success there… I am thinking of a few times when this was pretty flat. Getting her to spread her ass for me… most successful/hot. But getting her to rub her clit… my experience is that girls that like this, do it on their own. Girls that don’t do it on their own, are hard to motivate to do so.
But…
> kiss her neck from behind
There is something very simple and magical about that. For sure. It’s basic “animal” behavior… “climb on her back, bite her neck, fuck her from behind.” Hot for me. There is a lot of “pheromone” level smell on that part of her body… it’s there for a reason. And yeah, almost all girls respond to the “kiss” (or bite) her neck from behind.
Ben here. Been greatly enjoying your posts.
This recent pattern makes me wonder, are you filtering for girls that are sexually unavailable/more conservative? I don’t
mean deliberately filtering but doing so accidentally or perhaps subconsciously. And I don’t mean this in the absolute sense of girls that are never sexually available but at least not to you in the given context.
The filtering starts on the street. It seems to me that girls like The Preacher’s Daughter and Fashion Girl see you as a fun, engaging, attractive but harmless guy who they can go on a little playful adventure with. They can get sexual attention and admiration without ‘giving it up.’ You may be in the so-called r/k wilderness: r-selected enough that they value your sexual attention but k enough that they won’t give it up without a greater material/emotional investment on your part. I’m sure your style has changed overtime but I recall when we winged in the past you had a very smily/friendly/bubbly presence and I wonder if there’s enough of an edge, enough of a sexual aggressive energy?
I like how Zan Perrion talks about approaching women as extending an invitation. This invitation is mostly non-verbal, and in the context of daygame it’s like the street interaction is a microcosm of the entire dating experience, the entire courtship dance. it sets the tone for everything to come. So in these first few moments of meeting her, are you inviting her to have a sexual adventure with you or to have some innocent flirtatious fun? More to the point: are you inviting her to be chased or are you inviting her to be taken?
Another related thing I think may be going on is that you’re getting too deep/emotional too fast on dates. I don’t mean deep in terms of vulnerable but in terms of making her feel very connected to you/comfortable around you. This is just a guess as I’m not in the room on those dates, but knowing you a bit I know you can be very engaging and give people the sense that they are being listened to/understood very closely and I imagine this is amplified on dates. I read somewhere, forget where, this idea that the degree to which a girl feels connected is not based on how well she knows you but how well she feels you know her.
We tend to talk about the ‘provider’ in terms of material resources (As you’ve said you might be falling into this trap as well with all the dinner dates but if you enjoy them what the heck..) but I think there’s emotional provision as well. Perhaps you’re providing her a sense of emotionalaffirmation and safety and if you toned this down a bit she’d be less hesitant to jump into bed with you since she’d have less to lose i.e., she wouldn’t be at risk of losing a provider, which is a costly mistake in the evolutionary mating game.
So I think your assessment of Fashion Girl is correct: she dreads what she will feel after you leave. But the question in my mind is that if you were less of an (emotional) provider, would she still have this same fear, this same dread? If the pain is losing a provider/losing the emotional safety/affirmation she feels with this provider then she wouldn’t feel this pain and the dread of feeling this pain, if you fall into the emotional provider role in the first place.
The last thing I wonder is if you’re giving her too much sexual validation on dates. The way you talk about moments on dates where it’s “very on,” I can tell you really relish these moments and I’m sure she can tell this too. That is fine but if you take this too far she’s getting all this sexual validation from you without having to actually get naked or spread her legs. I think the bigger risk is if there’s a neediness/validation-seeking in the way you’re expressing sexual interest i.e, you are on a subconscious level giving it in hopes of getting sexual attention/validation back from her because it feels good. I certainly fall into this trap myself. What helps me is really trying to focus on what I like about her from the way her skin feels to how her hair smells etc, rather than what she thinks about me. Then when I’m expressing my sexual interest it is coming from a place of pure desire rather than neediness. This is a big turn on.
Anyway, if you find this pattern continuing you may tinker with some temporary things to see if you can break it. You might try capping your street interactions at say, 5 minutes, and focus those interactions a bit more on sexual tension than comfort e.g., stronger eye contact and less smiling, undressing her with your eyes etc. This might filter out the sexually unavailable girls while drawing in the more available ones. And then later on be cautious with dinner dates and maybe try shorter drink dates and quicker escalation where you give her measured but meaningful sexual attention from a place of desire.
Again, lots of speculation here and just my two cents.
Cheers!
“So I think your assessment of Fashion Girl is correct: she dreads what she will feel after you leave. But the question in my mind is that if you were less of an (emotional) provider, would she still have this same fear, this same dread? If the pain is losing a provider/losing the emotional safety/affirmation she feels with this provider then she wouldn’t feel this pain and the dread of feeling this pain, if you fall into the emotional provider role in the first place.”
i think this EC (emotional connection) he achieved with fashion girl is the REASON she came up to his hotel room, not the reverse.
rsd todd did a great job describing this using his “two cups” model. it’s a broad generalization, obviously, but i think there is a ton of insight here:
conservative girl needs more comfort, less “value” (asshole, dominant behavior):
https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/825677880701116417
party girl is the opposite, she needs a lot of value (dominant behavior), less comfort:
https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/825677249374466048
and the normal girl needs an even mix of both:
https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/825677422834098176
or, as roissy said a long time ago (if i get inspired, i may find the link), when he meets a girl the first thing he determines is, how much of an asshole do i need to be to turn her on?
found it:
“When I go out with girls I have a system where I rank them according to how much asshole behavior they will need to open their legs heart for me.” -Roissy
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/when-a-girl-needs-an-asshole/
“Your top guy / bottom guy analogy is one of your best.”
SO TRUE.
it’s a brilliant analogy, especially with that photo.
real, deep insight into female psychology.
okay, i just found your comments on the WHIP IT OUT strategy.
***
riv: “also, what happened to the WHIP OUT THE COCK strategy?? i swear, i really do think that works much better than making her put up her guard when you try to undress her.”
nash: “I never do this. I put her hand on my cock, but never pulled it out. For me ‘whip it out’ is part of another toolset. It’s not wrong, it’s just not my toolset. I’m usually fully clothed until after she’s had her first orgasm. But I think that idea has merit. It’s been on my mind… I should try it.”
riv: “you groping her = her needing to ‘put on the breaks’ (to use yohami’s language)”
nash: “Yeah. I think there is something to this.”
riv: “She is not fighting you, defending herself, her tits, her pussy, she is not feeling accosted.”
nash: ” Or with Miss Macau, as I tried to get her naked for pre-sex shower, she was reluctant, and I had her take my shirt off and we were off and moving.”
riv: “you whipping out your hard cock = she can admire it”
nash: “On this note… I know several girls that like sex, but don’t like focusing on the cock. Miss Lips “doesn’t like to look at it” so she won’t suck cock. I was chatting with the Chinese Virgin from Tokyo last night, and she said “I think it looks ugly.” One of my old lovers loves to get fucked… but won’t look at or suck my cock. It’s not personal with any of those girls… they’re just not into staring down the cock.”
***
very interesting points and counter-points. i think the key insight is what you noticed with miss macau — her taking off your shirt, and to a certain extent, this idea of her on top of you — and this key insight is that by “showcasing yourself”, you are showcasing a combination of confidence, sexual objectification, and also vulnerability — and maybe even a bit of reverse psychology.
we need to remember, after the initial kiss and makeout, EVERY girl is used to the guy getting grabby, trying to squeze her tits, trying to get under her shirt, trying to finger her, etc etc etc, so in order to pace the interaction, she needs to play defense on her own body. i mean, just writing it, it sounds uncomfortable, especially if he goes too fast. it can come off like he is too needy, too desperate.
in contrast, think about how shockingly different it is for her when the man starts treating *himself* like the sexual object, and the confidence and vulnerability that this implies: he takes off his own shirt (or gets her to do it, maybe even better, i have never tried it but it sounds interesting). he puts her hand on his cock **instead** of trying to finger her. he whips out his hard cock, a MASSIVE show of erotic dominance and self-confidence. at no moment does she have to play defense on her own body. **he** is the show. **he** is the center of attention. all of this turns her on massively.
(also, i am not sure i buy the “it’s ugly” line. maybe logically, sure. but when she is turned on, the cock is not ugly, it’s everything she wants.)
whipping it out is an incredibly alpha move. i know that mike cernovich wrote about it years ago, and my friend elvis used it to great success when he was single, and he learned about it from a natural he knew called diego — and i have used it several times to great success too — although not as much as i would like, sometimes i get nervous and don’t get hard, and a soft cock isn’t much of a turn on!
now i am curious about how well-known this move is in the community. for me, it’s a top 10 lesson from the manosphere.
gonna do a twitter poll.
***
here it is:
https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/929521605004447745
[…] my comment on nash’s blog. […]
So many gold nuggets spread all over this post!
” ‘YOHAMI: Like this you’re stopping in the crucial moment and having her decide what is going to happen. She’s the one in power’ ”
<<< So damn true! I still make this mistake, often. As if deep down I believe I shouldn't try to be weaseling my way inside her pussy. That it should be a free choice on her part to share an intimate moment.
YOHAMI: "So it’s true that ‘not every girl will respond to alpha’ which is why it’s also important that you screen these out."
You're right on point here, marico. I bet Buenos Aires taught you this important lesson.
Claps for master seducer Yohami.
YOHAMI: “Show me a fully dominant man living out of the hierarchy – and how that man has access to the mainstream attractive women.”
<<< SIgmas are hard to find, and that's why you can't name many. But their style is not bright, over-the-top and boastingly dominant like the alphas are. Their power is based on silence, rather than being loud and forthcoming. One example of a renown sigma that comes to mind is Charles Bukowski. Another one is David Bowie (I'm talking merely about style here, of course… Bowie was bisexual so I'm not sure whether this applies to social/sexual hierarchy, even if both of them had quite a few sexual partners).
These are two examples of what sigma looks like for me. Notice the self possession in spite of the disfunctionality, the wolfish demeanour and the sense of self-reliance and quiet dignity in both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H3mkXQlWp0
Both Bukowski and Bowie are celebrities who got their status by climbing a pyramid with their talent and developed a cult following. Each is the epicenter of their respective social circle. See what Im saying?
” Their power is based on silence”
How silent are these two? in which way are they not loud and forthcoming? plus plenty of visible?
Very true, but when one thinks alpha, what immediately comes to mind is the politicians, chieftains, generals powerful fighters, mob bosses, Wall Street brokers, band leaders, and so on. There is a defined and structured social order and they are in-your-face at the top of it. Think the king lion. Sigmas, on the other hand, identify with the lone wolf, which often sustains a major wound and so drifts from the pack to hunt on its own.
I am talking only about style, independently from media exposure – which is the nature of what these two did, especially Bowie. Yes, Bowie was loud in his way of expressing his artistic side, but he was quite a reserved person during interviews (don’t know about his private life, but very likely so much so). I realise it’s only a ‘romantic’ way of viewing characters and personalities, and it very well may be all just mental masturbation. It is true that many betas like to see themselves as sigmas, just because they’re weird, unattractive and alone most of the time (only, it’s agains their will and not a free choice).
This, on the other hand, is unmistakably alpha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co8s0egftsc
Forget about lions and wolves… After all, the comparisson falls flat in that we’re way more sofisticated animals,than those two with much more complex social dynamics. Wouldn’t you say there’s something quite distinct about the personalities, traits and the way of viewing reality of these two archetypes (Putin, on the one hand, Bukowski and Bowie on the other)? They’re all dominant and masculine in their own way, but you can clearly see the first two reaching inwards to draw power by way of making communication possible, yet being enigmatic – that “wound” that supposedly gives sigmas their humbleness and an aura of mystery. The latter, on the other hand, deals coldly with facts in an authoritative manner and wields power in its purest form by harnessing the external circumstances of a fixed social hierarchy.
Nash,
my comment is a bit off topic but I wanted to ask you for your opinion re. Chinese chicks (got another D2 today and my first two back in 2014 were failures), as you have vast experience.
https://wp.me/p95EQy-rb
Any other player’s comments also welcome, of course.
Thanks mates!