The Red Quest | Early Frame Announcement
“For some reason, at least half a dozen women have told me on first dates or near first dates about abuse or “abuse,” and with every one of them I did the same thing: no more dates, no more escalation. Don’t need that shit. If she’s sharing it inappropriately early, run.”
— The Red Quest
^ Dodgy situation… from the POV of a high-value man. A man with wisdom… and self-respect.
That is from The Red Quest‘s post from today. He’s got a great blog. One of my favorites right now.
And good for you, man. Think of how many guys that would read that story the other way… guys that would want to fix her. Or protect her. Or happy those “jerks” were out of the way so he could take his shot. Many otherwise great men have fallen into that trap.
I can think of only one date like Red Quest references above…
She approached me and a friend while we ate at this high-end burger place. She liked my book, which was on the counter next to me as I ate. We exchanged names and I happened to have the same name as her grandfather. Her eyes sparkled. It was on.
She was “older” (33?), had a lot of tattoos (a red flag), but she was the manager of the place and seemed spritely and in her element. She looked confident… and rather hot. A tall, sexy girl. I gave her my card (because I was dumb back then) but she called (which never happens… she must not have had a lot of options), and by “call” I mean… she actually called (which shows her age), and left me a voicemail (freakishly uncommon).
I called her back. She picked up. We spoke and set up a date. I was just getting into game, at the time. I felt cool.
It was pouring rain as she arrived for our first (and only) date. She seemed “different.” Her confidence was gone. Even at 5’10”, she cowered a bit as she arrived. I was disappointed… but two beers later I was more into her. Another bar, whiskey… and then came her stories… the abusive, alcoholic ex BFs. More than one. Her low self-esteem leaked into the space between us.
We had a hot makeout in the bar (because I am
a dog a man, and not as wise as Red Quest). As we prepared to leave, and we put our coats back on to brace against the storm, she said, “I feel like we should be taking our clothes off…” I was relatively inexperienced, but even then I was sure what she meant. She was a happy girl. And she was ready to get fucked… practically licking her lips about it as we left the bar together.
This was back in the days of cabs… so I stopped one, and put her in it. She had a look of total shock on her face when I didn’t slide in next to her… she assumed we were going to my place. She was wrong. She couldn’t believe I was sending her home alone. “Get home safe,” I said.
I sent her a nice “validation” text as I took a separate cab home. And then… I never messaged her again.
About a week later, she sent me some slightly bitter text. I don’t remember the details. Some accusations… a bit nasty, presumably because I never asked for another date. She felt the “pump and dump”… even though I never gave her the D. It was passive-aggressive, but I think she still thought I might ask her out again. The nastiness was her attempt to “seduce” me into more contact with her.
There was one more message, a few days later, fully bitter now. Talking about how I was broken.
Sure, babe. Whatever you say.
“Everyone has a narrative. Most people’s narratives leave some shit out. Whenever someone tells you some story, think about the dark matter of that story.”
— The Red Quest
Imagine the story she told her girlfriends about me. About how I was a dick. And the details she imagined about how I was too broken to feel intimacy… all said with confidence, but completely imagined by her, as I never mentioned anything like that. But there had to be a “reason” why I wouldn’t see her again… it must have been me. Certainly. I was damaged goods. And an asshole… for taking her on a nice date and not even trying to fuck her… how rude of me. A real gentleman would have at least fucked her.
All the tattoos were the first clue. Her physiology as she showed up for the date was the second. The stories about “dysfunctional exs” told “inappropriately early” was the clincher.
I talk about this book Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man quite a bit. Check this out:
“Detecting a woman’s self-esteem is strictly linked with a concept we have coined as the Early Frame Announcement (EFA). As a rule, a woman will say or do something early on in a relationship, by which she will unwittingly reveal the degree of her self-esteem and also what she expects from her relationships with men. Therefore, it is important that you pay very close attention to what a woman does and says at the very beginning of any relationship.”
— Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man
As Seneca says, “But something that can never be learnt too thoroughly can never be said too often.” I could read this quote again and again. So solid. Good stuff right there.
Compare that line to this bit from Red Quest’s post:
“Some guys are assholes. Some women are too. But be pretty cagey about anyone who paints their ex as a total demon. If the ex is a demon, why did she (or sometimes he) date him in the first place? There’s some shit there that’s not being revealed.”
— The Red Quest
Red Quest is dead on here. Wisdom from the tribe of men.
And he is cautioning us “not to believe” everything we hear. That is part of our task as we lead and evaluate women. But we also need to see and believe what is there “between the lines.” That’s similar to what Red Quest is saying, but from another angle…
Do believe what you hear and see, but look for the real show, the tells, including, but not only, the narrative that she lays out for you.
Look for that early frame announcement. Those subtle, or not-so-subtle red flags. Maybe what she says or does. Or maybe what is lurking behind her social mask.
How many relationships had the warning signs, but we were too blind (or too thirsty) for caution. So needy (or inexperienced) we had no time for wisdom.
Good post, Red Quest. Really loving your blog.
Great reminder Nash. “Believe what they do, not what they say”.
Magnum… hey man. Good to hear from you.
“Believe what they do, not what they say”.
^ More wisdom from the Tribe of Men.
There are a couple more stories about this girl… some “upside” to that time with her, beyond the makeout (which was good).
== That look on her face when I gave her my card…
She was in another part of the restaurant, and I walked over and gave her my card. She had this strange, sort of disappointed look on her face and I assumed I’d mis-read our interaction, and that she wasn’t into me. I assumed she’d never call.
But we know she did. And she was fully into it.
I had a chance to ask her about that moment, after we’d made out that night…
She said she was just surprised… because she was going to give me her card! She had it in her back pocket… and even reached out to grab it as I approached after my lunch. She was temporarily stunned as I beat her to the the card moment.
I mention this as we so often assume something about a girl. And then we give up, as we “say ‘no’ for her,” even when she is trying to say “yes.”
Often, our read is correct. Other times… if we have the shot, take it. You never know…
There are “universal” cues we can learn. And there are personal ones, that you cannot understand until you know that particular girl better.
Work your leads. You never know… I’ve seen “no’s” turn out to be “yes’s” many times.
Another thing about that date…
I was just learning how to move escalation along… and I did something that night that was a little awkward… but completely successful So successful… I still do it.
You know how some guys can smoothly start to touch a girl? This is the opposite of that.
She had her legs crossed, and her hands folded across her knees. I wanted to hold her hand. I couldn’t think of a “smooth” way to do it… so…
I lifted one hand into the air… looked at it, the top, the bottom… and then I not-so-smoothly slide my hand between her hands and the top of her knees. Just like that, we were basically holding hands.
She didn’t say anything… just gave me a huge smile.
I kept talking the whole time this was going on… but I gave her a little wink when she smiled.
That was a big lesson for me about how you don’t have to be smooth or subtle. I am great at just taking a girls hand now… but when it’s going to be conspicuous, I sometimes make it extra conspicuous, and smile, and go for it anyway.
And it works every time. Sometimes I’m a little “unsmooth” when I go to break the physical barrier with a girl… and sometimes, she likes it.
I learned this with this girl… many years ago.
I’m a 100% with you guys on this one. I can recall quite a few times when the girl had tried it on with me, or otherwise shown signs of unacceptable behaviour or tried to constantly dominate, even through the use of physical violence; i.e.: bting, scratching and pounding their little fists upon my body or slapping me whilst verbally questioning my manhood… a total turn off. But by far the worst is when some of them – the really broken ones – will try to instill dread in you by prematurely suggesting, or straight out telling you with a worried look in their eye that they might have got impregnated by your seed. Prematurely, as in they have not carried out the appropriate testings so far and there’s only a feigned and subtle trace of worry in their eyes. Fortunately, it’s so easy to see through that and realise there’s actually mischief and cold speculation behiind that dim veil of dismay righteousness. Whenever that happens I cut the girl loose, without blinking. I don’t care how hot she is, or if she is really “my type”, or how intimate we are and what a genuine connection we had… She’s out.
Here’s a great article on Roosh’s forum discussing precisely that: http://www.rooshv.com/dont-let-a-girl-use-dread-game-on-you
>> even through the use of physical violence; i.e.: bting, scratching and pounding their little fists upon my body or slapping me whilst verbally questioning my manhood… a total turn off.
Wow! I wonder if this is a Latin Girl thing? I can’t remember the last time a woman did anything physically aggressive with me.
>> prematurely suggesting, or straight out telling you with a worried look in their eye that they might have got impregnated by your seed. Prematurely, as in they have not carried out the appropriate testings so far and there’s only a feigned and subtle trace of worry in their eyes. Fortunately, it’s so easy to see through that and realise there’s actually mischief and cold speculation
Wow! First thing here… if we don’t take chances, she has nothing on us.
I took one chance last month, with my most regular girl. Dipped my cock into her, unshielded. I had been very turned on before that, and I bet there was some come/precome. She had her period yesterday, and I’m relieved. Dumb of me to EVER take chances.
I always talk about my favorite condoms… Okomoto 003s. Completely changed condom sex for me… I love those condoms. I actually get turned on, putting one on.
But beyond that… any chick that would fuck with me on that angle… yeah… I would get her the FUCK OUT immediately.
I get a shiver even thinking of being accidentally a father. And an angry shiver thinking some girl would exploit that angle.
But again… it’s up to ME to make sure she has no such opportunity. And I can just laugh if she brings it up… because I”m certain I never took any chances.
“Wow! I wonder if this is a Latin Girl thing? I can’t remember the last time a woman did anything physically aggressive with me.”
<<< Ask good old Yohami.
"But again… it’s up to ME to make sure she has no such opportunity".
<<< I hear you… What can I say? I like to fuck up from time to time. But only with MLTR's.
Thanks for the shoutout man! Glad you like the post. BTW, those half dozen or so were spread over 10+ years, so it’s not a super common occurrence. But it seems like a really stupid thing for a girl to do, unless she’s either crazy or truly traumatized, and in either case I want to GTFO.
I’ve also done my share, maybe more than my share, of sex with women who I should’ve run from… just not ones who talked about abuse or “abuse” right up front. I’ve gone bare way more often than I should’ve, probably explaining why I have kids when a lot of guys who sleep around don’t.
Imagine the story she told her girlfriends about me. About how I was a dick. And the details she imagined about how I was too broken to feel intimacy… all said with confidence, but completely imagined by her, as I never mentioned anything like that
Yeah, exactly. Very few of us are outright heroes or villains. If you hear one side of a story about a total hero or total villain, be pretty skeptical.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom of bad experience.
It tracks with what I’ve experienced in my life as well.
I’d make that “Wisdom (about women) from the Tribe of Men” phrase into a regular feature and try to spread it as a PUA meme.
>> I’d make that “Wisdom (about women) from the Tribe of Men” phrase into a regular feature and try to spread it as a PUA meme.
I like that, too. It came out in the writing of this piece… has a nice ring to it.
I’m very much into the “shared” aspect of our education. All of us, helping each other. The Tribe of Men.
You are a stronger man than me. I would have taken her back, fucked her, and then ditched her immediately as she started the real drama.
But I never seem to attract crazy chicks. I’m too sane.
Could you write more about high self esteem vs low self esteem girls, and the tells of each?
And for men who aren’t looking for relationships, which are low self esteem girls such a bad thing for a short “fuck buddy” relation?
I mean, a “headache” girl could be a good thing to help strengthen a man’s frame. She would be harder to handle, so normal girls will same like game on “easy mode”.
Am I right? :)