TYO: Rejections, Mistakes, and Failures
I had an unbelievable trip to Japan, killed it, hit my goals, and I learned a ton. It was fun. And I feel proud when I think of that trip. And yet I also took on a ton of rejection. Made some mistakes. Had a lot of failure. I want to talk about that too.
“One of the most frustrating things I’ve found about the PUA scene is that very few people actually tell you how excruciating it can be at times”
— Bastiat, in comment on Krauser’s site
Part of my commitment to the Days of Game project is to showcase my struggle and my failure on my path as a daygamer and as a man. There was some of this in my last lay report… all that thrashing and self-doubt of my final week. That post has some of the pain of the journey, even with the happy ending of my last night.
This post shows more of the difficult part of my Japan adventure.
I love Bastiat’s quote above. He’s right. Very few people tell you about this part of the ride. But it’s real. It’s real as you start the journey, before your knife is sharp enough to cut into the meat of success. But the ache is still there, after you’ve had some wins. The ache is part of the ride.
This post is about that ache.
I talk about the failure and rejection and self-doubt for two reasons. 1.) To help me understand myself, and 2.) To help other guys to feel “normal” in those periods of defeat and struggle. I am not alone. And neither are you.
Furthermore, I am interested in the concept of “wholeness.” Senior Rivelino and I have talked about the importance of “being whole” and “accepting all the parts of ourselves” and our psychologies. To embrace your wholeness is a good strategy for psychological health.
In terms of game, I think that means accepting your “nice” side, the part that loves women, that maybe has a sister, that likes romance and wants to take care of those in our charge. And it also means accepting your “dark” side, the side that enjoys the predation, that wants to be a Lothario, that is now or will continue to juggle multiple women, and the side that gets off on the hunt and maybe likes to throat-fuck “nice” girls. Wholeness. Embrace both sides. Embrace it all. That is whole… all of you.
In terms of day to day progress and lifestyle, wholeness means embracing your successes, but also your rejections, your mistakes, your failures.
I was blown out almost countless times in Tokyo (I say “almost,” because I did count them, and will try to have a “total blowouts” reference when I post my final stats). I was getting to that in my post about me being the world’s #1 blowout artist. Nash is a BOA. Let it be known.
In many ways, ^ this is me embracing my failure. The BOA concept is about being whole. I get rejected a lot. That is real. I’m very fucking cool with it.
But this post is about some more meaningful rejections. Some moments when I wasn’t so cool about it all. Some things that hurt. Some tough times.
Here goes.
BUSINESS GIRL. Let’s start with her.. She was the first girl I dated in Tokyo on this trip. My first bit of proof I could create a Girl Tornado there. I posted about her at least a couple of times.
She matters to me as even though we went out three times, she would never kiss me. We were never even close to sex. It wasn’t even that fun. She counts as a failure not because I didn’t have sex with her, or whatever, but because she frustrated me. She got to me. Not in a good way, that made me feel alive. But in a bad way, where I felt ineffective. It’s true.
What I learned from her was the importance of options. If I had more options, I wouldn’t have dated her after the first date. I said so at the time… but I didn’t have more options. When a man doesn’t have enough options, he is forced to compromise. That is a fucking big lesson, right there.
Last thing here, escalation is a beautiful test. If you escalate, consistently, and she won’t play… You have all the evidence you need to move on… So do it. I eventually did.
OREO. I never posted about her, but she kind of got me too. Picked her up in a market, after a long, proper daygame approach session. She was older, maybe 32. Solid IOI. Line App close. Fun on text, and I took her out one time. Good date, including a great makeout, but she would not come home.
After the date, she seemed a bit colder via text. As I asked her out the second time, I got this:
OREO: Well…..now I know I’m not having a sex with you. So maybe I am not the one you want to spend a time with.
I said nothing about sex to this girl… not beyond whatever I may have said on the date. Nothing explicit. In response to her words, I made some comment about “we don’t have to make promises, let’s just have a good experience.” To which she came back with:
OREO: For my good experience I want to follow my feeling
OREO: Now I choose not going out with you
OREO: Thanks
Ouch.
All this surprised me as the date was nice, felt solid. She was very into the makeout, which came after first denying me, then two minutes later, she was well into it. She was not my favorite girl in the mix at the time, but I was looking fwd to seeing her again. My guess is she picked up the player vibe, or didn’t like the short term part, maybe wants a BF, who knows.
Or… She just wasn’t that into me.
It terms of what I learned, I wouldn’t do much differently. However, I have been using this “comfortable/exciting” frame with girls. Saying it is my job to make a girl feel comfortable, safe, etc… but not too safe. That I also need to make it exciting. I have been loving that frame as a way to spike, create trust, escalate, all that.
When I was running her through this frame, she agreed. Girls want that mix of comfort and excitement, but they also want “understanding.” That is the part she added. I am paraphrasing that as “familiar,” but maybe I’m wrong in what she meant. In any case, I think there is something to learn there.
Girls want comfortable, exciting, and familiar. I like that. I took an “L” here, but I like what she added to my story.
BIG EYES. I don’t think I have ever been stood up before, not ever. Big Eyes stood me up. I have had girls cancel on me, and ignore me, but never make a date and just not show up.
I picked her up after one of my first days out with Root. I was mostly chatting with him that day, but did a few approaches, and then picked up this girl on the train platform on my way home. She was beautiful, big eyes. Nice pickup.
As we negotiated the date she said this:
BIG EYES: It be fun, but, youknow
BIG EYES: Im not a good English speaker,, so
BIG EYES: kind of, feel uneasy.
Maybe that should have been the sign that she wasn’t going to show? We had a ton of message time, lots of comfort. Including that morning when she messaged me on her own, talking about the cold. It was a cold day. I responded, but never heard back from her.
And that night… She didn’t cancel and she did not show up. No message later, nothing. Line has read receipts, so I know she never looked at another message I sent her. Just gone.
I don’t know what to learn from this. Maybe only that stuff like this happens. With enough volume, you’ll run into this kind of thing. And with enough volume, and experience, maybe you won’t care as much as I cared that night. I cared. It bugged me.
I’d repeat the familiar lesson, that we need to have options. And I did. So she went away and I still had several other girls in the mix, but it hurt to be stood up.
It hurt worse because nothing was going well that week. I’d had two other dates that day… One with a 20 yr old, very cute, but would not kiss me. And then my 2nd time in bed with the Chinese Virgin, which was a great time, but she wouldn’t fuck me. My momentum felt off. Then I get stood up on the same day… all that work, and nothing but “zeros” to show for it.
I started to feel a little bummed out. So I went to dinner on my own that night (I had a reservation for the girl and I), then tried gutter game for the first time. Talked to 15 girls. It was meh, but my state was not great.
Then I went to a crazy bar, made some friends, chatted with some girls and went home. I felt better after the bar. I knew the next day would mean another daygame session to clean all this up. That’s what I did.
THE NURSE. She was definitely one of the highpoints, but also left a bad taste in my mouth. I still have a bad taste about her.
She was the first girl I had sex with on this trip, and it was great. I really liked her. In bed, but even as a dinner date. She was young, simple, but charming. 3rd date was sex. 4th date she was on her period, so back to my place, great makeout and an extraordinary handjob. Excellent handjob. Wow. The let-down was on date five.
We set up a date for my last Friday night. We meet at a restaurant I love, after 10 PM, as she had a late night at the hospital. She was beautiful and charming. I had forgotten how much I liked her. Great dinner. Intimate, perfect, I loved it. After my rought week (it was the night before that I was stood up), I felt almost grateful. I was really looking forward to taking this girl’s clothes off and ravishing her.
After dinner I say, “Okay, my place, desert.” And she says no. Her brother is at her house, taking the national university exam the next morning, she had to get back to him. No? Wow. Fuck this week.
And I was shocked. Dumbfounded. It was going to be the last night of our little romance, but now she was on her way home. I felt stupid, in part because I told a very hot Korean flight crew girl that I could not see her this night, because I wanted to see The Nurse. And this was the same night I had the 19 year old on the i-date, so I was packed with action… but with nothing coming of it. Up until the last night, and my last-minute lay, that week kicked my ass.
I messaged her once more while I was there. She didn’t respond. And once more when I got home — in part just to say thanks for a good time — no response. Cold. Ice cold.
What did I learn? I don’t know. When I met her, she had just broken up with her BF that week. Maybe she doesn’t even have a brother? Maybe she wanted to fuck her ex that night? Or some other guy. She was certainly not overly into me or our thing. My reaction is proof to me that I am still a bit of a soft-hearted fool.
I don’t know what I learned. She surprised me. Simple… maybe I’m the simple one.
COME AND GO: This particular bit of rejection wasn’t about any particular girl. This was about the 20 year old I made out with at Starbucks, but never read any of my Line messages, never said a word, after our i-date was over. Or my first i-date, that loved it, but also never responded to a message after we ended that little date. Or the i-date on my last Saturday, hot/sexy afternoon date… Never said a word to me after. Or the Queeny, and our red-hot street time, the close, a text or two… And then cold. Or the Burlesque Dancer… one of the hottest sets of my life. Took her Line, she never even looked at the messages from me. And a million other moments like this… All of it adding leather to my heart.
What did I learn? I learned I am still a naive, childish fool. I learned I get attached to connections that even 20 year old girls know are “come and go” encounters. I learned that the magic is in the moment, and to release that moment, and jump back into the tornado and the next girl.
I hope I learned something there.
This is where Buddhism meets the player’s psychology. It’s real to care, and to try, and to be vulnerable, but don’t expect the world to stop turning. The playing field is always changing. Her feelings, your feelings… so much wind. That means that which you have will slip away… And that around the next corner is your next lay. It’s like that.
JAFRICA. I picked this girl up, and had three nice dates before I brought her home. We made out on the second date. Before the third date we had this conversation:
JAFRICA: Well…Let me tell u something. I cannot make love with u tomorrow because u’ll leave Japan soon. I need more time to know about u.
JAFRICA: If it is ok (no sex) l would like to have a dinner with you. It is really fun to talk with you:)
NASH: Haha
NASH: Why are you always thinking about sex??! : ]
NASH: I am a virgin. But I hear sex is really good… Is it true???
JAFRICA: : )
JAFRICA: You were talking about sex so that…
NASH: Let’s have dinner.
JAFRICA: Yes
Looked like a standard “I don’t want to be responsible for sex” pre-game speech. You can see how I played through.
So the date happens, and it’s nice. Afterwards, my place, and I say we don’t have to do anything we don’t want to do. But we do a lot.
I get her naked, lick her entire body, fingers inside her, but no sex. She is saying “no” to everything, but as I escalate she purrs and moans. We end with me naked, condom on, grinding against her, her hand on my cock keeping me from penetrating her. It was like that. Intense, beyond sexual, and frustrating.
And she was a verbal “no,” the whole time. Most of which was definitely that “no, uhhh, moan, no, moan-moan-moan.” Physically holding me back and then giving in to my advances.
I have had this kind of sex with many girls… In some ways, it’s typical male/female dance. He climbs on her back, she tries to throw him off, if it works, she was right… He wasn’t the one. If he succeeds, he’s a strong man indeed. And she loves it.
For anyone reading that can’t handle mature conversation or nuance, or has so little experience they don’t recognize what I am talking about, I’ll be explicit: it is never okay to force yourself on a woman. Full stop.
I escalated on this girl mercilessly, put a lot of pressure on her, but there was certainly no force. With that said, there is maturity and nuance to understanding this dance. Sex is messy… physically and psychologically.
So after this excruciating exchange goes on for maybe 15 minutes, the tone of her voice changes, and she says she really has to go. So we stop, we get dressed, and I walk her out and make sure she is in car home.
The mood was noticably “off” as we ended the night. And about one hour later I get this:
JAFRICA: I hope u didn’t take a video of us
JAFRICA: I really don’t want to do sex.
Video? What is that about? There was no mention of anything like that, nor is there anything like video in my relationship with women. Zero.
Her comment is about a lack of trust. She no longer trusted me. The relationship had soured and I never heard from her again. That was the change in her tone of voice. That’s what it meant.
This is a failure to me, not because I didn’t get the notch, or because I had an unbearably unsatisfying night with her. It was a failure, because I gave that girl a bad experience.
It is my stated goal to give myself, and the girls, great experiences. Here I did neither. I failed. I failed her. And I failed myself.
And it sucks to write about that night.
What did I learn? To be honest, I’m not sure I would do all that much differently. In some ways that is true. Her “no, maybe, yes, yes, no, maybe, no, no, yes, yes, yes…” turned into a hard no at the end of the night. I believe many girls could have gone the other way, collapsed into sex and pleasure and approval. Not this one. We did not have sex that night, but in my pursuit of sex, I misjudged her.
What I am beginning to realize is that I don’t want to be a “convincer.” Convincing is not sexy, and it’s not cool. I am a seducer. And the “convincing” sucks… And it’s not good game. And it feels terrible.
The Nurse did a lot of the “no, no, oh!, oh!, yes, yes, yes, no, no, yes” thing as well. But the Idol and the Yoga girl were full yes, no LMR, great experience. All three girls were a great experience, and I will pursue girls in this range.
But I want to stop chasing, because that’s not good game, and to stop convincing, because it feels terrible. That last date with Jafrica could have gelled into something sweet and sexy, but it didn’t go that way, and I would like to be able spot these girls sooner. I think she was a real no, and I can’t always tell real no’s from token no’s. Not always.
Maybe this will all get better… with more experience.
Ahhhh… I am glad this post is over. I want to be real and show the whole range of experience. I want to share my failures as well as my wins. But this post is not a victory lap, and it hurt to concentrate on this stuff… The soft, vulnerable underbelly of an otherwise triumphant adventure.
You will get rejected. You will make mistakes. You will, have failures.
All part of the days of game.
Viva daygame.
Even though I slept with more women last year than 80% of men do in their entire lifetimes, I still feel like a failure, because I have not yet achieved what I want to achieve.
And that’s why I keep grinding.
Shit is excruciating, that’s for sure.
I hear that. And even getting laid won’t necessarily give you the feeling you have the knowledge/control/experience you want.
I don’t think there is an end to this game… I think we can choose to give this “puzzle” attention, or not, but we never figure it all out.
It’s all good man.
“I don’t know what to learn from this.”
Simple. What did she want?
Yeah. Always… what did she want.
And I don’t want to be the convincer. I want to show her what she wants and let her pounce on it. I can do this sometimes… sometimes.
But before you can show them you have to know. With these girls, do you know what they wanted?
Short answer… no.
That’s why this is rejections/mistakes/failures instead of +1! +1! +1!
Business girl… I think I should have fed her business and DHVs about business, dated her more, and she would have caved. That’s my guess.
The Nurse… at some point I gave her what she wanted, and I got her panties off. At the end, maybe her brother really was staying with her that night. Maybe she just wanted “short term,” no strings, super causal. Maybe she didn’t know what she wanted, but liked the way I swung my dick on our first few encounters? I don’t know.
As for the Big Eyes and all the girls that never messaged me… no idea what they wanted. We can’t know what a girl wants every time. We are doing it right when we’re getting laid. Often, if we’re not, particularly if we’re not even dating… we’ll never know.
Jafrica… her text said “I need to get to know you better” before sex. Maybe that is true. She also has never had an orgasm and she is 29 (and fucking unbelievably hot with her clothes off… devastating body… full hips, tiny torso, flawless skin, unbelievable), so maybe she is conflicted sexually, and this had nothing to do with me? She has also never sucked cock. I don’t get that girl.
I dunno, I dunno, I dunno.
In a way, we don’t learn that much from our successes. But for the short/opaque failed interactions with girls, we don’t learn much either… particular about each girls unique puzzle.
I have a lot of learn. I made a ton of mistakes that I could see, let alone that I could not.
I don’t know what these girls wanted… excitement, adventure, good experiences. But the details?? I dunno.
Interesting. How about the girls you had sex with and are successes. Do you know what they wanted?
If I ask you which of your stickers / art is most liked / on demand, is that something you can answer?
Im trying to get to the blind spot here.
>> Interesting. How about the girls you had sex with and are successes. Do you know what they wanted?
Hmmm. I’ll try.
== NURSE. She wanted some attention. When I would really stare at her, she would play back, really give me her eyes. She liked that kind of exchange, she would milk it. And she loved food. She liked a soft touch. I don’t know why she went cold on me… but she liked being on a date with me, very much. Even the last one… she was having a great time… me touching her, leaning into it, and the food.
I think she maybe also wanted to be able to fuck another guy in contrast to her BF she had just broken up with him a week before I met her.
But… and I am just putting this together… she broke up with him because HE didn’t have time for her. But in my case, it was very hard to get HER out… somewhat hard… maybe once every 7 or 8 days. She was never eager about it. A little distant, but said yes when I asked, and never too quickly.
Maybe SHE wanted that experience of being not available??
== IDOL. We didn’t talk that much, her English was limited. We know she had a BF, who was too busy to see her, so I could have been a revenge fuck for her. I also think she liked being lead, after the first few minutes, she went with everything I tried, no resistance. She was very affectionate post sex, so maybe she wanted the physical piece, the touching. She was super cuddly. She is an affectionate girl.
Also… she msg’d me last week, asking if I wore a condom. “Was it remembered.” Which I did, the whole time, so I told her so. We chatted a bit more since then. She has not been completely cold.
== YOGA GIRL. I don’t know. She’s a mild girl, not super excitable or exciting. She was so easy to lead… and remember her bra/panties were hot, and she was “just out shopping.” Maybe she wanted to be picked up? And she is very into the idea of coming to visit me. I have not invited her, but she has made several comments. She’s never left Japan, so I think I am adventure/travel to her. She left her earrings in my apartment so I mailed them back to her this week, so we’re still chatting quite a bit via Line.
>> If I ask you which of your stickers / art is most liked / on demand, is that something you can answer?
>> Im trying to get to the blind spot here.
Good exercise, man. Yeah, I know exactly what sticker is most popular.
Yes – you’re still a naive childish fool, but the more experiences you have infield, the more you start to understand the truth about women – the more you’ll be able to bend it to your own advantage. That’s what you did in your last night in Tokyo when you had your SDL.
I’m still naive too, and girls get to me all the time. With our volume, failure is inevitable. It’s about refining ourselves by analyzing our failures so we continue to improve our success rate.
That’s why I love how you update every failure, and analyze it. That’s how you become great at game. But do remember, a fact I accepted for years: “if you’re good enough, you can lay every girl you meet/bounce/date.” Which isn’t true at all. Even the best PUA fails. Sometimes it’s about the girl. You can’t take things too personally nor seriously in game. And in this trip like you learned – “When a man doesn’t have enough options, he is forced to compromise.” Having options makes us think straight, and gives us power. Makes us more attractive. Makes the girls we meet expendable. Thus there’s no need to beg nor convince the girl.
You’ve really sparked a fire in my game which I haven’t had in years. Thank you.
>> Yes – you’re still a naive childish fool
Yeah. I am.
>> I’m still naive too, and girls get to me all the time.
Good! I know Riv is like this too. I want to still “get the feels.” I’m getting more pro, but I don’t want to be “made of stone.” That’s not my goal. I think being actually vulnerable is a sign we’re still human. I want to stay human.
>> And in this trip like you learned – “When a man doesn’t have enough options, he is forced to compromise.” Having options makes us think straight, and gives us power. Makes us more attractive. Makes the girls we meet expendable. Thus there’s no need to beg nor convince the girl.
Yes to this, man.
I am about to ping some of my old leads from before I left… and I’m not that eager. I know I got better. I know I have more options now, based on the level of my game. I’m reluctant to get into any kind of chase with some of those old girls. Even Firecracker might be off the list… I don’t want to chase.
Options ARE power. That’s why I love turning any frustration into another street session. Any girl that “burns” you is quickly forgotten when a new one is in front of you, blushing, and loving it.
Options are power. And the street is power.
>> You’ve really sparked a fire in my game which I haven’t had in years. Thank you.
I’m so glad, man. I met a local guy on the street here yesterday, told him how much I liked meeting you and how you got me to start working on the “bounce backs.” I tried for that yesterday, BTW, here at home… took her number, but couldn’t get her back. It’ll happen. I am going to message her right now…
Right on, Stealth. Thank you too.
“But the ache is still there, after you’ve had some wins.”
bodi called it the r/k wilderness, do you think that applies in your case, or are you past that?
— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnm9i-WQNvg
I just re-listened to this interview. Bodi… not really inspiring. There is a reason why I’ve never studied this guy. I love “memoirs,” but I don’t want to read his books… I think he probably has a lot to share/teach, but I think he’s a downer… and I don’t need that energy. I have other things to study.
>> “But the ache is still there, after you’ve had some wins.”
No, this isn’t what I was talking about, even if I may be in the “wilderness.”
I think I *am* in the r/k wilderness… because I have a lot of “boyfriend” qualities, and because I do have some “nice guy” to me… but I am looking for more “r” experiences. Or “k-like,” with multiple girls.
I said around the new year I had one foot in scarcity and one in abundance. Post Japan, I assume I’m in abundance mode… we’ll see. Sex with the Siren helps me think that is true.
>> “But the ache is still there, after you’ve had some wins.”
This was just about what it feels like to still have self doubt, and to feel real “suffering” and disappointment even though I am getting laid with “more girls per month ***” than I ever have in my life.
That last week in Japan… was a lot of disappointment. I had an almost sour taste in my mouth about the whole trip… just from “no results” that week. The girl that stood me up really got to me. I was very surprised.
Again, I may be an overly optimistic, a greedy bastard, naive, overly-sensitive… but I was “suffering” in that last week, as nothing was turning into skin… and I worked so hard, did so much. Maybe “too much.”
Seems ridiculous as I type it out, but “an extraordinary life starts with extraordinary expectations.” I had very high expectations for Japan, and had a very extraordinary trip, but that lead to some extra pain when I couldn’t “work” my way into success and satisfy my own expectations in that last week.
And I was (kind of) lucky that I got that last lay… as it made the whole last week worth it, in terms of overall results and meeting my expectations. Very nice “high drama” ending. If I didn’t get laid, I would be more humble, and probably would have thought less of my trip. I think that is dumb of me, but it’s true. And I’m glad I got that last lay.
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* SIDE NOTE: “More girls per month.” This is an interesting stat. My overall laycount is relatively low, but I think I have had more sex than most men… probably top 10%. That is because I have had a lot of LTRs, with lots of sex. Lived with 4 different women. 2 years ago, when the Tokyo Queen and I were dating, I was having about 7 orgasms per week with her alone (2 nights a week, 3-4 orgasms per night). I know most men don’t fuck that much. And that went on for about a year before we slowed down.
In Japan, I had 4 orgasms TOTAL, in 6 weeks. 3 new girls, yes… high “girls per month,” but “low sex per month.”
Since I’ve been back, I’ve had 4 orgasms in 2 weeks, all with Siren. And fucking really excellent sex. Last night was really unbelievable. She and I are a very good match.
I bet this is true of many (most?) daygamers… the “r” types. Low total orgasms… high lay count. That’s my theory.
I think you solve that by having 1-2 regulars, and adding new girls on the side. I think that is what you’re doing. My theory. Trying to make it happen.
“To embrace your wholeness is a good strategy for psychological health.”
HUGE.
“What did she want?”
yes, this is the most advanced way to look at it. the hardest too.
game 101
attraction-comfort-seduction
game 202
todd’s “two cups” model
yohami’s zen game
what does she want?
“advanced” this is actually the simplest question and the easiest way. Im having a hard time understanding what you guy thinks is the biggie. My guess is an inability from the beta frame to read into the female psyche for being used to attribute her with characteristics that she doesnt have, aka “pedestalization” so you basically gaslight yourself while trying to read her.
But this is basic. So basic stuff. This is like when you show your pics – asking you: which one does people like the most?
Is that an advanced question?
You tell a bunch of jokes in a party. Which did they like the most?
With pictures people point at the one they like more, or open up more, with jokes people laugh more, etc. All the time you’re getting feedback from the world.
“What do they want” is the same as asking “what do they respond to”.
From where I stand there’s nothing advanced about asking that question. All it requires is you look at the feedback.
So my guess is there’s a battle between the feedback and your models of perception, which is distorting the feedback and making it unintelligible.
So I ask questions. If I ask you which of your art people like more, can you answer that?
With the people that deal with you on a day to day basis, which version of Rivelino do they want? what do they reward, what do they punish. What do they respond to.
If people had asked me “what do the girls want” while I was operating from beta that would have been very confusing to, as girls reacted to seemingly contradictory ways. Which is why Im guessing that’s the issue. But you tell me.
>> But this is basic. So basic stuff.
>> “What do they want” is the same as asking “what do they respond to”.
Ahhh.. “basic?” You’re right, w/ the picture analogy, it can be as simple as “which one she likes most.” Or in bed… what makes her really squirm with pleasure. Not that hard. But that is about SPOTTING WINS.
What about when you’re getting little or nothing? This is about her “puzzle,” and that is not so obvious. I think this kind of experience comes from having a lot of one of kind interactions, where you eventually win, or get more time with her, and slowly figure her out, and what her early behaviors actually meant. I think this is how you develop that level of “knowing.”
Or when you said The Siren “wasn’t from this world.” That wasn’t a matter of swinging my dick and seeing what she likes (which also works on her, but I’m talking about a different level of insight). That was about having a lot of experience with girls. You were exactly right about her, and I learned that from you, and I can now see it in other girls… but it took experience.
Sometimes you will read the girl correctly. And sometimes you will guess. And sometimes you will never fucking know.
The “Come and Go” girls, where I had very little time with them, the ones that were silent or a no, are the ones I am the least certain about… I don’t know. But I didn’t have much time. It’s not weird that I don’t know.
Maybe this will give you the next piece of your progression –
I showed you the picture of the two guys, the top and the bottom guy. I told you girls give no puzzle or little to the top guy and lots of puzzle to the bottom guy. I told you the puzzle is designed to make you reveal if you’re a top or bottom guy. Also the puzzle is something specific about her about how she wants to be taken, and by what kind of man. I told you that the whole thing, since the beginning, has been a sexual intercourse – and you’ve seen it with the girls who were ready, they jumped into sex like it’s no big deal, and some others that rejected you said “no sex” even you (think) you never brought up sex up, because it’s always about sex, since the first moment, they know it, you know it. I told you what’s impeding your progress here is the addition of your ‘tussle’ which is a form of negotiation where you cede the power to her and then demand that she makes the move. You saw how ‘easy’ it is when the girl wants it, how little requires from you. I told you that the way to do it the alpha way is with ten times less effort – less investment, less chase, less.
Maybe you can see how the world divides in two and there are things that operate from the hot girl frame, and how things operate differently for the not-hot girl.
So keep all that on mind, and now:
“But that is about SPOTTING WINS.”
Exactly. When you’re picking her up, talking to her, because you want to fuck her – as long as she’s there in front of you there is a YES, there is a WIN. Finding that win is your ‘puzzle’ – but this has the same level of simplicity as moving her in bed while you’re fucking her and feeling / listening to / following what works the most. What exactly is that level of difficulty?
Close to zero.
The difficulty you experience is because you’re not following the WIN, but following something else. Somehow you think the Win is not on the table already so you go to manufacture it. In the process, you reveal yourself as a bottom guy, which ‘increases the level of the puzzle’ or, more precisely, you make her less aroused. In the analogy, this is the equivalent of you fucking her and she not liking it, then you moving to a position where she likes it less – and you not correcting course but keep moving into further positions that don’t work, instead of ‘sticking to the basics’ and just fuck her, with all the ‘switching positions’ coming from a frame / belief that she doesn’t like you and you cannot please her, aka the bottom guy.
“What about when you’re getting little or nothing?”
Stick to the basics. When the girls like a guy / see a top guy they offer little to no puzzle and give themselves to him. To bottom guys they offer a wall. To guys they are trying to figure out they offer little puzzles to see how the guy operates, to see if the guy is a top guy. The puzzle here, as usual – remember, they give you a path to take them, that should be obvious for a top guy (because he knows he can fuck her and has done this many times before) but look like a wall for a bottom guy (because he doesnt think he can fuck her and is clueless) so the bottom guy would disqualify himself.
So guess what.
The answer to every time you ask a question on how to get laid with a specific girl or how to do X to X girl always goes back to the same answer: be a top guy.
Even if you don’t figure her out at all, she’ll give herself to the top guy. So continue flirting, “switching positions” and spotting the wins. This is what will be different with every girl. This is a specific flavor – a different position on the dial. With Firecracker it was when you went all physical on her, with honest? girl it was when you went down and intimate, with the virgin on the street is when you became all adventurer, etc. All the girls will tell you upfront their fantasy, they can’t stop themselves – all you have to do is listen. You ‘swing your dick’, you spend some time entertaining yourself and showing your attributes in front of her, and keep going in the direction of fucking her, and spot when you find a “Yes” and double down on that.
“But that is about SPOTTING WINS.”
YES. There is nothing else here but the ability to spot the wins.
Paraphrasing myself from other stuff I’ve said here:
You put your feet on the accelerator and let her have the brake, then drive in a way she never uses it.
Or, you don’t deal with rejection, you deal with her approval. You put your energy in what works, you dont put your energy in what doesnt.
If you escalate you do so when she will say yes, you dont put your energy in what she’ll say no to.
If there’s no obvious pack to take, you change the mood, set the pace, find a new position, go faster, slower, etc. You’re fucking her.
It is not rocket science.
It only looks like rocket science when you’re the bottom guy, because girls ask you to do things so you disqualify yourself, then you proceed to disqualify yourself.
This:
Any and every time you introduce pressure, when it’s excruciating, when you’re convincing, chasing, when you tussle – and any time that you are tolerant of bad behaviour, act needy, o weak – you reveal that you’re a bottom guy and get disqualified. If the girl really likes you she may turn the head and solve the situation herself but the line is on the sand and you’ll lose. Because bottom guys can never win. Go and check that picture.
And if the path is not obvious and she’s not bitting then the answer is: nothing. The answer is never “put more effort and more chase”, the answer is never “try harder” or “chase more”. Anything that comes from bottom guy increases the dissatisfaction and makes you more unattractive. Nature set this up so bottom guys die without reproducing. This is why I make so much emphasis on that if you want to get laid and want this process to be easy for you, first switch to the top guy version of yourself, which will require work, but will still be a walk on the park compared to trying to win while being a bottom guy and trying not to show your hand.
“I think this kind of experience comes from having a lot of one of kind interactions”
Sure, I got laid with a few hundred women. At the beginning though I was clueless. What I didn’t do was to persist doing bottom guy stuff, so I would do little, but it was all top guy stuff, which was enough. A lot of the time I was just non-reactive because all the things that came to my mind were bottom guy stuff. Turns out that non-reaction is also a top-guy trait, so by doing less / responding less / you’re increasing your value in her eyes, even if you don’t know what you’re doing.
“where you eventually win, or get more time with her, and slowly figure her out, and what her early behaviors actually meant.”
Actually, just go back to basics.
When you stop her anywhere and talk to her you’re doing so because you want to fuck her. She knows this, plus she puts you in comparison against every other guy she can fuck or is fucking at the moment, and gives you a rank in there. You don’t know what your rank is, so your mission is to become the no. 1 guy she can fuck, and you do so by displaying your value (displaying dominance, confidence, success related, top guy traits) and arousing her (paying attention to what she responds to and doubling down on it, aka giving her what she wants). With that framework, because we’re talking about fucking her, basically every aspect of the interaction is reduced to she saying YES and NO to things. That’s it. She’s there because there’s a YES, you press that YES, the sexual temperature elevates. You press the NO, the sexual temperature decreases. All of her behavior, when you’re in this mating dance, is mating behavior. All of her behavior is the equivalent of she contorting on bed when you’re fucking her – you don’t need to ‘know’ or care what every little tiny twist she makes means. Take care of the basics – dick in pussy, thrust, change speed, change positions, follow the pleasure. Nature has a great way of taking care of things if you do what matters, which is usually simple.
“That was about having a lot of experience with girls. You were exactly right about her, and I learned that from you, and I can now see it in other girls… but it took experience.”
Yep. Even if we can’t figure this out via comments on a blog (lol) experience will teach you.
“Sometimes you will read the girl correctly. And sometimes you will guess. And sometimes you will never fucking know.”
You can always tell what they responded to and what they didn’t respond to. Sometimes a ‘swish’ can confuse you because if she says YES to everything that gives you little to know – but that just means you were exactly what she needed, you were the exact kind of top guy she was looking for at that moment, so you experienced what it is to be Justin Bieber for one date. Good for you. More girls will be a ‘swish’ clean notches the more your behavior is congruent with top guy behavior – also social status cannot hurt.
“The “Come and Go” girls, where I had very little time with them […] It’s not weird that I don’t know.”
As long as you’re paying attention to what they respond to, and letting that change your perception of the world, that’s enough.
More on this:
“What about when you’re getting little or nothing?”
If she’s giving you little or nothing it means she’s not seeing you as a top guy – or she would give you more. So you keep doing your stuff, but also do little or nothing.
Example. A lot of girls turned ‘cold’ when I was courting them, or would go silent etc – that meant they found better prospects than me. Instead o chasing or trying to compete, I blew them off, nothing big, just found myself other girls who were more interested. That “walking away” counts more than adding “more chase and working harder”, because “walking away” is compatible with top guy, therefore it’s attractive, while “stay enduring cold treatment” is compatible with bottom guy, thus unattractive. So being able to walk away and reciprocate low interest with a big nothing is more attractive than walking the extra mile to figure her out.
In other words she likes it more, so that’s what she wants.
The bottom line – game is about mimicing/adopting the traits of the alpha guy – he gets laid, quite easily.
I guess if you are trying to learn all this or transition into this – one has to keep refining yourself to adopt the traits that are attractive and lose the ones that aren’t. I think you have broken through the wall and gotten a taste for what it is like now – which is great. Now that you are on the other side – it is not about how to figure out this or that girl but what do I need to refine more and what to loose.
That being said -analysing failure is good – however some people are just hard work (like getting tangled up in a barbed wired fence). If you can’t honestly see anything wrong with what you did – racking your brain to see how to better some situation can be a waste of time – knowing that the right situation, done right, should be easy.
Anything that is hard work – just get up and turn and walk away and never look back.
Really excellent comments, Yohami.
I clustered them up, and will take on a few here.
>> remember, they give you a path to take them, that should be obvious for a top guy (because he knows he can fuck her and has done this many times before)
>> The answer to every time you ask a question on how to get laid with a specific girl or how to do X to X girl always goes back to the same answer: be a top guy.
I mostly think this is hard to understand. This is what I was hearing from you last summer that I would always argue with. This is very much like your “Beiber game” type of teachings. You’re not wrong, but this way of teaching is hard for me to understand.
I think I can appreciate it more now… as I’m getting closer to understanding all this.
For me, I started to get this, and to understand you better… when I talked about “make it look easy.” As I typed that up, it was a breakthrough for me.
Top guy? I get it, but it can be distracting. But when I think “make it look easy,” it’s easier for me to get this. Not “fake it,” but actually be “easy” (which is hard for a noob to imagine, but I’m not a noob anymore).
I think this is THE thing I was doing well on those idates in Japan. They were totally unusual moments for me and those girls, but I made them look so easy, so natural, so “everyday,” they all went really well.
>> remember, they give you a path to take them, that [PATH IS EASY] for a top guy (because he knows he can fuck her and has done this many times before [SO IT’S EASY])
^ This is me paraphrasing you
This is partly why all that tussle/convincing is so wrong… it’s clearly not easy. And if it’s not easy, you’re not the top guy.
Going back to your picture, there is nothing easy for the bottom guy. The top guy, it’s so easy, he doesn’t even know what we’re talking about.
“The top guy, it’s so easy, he doesn’t even know what we’re talking about.”
Haha that got me laughing. Yes – even though I was the bottom guy for most my life, Im having a really hard time understanding what’s the hold up and communicating what has to happen, because it slips out of my reality. If we were talking to guy who was born up there, or for whom things happened naturally and only knew to be on top, he’d say “wtf dude, just take her out and chill” and look at you weird.
“be yourself” […] “don’t overthink it” .
“make it look easy,”
Yeah. Take what works for you. Channel that ‘hot girl’ mindset you found. All of the behaviours that will come to you from that are attractive to women. Even your indifference towards them.
>> instead of ‘sticking to the basics’
>> You ‘swing your dick’, you spend some time entertaining yourself and showing your attributes in front of her
>> If there’s no obvious path to take, you change the mood, set the pace, find a new position, go faster, slower, etc.
>> you do so by displaying your value (displaying dominance, confidence, success related, top guy traits) and arousing her
I love this. This is really helpful. You are very close to being “easy to understand” here. This is less “zen,” more practical for me.
And I am studying that RSD Hotseat program now, and Tyler says some very similar stuff…
“Sticking to the basics” is not about being Sherlock Holmes, and trying to focus on the girl. It’s about being top guy, and swinging your dick. Swinging your dick, means being yourself, your attractive, fun, “leader of men,” cocky self.
You basically say that in your last line above…
>> displaying dominance, confidence, success related top guy traits
Here’s Tyler, saying something very similar:
“Dude, it’s the vibe. We teach you how to free associate, I am free associating, I’m flowing, clarity of intent, I have good intent, freedom from outcome… What does the girl feel from me? I’m clear in what I want, I got no outcome at all towards it, I am congruent, I have got a high entitlement to it, and I’m self amused. I mean, it’s just the shit we’re teaching. It’s the shit we fucking teach.”
— TD, Hotseat at Home
I thinking I am starting to see a larger truth here… it’s about going to YOUR WORLD, and letting her join you. You don’t try to figure out her little world, so you fit in. When “there’s no obvious path to take,” you go back to your world, get BIG, swing your dick and see what that does for both of you.
I’m sure you would correct some of what I’m saying here, Yohami… but I think I’m headed toward the direction you want me to go.
>> Even if you don’t figure her out at all, she’ll give herself to the top guy.
Yeah. ^ And this is a really poetic line, BTW. I love it.
I like the analogy of YOUR WORLD. You don’t need to figure her out, just be “easy” and in your own world, where you are masterful, and she will want more of that experience… Beiber doesn’t have to know the girls that well, they are in his world, not the other way around.
“YOUR WORLD”
Yep, that’s the ‘swing dick’ part, you do that on your own, flaunt your stuff. That can and is enough a lot of the time, but then the other part
“AROUSE HER”
While you’re swinging, you’ll find little things that she responds very eager too, she chills, relax, or gets hyped, her pupils dilate, opens up, gets warmer – that’s the YES, that’s “what she responds to” and you double down on that, create a peak, then let it go or break it, then go back to it. When you are able to identify these spots and trigger them on command, that’s when you’re playing ahead of her, that’s how you get the YES on every girl.
But the swinging part is so important that without it you never get to the other half of the dance. So when you proceed to try to rub her and make her aroused you find walls / rejections / problems to solve / things to negotiate / and get wasted against multiple layers of rejections / that wouldnt be there if you had just swung your value in front of her and doubled down when you found the YES spots.
Again this is just like fucking. You don’t ‘negotiate an orgasm’.
Well some weirdos do but you get the point.
>> Any and every time you introduce pressure, when it’s excruciating, when you’re convincing, chasing, when you tussle – and any time that you are tolerant of bad behaviour, act needy, o weak – you reveal that you’re a bottom guy and get disqualified
>> The answer is never “put more effort and more chase”, the answer is never “try harder” or “chase more”. Anything that comes from bottom guy increases the dissatisfaction and makes you more unattractive
Yes.
I have a couple of big take-aways after the intensity of Japan and that hunting trip… “I chase too much” is still a problem I have. I think a lot of 2017 will be about giving this up. I’m not sure how to stop (and I know that sounds crazy, I’m just being honest), but I’ll have a lot of time to think and practice on this idea.
For now… the main thing I have here is that I can create new options, SPOT THE WINS in those new approaches, and focus my attention there. This I can do.
And this fits with what I said above about how you GO TO YOUR WORLD. So if with some girl it’s not “easy,” so I go to my world…
SHORT TERM, right there next to her, in that moment, “be in my world” means I do my thing, look/be BIG, be top guy, focus on topics where I am the master, see if that creates wins with that particular girl.
LONG TERM, create options, move toward wins, move away from “tussle.”
>> Example. A lot of girls turned ‘cold’ when I was courting them, or would go silent etc – that meant they found better prospects than me. Instead o chasing or trying to compete, I blew them off, nothing big, just found myself other girls who were more interested. That “walking away” counts more than adding “more chase and working harder”, because “walking away” is compatible with top guy, therefore it’s attractive
>> A lot of the time I was just non-reactive because all the things that came to my mind were bottom guy stuff. Turns out that non-reaction is also a top-guy trait, so by doing less / responding less / you’re increasing your value in her eyes, even if you don’t know what you’re doing.
This is really helpful. Specific examples make this much more clear to me.
>> just found myself other girls who were more interested
Again, this part… I am all over it. Going back to the street, adding more energy to the Tornado, is really working for me. New options, bigger swagger, and I don’t even have time to look at the “difficult” situations. Top guys don’t have time to dwell in “no,” they are too busy SPOTTING WINS.
I hit up Firecracker this week. After a little back and forth, she said she doesn’t want to get naked (I am certain I said nothing sexual at all, just invited her for a drink). I thanked her for being clear, and then I asked “what’s up?” She came back with “What what’s up”… and I didn’t respond. I’m not going to. I don’t want to chase her or convince her. Fuck that.
I think I’ll wait until I have an empty night and I’m hungry for sex, and I’ll just tell her to come over. That’s it. And if she doesn’t say yes, I’ll ignore her response and move on.
Until then, I’ll focus on the “yes” I have. Tonight… the Siren. Tuesday, Velvet Mouth is coming over. Adding new girls to the funnel this week.
Yep, you’re on the path.
“(I am certain I said nothing sexual at all, just invited her for a drink).”
You’re pinging her because you want to fuck her. She knows this. Every girl you talk to knows this. It’s only in your mind, for some unspecified reason that I can’t understand anymore, that you believe that by not saying ‘sex’ explicitly you think she thinks the interaction is about something else.
Every girl you stop anywhere knows you want to fuck her. When they say yes to see you or give you their contact or text they are dealing with a fuck buddy – that’s you. Act the part and there’s sex on the table.
Firecracker – either she’s feeling guilty, or she found a new guy to ‘not cheat’ on the bf, or both. Re-framings like “never means friday” are not chase. Pinging her when you want to fuck her is a good move.
>> You’re pinging her because you want to fuck her. She knows this. Every girl you talk to knows this. It’s only in your mind, for some unspecified reason that I can’t understand anymore, that you believe that by not saying ‘sex’ explicitly you think she thinks the interaction is about something else.
Agreed. You’re right.
The reason I said I never talked about sex in this exchange… is because you know I often talk about sex, instead of just going for it. I didn’t do that.
Of course I was contacting her because I wanted to fuck her.
She actually taught me something about all this… once, I tried to make a date with her, and she said, “I’m on my period.” And that seems sort of out of place to me, but I liked it. She said that, because of course it was about sex. Many girls would come out, and then tell you later, but she is a very clear this is about sex.
>> either she’s feeling guilty, or she found a new guy to ‘not cheat’ on the bf,
Yeah… I know she saw him in January. I don’t care why… I’ll try again later and not worry about it in the meantime.
Still here? go back to the Siren bro :-D get ready shave jerk off or something
“make it look easy” — excellent.
that’s a great way to differentiate the top guy from the bottom guy.
in other words, confidence and skill.