The “Unapproachable” Korean Actress
Here is a story about an odd, but interesting date with a very beautiful girl. She is from Korea. I picked her up on Wednesday. Had her out on Thursday night.
I was out with my Russian friend. He was in the city, and wanted to see me run daygame. He’s a little older than me, but has pretty good game… He approached a few girls before we even met up. I like that about him.
We walked around, did some approaches, chatted about theory and broke down each of my sets so I could answer his questions and tell him what I am trying to do.
There she was… About 5’3″, great style, black pants, and some kind of shirt that was completely open in the back. Very cute face.
I’m still not certain about her age, but I would guess about 23-25 years old.
When I stopped her I was surprised how big her boobs were. High neck-ed, but sleeveless shirt. Silk. I assumed her bra was padded at the time. And other than where her shirt ties at the base of her neck, her back was wide open and on display. How do you hold up big boobs with no bra??
She was hot, but I wasn’t intimidated. I was a mix of hungry and curious about her. It felt like a normal approach to me, no big deal. However, I was “cold,” hadn’t warmed up yet, and my flow was stunted. I stuttered a bit. I was surprised she stayed in the exchange… Which is what I told my Russian friend afterwards as I told him what the approach meant to me.
It went like this:
I noticed you blah, blah, blah… And she kind of stared at me. I asked if she understood me… She said she didn’t speak English well, could I please speak slower? That was a better reaction than I was expecting after my weak approach.
I asked why she had no noticeable accent if she didn’t speak English? Why… because she is an actress. And she had an English speaking role before. Ahhh. Okay.
She was in this city for a few more days, so I took her number. She has a US phone while she’s here in California.
Then, and now, there is something a little mysterious about her.
She didn’t tell me her name when I introduced myself, and seemed to dodge the question. And as I took her number I asked again and she said, “You can call me, Jane.” Hmmm.
I said my goodbyes, rolled off and debriefed with the Russian. He thought it was a great set. I told him it was awkward. I was competent, but not smooth or powerful.
Last night, texting her. Went well.
NASH: There was something a little mysterious about you today…
NASH: Made me curious.
NASH: You were also a bit charming.
HER: Wait … a bit?? ?
HER: What made you mysterious about me?
This was me baiting her into a conversation… and it worked.
NASH: She is a little mysterious…
NASH: Because she is on a long trip, by herself.
NASH: That is a little bit brave…
HER: Oh is she pretty?
NASH: Is the Korean girl pretty???
NASH: So so.
NASH: : ]
Do you see her reach for that “is she pretty” comment? That says a lot about her. It was fun to pull the rug out from under her with my “so so” response.
And I thought that comment was hysterical, but I wasn’t sure if I would blow myself out… maybe it was too harsh?
She replied the next morning. No reaction to the “so so” line. And we exchanged messages back/forth until I got her to agree to come out for a drink… Even though she doesn’t drink alcohol.
None of the girls I meet on the street drink. I had to double-down on my offer, and tell her I know a place with great non-alcohol drinks to get her to say yes. But my “non-alcoholic drink game” is getting tighter… I get a lot of practice.
We met near the train (same spot where I met Good Smell last Friday) and I took her to the fancy hotel bar for a virgin drink.
As she showed up, she looked… pretty fucking hot. She is a very beautiful girl. Not tall enough to be classically beautiful, but her face is near an “8.” And she has a sex-kitten body, with big boobs and a great hip-to-waist ratio. She was dressed…
Sophisticated. Long patterned dress, up to her neck, belted at the waist. And open, flowy sleeves that I know from Japanese fashion. She’s clearly another high-end girl. I didn’t ask, but I am sure she comes from a wealthy family. She was charming, graceful, proper, and beautiful.
We walked toward the bar. As I started to run my game and get personable a with her, she would jerk her body away from me — physically pull away, just the top 1/2 of her body — whenever I would get even slightly into her personal space. I was assuming familiarity, but not making any kind of a move that would merit that reaction. When I would lean into her personal space even slightly, and she would quickly lean back away from me. And other than the quickness of that gesture, she was perfectly calm about it. Almost no change on her pretty face at all. And since I didn’t freak out, she didn’t either… But she was a bit jumpy about her body. At least at first.
In some ways, her jumpiness seemed like a shit test. Maybe because she was so calm. And she would watch me each time… Like the whole thing was some kind of experiment. But I am so used to girls being cautious on the street I had no reason to be alarmed. And yet… this was unusual for a date.
At the bar, on a couch, side by side. Her, in that great dress. I sat close to her, and she was perfectly happy about it. No caution from her at that point. She was having a good time. Big eyes. Smiling. Asking me questions… Even more than most girls do.
She was telling a story and I bought it back around to she and I, saying I like how we met. And she says, “I think you are brave.” I riff on that for a second and she says:
HER: “…I am unapproachable.”
Interesting, huh. I’ve heard guys say that about a girl, but never a girl say that about herself. She said most guys are afraid to approach her.
Her saying that is about her knowing that she is hot. And she is a very hot/beautiful girl. She is both hot and beautiful. Refined (her face, her poise, her style) and sexy (her body, her confidence).
Interesting to hear her call herself “unapproachable.” Never heard those words out of a girl’s mouth before.
She was almost cold/bitchy about it. She is exactly my type in many ways, but even I don’t think she is as hot as she thinks she is.
And as we talk a bit about sex, she leaned forward and said she is bisexual. She seemed to be showing off and I think she was expecting that to have more of an impact on me than it did. And what does that mean? Not much. She has never even kissed a girl… But she wants to, and has sexual dreams about girls. And she loves big boobs.
Despite all that jerking-away from me when we were on the street, she was easy to touch as we sat together. She had her arms folder across her body for much of the date, but a lot of that is her “properness.”
Her fingers were sticking out from those crossed arms and I reach down and held them, and she didn’t flinch at all. I could grab her bicep, no problem. Had my hand on her back much of the night. Etc.
After her bisexual thing, I walked thru the exact same stripper fantasy that I did with Good Smell six days ago. Those girls are looking for very different girls for their first same-sex hookup. Fun conversation. Both times.
And while I’m comparing them… the Actress is a full point higher than Good Smell. Not in the same ballpark. But I’m not sure who I like more. The Actress is much hotter on paper, and younger, but I’m not sure my cock would agree… And my cock is my CEO. He makes all the really important decisions.
We sipped our drinks and she was on some borderline conceited rant about her boobs, and I cut her off… I told her I don’t care about boobs (and I don’t), and that I am more interested in her neck… And I reached up and stroked it with the back of my finger and she took it smooth as silk.
The Actress has three tattoos. I could see one above her boot on her ankle, so I asked about it. She says she has a big flower on her belly. The tattoos surprised me. I could see her being too high-end for that, maybe even judgmental about tattoos… But she is not. Goes well perhaps with the bit of adventurous spirit in her.
It was like that.
And a bit after 7 PM, I asked if she was hungry. She said she was not. I said I was, and that she should come with me to my ramen spot. She could watch me eat. And have something if she was hungry. She agreed.
In the elevator, just she and I… she walks in, leans back against the wall… Totally seductive. She was looking one million percent tempting. So… I walked into her and made a move to kiss her.
I have done this exact move, in the same elevator, with so many girls. She gave me a big “no,” and then, “I’m sorry” and she touched me. I leaned back and laughed. And she immediately smiled, and gave me big, hot eyes, she was happy.
This move is okay. In a basic way, it communicates that I’m not the “gay best friend” type, and that this is a sexual date. Very often, the kiss lands later in the date… this one is just a type of communication. However, I don’t think any of the girls I’ve tried to kiss in this elevator have kissed me. It’s never worked.
And I’m going to quote Yohami here, from a recent exchange on this blog between he and Daygame in Shitsville.
DAYGAME IN SHITSVILLE: Of course, she never replied to my messages a few days after
DAYGAME IN SHITSVILLE: and I never heard from her again
YOHAMI: …you pushing past the girls resistance point, aka making a move before she’s ready
YOHAMI: And the expected result
YOHAMI: You probably could have banged her that night or the following day by ramping it up.
I want to help translate Yohami here… Daygame in Shitsville was over-escalating. And yet Yohami is talking about “ramping it up.” I do not think Yohami means “be more aggressive.” That’s not his point… but I think I know where he is going.
Yohami… we need you to lay out your definition of a “ramp” more properly. I just combed my blog again, but I’m still using RSD Tyler’s comments to help explain your concept. I quoted this before in my “How to Escalate” post.
“Fun… up… and then, ‘lets go!’
“You only do that kind of thing if they are feeling amazing
“You don’t do it if they’re not feeling amazing, don’t do it
“You only go for an escalation if they are going to say yes
“I don’t escalate when they’re not going to say yes, why would I do that?”
— RSD Tyler
So in Daygame in Shitsville’s story, he tried to pull from a party, with a girl that seemed to like him, but she made him take her back when they are halfway to his house. And Yohami is saying, that’s because he didn’t have “a ramp” for that particular part of the seduction. I think that is what he is saying.
I get that from Yohami saying, “pushing past the girls resistance point.” And in that elevator, I heard “no” because I was also pushing past her resistance point.
But Yohami’s comment doesn’t say how to escalate correctly. Yohami would say, “give her more of what she wants, less of what she doesn’t want.” But in an open situation like the elevator… and if you’re trying to pace the overall seduction… what is a player supposed to do?
Tyler’s comment is more explicit. Make her feel “amazing,” then escalate. So maybe Daygame in Shitsville was supposed to build more buying temperature first before he tried to take her home? Get her more worked up. “Build a ramp” toward that part of the seduction?
YOHAMI: That’s what Im referring to when I say that you take the accelerator and let her have the brake, but then you drive in a way she never has to use the brake.
This is Yohami’s accelerator/brake metaphor… but it’s almost the same thing. And I LOVE THAT QUOTE. That is the #1 quote on my mind right now.
So back to my date and the elevator… she hit the brake. So I did something that made her do that. I see that.
That leaves me with two questions… 1.) Is there something I could have done there that would made the kiss happen? Or is that that wrong question? Maybe I should be asking, 2.) What should I do instead, because kissing girls at that moment is not working… how can I “drive better,” to move the seduction along, but keep her foot off the brake??
I don’t know.
To Tyler’s point… maybe I just spike her first in some way, then kiss her.
But when Tyler asks “when they’re not going to say yes, why would I do that?” I can answer that question:
I am using that move to set the tone. I do not like to wait until the end of the date to try to kiss a girl. I want to make sure I am communicating this is a sexual date, and moving us toward sex… even in a “two steps forward, one step back” kind of way. And I don’t actually think that being rejected, briefly, in a situation like this, is a bad thing. The fact that I don’t freak out at all, is another show of calibration and confidence and experience to the girl.
But I am still operating at a “basic” or “intermediately” level here, and I’d like to learn more… I’d like to get better. I don’t want to make the same mistakes over and over and over. I’d like to know what the “advanced” thing to do is… but maybe my game isn’t good enough for the advanced move right now?
Off to dinner, via the train. She is such a fancy girl, she looked out of place on public transportation. Like a princess on a donkey.
We arrived, and I walked that princess past the crack heads at the train stop to my ramen place — which was perfect, as usual. We sat at the counter, ordered some food, and continued to chat and to get to know each other.
She is a proud, strong girl. Capable. Independent, as she is on a month-long trip by herself in California. And she is also a vain girl. Conceited. She can be shiny and sweet, and in a childish way, mostly, it seems, when you surprise her or dominate her.
I think (like most girls), this is what she needs. A dominant man. Someone that isn’t overly impressed with her big tits and pretty face. Someone that isn’t intimidated by her… and that might make her feel safe. I bet she is dying to meet that man.
When we talked about her perfume, she asked if I wear a scent, and I said no… That I don’t even shower, that I smell bad, worse than a dog. She loved it. As we were talking about men, she said she likes a gentleman, and I said I wasn’t like that at all, that I was bad, and mean, and rough. She said, “oh!,” And her eyes sparkled.
Whenever I would push her away, or disqualify myself in some cocky way, she would light up… Which is to say… standard attraction works on her.
We talked about her body at some point. She has D-cup boobs, and has had them since she was 11. And she has great hips. And while she just had sex for the first time last year… She has been seen as sexual her whole life. And while she works it to her advantage… I don’t think she has always been comfortable with her role in the sexual marketplace.
I think she likes the power her hotness provides her… but she is also quite bitter about it.
One of the key moments over dinner was again, about sex, when she said:
HER: Men just want me for my body.
She was cold and defensive as she said it. I told her so.
As I called her out for being cold, she was a mix of defiant and sexy, and then her eyes sparkled, a flash of something young and childish again. She said I was right, and we actually connected some there. I could see the attraction. And she softened. And I pointed that softening out to her. I was reading her pretty well.
It is interesting how sexual she thinks she is, and how confident she is about how men see her, and how little sex she’s actually had. This is inline with her bisexual comment, even though she’s never touched a girl. She’s putting on a front… But she believes it. Or acts like she does.
She is an actress, after all.
And this is a wild guess… But there might be sexual abuse there with this girl. Perhaps, something a little dark around her sexuality, perhaps when she was younger. She doesn’t bait with you with sex (again, she assumes you are intimidated), but uses her appeal as part of her power.
I’m not certain.
Also: For some reason the idea of her Dad came up for me, probably because she never mentioned him. She said her younger sister is her best friend (and she is possessive about the sister), and that she and her mom and the sister are tight… No mention of Dad. And my internal radar went off about that topic, so I never brought it up.
Overall, I’d say the date was definitely going well, with that ongoing mix of coldness combined with genuine attraction.
She has some kind of allergic reaction right now. Some lotion she used that gave her a strong allergic reaction. She even went to the hospital for it since she’s been on this trip. And it makes her skin itch. Her arm was red, and she was reaching up the sleeve of her pretty dress during dinner to scratch it. And pat it. It was increasingly a problem and she was more and more distracted.
I paid the bill and moved us outside. I wasn’t sure if the allergy meant the date was over. I didn’t know.
But earlier in the date I learned that she loves ice cream. So, after dinner and outside… I was in the same situation I was in with Miss Good Smell last week. This time, I didn’t give her any choices or suggest going home to her hotel. I said, “come have ice cream with me.”
And she said no.
She apologized, but said her arm was making her crazy and she needed to get back to her hotel to take a pill (I assume an anti-histamine). She was not coming with me.
Okay. I told her to call herself a car and she did.
As the car arrived, I moved towards her to try to kiss her again. She made an alarmed type of reaction, pulled her head back, said something… But was immediately warm, big sparkly eyes and attracted again immediately after she rejected the kiss. I said “come here,” and she said, “a kiss?!!!” And I said, “right here” and pointed to my cheek and she kissed me. Big smile from her. Then she was in the car, waving goodbye, and she was gone.
I walked to a local beer bar for a double IPA. I wrote most of this post while I caught that buzz. It reminded me of my post-date routine when I was in Japan… and my beer bar in Tokyo, a block away from my apartment.
I can say she had a very strong effect on me. She wound me up. I needed that beer to cool off after the date.
Two hours later:
HER: I took a shower and took a pill
HER: Thank you today and i am so sorry
HER: I couldn’t focus anything
HER: Have a good night
I didn’t reply until the next morning, and then something positive and a light tease. No response.
I figured she was gone. I know she is off to LA soon, and I assumed I was one night of entertainment and that was it.
I tried once more, 24 hours after the date, pinged her asking if she liked pancakes… I was going to see if I could set up a breakfast date. No response.
So I think that’s it. Another daygame adventure. Another mysterious little sex-kitten fades into the night.
Good experience, all the same.
Congrats man, great text lines. I have to read this throughly but passing comment.
“To ramp up” is to warm up before making a move. This is the tease / swing dick part. You flirt and look for when she’s open for a move, then you make the move, and when she’s responding to the move you make an extra move. Then retreat and give space. Then iterate.
On the elevator – making the move seems ok because she leaned against the wall in a seductive manner – inviting you to make a move, which she was expecting. Sounds like that particular “no” was part of her routine, so this went along with her plan and why she looked satisfied afterwards.
Me – if Im in an elevator and the girl is leaning in a provocative manner prompting me to make a move, I would tease and escalate while breaking her pattern.
(with my cocky grin) – so, have you had sex in an elevator?
This is an instance of “announcing” that is cocky funny and breaks that tension she’s creating while elevating the temperature. She’ll react to that with a similar “pleased” look because I was able to read her language. She’ll probably laugh. If so that’s the “ramp”, I come closer and say “mm you smell good”. If she reacts positively I kiss her, if I sense any kind of wall, I deflect that and say that she smells like a cheese sandwich. Shen she laughs to that, I kiss her.
Do you see how the resistance is never faced frontally.
Ramp – gradual. Each peek is preceded by something smaller. The smaller thing is the tease. When you see the opening (that look) you make a move. When she likes the move you triple down. Then guy chill out again.
excellent example and explanation, yohami.
and excellent post nash!
Thanks, man. She was an interesting girl… it was a good experience. And a good chance to try to learn about how I can be better.
And DAMN!!!! I do wish I could have seen that little girl naked.
“while breaking her pattern.”
hmm, don’t think i understand this part.
Break her pattern means – there’s no gain in doing *exactly* what a girl is telling you do to, specially during the screening phase, it equals to becoming her puppet and being a follower, even if what she is prompting you to do looks like progression.
So if she’s prompting you to do a specific move, you can probably do better by taking an alternative move that also uses the opening, it will reveal if there was a trap. In this particular case she was leaning against the wall to make him move (like every other guy) and then she says no like she does to every other guy. So breaking her pattern and asking her if she’s had sex in an elevator is taking the opening into a new more frisky direction, which she wasnt expecting, so that will elicit emotions and make her lose control, she’ll experience that little peak, which is the foot for your actual move to tell her to come here and kiss you.
Basically don’t let her dictate specifically what’s the next move you’ll take. But do follow the dance and when she’s open for a move do make one. But one of your own.
GENIUS x1000. FUCK.
I’m glad you’re calling me Shitsville once again – Captain Argentina sounds a bit fruity to me, to be honest ;-)
Awesome story. I like your writing style in that it provides a recollection of facts and tells the story just as it happened without losing the narrative appeal.
>>> “So maybe Daygame in Shitsville was supposed to build more buying temperature first before he tried to take her home? Get her more worked up. “Build a ramp” toward that part of the seduction?”
Definitely. With the benefit of hindsight I can say for sure that it was miscalibration on my part; I acted hastily as if this was a fast SDL attempt due to one of the two leaving town in the next few hours, when in fact I had all the time in the world. Furthermore, I failed to embrace the context fully – i.e.: this was not daygame, but social circle – and missed a most valuable resource: HER social circle. Granted, this could become a further roadblock in closing the deal, but I estimate my odds were definitely higher had I taken her back inside after the first kiss. Also, I could have gone for the extraction at any point later that night. For some reason – I was kind of drunk – I thought I had one shot to isolate her and remove her from external influences, and if I let her inside at any point it was game over. That’s why I panicked when she said: “let’s go back inside”, grabbed her hand and effortlessly lead her to my car and the rest is history.
>>> “1.) Is there something I could have done there that would made the kiss happen?”
This is the eternal question. My two cents: embrace the mystery.
>>> “I am using that move to set the tone. I do not like to wait until the end of the date to try to kiss a girl. I want to make sure I am communicating this is a sexual date, and moving us toward sex… even in a two steps forward, one step back kind of way. And I don’t actually think that being rejected, briefly, in a situation like this, is a bad thing. The fact that I don’t freak out at all, is another show of calibration and confidence and experience to the girl.”
There you go… As someone said once: “you don’t want to be dealing with the bulk of her resistance at the sex location” – or midway, mind you. “So start to make it come out as early as possible, and deftly deal with it in small bursts”.
>>> “And she said no… Then she was in the car, waving goodbye, and she was gone… I figured she was gone. I know she is off to LA soon, and I assumed I was one night of entertainment and that was it… So I think that’s it. Another daygame adventure. Another mysterious little sex-kitten fades into the night.”
Don’t you love them all the more when they do that? I have to go with Krauser here, and say that my view of the seduction process – spinning multiple plates, that is – has shifted from viewing it as a game of chess to the analogy of poker: you lose most of the hands, but when you win, you win big.
>> This is the eternal question. My two cents: embrace the mystery.
Yeah. That is part of this game, my friend. Many “puzzles” will never be solved.
>> Don’t you love them all the more when they do that?
No. I don’t, actually. I really don’t like girls that are hard to get. I might have a good experience anyway… but I DEFINITELY like girls that I can catch the best.
As they say… a bird in the hand is worth two “bushes” on the street.
But I do like the mystery, in general. It’s a great game… in large part because it’s hard to win.
I guess it’s a matter of preference and degree. I don’t like princess behaviour either, but I know that when it’s game (YHT), it will most probably be a challenge to get her. Once in a blue moon it’s a downslide, but this is rare.
By the way, I’d like to know what your policy on number deletion is… do you have a system, some kind of “numbers protocol” or rules, or do you just go with your gut? I have a well defined policy on the subject, though I wonder how other players deal with this very basic topic. In general, I tend to give them about three – sometimes two – chances of coming out on a date, and whenever I sense lack of interest/responsiveness or evidence she’s just set to waste my time I delete the number. Even if she keeps on responding with interest but doesn’t come out. I believe this attitude prevents the scarcity and chasing mentality.
But Tom, from tddaygame.com has a completely different policy, which makes sense in its own way:
What are your thoughts on this regard? Just curious…
Hey Daygame in Shitsville.
Just read this ^ post you added from Tom at TDdaygame.
>> Just a quick tip because I know that many guys are discarding their numbers after flake/lack of responsiveness. But why rob yourself of chance to meet with the girl later?
^ I agree. But… I have almost ZERO examples of girls that hit me up weeks/months later.
EXCEPT… the girl I made out with in Banana Republic this week.
And to be honest… I know stories of guys like Krauser that get “pinged” by girls that seem to have disappeared, and that had never happened to me (before this week).
I see these things as examples of my progress… that I will know I’m getting better when these things happen to me… and I’ve seen a lot of that come true already.
Currently… the “teenager/virgin” lay is one of those milestones I am close to, but having experienced yet. It”ll happen. I’ve dated so many virgins/teenagers at this point…
Cheer to you, man. Hope the new city is treating you well!
>> “To ramp up” is to warm up before making a move. This is the tease / swing dick part. You flirt and look for when she’s open for a move, then you make the move, and when she’s responding to the move you make an extra move. Then retreat and give space. Then iterate.
Great. That’s where I thought you were at with this… but I’ll quote this now as I write. And this gives me another chance to try to work this into my psychology.
>> the move seems ok because she leaned against the wall in a seductive manner
To be honest, I was going to try to kiss this girl anyway… but as I remembered the scene, that is what she did.
>> This is an instance of “announcing” that is cocky funny and breaks that tension she’s creating while elevating the temperature.
I see how this is different than the kind of announcing I was doing last Fall when I would say, “I want to take you back to my place and take your clothes off.”
>> She’ll react to that with a similar “pleased” look because I was able to read her language. She’ll probably laugh. If so that’s the “ramp”, I come closer and say “mm you smell good”. If she reacts positively I kiss her, if I sense any kind of wall, I deflect that and say that she smells like a cheese sandwich. Shen she laughs to that, I kiss her.
Okay… this is you being specific. Looks like very good game. And it is REALLY helpful. Thank you.
I have the THEORY (“ramp”, or as the RSD guys say, “take her at the flood”). And this is a great EXAMPLE. Less “Zen,” more “how to.”
>> Do you see how the resistance is never faced frontally.
Sort of. I obviously don’t have this down yet… but I am trying to work it into my game and my psychology.
I like Daygame in Shitsville’s comment:
>> There you go… As someone said once: “you don’t want to be dealing with the bulk of her resistance at the sex location” – or midway, mind you. “So start to make it come out as early as possible, and deftly deal with it in small bursts”.
That is what I mean, exactly. That’s why I go for a kiss and almost hope she rejects it… but again, I think I can do better.
>> Do you see how the resistance is never faced frontally.
Yeah, I’m trying.
Another thing that comes to mind is that you never want to make her say “no.” In a basic way, her saying no can be useful, to the point of Shitsville’s comment. But in an advance way… it’s the opposite of a “yes ladder.” You’re starting a “no ladder” with that first “no.” And you’re taking yourself out of the category of advanced guys… that never make her say “no.”
Another great paradox of game… only super basic guys and advance guys never hear “no.” But for totally different reasons. The super basic guy stays in LJBFs, or never makes a move. The advance guy is so calibrated, knows how to “ramp,” so she never hits the brake.
THANK YOU, YOHAMI!
Great lessons, man.
>> Break her pattern means – there’s no gain in doing *exactly* what a girl is telling you do to
Agreed. This is really important point to understanding women.
I am thinking about this a lot lately.
They will often give you two choices… and you lose with either. Her pattern usually sucks.
I call it “judo” when you INVENT A 3RD OPTION. That’s how I think of it.
This one is recent…
Siren said, “I am so stupid.” And I could have agreed (which would have been a dumb move), or… told her “no, you’re not stupid… blah, blah, blah…” And that would bore both of us to death. So I said, “You’re not stupid, you’re delicious.” This was all via text. And she gave me a cute emoticon back, thread was cut, we moved on. That was judo. I distracted her from her pattern.
I’m not saying that is great game, or anything… but I didn’t want to ignore her, not debate her intelligence… so linking her comment to a nonsensical “you’re delicious” — it basically changed the subject. That was my “3rd option.” And rerouted her dead-thread into something positive.
Very often with women it’s about “inventing a 3rd option.” This breaks her pattern and surprises her… and girls like both. As their pattern usually means everyone loses. Fuck her pattern.
We lead. A “3rd option” is us leading. Her pattern is us following. Following her means everyone loses.
I am also loving RSDs “be at the cause, not at the effect.” That is about never getting near her pattern. But if you see it… disrupt it. Don’t react. Lead.
I just read this on The Alpha Teacher’s blog… another good “ramp” example.
>> From there, I grabbed hold of both Dorothy’s hands, teased her so she would give me a reaction, pulled her in, Eskimo-kissed-closed her then pulled back. The kiss was on. Another level achieved. I could kiss her anytime now. I liked to wait.
It’s that part about “teased her so she would give me a reaction, pulled her in, Eskimo-kissed-closed her then pulled back.”
He is saying he could have kissed her then, and I believe him. But that is good “ramping.” That tease, the reaction, and then he pulls her in.
” My escalation is simple, lean and efficient – natural. I wait for a point in the conversation where we are both conspiring, smiling or laughing at the same thing, I then grab one of the girl’s hand and hold it, playing with it or interlocking fingers, resting on the table or on one of her legs. It’s a level achievement.”
There is another example from the same post… that “I wait for a point in the conversation where we are both conspiring, smiling or laughing.” Who knows what he did to cause that “conspiring, smiling or laughing,” but that was the ramp, and then he escalates.
That’s good game.
I spent an hour writing a breakdown then I hit the “previous post” instead of post comment. Fuck.
Here’s the succint. The parts in your story where she seemed turned on where right before you made a move (that she elicited) and she bounced you back. That means she’s turned on by turning down advances. It goes along with she trying to put the word “pretty’ in your mouth, and saying she’s unapproachable. That is her game. Her sexuality involves a wall, which you detected saying there’s something dark about it. There’s something raunchy about her, shown by the belly flower tattoo, it’s all an act. Her main skill is dealing with out of control beta attention that she’s good at getting, and also deflecting, and that activity is also what turns her on, so that would indicate that to have sex with her you have to do more of that, which means, more unsolicited advances. Yes, this seems to be a girl who WANTS you to splash against her wall. This is not something I’d do and I may have done the tease / dominance thing that you did at the end of the date, reading her and telling her things. But she reacted with more enthusiasm to bouncing advances, so that’s her “puzzle”, and eventually she’d open up after you’ve wasted enough energy on her.
That thing that she’s a bisexual AND a virgin is unadultered beta bait to make you fantasize of having her. Most men will try to have that trophy, which is how she looks at herself.
My conclusion though is that she’s a sex worker, travelling companion, because it matches all the checkboxes including the raunchy belly flower tattoo, her functional english, and her ability to elicit beta moves and her skill and calm when deflecting them. She’s done this too many times.
Edit: she would be turned on AFTER bouncing your move, not before.
Fake name. That’s huge red flag too.
>> That means she’s turned on by turning down advances. It goes along with she trying to put the word “pretty’ in your mouth, and saying she’s unapproachable. That is her game.
Yeah… that’s a good read.
>> There’s something raunchy about her, shown by the belly flower tattoo, it’s all an act.
Hmmm, maybe. I intentionally left that part about her tattoos in there… that seemed relevant.
>> Yes, this seems to be a girl who WANTS you to splash against her wall.
I think she’s conflicted… a dysfunctional “sex princess.” I think she loves/hates the sexual attention, and hasn’t resolved that.
>> This is not something I’d do and I may have done the tease / dominance thing that you did at the end of the date, reading her and telling her things.
I think she would respond to hard dominance. I think that would break thru the dysfunction. Something like “cut the shit, kiss me now.” Very firm. I think she’s turn into a “little girl” if I could get her alone and then do that.
>> dominance thing that you did at the end of the date, reading her and telling her things
She really did soften when I called her cold. And I “broke the frame” when I said it, I went meta. So we weren’t talking about her body/sex… we were talking only about her comment. And that allowed her to get out of her game for minute… and she liked that. Not “turn on.” Not sparkly eyes. But connection. It was almost childish… and she seemed to appreciate being “non sexy” for second. I don’t think she was faking it…
I think she wants dominance. Because she is a bit broken. And dominance helps her through her broken parts… because she’s not in charge.
>> there’s something dark about it.
I am still thinking this might be about abuse. The look in her eyes when she said “men just want me for my body” was pretty intense. I think she’s “wounded.” And she wasn’t asking to be saved… I think the wound is real. And she is using power to deal with it.
>> That thing that she’s a bisexual AND a virgin
She’s not a virgin. She said she had sex for the first time only this year…. that could be bullshit, but she never came off as a virgin… only as a “lesbian virgin.” And I agree that comment was bait to get some power over me sexually.
>> My conclusion though is that she’s a sex worker, travelling companion
>>She’s done this too many times.
Hmmm… interesting read.
I don’t know about that… sex worker? There might be a pay-for-sex hustle here. But some of her acting stories were convincing.
She has definitely tooled a lot of guys… tooling betas, she’s pro. And more aggressive than most girls about it.
If she’s a sex worker, she didn’t even hint at getting anything out of me.
Hmmm… interesting experience. Thanks for your read, Yohami. It was fun to analyze what it was I saw.
My one hour breakdown was more funny and the sex worker companion was tongue in cheek, I’d have to see her to know for sure.
But a pro tooler of betas with high income for sure :-D
“But some of her acting stories were convincing.” There are not in your narration here (nor have to be) so Im going with what I have. Would be good to see how she responded to the dominance too, that’s one of the things I had broke down, I’ll see if I have time later, there’s a lot of interesting bits here.
nash, i am an intermediate too, not advanced mastery level like yohami or tyler, but i think i can add some insight here too:
your “elevator situation” reminds me somewhat of lovedrop’s “W hotel rooftop” story, and what i mean is, it was a shit test.
lovedrop tells a great story of being on a date with a girl on the rooftop of the W hotel. they are starting the date, getting along, and then she starts stroking his back. he gets excited and strokes her back too. BOOM. TEST FAILED. the date goes downhill and she disappears.
lovedrop explains: it was a fake IOI to see how picky he really was. the way he explains it, she shows fake physical/sexual interest, and what does he do? he has two options:
1. he can qualify her — “hey, you are sweet, but we just met, tell me more about yourself” — which proves to her that he is not desperate for her tits and ass, since that’s all he really knows about her so far on the first date.
2. he can jump into her sexual hoop/trap and return the physical touch, in which case he has just proven through his actions that, aha, he is just a horny dog like all the other men!!! test failed.
your case was a more sophisticated version of the W hotel rooftop story, imo. it was a trap, and your eagerness turned her off. you didn’t either connect with her more on an emotional level (EC), or didn’t qualify her more on other things by being more of a dick or asshole or something (here is where i am not exactly sure what to do. i usually fall for the trap of doing **too much** EC, so i don’t want to start saying the wrong thing). but somehow, i think the goal is to make her justify herself, qualify herself, to DO MORE before she can earn ***your*** sexual interest, you know what i mean?
and that’s why i think yohami’s response is so brilliant. his reply to her sexual trap is to call out her trap, to sidestep it, and to escalate it — all three at the same time! that’s an EXPERT CASANOVA move, imo, and that proves to her that he is a master at handling women — boom, panties off!
anyway, just thinking out loud here. the sexual trap thing is something that needs to be talked about much more — AND is something that mystery talked about many years ago! remember? he always said, get her attracted, and then USE THAT ATTRACTION to get her investing.
it’s one of the key insights of the mystery method, going from A2 to A3.
A2 is when you see that she is attracted to you (she opens up to you in the elevator through her body language)
A3 is where you make her EARN your attraction to her.
keep up the great work. you and yohami make an amazing team of breaking this stuff down!
Hey Riv… sorry for the late reply. I’ve been thinking about your comments here, and I wanted to take my time and digest them.
I like your read of all this.
I don’t think Yohami is “calling out her trap.” I think he might call that “Tussle.” I see some of that as frame battle stuff… and I want less of that in my game. It’s rarely fun for me.
I see him doing his “swing your dick” thing here. That is not “overly strategic” nor “reactive. He “swings his dick,” and when she likes something… bam, he escalates.
Really ^ solid game. And it’s all about “you,” not about her game or tests. It’s about “your show,” and you pump her for more action when she is loving your show. Good, clean game. I like it.
See that example from Alpha Teacher I posted above… he and Yohami are doing the same thing. No struggle to get her to qualify (=”make her work”). Just testing for what makes her reactive positively, more of that that, and escalation when she’s “at the flood.”
here it is! lovedrop’s W hotel rooftop story. i love lovedrop. i learned so much from him. (he co-wrote “the mystery method” with mystery, and actually some people say he was the actual author).
I listened to this:
Lovedrop… “Okay…. I’ll touch her back.”
^ This is fundamentally reactive. Literally, SHE escalated, and he returned that back with the exact same gesture. He wasn’t leading, he was following her lead.
I see this as her having more experience than him… and that turned her off.
He missed moments to touch her, so she supplied them. When he mirrored her leadership, she was disappointed that he wasn’t leading… he was following along like a boy. She has seen cool guys lead… and he wasn’t doing that. So she did. And by then… she had already put him in a box. He was done. He failed in comparison to cooler guys she’d been “educated” by before him.
I get this logic about “making her work” or “showing he has standards” and “qualification game.” And I’m not into being “over game-y” and worrying/posturing when I feel like I’m being reactive… but I see value in making her qualify herself.
For me, I get around this, by leading. I lead. Then she is reacting to my moves… and I think that is part of what got Lovedrop in trouble here… he missed opportunities to lead.
Admittedly, I have never read Mystery Method. I will in the next year (I have it). I am curious how it’ll land for me, given I’ve been in game forever, have a ton of experience, but have never read that book.
And I’m into the idea of qualification… but i don’t want to beat it to death.
I think pushing qualification too hard will break the bubble and/or make you look like you’re running a technique (fake/incongruent). Whereas leading cuts through the “emotional distance” of your tactics, and gets you into the dance of desire with the girl. You leading her into “realness” (not tactics). Of giving her that experience.
Good discussion, man. I’m not with you 100%, but you present a great analysis here.
Cheers to Rivelino. Viva daygame.
i am surprised that we are seeing this case study so differently.
“He missed moments to touch her, so she supplied them.”
what moment did he miss? how did he prove himself to her as being a high value man?
lovedrop makes the same point two other times, about her testing the man to see if he is high value:
“Admittedly, I have never read Mystery Method.”
that’s interesting and also surprising. but you do agree that it’s the foundation of pickup and game, or you disagree?
>> that’s interesting and also surprising. but you do agree that it’s the foundation of pickup and game, or you disagree?
I don’t think there is anything new at the fundamental level in game in the last “10,000 years.” So I can’t give credit to Mystery, or anyone else, for doing anything more than “writing it down.”
With that said (and I hear someone else actually wrote MM), I hear that book is good. And more important to me, I know many guys I respect that respect that book… so I want to have that in common with my “tribe.”
I’d rather read Casanova… and maybe I will. But I’m going to read The Book of Pook next, I think. And maybe some Franco stuff. And Krausers CAD book. So much good stuff to read. I like to study. I’ll get to MM. I’m sure there are some good things for me to take away there.
The book of pook is great
The mystery method has good stuff on it but fails at the framing. Anything that tells you Game is a grind, or done through hoops of rejection is failing at the core level and missing the grander scheme of things.
>> “He missed moments to touch her, so she supplied them.”
>> what moment did he miss? how did he prove himself to her as being a high value man?
I wasn’t there, and we’re listening to his account of it… but… she touch him first. That’s all I need to know.
I’m not saying the points he was making are wrong. But that’s not how I would read the situation he presented.
== I like the idea that if a girl does something to you — especially sexually — it’s because you missed 10 opportunities to do it first.
So if she says “kiss me” or kisses you on her own accord… she was ready to kiss for some time and you missed it, so now she is having to lead.
That’s what I see in this situation. She has much more experience than him (or it seems that way). She loved his pickup, and expected a hot date. And then he just chatted. So she made it sexual. And he did some “copy-cat” stuff back to her… and she was over it.
It could be a million things… but that’s my read.
Maybe it was a chance to see if he was sexually needy, but that’s not what I see here. I see him being a bit boring vs her sexuality. And I’m guessing she had a good first impression that fizzled on the date.
Imagine if he did something very solid that made her pupils dilate early in the date. Then, she is at the “effect” of his game. He is leading. She is being surprised and lead by a bold man. This is a dreamy situation for most women.
If that ^ is happening… why would he have to do anything else to show his value??
“The mystery method has good stuff on it but fails at the framing. Anything that tells you Game is a grind, or done through hoops of rejection is failing at the core level and missing the grander scheme of things.”
yohami, the #1 thing that the mystery level says is that everything is based on VALUE. that is something you would agree with.
VALUE is the most fundamental currency of attraction.
and another core belief is that women will test to see how much value you really have.
another thing you would agree with.
Yep sure, but define value.
In his book, most of the framing is done as in doing a dance with a narcissist who will reject you the moment you show your interest.
That’s not “Game” but “a game”
“I don’t think there is anything new at the fundamental level in game in the last “10,000 years.” So I can’t give credit to Mystery, or anyone else, for doing anything more than “writing it down.””
oh yeah, that’s right. we’ve had similar conversations before, i remember you saying this.
there is nothing new under the sun, okay. but someone actually being able to identify and break down what’s happening, create a falsifiable system that actually works, that a person can learn, that a person can teach — that’s amazing.
yes, it’s the difference between an invention and a discovery. but it was an amazing discovery.
people have been getting sick forever, but for someone to “discover” germ theory, hey that’s pretty cool.
“I like the idea that if a girl does something to you — especially sexually — it’s because you missed 10 opportunities to do it first.”
so the fake IOI shit test, you don’t believe that that happens?
I’m sure it happens. And I bet it happens much less often than guys that like that theory think it happens. That becomes “reactive paranoia,” so I personally want to stay out of that game.
I want to lead. “Swing my dick.” Look to see if there’s a connection. I know shit tests are real, and I can pass them, but that’s mostly reactive… lead, lead, lead.
That IS value. Leading, taking girls are smooth, little adventures, that give you time to bond/escalate… IS value. That’s clean, bold game. I like it.
i see what you’re saying, and i agree, leading is the best overall mindset to have.
but, being “reactive” is good when you re-name as being calibrated.
so it’s good to be both. and yeah, that’s sort of a paradox, but so is life.
i think in the initial dating stages, a women is checking for a bunch of things in a man, but two HUGE things she is looking for, are:
1. how confident is he?
2. how needy and desperate is he? (aka is he faking the confidence)
that’s why we have both noticed, once we have one girl in the harem, it’s easier to get more. because we give off little microsignals of neediness without even knowing it. most men do, i believe.
and apart from just giving off signals that we can’t control, on top of that, i think there are a lot of TRAPS we dont’ see, and that’s exactly what makes us intermediate daygamers.
a beginner is afraid.
an intermediate knows how to lead, and knows how to handle shit tests.
an advanced daygamer i think is defined by his ability to calibrate and spot the traps.
hmm, i am liking this theory.
>> but, being “reactive” is good when you re-name as being calibrated.
>> so it’s good to be both. and yeah, that’s sort of a paradox, but so is life.
^ This is true.
I think as you get better the calibration is “effortless,” so unless you had a serious fuckup, you don’t even notice you’re doing it.
>> an advanced daygamer i think is defined by his ability to calibrate and spot the traps.
Way to reactive for me.
If you’re advanced, why is the girl constantly “setting traps” instead of being swept off her feet? “Girl is your mirror.”
All of that strikes me as “the war between the sexes.” Are we fighting here? Or making art together?
And I realize that different men could read the same situation in different ways… maybe it’s a fight and art at the same time??
But part of my inner game is that this is clean, bold and about “art” between these girls and I. That is a killer offer to be able to make to a woman… much better than “I am so good at avoiding your traps.”
I’m not here to “avoid traps.” I am here to show both of us a good experience. That’s clean.
>> YOHAMI: That’s what Im referring to when I say that you take the accelerator and let her have the brake, but then you drive in a way she never has to use the brake.
^ I am writing a post that quotes Yohami a lot right now… so I’m into his mindset. And ^ THIS quote is what good game (aka “advanced” game) sounds like to me.
No traps. No puzzles. All that is for “bottom guy” (or any guy she doesn’t like/respect).
If you’re running a beautiful seduction, you’re on the accelerator, and she has the brake… but why would she ever use it?
Traps is her putting up roadblocks… she’s testing because she thinks she sees a weakness (in you, or her attraction to you).
A good seduction… is your masculinity sweeping her off her feet. And she is beautiful, feminine “goo” under your control, and she loves it, and so does the seducer. That’s good game.
“If you’re advanced, why is the girl constantly “setting traps” instead of being swept off her feet? “Girl is your mirror.””
Now we’re talking :-)
The bottom guy gets all the shit so he thinks Game is about becoming super good at dealing with the shit. The whole Mystery game is about dealing with shit. But if you’re good with women you don’t get shit, you get free pussy.
Plus the willingness to put up with shit is anti-game. So in a way the whole Game is anti-game, if you don’t have the fundamentals covered.
And I’m not saying I’m there yet… not all the time… but I know what a good seduction feels like, and it’s not “gotcha!” on shit tests or anything like that.
With that said,I had a big shit test last night… I asked for a pic from Miss Tease, after giving her some good role-playing sex talk, and she denied me, saying I had enough pics and that “we can’t always get what I want.” I was surprised. That is her on the brake, and I could do better.
And right after that, she asked if we were going to see each other today. Literally back/back with a comment denying me a pic. In the spirit of Riv’s LoveDrop post, I didn’t pounce on the offer to see her… particularly because she was weird about sending me a pic (of her lips, not her ass… it was minor compliance).
So I said, “Would I be seeing the generous, fun, sexy girl? Or miss “can’t always get what you want?” She didn’t respond, I left it at that. To be fair, I think she went to sleep…
But this AM, I got “The first one… hehehe” and a nice topless shot. So it was a test, it seems (or maybe she was tired last night?). But my game (and her/my connection) isn’t that great, so I’m not surprised she is testing me. It’s not a strong relationship. It’s going to have more trouble/disconnect.
In this case, I think her/my connection is the issue. We are ONLY sex, and I don’t have any time to build trust/comfort with her… so it’s this shallow/tense sexual dance. I am okay with it, I like her, I’d like to see if we could get deeper, I’d like to fuck her again, but I know this isn’t ideal.
So in this case… I have my eye on her/my connection. That’s the thing to recognize. Not all the relationships have the same potential (she is no Miss Thick).
And I know I should prioritize girls where she/I can run a little deeper. It’s not a matter of “perfect lines.” I know I can make it worse with bad game, but there is a limit to how much better I can make girls that I don’t really click with… so I’ll play, but my focus should be on other girls. And it is.
Well I was going to write that the advanced guy will get a lot of shit – but likely after quite a few sexual encounters. At some point she’ll attempt a power grab, she has to decide if you’re the one she’ll try to keep or the one she’ll say goodbye to.
As opposed the one she’ll have sex with or not (what I call screening phase)
If she didn’t want to send a pic of her lips, likely she was in a social situation that didn’t allow for it. Maybe she was even with her bf or fuckbuddy.
This line was tussle:
“Would I be seeing the generous, fun, sexy girl? Or miss “can’t always get what you want?”
See what Im saying about questions? that’s sending the ball to her court, but not in a power move. You’re giving her the power to be a bitch, and with a conditional in that now she has to turn herself into a nicer person.
What would be an actual power move? a reply like:
“I’ll see you only if you give me everything that I want”
Which will make her come in her panties.
She may want to challenge that, then you reply
“Everything that I want”
Now compare this frame against the place where you were when you asked that question. Why ask? score the point.
In case you’re wondering, your actual good move was to not text anything after that. THAT silence and detachment signaled the power that otherwise you’re deflating with that sort of mini tussle. It’s the ‘let go’.
“We are ONLY sex, and I don’t have any time to build trust/comfort with her”
Funny right? you’re fucking her and your problem is that you don’t have time to build comfort, and there she is sending you topless pics.
The truth is that she’ll initiate the comfort / trust herself when she’s ready. Do enough power moves and she’ll write you love letters. She’ll also try to move in.
>> This line was tussle:
>> “Would I be seeing the generous, fun, sexy girl? Or miss “can’t always get what you want?”
>> See what Im saying about questions? that’s sending the ball to her court, but not in a power move.
>> What would be an actual power move? a reply like:
>> “I’ll see you only if you give me everything that I want”
>> Which will make her come in her panties.
>> She may want to challenge that, then you reply
>> “Everything that I want”
>> Now compare this frame against the place where you were when you asked that question. Why ask? score the point.
Part of me likes how I handled that situation.
And the rest of me knows you are correct. Maybe my response was +1 (and it worked, she sent me a naked pic first thing the next morning), but I could have +10 with a better response.
“Score the point.”
This is like The Firecracker when I said, “Tell me when you’re available,” and she said “never” and you coached me to say, “Never = Friday, my place, 7 PM,” and she immediately agreed.
I hear you, Yohami. I feel like I’m learning a new language, and I only understand every other word… but I’m starting to get it.
>> So I said, “Would I be seeing the generous, fun, sexy girl? Or miss “can’t always get what you want?” She didn’t respond, I left it at that. To be fair, I think she went to sleep…
^ Here’s is what I said about THIS WEEK’s particular “test.”
>> Basically, Nash, the trick you’re trying to pull by getting them to “surrender” and punish them emotionally doesnt work, and never will, because it’s not masculine. It’s not a turn on for them. I dont mean this in a pejorative way, it’s that there are masculine and feminine forms. Girls will react with horniness to the masculine frame and not to the feminine frame.
And THIS ^ is from a different girl (Firecracker, last winter) where Yohami is trying to tell me basically the same thing as he is on that thread about Firecracker.
“Basically, Nash, the trick you’re trying to pull by getting them to “surrender” and punish them emotionally doesnt work, and never will, because it’s not masculine. ”
More from that thread:
“But you’re not stating it, not taking it, not making it happen. So TAKE IT, MAKE IT HAPPEN, STATE IT, DO IT.”
Okay. No questions. State it. Do it.
Urrrrg… trying to absorb this. This is better than what I’m doing, and I know it.
If everything is under control, you are just not going fast enough.
Similarly, if the brake is never used, the accelarator has been underused.
i just got home. i went out with my natural alpha friend mateo and we picked up an 18yo chick at an outdoor terrace and her her join us (i approached her), and then we took her to a jazz bar and both made out with her. then went went outside and she got in a taxi and left. mateo has been with about 400-500 chicks, he is very good looking, strong, intelligent, etc., it was no big loss to him. he said she will be back. i was really hoping for a threesome with her, although i was nervous it would be my first time watching a dude in real life get his dick sucked by a chick. she was hot though, so i was up for it.
anyway, point of that story was, it was great to see a natural in action. he did exactly what yohami was saying. knowing when and how to lead. at no point did she have to put on the breaks. she teased and played her lolita role, but he didn’t get too excited. he was calm, relaxed, and took his time — even as she teased and brought up sexual subjects.
example: she said, as she was drinking her glass of wine, she said, alcohol “me pone” — in spanish, “it gets me”. and he very straight faced said, it gets you what? what do you mean? he didn’t get too sexually excited by her innuendo. in other words, he didn’t jump in her frame — HE DIDN’T JUMP IN HER TRAP.
she was testing how horny he was.
nash, the girl in the elevator was testing how horny you were.
you jumped the gun, went for the kiss way too soon, and she had to put on the break — and got turned off by your over-eagerness. aha, bottom man!
aka FAKE IOI TEST. see what i mean?
okay, maybe not “fake ioi”, but a doggy steak test, EXACTLY like lovedrop described. she **was** attracted to you, but threw out the steak to see how hungry you were, and you bit. TOO EAGER.
naturals instinctively know not to fall for these traps. us intermediates need to learn to spot them.
at the first terrace, after a two drinks, i said to mateo, let’s invite her to your apt! and i started seeding it, saying he had two cute dogs. but then he said to me, NOT YET. aka this is too soon to invite her to my apt.
in other words, i got TOO EXCITED. i was seeing her IOIs and was already thinking OH YEAH. he knew to take his time, nice and slow. not too eager.