DAYS OF GAME

895 Responses to A Close Call with a Married Woman

1. YOHAMI says:

   04/23/2018 at 8:14 am

   Congrats man. One pointer:

   “and then they have to make a choice. Stay or go? I like it that it way. ”

   That moment where you pass the power to her and she ‘has to make a choice’ is the tussle seed.

   I know I’ve hammered that point before.

   Ideally when you pick up the girl, there’s no choice for her.

   But how?

   The same way when you approach someone and ask for the time if they are carrying a watch. Or you enter a place and you look at someone and say ‘good morning’

   If I go somewhere and there’s a cute girl and I say “hi” she’ll smile and say hi back. Then if I make a funny remark or question she’ll smile again and engage in conversation. There’s no choice for her. She doesn’t have to stop and make a choice.

   That pause (that you introduce) means she has to evaluate you and rank you and coordinate things iun her mind and feelings and take the initiative to move her own body. There are a LOT of things going on here. Just by introducing that pause you’re screening the girls who will dance that specific dance.

   But there’s no need to give them the power like that.

   If you do eye contact that’s the ramp for saying hi.

   If you go without the eye contact and say ‘hi’ or ‘hey’ in a commanding enough voice and then you ‘engage in conversation’ with your eyes, they’ll stop. Then ‘you’re cute, who are you?’ or whatever other pickup line you like, and they’ll play. There’s no choice. If they are feeling the right thing, there’s only one thing they can do about it, which is to engage and want more.

   So I get this is something you like

   “and then they have to make a choice. Stay or go?”

   But it is the “here are my moves, you tell me when to stop”. It’s the same framing.

   In comparison – when you think something is funny and start telling a story, people often start laughing and smiling before you even get to the joke. Has that happened to you?

   The point is again she shouldn’t have a choice. You’re leading, she’ll follow.

   OF COURSE she can always decide not to. But that’s on her. That’s not the game you’ll offer her.

   You don’t offer them the choice to follow or leave.

   You offer the option to follow. (they can still leave if they choose to).

   You don’t offer her the choice to stay or stop or come close or go away. You offer them the option to come.

   Offer them the option to listen to you.

   Offer them the option to engage with you.

   And nothing else.

   No duality there.

   No passing of power.

   Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:40 pm

     As usual… I want to argue with you…

     >> That moment where you pass the power to her and she ‘has to make a choice’ is the tussle seed.

     I don’t buy that I am creating “tussle” here, but you’re right… I am making her “work” a bit.

     >> If I go somewhere and there’s a cute girl and I say “hi” she’ll smile and say hi back. Then if I make a funny remark or question she’ll smile again and engage in conversation. There’s no choice for her. She doesn’t have to stop and make a choice.

     You are assuming Top Guy frame (of course you are!), but I agree with most of what you’re saying.

     This is all good coaching… thank you.

     I think the “choice” I am giving her here is more like when I once said “you can go home or come back to my place” after that date. That was terrible game when I was saying stuff like that. Telegraphing a way out… AND making her decide. Bad game.

     This case is a different scenario (it’s the initial approach, not post-date pull attempt). But in both cases I am making her do a little bit of “work”… and that’s not ideal.

     You’re saying “there’s no choice for her,” and I’m translating that to “don’t make her work.”

     For cold approach… I want her to have a choice. Legally, but well beyond that. That’s largely why I do not use my body to block her via a front stop… I want her to have choice. The choice is essential.

     But as long as there is choice… I should work toward being the kind of man that takes all the work out of this for them.

     Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:41 pm

     >> If you go without the eye contact and say ‘hi’ or ‘hey’ in a commanding enough voice and then you ‘engage in conversation’ with your eyes, they’ll stop. Then ‘you’re cute, who are you?’ or whatever other pickup line you like, and they’ll play. There’s no choice. If they are feeling the right thing, there’s only one thing they can do about it, which is to engage and want more.

     Great game. I like it.

     Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:52 pm

     >> OF COURSE she can always decide not to. But that’s on her. That’s not the game you’ll offer her.
     >> You don’t offer them the choice to follow or leave.
     >> You offer the option to follow. (they can still leave if they choose to).

     This particular instance is about cold approach on a moving target.

     Above you say “with a commanding voice.” That is a good example of how to “give her no choice” while actually not being invasive. I get that. In many cases, I am sure the conviction of my voice helps stop her. Yes.

     Practically speaking… we can body-block her with an aggressive front stop. Pancake does this, and the girls are very turned on. It’s not subtle. They still squirm around him sometimes, but he stops hot girls like that… and this is how they originally taught the London Model. Sundance stops like this too, but more subtly.

     I’m not into that style, personally. That style has the most potential to get us in trouble with the general public, get us thrown out of the mall, etc. It’s too invasive for me, personally.

     So… there is BODY BLOCK her (front stop)… or WALK ALONG SIDE OF HER (that is the weakest game, in my opinion… looks terrible). I don’t like those.

     So I SIDE STOP, and PLANT MY FEET…

     This ^ is why she has to make a choice. I’m not asking for permission… it’s that I’m not chasing after her, and/or I haven’t body blocked her… so if she’s moving when I approach, and I stop… she has to make a choice to be in the set.

     And that choice is a GOOD THING… because she has co-signed the seduction. I don’t need permission, but this is her opting in.

     The whole thing is “high value” as I see it. Not a “trick” to show high value, but actual high value.

     Reply
   • Lucretius says:

     04/24/2018 at 6:44 am

     I can understand what you are saying about “not giving the girl the power to decide” as she could just chose to exit there because she doesnt want to take “responsibility” for moving the interaction forward.

     But if there is a verbal interaction ongoing and it is time to move forward (say new location) can the choice vs option be done with phrasing?

     As example:
     Verbal 1: blah blah blah, going to this bar for drinks. Want to come with me? (Girl has to make a choice and therefore decide yes/no)

     Verbal 2: blah blah blah, going to this bar for drinks. Come along… (Girl has an option to just go along)

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       04/24/2018 at 7:16 am

       The girl is always making a choice. A lot of the time she already made the choice before you even said anything. Most girls know already if they are going to fuck you – long before you even started ‘seducing and escalating’. The most common error and miscalibration is going too-slow, and adding obstacles and dealing with walls and things like they mattered.

       Which brings me to the point:

       Me: hey, let’s go to that starbucks and chat some more?

       And expecting that she’ll say YES, and enjoying that you know she’ll say yes, vs:

       Me: hey, let’s go to that starbucks and chat some more?

       And expecting that now she has to make a Yes / No choice, and enjoying that decisions

       —-

       Are VASTLY different scenarios.

       It’s the difference between fucking and not fucking.

       In the first scenario you’re leading and she’s following. You take the reigns and set the pace. The more you do that, the more you do that. The more you lead, the more she follows. The more she follows, the more her compliance increases. Me, personally, I don’t even think a girl would even say no. I offer the minimal thing she’d say yes to, which is how the hi ramps into the ‘how are you’ and it ramps into more flirting and ramps into going to locations and ramps into having sex and it can all happen in under an hour. She could say no at any point, but why would she?

       The second scenario, the focus is to make the girl do the choice, so there’s onus put there, she’s ‘on the spot’, which means the dance is progressing also using her proactive agency. This means half the time she will say no. This is a two parter. FIRST, girls instinct is to stay safe, so given the chance they will slow things down so they can absorb the most info so they can be completely sure of everything, or, given the chance they go from emotions to rational mind (heh) to settle things down, and then things usually die there, as they move forward to something that has more emotion charge and makes them think less. SECOND, top guys don’t interact in this way, so the ‘now you decide girl’ is a tell that she’s dealing with a bottom guy, so it’s an invitation for her to pull the brakes and do a shit test, set a wall, play hard to get etc.

       So it may look similar and small but it’s not. This is the difference between:

       Looking at her, moving towards her, grabbing her waist, offering your chin, going for the kiss

       To:

       Looking at her [ are you sure? ] moving towards her [ can you also move towards me too a little?] grabbing her waist [ you can exit at any moment you want ] offering your chin [ I don’t know if I should kiss you are you ready? ] going for the kiss [ hey I don’t expect this to land ]

       It’s the difference between fucking and not fucking.

       It’s likely what’s enabling Nash dates to keep pulling the resistance all the way down to the bed. There’s a metagame going on.

       That summed to the strangely “I am dangerous” metagame.

       Girls don’t want a ‘dangerous’ man. They feel SAFE with what you call a dangerous man. The CAD who fucks her well makes her feel sage. That’s not danger.
       ]
       The hypergamy / attraction to the strong man is aligned with her sense of security. She’s the safest she’s ever been right there when the strong man has his dick inside of her. That’s her heaven.

       But you don’t have to believe me: ask the women. Then watch them do and act.

       —————-

       Lead. Let them follow.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/24/2018 at 7:22 am

         What girls feel ‘dangerous’ is the creep, not the player. They are attracted to the player. So you can call yourself ‘dangerous’ but that’s creating a game on top of the current game.

         The current game is that she will tell you, early on, exactly how to fuck her, and that you have to pay attention and rub her on the right spot, while displaying your manly attributes, and not falling on the traps that she sets to disqualify bottom guy. That’s the actual game.

         Now if you add layers on top of that “dangerous you and me” that’s an invitation for her to drop her current game. So things there will work when she actually doesn’t care about her own game, or when her needs align perfectly with what you’re playing there. So, roughly, 1 in 200 girls?

         As opposed to 100 in 100 girls that would respond to the normal top guy / high status man > girl interaction.

         Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         04/24/2018 at 4:59 pm

         If I understand this correctly, then we should be doing the following:

         On meeting the girl and saying hi, pause to watch her reaction, then say something like ‘how are you?’ or brief comment on clothes / accessories / etc. If she responds well (ie. smile, giggle or something similar), then we must assume she is DTF and from continue the interaction knowing that she is likely to comply with every ramp (verbals almost irrelevant).

         At this point it is no longer about doubt on our (guy) side on how the girls would perceive us but just for us to lead the interaction bit by bit (eg. brief talk, move to location, brief talk, kiss, move to another location, etc) until it leads to sex.

         The girl could always ‘chose to stop/exit’ at any point if she senses bottom guy but will just keep going along (follow) if there is continued top guy mentality (ie. self assurance) because of the frame of reference (ie. Guy ‘knows’ she is already DTF so progress onwards towards sex). This would be irrespective of the girl status (married, w/boyfriend or otherwise).

         In summary, the initial frame of reference (top guy) is everything going forward after hi. Do i got it right?

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/24/2018 at 5:33 pm

           Hah man, nope. Got some thing right. Let’s try this:

           ————–

           She’s always DTF. That’s not a question. The question is what type of man she’s DTF for, and if you’re that type of man. That’s a question for her, but also for you. So you ask yourself: is this the kind of girl I want to fuck? because she’ll require a certain type of man for her to be a YES girl. She will offer a series of riddles and instructions which is how to fuck her. Are YOU compatible with that? and is she compatible with you? So she’s DTF. Will you go for it? is it worth your time?

           So:

           SHE IS ALWAYS DTF

           And

           SHE IS ALWAYS READY TO FUCK MR TOP GUY

           That’s never a question. She’s DTF before you even talk to her. When you say hi, all you have to convey is you’re mr Top Guy. Then there are more moving parts, and specifics. The framing is

           1) Are you mr top guy?
           2) Is she compatible with your needs?
           3) Are you the type of top guy that she’ll bang?
           4) Will you put the required amount of work to dance the dance and arouse her till you fuck her? is it worth your time?

           ——————–

           Here’s how the dance goes

           1) You call to action, initiate action, ping. The first ‘hi’ and opener falls in this category.

           2) She reacts, she does her part. She’ll respond to what you just did with a level of interest and a level of rejection, or “a door” and “a wall”

           3) You focus on the part of her that is a “door”, or the part of her that is receptive, and double down there.

           Repeat 1)

           4) Chill back and relax, tell stories, DHV, “swing your dick”, display your manly attributes. This is different than 1 in that you’re not doing a move or call to action, just vibing, asking questions, getting her to qualify, teasing her, making her laugh, doing kino, etc. Being. To every little thing you do, she will immediately do

           2) React.

           Girls at the beginning show you exactly how to bang them, they volunteer all the information that you need right away. It’s a reflex. You ping them sexually, and they tell you how. They will tell you the things that matter the most. They will react strongly to some themes and be cold towards themes. There’s no room for confusion: just pay attention and listen. From there on, you repeat the 1) command, take action, escalate, lead. Then 2) watch her react and 3) triple down on what works and don’t repeat the stuff that doesn’t work.

           Then there are other things like ‘ ramps’

           A ramp: before making a big jump ahead, tease it.

           Every call to action or escalation works better if you tease it before hand. Teasing makes her ‘want it’, then when you deliver it it has extra impact. This is no different than the basics of storytelling, creating anticipation, telling a joke, etc. For girls more than half of arousal is the anticipation. So you ‘ramp’ to create anticipation, then deliver. What’s a ramp? say you are going to say hi, you initiate eye contact first. Say you’re going to grab her ass, you caress the back of her back first. Say you’re going to kiss her, you bring her close and smell her neck first. Etc.

           Then

           Compliments / negs or rewards / punishments.

           Or, you treat her well when she’s in good behavior, and neg her / put her down when she’s in bad behavior. You set walls to any transgression, and give her rewards for playing nice. Give her attention when she’s compliant, and retract your attention when she’s not.

           Then

           Commands

           All your lines where you tell her what to do are free of obstacles, free of begging, free of whatever bad shit you carry along from scarcity – the ‘frame is clean’, so all your escalation is done assuming success instead of assuming roadblocks (which is what I was talking about here)

           ————-

           And you do all of the above like she doesn’t matter at all and she has no effect on your life other than your own pleasure and entertainment.

           Then you can bang them all.

           Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/24/2018 at 6:43 pm

           Now a proper reply

           “On meeting the girl and saying hi, pause to watch her reaction”

           No, don’t ‘pause’. My comment above was precisely against this pause.

           Interact with her to make her react. Then use her reaction on your next iteration. That’s the dance.

           “then say something like ‘how are you?’”

           Ask “WHO” are you. This is about qualifying her, not doing asexual rapport.

           “or brief comment on clothes / accessories / etc.”

           Talking about her clothing is shit game unless you’re negging. If you’re negging on your opening you better have a reason as to why: did you already identify her as someone who’ll get aroused by negs? if not, compliments work better, but not addressed to her clothing and accessories (fuck wherever you got this angle from), but to HER

           – Hey I like your shoes, oh look at that accessory blah blah

           Means you’re completely gay

           – You look good

           Is ok game.

           – Hey cutie

           That’s better game

           – You’re cute, who are you

           Is good game – note how you validate her briefly but then break rapport, aka not clinging to it, and giving her something to work for (which is what she WANTS)

           “If she responds well (ie. smile, giggle or something similar), then we must assume she is DTF”

           Yes but she’s always DTF. The question is – are you arousing her? are you pinging that hunger.

           “and from continue the interaction knowing that she is likely to comply with every ramp”

           Yes. But the ramps are not the thing – the thing’s she’ll comply with are your calls to action (lets do this, lets move there, give me your phone, let’s hang out, cmere kiss me, take your clothes off). The RAMP is how you make the above smooth and how you screen things and make ready she’s receptive before escalating.

           “verbals almost irrelevant).”

           Verbals are of the most importance.

           “At this point it is no longer about doubt on our (guy) side on how the girls would perceive us”

           The ‘doubt’ should play no part in your interactions here, or ever, with anyone.

           “but just for us to lead the interaction bit by bit (eg. brief talk, move to location, brief talk, kiss, move to another location, etc) ”

           Yes.

           “until it leads to sex.”

           ‘it’ doesn’t lead to sex. YOU lead it towards sex.

           “The girl could always ‘chose to stop/exit’ at any point if she senses bottom guy but will just keep going along (follow) if there is continued top guy mentality”

           Yes. Not just mentality but behavior. And your behavior is just the emanation from your persona. Or, you behave like you are. Who are you, and how do you behave?

           Are you the man in power living in abundance on the top of his own world? do you have more value than she does? do you have a party going on and you’re considering inviting her, or are you trying to crash her party and begging to get in? what’s your script? are you a millionaire with a bunch of cash on your pocket window shopping? or are you a salesman doing cold calls and will take any costumer that will have you? what’s your script? what’s your behavior like?

           “(ie. self assurance) because of the frame of reference (ie. Guy ‘knows’ she is already DTF so progress onwards towards sex). This would be irrespective of the girl status (married, w/boyfriend or otherwise).”

           Yes.

           “In summary, the initial frame of reference (top guy) is everything going forward after hi. Do i got it right?”

           Sorta!

           I hope that helped.

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             04/24/2018 at 9:44 pm

             Let me try again to summarize if I got this right (or at least better)

             For the opener, it needs to be something that is specifically on her as a girl and not some “3rd thing”.

             Example to avoid:
             – Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?
             – It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?
             – The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous
             – Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet

             Example that invoke her:
             – Your cute, who are you?
             – I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?
             – I like your style (of dress), tell me more about you
             – You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking? (said with a “knowing” smirk)

             Her response on the above would lead to something with which to continue the discussion.

             Example:
             – I am blah blah, and who are you? (next loop runs on who guy is before moving discussion back to girl using a comment or statement to trigger some possible discussion thread)
             – I like to dress like this, it is my style (next loop would be to comment on the impression of her style and what type of girl the guy thinks she is to find another thread)
             – Those are private thoughts *wink* (next loop is to tease about either her wink or her that she was having such thoughts and was caught)

             An example of a neg opener would be for dressed up girl:
             Guy: That is a lovely scarf as it stands out (ramp)
             Girl: Thank you, I like it
             Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas (assuming wearing plain black clothes – neg forcing her to validate)

             Is the above closer to what it should be?

             On “arousal”, I think is clear for everyone that anticipation would build suspense and therefore arouse the girl in what the guy is going todo next. Part that is not clear (at least to me) is on “finding the spots for arousal and rubbing them”. An example or two here of a “arousal spot” and “how to rub it” would be helpful to solidify the idea.

             On the “door vs wall”, this is clear. Door is the positive part I want to focus on to move the conversation forward whereas the wall or obstacle is something I leave as it (unless unavoidable as is blocking discussion going forward).

             fyi, still making my way through Nash other posts and replies – you may have mentioned something there on the above.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               04/25/2018 at 6:37 am

               “– Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?
               – It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?
               – The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous
               – Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet”

               You can perfectly use these in situations where you’re next to each other in a group. Judgement remarks work better than passing comments, but better if the judgement is going to flip her either way, either way meaning, she’ll get aroused / laugh / you’re showing dominance / you’ll piss her off. Yeah pissing her off is valid. And the more this can be then turned into her, and you and her, the better

               The problem with your lines above is that they can be answered with Yes / No. They should be stories instead. Things that produce an emotional reaction, and that emotion will ramp into the conversation after it

               ———————-

               “– Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?

               To:

               – This weather is the worse piece of shit

               Is good.

               – Who do you think you are by wearing those shorts, don’t you see we’re freezing?

               If you want to neg

               – It’s so fucking hot, come with me let’s jump in that pond over there

               Or

               – Oh man we can’t keep doing this, everybody get naked!

               To a group

               Can you already hear her ‘hahaha’?

               ———————-

               “– It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?”

               To

               – What the fuck is going on here?

               – Who’s the monkey playing this music?

               – This song is chasing me around!

               – Who’s hammering around? HEY people chill out! (if there’s a construction)

               ————————-

               “– The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous”

               This is the shittiest of the lines but can still turned around, if she’s into art

               – This is better than anything you can see in a museum

               – My little cousin painted that one (joke)

               ————————–

               “– Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet””

               That’s ok if you follow it up

               – Yeah they should have a sign or something. Are you here for XXX?

               – Im [Name] who are you?

               ———————————————————————

               “– Your cute, who are you?”

               That’s fine because it’s setting the frame. You find her physically attractive, the frame is sexual, and you’re in a position of power. Eventually, coming from the previous lines, you’d land here. Even if it’s not stated, this is the frame

               “– I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?”

               This is shit game. Why? because “I was walking around and..” is like you’re trying to justify why you’re talking to her. You don’t need a justification to talk to her.

               “– I like your style (of dress), tell me more about you”

               This is shit game unless she’s wearing a dress that says “WHORE” then you can say “nice dress” and wink. Or one of these FCUK tshirts. I’ve seen this bs about commenting on a girl’s style before somewhere. It’s shit game, but don’t believe me, put it to practice.

               Open 5 girls telling them “I like your style / dress, tell me more about you”, then open 5 other girls telling them “you’re cute, who are you”

               Fuckboy tim inserts a ‘fuck’ and says “who the fuck are you”. He’s in NY so that probably fits the city.

               “– You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking? (said with a “knowing” smirk)”

               This is uber shit game. It has all the wrong things in it.

               Why? because you’re not going for her pussy.

               But you are, right?

               You’re coming at her because you want her pussy. But you’re not going for it. Not going for her arousal. Not showing your intent. Why? because something is blocking you

               That ‘block’ is on you, not her. You decided to pay attention to her face and care / notice her expression and tried to figure out what she’s thinking and came here to talk about these non threatening things all while – you have an erection on your pants, so you may just go and say ‘hey Im a creep’

               The exception of course is when that specific line fits that specific girl. 1 in a million? but that’s not Game.

               You can safely delete that line / approach from your toolbox.

               —————————————————–

               “Guy: That is a lovely scarf as it stands out (ramp)
               Girl: Thank you, I like it
               Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas (assuming wearing plain black clothes – neg forcing her to validate)”

               No, that’s you being homosexual

               How much do you really want to talk about scarfs?

               Rank it 1 to 10

               Whatever number, that’s your rank on the manliness / attractive scale.

               Example, if your level of interests on scarfs is 2, then you’re 2/10 a man.

               Compare it to “you are cute, who are you?”

               Is that true? maybe the truer form would be “you look fucking great, I would bang you right here right now” which is also a valid opener depending on the girl and social setup. But let’s say ‘you’re cute who are you’ is true to your real intent as a 8/10. Then when you say it you’re a 8/10 man.

               LEAD WITH YOUR INTENT

               Stop giving a fuck about scarfs

               Unless you’re doing so to neg her or flirt her.

               How do you know?

               Go for her ‘hahaha’

               That hahaha is her arousal, or one of it’s shapes.

               —————————–

               AROUSAL

               When the girls wants more.

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/25/2018 at 8:30 am

               “Part that is not clear (at least to me) is on “finding the spots for arousal and rubbing them”. ”

               When you’re talking to her, some things will elicit a stronger reaction in her than others.

               The ‘arousal’ spots is what elicits that reaction. So you do that more.

               But also this can means she ‘chills and smiles’. She gives you puppy eyes. She gets comfy. She’s stimulated. That’s the arousal.

               When you’re interacting with the girl all you’re doing is / should be scanning for the things that will arouse her.

               This is not some deep secret: she’ll be exposing all these on your face all the time. She will tell you, straight away, what she likes and how to fuck her.

               This would require a longer form response but for now, imagine that all the lines you say have the [to have sex] appended, and all her responses also have [to fuck me] appended

               Then read and see where this takes you.

               ————————-

               If you read them like that you can understand which lines are conductive and which arent

               – Hi, nice weather [to have sex] we are having isnt it?

               – It is a bit noisy [to have sex] in here, dont you think?

               – The graffiti looks modern [to have sex] , I wonder if it is famous (see why this is shit?)

               – Dont stand too close to the wall [to have sex], the paint is wet

               —————————-

               – Your cute [to have sex], who are you?

               – I was walking and you caught my eye [to have sex], who are you?

               – I like your style (of dress) [to have sex], tell me more about you (see why talking about her dress to have sex starts being weird?)

               – You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking [to have sex]? (see how this is weird?)

               ——————————

               Now look how this is shi

               Guy: That is a lovely scarf [to have sex] as it stands out
               Girl: Thank you, I like it [to fuck me]
               Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas [to have sex]

               It’s way too convoluted, which is why it’s ‘shit game’

2. Flat Lander says:

   04/23/2018 at 1:32 pm

   “I took her by the wrist and pulled her toward my room …”

   This seems to break the bubble of plausible deniability. The bedroom move triggers ASD, as it breaks the “one thing leading to another” flow.

   Walking her around your place and then pouncing on her to kiss and lift her is you being the dangerous monster she has to run from.

   Seeing how smooth the kino at the restaurant is going, why not chill with her on the couch in your living room and work on her arousal there?

   Compare:
   “He pursued me around the house, then pulled me to his bedroom” vs “We were chilling on the couch watching a movie and…”

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/23/2018 at 3:33 pm

     She went to his apartment, they kissed, she’s married – plausible deniability has been long gone here. It’s gone since she texted him back really.

     Reply
   • Flat Lander says:

     04/23/2018 at 7:50 pm

     I knew there was a slow tea and bench scene in your conquests:

     “I offered desert (cheesecake trap was set) and cats. She said, a bit reluctantly, “I like talking with you…,” dripping with emotion. I said “I have some non-caffeine tea” and she was a full yes and we left.

     It was the coldest night of the year. My heat was on, but we were cold from the short trip from the car to my door. I sat her on the table, wrapped a blanket around her, and made us tea. We sat next to each other, feet on the bench seat, cats swirling around us, holding warm cups of tea, and I kissed her…

     She almost collapsed. She was this unbelievably sexy version of helpless… something like that. She was moaning. Two more kisses and I said, “come on.”

     I wrapped my arms around her, kept telling her “you’re alright,” as we slowly walked down the long hallway to my bedroom. I almost carried her. It was like she might faint. ”

     From: http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/sex-with-the-siren/

     Reply
     • Nash says:

       04/23/2018 at 9:38 pm

       >> I knew there was a slow tea and bench scene in your conquests:

       Yeah. That… was a remarkable night with one of the most special girls I have ever been with. You make me miss her as I reread that stuff.

       I don’t really bother with “cheesecake” anymore. It’s “listen to music” or “meet my cats” or “cup of tea.” She is either into it or she is not.

       Other times I’m even more direct… “come back to my place and make out with me.” I think that is pretty damn good as well… depends on the vibe.

       …

       There are a lot of “moves”/mindsets in this part of the seduction that are “high level.” I think I am into this territory often enough that THIS is where I should put some effort to get better.

       Mostly, I think I have to learn these bits via my own experience. No ebook will really make a difference here.

       The exception is Yohami… Yohami is a guy that get this at the “upper threshold” level. So the things he is coaching me on… these are areas I need to focus.

       Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 9:31 pm

     >> the “one thing leading to another” flow.

     I don’t run this kind of game… I think I may very well have a lot to learn here.

     I think my seduction skills in terms of once she is back at my place… I need work there. I assume I am way better than most men… but if I want to go to the upper thresholds, I have a lot of work to do here.

     But I don’t follow traditional patterns… and yet, I really don’t think my numbers are worse than other guys in this community.

     Maybe they are??

     >> why not chill with her on the couch in your living room and work on her arousal there?

     It is a curious thing about my game that I never sit girls down in my house. We always hang out in the kitchen, usually standing. I am convinced it is much easier to kiss a girl when she is standing up (or laying down), vs sitting.

     And I think it’s easier to escalate when I talking… not sitting on the couch pretending to watch a movie.

     That “movie move” is way beyond plausible deniabilty from my POV. It’s too cliche and “high school” for me. I never do it. I make a move. And then calibrate from there. If it’s on… both the guy and girl want to get to it… why turn toward a movie when it’s on??

     I know I am unusual in this way.

     >> pouncing on her to kiss and lift her is you being the dangerous monster

     Yeah. It’s rad, huh! : ]

     >> “We were chilling on the couch watching a movie and…”

     In some very rare circumstances, I have done this… but this appealed to me more when I was AFC.

     Now that I know how to escalate… she knows what’s up… I don’t want to be “jarring”… but trying to put on a movie… would be going backwards for me.

     I don’t know… I am thinking about all this.

     Reply
     • Flat Lander says:

       04/23/2018 at 10:34 pm

       Kino at the restaurant is happy, relaxed foreplay while sitting (soft dominance as per Krauser). Why the switch to the dangerous monster persona at your place (hard dominance)?

       Couch and tea, movie, photo album, your stickers, silly YT videos are the ramp.

       Some girls are DTF (like Miss Velvet Mouth http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/sex-velvet-mouth/) and will make a beeline for the bedroom. Others may need a gentler ramp.

       Reply
3. The Red Quest says:

   04/24/2018 at 3:11 pm

   I like married or taken chicks. Don’t know what that says about me but it’s true.

   I also laugh at the guys who are like, “All chicks cheat all the time.” Yeah buddy, try to get them to cheat with *you*, then.

   It’s true of course that a lot of chicks will cheat, but it has to be a right guy, right moment thing. Part of game is being prepared to be that guy.

   Reply
4. Lucretius says:

   04/25/2018 at 4:29 pm

   [[Continuing here as cannot post more direct replies]]

   I am a bit surprised as I thought I was more in line with what you were explaining earlier but I seem to have had it a bit backwards.

   On saying ‘fuck’ this is only going to be socially workable on a friday / saturday night while dressed in jeans and not during the day to / from office in a suit. I think the point would be to add “strong emphasis” therefore the word ‘fuck’ is used.

   Your comment on the initial openers make more sense if I am constantly appending [to have sex] with it.
   If I keep this mentally as I am speaking, then my conversation would be going in a specific direction because I mentally have to make it congruent with [to have sex].

   In this case, I can clearly see why talking about scarf doesnt make sense.

   On the line “– I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?”, I wasnt thinking of the justification but as a way to lead to ‘who are you’ – so is good point that you mention this. It will adjust my perspective.

   On the scarf thing, it was to neg (I did mention it there). Scarf could of been replaced by any other item.

   Be good to see your long form response when you have a moment. I obviously have a lot of mental re-arranging todo to drive interactions forwards. There certainly appears to be a perspective shift that I need to make to see the under-current discussion within the ‘overt’ discussion. It sounds like everything said has to be around moving to having sex or probing how to get to having sex by moving through topics and taking doors while avoiding walls.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/25/2018 at 6:42 pm

     Yes. “are you a good fuck / are you worth my time / are you crazy / are you worth having sex with you” should be on the back of your mind at all points. When you say “hi” it should be communicating “Hi, let’s fuck”.

     At the same time, what the girl has on her mind at all times is “is he top or bottom guy?”, and the presence of top guy arouses her, stimulates her and excites her, makes her ‘easy’; while the presence of bottom guy makes her scared, repulsed, closed, difficult. So she’ll throw things at you, but clues or bait for top guy to take her, and walls or obstacles or bait for screening out bottom guy. The whole courtship is a shit test. Just that the top guy never sees the ‘shit’ part, because all the shit is for the bottom guy.

     So she’s asking on the back of her mind if you’re top guy, and you’re asking on the back of yours if she’s worth a fuck. The context of it all is [to have sex].

     This is how initiating a conversation about scarfs with the intention to neg her goes nowhere. Or why beta boring rapport or interview mode goes nowhere. Or why she won’t take the initiative when you fail to lead. You’re being screened – so is she. If you give her free validation it means you’re not screening which means you’re not top guy which means she’ll make that interaction more difficult.
     Etc.

     There’s a specific behavior from top guy > down to the girl when she says YES to everything.

     It varies from girl to girl but the path is always there. Your job is to channel that.

     Reply
5. Lucretius says:

   04/25/2018 at 8:16 pm

   “There’s a specific behavior from top guy > down to the girl when she says YES to everything.”

   Can you expand more on this? A brief (hypothetical) example always helps.

   (fyi, I find your comments very useful and want to say thank you for taking the time to post as you are doing)

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/25/2018 at 8:34 pm

     No problem – check the ‘kissing a virgin mormon girl’ thread from a few weeks ago with a few hundred comments, there’s a lot of back and forth on this subject there and some case examples

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       04/27/2018 at 8:41 pm

       Still going through the ‘mormon girl’ thread (I am rereading from the top).
       It is the same thread that brought me to the blog.

       The thread is around text game which has improved substantially from my side in following the principles that you have mentioned but in text game the ‘moves’ are not instant as each side can think about it for a few seconds to hours before replying.

       A thought that is always floating in my mind is the ‘in person’ interaction in that I could imagine that the mechanics would have to be the same as via text but I feel (perhaps wrongly?) that the verbal flow of the interaction would be different.

       Keeping to initial stop (the initial thread of Nash post), my question is around two points:
       Q1. What would be common ‘beta/bottom guy bait’ that girls put out there in person during a set (initial stop). Do you have an examples from your experience?

       On a personal example, I was waiting for metro and saw a girl that I started a chat with. The opener was terrible [was before reading your points] (opener = why you dressed all in black?) but she kept talking and then she had a full arm tattoo sleeve which when I asked her about it she really responded (face lit up) like she was ‘proud’ / wanted to show it off. There was a bit more blah blah and then the next bit of conversation was about a comment her professor made that she would have difficulty in finding a job because of tattoo. She paused for a moment and then said ‘or maybe I just wont find a job and be unemployed’. Here I could identify that this last statement of hers was ‘beta / bottom guy’ bait as a ‘bottom guy’ would try to build rapport and say something like ‘dont worry, I am sure you’ll find a job no problem’. My response was ‘That is a terrible way to look at it but if that is your viewpoint’. She reacted on this in a bit of surprise which gave me a sense that I must of ‘passed’.

       If I rephrase my question, is ‘beta / bottom guy’ bait any statement / question from a girl that moves the interaction away from sex and towards the girls problems / woes where the bait is for the bottom guy to build rapport (as per above) or onto some topic about the guy (eg. clothes, job) where the ‘bottom guy’ would play up that area (ie. validate to her)?

       Q2. If during a verbal interaction with a girl (before escalation), the conversation stalls, how does one pick it up again? An example may be where the conversation is moving forward but then the guy misses the topic cue to continue and goes off in another direction, then girl stops talking. Would the guy need to just talk on a random situational topic and see if it hits something (ie. she reacts positively – smile, giggles, eyes, legs crossed, etc) or try to continue a previous topic where she reacted to before from the verbal cue she gave.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:03 pm

         Hey man. When she ‘lit’s up’ that’s the door, the arousal, etc. You’ve just found a sweet spot.

         The focus for you should be:

         How do you rub that spot more in a way that will arouse her, how do you turn this into sex? this is why:

         ‘That is a terrible way to look at it but if that is your viewpoint’.

         Is shit game.

         But why is it shit game?

         Because that statement is a ‘wall’ that you introduced, right where she’s glowing you and telling you she wants to be fucked.

         And you judge / reject her instead of progressing.

         So what would be escalation? a reward.

         ————————-

         “She paused for a moment and then said ‘or maybe I just wont find a job and be unemployed’.”

         Me: that’s ok, who needs a job? ;-)

         Me: We can always live under the bridge and live on food stamps

         Me: I’ll play the bongo and you pass on the hat. And our seven kids will be distracting people and stealing their wallets. We’ll be fine.

         ————————-

         That above is me roleplaying into her scenario. See how I made it about “her and me”. The “who needs a job” is obviously a joke, so she giggles some. When she giggles I take that and say “WE” so I escalate. When she tunes to that I increase the absurdity

         Then I’d bring it down

         ————————–

         Me: actually – there are many jobs you can do as tattooed as much as you want. Anyone who doesn’t hire you for having a tattoo is an idiot.

         Me: Well I wouldn’t hire you. But that’s because Im a jerk

         ————————–

         In the above I “bring it down to earth again” and give her some valid rapport and validation. But then I break that immediately by saying I wouldn’t hire her, and again into roleplay

         ————————-

         Me: Im sure you can do great things. How good are you making breakfast?

         Me: Do you know how to make your man happy.

         Me: Oh yeah.

         ————————-

         In a normal scenario I’d be making out with her already.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           04/27/2018 at 9:30 pm

           ”
           Me: that’s ok, who needs a job? ;-)

           Me: We can always live under the bridge and live on food stamps

           Me: I’ll play the bongo and you pass on the hat. And our seven kids will be distracting people and stealing their wallets. We’ll be fine.
           ”

           When reading the above, I thought these were three separate possible responses but you actually mean saying all of them in sequence.

           The first seemed like straight rapport (which I would move away from on instinct). The second connected her and me but still looks strange (the thought of food stamps). The third sounds really good and I can see myself saying this to the girl without hesitation. But the ‘magic’ comes in when all three area said in together. Replaying the interaction in my mind, if I were to use the above three, it is like I would be teasing her + connecting her & me + being playfully imaginative.

           I could see how the above would create an emotional impact while connecting her to me. Before bringing everything back to earth and the original tone / vibe of the discussion before the rollercoaster.

           If I try to put your response to Q1, the beta / bottom guy bait can be practically turned around to show top guy just by being almost absurdly playful while connecting her and me. Am I on the right track?

           The two links have been added to my reading list. Somewhat a bit of a shit feeling that my instinct appear to be all wrong on this even though it kinda felt I was on the right path.

           Got a lot of mental re-arranging todo…

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             04/27/2018 at 9:50 pm

             It’s ok man, we all go through a lot of re-arranging. Then the pieces fall into place.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               04/28/2018 at 7:28 am

               As I am now falling down the rabbit hole with my mental schemas now being taken apart, a related topic would be kino (touching).

               It happens often that I am verbally interacting with a girl and she would take a step closer (if we are standing) and she gently touches my arm or shoulder for 1-2seconds (not rubbing but just placing it there) before removing it. This is all done without bringing attention to what she is doing (ie. eye contact doesnt change / voice doesnt change / discussion doesnt change).

               My current reaction is no reaction (ie. I dont flintch or move or look at her touching or mention any touching) but given my track records over the past few comments, it is best to check this if there is a more appropriate response.
               I would know that if I flintch or draw attention to it, it would be bad (signalling that I am not use to it), if I shake it off it would communicate (not interested). My current rationale to being non-reactive is to communicate that this happens from girls do this all the time. My mind says that it could be a test from the girl to see how I react but again from reading your points, I think I am missing something on how to move it forward. Obviously, her touching me is a sign she likes me.

               To be clear, the context for the above is PUBLIC meaning that I am at a drinks events at a bar (purpose of event = meet people) in a group with the girl (eg 3-4 people) with many people around us periodically entering the group and leaving the group (mainly guys but also girls). Here I would be meeting the girl for the first time.

               The above is to contrast with PRIVATE which would include being alone in apartment (If she did this, I escalate in response) or if we are at a bar / restaurant where people are not joining / leaving the group (I would subtly escalate without drawing attention – hand on waist / leg / back where others cannot see).

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/28/2018 at 7:48 am

               That means she’s comfortable, touching is normal behavior. It also means she’s comfortable enough to want to touch you. It also means she wants to be touched. So do more kino – take it as a green light.

               Also you should be doing the same, touch her as you speak. Also touch her friends, and your friends, and the people around you, etc. Touching is fine. There was this guy called Lance Mason pickup 101 with a lot of good advice on how to do social kino, maybe there are videos around still

           • YOHAMI says:

             04/27/2018 at 9:56 pm

             This guy is on point most of the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNTT8po6Kg

             Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:03 pm

         Theck the comments here

         http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/paul-janka-escalation-lmr-free-ebook-download/

         Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:04 pm

         And

         http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/fast-seduction-vs-date-model/

         Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:24 pm

         Re: traps for bottom guy.

         The TRAP for bottom guy is the rejection.

         When the girl sets a wall, a difficulty, plays hard to get, assumes an authority position and judges down etc.

         The bottom frame guy immediately cedes power, pursues more, validates to her, invests more, improves the offer.

         She moves away, bottom guy chases her.

         She shows little interest, bottom guy shows more interest.

         The trap for bottom guy is that she’ll offer LESS at some points. And if you offer MORE, then you’re bottom guy.

         That’s pretty much the trap.

         Then there are other things that bottom frame makes you do that are not traps the girl sets for you, but stupid things you do just because

         1) You don’t escalate on her arousal. She gives you cues, IOIs, openings, she’s ready and getting there, but you don’t act on time, you don’t take her, you miss the window

         And

         2) You push ahead blindly moving ahead of her actual state of arousal. Try to kiss her before she’s ready, try to fuck her before she’s ready etc. This is basically the result of 1), because you failed to arouse her so when you finally get your internal courage to move ahead, you’re doing it alone instead of taking her there with you

         And

         3) Frame clash. AKA you have your way of getting things done and it collides with hers so you sabbotage the progression.

         —————-

         If you note above – all the things circle around being able to understand what is an opening, what is a wall, and what to do each time.

         Bottom frame is ‘scarcity and struggle’ so it makes you go for the walls, miss or being blind to the opportunities, and move ahead of the pace, or not move at all, so you keep producing walls and missing on openings before the girl quickly decides her time is better spent elsewhere.

         And – the other thing bottom guy does is ‘overinvest’ or try to make a super deal where the girl wins with bonus and whistles, which for the girl means your value is so lo you have to fill the gap with extra stuff and accommodations, so she’s not longer attracted to you.

         And for all the above sometimes the girl will offer bait so see how you perform.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           04/29/2018 at 11:27 am

           Been reading quite a bit on the other comments from the links your provided. If I am understanding this correctly, there would actually be three components that may appear when interacting with a girl: Wall, door and obstacle.

           I cannot find a specific mention from yourself on an element defined as ‘obstacle’ but I do see it when you are discussing a particular point (ie. girl will throw something at you just to see what you do).

           As case example after meeting girl and moving to new venue (3 weeks back), I was at drinks with group of people (expat drinks) and there was a group of people (other 2 guys + 3 girls). I could tell that I was ahead of the other guys and that a specific girl was interacting with me differently than other guys (ie. showing interest). As the drinks where winding down, I was able to move closer to her (stand next to her) and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. The discussion was like this.

           Me : Drinks here is dying down. Lets you and me get a drink somewhere else?
           Her: Where?

           Me : Uhhh, dont know any places around here and only know in [certain area] (she know this area is in area where I live)
           Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right? *pause*

           Me : I walked but it is not that long a walk, around 20min
           Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me

           Me : Do you have a cargo space on the bike? You can drive and me on the back (cargo area)
           Her: I do have cargo space in front and back but it has a box for carrying things … but I also have a boyfriend so …

           Me : Errr … that wouldnt work if you have a boyfriend
           Her: But this girl over there looks like she needs saving? (she pointing to other girl at other end of the table where guy is talking her ear off. I had spoken with that girl earlier)

           Me : Her issues are not my problem
           Her: hahahahahaha

           I leave drinks event at this point.

           Following the points that have been discussed, I can pick out where I went wrong in most of the parts above:
           1. When proposing drinks, I should of said “lets go to [certain area]” as leading and sure in my suggestion instead of giving it as an “i dont know here but there is ok” type of option
           2. On the putting me as cargo and her driving, this was silly. I should of proposed the opposite
           3. On her bike having box front and back preventing ‘people’ from getting on is what I am seeing as the obstacle (discussed more below)
           4. Her mentioning the boyfriend was the wall and I banged my head against it by acknowledging it. I should of just ignored it as I cannot think of any way to turn this around (suggestions here would be good if this comes up as obstacle or if it a dead hard wall where things are already over).

           Focusing on point 3 above, this is what I see as the girl putting in an obstacle. If I am following the thread of thought, the appropriate response would be something like:

           Me : Do you have a cargo space on the bike?
           Her: I do have cargo space in front and back but it has a box for carrying things

           Me: Excellent, I put get in the front cargo box and I drive the bike to the bar like I stole both you and it and If I hear the police sirens, I will lose then in the alley ways and we talk about the police chase over drinks ;)

           Would the above be more inline with what I should be doing?

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             04/29/2018 at 11:55 am

             Correction:

             Me: Excellent, I put get in the front cargo box and I drive the bike to the bar like I stole both you and it and If we hear the police sirens, we lose then in the alley ways and we talk about the police chase over drinks ;)

             The ‘I will lose them’ is changed to ‘we will lose them’. Mind set was still I am doing things but it should be ‘we’ are doing things together.

             Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             04/29/2018 at 6:32 pm

             Ok, funny. Your original response for her bike issue was bottom guy, and your new approach is much worse, much more bottom guy. You’re improving the bottom guy, thus being even more bottom.

             Why?

             Because the bike is the ‘wall’. She’s rejecting you with it. The bike is ‘rejection’. Rejection is for bottom guy. She would not give that excuse to Leonardo Dicaprio, so the bike is inconsequential. In the original response you took it at face value and tried to solve it, and in the new situation you got extra creative with it. What are you being specially creative with?

             With her arousal? did she shine and lit up and got closer and things were getting warmer and you escalated there?

             Or did she give you an obstacle and that’s where you got creative?

             Do you see it?

             Rejection is the trap for bottom guy. She gave you a wall: and you invested MORE.

             See what I said a few comments back about rejection is the trap for bottom guy and when she offers rejection, bottom guy becomes submissive to it and over-invests?

             That’s what you have to unlearn.

             But first the basics.

             ————————————————–

             “and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. ”

             If you’re going to invite her somewhere, make sure she’s going to say yes. When you are going to escalate, get her compliance first. In other words, make sure the temperature is right, make sure she’s into you, etc. Don’t put her on a spot where she has to say yes/no unless you’ve led her into yes territory. In this case you moved ahead of the pace, you pushed to isolate her before she was ready, so she set a wall.

             There are only walls and doors (in my analogy) so obstacles are walls btw.

             “and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. ”

             Why?

             Why not escalating and getting her into you where you are? why try to extract her?

             Anyway. Note the contrast with this:

             “Me : Her issues are not my problem
             Her: hahahahahaha”

             Do you see the ‘hahahahaha’ ? that’s arousal. So there is where you have to invest. You not taking on the problems of some other girl, is you not being bottom guy for that other girl, which arouses this girl. But to this girl, you want to take her problems and you try to solve them. Even though these are fake problems.

             Look at it

             —————————–

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             That’s a wall.

             What do you do with a wall? you ignore it. Her wall is her problem not yours. She can bait a bottom guy with it but not you. So her bike is the wall, but there’s also an opening, a door. What is it?

             She’s talking to you, so she’s into you, that’s the opening.

             Maybe the opening is that she will fuck you in the bathroom but she wont’ walk 20 min to another bar.

             Maybe the opening is she needs another 20 min and a kiss before being ready to be extracted. The opening is there. Go back in your memories and understand the things she did react to. What did you do that made her aroused?

             So it’s not about the bike and her boyfriend. That’s not where your focus has to go. Focus on the YES. Don’t focus on her resistance.

             Makes sense?

             If you focus on her YES and keep arousing her, and when you know she’ll say yes then you move on to extract her, she’ll give a minimal game or resistance but it wont be real, and you won’t engage with it.

             So let’s say this wall from her was a minimal shit test that can be dealt with top-guy style. Pay attention

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             The solution to that is escalation. You escalate by pushing away the wall, or ignoring it, while escalating on her arousal. Or, you lead strongly into her YES, and bypass the NO.

             You can also smash the wall if you feel like it. Here are several anternatives

             ———–

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             Me: Your issues are not my problem (see?)

             * * *

             Me: Don’t be boring. Let’s go.

             * * *

             Me: We’ll come for your bike later

             * * *

             Me: What kind of loser rides a bike to a bar?
             Me: I bet is a pink barbie bike with a lasso on it?
             Me: I want to see it, show me

             And when you’re out: make out and take her home.

             ————————-

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               04/29/2018 at 7:52 pm

               In reading your explanation, I can now see that the ‘obstacle’ is actually a wall and have to get this right in my mind. At the time, I was really thinking it being a logistical problem where I would have to somehow solve it to move her.

               For background purposes, If I think back, i was getting attention from her as I was not behaving like the other two guys who were constantly trying to get rapport with the girls on topics they were bringing up or various conversation threads while I was generally breaking rapport by giving different opinion on whatever topic or being a bit sharper with my words (wasnt always calculated). I also detected that she liked me when the discussion turned to languages and the one guy was arabic and she asked him (pointing to me) to say ‘That is a nice ring’. I had a silver snake ring on finger and she was asking about it and if it meant something (I said no but now think I should of made some story about eve and the snake that tempted her in the garden of eden). There was also some various other topics that the group of people were going on and I was directing the conversation and pulling in other peoples opinions on certain parts. In short, I was leading the group discussion more often than not. The blend of things are what likely created attraction from her but turns out not solidly enough.

               In total, I had already reached the end of the evening and it was either ask and try to get her out or just leave without trying. I decided to try not knowing where I was at with her and the previous post is how the end part went. Location would not of allowed anything just given the setup of the event (although I would be shit scared to try anything like that at current skill level).

               You mention a point on ‘escalation’ if she sets a wall. I have always understood escalation as being the physical escalation (ie. touching, kissing, etc) and not the verbal escalation. Would the ‘escalation on wall’ (ie. pushing the wall) be the three possible answers you mentioned? Most of your posts say to ignore the wall (ie. pretend i didnt hear it) but pushing the wall is something that is not clear how todo without resulting in my acknowledging + engaging with it somehow.

               As a general question, if after an interaction that was not certain on the girls compliance but conditions force it (remember I am still unlearning + learning), is it best to try anyways to move the girl to a new location (from initial group location) or is it best to just leave it unless there is 100% certainly she will come?

               Again, Thank you for taking to time to help ‘cleanse my mind’ of bottom guy. Bit by bit, it is starting to fall in place.

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/29/2018 at 8:54 pm

               It’s “escalation on her arousal” while “pushing AWAY the wall”

               Not ‘pushing the wall’ as if you were trying to knock it down or solve it. You’re rejecting the wall, or turning it into an opportunity.

               In your case it might have been to bang her in the bathroom.

               Or getting her contact to bang her later.

               Or even better than getting her contact, already making plans to go somewhere some other time.

               But sure sometimes you don’t know what’s the actual temperature and you make a move. That’s like flipping a coin and it’s valid.

               If the result of you flipping the coin and making a move she’s not ready for is getting a ‘wall’ like you did there, then push ‘away’ the wall, neg her, push her away etc, WHILE you rub her the right way in some other way.

               Here’s a case example from Riv – the girl he was going to meet wanted to bring a friend (which is a wall to the possibility of having sex), so the solution was to flirt to the friend through the girl, then reject the idea, see how the girl reacted (predictably)

               https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/yohami-helps-rivelino-text-game/

             • J.S. says:

               06/15/2018 at 5:05 am

               “Maybe the opening is that she will fuck you in the bathroom but she wont’ walk 20 min to another bar.”

               How do bathroom fucks, say in a dance-bar, work?

               You lead her there silently after a heavy make-out? You wait until she goes there herself and follow her / meet her on the exit and then take her inside? There is one small corridor with multiple bathrooms in the club I have in mind.

6. Lucretius says:

   04/30/2018 at 6:15 pm

   I needed to re-read everything again (whole thread) and it is now at the third time.
   The more times I read it, the more the words start to mean something different and the picture is starting to form in my mind.

   Paradoxically, it has created a problem in that I am now having difficulty in opening girls because what I thought was right before was allowing the conversation to at minimum get started with varying degrees of success. Now however, I am second guessing myself since i started “game” 9 months back.

   I can understand that leading with ‘direct intent’ from the very open would have to be the only way to open girls at a night venue (eg. bar) because of the time (it is dark) and the context (girls are out for party / sex).
   The issue in the above is for during the day where I am going to work (dressed in a suit) or coming from work and am waiting for the metro like everyone else and I see a girl I like and make some comment to get the discussion going. Something says that if I open at 9am with ‘your cute, who are you?’ that I am not being socially ‘normal’ but if I start with something else contextual / situational / notice something about her that she responds to and then transition into something like ‘but your cute, who are you?’, then it feels like it makes social sense and can continue from there.

   Does it appear like I am perhaps over thinking things on this aspect?

   Thinking back, when I have no structure and am just feeling good + chatty is when the girls reaction is good and here I am just talking about whatever nonsense comes to my head in the moment.

   Any time I put a structure to it (or try to put a structure to it), everything freezes up and instinctively I dont talk to the girl. I dont get approach anxiety like during the first 10 sets i ever did but there is something that doesnt feel right and this likely is being communicated in my vibe. From the past 2 weeks, I just instinctively avoided talking to the girl because of the above.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/30/2018 at 6:49 pm

     Yeah. So what I’d advise you is stop trying to game the girls and just talk to them. Open ‘interesting conversations’ with girls and guys, be sociable. Remove the trickery. Once you’re comfortable talking to anyone, in any situation, add flirting to the mix.

     Daygame is about the worst situation I can think of for a beginner to learn game. The numbers are on my side of this interpretation, as the saying is you need ‘a thousand of approaches’ just to get started, then years of suck, then even at a moderately advanced level you still need to open 20 girls to get a few phone numbers. This is insanity.

     If you’re an attractive man, which means you maximized your potential, and you have good social skills, and you’re a player (which means you are banging girls left and right), and you have a commanding but relaxed tone voice, and you’re indifferent to outcome but you know what you want, and you know how to flirt, etc – if you are already THE MAN, if you’re TOP GUY, if you’re ALPHA, if you know perfectly what you’re doing, then… then… you can go anywhere during day, start talking to a girl you like, and she’ll know immediately what’s up, and you’ll flirt and banter and make her feel things and she’ll be giving you her contact desperately so you can take her out and bang her.

     If you’re not the above, well that’s where your aim should be. Being that guy.

     This whole other approach where you go after a number of girls with a few phrases and a few techniques in order to get their phones etc – that’s just nonsense. That process has NOTHING to do with actually fucking girls. It’s worlds apart.

     So the goal should be to becoming the guy who can fuck the girls he likes, a guy who’s attractive, and leads. A guy the girls see across the street and think “wow I wish that guy would talk to me”. If you’re not that guy all the effort put elsewhere is ultimately misplaced.

     To circle it back then – when I say “learn to have interesting converstions with just anyone” is because you need to be able to talk, cold read, ping things that are going to elicit emotion, have enough empathy and curiosity to read and stimulate another human being, being social enough that it doesn’t produce any kind of fear to start a conversation, etc. That’s just level 1. Then you need to learn to read these same things in a sexual setup, aka, know how to flirt, how to read interest, how to generate interest. How to tell stories. How to set and cross boundaries. This is deep and wide.

     Then you need to learn to lead, command, double down, manage relationships, create and sustain a chain of command. Then you need to learn all of the above from a higher position of abundance, as in you’re the one running the party and inviting people in.

     Without this stuff – it doesn’t matter if you yad stop or approach sideways or the phrases you say and what kind of intent. If you’re not ‘the man’ you’re playing a game that is set against you. So how you become the man? that’s deeper.

     But if you’re “the man” you can tell a girl: hey you’re cute, who are you? and it doesn’t matter what you’re dressed like and what else is going on.

     You can force yourself to do so and see what happens. All the ‘disconnect’ you’ll feel is just the gap between your actual you and the version of yourself you have to become.

     There’s this guy Tim (aka fuckboy) who’s talking about this stuff recently, watch his stuff, he’s on point on everything I’ve seen from him so far. He does do Daygame so there’s videos of him to watch and compare.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       04/30/2018 at 6:59 pm

       Watch all you can from this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNTT8po6Kg he uses a different terminology that I do, but we’re talking about the same

       In his first live video he explains how he got ‘good’ at game after years of being a PUA because he befriended ‘top social guys’ like promoters and biz owners etc and guys in command who had a lot of entitlement, aka what I call ‘Top guy frame” so he learned to be like that. In most his daygame videos he does say stuff like “you’re cute who are you”. Note how the girls react.

       Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       04/30/2018 at 9:02 pm

       Your reply articulates what was a very vague feeling in the back of my head for a while but one that I could not pin down.

       From a work / office standpoint, I am able to speak with various levels of people within the hierarchy including doing presentation in front of 30-40 people including my management without any sort of nervousness.

       From a social interaction standpoint, I have absolutely ZERO problem is speaking to both guys and girl just to talk with them about whatever. Previously, when it came to sex, the girls were moving things along more than me (I was clueless they wanted sex) but after sex, my brain saw sex coming from girl and then ‘malfunctioned’ into bottom guy (with related behaviours) which caused me to lose girls afterwards except girls I didnt care about at all who paradoxically then stuck to me like glue.

       Due to ending a particular relationship with a girl, I start doing “game” as a way forward and then everything ‘malfunctions’ again (ie. worse results than no game – here I mean daygame styled via Krauser / Tom / etc). From daygame the key positive outcome was that it opened up the possibility of just meeting girls and this changed my perspective because I was speaking with random girls and getting numbers (just like Nash is doing) which is something I never did before and it felt GOOD. Before it was all social circle.

       The issue then is that I always tried to fit girls into the model and I would keep losing them because I thought I needed todo Coffee + Drink 1 + Drink 2 then Sex whereas I recall a girl wanted sex 40min after meeting her (2 min talk with immediate coffee instadate with just under 40min chitchat + kino) but I was like ‘lets do a drink on friday’ (5 days away) and ofcourse she cooled down by then and it was over.

       To be clear, I have nothing against any PUA but the problem for me personally from this discussion is that I am trying to ‘follow a model / structure’ to reach sex and this itself is the obstacle (that I seem to be putting in my own way) and because it is someone else’s model, I dont know if I am doing it right or not which causes me to get nervous and freeze up. It isnt rejection from the girl (ie. girl says no) that is driving this problem but if I am doing the ‘model’ right or not and therefore failing (at applying the model) – this is all subconscious but is becoming visible from the discussions over the past few days. The logic may be ‘if bad at model then no sex’ but I have had sex before applying and kind of model, therefore causing a cognitive dissonance on what is required to reach sex.

       It is like one psychological issue is masking another and this would explain why i get good results (ie. good girl response) when I am just ‘freestyling’ it in the moment and talking about whatever. As there is no model, everything flows smoothly (in my case) because I am not aiming success or failure, I am just talking to the girl as I feel good. Afterwards when my vibe calms down, my mind turns to model (ie. formal structure) when it comes to texts and things again fall apart (predictably looking now in hindsight).

       From reading your responses, you are not providing me (and other readers) with a model or playbook but are providing principles to follow (from what I have watched, Tim is doing the same). Techniques will always be there (eg. story telling, roleplay, teasing, etc) but the principles are what is shaping my mind (eg. girl always DTF, go for doors, avoid walls, etc).

       It is short sentences such as those below that I am referring to:

       ***
       “At the same time, what the girl has on her mind at all times is “is he top or bottom guy?”, and the presence of top guy arouses her, stimulates her and excites her, makes her ‘easy’; while the presence of bottom guy makes her scared, repulsed, closed, difficult. So she’ll throw things at you, but clues or bait for top guy to take her, and walls or obstacles or bait for screening out bottom guy. The whole courtship is a shit test. Just that the top guy never sees the ‘shit’ part, because all the shit is for the bottom guy.

       So she’s asking on the back of her mind if you’re top guy, and you’re asking on the back of yours if she’s worth a fuck. The context of it all is [to have sex].”
       ***

       The above is what sets the interaction and it is my function / responsibility to work the interaction within the above context more towards sex with the girl if I like the girl and not to follow a particular “model” to get sex. I need to look for more principles like they are articulated above. Anything else that has not been mentioned yet? (Still going through your previous links but will also start scanning through Nash blog)

       My focus needs to be to strip away everything daygame + PUA over the coming weeks and then start over by just interacting with girls as I was before on feel good vibe while applying the ‘principles’ that you have mentioned thus far (ie. context = to have sex).

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/30/2018 at 9:38 pm

         Yes – yes yes. You got it.

         Freestyle is perfect. The thing to keep an eye on is ‘where you’re coming from’ which is why I talk about frame here all the time.

         It’s logical that you’ve getting worse results ‘with game’ and structure than you had before. You put some stuff on the way that has to be taken out. The principles is what matters.

         It’s like a tennis match. You need a repertoire of techniques, a vocabulary. You need to know what is what. What you can’t have is a match pre-scripted, because each player on the other side of the net is going to do something different, and you need to act / react on the spot.

         What matters is that you know what’s going on, and you know why you’re there, you know what’s the win scenario, what’s the lose scenario, and you adapt to each situation and make the most of it.

         There’s no structure that you can do all the time and gets you results. If you are fixed on a form, then you’ll only be compatible with the rare situation when the other player miraculously does exactly what’s needed for you to win with a pre-scripted routine. But if you look at it – is that even possible? chances are the girl is the one playing along and gaming you :-) otherwise how could you even bang her, if you don’t know what you’re doing? because she made it happen.

         Someone’s got to make it happen. If you don’t know what you’re doing, then she is the driving force.

         All this above is why PUAs numbers are abysmal, and proper players bang 10+ a month if they want to.

         At the same time if you ‘freestyle’ and just have a toolset of techniques, then a the end of the day all the games are the same and all the girls are the same. Because the principles are strong and immutable. Top guy always gets the girl, and bottom guy always loses the girl. The rest is fine details. But you get a LOT (LOT) of mileage by every little inch of top guy you manage to pull off, even if you don’t know what you’re doing. Also girls get in trance when stimulated, even if you fuck up they rewrite the story on their minds in your favor if stimulated (and rewrite it against you if not!).

         Anyway. Focus on being THE MAN.

         If you’re already good at socialization, practice adding more cocky funny, learn to put yourself on a pedestal, flirt more, tease more, lead more, and learn to deal with women like they really are: completely feral animals. Learn to not invest on their rejections and walls and not work extra hard when they want to make you do so, but set your own boundaries and do your own screening, while not taking any of it seriously. Thats the principle. You have to be at the top of your own world and nothing can knock you down from it – and understand that half her screening process will be to try to knock you down from it, which you must reply by not letting her and putting her in her place; and the other half of her screening will be throwing her pussy at you to see if you can take it, to which you have to escalate and take her x10. In the shortest amount of time possible. All without needing her. All like you can have any girl like her or better in half the time if you wanted. And with ease.

         There’s no ‘structure’ for that.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/30/2018 at 9:52 pm

           This guy has lots of good tips on charisma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH0UqZSv9ks

           Reply
7. Lucretius says:

   05/03/2018 at 5:16 pm

   I have a curious thought on rapport.

   I can understand why a girl may find rapport building by the guy to be unattractive in that the guy may be “sucking up” to her by agreeing + being supportive of the girl. This indirectly could communicate “lower value” as the guy may not have a thought of his own. Girls could also use the guys rapport building as bait for a trap to see if the guy is going to always be agreeable on everything.

   The question is why would a girl find ‘breaking rapport’ to be attractive.
   – Would it be a sense of independence that the guy exhibits in having his own opinions on a topic that is attractive?
   – Would it be that be disagreeing, the guy shows that he is not “sucking up” to the girl?
   – Would it be that the guy having shown disagreement (ie. breaking rapport) has the girl wanting to agree with him instead of him with her?
   – Some other reason that I cannot think of at the moment?

   I am looking for the above understanding to avoid just needlessly breaking rapport just so I am actually breaking rapport. I would imagine that breaking rapport 100% of the time would eventually have the inverse effect of attraction.

   My gut says that somewhere there has to be a balance – for me to find this point, it would be good to have a better understanding of rapport / breaking rapport from what other people theorize or have experienced. I can easily see girls using rapport building + breaking as a test of a guy.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     05/03/2018 at 6:32 pm

     It’s simpler, and it’s because biology. What hols the whole scheme together, is that girls are intrinsically attracted to the men at the top of the power pyramid.

     Everything about these men is attractive.

     When a behavior is naturally attractive to women, it’s always a behavior that is compatible with being at the top of the pyramid.

     When a behavior is naturally unattractive, it’s always a behavior that is incompatible with being at the top, or worse, compatible with being at the bottom.

     When a behavior is neutral, then it’s always a behavior that can be done by both men at the top and the bottom. In such cases you’ll see that girls love the behavior when a man from the top does it, but hate it when it comes from a man from the bottom.

     —–

     So what’s the deal with rapport?

     Think of the male celebrities when they enter a room and everyone knows who they are and want a piece. Or, imagine you’re a celebrity and enter a room and there are 40 guys looking up to you, 20 other wanting to start trouble with you, and 50 girls all dying to fuck your brains out. You enter that place, you say hi.

     You go from one person to another, do some chit chat, and move on. Eventually a group forms around you, you talk to the group, then you escape the group, and a new one forms around you, Then you find a couple of people you already like and you talk to them for some longer time, then someone important comes trying to drag you away to introduce you to someone else. And on, and on, and on, and on.

     Now look at what each interaction consists of.

     There are all micro relationships, all high intensity, all full of significance, you probably were nice to a bunch of people, an asshole to a few of them, and then you move on. For everyone who wanted more of you, which is everyone there, everyone of them is hung up wanting ‘more’.

     That interaction is something girls crave.

     That interaction precisely.

     And it’s hardwired.

     Now contrast – in that same room there’s another guy who nobody is interested in, a perfectly reasonable and good looking and smart and nice guy with all the time and attention in the world to give. He starts talking to a girl he likes and wants to engage in conversation, wants to get to know her, what are her dreams and aspirations, who is she, also would love to share his own thoughts and secrets and expose himself, and has all the time in the world to do so. So he’s having a conversation with this girl, and then…

     The famous dude comes to order some drink, sees the girl, tells the bartender “give this girl anything she likes” then stops by, rants / flirts for a couple minutes and leaves.

     Then the girl is set against the bar again talking to the nicer guy.

     So – who does she want to fuck now?

     ————————————–

     It’s hardwired.

     Breaking rapport is attractive because it’s compatible with top guy frame. That’s all.

     If you want to micro analyze it, breaking rapport means you don’t need the interaction and have better things to do, and she’s not interesting enough – YET. She may earn that in the future, but right now, going to the point, the top guy would talk to her to screen if she’s fertile and not crazy and figure if she passes his boner test and then bang her shortly after. THIS is the sexual courtship. He may get to know her AFTER. After sex, maybe, have a nice chat. Maybe after five or six encounters. But the sexual courtship is about penis in vagina (that’s why you are talking to her, isn’t it), not about what’s your childhood like and what are your passions and what’s your job like and what did you have for breakfast, is your car working, tell me the names of your pets, and keep stretching this kind of bullshit for DATES.

     So again.

     Rapport is unattractive because it’s what beta guys do when they can’t just fuck the girl.

     And rapport is specially unattractive when the bottom guy tries to offer it as it had any value, like when rapport comes along with “caring” and then the rapport is done basically to tell the girl how good of a heart you have and how motherly you can be, aka, you’re trying to be a girl.

     Makes sense?

     ————

     Then rapport has a value elsewhere, just not in courtship.

     And there’s an exception for this: girls who get aroused by doing rapport exclusively. Aka girls who talk a lot, or shy girls who are repressed and need a space to explode and come out. You’ll identify them easily because as soon as any instance of rapport, even if casual happens, they can’t stop talking, and when you touch on certain subjects they lit up or get all IOI. In these cases, well, talk more, do more rapport before breaking it, or, rapport till they get in that state, then break it so you keep escalating, then do rapport again.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       05/04/2018 at 6:02 am

       More laser focus:

       Breaking rapport is intrinsically non-needy, so it’s only compatible with top guy: highly attractive

       Rapport can go both ways: can be done by a needy person, and can be done by a non-needy person, so it can be either attractive or unattractive, depending on the context.

       Chasing Rapport (investing more than she does with the hopes she invests back): Can only be done by needy guy so it’s intrinsically unattractive. Insisting on having a conversation about food or work or family or hobbies when she’s there to be fucked, or, ‘talking’ when you could be ‘doing’, or ‘talking when you could be escalating’ or ‘talking about stuff when you could be doing roleplaying, judging, teasing, making her laugh, leading’ falls in this category.

       ——————-

       Looking at the above, that’s why it’s ok to initiate rapport and then break it. You get the good things from rapport, then flip it to high value by breaking it.

       And breaking rapport is not just ‘stop talking’.

       Breaking rapport is using rapport as a bridge between your ping and your call to action. Or changing subjects. Or interrupting a conversation that is turning boring with something that is more interesting. Or inserting judgement in your rapport. Or making a joke. Or moving her around. etc.

       “when are you free? I’ll take you out”

       Is an example of Rapport -> Breaking Rapport so it’s highly attractive

       Reply
       • arr123 says:

         05/08/2018 at 7:50 am

         Could you compare and contrast

         “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

         vs

         “I’ll take you out – when are you free?”

         The second one feels so much more natural to me since I am motivation my question by previos desire/intention. Asking “when are you free?” first feels off.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/08/2018 at 4:52 pm

           Strangely for me it is the opposite. In my mind, I am always thinking drinks instead of ‘out’ but yohami already addressed this.

           But my feel is the following:

           “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

           This is question first for her to give information and workout her schedule herself. The ‘I’ll take you out’ is the why the guy is asking. If girl not free, then guy wont take her out.

           this contrasts with
           “I’ll take you out – when are you free?”

           Which is “as guy I am going todo something for you and I want to know when I can do it for you”.

           I am betting that yohami may say that the first is giving girl space to come to guy whereas the second is guy going to girl (ie. guy trying to close space).

           Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           05/08/2018 at 5:15 pm

           Questions are rapport seeking

           Calls to action are leadership

           If you do this:

           “I’ll take you out, when are you free?”

           The intention is stated, but you end on a high pitch which passes the ball to her as if you are doing conversation. The power is fully passed to her.

           If you do this instead

           “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

           You ask the question, which is rapport, but then the call to action breaks the rapport. So the question is not the core of the line, but the call to action is

           Or, the first one is beta and the second one is alpha.

           We’re talking inches, but at the same time the difference is huge. Why?

           ————————————————–

           Your job is to find the sweet spots, or the arousal spots, or the opportunities, and take action on them.

           So let’s replace the lines with the frames of each

           [ What are the opportunities?] [I will invest my money]

           This frame above has your choice already made, or, you’re going laser focus to take action as soon as you see the opportunity. Or, the question is a brief ping to the external world and as soon as the world give you the cue, you’re ready to act.

           Vs.

           [I will invest my money] [What are the opportunities?]

           Do you see it?

           This frame has the action set under a conditional and the opportunities are unknown. So this is more ‘chill’ but also may likely result in not investing any money and studying more opportunities since it goes out to the world in search of something but who knows what it will find.

           ————————-

           Or

           [Where are the good looking girls?] [I will have sex tonight]

           This IS HAPPENING.

           Compare

           [I will have sex tonight] [Where are the good looking girls?]

           Do you see how this question, at the end, opens a dimension for a negative outcome?

           I do. If I do, girls see this x100.

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/08/2018 at 7:57 pm

             I can understand the aspect of possible negative outcome although my feeling is that the words people use subtly would give away their “frame / perspective / mental state”.

             If we swap out sex for something something such as food and we rewrite everything, it reads like this:

             “What does the menu have? I want to eat”
             vs
             “I want to eat – what does the menu have?”

             The first line is saying the person has a direction (to eat) but is not committed to this “direction” (if menu good, i satisfy hunger else not).

             The second line is saying the opposite that they are committed to this direction (to eat) and now checking what is available (I hungry, hope menu doesnt dissappoint).

             Obviously in real world, a person can just not order anything to eat but it feels to me that there is a difference between the two (question + rationale vs statement + question). This feels like something todo with NLP.

             It seems subtle but in the context of sex (or getting girl out), the second looks “needy” whereas the first is “non-needy”. This would likely have some use in trying to work out where other guys + girls are when in direct or group discussion or even debugging / analyzing ones own verbals and texts.

             Any counter thoughts?

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 8:19 pm

               Yep.

               Note thought that the replacement you used, “I want to eat” is not a command, call to action etc. It’s closer to what Nash has been using which is “I want to see you” as opposed to the call to action “I will take you out”

               Also on your specific situation the real message being conveyed is “what’s the menu”. You don’t even need to state you want to eat. The purpose of the communication there is the gathering of information. You can just go as:

               “What do you have to eat?”

               And, making questions / going for rapport is valid, useful and sometimes proper even in courtship.

               It just falls on the ‘less attractive’ side of the spectrum. So why do it, when you can do the attractive form instead.

             • arr123 says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:24 pm

               “What does the menu have? I want to eat”
               vs
               “I want to eat – what does the menu have?”

               When I come into a new, unkown/unrecommended place, I usually start with “show me the menu” even before taking a seat and walk out if I don’t see what I like. So it’s “Can I see the menu? I’m hungry”

               When I come into the place I’ve been to before, it’s “I’m hungry. [The usual. And] hurry up!”

               I can see how yohami’s question is a necessary ping before the call to action, but I wouldn’t even call the action if such a ping was needed and the lead wasn’t already warm. His approach is more of shock-and-awe, IMHO.

             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:58 pm

               “shock-and-awe”

               It’s “ping her desire, then take her”

             • Lucretius says:

               05/08/2018 at 10:13 pm

               out of reply buttons …

               The point of using “i want to eat” was about the sentence structure and the subtleties that it entails between the two. It is the slips of words that show whats happening in the mind. There would be multiple ways in saying the same thing and when thinking about food, I doubt people are going to pass judgement on you if you say one or the other because it is just food.

               But switch it back to sex, and judgement will be passed because girls have the filtering mechanism.

               @yohami
               Saying the same thing using less words is always better but I kept to the same words but different order to illustrate a concept as I saw it. I would say that the “I’ll take you out” part of the sentence is not ‘breaking rapport’ unless there was some ongoing larger discussion thread and the guy cuts it by saying “When are you free? I’ll take you out”.

               If called a potaato or potatoo, doesnt matter much but the concept I understand.

             • arr123 says:

               05/08/2018 at 10:19 pm

               “It just falls on the ‘less attractive’ side of the spectrum. So why do it, when you can do the attractive form instead.”

               Because this is not a one-dimensional [attraction] dance, as you are trying to present at the moment.

           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:35 pm

             COMPARE

             [We’ll have sex this week] [When are you free?]

             to

             [When are you free?] [We’ll have sex this week]

             Your mini-stack seems to be tailored to **create** attaction — not to be a more of a logistical bridge of the attraction already established.

             Am I missing something?

             Reply
           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:38 pm

             I do — now — see the [full] power transfer to the girl if the question comes in the end… Insteresting…

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:10 am

               Yep open your eyes to these ‘small’ things, they are not small – they come from a frame. Specially when the rest of your behavior comes from the same place

               Regardless of the specific content, this structure is a question to her and is asking her for permission:

               [We’ll have sex this week] [When are you free?]

               While this structure is only ‘formally’ asking for her availability then telling her what is going to happen regardless, or, the question is only there to prepare her for the call to action

               [When are you free?] [We’ll have sex this week]

               ——————————————————————

               The dance is:

               1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp

               2) Do the call to action

               Instead of:

               1) Call to action

               2) Ask her if she’s going to play

               ——————————————————————

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:28 am

               The dance is:

               1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp [this has been done way before the text exchange in question — the lead is already warm, moist, and waiting for me]

               2) Do the call to action [which is “I’ll take you out”]

               + 3) Work out logisitics/take into account her own life [“When are you free?”]

               Instead of:

               1) Irrelevant question [“When are you free”]

               2) Ask her if she’s going to play [“I’ll take you out”]

         • YOHAMI says:

           05/08/2018 at 5:25 pm

           Compare:

           [Where are your friends? Im going to make a party]

           To:

           [Im going to make a party, where are your friends?]

           Do you see it?

           ——————————————

           In the first one you visualize the friends, where are they? then the call to action cristalized them, makes an image of them in a party.

           In the second one you are making a party, but then, where are the friends? did the visualization put them in the party, or spread around and nowhere to be found?

           Then there’s even more, really.

           I WILL TAKE YOU OUT

           That’s what you’re communicating.

           What you don’t care about, at all, is “when are you free”. This is a moot point. The proper response from her should be “now” or “always”. The only reason why the question is even there is to generate the ping so she can prepare for the call to action.

           COMPARE

           Me: Have you been kissed before? (moves in for the kiss)

           To

           Me: (moves in for the kiss) Have you been kissed before?

           Do you see how the question even works as a neg?

           By placing the question after the call to action you break the call to action – you introduce a block for yourself.

           But the question has a valid placement before the call to action. You don’t even need a response – and you can break that mini rapport yourself with escalation. You get the good aspects of making a question without any of the bad outcomes that can be associated to them.

           Reply
           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:19 pm

             Compare:

             [Where are your friends? I having a party]

             To:

             [I’m having a party. Where are your friends?]

             It seems like you are talking about girls who you’ve met on-line only and haven’t had face-time yet. In my case, when I say “I’ll take you out”, I’ve already evaluated her and decided to invest. “When are you free?” is just working out the details/logistics.

             Your explanation makes sense, but it seems to apply to the context different from mine.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:44 pm

               In the context that you are going to fuck the girl – putting the question and breaking that rapport with a call to action is stronger than stating a call to action and then blocking it with a question.

               If it’s not obvious try to experiment with both ways – not just the phrase but the whole framing.

               Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

               Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.

               It’s night and day. But do your own research.

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 3:39 am

               “In the context that you are going to fuck the girl”

               You are being blindfully obtuse to the actual context.

               “Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

               Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.”

               I’m not installing Tinder again… Thanks, but “NO, THANKS!”

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 5:03 am

               “In the context that you are going to fuck the girl”

               In that narrow context, the best thing is to pay. Or go to SEA/EE and pay. Very efficient.

               But the real/actual context is very different. And it’s not even the “seed” context you are talking about – in the least due to condoms.

               You view the M-F dance unidimentionally in terms of dominance/hierarchies as the main driver of attraction/desire while completely ignoring such dimensions as passion, expression, and actualization.

               NAWATS — Not All Women Are Tinder Sluts!

               [https://bullshit.ist/tinder-is-a-modern-day-whorehouse-i-said-it-723094ca69fc]

               ;)

     • YOHAMI says:

       05/04/2018 at 8:43 am

       Google around to check how this breaking rapport vs chasing rapport work in your tone voice

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9b9NxMzDNQ

       The guy in this video explains it properly but has a hard time pulling it off – still is a good watch

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         05/04/2018 at 5:08 pm

         In reading your response, you have described my conversational behaviour prior to learning about game where I was just talking and interacting (asexually) with girls + guys, teasing girls when they said something silly, having my own opinion on things both that were in agreement + disagreement with the girls / guys opinion and just general chit chat (I was not looking to pickup the girls).

         The rapport topic came up because every “game source” says “rapport = unattractive; breaking rapport = attractive” without providing much context as to why. This re-affirms my thoughts on why “structured game” has caused me to go “backwards” with girls instead of forwards compared to how I was before in interactions when I was not “trying to get the girl”.

         It is though the advice of “breaking rapport” is to fix a “beta problem” of constantly sucking up to the girl (rapport seeking), but in those who do not have this problem, it creates a new problem (self inflicted) because now there is “this thing the guy should be doing” to get the girl and itself leads to a new problem of doing it because one thinks it will get results without understanding it.

         A similar item is the concept of “entitlement”. I keep hearing about this over and over just like rapport / break rapport. In all honesty, I didnt understand what this thing was because for me there are girls at say four levels: Invisible, average, nice, really good looking. My problem was how to generally talk to the really good looking girls and without a way in my mind, I just didnt talk to them (sexually or asexually). This is also likely self inflicted due to conditioning on growing up where guys are generally teased about girls (I am no exception here to being teased). Fortunately, this “entitlement” thing isnt an issue that has affected me in any profound way as I never thought of any girl “outside my league” or even in leagues at all but I was just shy around the really pretty girls. The remedy is just to talk to them the same way as I would talk to the other girls (teasing, pulling them into the conversation, telling stories, etc).

         On another comment you mentioned earlier about frame (Where are you coming from?) – when a guy is consciously doing rapport, breaking rapport, teasing, neg, etc (ie. really trying to project), it gives impression to me personally like one is at “bottom guy” but trying to project “top guy” by painting top guy attributes / behaviours ontop. It feels very differently for me personally when I am comfortable / confident in myself and my standing (not thinking game at all in the moment) that the above happens naturally not through conscious effort but as a reflex action or trigger to lead the discussion / interaction.

         The more I think about “game” the more I feel that my path forward is likely “via negativa” (concept via Nicholas Taleb) where it isnt about adding more to achieve more but about removing things that are getting in the way. In your terminology Yohami, it would be “remove bottom guy” piece by piece.

         To date, the things that I have found positive thus far on game subject matter:
         1. Chase is death (paraphrasing yohami) – This has been proven over and over in my experiences. Just ignoring the girl is working untold amounts better than any follow up.

         2. Use door, ignore /push away walls (yohami concept) – This was something new very specific from this blog and it has already proven its value where the girls issues (in all its forms) are not my problem and that I take the doors provided. My specific challenge here is to be able to correctly identify these in their various forms

         3. Value / Power – Being higher value than girls is a continuous focus and expressed in verbals + nonverbals and is independent from any girl. Power in the sense that giving up decision / action power to the girl will lead to eventual death of courtship / relationship. This is based on higher vs lower value as high value never gives up power to lower value. This applies all the way into sex where the girl is testing to try to get control. This happened last night to me during sex when I told the girl to give me blowjob. She was on her knees about to start but looked up at me and said “say please” (ie. wanting me to say please to her). I kept quiet and calmly (unreactively with a smirk) repeated my instruction but she kept trying to have her way to get me to say please (literally nearly 7min). Eventually her frame collapsed and she did as I asked.

         4. Leading – It really is the case where the guy must move things forward. Even today, I have at least 3 girls that I made eye contact with that stopped near me waiting for me to start a discussion (I waiting for metro). The man is the initiator and must lead the interaction forward.

         5. Escalation – This was the major issue why I wasnt moving forward with girls in the past. I would like the girl but would just talk and talk and talk and things didnt move anyways (predictably now in hindsight) because I thought that things would “just happen”. This is one of the good things I learnt from daygame material (ie. physical escalation at the interaction is progressing).

         The process of unlearning “daygame habits” continues through attrition.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/05/2018 at 9:20 am

           All in all, getting rid of bottom guy is a difficult task as it has become reflex but at the same time trying to be top guy with bullet time to process everything is going to take some effort. I feel that I am going to have to burn quite a few more leads like this to make this progress. The following is from last night:

           Was at another drinks event last night and the top guy vs bottom guy is showing again in the people at the event. On the one hand, I am surprised by how predictable the bottom guy behaviour is from these guys (“I am so and so, I am from [place name], who are you? where are you from? You so beautiful, the woman from Poland are the most beautiful.)

           All the while, the polish girl is being polite and nodding to her with social touching involved (For reference, your points mentioned before on social touching here I did apply well in various discussion groups).
           I was also speaking with this girl and she was showing interest in me although I felt like I had to move through the same discussion just as a starter as I was a bit blank (bad point on my side but part necessary to identify the bottom guy reflex in me to remove).

           Her: Where you from?
           Me : I am from [country name]

           Her: How long you been here?
           Me : I have been here X amount of years

           Her: blah blah
           Me : blah blah. Lets move through the usual boring chit chat quickly (I detected the bottom guy in me there and was trying to steer away)

           At this point she was swarming with guys around her. A part of me wanted to talk to her alone to get to know her a bit (asexual for comfort) but every time a new guy came in, I had to hold off (ie. like being cockblocked). Something says that if I was to just keep speaking while every new guy came in, I would look bad (this could be deluding myself) so I kept playing on the “edges” of the interactions as each guy burned himself out (I was effectively trying to not be “bottom guy” like the other guys were doing there and then – I was fighting my bottom guy reflex). I could detect that I was starting to “hang around” so kept switching to another girl (hungarian) and then coming back, but the sense of hanging around was a bit strong from my self from what I felt – me wanting to talk to her but constantly being blocked. This is a very negative feeling for me to have as it projects negative energy outwards and I am sure girls 100% feel this (a development point – likely frame issue). This is still the bottom guy in me moving around like I am on a mission to pickup girls rather than just interacting with them. It has been progressively diminishing at every drinks event and expect that over more events it should reach zero and be completely gone. Even so with this girl, I could feel that I was ahead of the other guys by how she was interacting with me. I tried to insert in a tease here and there and also did a roleplay if me and her were on holiday to [some country name] how long would it take to adjust (she didnt flintch at me saying her and me). She didnt like the country were we are at (weather, people, etc).

           Through the constant interruptions, the time was getting late and I wanted to leave (nothing much happening and crowd thinning out). I was leaned against the bar with her in front of me and I was pressed for a move:

           Me : There are a lot of flies around here (referring to bottoms guys). Lets get a drink somewhere else
           Her: I think I am going to go home (her drunk friend was also leaving and gave me a hug but they were not together)

           She was took out her phone out and started looking at the metro lines. As I was looking to see what she was doing as she was right in front of me (human reflex of curiosity), she then covered her phone and said “you not seeing where I live”. I didnt say anything at this point and rather dismissed it looking away (in my mind I was saying it nothing of my business – knowing where she lives is irrelevant). I just switched off for a moment which caused a pause to appear (felt like 5-10sec). She then said:

           Her: You going somewhere else?
           Me : Yes, I will go

           Another pause (5-10 sec)

           Her: How long you been in here? (referring to country)
           Me : 7 years

           Another pause (5 sec)

           Her: You come here often?
           Me : *saying so so with hand*. Depends if the venue is good, then I come else not.

           The context on the above from my side was clear (drinks -> sex) but she was starting a conversation thread and it felt like if I engaged here, I was moving away from my “lets get a drink”. The part I think I could of improved was on the first response where I could of said “yes, I will go to bar XYZ near here” or “you are going home but I am going somewhere else” but the above is the way it went (I already mentioned in earlier discussion that I lived 10min away). My mind is slowly starting to add “[to have sex]” into every statement but requires more interactions. Speaking on which, I could of changed the last line to “Depends on who is attenting …”.

           Another pause (10 sec).

           Then another guy jumped in again and started to talk to her (same type of bottom guy talk). I just kept leaning at the bar (back to bar while facing her) without saying anything, periodically talking my phone out and looking at it just to occupy the pause (waiting on the girl and me NOT chasing). After about 5 min of this, I got the number of the hungarian girl that was to my left (this was the other girl I was alternating with – I just said that I am leaving soon but wanted to know if she wanted to get a drink another time. She said yes. This was in front of the polish girl. I think I was inadvertently playing one against the other). Sensing that the polish girl of the above interaction was not going to move, I went to get my jacket and said my goodbyes to the guy that was talking to the polish girl (shook his hand – I didnt know who he was) and then was to say goodbye to polish girl. She extended her hand (a yohami wall from her) but I just leaned forward and gave her 3x european kisses on the cheek (me ignoring her yohami wall) – this was all reflex. I think she said “Oh ok” or something of the sort as I moved to kiss her cheeks. For what can only be “bottom guy” reflex, I said “it was your choice” (stupid on my part) as I was moving away from her (I didnt look at her when saying it on way out of the bar). Dont know if this last comment may have affected the hungarian girl at the same time (will find out about hungarian girl status later)

           This last part from where I asked her for drinks in retrospect was me really stating my intention and just leaving it there. On the initial rejection by her saying that she is going home, it came to mind very specifically to not push against this and via reflex I just paused and did nothing. It was really unexpected that she was again starting the discussion and the above is how it went (a new reference experience for me). Not sure if I played the above right or not but am positively surprised that she re-initiated (feels good). It feels like I needed to provide “comfort” by just talking with her more (which I didnt do well earlier and this was likely showing here) before she would of decided to come along.

           For context on the hungarian girl, a bottom guy was talking her ear off (on her right) while I got her number (on her left) – I had been briefly speaking with her but was not stellar performance either. I wasnt thinking of reward / punishment in the moment, but after she put it in, she said she was not sure if it was the right number or not (good sign). I opened whatsapp and showed her the profile picture and she confirmed it correct. I then just sent my name as the message (no smilie or anything else). Would this count as a reward? My thinking for sending my name was that she would have my phone number and am I going to leave it for 1-2 days to see if she messages me first else I ping with “Hey ;)”

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/05/2018 at 9:29 am

             The freaking irony of everything (or just the magic of the yohami NO CHASE). I just got a message from the above polish girl via online platform just now:

             Her: Good morning the [my nationality] ;) It was nice to meet you yesterday. Did you go at the end to another place to continue the party? Regards, [Girl Name]

             My nationality is usually a talking point as I dont look like my nationality stereotype. My planned reply later today will be (unless Yohami can offer a more concrete suggestion):

             Me : Good morning to you too. Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)

             The ‘good morning’ is my reward. Dont have a teasing nickname for her as of yet. The ‘girly imagination’ is to get her hamster working, the smilie face would be the undertones. After the above, I am not sure if I need to stack with something or wait as I have a question mark there. My objective is to get a few lines of discussion before calling to action.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:24 am

               ” Good morning to you too. Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

               That’s a bottom guy text still :-)

               Why?

               “Good morning” you’re parroting back her same line back to her: you’re a follower, you’re playing into her frame

               “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

               You’re asking a question.

               The ‘girly’ is almost a nickname flirt but it doesn’t convey it. You close with an emoticon, aka flirting, but flirting to what exactly: you’re inviting her to put the work to think about what you did.

               Aight let’s fix it. This would be my reply

               ———————————————————————–

               Me: Hey [Nickname] ;-)
               Me: Yeah, I went to [another party] and had a lot of fun
               Me: You should have come

               —

               Line 1) is her ping / reward / flirt

               Line 2) is doubling down on her jealousy. What she actually wants to know is if you banged the other girl. Which you also have to double down on without confirming. Welcome to female sexual intercompetition

               Line 3) is passing judgement and making her feel she missed out. Note there’s not an emoticon or anything to soften this blow.

               So recap

               She is interested enough on you to initiate conversation. She wants to know if she made the right decision by not going with you last night, and if you fucked that other girl instead.

               If you want to fuck her, then the answer is YES, she made the wrong decision by not going out with you and YES, you banged fifteen other chicks and it was FANTASTIC and she’s out of the loop now.

               So my 3 lines go like this

               First flirt back and give her a nickname that is fitting and make her feel special

               Then state my independence of outcome from her and how things were fantastic

               Then if it was not clear enough I pass judgement down. So this is a mini carousel for her, and she’ll feel the spike of desire and jealousy, and a little awkwardness. Her response will be in the lines of:

               —

               Her: hahah I had to take care of my friend blah blah blah

               Her: blah bah (fake rapport)

               Her: Tell me what happened with the other girl.

               That last like is the actual question. There are a thousand ways she can ask this, she’ll ask her by name, or make a casual remark about you being alone, or whatever. When it comes up, you say she’s ‘fantastic’ then

               Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out

               —————–

               Do you see it?

8. Lucretius says:

   05/05/2018 at 11:51 am

   For this part “Good morning to you too.” I was trying to say hello back and reward her for starting the conversation but the part wrong was that I was repeating her words. If I understand, the correct response to her opening would always be something along the lines of:

   Me: hi hi [nickname] ;)
   Me: hey [nickname] ;)
   Me: morning [nickname] ;)

   But basically, the idea is to say ‘hello’ back to her but without using the same words as her.

   The nickname I understand the concept from another post you made and still need some practice. This girl I actually saw 3-4 weeks back at another event (skylounge at a 5 star hotel) and the key thing I noticed about her was that she was wearing all red (top + skirt). I didnt interact with her at this event but at this event, her red dress was the callback. There was blah blah about previous drinks and then

   Me : … and you were the girl in the red dress.
   Her: yes I was *smile*

   Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
   Her: Yes I was

   My initial thought that is coming to mind on the nickname here is to call her “girl in the red dress” but this was already in the past and not of last night so it seems kind of odd. Also talking about what she is wearing doesnt feel like I am going on the thread that you have weaving with your previous responses yohami. This particular girl likes to dress up with attention to clothing, jewelry, accessories and also hair. She likes to show that she is “upper class” / refined which was re-inforced by her purse. There is no specific personality trait that I can think of to get to a nickname. Any suggestions on this? Perhaps ‘hey glamour girl ;)’ but not sure on this (if you google glamour girl, you get a sense of what she looks like).

   For contrast, there was this other girl I was speaking to for a few events now and this girl likes to ‘spin bullshit on the fly’ by telling the other guys that her friend is a ‘dolphin trainer’ and they currently focusing on training seals (story changes) – all to get a reaction from guys. It is all nonsense that this girl is saying so here it could be ‘hey troublemaker ;)’ or ‘hey story teller ;)’

   For the next line I said “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”, I was doing as you thought I was doing. I wanted her to put in effort and imagine that I was with other girls. The emoticon was the wink for her to get it but if I term the ‘wink / smilie’ as flirty, then this doesnt make sense as I would be trying to make her jealous while flirting. Also her putting in effort doesnt feel right after your explanation.Your 2nd line of “Yeah, I went to [another party] and had a lot of fun” is much cleaner as it is just a statement.

   The nickname is the only part I am struggling with at the moment – will respond to her in about 2 hours to create longer vaccuum (for all she knows I just woke up). Will post her reply for everyone to see interaction and also learn on this aspect.

   Reply
9. Flat Lander says:

   05/05/2018 at 12:54 pm

   Simply “posh girl”.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     05/05/2018 at 6:35 pm

     “Hey posh ;-)” works

     Lucretius

     “Good morning to you too.”

     The issue here is, specifically, parroting the same line to her. You’re mirroring. Instead of mirroring you have to lead. What is mirroring? see here

     Her: Good morning handsome
     Me: Good morning pretty girl
     Her: How are you doing?
     Me: Im doing fine and how are you doing?
     Her: In fine as well. What did you do last night?
     Me: I went home, and you?

     Etc. Im overdoing it to illustrate the point. Don’t mirror her. When you do so, the energy stagnates and you force her to take the lead as you’re only doing ping pong and kicking around the bush. So, again, compare

     —————————

     Her: Good morning gringo, what did you do last night?
     Me: Hey posh ;-)
     Me: I went to Las Vegas and banged 17 strippers
     Me: But I was thinking of you the whole time
     Me: I swear <3

     —————————

     This is interesting:

     "Me : … and you were the girl in the red dress.
     Her: yes I was *smile*
     Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
     Her: Yes I was"

     First, congrats in the cold reading. The "making a statement" is a powerful reading. So what was the statement about? here is where you have to go a step ahead. If the answer is that she's looking for a husband, bring that to the surface and tease her with it. If the statement is that she's a whore, tease her for it. If what she wants to do is get all the attention of all the men/flies, call her 'honey'. So go ahead with your cold reading, and bring it to the surface, tease her.

     That as opposed to what you specifically did there, aka, asking questions that can be answered with Yes / No.

     The exception is when you are going to use her "yes" as a compliance to escalate somewhere. Example.

     Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
     Her: Yes I was
     Me: And the statement is of course – that you don't like attention ;-)

     Or

     Me: I like your statements, they look good on you ;-)

     Or

     Me: I also have a statement, guess what it is ;-)

     Or

     Me: The things girl do to find a husband. Are you really sure you're going to find him here tonight?

     Or

     Me: Too bad red is not my color

     Etc.

     You can safely do questions that are going to be answered with a 'yes', and take that mini compliance somewhere now that you have 'permission' and she's in 'yes' mode. Makes sense?

     Otherwise what you're doing is just rapport, and you know what's the deal with rapport.

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       05/05/2018 at 7:54 pm

       Overdoing it on the illustration was good as it shows me the problem with following this approach. Instinctively I can sense that it is bad when the mirroring is that long but was thinking that just saying ‘good morning’ back would of been ok but it isnt. I have noted this.

       On the red dress comment, she really did stand out from the crowd and was looking very different from all the other girls. I would think definitely looking for high-end boyfriend / husband. Seeing multiple examples is allowing me to see the type of thread I need to weave.

       On the Polish girl her response was:
       “I was too tired, especially, that I came from [country]. I landed about [later afternoon]. and after that I came to the drinks. Maybe next time. BTW thanks for “posh girl” ;)”

       Credit goes to Flat Lander for posh girl :)
       I wasnt sure if she would get the reference but it hit the mark.

       Looking at her response, she is explaining herself as predicted by yohami. Instinct says not to say anything here as it would be chasing because of the ‘maybe next time’. I also dont see anything to reward as she is just giving excuses unless something is build on the ‘maybe next time’ or the ‘BTW thanks for posh girl’.

       On separate girl (not related to above), I was within a group which then morphed into 2 girls and 4 guys (me included). I was leading the conversation in the group and had established myself ahead of the other guys and the two girls likes me but I likes one over the other. The one I liked was very shy and wasnt saying much in the conversation so my focus moved to other people in the group (following Yohami GAME THE GROUP). The discussion was ongoing but I could sense something off from the guys – like excessive male attention from other guys to the girls. This triggered my instinct to not be associated with them and I excused myself (really to the girls) and moved to another group leaving the girls to the guys (ie. not my problem). Later I tried to find the girl I liked in the group but couldnt find her.

       Following the previous posts, I did find her via online platform under ‘people going’ and sent single message on 3 lines (wanted to try yohami breakdown).

       Me : Hey shy girl ;)
       Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
       Me : You should of stayed a bit longer
       Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!

       The )) is hers which I interpret as smilies. My understanding was:

       Line 1: The ‘shy girl’ was really thinking on the nickname and she was very shy and I had nothing else to go on.
       Line 2: This is based on the energy of the group she was in (spiralling downwards) and also that I went else where to find something better. As I liked her, I was looking to find her and bring her into better and more fun group (had more girls). The time between leaving group and coming back was 1.5 hours so no wonder she may have decided to leave the bar.
       Line 3: This was to be congruent with line 2 and also to push the spike that she missed out on more fun group because she left.

       In general, I am again surprised that she responded as I wasnt waiting for anything back given the low level of interaction I had with her. The above message response feels different from the polish girl response and that she wants me to respond back.
       Responding to the ‘way you make a compliment’ and explaining it (…well you were shy…) feels like a bottom guy move but she has the smilies which could just be me noticing her. Responding to the ‘should of been faster yesterday eve!’ may be the better bet but how to respond to this. I can see she used the exclamation mark for emphasis. If I am outcome independent then I would say something about the group nearby being more interesting.

       Any prospective guidance on this? Silence doesnt seem right here as it would be punishment where I need to reward for her responding to me.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         05/05/2018 at 8:29 pm

         “I was too tired, especially, that I came from [country]. I landed about [later afternoon]. and after that I came to the drinks. Maybe next time. BTW thanks for “posh girl” ;)”

         Interesting.

         “I also dont see anything to reward”

         On the contrary – you passed down judgement, and she started justifying herself, plus ‘maybe next time’ to your passing judgement that she should have come, then she thanks you, and winks.

         There’s PLENTY to reward here. Send this immediately, as soon as you can

         Me: you’re welcome ;-)

         ————————————

         In short, she pinged you on her own, then you switched frame to top guy, and she switched frame to bottom girl. She’s offering you pussy. But first you have to punctuate what just happened and REWARD her behavior, or it’s gone.

         After you say “you’re welcome” it’s your turn to take the lead.

         What you have to do now is initiate a new round of rapport, very brief, and use it to ramp it, and breaking rapport with a call to action. Example:

         Her: blah blah blah (qualify myself) blah blah thanks for the posh girl ;)
         Me: You’re welcome ;-)

         Me: So how are you liking [country], found anything worth moving here?\
         Her: oh blah blah I like this I don’t like that
         Me: Well [pass down judgement in a harsh or witty way]
         Her: hahahah
         Me: You’re fun (again, reward the little cycle that just happened)

         Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out

         ————————————-

         There are a million different ways to do the above, and it’s not a model but a principle

         When you went top-guy and she went bottom girl that’s the place for you to reward.

         Then a new landscape opens

         You use that new space to ‘swing your dick’. In my example above I did an open ended value question for her to expose herself. But my end goal is to capitalize there and say something that will make her ‘hahaha’. Also note that my value question is not innocent, and has the innuendo that I AM the thing that she might have found. After she gives me her reply, and I do my next display of dominance and she goes ‘ahaha’ I reward that, and now we’re in sex territory and ask her out.

         All in 3-4 lines

         ————————————————————————————–

         To the other girl, who is really into you

         “Me : Hey shy girl ;)
         Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
         Me : You should of stayed a bit longer
         Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!”

         First – don’t send the texts like that. The rule is that when you flirt or do a call to action, stop and wait. The things that need her response are pausing points. Your initial ping is a call to action and a flirt, it demands ‘hey girl talk to me’, so after you do it, wait. So:

         Me: Hey shy girl ;-)

         [WAIT]

         Her: blah blah

         Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
         Me : You should of stayed a bit longer

         * * *

         Otherwise, see what happened? her response is she addressing the flirt you did, but ignoring what you stacked afterwards. So you’re creating a wall for yourself for moving ahead of the pace.

         You are leading the pace. That means you set the direction and WAIT for her to follow, before you keep escalation. Don’t make all the moves at once. Make a move, and wait. When she follows your lead, reward. Like I decribed above with posh girl.

         Anyway, she really wants to be banged:

         “Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!”

         She’s telling you you could have fucked her yesterday if you had been faster. She’s not shy: you’re slow.

         Again.

         She’s not shy, you’re slow.

         She was open for you and you didn’t move.

         And she’s still open for you.

         ACT.

         Both girls want you to fuck them. The difference is that this girl is less attractive right? and posh girl has a lower threshold of tolerance for bullshit. But both are open right now.

         “Responding to the ‘way you make a compliment’ and explaining it (…well you were shy…) feels like a bottom guy move but she has the smilies which could just be me noticing her. ”

         Yes, you can’t respond to “the way you make a compliment” that’s a wall, or, that’s her passing judgement down on you and if you go there you’re bottom. Also the second line “you should have been faster” is again pushing down, but it’s also an opening: she was YES if you had been faster, or so she says. SO here’s what I’d reply

         Me: well if you like it fast… ;-)
         Me: I thought we had more time

         Note how I bypassed the shit, turned her ‘fast’ into sexual innuendo, and then brought it down to earth to an ‘intimate’ roleplay where she and I have ‘time’ like we’re in a relationship. After these two lines, because that’s a heavy flirt, WAIT, she’l predictably come with a

         Her: hahaha
         Her: blah blah

         Then the same shit as in the other case – mini rapport, break rapport, ask her out.

         As close as a model it is, without being one.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/09/2018 at 6:40 pm

           There has been no response and given it has been a few days, likely nothing going to come through … could be for 1000s of reasons but doesnt matter if she doesnt come back.

           The more I replay the messages in my head, the more I think that the direct “sexual response” may have been a bit too strong. I have had experience before were making direct sexual inuendo up front has caused the girl to go silent but it could of been for multiple reasons.

           Looking at the responses I gave, I am wondering if the wording could of been adjusted to:
           Me : hahahaha … well if you like it fast ;)
           Me : (i thought we had more time …)

           I think the above is a bit “softer” on the sexual inuendo with the hahahaha at the beginning making it seem more playful while still having all the components. Moving the … to the 2nd line and adding brackets around the 2nd line splits the threads. The above seems more natural to continuing a playful flirty conversation.

           Any thoughts on this?

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             05/09/2018 at 6:43 pm

             It wasn’t too strong, it was just a tease and she was blunt about you being too slow in approaching her.

             She’s probably busy fucking one of the guys who did talk to her that night

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:53 pm

               She is pretty but I dont think it would of been any of the guys at the bar. It looked like she was surrounded by a “group of chihuahua trying to hump her leg”.

               She could of left to another bar and something happened then but doesnt matter at this point.

           • YOHAMI says:

             05/09/2018 at 6:44 pm

             But you softening of the lines is fine – would be fine for a girl who’s the bubbly kind

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:59 pm

               I get the “feel” for how my responses should be like from your suggested responses but the component missing here is likely “calibration” where you are just reading what I write whereas I have had a few minutes in person interaction.

               In social setting, this girl didnt speak much and really did come across as shy which is why I have it in my mind that softening would of perhaps continued the message exchange. Ofcourse, shy socially does not mean shy sexually.

               Either way, doesnt matter at this point but was good reference experience.

   • YOHAMI says:

     05/05/2018 at 6:49 pm

     “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

     The frame is broken here, but can be fixed. First let’s remove the girly, that’s out of context. If you are trying to communicate that you fucked someone else, adding ‘girly’ muddies the waters, so

     ——

     Me: Do you want to use your imagination? ;-)

     That’s better. The next issue is that it’s a question. Here and usually it’s more productive to tell her to do things, as opposed to ask her to do things.

     ——

     Me: Use your imagination ;-)

     Now this is a command and has enough innuendo. The line is actually good now.

     ——

     Me: Use your imagination ;-)
     Me: You should have come

     And like that it has a command, innuendo, a flirt, and passing down judgement: golden.

     Then she’ll reply blah blah blah or whatever aroused ‘hahaha’ then you ask her out

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       05/05/2018 at 9:00 pm

       Both girls are equally pretty.

       On the polish, I misread your comment and sent (two separate message):

       Me : Your welcome ;)
       Me : So tell me about [country from earlier message], anything worth moving there for?

       Only afterwards, did I understand the innuendo. On separate note, she already said why she doesnt like [country where we are in] during the drinks so it didnt trigger to me to think of using [country where we are in] again. Anyways, she just responded with (in less than 10min):

       Her: I wont be original and I will tell you exactly the same, as so far, to everyone: friendly and open people, good food, amazing weather, fashionable clothes and shoes. The only problem would be to find a good job. But I think, it is smiliar to [Other country name where I am from]?

       If I respond with a ‘yes, it is similar to [country where I am from]’ then I am building rapport here which could move me backwards. Talking about her finding ‘a good job’ is not my problem therefore ignore this. If I am going to be ‘judgemental’ then it would have to be on the ‘fashionable clothes and shoes’ part of her response to get the ‘hahahaha’. I expect I would need to say something like:

       Me : Fashionable clothes and shoes !! … this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.

       ————

       For other girl, I will send:

       Me: well if you like it fast… ;)
       Me: I thought we had more time

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         05/05/2018 at 9:35 pm

         Hah man. Yeah missed the innuendo. You went for actual rapport and she gave you boring rapport back. But she’s still following your lead.

         “Anyways, she just responded with (in less than 10min)”

         She’s in full compliance.

         I don’t understand if she moved to the country you’re in now, or is moving somewhere else? anyway. From her response, tease her:

         Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing
         Me: That or get a rich hubby
         Me: I would propose but I don’t believe in marriage

         She will ‘hahah’ to this.

         And, do you see the thread. I took the information she gave me, she likes clothing plus she dresses to stand out, her fear is not getting a job etc. That’s the starting point and looks like rapport, but has a little inch of tease / neg on it.

         The second line roleplays that she’s a gold digger

         The third line implies that you like her, then a bolder statement that separates you from beta chode, you could propose but you don’t believe in marriage, so you’re rejecting her, sort of.

         That’s the rollercoaster.

         Because her response was boring I opted to ‘create my own opportunity’ here. Try.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           05/05/2018 at 9:54 pm

           You can wink at the first line, makes the tease more explicit

           Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing ;-)

           That line works on it’s own so you could even wait for her to react to that tease before doing the next two lines

           So

           Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing ;-)

           Her: haha (blah blah)

           Me: Yeah I can tell – either a ceo of a bank or you’re going to need a rich husband

           Her: haha blah blah

           Me: I would propose but I don’t believe in marriage

           Her: haha blah blah

           Me: Anyway, when are you free? l’ll take you out

           Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/05/2018 at 10:01 pm

           Your post and my message crossed time – didnt know if you would provide guidance today and the following was sent (two messages):

           Me : Fashionable clothes and shoes !! … this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.
           Me : Also you going to need REALLY good job to afford luxury style.
           Either that or rich husband – I would propose but I dont believe in marriage.

           The time between messages was 6min – no response yet.

           The above is starting to clutter things but still seem ‘decent’. My rationale / understanding of the lines:
           “Fashionable clothes and shoes !!” – Here I am being judgemental and also a bit ‘harser’ by using exclamation marks.
           “this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.” – Here I am somewhat making a stereotype of her but also to show that I am not taking her seriously. Also focusing on her external expression using her clothes which certainly has something there.
           “Also you going to need REALLY good job to afford luxury style.
           Either that or rich husband – I would propose but I dont believe in marriage.
           ” – these are your lines and they still work in the same thread.

           On looking for a rich husband, there is likely some truth behind this based on how she is dressed (already mentioned) and also with the type of guys she was interacting with (guys in proper suits).

           She just responded with:
           “Fashionable clothes and shoes are apart of conditions to change a country ;) And yes, I like to get dressed well. I am not [Country we in] type of woman…”

           The clutter of too many words had her focus on something specific which caused her to ignore the stack in her response (likely as the less part to interact with). I didnt get a ‘hahahaha’ but there is a smilie which I see this as acknowledgement of the point. She is also agreeing with what I am saying – is not rapport here.

           This seems like she is checking if she has ‘ticked all the boxes’ and is now waiting for me to ask lead things forward. I would need to reward (your fun – no smilie) and ask her out (just as you expected).

           Me : Your fun
           Me : When are you free? Lets go for a drink

           Anything else before the above?

           There is about 45min more time before I need to close the chat with her for today.

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:08 pm

             Yeah – the double stack makes it a bit overgame

             That she didn’t address the most important part means that she set a WALL, so you can’t reward now

             No ‘hahah’ means you don’t call her ‘fun’. She hasn’t earned it. Time to break rapport and call to action

             —————

             Me: Anyway, Im going to bed soon
             Me: [ASK HER OUT]

             Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:08 pm

             And now she responded on the stack:

             “No, thank you, I wouldnt accept your proposal. You can believe in anything, you want to ;) A credit card and a rich husband? I guess, this is your imagination of a relationship ;)”

             The response of “Your fun ;)” seems really appropriate now (with smilie).

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:11 pm

               Yep, now you can reward it. She’s playing along fine, Im sure she’s laughing over there

           • YOHAMI says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:10 pm

             Side note, this

             “Me : When are you free? Lets go for a drink”

             Is weaker than this

             “Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out”

             Take her out / hangout etc, better frame than going for a ‘drink’

             Drink means it’s friday or saturday most likely.

             Asking her to ‘take her out’ or ‘hang out’ or ‘go out’ etc is open ended and has the possibility of you meeting on an afternoon mid week and banging her

             Don’t pre-frame yourself when it’s not needed. All you want is to fuck her.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:27 pm

               This explanation makes sense. I always saw you say “When are you free? I’ll take you out” but never understood the frame aspect of ‘I’ll take you out’.

               On the messages, I sent:

               Me : Your fun ;)
               Me : When are you free? I take you out

               Now waiting.

               Just from the posts today, I am starting to get the idea a bit more on how this should work as it is a real world (and real-time) case based on what I would say and what you would say. Feels good that I am identifying some of the yohami walls and bottom guy stuff before you comment and you confirming them. This is allowing me to see the analysis as it moves and also to see the girl responses.

               I need to let everything sink in when I am sleeping tonight but also need to breakdown how the drinks would go (ie. some general principles). From reading some of your other posts, it sounds like drinks could be as short as 15min before moving to sex location whereas in my mind 45min-1h seems more normal but again my reference experiences are not “stream lined” (for lack of better words).

               Do you have a general model / set of principles for how drinks should go?

             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:34 pm

               Yeah, actually I talk about that all the time: that’s the “arouse” her part of the equation.

               You’re there, focus on what she likes, swing around, double down, cross her boundaries, give space, just like in the text really.

               It’s not going to be 15 min unless you know what you’re doing, so for now something more like Black Dragon would do

               Focus on having a short date with no chasing but plenty of vibe and banter

               If you see the interest escalate and kiss her. If she’s into the kissing escalate more physically. If she’s open to the physicality take her straight home and bang her (that’s what could happen in 15 min, but all the other stuff needs to be into place).

               So don’t think about it in time but in ‘arousal’. Focus on what she responds (sexually) to. All you’re doing in her is sexual stimulation, from the chit chat to the texting to taking her out etc, that’s all sex. That’s also why everything that is not sex (like mundane rapport) ruins things.

               So take her our, chill, banter, vibe, and if it’s good but not boiling point, ‘break rapport’ and end the date, and bang her next time.

               And if she’s at ‘boiling point’ consumate it on the same date.

               But don’t think about it as 15 min.

10. Lucretius says:

    05/05/2018 at 11:15 pm

    Never heard of black dragon but would rather stick to principles and learn from my mistakes just as I have been here. As mentioned before, structure game caused the problem. If I burn out with a particular girl, then that is the cost of progress.

    If I think back through the past 2 weeks or so from all the posts, the principle idea is really around positioning.
    – All top guy behaviours being moves around guy moving upwards and girl moving downwards
    – All bottom guy behaviours being moves around girl moving upwards and guy moving downwards

    It is like a game of relationship chess (or succinctly ‘courtship’). While the end goal is sex and the primary objective is for the guy to reach the highest possible position and the girl to be below him. The higher the gap between the stronger the girl -> guy attraction. The ‘moves’ are all around facilitating the above.

    The flirts / call to action / judgement / teases / DHV are the moves of the guy whereas the qualifying / vacuum for response / baits are the moves of the girl. The ‘ramps’ are ‘oil’ that allow the moves to be made smoothly.

    Does the above sound right?

    On the polish, no reply yet – she likely vacuum me at the moment so is just wait.
    On the ‘shy girl’, no response – she could be busy with something else
    On the hungarian, I have to send ‘Hey ;)’ tomorrow. I really got nothing on a nickname at this point.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 6:07 am

      Dont contact them again until they ping you back

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:34 am

        The value of ‘yohami NO CHASE’ is well ingrained – no fear of breaking this rule :)

        On the polish, the reward that was used was ‘Your fun ;)’ whereas my instinct was telling me to say ‘You seem like fun’ or ‘You seem like fun ;)’. The thinking for this second approach was ‘to tell her that she is on the right path but needs to move more in that direction’. Almost like dangling validation in front of her but reserving myself as I am not ‘convinced’ that she really is fun making her ‘work more for it’.

        The above is different from ‘Your fun’ or ‘Your fun ;)’ as this is giving straight validation to the girl. I can see why this is rewarding her because she starting playing along with the teasing idea.

        Is this always the approach to take (give direct validation instead of dangling validation)?

        Connected to the above question would be the general concept of reward vs punishment.

        I have seem many of your posts where the following is reward:
        – ;)
        – Awesome
        – Excellent
        – Your fun (the above post)

        The following I have seen as punishment:
        – No response
        – Ignoring the point / disinterest
        – Judging girl negatively (ie. weirdest girl I have ever met)

        Can the concept of reward be abstracted as being any response that continues the interaction in that direction via smilie, generalised ‘good verb’ or validation to the girl?

        Similarly, can the concept of punishment be abstracted as being any response (verbal or non-verbal) that judges her or her actions negatively or shows disapproval (eg. facial expression where one eye brow briefly raised and then look away) ; or any non-response resulting in non-interaction of that point?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/06/2018 at 11:48 am

          “You seem like fun ;-)” is a tease

          “You are fun ;-)” Is a reward

          Use teases when you’re going to make her want to work for your validation.

          Use rewards when she worked to get your validation, or is in compliance, or in good behavior.

          With teases you produce ‘chaos’, with rewards you solidify the kind of interaction you want to be having.

          For example if you approach a girl and you say “You seem like fun” she will try to be a fun person to play along with the frame you just gave her. If you approach her and tell her “you’re fun” out of nowhere, that doesn’t work.

          And on othe other hand if you are already playing and roleplaying and having fun with each other, telling her “you are fun” is an indication that you like her current behavior and you want her to keep doing it. That’s her reward to repeat what’s going on at the moment. You can’t tell her “you seem like fun”, or, you can, if you plan to escalate towards something even MORE fun, or you’re going to dare her to do something extravagant, but the phrase it’s not a reward.

          Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:14 am

      Polish girl responds:

      Her: Hehe you are fun. To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available.

      At this point, it is either over (something says likely not) or there is some ‘I dont want to be your boyfriend’ type of move I need to make or some other move.

      The part of ‘Sorry, I’m not available’ is her yohami wall. If I do something along the lines of ‘I dont want to be your boyfriend’, then I am interacting her wall or trying to solve this issue where I know that I am not suppose to.

      The part of ‘Hehe you are fun’, is something I have to focus on. As the ‘Your fun’ is already the reward, I dont think the response would be to on ‘yes, I am funny like that’ type of answer but perhaps a call back to her previous response which is shown again below for reference:

      Her: No, thank you, I wouldnt accept your proposal. You can believe in anything, you want to ;) A credit card and a rich husband? I guess, this is your imagination of a relationship ;)

      Perhaps something on ‘imagination of a relationship’?

      Some guidance here would really be appreciated.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 9:22 am

        I could also try something like”

        Me : All girls like fun ;)

        The above would be referring to her comment but inuendo included. Not sure if I need to expand on the above or if the wink smilie is enough for her to get it.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 9:24 am

        Perhaps rephrase to:

        Me : All the girls like fun ;)

        Addition of ‘the’ given more pointing to innuendo.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 9:47 am

          Revision (last one before further guidance). I propose to send following (one message with two lines)

          Me : All the girl like fun ;)
          Me : Good for you that you found someone …

          The addition of the 2nd line is to push away her wall and be somewhat judgemental about her (ie. good you found a man before it too late …). Considering she had so many guy fawning over her, the point is to push her away with this and may trigger her female insecurities (ie. echo my walkout from 2 nights ago). By doing this, I also avoid her frame and maintain my ‘frame position’

          What may be lacking here is the ‘stepping stone’ onto the next interaction round. I would have to stop here (following yohami NO CHASE). If she doesnt respond to the above, then it would be until next time in person (if that happens).

          Any other action following the above response would be CHASE.

          Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 12:05 pm

      Mmm not so:

      “– All top guy behaviours being moves around guy moving upwards and girl moving downwards
      – All bottom guy behaviours being moves around girl moving upwards and guy moving downwards”

      Top and bottom guy are STATIC positions. You don’t “go up while she goes down” unless you started off from a bottom guy frame and are trying to reverse it.

      But your job as a man is to climb and be top guy all the time. So when you interact with a new girl, you’re already on top, and she’s already below you. From there on, you screen her and see if she’s worth your time, so you “go down to her” a little, and make her “go up to your level” by association, all meanwhile she tries to knock you off to see if you’re really top guy and congruent.

      So she actually goes up (towards you) and you go down (towards her) when you’re operating on top guy frame.

      While in bottom, she moves up because you move even lower, so the movement separates you, instead of bringing you closer.

      This above is also why “trying to neg her to make her closer to your level” means you’re bottom guy. Guys to use negs to bring the girl down to their level are of course below the girl.

      When you’re in top guy frame you neg to punish bad behavior, then you reward to solidify good behavior.

      When you’re in bottom guy frame, you can’t really reward as everything positive is ‘free’ since the girl is never in a behavior that is conductive to sex with you, so all is wasted.

      ——————-

      Then the thing gets more complicated when the girl is DTF because she does see value in you, and you try to court her with bottom guy behavior. This results in a frame clash where the girl sees more value in you than you see in yourself, so you ‘don’t know what is going on’, all while you introduce more barriers and make them real just because bottom guy doesn’t know what an opportunity looks like so it keeps trying to force walls, because walls is all that’s real.

      Hope any of this makes sense! cheers man

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 1:16 pm

        Reading this explains why my proposed latest responses to polish where bottom guy as I was doing a ‘neg’ to her wall for ‘not being available to me’ whereas it is the other way around where she must come to me and if not, then that her issue so i leave it

        Reply
11. Flat Lander says:

    05/06/2018 at 9:45 am

    She just told you: “I am not available [to fuck you.]”

    At the moment there’s no door in that wall.

    Interacting with her further now is accepting to be her girlfriend.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:51 am

      Could be or not be. Not sure here.
      She liked me enough to open me yesterday of her own choice after me walking out.

      It is a little difficult to believe she just wanted a ‘chat’ considering how many guys were floating around her at the bar (10+).

      So again, could be or not be – just not sure here due to lack of experience.
      But the response here (if any) could be deciding factor

      Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:58 am

      Also to consider is that silence itself would also be acceptance of her last statement.

      I dont think I can use ‘silence’ as a punishment.

      If everything is really dead, doing anything here cannot make me ‘more dead’. So the more I think about this, a response is NEEDED but what response exactly is not sure.

      I have a bit of time to respond as this is not real-time whatsapp discussion and messages flow via email form platform (ie. delayed response is normal). The response must come sometime today.

      Reply
12. Flat Lander says:

    05/06/2018 at 10:31 am

    1. You already have her response.
    2. There is no such thing as a needed response from YOU in M-F dynamics.
    3. Responding in real time is beta af. You are a busy man, she’s one of the many girls vying for your attention.
    4. I wrote “at the moment”. Stop with the “dead,” “more dead” nonsense. She reacted well to you talking to the Hungarian chick, i.e. you pulling away from her. Pulling away now, putting her on ice is much better than talking to her and giving her attention when she told you she’s not available.
    5. “Good you have found someone”: why do you care?

    I wish you were in Warsaw, so i could talk some sense into you over a beer.

    Reply
13. YOHAMI says:

    05/06/2018 at 11:19 am

    Lucretius, this would be my response, and I’ll do a breakdown in a follow up comment

    ————————

    “Her: Hehe you are fun. To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available.”

    Me: Yeah Im the best ;-)
    Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 11:38 am

      1) The girl initiated this convo because her vagina told her to. This is not a chat you initiated, she did

      2) You teased her and set the frame and she complied all the way

      3) Her line “hehe you are fun” she is parroting your same line back to you, aka, she is MIRRORING you.

      So when she tells you “sorry Im not available” that carries the same weight as when a girl tells you “we’re not having sex tonight”. It means nothing, this is something that can be just brushed aside.

      On the other hand, this line

      “Sorry, Im not available”

      Is a HARD wall. This is hard, raw rejection. That phrase should kill whatever intent you had of banging her. She’s giving that wall to bottom guy. Even if it’s a tease, it’s real. This is a filter that separates the men from the herd.

      The reason she’s giving you that wall is she DID see bottom guy in you. And she screens for higher value men, so there’s your wall.

      That thing you felt that made you want to write these responses is the bottom guy being squeezed:

      “Me : All the girl like fun ;)”

      Talking about a ‘third thing’ is beta rapport stuff, you’d have to either turn it about yourself, or turn it about her, or make it about the two of you. To make it about yourself I’d be “yeah Im such a comedian” (which is fine but not here since she’s also bringing you down, you can’t do self deprecating jokes. Could also say “Yeah girls love my humor” o “Yeah I’ve heard that before”, or “Glad that you like it” etc, in a normal context. But here she ramped into a wall.

      She used the little validation to make you crash into a wall harder.

      Make who crash? bottom guy.

      And here’s your bottom guy:

      “Me : Good for you that you found someone …”

      Yeah really. You feel GOOD that she found someone right? because you care. So much. So its SO GOOD that she’s rejecting you, she found THE ONE!

      Hah.

      Don’t believe anything a girl says. Even if she had found Justin Bieber she’d drop him to trade him for Leonardo Dicaprio or whatever. The only thing shat she’s saying here is she’s not available to fuck you.

      So you have to address THAT without investing more, without improving the offer, and without chasing.

      Flat Lander says “silence” and that would be a proper response for another context. My first gut reaction was to write back “Sure” and let it be, but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU. She came to ping you and ask you stuff, so she wants to fuck, and the wall is not fully real.

      ———————-

      So that’s the context. Read it like this

      Her: Hehe you are fun
      Me: Yeah Im the best ;-)

      Her: To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available
      Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

      ————————–

      This is an instance of passing the wall back to her. When she contacts you back, then she is ‘lonely’ and wants the dick. It may happen in an hour, or a week, or ten years, but the fact is this girl will feel ‘lonely’ at many points, and this little chat from you will itch.

      To reiterate

      Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

      Is, as long as you’re concerned, your final, last message to her, ever. Unless she flips this herself, which she likely will.

      And “when you’re lonely” has an inch of put down. See:

      Im the best – you’re lonely.

      Focus there

      ————————–

      The next time you’re in a bar and she’s around, talk to her for two minutes or less, tease her, mess her up, and pick a better looking girl. Be the one breaking rapport, and not the one next to her waiting your turn to talk to her while other guys come and go.

      Even if you don’t get this girl, the principle that you ‘don’t chase’ will affect everything else you do (and improve your odds). I may write more on that later.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/06/2018 at 11:42 am

        “Me : Good for you that you found someone …

        The addition of the 2nd line is to push away her wall and be somewhat ”

        That line makes the wall real, it doesn’t push it away.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 12:17 pm

          It appears that I had a “hammer” (response of push wall away) and was looking for a “nail” (wall to push away).

          Noted to future responses

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/07/2018 at 3:56 pm

            No response from Polish girl but the “yohami WALL REPACKAGE + RETURN” seems to have had its effect.

            While no response, she did check my profile again online. Likely next interaction will be in person.

            Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/06/2018 at 12:18 pm

        “Flat Lander says “silence” and that would be a proper response for another context. My first gut reaction was to write back “Sure” and let it be, but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU.”

        Not necessarily silence, but pulling back hard from the interaction.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 12:47 pm

        For this:

        “3) Her line “hehe you are fun” she is parroting your same line back to you, aka, she is MIRRORING you.”

        This I did observe after you talking about mirroring earlier (good morning, good morining, etc). I understand this as she was now following me.

        For “Sorry, Im not available”, the part that I did not interpret correctly was the ‘sorry’ being at a new sentence followed by a comma and then ‘not available’ which tells me she thinks I am looking at her as girlfriend material.

        What helps me understand her messages is where you have split her two messages and are responding separately although in a single message. I need to keep this in mind when multiple points come in the same message.

        For the line “Me : All the girl like fun ;)” I was trying to create innuendo which would have written as “Me: All the girls like me ;)” but now in retrospect it seem very strange to write this. An attempt at connecting her to me although this doesnt work thinking more about it. In other words, I was trying to continue on her ‘hahaha’ point but this appears not the way to do it.

        As the yohami response is “Yeah, I’m the best ;)”, it sounds as though when the girl says a positive trait about me, I would need to be narcissist in my reply (keeping it about either me or her and not a 3rd abstract party).

        I think in the last two messages when I asked her out, her response was showing a change in the frame in myself psychologically. So something is going on when I am just starting a conversation (detached) and then becoming more concerned the more it progresses (hence inadvertent bottom guy in my last responses).

        “She used the little validation to make you crash into a wall harder.”
        I didnt see it as a trap but after reading it again, I can see it as a trap (ie. to get bottom guy to invest in the walls).

        “but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU”
        This context is driving the frame of the complete interaction and everything would need to be re-evaluated against this. She did ping me first and knowing that I went out, she wanted to know what happened. This sets the direction of the discussion (she made right choice? does guy give girl another chance? Or does guy turn and chase girl?)

        After some discussion, I am again asking her out. Here she sets the ‘trap’ (validation ramp
        with yohami wall). My initial reaction is to try to push away (hence my suggested responses) but the correct response is to follow the initial frame / context of the interaction and take the validation ramp and leave her behind (as she not coming along) but not shut out.

        Bottom guy takes a few more nicks and bleeds a bit more.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 12:14 pm

        “The next time you’re in a bar and she’s around, talk to her for two minutes or less, tease her, mess her up, and pick a better looking girl.”

        If I understand this right, “mess her up” would be to push her boundaries. It sounds like teasing as I am sure that she does not get teased a lot given her looks. But you list “mess her up” separately from “teasing”. Can you give an example?

        Assuming this followup interaction goes as expected, in maintaining [NO CHASE] I would have to wait for her to come find me? What if the scenario is that she gives me eyes at a distance and is inviting me to go back into discussion / interaction with her?

        Do I go back (feels incorrect if I am the prize) or do I motion to her to join me (feels better)?
        If I motion for her to join me and she doesnt move, I would have to just leave it at that point as if I go to her, I am “rewarding her saying no to come to me”.

        Am i seeing it right?

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 12:42 pm

          You sexy beast strolling up to her with a smirk: “Hey, it looks like you’re stalking me (accuse her). Can’t a guy have a peaceful drink without posh girls throwing themselves at him, Jeez!”
          Posh girl. “Wha-what? No..”
          Sexy beast: “That’s ok, I understand. Have fun, stalker!”

          Then go and talk to a hot girl, cool guys, flirt with the waitresses and ignore her until she reinitiates.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/11/2018 at 12:58 pm

            Perfectly valid

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:47 pm

            I can see this working. The individual wording may be changed but the point is made.

            It would also allow for new nickname which could open a new thread / element to the interaction.

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              05/11/2018 at 4:20 pm

              No, you change a single word, it won’t work lolozolzozloz

              Seriously now, you need to see the intent behind the words. What would a cheeky bastard do to a girl that hasn’t hopped on his dick yet? How would he treat her? Like the annoying sister of his best friend, like a cute time waster,

              Also, “stalker” is good to tease her, but way too strong as a regular nickname. It’s about placing her in various concepts, frames and see what gets her going.

              Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 1:01 pm

          What the girl does in the dance is putting herself in situations where you can make a move, and then giving you hints that she’ll be ok with you escalating. That means it’s not her job to come to you and initiate conversation, even if she’s fully DTF.

          So when she gives you ‘that look’ you go and talk to her.

          You can start this by initiating eye contact as well.

          This thing where she ‘chases’ doesn’t mean that your job is to run around and play difficult. You’re not supposed to be unattainable – what you’re supposed to is to be banging other girls so she’s in a cue list, and you won’t tolerate bad stuff because you can do better.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:44 pm

            So if a girl gives me a signal (look, smile, head nod, raised drink glass, etc) I must move to her at all times. If I dont move to her, I am effectively saying ‘no’ to her.

            It is kinda strange as my instinct feeling are reversed but again this would still be bottom guy instinct (ie. you didnt like me last time so I gone). Slowly being reversed.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/11/2018 at 3:19 pm

              Close.

              In principle: yes. If you act whenever there’s an opening, and as quickly as possible, and as boldly and confident as possible, ESCALATING, you’ll see a huge improvement here.

              You will find that a number of girls are tuned into this and use it as bait to reject you, example they will act in a seductive and inviting manner, just to reject you when you act on it. For now you can stay away from these but the principle is:

              You mus ACT when there’s an opening, but it must be one of your OWN.

              You can’t just ‘do specifically what the girl is prompting you to do’ because that means you’re following.

              And part of what the girls will prompt you to do is jump from a rooftop if you let them.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 3:39 pm

                “If you act whenever there’s an opening, and as quickly as possible, and as boldly and confident as possible, ESCALATING, you’ll see a huge improvement here.”

                I was not doing this the last time because I was waiting ‘for my turn to talk’ and it caused issues (already discussed). Next time, I will press ahead.

                —

                “You will find that a number of girls are tuned into this and use it as bait to reject you, example they will act in a seductive and inviting manner, just to reject you when you act on it. For now you can stay away from these”

                Me trying to figure out who these girls are is going to be difficult (at this stage). It did remind me of another girl who came to me being all nice and opening the discussion but it was because she wanted to play a practical joke (some silly bet she made with someone else). I saw through it and turned it around.

                Are you referring to this type of behaviour?

                We still chat from time to time (on good terms but I am not interested in her).

                —

                “You must ACT when there’s an opening, but it must be one of your OWN. You can’t just ‘do specifically what the girl is prompting you to do’ because that means you’re following.”

                Intellectually, this makes sense but contextually, I have difficulty in turning it into action. Are not all openings by the girls to say ‘please do something / continue’?

                —

                “And part of what the girls will prompt you to do is jump from a rooftop if you let them.”

                This part I did not understand. I can understand if she is trying to work out if she can make me do anything (eg. get a drink, fetch me this, hold my glass, hold my jacket). Are you referring to this?

                I dont do any of this for girls (ie. dont buy them drinks, dont hold their stuff, etc). If I am one-to-one with a girl already at new location, I may do some of these things if it is incidental.

14. Lucretius says:

    05/06/2018 at 12:57 pm

    On the hungarian girl, I sent “Hey ;)” via whatsapp.

    Lets see what happens here. Issue would be if she just says “hey” back and nothing else.
    If this happens, my gut says to make a call back to the bar as something to continue the interaction. At the bar she decided to stay with the bottom guy talking her ear off (crowd was also thinning out) and I decided to go.

    Something like:

    Me : Hey ;)
    Her: Hi

    Me : Did you stay much longer?
    Me : I went off to [other bar] and had fun. You should of come.

    If she gives me something to work with, will post but the conversation may move a bit faster as its whatsapp.

    She may ask about the polish girl …

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 6:45 pm

      And after vaccuum from her side for 6 hours she said “hi” with nothing else.

      Suggestions?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:05 pm

        If this a third girl? if so what you had on mind can work

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 8:14 pm

          yes, is the third girl.

          She gave the minimum for continuing. I send exactly as I proposed above.
          Now is just wait and see but I am not thinking much will occur here.

          I likely got her number because I was talking with the polish and I was also introduced to her by another girl (much older – mid 40s – but me and her clicked in a social non-sexual way) than this girl (likely late 20s).

          My main sticking point from my last sets of inperson interactions is that I have it in my head that I need to speak with the girl alone before doing roleplay but can do everything else just fine in the group. The focus for the next time is to just ignore everyone else around me and roleplay directly with her. To be clear, I am not talking about ignoring the group but not feeling constrained by the group in moving between group interaction and girl interaction (like I was 2 nights ago).

          It is again a frame problem I need to resolve.

          Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:09 pm

        Basic “slice of life” text and photo.
        You did cool stuff during the May Bank holiday, didn’t you?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 8:19 pm

          Previously, I would of done something like this which is Krauser ‘Window On My World’ and this would move the discussion forward but it is slanted very much in the direction of asexual rapport and while the girl will keep talking, it isnt moving closer towards sex and likely putting me in the ‘cheap validation for her’ box (or whatsapp buddy)

          I am trying to break the mold on this and trying to continue the interaction from the bar onto text and then back to a bar. During the text interaction, I could probably insert text + photo of “slice of life” if I can find a relevant way to make it about her and me or to tease her somehow.

          I need to try a few things out a number of time to see where the direction is going and the reactions the girl gives me.

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/06/2018 at 10:04 pm

            Text is mainly for logistics, not for continuing a sexualized interaction started in meatspace.

            1. Ping with slice of life (DHV) or a call back to interaction. This is providing her with emotions, which lead to sex. Writing “Hi” is weak unless you are Bieber.
            2. If the the DHV and leading arouse her (Yohami keeps on hammering that point, because that is the only thing that matters), take her out..
            3. If not, pull back and disengage until she re-engages.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/07/2018 at 6:21 am

              Probably some mis-explanation on my words. Not trying to maintain prolonged conversation via text.

              For your points:
              1. I am using call back because it connects her and me. If I DHV / slice of life on opening it would come across as something random and be a third thing and this could put me as ‘friend’. I have used this before but it is just filling up lines.
              2. This is the idea to get 2-3 ‘hahahaha’ based on he responses and then to get her out again.
              3. This is the yohami NO CHASE will be implemented by default unless she comes back.

              Reply
15. YOHAMI says:

    05/07/2018 at 9:07 am

    Check Peterson’s explanation about ‘ruff and tumble play’ that fathers do

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF4PS6sVn3w

    Or: testing the boundaries in a playful manner to see where they are. You find the boundaries, stomp a little over them right on the verge when laughing turns into tears, then step back.

    That’s the ‘manly’ way to find boundaries and is what male on male teasing looks like as well.

    Translated to courtship: that’s also the manly, or top-guy way to dealing with female shit testing and exploration. When she throws shit or exposes her own boundaries, your job is to also go there and mess her up, do ‘ruff and tumble play’ with her, sweep her off her feet, cross her boundaries and find the sweet spot between laughing and crying, and set strong boundaries, all while both of you have ‘fun’.

    This is how bottom guy fails because as soon as he finds a boundary (a wall) he steps back and then smashes against it, or takes it at face value.

    Also how ‘nice guys’ fail because they would never ever do anything in the world that would possibly cross the girls boundaries – so they will just follow the girl and make sure she’s comfortable at all points.

    In contrast, the manly top-guy dude is a ‘challenge’ in that the girl will expose her vulnerabiltities, desires, boundaries, laundry lists and the guy will just mess with that at will and take her to unexpected places, all in the name of fun, and under his rules, but still ‘respecting’ her true self, finding the right spots to rub, and making her come. All in under less time than the nice guy would dare to ask her out.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/07/2018 at 4:03 pm

      This makes sense to me as it would invoke emotions when boundaries are being “pressed / pushed” but not too far that “indignation” turns to “negative feelings”. It sounds as thought the ‘ruff and tumble play’ would be from teasing or passing judgement (casual, offhand or specific) on a particular aspect of a girl to generate these emotions.

      Also, just the act of willing to go there will make distinction between top guy vs bottom guy (nice/boring/friend type of guy).

      Reply
16. Lucretius says:

    05/07/2018 at 4:36 pm

    The concepts of yohami are really starting to become more visible in my interactions.

    Today while on the metro, a girl sat in front of me. Took a while but I opened with “Is this the new spring outfit for girls in 2018 in [city name]?”. She didnt hear it so I repeated and added “It is a running joke I have in my mind that the girls always dress a similar way with just one or two pieces being different, then I looked at you and was wondering if the fashion changed”. She was smiling and laughing here while I was talking (ie. seem to hit the arousal spot – she was just dressed like a student). There was a bit of blah blah blah and then the conversation switched to what she was doing and she said she was going to consulate to resolve papers because she got wrong papers and was abroad (in south america) “illegally” (she had tourist via instead of student visa). As she was talking here about this, the “illegal” part is what was causing her face to light up (another arousal spot). I tried to stay on this by playing on the word illegal / legal between me and her (I travel around for work) but eventually energy came down. There was more blah blah blah (she mentioned her boyfriend once in the middle but I ignored) but what was interesting was that she was filling in the gaps I was leaving asking me questions and when metro approaching my stop, things went like this:

    *two metro stops away after travelling question*
    Her: So you have kids?
    Me : No, I am perpetually single but not alone.

    Her: *she says something and I interpret that she didnt understand*
    Me : You can read in between the lines

    Me : some blah blah
    Her: some blah blah

    *one metro stop away from my stop*
    Her: *fiddling with her phone looking at it*
    Me : I would like to continue this and get to know you more (Conscious pause)

    Her: *still fiddling with her phone looking at it – 5 sec already passed*. like later?
    Me : yes, a coffee or drink or something (Conscious pause)

    Her: *still fiddling with her phone looking at it – 2-3 sec pass*. Sure
    Me : Let me take your number. *I take out my phone and wait*

    5 seconds had passed and she took my phone and put her number in and added herself as a contact (without me asking). I gave her a “man woman handshake” and gave my name and that I would text. I then walked out.

    The point of the above is really to backup what yohami has been saying about when he breaks down Tim (fuckboy) interaction in this post: http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/tyo-making-japanese-mormon-virgin/#comment-3878

    For ease of reference, lets term this “yohami STATE+WAIT” where the girl must respond before things can move forward.

    This was a similar reaction to what the polish did where I waited and SHE moved things forward again. Before I would just try everything in one line and sometimes work but most times her response is “I got a boyfriend”.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/07/2018 at 5:27 pm

      Good stuff.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/07/2018 at 6:57 pm

        The more I think about this, the more I think it has todo with a ‘girl reflex’ response.

        I imagine that girls are approached by guys with such regularity that they are already so good at categorizing the guy into a particular box because of his actions or verbals (likely on very little information). If the actions + verbals are aligned with bottom guy, the girl brain will quickly use the bottom guy label and eventually cut the interaction.

        But if that pattern of behaviour is interrupted such that it doesnt appear to follow ‘bottom guy’ then that part of the brain that detects things out of the ordinary must come online and then the girl starts to evaluate the guy again (as you said yohami, with game after game after game) trying to confirm what type of guy he is – perhaps trying to resolve cognitive dissonance?

        This is likely why the ‘yohami STATE+WAIT’ would have an effect because it breaks the bottom guy pattern template. This echoes some of your previous comments where just being ‘less bottom guy’ raises the odds but doesnt make one ‘top guy’ and by converse, doing ‘top guy’ while also doing ‘bottom guy’ doesnt make one ‘top guy’ because there is still ‘bottom guy’ in the mix.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/07/2018 at 9:02 pm

          Yeah but get a little deeper, or closer.

          The reason you like attractive girls is because they are fertile. Boobs are good for breastfeeding, good skin means good health, wide hips means kids can come out easy. However you’re not “thinking” about any of this when you see a girl you like.

          The attraction happens before you are able to think.

          ——————-

          Girls are attracted not jut to physicality but also to behavior. They are attracted to both the man who is physically dominant and shows strength and good genes, AS WELL to the natural behaviors that come from men who are high on the hierarchy.

          So

          ——————

          The reason the [WAIT] ‘works’ is because this is how men who are top in the hierarchy communicate. What are they waiting for? that the girl will play along and say yes.

          When you WAIT what you’re doing is letting the girl say yes.

          When you DONT WAIT then you’re stacking because you think the girl will say no so you keep trying to improve the offer or manipulate her. The stacking and no pause means you’re trying to fill a gap. This means the girl needs to pause herself and get distance and look at you from the far to understand where you’re coming from.

          Again, laser focus:

          You stack lines because you’re trying to get the girl.

          Top guy doesn’t “TRY” to get the girl. He takes the girl. How? by stating his intention, and specting the girl to play along.

          This is what in Game is mentioned as “assuming attraction”

          But when bottom guy you’re trying to “create attraction” because you assume you have no value, so you have to “create it”

          Top guy says “hi” and smiles expects the girl to play along and drop her panties.

          Bottom guy says “hi, I saw you and thought I wanted to talk to you and you have a nice dress is that seasonal or how do you combine that with this hey don’t run away!”

          Bottom guy is dealing with rejection and trying to overcome it.

          Top guy is pinging her desire.

          ————————————————-

          But this is not what the girl is thinking about at all. It’s more simple.

          When you talk like a top guy talks, the girl reacts like girls react when they interact with top guy. Which means they drop their panties.

          Just like what happens in you when you interact with a super hot girl, you get a boner.

          There’s no defense.

          ————————————————–

          Some comments

          “I imagine that girls are approached by guys with such regularity”

          Yes but has nothing to do with this. Get a girl who has never seen a man and she reacts in the same exact way. This is biology and is hard wired.

          “the girl brain will quickly use the bottom guy label and eventually cut the interaction.”

          Yep, but it happens in their emotions. They fit you in a category and then that’s ‘true forever’ because they feel that way about you, right there.

          And they have no control over their feelings.

          “trying to confirm what type of guy he is – perhaps trying to resolve cognitive dissonance?”

          Yes – they are carrying two stories, at all times (and this never ends), in one you’re “the one” and in the other “you’re a piece of shit”, or, in one you’re “in” and in the other you’re “out”. Both endings are always valid and she’ll try to make you fit in either all the time, forever.

          The ending where you’re are out is you as a bottom guy.

          The ending where you are in is you as a top guy.

          This above is why women can’t ever lead: half their drive is to ‘ruin things’

          Also why you can’t let a girl lead you in the courtship. Half her clues are to kick you out of the tribe.

          But because the ‘bad ending’ is for bottom guy and the ‘good ending’ for top guy, all you have to do is channel the top guy yourself and be that, then from there handle the moment by moment in the relationship.

          When you’re rewarding / punishing / storytelling what you are is channeling the good ending and kicking away or nullifying the bad ending.

          And because bottom guy can only deal with rejection it can create complicated narratives on how to get the girl DESPITE she trying to push him away. Which is nonsense.

          Just ping her desire

          heh.

          “Just”

          “would have an effect because it breaks the bottom guy pattern template.”

          It’s not that it breaks the bottom guy template.

          Command – obedience IS the template of Top Guy frame. So waiting for her to follow is how the proper script was written. You’re not supposed to stack and chase and caramel and negotiate and beg and compensate to fuck the girl.

          “doesnt make one ‘top guy’”

          How not?

          If you have a plain jane girl and she hits the gim, gets boobs, loses the belly, goes to the hairdresser etc and looks like a 10

          When you deal with her, is she a 10 or not?

          AKA

          If you talk like a top guy, then you’re a top guy while talking.

          Then if you act like a bottom guy, then you’re bottom guy in that other area.

          Your job is to get rid of the crap and channel the gold.

          You don’t necessarily have to be ‘top guy’ 100% to have sex with a girl. Just like a girl doesn’t have to be a ‘perfect ten’ to be attractive.

          Once you’re pass the threshold you’re set, and it’s only win and profits from there.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/07/2018 at 9:19 pm

            Imagine you’re talking to 10 girls at the same time, you say “who want’s pizza”

            Then one by one they start responding. You’ll reply to each one in the order they respond, right?

            After you’ve talked to all of them and maybe had pizza with half of them already, when you’re bored, maybe you’ll ping a girl who didn’t reply. And say “yo?”

            ————-

            The “wait” is the natural behavior when you’re spinning plates. The time it takes the girl to reply is filled by other girls who were quicker and they get whatever you were offering first.

            If the girl doesn’t take the offer, the offer is gone.

            When you flirt or do a call to action or ask anything from the girl, all the time when she hasn’t responded, that’s a “wall”. That means she’s not in compliance, hasn’t aligned yet to receive what you want and / or is not receptive at the moment.

            Insisting on anything when she’s not receptive means you don’t have other more receptive girls.

            Therefore the behavior is incompatible with top guy.

            Therefore she will rise a wall to your follow up and stacking.

            To which you’ll likely reveal your bottom guy frame by then dealing with that wall further.

            ———————–

            You can try this –

            Go to the street and stand and tell a stranger girl “hey you, come here and kiss me”

            And wait.

            There’s even video of this somewhere.

            Top guy doesn’t chase dude.

            Chase is death.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/07/2018 at 9:35 pm

              On this item:

              “If the girl doesn’t take the offer, the offer is gone.”

              Given the hungarian case scenario from earlier (she hasnt responded to the ‘stack’). I am in ‘yohami NO CHASE’ indefinitely via text but what happens if I see her again and she starts interacting with me and saying ‘hi’.

              Should I punish her for her previous no text response?
              or
              Continue the interaction in person like the texts never happened?

              She could restart the interaction because she may see me interacting with another girl. The question would be from the perspective of reward / punishment of her silence.

              The polish is a different case because of the context (she message me).

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/08/2018 at 4:38 am

                When you see her in person continue as in the texts never happened. But do talk to a girl prettier than her. Even better if you also bang the other girls.

17. Lucretius says:

    05/07/2018 at 5:00 pm

    On the point of nicknames, I think there is more to it than just being a ‘fun thing todo’ or even just being ‘judge of her’. It feels to me like the nickname is really a ‘personality caricature’ that triggers not only emotions but also imagination.

    The skill of story telling (story writing) would be applicable here in getting better at this. As example, I recall an interaction at a bar where I started talking with three american girls. One was clearly the pack leader who was being feisty with me constantly jumping in as I was talking to the other girls. A few nights later when I was re-telling the same story to another girl of what happened, I didnt remember the american girls names so I called the leader of the pack as ‘the Rottweiler’ while telling my story.

    ” blah blah and of the three girls, the rottweiler would just not stop talking and kept jumping in always barking her opinion and wanting to drink more beer while everyone else had enough to drink. blah blah blah.”

    The girl I was telling the story to, kept laughing everytime I said ‘rottweiler’ because she is imagining in the theater of her mind an actual rottweiler doing these things. Just giving a girls name or girl category (the bossy american) just wont have the same effect.

    When interacting with a specific girl and the guy is giving a direct nickname to the girl, I think it would accentuate all the real + imagined characteristics of the nickname when the girl hears it (subconsciously she would be trying to exude these characteristics).

    This is what was seen with the polish girl when the opener was ‘Hey Posh girl ;)’ – credit again to Flat Lander. So I think that when speaking to the girl, we need to be constantly scanning the girls personality to find an appropriate nickname and then indirectly use it in conversation with her to make the connection in later conversation or during the initial texts.

    Any other opinions on this?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/07/2018 at 5:31 pm

      You got it.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 12:22 pm

        On the girl from the metro, I opened with:

        Me : Hey tropics girl ;)

        She saw the message soon after sending it but has not replied back (I deleted number) – again many possible reasons (eg. she could of gotten bad news at consulate on her papers, or just changed her mind, or the nickname ‘tropics girl’ she didnt like, etc).

        The key lesson here for me is that unless I got a solid nickname that is on HER PERSONALITY and I have been able to USE IT IN CONVERSATION, it is best to keep the opener generic such as:

        Me : Hey ;)

        It seems like all these little tweaks here and there really change the direction of everything.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 12:32 pm

          It means she doesn’t want your dick. Or, you’re getting blown out by the girls via text, it means you need better real life presence, so focus there. You can start by taking the same principles from the text game into real life.

          Ask this

          Why would tropics girl want to fuck you?

          What is in it for her?

          These questions above are not destined to discourage you but the opposite. What is the angle? what is the door she’s giving you? what is she saying YES to? what is stimulating her?

          Once you’re able to ‘ping’ her desire, all these nuances in game or text game become less important. She has to want to dance.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:09 pm

            No worries on the various questions you pose or worrying about my feeling / discouragement. Just keep saying as you are saying and I will eventually figure it out.

            If I think back to tropics girl, it must of been the difference at points in life.
            I was dressed for office work (suit + tie) whereas she was student outfit.
            The only angle I can think of here would of been that I was projecting ‘successful guy’ and perhaps she wanted a part of that.

            For clarity, I am not talking ‘k-selection’ or something along those lines.

            In retrospect, I could of probably pinged more her desire to see more of the world (I have quite a bit of travel experience) and could of played this up some more and perhaps added a story of one of the places I had been to. I do recall mentioning travel (common topic) but didnt talk of any interesting story just that I have been to places.

            But I think you are right on this aspect that I may of just ‘grazed’ her desires instead of doubling down and focusing on it.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/11/2018 at 3:23 pm

              mmm focus

              ” I could of probably pinged more her desire to see more of the world”

              Her desire to see the world is none of your business.

              Her desire to see the world WITH YOU is what you have to focus on.

              Or how her desire to see the world makes her a good sexual partner.

              Or what it says about her and what qualities she has that make the two of you a good match.

              You’re doing sexual courtship.

              I can give some pointers if you have sample conversations

              Reply
18. rivelino says:

    05/07/2018 at 11:34 pm

    https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/993635035604570112

    Reply
19. Factory says:

    05/08/2018 at 11:24 pm

    “If it’s not obvious try to experiment with both ways – not just the phrase but the whole framing.

    Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

    Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.

    It’s night and day. But do your own research.”

    Luv it when you do this ^ Yohami – always cuts through the BS.

    The way I see it.. here is where Y-banger says to “tease” prior to escalation or another version to “ramp” into a call of action.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/09/2018 at 6:36 am

      Yes, ramp -> call to action, tease -> double down, rapport -> break rapport, flirt -> escalate. From small to big, from soft to hard, from low to high, from chaos to order.

      As opposed to the reverse structure where you start ‘hard’ or doing a call to action then ‘passing it to her’

      The only viable alternative (that I see right now) of passing it to her, is when the call to action doesn’t necessarily involve her, aka is something that is happening regardless of her, example:

      Me: Im going to the movies, wanna come?
      Me: Im ordering mexican, wanna join?

      Me: [this is happening without you] [you can jump in]

      Reply
20. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 6:30 am

    This is important so I’ll set it apart

    This is about FRAME and not specific words

    ——————————————————————

    1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp
    2) Do the call to action

    Instead of:

    1) Call to action / State intent
    2) Ask her if she’s going to play

    ——————————————————————

    Tease / Call to action: you invest when she showed compliance. So you’re creating the opportunity and then doubling down. If you ping but don’t wait for her reply and do a call to action that implicitly assumes she will play along, this is ‘top guy’ frame to the core

    Call to action / Question: You invested before she showed compliance and then asked for compliance, so, your cards are on the table before there was an opportunity and now ask for an opportunity to match your desire, and instead of assuming she will play along asks for her voluntary participation

    Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 7:03 am

      “2) Ask her if she’s going to play”

      Ask her **WHEN** is she going to play!!!

      We are not talking about Tindersluts you’ve never met who are being bombarded with multiple offers and you have to somehow dramatically stand out! We are talking about a woman you already had a nontrivial one-on-one face-to-face interaction in social setting/on the street.

      Ya feel me? It’s context, not frame, because the appropriate frame is also context dependent.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 7:20 am

        “It’s context, not frame”

        Im talking about frame. Depending on context many other things will come in to factor. If this is a girl who’s into you and you’ve already set a pace, this can be plenty:

        —————————-

        Me: I want to see you

        Or:

        Me: Do you have time this week?

        Or even:

        Me: sup

        ——————————

        “We are not talking about Tindersluts you’ve never met who are being bombarded with multiple offers and you have to somehow dramatically stand out! ”

        Since when are we not talking about Tindersluts?

        “We are talking about a woman you already had a nontrivial one-on-one face-to-face interaction in social setting/on the street.”

        She’s also a tinderslut.

        And you still need to be leading, and you still need to be coming off from the right frame for all the other things to fall into place

        But you already saw how ending with a question is passing the power to her.

        Focus there.

        Frame.

        Reply
        • arr123 says:

          05/09/2018 at 9:37 am

          Context

          You chose “top guy” frame as your archetypical deity based on the context of your life — your mother, your father, your family, your culture. Different contexts will ask for different gods/archtypes/frames — or at least not insist on universal predominant application of yours as much as you do.

          Not all women are tindersluts and the ones who respond positively to game are less likely to be such. Stats 101.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/09/2018 at 11:04 am

            Nope, you’re wrong.

            Reply
            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:21 am

              Says who?

              Reply
              • arr123 says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:29 am

                In what context have you come up with you map?

                In a context of travellers through BA, in the context of CS, in the context of on-line game. You specifically avoided local girls [CRAZY!!!] without even realizing that what you’ve learnt no longer translates to locals in other countries either.

                I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value dick offerings all the times. That makes them much more receptive to my game when approached face-to-face.

                You reil against daygame but fail to notice that in the pool of on-line canditates, you prospects are WAY, WAY, WAY worse. You must be at the VERY bottom of social hierarchy to even use Tinder regularly.

                Wrong. Wrong. Limited YouR [sic].

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:33 am

                Says your own perception if you get out the way and look outside.

                “Different contexts will ask for different gods/archtypes/frames”

                The context of the sexual courtship, as in male / female, relies on hierarchy. Females want to mate with the males at the top of the hierarchy, and the males at the top of the hierarchy incarnate the same archetype.

                “or at least not insist on universal predominant application of yours as much as you do.”

                This has nothing to do with me. Look OUTSIDE. Wake the fuck up.

                “Not all women are tindersluts”

                Madona / whore complex alert.

                “the ones who respond positively to game are less likely to be such”

                What is a woman who doesn’t respond positively to Game?

                Describe her. Does she like men?

                “You chose “top guy” frame as your archetypical deity based on the context of your life — your mother, your father, your family, your culture. ”

                No. This isn’t cultural, and is not remotely related to anything that I “chose”. Im describing what is – so you can go outside, look at what ‘is’ and describe what you see, like I do.

                Women didn’t “chose” to be attracted to “top guy”.

                And you didn’t chose to be attracted to chocolate dildos either.

            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:40 am

              https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2015/08/11/my-day-2-with-alice-the-cute-italian-girl/#comment-2257:

              “you swing your dick in front of her and let her want you. When you perceive that she wants something, you give her that, escalating. She wants a kiss? you kiss her and grab her ass. She’s feeling X, you give X + 1. You take her like a storm. But she needs to want to be taken, OR everything you do only increases her barriers, pushing you farther and farther every time you “spike”.”

              from what i can tell from your writing, you feel that girls are either on or off, either they want to fuck you or they don’t, and there isn’t a “process”, an evolution to that desire, aka the comfort phase, where the girl’s sexual desire grows partially based on her emotional connection growing, and her trust in the man growing (no fear of physical harm). from what i can tell, you don’t believe in this comfort phase. you believe in the opposite, in ramping up the sexual tension until it explodes in uncontrollable desire, and you are fingering her in public.

              i think your mindset is understandable because it is shaped by your experience. didn’t you get most of your 200 lays from CS? that is one type of girl, the girl who is in a new country looking for cock. not every girl has that mindset and even if every girl *did* have that mindset, not every girl has that mindset all the time. or, to ask the question a different way, what percentage of girls use CS? or do you believe that every girl can be fucked in four or seven hours, no matter her situation, if she is single, married, horny, not horny?

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:41 am

                Read the comments

            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:43 am

              [“Not all women are tindersluts”

              Madona / whore complex alert.]

              Don’t be a fucking idiot and ignore the

              “I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value [on-line] dick offerings all the times.”

              There is a world of difference between a SLUT and a TINDERSLUT/COCK SURFER that you seem to be COMPLETELY oblivious to…

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:47 am

                “Don’t be a fucking idiot”

                Sasha?

                “I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value [on-line] dick offerings all the times.”

                Are they willing to have sex before marriage?

              • arr123 says:

                05/09/2018 at 1:07 pm

                “Sasha?”

                Who?

                “Are they willing to have sex before marriage?”

                Yes. I’m in mLTR with two such women at the moment.
                One of them is moving to my city to live with me.
                Sex on tap, zero competition.

21. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 6:38 am

    Arr12,

    “the lead is already warm, moist, and waiting for me”

    If she’s already DTF it doesn’t matter what you say. Send a pic of your dead cat and it’ll work.

    Reply
22. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 1:41 pm

    Arr123,

    [Are they willing to have sex before marriage?]

    “Yes.”

    They are sluts then.

    “I’m in mLTR with two such women at the moment.”

    Super sluts.

    “One of them is moving to my city to live with me.”

    The things they do for cock.

    “Sex on tap, zero competition.”

    Get ready for the nesting phase.

    So the next question is: do they react well to your Game? do they follow your lead? are you leading them, or are they leading you? who wears the pants? are you submissive to them, or are they submissive to you?

    Cough.

    Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 3:10 pm

      > They are sluts then.

      Maybe. But they certainly aren’t tindersluts. Different context, different rules, different games.

      > Super sluts.

      Madonna-slut complex alert!

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 3:16 pm

        “Maybe. But they certainly aren’t tindersluts. Different context, different rules, different games.”

        Are you dominant or submissive with them?

        “Madonna-slut complex alert!”

        There are no madonnas. “Tinderslut” is your confusion by thinking that this is measured by the which mediums you use. So are your girls reacting to Game or not?

        Reply
        • arr123 says:

          05/09/2018 at 3:24 pm

          “Are you dominant or submissive with them?”

          Neither. I’ve tried lots of dominance and found lons of resistance. A mix of unbrindled passion, mutual growth and inspiration – sprinkled with tiny bits of dominance – works for me.

          “There are no madonnas.”

          There are no top guys.

          ““Tinderslut” is your confusion by thinking that this is measured by the which mediums you use.”

          Medium is the message.

          “So are your girls reacting to Game or not?”

          There is no Game. Only games. And yours sucks!

          Reply
          • arr123 says:

            05/09/2018 at 3:32 pm

            “Dude.”

            I’m not your dude.

            “Cheers.”

            Suck – not suckS!

            Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 3:38 pm

      Dominance is the deadlift of playboy game. But it’s not the whole GAME. Especially if you are martial artists and not a gym rat.

      Reply
      • arr123 says:

        05/09/2018 at 4:03 pm

        Getting what?

        I know/see your context/game.

        Do you feel mine?

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 6:01 pm

        It worked well on you and I didn’t even try.

        Reply
23. Lucretius says:

    05/11/2018 at 4:08 pm

    Continuing here below on tropics girl.

    It is still particular habit that when I am talking with a girl and the conversation dies down, there is always a “stack” in my head that I start to ramble through. It covers the following topics (no particular order):
    – How long you been here in [City X]?
    – How do you like it?
    – You done much travelling?
    – What is the big picture (ie. future plans)?
    – etc

    The above is a bad habit (rapport) I am moving myself away from to being more ‘freestyle’ but the point of travelling comes up and is a point for DHV where I have been travelling for a long time already and generally the girl hasnt.

    With the tropics girl, the relevant point of the discussion went something like this:

    Her : blah blah blah tourist visa blah blah
    Me : blah blah

    Me : Have you travelled much?
    Her : Not that much, only a few places *pause*. I want to see more but one i need money to travel around *makes face expression and shrugs shoulders*

    Me : Travelling is a good experience. I was lucky as I have been travelling throughout the world since being a student because I had good deal on tickets blah blah blah. I been to [country 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + etc]. What places have you wanted to go to?
    Her : Dont know *pause*. I would not want to explore south america *pause*.

    — End of segment —

    In retrospect, writing the above out, I can see multiple issues in where I went wrong. While I am showing DHV from my travels, I am missing many things:
    – I have not connected her and me together (ie. there is no roleplay – eg. when time allows, make time for travel. Imagine me and you at [city x] doing blah blah blah)
    – the travel discussion cannot go in many directions (if she has been to same place as me, we can talk about this but doesnt lead to much. If she hasnt been to same place, I can only mention that it is good place to go).
    – the core problem appears to be the topic of travel itself. Unless she really really wanted to travel, it doesnt seem to be a thing for me to press the conversation forward to find those ‘hahahaha’
    – there is no interesting / funny story involved in my travels or the process of travelling in my conversation. If I had talked about that one time where were cross winds on landing were so strong the plane was swinging from side to side that it felt I was on a boat in the high seas being sailed by a drunken sea captain blah blah or that time when the plane seats were oversold and I got bumped up to business class by the pretty flight attendant with the short skirt and gifted chest. How good it was there up in front being attended to blah blah.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:42 pm

      1. The conversation dies down? You let it die. Filling silences is beta af. If she’s attracted/aroused, she will reinitiate. If she’s bored, she’ll signal a gf to come over and save her from your boring ass

      2.These questions in the travel stack dry her vagina fast, It’s gay.

      When you have nothing cool to say, don’t talk!

      A reformulation:

      “Have you travelled much?” –> I bet you haven’t left your home town since that trip in high school. Coward!

      3. Tropics girl was so into you. (I guess you’re probably very good looking.)

      She said: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”

      This is her opening up, telling about her fear, dreaming of you looking into her soul.

      Next time, instead of:

      “Travelling is a good experience… and more verbose beta shit.”

      you should say (before she opens up)

      “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home, because the world is a dangerous place…(pause)

      Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”

      Bingo! She’s tingling.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 4:53 pm

        “1. The conversation dies down? You let it die. Filling silences is beta af. If she’s attracted/aroused, she will reinitiate. If she’s bored, she’ll signal a gf to come over and save her from your boring ass”

        This is normally during daytime when I am going to / coming from the office so there is no one else. Before I was always jumping in with this or that to avoid silence. With tropics girl, I wasnt thinking of silences or filling in but wanted to avoid a “conversation stack” – she was filling in the silences asking me questions.

        I likely need to have reach a “point” where she is animated enough from the discussion and had 1-2 “hahahahaha” moments before just keeping quiet and letting her jump in.

        Generally speaking, various points of my interactions are improving over time – just not all seamless and in all the right areas as of yet.

        —

        “Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
        This is her opening up, telling about her fear, dreaming of you looking into her soul.”

        This is something interesting for me to keep in mind. If she has some ‘fear’ on a particular area to play with that in a teasing way like you said here:

        “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home, because the world is a dangerous place…(pause)”

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 5:03 pm

          No, you lead her to that place of vulnerability. Once she opens, you reward her. For the love of god, don’t punish her for that.

          You: “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home…”
          Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
          You, Oh…now you are showing some sense, young lady. I like that.”

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 7:42 pm

            “You: “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home…”
            Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
            You, Oh…now you are showing some sense, young lady. I like that.””

            This part does not make sense to me. it feels like it is going for rapport.
            Why would she be showing some sense? Why would I be rewarding her in this aspect telling me where she wont go?

            My gut instinct would be todo something like:

            Her : I wold not want to explore south america *pause*
            Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?

            Your answer does not feel like it can go anywhere further (unless I am giving reasons on south america) whereas the answer I am proposing would involve her further with her giving me more information (conversation branches) to work with.

            The aim from my side would be to looking for things where she ‘lights up’ or shows some kind of emotion response (positive or negative from her memory) and move from there. I would need the emotion to get her to remember the interaction more vividly but obviously I dont want to “imprint” the interaction with a negative emotion so I would have to guide the conversation if it turns negative back to positive.

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              05/11/2018 at 8:33 pm

              You set the frame and the rule (e.g. cute girls shouldn’t travel).

              She expresses compliance with your rule (I’m scared of South America!).

              You reward her with your approval. (Good, reasonable girl)

              Her compliance gets you closer to your D in her V.

              From there, you snip that thread and ask if she’s always so well behaved/if she’s a rebel.

              (Translation: are you up for adventure sex?)

              You’re trying to establish an emotional connection, not learning about the movies she’s watched.

              Conversational branches are important if you place yourself in the position of an entertainer (bottom guy).

              After you reach attraction, she needs to start coming up with topics.and entertain you, i.e. start chasing you.

              Finally, girls need negative emotions. As long as she experiences (safe) fear, outrage, dread in your presence, you’re getting closer to the bang.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/11/2018 at 8:55 pm

                Flat lander on point.

                Lucretious,

                “Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?”

                What are you trying to get at by saying that line?

                Or, what is the response you’re trying to get, where are you going?

                When Flatlander says the line ‘travel is for men’ what he’s doing is channeling basic male / female dynamics. Now she can play along or contest that, both are winning scenarios.

                The other Flatlander line he calls her ‘coward’ and is a tease, all this is what Im referring to ‘mess her up’. You find what her boundaries are by stomping on them, gently or not, and her responses will tell you what she ‘responds to’ sexually, all while elevating the temperature.

                So back to you

                “Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?”

                That’s you passing judgement… but not completely – you’re blaming hollywood so you’re inferring that she’s hooked up on movies? she’s gullible?

                If your line is that she’s gullible, you’d be better making that point

                Me: Don’t tell me you’re one of these gullible girls who think there are pirates in the caribbean

                Or

                Me: Yeah you strike me as a disney princess

                There Im making it about HER, giving her roles to PLAY along, or contest.

                —————-

                Her response there was also she playing along to Flatlander’s idea that traveling is for men. When she plays along and says she’s a stay home girl, it means she played along and you’re the man, and she the girl, so you reward that.

                She could also have said that she’s soo adventurous and likes to travel. That’s she contesting it but also playing along: then you can roleplay that you’re traveling or where you’re going or what is going to happen next, it’s “lets have adventure [sex] time”

                Me: You can’t catch up with me

                or

                Me: Let’s do [Adventure X]

                Or

                Me: Are you down for adventure?

                etc.

                It’s all games. She played along, which is why Flatlander rewards her, and what would follow is escalation.

                You lead, she offers compliance, you reward, then escalate.

                And yeah none of this is about doing beta rapport and showing interest. You’re pinging her desire, escalating, iterating.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 9:11 pm

                I understand the concept you are putting forward although it doesnt feel right in the way you are saying I should approach this.

                From what yohami mentioned in some post (perhaps other thread), the girl will make her initial first impression in seconds based on multiple non-verbals and so she has determined if she if attracted to me or not within the first 30 seconds – assuming she does ‘hahahahaha’ in that time frame. After that, it is something for me to strengthen or lose depending on what I say + do afterwards.

                The above is matching up with my experiences from the past where the reaction is really good upfront and then weakens / dissolves by the end. At no point am I ‘building attraction’ in the process. My mistakes before were around ‘moving through a process’ to get to ask for her number (discussed already many times on this thread)

                “She expresses compliance with your rule (I’m scared of South America!).
                You reward her with your approval. (Good, reasonable girl)”

                I am not following what you mean by the rule. I havent set any rule for her to comply to. Perhaps some misunderstanding here.

                I should be rewarding behaviour I like and punishing behaviour I dont like. I do understand compliance hoops but I think it is via actions (lets move over there, pass me that, hold this for me, comes to me, etc) and not compliance on verbals.

                “From there, you snip that thread and ask if she’s always so well behaved/if she’s a rebel.”

                This also does not seem like fluid conversation. I should only snip the thread if it is going the wrong way.

                On being an angle / rebel, I would likely tease it out of her when she was talking about “illegally being in south america”. Some play on this could likely get it out and me making a casual statement that she is a rebel. If there is no verbal comeback on this or she grins / smiles, then it is confirmed without me having to overtly ask it of her.

                “You’re trying to establish an emotional connection, not learning about the movies she’s watched.

                Conversational branches are important if you place yourself in the position of an entertainer (bottom guy).”

                You definitely misinterpreted what I wrote and I am certainly not any girl’s entertainer.
                The point of saying ‘snakes and hollywood movies’ was a “gambit” to move the discussion forward giving me conversation options to find something that ‘hahaha’ / lights her up. Have no interest in what movies a girl watches.

                “After you reach attraction, she needs to start coming up with topics.and entertain you, i.e. start chasing you.”

                Girls are not very imaginative as they always come up with the same boring chit chat topics – just like tropical girl did. There is no way that a girl is going to try to entertain me but she will try to keep the conversation going just like she did in filling in the gaps. Her filling in the gaps is her chasing giving me the opportunity to keep the discussion ongoing.

                Problem from my side on tropical girl, was that I started strong and then the conversation weakened whereas I should of kept following the conversation branches and ‘double down’ on when she was ‘hahahaha’ and ‘face lit up’.

                This is what I understand yohami saying that my ‘in person presence was not strong enough’ and he is right on the money here as I replay my 12-15min interaction with her.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 9:30 pm

                @yohami

                “Or, what is the response you’re trying to get, where are you going?”

                When I asked about where she would like to travel to, she gave me the “not south america” answer. My proposed answer there was to find out why she gives a place where she would NOT. if I could find the reason why, there may be something else to work with. The normal response would be to list a country or a region (eg. asia, europe, etc).

                Flat lander put his initial hypothetical question before her real answer and then another hypothetical response afterwards. This would change the context and really put her (little girl) as ‘being scared to travel’ and then could have been played around with.

    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:52 pm

      One note about freestyling:

      Freestyling is good when you are in control of your art. Krauser can freestyle. I can’t. You can’t either.

      A rigid, linear structure will kill your vibe.

      What you need in an interaction is to check a few bullet points (she stops her movement and gives you her attention, she hooks and invests (asks a question), she reacts to a tease, she laughs, she qualifies herself, etc)

      It doesn’t matter much when these boxes are checked, but they need to be checked, otherwise she was just being polite to a cute bottom guy.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 5:05 pm

        “What you need in an interaction is to check a few bullet points (she stops her movement and gives you her attention, she hooks and invests (asks a question), she reacts to a tease, she laughs, she qualifies herself, etc)”

        Here I disagree for me personally.

        Krauser was the one who gave me a structure (from his books) and while this took away the element of the unknown, it created a problem where I always have the structure and try to stick to it. The checkbox idea is something that I had in my mind but it caused me to try to fit the “square peg in the round hole” during the conversation. Every time I had tried this (try to get her to ask me a question, try to get her to qualify herself, etc) , it didnt work out because it comes artificial from me.

        I think I mentioned it before, in a 100% social + non-sexual situation, I can just go on and on jumping from this to that to something else. The moment I start to “care” or look for a particular outcome with a girl, it goes all wrong.

        For me, it is really just ‘no structure’ but looking for a “conversation branch” to jump on and to keep playing with that from point to point and improving how a particular ‘mini-game’ is handled during the conversation.

        I can assess these points (is she asking questions, is she laughing, etc) during or after the interaction. I still dont have “bullet time” in my interactions but this is only going to come from more interactions and then dissecting everything and formulate alternatives / getting opinions on this and that for the next time, then repeat process.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 5:29 pm

          It’s not about bullet time.

          It’s about leading the conversation within your frame(work).

          You don’t try to tick a particular checkbox, but you act, talk, move so that she has the space to get into a flirty conversation and progress in her arousal.

          Do you have a wing who could observe you as you pick up the girls?

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 7:45 pm

            No wing as I am not doing ‘daygame’ per say. I am just going on about my day to day and there are pretty girls at the metro from time to time.

            Other times, I am at a bar with other expats and conversations go from there.

            Would not want a wing for anything (unless is a girl) because the guy would likely be a social liability more than anything else. This is just my personal opinion.

            Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:56 pm

      “pretty flight attendant with the short skirt and gifted chest”

      This is so gay. Top men don’t brag about girls they didn’t fuck. They don’t brag about girls they fucked either.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/11/2018 at 8:57 pm

      Yep this is death

      “Me : Travelling is a good experience. I was lucky as I have been travelling throughout the world since being a student because I had good deal on tickets blah blah blah. I been to [country 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + etc]. What places have you wanted to go to?”

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/11/2018 at 9:09 pm

        Fixing that nonsense, simulating real time chit chat from:

        Remembering some 2 min conversation with some girl on a bus

        Me: So you’re a traveler uh?
        She: Yes
        Me: What kind, cheap or posh?
        She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap
        Me: That’s fine (reward for playing along
        Me: Have you been to brazil?
        Me: I was there in the summer
        She: no.. (I note lack of interest, so I switch)
        Me: I spent a couple months there partying then I went to a retirement in the amazonas
        Me: We stayed in this huuuge presidential house. At night there’s no electricity around so you can feel the forest and see all the sky and every little star. So we were making a fire and it went off and It thought fuck we’re in the middle of nowhere and we’re all going to die here
        She: Thats sooo dramatic! (very happy and invested girl)
        Me: It was amazing
        Me: I’ll take you next time ;-)
        Me: So what’s up with you
        She: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
        Me: Oh yeah
        She: blah blah blah
        Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
        She: Nope!
        Me: Because you’re cheap
        She: (punches, happy)
        Me: Cheap and weak. You need more protein. Ouch
        Me: Now Im not going to take you
        She: You’re mean
        Me: Sometimes ;-)
        Me: So let’s meet on on thursday? I’ll take you to X
        She: Not sure if I can on thursday
        Me: Well ping me when you know
        She: What’s your number?
        Me: 1xx201
        Me: There
        She: mine 1xc001
        Me: That’s why you can’t afford travel you spent all your money on that phone
        She: hahahaa

        Etc

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:37 pm

          This is really nice to read … I can see many of the concepts incorporated in here.
          Reading it just sounds like a fun chat with you teasing the girl while using previous information from earlier.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:02 am

          “Me: So you’re a traveler uh?
          She: Yes
          Me: What kind, cheap or posh?
          She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap”

          This block is very good for me to see because it changes the way in which I can ‘open’ a conversation. I have always read that one should open with a statement instead of a question but if I forget everything I have read, the above makes perfect rational sense. Let’s say that the girl responded as below:

          Me : So you’re a traveler uh?
          Her : Yes
          Me : What kind, cheap or posh?
          Her : hahaha … I like to fly in style
          Me : Good girl for liking the finer things in life

          Would the above work? I am rewarding her by saying ‘good girl’ with some extra words for the sentence to make conversational sense.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:15 am

          “Me: Have you been to brazil?
          Me: I was there in the summer”

          Your explanation of above and calling it “seeking rapport and then immediately breaking rapport” helps me understand your various other posts in what you mean by breaking rapport.

          In my mind, this is simplified to [question + statement].
          If I was just asking [question] for information / opinion, then it would be rapport.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:21 am

          On this block:

          ”
          Me : Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
          Her : Nope!
          Me : Because you’re cheap
          Her : (punches, happy)”

          Is there a reasons for arranging the words as:

          Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X? (statement + question)

          instead of:

          Me: Have you done X? It’s because you haven’t done X (question + statement)

          Would the first line be ‘judge’ and then posting question; whereas the second line would be ‘rapport + breaking rapport’?

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 4:44 pm

          “Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
          She: Nope!

          She’s in. I can take her now, but I’ll escalate here”

          How do you know that “she is in” at this point? I am not seeing any clear point that determines this.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 9:23 pm

        Noted

        Approach is to just take an individual place and spin a story on it as opposed to just listing places and why I was able to visit such places.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:43 pm

          There are a millon things happening there

          “Me: So you’re a traveler uh?”

          Its a challenge, Im not validating her

          “She: Yes”

          Low invest response, so I switch to judge her

          “Me: What kind, cheap or posh?”

          Will she play along?

          “She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap”

          She plays along – note the ‘hahaha’ means she likes this. Now this will be a punctuation. I found an angle, I’ll look for more and come back to this one as we go

          “Me: That’s fine”

          Reward for playing along

          “Me: Have you been to brazil?”

          I take on the travel angle guessing that she’s been in brazil or likes beaches, so I ask the question

          “Me: I was there in the summer”

          Before she even starts talking, I break the rapport and state that I was there. So Im doing rapport and breaking it at the same time

          “She: no.. ”

          I note that she’s not into the brazil thing a bit, so now I guess she’s not the sunny shiny superficial girl. What else does she like? partying? drama? darkness? I’ll swing my dick and see what clicks

          “Me: I spent a couple months there partying then I went to a retirement in the amazonas”

          Me saying that I spent two months partying in a place that she just showed me she has no interest on is me saying ‘fuck your preferences’ and ‘this is my story’ but it’s short. I inject that I partied there, for two months. What kind of guy parties for two months in brazil? a loser or a winner? guess what’s my framing. But then I go to a retirement – Im moving the story to a deeper place to see if she resonates

          “Me: We stayed in this huuuge presidential house. At night there’s no electricity around so you can feel the forest and see all the sky and every little star. So we were making a fire and it went off and It thought fuck we’re in the middle of nowhere and we’re all going to die here”

          While Im telling this (true) story, her eyes open more and more and she’s captivated, so I do some rounds on it. Note how I stayed on a ‘presidential home’ and ‘we’ were making fire so Im also showing her Im not a loner but a social guy who goes to places with people

          “She: Thats sooo dramatic! ”

          She was loving it. So she likes deeper stories and drama. I’ll use this later as well. We’ve got

          1) Likes monetary / posh judgements, likely wants a lifestyle bigger than the one she’ve got, aka, she’s not a hippie. A hippie would have jumped into critiquing capitalism

          2) She’s not big on mainstream entertainment, doesn’t go to the beach, at least not populated ones. Responds well to drama. Likely likes to read.

          3) May or not be a party girl. So now Im guessing art / drama studies. I’ll check later. For now it’s time to reward and break rapport.

          “Me: It was amazing”

          I pass judgement on myself. Im amazing like that see.

          “Me: I’ll take you next time ;-)”

          Now this is roleplay and a call to action. She sustains my sight for a second but I perceive a little wall. She may have a boyfriend or something. She’s scrutinizing me. So I break this rapport again

          “Me: So what’s up with you”

          Dry and commanding, check “fuckboy tim” for this kind of tone, inviting to rapport. Basically Im asking her to show me her puzzle, her game

          “She: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”

          She launches on a tipically boring tirade about how hard it is to be in the city under whatever conditions

          “Me: Oh yeah”

          I keep her talking just punctuating her so she continues. She says she’s ‘bored’ which means I can be her fun (that’s why she’s telling me she’s bored)

          “She: blah blah blah”

          I have enough data and proceed to do the next game

          “Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?”

          I’ll break that boredom with some fascinating activity X

          “She: Nope!”

          She’s in. I can take her now, but I’ll escalate here

          “Me: Because you’re cheap”

          Punctuate the first hahaha. So I have a call to action, she’ll play along, now Im messing up with her a little

          “She: (punches, happy)”

          She likes it

          “Me: Cheap and weak. You need more protein. Ouch”

          I double down now judging her strength.

          So I had this little activity X that I’ll invite her in, but hey she can’t just have me like that can she. She’s got to work it a little

          “Me: Now Im not going to take you”

          Fake wall for her

          “She: You’re mean”

          She’s happy

          “Me: Sometimes ;-)”

          Sex is going to be fun. Game is over, let’s escalate with the call to action

          “Me: So let’s meet on on thursday? I’ll take you to X”

          Again I ask a question but do it as a given, I break that fake rapport with the call to action that has been building. Stating the day has a high percent chance that she’ll be busy, but that’s fine, she’ll raincheck

          “She: Not sure if I can on thursday”

          That’s a wall, no raincheck, too bad!

          “Me: Well ping me when you know”

          Note how I dont change the day? I dont rearrange, don’t offer another activity. I offer a day, she ‘doesn’t now’, well nice meeting you girl!

          “She: What’s your number?”

          She what’s she’s doing?

          “Me: 1xx201
          Me: There
          She: mine 1xc001”

          “Me: That’s why you can’t afford travel you spent all your money on that phone”

          We’re best friends now

          “She: hahahaa”

          And sex is easy

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/11/2018 at 9:49 pm

            Masterful.

            Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:45 pm

          No, no, no. It’s not about that place. It’s about the process and how it makes her happy and wet.

          Stacking (So you’re a traveler)
          Qualifying (cheap or posh)
          Rewarding
          Vibing (jungle story)
          Rapport (so what’s up) – grounding the meet in reality
          Break rapport (Because you’re cheap)
          Teasing,
          Bridge.
          Logistics and number close.

          This is the process. All the stages of the LDM are there.

          Executed effortlessly.

          Follow this to bang cute girls.

          Reply
24. Lucretius says:

    05/11/2018 at 10:00 pm

    @yohami

    Do you have another sample real-time interaction like the one on the bus?
    Anything that you can say from memory with a corresponding breakdown?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/11/2018 at 10:01 pm

      I have thousands, I’ll see if something else applies but it’s really always the same

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/12/2018 at 9:32 am

        I would expect it to be “roughly the same” all the time. It is the exposure to the conversation flow that I am looking for.

        Ironically, the above is the normal type of conversation flow (social) when I am not interested in the girl and just playing around in the conversation (minus a few points).
        Again, once I am looking for an outcome, it all falls apart again so have to adjust piece by piece rather than all at once.

        Reply
        • Robinhood says:

          05/12/2018 at 11:08 am

          Yup. Better to go one step at a time. I will post an interesting convo shortly to see how yohami sees that one..

          Reply
      • Robinhood says:

        05/12/2018 at 7:53 pm

        This is a girl i haven’t met. We attended the same course at different times. I found her in the course online group.
        After some study/work related chit chat..
        Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
        Her: ??
        Me: Place in ur pic
        Me: Looks cool
        Her: Italy
        Her: Thanks
        Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
        Her‬: Not really lol
        Me: Ahan
        Me: Come to my city in uk
        Her‬: Can’t
        Her: Lol
        Me: Dont be boring
        Her‬: Who on earth are you
        Me: Batman ?
        Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
        Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me
        Me: U seem very sensitive
        Her: I’m not sensitive
        Her: I have no idea who you are
        Her‬: And you don’t know me either
        Me: U can ask what u wana know
        Me: I like how u are so curious about me
        Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
        Me: Im awesome
        Her: Hahahaha

        Thoughts? What was done right? What could be better?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/13/2018 at 6:41 pm

          Sup man. Before I do a breakdown, take a pass at your chat above and isolate these things:

          What are the walls / what is she setting obstacles / doing barriers to?
          What are the openings / what is she reacting positively to?
          Which lines are beta rapport?
          Which lines are cocky funny?

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/13/2018 at 7:03 pm

          Let me also give it a try to see if I have learned something:

          Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
          Her: ??
          Me: Place in ur pic
          Me: Looks cool
          Her: Italy
          Her: Thanks
          Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
          Her‬: Not really lol

          The above is rapport.
          Girl has opening on travel as she said ‘lol’. Guy should focus on where she been and state place himself. Something like:

          Guy : Where have you travelled apart from Italy?
          Guy : I was at [country x] with friends recently

          The above is rapport + break rapport (yohami definition)

          Me: Come to my city in uk
          Her‬: Can’t
          Her: Lol

          Wall from girl.
          Amused that random guy asking her to travel to his place

          Me: Dont be boring
          Her‬: Who on earth are you
          Me: Batman ?

          Another barrier from girl but funny (non-bland) response from guy

          Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
          Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me

          Another barrier from girl

          Me: U seem very sensitive
          Her: I’m not sensitive

          Guy know banging head against barrier

          Her: I have no idea who you are
          Her‬: And you don’t know me either

          Barrier from girl.
          Opening from girl where she says “you dont even know me”. Response from guy should be focused on getting to know her. Something like:

          Guy : Well … we can get to know each other ;)

          Me: U can ask what u wana know
          Me: I like how u are so curious about me

          Guy banging head against barrier

          Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
          Me: Im awesome
          Her: Hahahaha

          Guy makes smart move and finds the ‘hahahaha’ (cocky fun)

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/13/2018 at 7:16 pm

            To clarify this item:

            ”
            Opening from girl where she says “you dont even know me”. Response from guy should be focused on getting to know her. Something like:

            Guy : Well … we can get to know each other ;)
            ”

            The above line may not be well received at this point given the way the conversation had been going. Guy would need to bring the conversation back to ‘lighter fun stuff’ to get more ‘hahahah’ or ‘lol’ before being able to use this line.

            Reply
          • Robinhood says:

            05/13/2018 at 7:25 pm

            Hey Lucretius. Good effort. Let yohami break it down. Lets see how right he gets it cuz i have switched girl’s response in few places. He always analyzes after he knows the whole story. I will tell where i switched girl’s responses after his breakdown. Lets see how predictable the dance is

            Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/14/2018 at 6:47 am

            How would you change the initial rapport to something that is about her?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/14/2018 at 8:03 am

              Or – how do you FLIRT instead of rapport?

              I can make a breakdown but this is a good example of why rapport is shit game

              Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/14/2018 at 4:04 pm

              I would say for rapport only:

              Guy : In your pic, what country are you visiting? Looks nice
              Girl : It is when I was in Italy.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 4:13 pm

                Revised:

                Guy : In your pic, what country are you visiting? Looks nice
                Girl : It is when I was in Italy. I always wanted to travel throughout Europe.

                Guy : You Jetsetter girl ;)
                Girl : hahahaha

            • Lucretius says:

              05/14/2018 at 4:10 pm

              For FLIRT, I would attempt the following:

              Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
              Girl : yes, it is in Venice. Was fantastic.

              Guy : Looks amazing.
              Guy : I can just imagine you and me taking a ride on the gondolas through the canals. I get to sit comfortably while you row ;)

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 4:15 pm

                Revised (change of words):

                Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
                Girl : yes, it is in Venice. Was fantastic.

                Guy : Looks amazing.
                Guy : I can just imagine you and me on the gondolas through the canals. I get to sit comfortably for the ride while you row ;)

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:13 pm

                The question is: why are you talking about italy? At all? Italy is not HER. Italy is a ‘third thing’ which you’re evaluating in a non-sexual manner.

              • Robinhood says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:25 pm

                Because she’s in italI in the picture she took. She likes that picture,that place, its a part of her. She hasn’t travelled much, maybe Italy is the only country she visited? Why she chose Italy? What did she like there? All of this can give insight into her likes/type/personality. All important information to get inside her.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:28 pm

                I see your point and from racking my brains around, I cant think of another way to start the conversation.

                Interested to see how you would start it (incl. possible variations)

                This is a major development point for me as I always start conversations with girls indirectly (ie. 3rd thing) before moving to direct (ie. girl and me).

25. YOHAMI says:

    05/14/2018 at 7:02 pm

    Robin hood’s

    I’ll break this down and then put my “fixed game” at the bottom

    “Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
    Her: ??
    Me: Place in ur pic
    Me: Looks cool
    Her: Italy
    Her: Thanks
    Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
    Her‬: Not really lol
    Me: Ahan
    Me: Come to my city in uk
    Her‬: Can’t
    Her: Lol
    Me: Dont be boring
    Her‬: Who on earth are you
    Me: Batman ?
    Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
    Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me
    Me: U seem very sensitive
    Her: I’m not sensitive
    Her: I have no idea who you are
    Her‬: And you don’t know me either
    Me: U can ask what u wana know
    Me: I like how u are so curious about me
    Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
    Me: Im awesome
    Her: Hahahaha”

    My breakdown

    “Me: Which place? Seems crazyy”

    This is shit game. Also it doesn’t make grammatical sense

    Why?

    When you ping her, make it about HER. If you already met her give her a nickname. If you don’t have a nickname, then just flirt. What is flirting?

    FLIRT: Display of nuanced sexual interest.

    So “Hey cutie” will do.

    The reason this is important is framing. You’re framing this in a man to woman relationship.

    Regardless – what will happen when you ping her, is she will go to your profile and check you out. All of the following conversation has to be seen through the lense of her attraction (or lack of thereof) towards you

    “Me: Place in ur pic
    Me: Looks cool
    Her: Italy
    Her: Thanks”

    You’re talking about a ‘third thing’ and not flirting, so you’re going for rapport, but not really.

    “Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..”

    This is ‘cold reading’ and would have work better as the opener. It’s better in that you’re talking about her. Still I don’t see where you’re going

    “Her‬: Not really lol”

    She also doesn’t know, time is ticking.

    “Me: Come to my city in uk”

    So this is a call to action. The issue is you haven’t gotten compliance, and you haven’t gotten compliance because you didn’t flirt. And the call to action is incomplete. Why do you want her to come to your city? what will you do with her there?

    “Her‬: Can’t
    Her: Lol”

    Walls and walls.

    “Me: Dont be boring”

    This is a valid neg for her wall but it’s misplaced. You haven’t offered her any ‘fun’ yet

    “Her‬: Who on earth are you
    Me: Batman ?”

    That’s brilliant

    “Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls”

    After the ‘batman’ you should have waited for her response, so you can escalate. Here you’re doubling down on the ‘neg’. But you have not offered any reason whatsoever to do anything remotely positive.

    No flirts, no arousal, no leading, and now insisting on negs: bottom guy tussle.

    “Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me”

    Walls and walls.

    “Me: U seem very sensitive”

    More negs from you. What do you want to happen?

    “Her: I’m not sensitive”

    THIS IS AN OPENING. She made it about herself. So you neg her and tell her she’s insensitive, and now she’s justifying to you. Here you can reward and tell her that good, because you prefer sensitive girls

    “Her: have no idea who you are”

    THIS IS AN OPENING.

    “Me: U can ask what u wana know”

    Ridiculously waste of time. You haven’t flirted yet.

    “Me: I like how u are so curious about me”

    She is not curious about you

    “Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?”

    See? she’s not

    “Me: Im awesome”

    THIS is good.

    “Her: Hahahaha”

    THIS IS AN OPENING

    All in all, this convo is a disaster, jumping from line to line with no thread or leadership or flirting or really, no game at all. It’s like someone cut and pasted game lines and then shuffled them, there’s ZERO chance of fucking a girl, any girl, like this.

    Let’s fix this. First, let’s assume your profile pic shows a handsome / higher value confident guy, and that her profile picture shows her in a beautiful place and she’s a gorgeous girl.

    Here’s what a similar conversation should look like.

    Me: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
    Her: Hi, thanks!
    Her: Do I know you?
    Me: No, I go to class X and was browsing around the people who take the same course
    Me: What a bunch of nerds!
    Her: hahahah
    Me: Where’s that pic? looks like barcelona
    Her: It’s Italy
    Me: Lovely
    Her: Yeah I was there last summer
    Me: You look lovely too
    Her: Thanks (blushes)
    Me: When are you around in (City X)? I’ll take you out
    Her: hahaha I have never been there
    Me: How come? it’s a great place
    Her: dunno
    Her: My friend is always going there but I haven’t found the time
    Me: Well now you’ve got a reason to come
    Me: I’ll give you a tour
    Her: Really?
    Me: My tours are famous
    Her: Maybe I should go
    Me: Yep. I’ll make your first time count ;-)
    Her: hahaha
    Me: Gotta go, I’ll ping you later
    Her: Ok. Is X your name?
    Me: No. Im batman
    Her: What?
    Me: Joke
    Her: hahahah

    And sex is easy.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/14/2018 at 7:07 pm

      Another variations if you want to triangulate with the profile picture on the initial ping

      ==================

      Find what the picture says about her, then assume what you see is true, and tease with it.

      Me: nice picture
      Me: you look like a hippie ;-)

      Me: You must be very intelligent if you’re reading a book that thick
      Her: hahaha
      Me: What’s it about?

      Me: Nice pic
      Me: You have no compassion for the people who can’t afford vacations, do you

      Makes sense?

      Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/14/2018 at 7:27 pm

      While my opener was totally off following yohami explanation, the upside I found 1 of 2 openings and all the walls.

      Let me see if I can identify what is going on in Yohami revised chat:

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
      Her: Hi, thanks!

      The above is an opening directly about HER. There is also the flirt with the Hi ;)
      There is also validation of her by guy (from the thanks!)

      Frame is direction of man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Her: Do I know you?
      Me: No, I go to class X and was browsing around the people who take the same course
      Me: What a bunch of nerds!
      Her: hahahah

      Girl is now interested in finding out who is flirting with her so she asks questions.
      Guy responds with background information (I go to class X) and explains how he found her (ie. he is not a stalker)

      Guy makes judgement remark based on peoples photo (noted approach: Observation + Judgement)
      Girl likes judgement.

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Where’s that pic? looks like barcelona
      Her: It’s Italy
      Me: Lovely
      Her: Yeah I was there last summer

      Guy makes question + statement (yohami rapport + break rapport). Also use of other city shows that guy may also travel.
      Girl responds (ie. plays along)
      Guy rewards (lovely)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: You look lovely too
      Her: Thanks (blushes)

      Guy doubles down on reward as girl is continuing down the travel thread
      Girl likes it.

      Frame is further direction of man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: When are you around in (City X)? I’ll take you out
      Her: hahaha I have never been there

      Guy makes call to action
      Girl likes the call to action from hahahaha.

      Frame is clear that this is man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: How come? it’s a great place
      Her: dunno
      Her: My friend is always going there but I haven’t found the time

      Guy makes question + statement (yohami rapport + break rapport). It is about getting her over – logistics.
      Girl starts to explain herself (feels she now needs a reason for why not). Also provides a wall for guy (havent found the time)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Well now you’ve got a reason to come
      Me: I’ll give you a tour
      Her: Really?
      Me: My tours are famous
      Her: Maybe I should go

      Guy ignores wall and gives reason for her to come – rationalisation (setup of new thread)
      Girl surprised that guy will give girl tour (since ‘hahahaha’ already established and she explaining herself, she would like it).
      Guy double down on tour (ie. giving girl an overt reason to come to city X)
      Girl now accepting overt reason

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Yep. I’ll make your first time count ;-)
      Her: hahaha

      Guy provides sexual connotations (carrying on man/woman frame).
      Girl does hahahaha (consciously / subsconsciously knows what is going on)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Gotta go, I’ll ping you later
      Her: Ok. Is X your name?
      Me: No. Im batman
      Her: What?
      Me: Joke
      Her: hahahah

      Guy gives time constraint to leave (false or true).
      Girl sufficiently interested that she wants to know who he is.
      Guy gives cocky / funny answer as joke
      Girl doesnt know
      Guy says joke
      Girl thinking what a funny guy

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/14/2018 at 7:38 pm

        Yep

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/14/2018 at 7:41 pm

          Thank you for confirming the breakdown.

          Having seen two of them, I am starting to get an initial feel for how the conversations should be going.

          Do you have any other chats (good + bad) that I can try my hand at breaking down? Or even if you put up some ‘puzzles’ for readers to solve with what direction things should take.

          Overall, i need to get working through these type of ‘exercises’ to get the vibe / feel for how the conversation should be going.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/15/2018 at 4:57 am

            There’s another post not long ago with hundreds of comments and I made a few breakdowns there. Im likely going to write a book / set a blog for this kind of stuff ‘soon’

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/15/2018 at 5:59 am

              If you referring to BlueValentine text discussions, I already been through all of those (virign mormon thread). Those are the dissecting what is wrong in his text discussions. What I am looking for is the specific points and how they should be approached. Let me think on this for a few hours and make a specific post on it later today.

              Likely see the polish this weekend, so trying to see if I can get the conversation ‘style’ more practiced before then so ‘I am not a robot’.

              Thanks again for all the help thus far.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/15/2018 at 6:08 am

                There’s one with some breakdowns and ‘fixed chats’ like I did above for Pancake mouse and other guys, not sure which message thread was that in though

                And no problem – writing this stuff down helps me too so it’s win win

      • Robinhood says:

        05/15/2018 at 6:17 am

        @yohami..
        Reopened her with..
        Me: Hey insensitive girl
        Her: Lol
        Me: i like the scenery in this photo.. and ur fluffy hair ?
        Her: LOLL
        My hair is wavy not fluffy
        And it’s from the salt in the sea

        Any idea how to go about it from here? This one seems keen but needs to be lead properly.

        In the last chat i just switched one response at the end. She didn’t respond hahhaa go my I’m aaesawe text. After an hour she replied who told u that. 40 minutes after that.. ‘exactly i didn’t think u had an answer for that. I replied after about 8 hours at night.. ‘Geez. Learn some patience’. She sent ??? next day.

        Reply
        • Robinhood says:

          05/15/2018 at 8:12 am

          Continued..

          Her: LOLL
          My hair is wavy not fluffy
          And it’s from the salt in the sea
          Me: they look lovely
          Her: Thank you
          Me: How did u like it at course?
          Her: Did you finish your exams ?
          Me: Yea I’m done with everything
          Her: it was good
          Her: what do you think?
          Me: Most of the people there are so lame and nerdy ?
          Her: why do you think that?
          Me: Most are just into books. No fun
          Me: Although i found some fun people
          Me: sent her a picture of me having some fun with friends there

          I think she didn’t like my judgement on the course students. Why? Does it lead her to believe i didn’t have a good time there?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/16/2018 at 6:41 am

            It always surprises me how girls endure bad game – that’s how much they crave it!

            ======================

            “Me: Hey insensitive girl”

            Good one

            The main thing here, is WHY ARE YOU CONTACTING HER?

            Because you want to fuck her, right?

            So you have to frame this as man to woman, flirt, arouse her, escalate, and take her out.

            So after you sed “hey insensitive girl” your roadmap should be “blah blah swing swing ping ping” arouse her, then when she’s in compliance you “let’s do activity X” and escalate things to meet.

            Instead you’re asking a bunch of nonsense

            “Me: i like the scenery in this photo.. and ur fluffy hair ?”

            No one gives a fuck about your judgement of a ‘third thing’ unless it speaks of your value as a man

            The fluffy hair, is that a flirt, or a neg? are you trying to arouse her, or piss her off? both are valid but you need to know which one it is, and it needs to be overt

            “Her: LOLL”

            Do you see how ANYTHING that you do pointing at HER has a strong reaction? all things that address her are openings.

            “My hair is wavy not fluffy
            And it’s from the salt in the sea”

            She thought it was a neg, so she validates herself to you. This is good.

            “Me: they look lovely
            Her: Thank you”

            There, that’s better

            So what are you doing?

            “Me: How did u like it at course?”

            Why do you care if she liked it at the course? how are you going to tie this in to take her out?

            “Her: Did you finish your exams ?
            Me: Yea I’m done with everything
            Her: it was good
            Her: what do you think?”

            See? rapport bullshit

            “Me: Most of the people here are so lame and nerdy ?”

            Passing judgement – this is fine. The exception would be if this girl is also ‘nerdy’ in which case you are negging her here. What is the case?

            “Her: why do you think that?”

            WHO THE FUCK CARES where are you going with this man :-) she also doesn’t care, she’s just doing rapport. But here you could escalate and do a story that shows how you are not boring and why she should be with you

            “Me: Most are just into books. No fun
            Me: Although i found some fun people
            Me: sent her a picture of me having some fun with friends there”

            That kind of does it. A better thing would be a story, catered to her.

            If she a party girl? then:

            Me: I organized an escape to Las Vegas and most got too drunk and passed out, they have no backbone!

            If she a nerdy girl? then:

            Me: We went to the planetarium and a bunch of them fell aslept – my groups was full of accountants!

            Whatever.

            Ping, arouse, get compliance / arousal, escalate, take her out

            Reply
            • Robinhood says:

              05/16/2018 at 1:54 pm

              Hey. Search my name in this post, left few responses for you but they just came out of moderation.

              Scenery is not a third thing. Its related to her. Its in her photo she put up, and scenery is right in front of her fucking eyes.

              I care about her opinion about the course as that will give me insight into her personality and help me to bang her.
              And its a ramp to pass my judgement on the course, whether she liked it or not. If she liked it, my judgement will be messing with her boundaries.

              And she says why do you think that as opposed to your prediction earlier that she will laugh and aroused by this judgement lol

              And how do you plan to find out if shes nerdy or a part girl without going for rapport?

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 5:57 pm

                Yes the scenery is a ‘third thing’, it’s not her

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 5:59 pm

                “And how do you plan to find out if shes nerdy or a part girl without going for rapport?”

                Everything a girl does with her appearance and says out loud and subcommunicates is a BROADCAST of both what type of girl she is, and what kind of men she finds attractive.

                Google “nerdy girl” and then “party girl”, see if there’s much overlap

            • Robinhood says:

              05/16/2018 at 2:53 pm

              Continued convo..
              In response to my photo she says..

              Her‬: I’ve never seen you around
              Me: U should have looked harder for me (u missed all the fun girl. But she doesn’t respond to this swing. She wants comfort and rapport)
              Me: I was there in month and then in month
              Her: I was there end of month too
              Me: Show urself. Maybe i have seen u
              Her‬: Show myself?
              Me: Yea send me ur photo
              Her‬: Why on earth would I do that
              Me: Dont be shy (putting her in a box/cold read)
              Her‬: Ew
              ‬ I’m not
              ‬ I don’t know you
              Me: So ur a bold girl
              Her‬: Why
              Me: U said you are not shy lol
              Her‬: If I knew you ya
              But I don’t :) (Opening for this girl is rapport and comfort. She wants to know me to fuck me)
              Me: Of course u do
              Her‬: How
              Her‬: asks me something about my job
              Me: Im name. We went to same course around same time. Thats fate ? (giving her the feel of knowing me by highlighting commonalities and messing with her some with that fate bit)
              Me: Yea i have done job stuff she asked
              Her‬: Yeah and hundreds of other people went to the same course also
              Her‬: Lol (she likes the ridiculousness of it)
              Her‬: Did you get a job?
              Me: And how many of them u talk to ? (our connection is special ;)
              Her‬: Talk to as friends?
              Me: Nope
              Me: As man to woman
              Her‬: None (at this point my instinct was to hammer it down with ‘exactly’ but i thought she got the point. Give her some comfort stuff so she can rationalize she knows me.
              Me: Yea i got a job in city
              Me: Sorting some paperwork about it
              Her: That’s nice congratulations
              Which company?
              Her‬: And what department?

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/16/2018 at 4:38 pm

                @yohami
                Let me try to break this down similar to before and see where things stand:

                [~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Her‬: I’ve never seen you around
                Me: U should have looked harder for me (u missed all the fun girl. But she doesn’t respond to this swing. She wants comfort and rapport)
                Me: I was there in month and then in month
                Her: I was there end of month too

                Girl puts up wall / trap for guy to respond to
                Guy falls in trap and starts to explain himself and state all the points where guy was present but girl could not see (in hopes to strike a memory?)
                Girl just going along to close trap.

                Guy could of switched to something humours to break the trap and go into new new direction.

                [~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Show urself. Maybe i have seen u
                Her‬: Show myself?
                Me: Yea send me ur photo
                Her‬: Why on earth would I do that
                Me: Dont be shy (putting her in a box/cold read)
                Her‬: Ew
                ‬ I’m not
                ‬ I don’t know you

                Guy demanding action. Girl thinks WTF?! No compliance from girl.
                Guy now forced to followup (photo) and makes another demand. Girl puts up wall – Still no compliance from girl.
                Guy triples down on request (banging head against wall). Girl starting to have second thoughts (ew) about continuing discussion.

                Difficult to see recovery here. Girl not knowing guy does not seem like OPENING given conversation thread thus far. Seems more like WALL / OPENING depending on next exchange.

                [~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: So ur a bold girl
                Her‬: Why
                Me: U said you are not shy lol
                Her‬: If I knew you ya
                But I don’t :) (Opening for this girl is rapport and comfort. She wants to know me to fuck me)
                Me: Of course u do
                Her‬: How
                Her‬: asks me something about my job

                Guy makes statement about girl (avoiding “I dont know you” WALL).
                Girl still apprehensive on answering – low investment response but curious (this is OPENING).
                Guy doubles down pointing to girl previous response (OPENING missed).
                Girl makes statement about her (ie. was showing there was an OPENING) but WALL still there.
                Guy walks into WALL and now seeks to justify why girl knows guy.

                The above segment shows girl moving away creating a gap and guy is now chasing to close the gap.

                [~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Im name. We went to same course around same time. Thats fate ? (giving her the feel of knowing me by highlighting commonalities and messing with her some with that fate bit)
                Me: Yea i have done job stuff she asked
                Her‬: Yeah and hundreds of other people went to the same course also
                Her‬: Lol (she likes the ridiculousness of it)
                Her‬: Did you get a job?

                Guy is trying to rationalize previous statements. The use of fate here seems weird and disjointed (cannot see girl making a connection here).
                Girl dismisses guy information and reasons (ie. why should I have remembered you?).

                Note that girl does not give guy her name (ie. lack of sexual interest from girl).

                Girl switching to asexual rapport (ie. she trying to see if guy can be useful to her asexually)

                [~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: And how many of them u talk to ? (our connection is special ;)
                Her‬: Talk to as friends?
                Me: Nope
                Me: As man to woman
                Her‬: None (at this point my instinct was to hammer it down with ‘exactly’ but i thought she got the point. Give her some comfort stuff so she can rationalize she knows me.

                Guy tries to make ‘connection seem like magic’ (ie. girl special to guy; ie. guy showing low value here by rationalizing).
                Girl puts up wall.
                Guy bangs head into wall by responding directly to it.
                Use of words ‘as man to woman’ caused major setback for guy as it is overt. Top guy would speak in inuendo (ie. covertly)

                Girl sees guy banging head into wall and closes ‘wall loop’

                Complete frame mismatch is seen in the above.

                [~~ Segment 6 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Yea i got a job in city
                Me: Sorting some paperwork about it
                Her: That’s nice congratulations
                Which company?
                Her‬: And what department?

                Guy continues with girl asexual rapport therefore falling into frame of girl.
                Girl has locked in asexual rapport frame (ie. we only going to be friends and you going to be useful to me for my work life, nothing else).

                Attraction from girl is dead.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 6:03 pm

                That’s the wrong kind of rapport, talking about jobs and crap. It’s funny that she’s asking the questions, but usually this ends in a sad place

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 6:06 pm

                Lucretius, all on point – great read

              • Lucretius says:

                05/16/2018 at 9:21 pm

                @yohami:
                Can you provide correction on robinhood latest chat?
                I am looking for more correct responses to analyse for structure/threads

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 10:16 pm

                It’s too offrails to be corrected. He should send a dick pick and consider that lead dead.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/17/2018 at 4:07 pm

                @yohami
                How would you address this point?
                What would be your response?

                Her‬: I’ve never seen you around

                This feels strongly like an answer that baits the guy to respond further and it forces the guy into a corner.

26. Lucretius says:

    05/15/2018 at 5:30 pm

    I have two points and will make two separate posts to organise the response.

    The first is around the opening and talking ABOUT THE GIRL instead of a 3rd thing.

    If I look back at my responses, I have (always) opened with a third thing and then connect that to the girl but in reading yohami responses, the opening must be about the girl and then connecting a 3rd thing as support (if required) for the thing about the girl

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Example where opening is about 3rd thing (INCORRECT):

    [Line 1] Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 2] Guy: Are you wearing the latest spring fashion for 2018?
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?

    In all the above, the 3rd thing is something or other but the focus of the line whereas HER is only incidental to the 3rd thing ([Line 1] Italy, [Line 2] her clothes, [Line 3] her facial expression)

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Example where opening is about her (CORRECT)

    [Line 1] Guy: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 2] Guy: nice picture. You look like a hippie ;-)
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 3] Guy: You must be very intelligent if you’re reading a book that thick
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 4] Guy: Nice pic. You have no compassion for the people who can’t afford vacations, do you
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 5] Guy: So you a traveler, uh?
    ~~or~~
    [Line 6] Guy: Hey posh girl ;)
    ~~or~~
    [Line 7] Guy: Hey cutie ;)

    In all the above, the focus is on the girl first ([Line 1] her looks – body, [Line 2] her looks – dress, [Line 3] her attributes – intelligence, [Line 4 / 5] her lifestyle, [Line 6] her personality caricature, [Line 7] her looks – body) and then using supporting items if applicable (ie. clothes, book, travel locations, props).

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    While on the metro today a girl sat next to me and while I was replaying the above contrast in my mind from the previous days (not in as much detail but I had the general sense of contrast), I didnt say anything because my initial reaction was to talk about her style (3rd thing) and then to try to move it back to her. So for the time that she was sitting next to me (3-4min) I was trying to reconstruct the sentence in my mind (and therefore the correct conversational frame) and it showed me that something is wrong in how I have been approaching the opening point and likely the conversation in general.

    The point of this post, is to try to understand the overall approach by yohami in talking about the girl – in other words, I am trying to work out a structure/format to how the opening should go.

    From what I can see on the above, the following are formats in CORRECT lines:
    [Line 1] = FLIRT + Compliment HER (not 3rd thing)
    [Line 2] = Observation + Judgement HER (teasing)
    [Line 3] = Observation + Teasing HER
    [Line 4] = Observation + Teasing HER
    [Line 5] = (Silent) Observation + Challenge HER
    [Line 6] = FLIRT + Nickname HER (personality not current emotional state or category)
    [Line 7] = FLIRT + Validation HER (body)

    @yohami: What other lines are appropriate for the opening can you think of? Just the words as you would speak them such that I can then break them down into ‘structure/format’

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 7:47 am

      Pay attention to the principles and less to the format. The principles will tell you the structure and format.

      The principle is you’re doing a Ping

      Ping: a small request of attention. You can be pinging the whole girl, or part of the girl.

      So when you ping her with the opener, you’re going from point A, and leading towards point B. The point A is “hi, Im a man, I find you attractive, I may want to fuck you”, and point B is “Let’s make that happen”

      That’s the structure.

      Now zoom in into the initial ping, or the opener.

      The frame is that you’re a high value man, so you’re passing judgement. Basically you will be giving positive or negative judgement.

      Aka, you’re giving her a compliment, or giving her a neg. All framed into a “flirt”, or a nuanced signal of sexual interest.

      And you need to LAND this ping, it must be TRUE. Example if she’s nerdy and you call her ‘slut’ it won’t land, if she’s local and you call her ‘traveler’ it won’t land. If she’s shy and you call her ‘party animal’ it won’t land – with the exception of when you’re doing these with humor or as negs, then you can get away with them.

      Speaking of which this is how humor really works.

      If you have a nerdy girl and you call her a “sexy party girl” with a hint of humor and a smirk on your face, that’s a friendly neg and she’ll like it. And if she’s an actual sexy party girl, then you’re rewarding her and she’ll also like it, plus like your cocky face.

      So always add cocky / fun. It sets the proper frame.

      Now let’s look into your lines

      ========================================

      “[Line 1] Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?”

      The first part is redundant so this is better

      “Guy: is that you in Italy? (pointing at picture if you’re in person)”

      That can work if you’re going somewhere. Are you preparing a story about your travel? is this meaningful to you in any way? Are you going to tell a story of how you were raised in Italy and had to escape because the italian mob wanted to take your dick off after you banged all the virgins? where are you going? are you going to say you love italian chicks? girls who travel? what’s your angle?

      But it can work. As long as you’re going somewhere and not just doing rapport.

      ========================================

      “[Line 2] Guy: Are you wearing the latest spring fashion for 2018?”

      That can work if you’re negging her and if she has a sense of humor.

      If she wearing a plastic bag? will she take a joke? the line above is great.

      But if you are actually initiating a conversation about the fashion for 2018 you’re on the wrong lane.

      ====================

      [Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?

      This is the shittiest line of them all and fails on all aspects.

      Why?

      First – what you’re saying must be true, or must be a neg.

      For it to resonate, she had to actually had a blank / dreamy expression, and had to be thinking of sex. So you’re leaving out 99.9% of all possible scenarios.

      If she actually had a sexual expression, then just actually call her on it

      Me: You look like a troublemaker ;-)
      Her: hahahah why?
      Me: You have that expression on you… who knows what you’re thinking
      Her: hahaha
      Me: you’re a naughty girl aren’t you

      So the above – this will only work with the girl who is actually naughty etc. It’s dead on specific like with the ‘are you a traveler’, so we’re back, in structure, to this format:

      Me: You look like a [ category ] ;-)

      But the line you presented is more wrong than this so I want to ask what the fuck it is, why you think it’s good, or where it came from

      “[Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?”

      Note

      It doesn’t frame it as man to woman

      It doesn’t frame you as high value man passing judgement

      It’s not flirting

      It’s a question, which means, without the things above, that it’s going for pure rapport

      Since it’s rapport and not flirting, when what it stands about it is that you are paying attention. So you have a guy paying attention to a girls face, and trying to get into her thoughts

      This is CREPPY AS FUCK

      And now guy wants her to come talk to him about this non-sexual thoughts that she may or not be having. Because he cares.

      This goes in line with actually talking about her fashion sense. What the fuck is this man.

      Talk to her vagina

      Why? because you want to fuck her

      Don’t you?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 5:11 pm

        Succinct answer.

        For the various lines, I was looking to contrast them with the lines you used from this thread. there was no other specific reason for these three lines.

        For [Line 1], I can see the use of a 3rd thing can work if it is leading somewhere such as in a funny story or DHV.

        For [Line 2], this was actually a setup line that got the girl to answer and was then followed up with a further joke (something similar to tropics girl from before). It was nothing to really be about the girls fashion.

        For [Line 3], somehow this line developed from a few uses as a way to indirectly start a conversation however I understand the problems with it. The concept was the structure as you mentioned with follow on:

        Guy : You look like a [ category ] ;-)

        On the point of ‘structure/format’, it is more todo with my speech. The principles are intellectually understood but need to get use to saying things in the ‘correct way’. An example of this is where I find myself saying [question + statement] in my normal day to day speech over the past 1.5 weeks at the office and socially.

        If the focus is talking to a girl, by default I would be doing [rapport + break rapport] without consciously thinking about it.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 7:06 pm

        “Talk to her vagina”

        This sums up the overall direction of all interactions that should be going on between guy + girl. From this, i should be able to work out some ideas based on whatever contextual information I can get from the girl.

        Reply
27. Lucretius says:

    05/15/2018 at 6:13 pm

    The second point is around openings from the girl.

    In the robinhood original text chat, the following was said:

    ”
    “Her: I’m not sensitive”

    THIS IS AN OPENING. She made it about herself. So you neg her and tell her she’s insensitive, and now she’s justifying to you. Here you can reward and tell her that good, because you prefer sensitive girls

    “Her: have no idea who you are”

    THIS IS AN OPENING.
    ”

    While I understand that the above would be considered an opening because it is now about girl, I would like to understand the working mechanics of it and also what the likely responses could be.

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    If I generalize the response type, it comes as:

    [Line 1] Girl : I am [attribute of state]
    ~~or~~
    [Line 2] Girl : I am not [attribute of state]

    In the above the following can be expanded:
    – [attribute of state] can be happy / sad / excited / bored / angry / lazy / tired / energetic / etc

    I would also think that for [Line 2] this would be a boundary (wall) where the girl is saying the negative of something (ie. I am not sensitive, I am not boring, I am not sad). The guy here cannot keep going down this direction because it would be addressing the wall however the yohami response would be to ‘acknowledge it’ by guy saying “Good, I dont prefer sensitive girls” – Not sure if there is a typo in ‘senstive vs not sensitive’.

    The question #1 is how should the guy address a response of type [Line 2] and make it work as an OPENING?

    The question #2 is how should the guy address a response of type [Line 1] if slanted to the positive (ie. I am excited) and if slanted to the negative (ie. I am so lazy). How can this be used as an OPENING?

    The question #3 is in the above context, does the yohami term OPENING mean a conversation thread to continue further or something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    For clarity, the OPENING from ‘hahahahaha’ is understood as this is an arousal point and therefore the same conversation thread should be continued a little more (limit = Triple down).

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 7:20 am

      These are openings because everything that is about HER is an opening, positive and negative.

      The girl will either put a wall and push you away, or “reveal who she is” which is just a roadmap to having sex with you.

      “Her: I’m not sensitive”

      That means she places value in being strong. So here you can stomp a little in her sensitiveness and see if it’s for real

      “Her: have no idea who you are”

      That means she engages better with people she knows than with strangers, or “first I have to get to know you, then I can fuck you”, so she’ll need more rapport of social preselection

      Now, the specifics depend completely on the girl.

      Is this a girl you can tell is actually EMOTIONAL and is just pretending she’s not sensitive but she is? is she a cry baby? or is she tough? you can go into it by pinging her sensitivity, or pinging her toughness, which do you neg, which do you reward? it goes back to WHO IS SHE. Then, which kind of guy she likes? does she likes a tough guy, a sensitive guy? does she have a sense of humor?

      All these questions is your ‘screening’, finding the answers is why you’re talking to her.

      ===================

      Let’s say she’s actually sensitive, is goofy, and a little shy

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: Not sensitive uh
      Her: No!
      Me: Not even a little little???
      Her: No…
      Me: So what you can watch Leonardo Dicaprio drowning and you feel NOTHING, man what a cold heart
      Her: hahaha
      Me: So you stand there and Dicaprio is there Rose Rose Rose! and you’re there just doing your nails or whatever “shut up leo Im busy!”
      Her: hahahahaah
      Me: You’re a TRUE gem aren’t you
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Im going to make sure not to take you to the Titanic
      Her: hahaha

      Now, do the above with a girl who is actually tough / masculine and without a sense of humor, or with a girl that is more on the sexual and less on the goofy, and the above will FALL FLAT

      It’s ‘know who you’re talking to’

      =================

      So what would work on a girl who is tough? neg her

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: Too bad, I like girls who can feel things

      That will piss her off, which is fine as ‘pissed off’ is an intrinsic part of her personality. Also will trigger the ‘who the fuck are you’ which addresses the other opening she gave you

      =================

      So what would work on a girl who is super sexual?

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: That’s because you haven’t found the right man

      ================

      WHO IS SHE?

      Makes sense?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/16/2018 at 7:24 am

        What about a girl who is truly super sexual and direct? aka, the ones with a ton of slut / aesthetic production on them

        Her: I’m not sensitive
        Me: So you don’t orgasm either

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 9:42 am

      This line is so shit I keep finding faults on it

      “[Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?”

      The first part of it ‘you had this expression’

      It not only signals that ‘you care’ but it’s also giving you an excuse to talk to her.

      You don’t need an excuse to talk to her.

      Me: Hi ;-) I really like your profile picture

      Is MAGNITUDES STRONGER than

      Me: I was browsing the pictures of the people who went to my course and I saw yours
      Me: I really like your picture

      =========

      The first one is a man, the second one is a creep.

      Why?

      Because THE MAN doesn’t need an excuse to talk to her. The reason he’s talking to her, is he likes her.

      So here “you had this expression on your face” means that you’re giving an excuse to talk to her, which is NOT that you find her attractive, but that you’re noticing something else.

      You don’t need excuses to talk to her.

      Talk to her.

      And make it about her. Then about you and her.

      She has a blank stare and looks bored? Go for it

      ===============

      (girl looks bored)

      Me: Bored uh?
      Her: Yes
      Me: Cues are the worst. I’d like to send everyone here to jail
      Her: Haha why?
      Me: They are wasting my time!
      Her: yeah..
      Me: That cashier has no clue of what she’s doing
      Her: blah blah blah
      Me: Let’s do something. You distract people and Im going to pull that fire alarm
      Her: what?
      Me: Yeah dance or sign or something. Use your talents
      Her: haha
      Me: Just don’t get naked
      Me: Scratch that just get naked
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Anyway, what are you here for?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 5:23 pm

        Not to expand on [Line 3] – it would be super weird if used online.

        This is interesting:

        [Line 8] Me: Cues are the worst. I’d like to send everyone here to jail

        It breaks into a ‘structure/format’ of:

        [Line 8] = Judgement + Statement of Action (yohami ramp)

        Reply
28. Choad says:

    05/15/2018 at 6:48 pm

    Been in the archives all week reading Yohami + Nash exchanges, taking notes, and it’s been educating. I’m taking a break cus I have one question

    Yohami, what’s your advice for a guy who runs out of things to say in conversation with girls?

    Nash, I’d be grateful if you told me your secret too, as it is apparent you’re a master of conversation on dates (although I’ve just read posts in the archives from 2016 where your flaw was talking instead of doing and Yohami was letting you have it), still I’d like if you told me how you’re able to keep conversation going with girls.

    I saw a RSD Tyler video where he tried to teach it but managed not to say anything workable in the 1hr+ long clip.

    Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/15/2018 at 9:53 pm

      reading Yohami + Nash exchanges, taking notes, and it’s been educating.

      Yes. For me too.

      Nash, I’d be grateful if you told me your secret too, as it is apparent you’re a master of conversation on dates
      if you told me how you’re able to keep conversation going with girls.

      This is a really tricky thing… a it’s not an easy answer. I’d say it’s related to INNER GAME and EXPERIENCE.

      Experience… because you probably don’t know yourself that well (not in the context of women), and you don’t know girls that well (not yet), and you don’t know the you+girl puzzle very well. So… you need a lot more experience… and then I bet you’ll have no trouble keeping conversation going, and your questions will be of a different nature.

      I know that’s not helpful… but give that some thought. Have 20 more dates… and see if this is still an issue. I predict it will not be.

      INNER GAME… is a factor as you likely are trying to “ask the right questions” or “say the right things.” As your experience gets better, and you clean up your inner game (which is also a mysterious process)… you will be interested in different parts of yourself and the girls. And when you’re there… you’ll talk about those things… BECAUSE THEY INTEREST YOU.

      ………..

      For now:

      In SET, during an approach… I recommend TALK ABOUT HER LOGISTICS. At least some. Make that the framework of your approach. And then… spin off the framework based on what naturally comes up, or things she adds, or areas that help the seduction. In the short term… focusing on LOGISTICS (where do you live? How often are you here? Oh you’re traveling, how long will you be here? Who are you traveling with? Do you live alone? Why do you come to the city?) WILL HELP THE SEDUCTION.

      This ^ is not sexy shit, so don’t be a robot about it… BUT if she is leaving tonight… that would be good to know. If she is in town for 3 days… it’s helpful to know that, that would change your plan. if she lives with her BF… good to know. Mix this with CHARM… and you’re making good use of your time.

      On DATES… At first, I am doing things to make her comfortable. That’s point one. Then… “what would help the seduction?” So now, I’d switch to “psychological logistics.” For me… I spend an awful lot of time talking about masc/fem… because that helps me in the seduction. I explain that I like that topic. And I pace/lead how fem she is back to her. And I role play what good masc/fem looks like. And I model masculinity for her. And I watch her reactions. And I pace/lead her reactions back to her. And we heat up… and it’s on. I bet I do this more than most guys.

      But notice how what I am talking about HELPS THE SEDUCTION… that is the guideline. You could do all this by only talking about movies… or song lyrics… or great leaders in history… anything THAT INTERESTS YOU. And then point to aspects that help the seduction.

      Again… I mix in more “normal stuff” (can you cook? What would you cook me if you wanted to impress me?). Charm, normal… and then… move it along toward sex.

      Again… I’m not a robot about this. I do it BECAUSE IT INTERESTS ME and because it helps MOVE THE SEDUCTION ALONG. I think I am a little unique in that I do so much of this… but this is what I do.

      I also do normal things… like ask who her best friend is. What would her best friend say about her? Etc. All this is “psychological logistics.” I am making up that term, but that’s not a bad way to say it.

      ………

      RECAP:
      — Talk about WHAT IS INTERESTING TO YOU (sex/relationship… if that’s true for you)
      — Talk about things that MOVE THE SEDUCTION FWD (get to know her, get her to trust you)

      Fucking be real, man. The more “pure technique” you’re doing, the worse the date.

      I could do a whole 10k words on this, but… ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO HER? Are you talking about what you see?? That’s one way to be real. ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF? Are you talking about how you feel… in a way that moves the seduction along? THIS… is a way to stay REAL.

      I know we all need experience in the beginning… but if you’re not “you,” the date will suck, and she won’t see you again. Don’t hammer on technique. Be a PARTNER to the girl on the date, and LEAD HER (you’re the “super partner”).

      I hope that helps.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/16/2018 at 6:44 am

        Yeah!

        Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/15/2018 at 9:55 pm

      I saw a RSD Tyler video where he tried to teach it but managed not to say anything workable in the 1hr+ long clip.

      Yep. : ]

      I just did 1000 words… not sure I gave you anything usable either.

      BUT… I gave you a very high-quality response.

      Read what I wrote… go on 3 dates. Read it again. Go on three more dates. Read it again. See if you can FEEL IT on the dates.

      This is how Yohami’s game seeped into my game and I started to get better.

      It took me about 5 dates to see/get/implement something Yohami was teaching me. It’s like that.

      Reply
      • Factory says:

        05/16/2018 at 12:18 am

        This is a great set of tips Nash – well written and easy to apply.

        “Paying attention” is one of the best and Yohami stresses this. I’ll add – applying to EVERYTHING while out, PRIOR to approach also – being observant / aware. Great for picking up minor IOIs you might normally miss.

        On a fun side note, and whilst “paying attention” to goings on in the street. On my lunch break yesterday, I noticed my first fellow gamer (I presume). It appeared to be close to the opener as I noticed the girl blushing as I passed (it’s what caught my attention). I walked on and looked back intrigued by what I’d just saw. They were still talking so I decided to turn back and walk past again to confirm my thoughts. As I walked past again she had “his” phone and handed it back to him…

        Number close!

        Viva la daygame, as you’d say :-)

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 6:49 am

      “what’s your advice for a guy who runs out of things to say in conversation with girls?”

      That means you’re trying to impress her.

      But you’re not supposed to be ‘saying things’, you’re supposed to be ‘engaging with her’, or, say things, tell stories that will make her react, then you pay attention to her reactions and take it somewhere else.

      There’s this book “how to make friends and influence people” by dale carniege that has a nice blueprint for having conversations

      The succint is this:

      Don’t ask questions that can be answered with yes or no
      When you answer a question, tell a story instead of doing yes / no. Give MORE information than you’re supposed to

      And to add game on it:

      Make sure to pass judgement, make funny statements, make things about HER, and YOU, and about the both of you, do roleplay, etc. Engage with her.

      And lead towards sex.

      Focus on her arousal level. Do ‘more of what works’ with her.

      Reply
29. Choad says:

    05/16/2018 at 7:27 am

    I’m not sure Nash and Yohami and other contributors are aware of how *game changing this blog is. Awesome work for setting it all up, Nash.

    I’ve now taken notes and will work on them. I’m thankful for the responses

    Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/16/2018 at 9:13 pm

      Yeah… I think a lot of us get that we are having an atypical conversation here. In large part… as Yohami is brining atypically strong insight… and I put myself on the sacrificial altar and Yohami carves me up as an opportunity to teach us all.

      It’s a good deal… I certainly have learned a lot.

      And we have good community here. Smart guys, low-ego, personal stories.

      Keep coming back. Make comments. You’ve got the right vibe.

      And go talk to girls!

      Reply
30. YOHAMI says:

    05/17/2018 at 5:16 pm

    Lucretius,

    “Her‬: I’ve never seen you around”

    Me: That’s weird
    Me: blah blah

    Take it in another direction

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/17/2018 at 5:21 pm

      I knew it has to move in another direction but wasnt sure how.
      Looks to be in structure:

      
      [Line 9a] Guy : Remark on oddity (that weird / funny/ strange/ odd)
      [Line 9b] Guy : SNIP + STACK in new direction
      

      Reply
31. Lucretius says:

    05/17/2018 at 5:47 pm

    @yohami
    In need of more practice, I sent an online message to a girl that would likely attend a drink event over the coming weekend.
    Be good if you could evaluate below exchange and provide some pointers where applicable.

    Background:
    I had already spoken to this girl in person 3x before (just general chit chat – total time 1.5h) and her ‘calling card’ was really in being a troublemaker where she would say things like ‘And meet my friend, who trains dogs and chickens professionally’ all with a straight face to see how long she can string a guy with this on-the-fly made up story. First time we met, she opened me (I was with other girls) but I caught on quickly and there was a bit of a laugh between us. In previous in person discussions (before reading yohami), I would say I was 66% bottom guy with 33% top guy. In the chat below (total exchange over 1 hour), I decided to put what I have learnt thus far to the test and this is the result.

    The Message Exchange:
    [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)
    [Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)
    [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)
    [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you
    [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?
    [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?
    [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
    [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …
    [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)
    [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)
    [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?
    [Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)
    [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].
    [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?
    [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is
    [Line 16] Me : I am [Country of parents] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].
    [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you [Country A] or [Country B]?
    [Line 18] Me : [Continent].
    [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)
    [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me
    [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))

    The Message Breakdown:

    [~~~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)
    [Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)

    [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)
    [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you
    

    On line 1, I am using the nickname troublemaker as this fits for her and also the wink smilie to flirt (man/woman frame).
    On line 2, She responds well as she goes along with it and returns smilie. she accepting frame.
    On line 3, I reward with haha and add ‘only the fun kind wink‘ so she knows what I am talking about
    On line 4, I am moving past the opening to get more material from her (using yohami traveller story as template). I purposefully do not put a question mark at the end following fuckboy tim advice to avoid upward tone inflection

    [~~~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?
    [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?
    [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …
    [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)
    

    On line 5, she is continuing to play along and wanting me to tell her in effect ‘that I like her’. She want me to validate her!
    On line 6, she then continues in ‘normal friendly tone’ for rapport (ie. a road to no where – a trap (wall) )
    On line 7, she is now testing me and saying something out of the ordinary. This is an OPENING.
    On line 8, I am withholding the validation that she wants – there is no reason for me to give it. She is still very pretty but starting to approach the wall (judging from her inperson behaviour before her looks start to fade)
    On line 9: I address the ‘how are you’ by saying ‘I’m awesome’, I also consciously do not say ‘thank you for asking’. At this point, I am consciously being careful not to repeat her words (ie. mirroring) while still addressing the relevant points and maintaining the conversational flow. The 2nd part is addressing her challenge (i mirror ‘magical powers’) and taking the OPENING. While typing this, my MIND WAS IN CONFLICT if the above was ‘too strong’ or not – I could feel the PHYSICAL STRAIN on my brain as my fingers were typing this but I pressed send and off it went wondering if she was going to respond at all. Either way, I am being very clear in establishing the sexual frame.

    [~~~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)
    [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?

    [Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)
    [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].
    

    On line 10, she see my frame and accepts it. I think she smiling because of the smilie face in her response – i am hitting an arousal point
    On line 11, she is now trying to continue the conversation but trying to switch back to rapport by talking about my nationality as she has hear two nationalities from my in person (background = I switch depending on how I am talking to and what I think would made better conversation)
    On line 12, I am trippling down on the sexual frame. I am very conscious that 3x down this thread is the limit but since she said ‘half half’ I pushed it one last time to this limit. I use the word ‘may’ instead of ‘will’. I felt that using the word ‘will’ could give her the option to just shut me down for her laughs and ego. By using the word ‘may’ it is not certain if I am going to keep moving in her direction forcing her to doubt and hamster all my future actions.
    On line 13, I know that I cannot keep hammering the sexual thread and have to address her rapport item for the conversation flow. I keep it superficial.

    [~~~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?
    [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is
    [Line 16] Me : I am [Parents Country nationality] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].
    

    On line 14, she is now trying to reconcile what she heard from her two different ears while in person.
    On line 15, she really trying to continue the discussion down the rapport line triggered by my ‘wont go back’ statement.
    On line 16, I am responding by keeping it brief while being very conscious that the more I give here, the more this is going to go into rapport ad-nauseum to nowhere.

    [~~~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you from [Country A] or [Country B]?

    [Line 18] Me : [Continent].
    [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)

    [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me
    [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))
    

    On line 17, she is still trying to put her rapport frame in. My patience for continuing this conversation is over and she is giving me nothing to work with from her side (from what I can see).
    On line 18, I give terse response to her rapport question.
    On line 19, I close with this (as a way of saying bye) which is a casual command with a wink referring back to my sexual frame. I dont want her number as I will likely see her at upcoming drinks.
    On line 20, she states non-compliance but re-accepts my sexual frame (ie. she stopped seeking rapport)
    On line 21, she is now explaining herself to me why I should go to her (ie. she trying to establish herself as higher value and make me chase). She wants guy to come to her as she is use to having. This is also a wall (trap) that I know I cannot interact with (at least at my skill level). Conversation ends at this point.

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    In summary, I am not invested in this girl at all and dont really care one way or the other if I have her or not.
    But if the situation goes my way, i take her.

    The objective was training but in the above, I felt I did the following:
    1. Got her attention + FLIRTED
    2. Set sexual frame
    3. Got her thinking of me within sexual frame
    4. Left her with a thought about me at drinks (she will picture me + other girls as she has seen me with them before)

    Any thoughts?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 8:47 pm

      Aight man. In general it’ an improvement. She’s a fast girl. FAST girl. x20 ahead of you.

      When the chat started she took your flirting and escalated it herself. There you should have escalated, but instead you pulled the breaks and went for rapport (that was you). There she pushed you HARD into rapport, and then gave some resistance when you tried to go back to flirting.

      This girl is domineering – you’d have to be ahead of her at all times. You’ll get there.

      ===========================

      [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)

      Good. This is nitpicking but ;-) is more masculine than ;). Of course if these are actual emoticons, nevermind.

      Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)

      THIS.

      See what she did there? she ESCALATED. This was the opening and she put it right in front of your face. Here you can say “oh I love trouble” or “I may like some trouble with you”

      Anything that pings back her overt flirting

      [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)

      The emoticon here doesn’t make sense – but all in all you’re de-escalating. You set a mini wall by stating that you only like a certain type of trouble, when the opening, the clear opening is that BIG trouble is BIG SEX.

      Another good answer would have been “I only like big troubles” and then “how much trouble can you take” or “how much in trouble can we get” whatever. This is about fucking.

      [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you

      This is where you derail the conversation. You are breaking rapport, which is good in general, stating things then moving the subject – except you’re moving away from sex.

      You pinged, she escalated, an you you’re moving away from her escalation and want to talk mundane things now? don’t. In her eyes you just missed the window, and won’t fuck her. The puzzle “just got more difficult”. That’s all it takes.

      [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?

      This is her doubling down that trouble is FUN and so is SHE. This is a clear invitation to dance.

      [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?

      Can you tell how little of a fuck she gives now? the flip of a switch. Now she’s giving you “the official version”. This is de escalation but it’s also an opening. Here I would have said “don’t care about the official, what’s the true story?”

      [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers”

      Do you see how she is breaking rapport now? she made a statement, asked a question, and before you even have the chance to respond she is TELLING YOU to do something for her, like you’re a monkey. Alpha chick.

      [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …

      Weak. If you’re going to make her visualize something in the future, make her actually visualize it. Aka, make up a story, come up with a plan, tease her.

      [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)

      Here you fell in the trap. She says “dance for me monkey and make me smile” and you replied “Im a special monkey who doesn’t have to dance to make me smile”. So you rejected the ‘dance’ part but you’re still trying to satisfy her criteria.

      Here you could contest her framing. I’d have said something like “Maybe I don’t want to make you smile” which would outrage her. Or make her smile. Not my problem.

      This is what I pointed at before that when a girl gives you an explicit opening, there’s little to be gained in doing exactly what she prompted. So anything here where you do anything at all that makes her smile is a trap. The correct key that opens that door is rob her the power she’s trying to exec over you.

      The other thing you could do is flirt (if you don’t feel like going for frame clash). A flirt like “you have beautiful eyes” or “I like your xx accent”, something that is plain and low investment and doesn’t constitute a monkey dancing, and is not parroting her same lines to her, any of them.

      I could also say: “I want to see you naked”

      Why? because it’s outrageous. It’s trouble. And it breaks the fucking pattern she’s trying to establish. It will also make her smile.

      But in all – good for identifying the trap. This is a trap indeed.

      Why is she setting you in a trap? because you failed to go through the door above, so now you get the wall. It’s like physics.

      [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)

      She likes it? right? right? you passed right?????

      Or is she happy that you did a little dance and she has power? will she be in compliance now or telling you to do more stuff?

      Which is it?

      Well she can’t be in compliance because she’s leading this now. So she gives you a bone and then…

      [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?

      She continues leading you into nowhere. Nobody gives a fuck about this.

      Me: Yes, my ass is peruvian and my dick is puertorrican.

      BREAK OUT OF THE TRAP

      “[Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)”

      You’re playing into her hand. You’re flirting to the WALL.

      [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].

      If you’re going to go rapport like this, say a story. Frame it as an interesting or deep or remarkable display of high value. You are, right now, in the middle of a sexual courtship. Bobody gives a fuck about the country or if you’re going back. If you’re going to give info, make it interesting. Channel it into male to female. It’s slipping away.

      Me: I was born in Italy, raised in venezuela. My dad is a painter and my mom is a music teacher. When I was 27 there was a military coup and I decided I had enough, I sold everything I had and got just enough to bribe the military so I could get a passport, and flew to Argentina with 100 bucks in my pocket. So I borrowed a computer and got a very, very cheap room at a hotel full of prostitutes and went to work doing websites and stuff like that, till I made enough money to get out of that hole. 10 years later, Im a millionaire. So dreams can become true ;-)

      [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?

      Boring

      [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is

      See how consistently she breaks rapport and makes statements. She’s following that “top guy” structure you were talking notes about. She’s making you go up and down and directing this conversation. The issue is that she’s not leading you sexually, but asexually, because only bottom guy allows a girl to take control like this – therefore she can only use this control to treat you like a bottom guy, and reduce the size of your dick until it disappears into the nothingness.

      [Line 16] Me : I am [Country of parents] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].

      Nobody give a fuck.

      Me: Where do you want our babies to be raised in?

      WHERE IN A SEXUAL COURTSHIP

      [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you [Country A] or [Country B]?

      Me: I like the girls of [Country] better.

      [Line 18] Me : [Continent].

      Boring. But good for pulling the breaks here. You saved an inch of dick before it completely bent backwards and went into your ass and she fucked you with it.

      [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)

      GOOD. Not specially strong considering where you’re at now, but good. Good good good. Break the stupid trap, take the reigns again.

      [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me

      See how she went from “Im fun trouble and you like me” to “nope”

      [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))

      Me: You’re all savages.

      All in all, you showed some teeth. Keep iterating. She may still be bangable.

      When you meet her or talk to her again, TAKE THE OPENINGS. ESCALATE.

      Cheers man.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/17/2018 at 10:19 pm

        Thank you for taking the time to breaking down the interaction in detail and also providing alternative responses (these really help).

        Key things from your analysis:
        – On line 1, the wink smilie, I use a mix of emoji or text. Will adjust to ;-) instead of ;)

        On line 2, I didnt see it as an escalation at the time but following your explanation I can see how this is an escalation. My concern while typing was not to mirror or follow her conversation lead
        On line 3, the smilie was me flirting. Everywhere there is a smilie is me flirting where I am using words but covertly I am talking about sex. Following your recommendation, the better response would of been “I love trouble … how much trouble do you think we can get in?”. What my mind was thinking is the ‘non-sense stories’ she was spinning with other guys (ie. pranks). This is from where my response was coming from.
        On line 4, here I can understand where I went wrong (ie. breaking rapport at point of flirting). Here I was thinking to move forward to flirt on something else that she may give me. Since I didnt want to bring up anything from previous drinks, I tried to move the discussion forward and see if she would give me anything to work with. In retrospect, I should of just continued along this line of ‘fun trouble’ and kept ‘twisting’ the meaning to make a new thread.
        On line 5, I saw this as her searching for validation of her pranks but I can also see her wanting me to escalate the ‘fun trouble’ point.
        On line 6, she is responding to line 4. What was going through my mind was that I did not want to build rapport by really asking about how she was. If I had said “don’t care about the official, what’s the true story?”, it would feel like I am really interested in her day / her feelings / etc which I am not.
        On line 7, this was something that I didnt expect of her. On the ‘alpha chick’ using rapport + break rapport, I didnt detect this at the time as it didnt occur to me that girls could also apply the ‘top guy format’ to guys. This is noted and will look for this next time.
        On line 8, I can see that I could of improve on my response and made more of a story. She also put lines 5 + 6 + 7 in one message. If I was to answer all of them in one go in more details, I would have wayyy to many words and this would have me ‘over investing’ in responding to her.
        On line 9, my response was to ‘break the pattern she was trying to establish’ however I disagree with your statement that I was complying with her request. She wanted me to say something to make her smile. If I had said anything that could of been seen as a verbal attempt to make her smile (eg. your beautiful, your amazing, your blah blah), then I would of fallen into her trap and done as she asked. When I saw her request (line 7), I saw it as an opportunity to change the frame from asexual rapport (which is where it was going) back to sexual. There could always be a varied opinion here but the above is what was moving through my mind.
        On line 10, she accepted my switch back to sexual frame. The smilie I think was more for surprise that I did the above rather than anything else. Again a varied opinion can exist here.
        On line 11, this is nonsense rapport talk which I detected in real-time but need to raise a separate post on this to address this properly
        On line 12, related to my previous comment on rapport. I was trying to break out by maintaining sexual frame but fell deeper into rapport.
        On line 13, I was not going for rapport at all but fell into it. Using a story like you suggested would of gotten me out of the rapport trap.
        On line 14, more bullshit rapport from her also trying to trap me with my words from previous in person exchanges.
        On line 15, again did not know girls would apply “top guy structure”. My fault being stuck here – relates to previous rapport point.
        On line 16, I am still stuck in the rapport
        On line 17, still stuck. She is now trying to corner me with rapport. Your suggested answer gives me a way (tool) to get out of this rapport trap.
        On line 18, I could see the rapport was going nowhere and was shortening responses more and more to leave nothing for her to use against me. If I had broken the rapport trap earlier, I would of not arrived at this point.
        On line 19, I was looking to make her come to me rather than me to her.
        On line 20, was not expecting this from her.
        On line 21, was sort of thinking girls may say something like this. Your recommended response of “savages” would of been a good closer before “disconnecting”.

        In general, it was expected that I would girls while learning but it also seems that there are always more girls to practice on. It is a real possibility that things go nowhere with this girl or other girls for a while, but through each iteration I figure out something new which in this case was:
        – Girl can use “top guy format” of rapport + break rapport (ie. question + statement)
        – When flirting, mentally replace the explicit “subject word” with “sex” and operate on that
        – When going into boring rapport or background, tell a funny story (true or made up)
        – If conversation moves into rapport, break out (likely OFFHAND + SNIP + STACK)

        As time progresses and I have new interactions, I will put them here to evaluation.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/17/2018 at 10:40 pm

          note: rapport is good when she does it. What she will do with rapport is tell you how to bang her

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/18/2018 at 7:07 am

            Can you give a sample conversation where this occurs?

            Will post later on my ‘rapport issue’ once I have gathered my thoughts.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/18/2018 at 7:30 am

              In my bus girl example, once I escalated and she didn’t fully follow, I switched to her saying “so what’s up with you”

              What she’ll do then is ‘blah blah blah’ and give you info on her logistics, mood, preferences, etc, but it’s all really catered to the sexual dance, as long as she’s interested.

              In your case the ‘what’s up with you’ didn’t have that effect because you broke the flirting vibe with it – she didn’t want to talk and tried to make you go into rapport.

              When you’re going into rapport don’t do rapport – tell stories that dhv, roleplay or do call to actions, and pass judgement, and reframe things into being you and her.

              =================

              Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery
              Me: Yes it’s beautiful, so when where you there
              Her: last summer
              Me: So why did you come back here if you liked it so much?

              see? that ball is passed back to her

              Her: hahaha I’ve got responsibilities
              Me: What responsibilities? think of the chicken
              Her: what?
              Me: I heard you were in (country X) working at a chicken farm as a chicken trainer, isn’t that where all your stories come from?
              Her: hahaah
              Me: Anyway – Im not going back to XXX because of XXX, but I’d be back if you come along and you show me that farm
              Her: hahaha
              Me: I want to see you in action ;-)
              Her: hahaha
              Me: Chicken girl

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:45 am

                Everything a girl tells you is a roadmap to fuck her:

                “Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery”

                She likes beauty and calm and likes to travel. Other girls will say that they like culture, or partying.

                So you can take the line above for example and say: so you’re not a party girl are you, or you can ask her out to see the scenery at X. She is telling you there what she likes [to have sex]

                “Her: hahaha I’ve got responsibilities”

                I made up this one but it means that she puts responsibilities above pleasure. Here the usual is to offer to be the one she doesn’t have to be as responsible with, aka you’re the gateway to adventure, she can relax and you’ll lead her there.

                “[Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you from [Country A] or [Country B]?”

                She’s into categories. You can ask her which country has the men she likes the most. You can later frame her with this same device and ask if she’s an A or B type of girl. This ‘rubs her in the right spot’

                “[Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers”

                She’s entitled and is used to really push guys and make them do things, she will LOVE a guy with boundaries she can’t manipulate, will love to be negged, being told what to do etc. She may get ‘infuriated’ by it which is just her vagina kicking in and wanting some dick. But all her ‘pushing men around’ has the sole objective of finding the one true man who will stand on his feet. Which is why your line of ‘making you smile without saying anything’ didn’t fully cut it.

                Me: Wow you sound like a pickup artist, just the other that girl X told me the same line
                Her: what?
                Me: Yeah she was all “hey make me smile I want to see your superpower”, I told her to get naked and make me a sandwitch
                Her: hahahaha
                Me: Are you all going to the same seduction school or something
                Her: hahaha

              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:47 pm

                
                Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery
                Me: Yes it’s beautiful, so when where you there
                Her: last summer
                Me: So why did you come back here if you liked it so much?
                

                This is what I was looking for. It reverses the control of frame and then would allow me to switch to a different topic.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 8:07 pm

                On this part of your response:

                
                She’s entitled and is used to really push guys and make them do things, she will LOVE a guy with boundaries she can’t manipulate, will love to be negged, being told what to do etc. She may get ‘infuriated’ by it which is just her vagina kicking in and wanting some dick.
                

                This does describes her and does fit with the ‘map of the interaction’ since I had met her. She had initially tried to ‘prank me’ with the non-sense story but I didnt bite. I am confident that she did it to others and they went along too far with it.

                There were other occasions where I had opened her at another event and then she opens me via messages. It is a bit of backwards and forwards and at the time, I was not looking to have her so it was just fun exchanges and nothing else. The message exchange was the first where I had put the sexual frame in place.

                From here, I will have to see what happens.

                On the general rapport post, it was around girls always wanting to start / continue conversations with me on boring things. The more I thought about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the girl is ‘asking’ me to interact with her and escalate verbally. The conversations are always around same boring rapport topics.

                From your last set of rapport posts, I feel that I have enough now on how to move the rapport discussion around without getting stuck in a particular point or subject. If anything interesting comes up, I will report back.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 8:29 pm

                Rock on man

    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 9:06 pm

      Her: you like trouble – admit it :)
      Me: Yeah you’re alright
      Me: And kind of cute too
      Her: what??
      Me: It depends on how the light hits you
      Her: ahahah
      Me: And how many drinks I had
      Me: But yeah mostly cute I thoink
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Too bad about that face!

      Reply
32. Yohami helps me | Rivelino's Diary says:

    05/17/2018 at 7:15 pm

    […] by reminding me what a flirty conversation should sound like. from nash’s blog: […]

    Reply
33. The girl on the bus | Rivelino's Diary says:

    05/17/2018 at 7:18 pm

    […] yohami helps me by reminding me what a flirty conversation should sound like. from nash’s blog: […]

    Reply
34. Flat Lander says:

    05/17/2018 at 8:13 pm

    Outstanding example of how to dry her pussy before she lays eyes on you at that party.

    You’ve spent 90 minutes with her and you haven’t made any moves. You are firmly in the 100% cute bottom guy drawer. She’ll marry you when she turns 33 and divorce you when she’s 38.
    The BS about nationalities and where you were raised is BORING AF. It’s not about her and it’s just terrible chitchat.
    The only way out is smashing the frame.
    **[Line 01] Me: hi grrrl.. I’ll be at the party on… and I hope you won’t try your insane stories on me or on any of the other guests. I still have PTSD when I think of that smelly chicken trainer. **

    This is the mother of all pushes. You need to push her away and reset everything she thinks of you.

    Ideally you wouldn’t text her at all and simply game her properly at the party.
    For instance I’d walk past her making chicken noises and warning other people about her and her tall tales..

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 8:57 pm

      Yes.

      Reply
35. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 9:28 am

    Yohami, thank you for all your help to other men. It is really very much needed and we are all grateful for your generosity.

    I’d like to contribute my text chat too.

    I met this girl while she was leaving the gym and has a bandage on her leg. She was stunning, a true beauty. And I was in a good mood that day.

    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

    Anyway, here is the text chat:

    Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me: I found you ;-)

    Her: Hahahaha

    Me: This is you
    Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful

    Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    Her: Good boy

    Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)

    Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

    Me: You like girls?!

    Her: No :D

    Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)

    Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
    Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Her: Yes

    Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me: I like it

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire

    Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me: [Angel Emoji]

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere

    Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me: I am the boss of sexy

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]

    Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
    Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me: Hahahah

    Her: [Angry face sticker]

    Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me: hahaha

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/18/2018 at 10:52 am

      She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

      You’re projecting based on a man’s similar behaviour. She’s not the boss of men. It’s just a bitch shield, because so many gameless creeps approach her. You did something right on the approach (or you’re good looking), even if it was mostly tussle. Less tussle, less arguing, less contradicting and more cocky/funny and amused mastery.

      Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
      Weak attempt at humour.
      Better: “Hello buster. Has your knee fallen off yet?”

      Me: I found you ;-)
      Translation: Look at all the hoops I am jumping for you. I am a thirsty boy.

      Her: Hahahaha
      Translation: Good boy. Jump higher!

      Me: This is you

      Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
      Pedestalizing a pretty girl with a globally recognizable pretty cartoon girl.

      Her: Yes, that is me

      Her: Very beautiful
      Agree and amplify. She’s firmly in control.

      Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
      Are you 10? What the hell is that?

      Her: Good boy
      Yes, good boy who doesn’t make me tingle.

      Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
      Compliance request without attraction? She’ll tell you to take hike.

      Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
      Oh, yes, she does.

      Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.

      Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)
      A neg without attraction. You’re just throwing everything and hoping something will stick.

      Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

      Me: You like girls?!

      Her: No :D

      Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

      Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
      More negs without previous attraction.

      Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
      Still throwing shit and hoping something sticks.

      Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
      A question that requires a yes or no answer dries pussies.

      Her: Yes

      Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me

      Me: I like it

      Her: I have no possibility and no desire
      She’s hurt and she’s not attracted.

      Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.

      Me: [Angel Emoji]
      Stop with emojis. Just stop.

      Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
      You’re so bad at reading the situation, that she has to spell things out for you. Not smart, dude.

      Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.

      Me: I am the boss of sexy

      Her: Seriously?

      Her: [Troll face sticker]
      Look what you’re doing to her.

      Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
      A bit of irony. Yes, I guess.

      Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl

      Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
      The first proper line. That’s a stack and the possible beginning of a role play. Too little, too late, though.

      Me: Hahahah
      And you fuck it up.

      Her: [Angry face sticker]

      Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.

      Me: hahaha

      Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
      The tingle is born in the defensive crouch. The bitch shield is usually paper thin. She’s dreaming of a strong, confident man to sweep her off her feet. A well-placed neg works wonders.

      Overall, you should leave flirting to face-to-face interactions. For 99% of men text is for pinging, gentle teasing and logistics.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:25 am

        Yep.

        Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:17 am

      Ok. My analysis:

      Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
      Me: I found you ;-)

      Her: Hahahaha

      Me: This is you
      Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
      //Talking about her here.

      Her: Yes, that is me
      Her: Very beautiful
      //Shows confidence. Top girl.

      Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
      //Swinging my dick

      Her: Good boy
      //She controls the frame.

      Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
      //I tell her what to do.

      Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
      //Doesn’t buy into the frame.

      Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
      Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)
      //Punish with a neg.

      Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
      //She punishes my punishment.

      Me: You like girls?!
      //Punish by implying if she doesn’t meet me, it’s because she’s lesbian. No straight girl will say no to me.

      Her: No :D

      Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P
      //Continued punishment. Added sexuality. Neg on not wearing make up.

      Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
      //Smiles show it’s not so bad. The medium is the message: she’s still talking, and using smilies. It’s good.

      Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
      //I went for the opening and avoided the wall. The opening there is “think”. So misinterpreted as her giving me a compliment on my intelligence.

      Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
      //Talking about her. Opportunity to judge her.

      Her: Yes

      Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
      Me: I like it
      //Telling her what to do. Judging things. Top guy.

      Her: I have no possibility and no desire
      //Not buying into it.

      Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
      Me: [Angel Emoji]
      //Punishment. I don’t care about her. I am using her for something.

      Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
      //Trying to punish my punishment.

      Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
      //Going for the opening, the other leg is healthy. Plus it is funny. No other man would say this to a girl of this caliber.
      Me: I am the boss of sexy
      //Top guy right here.

      Her: Seriously?
      Her: [Troll face sticker]
      //Tries to ping Bottom Guy.

      Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
      Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
      Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
      //Not buying into it. Going into an emotional area.

      Me: Hahahah
      //It was funny to me. Maybe I should have used a wink instead. Not sure about whether “hahaha” is appropriate or not. By the way, in real life, when I tease a girl with a big tease, I say “I am joking!”. Should I let it be and if they’re offended it’s good?

      Her: [Angry face sticker]
      //As Yohami said, angry in the case of a boss girl like this means arousal. Really, no man would risk offending this girl.

      Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
      Me: hahaha
      //Neg on age. Funny to me as well, I laughed hard.

      Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
      //She gives me the frame. I’m Top Guy at this split second. Compliance.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:24 am

        I see – very interesting to see your thought process. Have you had sex with a woman yet? had girlfriends? What’s your level of exposure to girls?

        I ask because what’s going on is you’re misreading everything. You think she’s flirting when she’s putting you down. So that probably comes from lack of contrast. This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO. Have you experienced a YES girl?

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:33 am

          It’s not that I haven’t experienced a YES girl, it’s that normally I just text whatever. I don’t think about it. And if it sticks, it sticks. If not, fuck it. Freedom from outcome and all that.

          Now I am taking it more seriously and thinking about it. So I need new YES girls to see the difference.

          Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:36 am

          This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO.

          How can this be a NO girl if she’s answering at all? She answers every time.

          NO girls look at the text and don’t even respond. It’s not like other guys are not texting her.

          I am reading that she’s a maybe girl that is looking for what Krauser calls “the rub”. Which is a girl acting difficult hoping a man will put her in her place.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/18/2018 at 11:43 am

            She’s draining all the approval she can from you, and pushing you as low as you will take it. This is very common in girls.

            Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 11:44 am

              What to do in that case? Let her go?

              Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 11:47 am

              Yohami, if you’d make rules of when to let go of girls, when to stop texting them, or when meeting them when it is time to go find another girl, that would be VERY useful.

              Aka: When to NEXT or go silent and wait for her to message back.

              I remember when you were helping Riv with the french girl, you said you’d normally wait for her to respond to the text first before re-engaging but you had to text to move it faster.

              Well, when to know when to next a girl, and when to know to let her go and wait until she texts back as long as she’d take, even if it takes her a month?

              Rules for this will save a lot of effort and be very useful.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 11:50 am

                That’s easy: you stop investing when you have a wall, and you only invest on openings. We talked about that in length before. Investing ON THE WALL is death. All you did in that chat was to die.

              • BlueValentine says:

                05/18/2018 at 11:53 am

                Ok. If there is only a wall and no opening, and we’re supposed to not respond to walls, then if a girl gives only a wall we just let her go as a NO girl?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 12:22 pm

                Yes – and you should be ‘letting go’ all the time after every interaction

    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:17 am

      Everything about this is wrong. This is horny castrated chihuahua game. You’re trying to rape a wall that doesn’t have a hole on it. You’re desperately licking the bottom of a plate.

      You need a complete paradigm shift man.

      I can do a break down but first go over your own chat

      List the WALLS that she gives, and what you do with each one.
      List the instances of FREE VALIDATION that you give her, and what she does in return.
      List the instances of ASEXUAL RAPPORT that you initiate
      List the instances of CHASE (aka, when you over invest despite the girl setting a barrier / wall / boundary)

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:31 am

        Castrated Chihuahua? That was funny!

        Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
        Me: I found you ;-)
        //Going for rapport with free validation. An assumed wall that she is not nice and easy with me.

        Her: Hahahaha

        Me: This is you
        Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
        //Asexual rapport. Free validation.

        Her: Yes, that is me
        Her: Very beautiful
        //Wall: I am going for rapport and it only works if she reciprocates. She doesn’t, takes all the validation.

        Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
        //Chasing. Investing and going for rapport even with no reciprocation from her.

        Her: Good boy
        //Wall: Good boy is NOT sexy.

        Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
        //Chase here. Still trying to make the conversation work.

        Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
        //Wall: Not willing to invest.

        Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
        //Chase. Going for rapport after a wall.
        Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

        Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
        //Wall: We will not meet. You are chasing dude. It won’t work.

        Me: You like girls?!

        Her: No :D

        Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

        Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
        //Wall: I don’t care what you think.

        Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
        //Chase? I am qualifying myself here, maybe.
        Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
        //Chase. Going for asexual rapport.

        Her: Yes
        //Yes answer. Brief and blunt.

        Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
        Me: I like it

        Her: I have no possibility and no desire
        //Wall: You’re bottom guy.

        Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
        Me: [Angel Emoji]

        Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
        //Wall: you are not a smart man like you said you are above.

        Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
        Me: I am the boss of sexy
        //Chase: Qualifying myself too much.

        Her: Seriously?
        Her: [Troll face sticker]
        //Wall right here. Judging what I said, and judging it negatively.

        Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
        Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
        Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
        Me: Hahahah
        //Chase: trying to extend the conversation after a wall.

        Her: [Angry face sticker]

        Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
        Me: hahaha
        //The hahaha is breaking tension. Chasing right here. Also, without the “hahaha” this is a frame clash. So it is busting right into the wall head first.

        Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

        You need a complete paradigm shift man.

        Yohami. If you saw this text convo from someone you wanted to help, what would you tell them? What would they need to know to get their head out of their ass and get the paradigm shift?

        What would such a person need to understand, comprehend and hear to “get it”?

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:45 am

          I analyzed the text again. There might be improvement in my understanding here.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 12:24 pm

        Would be nice for me to also do a breakdown before you do yours and explain everything.

        But can only get to it a bit later on (few hours).

        Reply
36. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 11:50 am

    This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO.

    Also, Yohami, if you’d write about how to tell the difference between YES girls and NO girls in chat. And the difference between their walls, it would be very helpful.

    This is supposed to be an advanced skill that comes with years of practice. So advice about hints that show whether a girl is a YES or a time wasting NO girl that just wants validation will be epic, so we focus our energy on the right girls rather than become a chat buddy with all kinds of hoes.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:52 am

      “This is supposed to be an advanced skill that comes with years of practice. ”

      NO.

      Reply
37. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 1:38 pm

    Compliance request without attraction?
    A neg without attraction?

    Yohami, is it a rule that you only do compliance requests or negs after building attraction first?

    I thought if you’re a Top Guy, you assume attraction anyway.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 1:56 pm

      Name the instances in your chat where you’re assuming attraction

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        05/18/2018 at 2:34 pm

        I understand. I am assuming the opposite. That I have to do something in order to get her attracted / interested.

        Reply
38. Lucretius says:

    05/18/2018 at 4:54 pm

    @BlueValentine
    Here is my breakdown:

    [~~~~ Background ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    
    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.
    

    Given the above background of your interaction with this girl, it is clear that for the intended purpose of sex, you FAILED before even asking for her number.
    A girl saying NO when a guy asks for her number, is a clear NO.
    A girl giving her number to the guy means almost nothing (unless you have clear context).

    In the above case, the context is that she purposely left out 1 digit and had set a trap for you (WALL). You have therefore found yourself in a situation where it is LOSE or LOSE. You have to make a decision to either:
    1. Not contact her and therefore never interact with her again; or
    2. Try to find the last digit and contact her (you chose this one)

    The trap is set for you to giver her validation and ego boost. She has baited you by giving you ‘a hot girl number’ with 1 digit missing to make you jump over this hoop (ie. she wants to know if she can make a random guy chase her – which you did).

    If you had understood the trap, a suggested approach while still with her in front of you was to look up like you thinking of something, scroll through your phone number and bring up her contact, ask her to confirm this is the one, then delete it in front of her, say something that you changed your mind and move on with your day. This would of robbed her of whatever thrill or validation that she would of been seeking.

    If you were going to try to contact her by completing the number, your opening line would have to be so well structured and hit so many funny points that it would make her to engage just a little bit more with you for her to verify if her initial assessment of you was correct or not (ie. you make her doubt not giving you the full number). However, if you had this skill of words for an opening line, she would not have missed a digit because you would of used this skill in person.

    So in summary, you were DEAD even before the text exchange started.
    It was all downhill from here with YOU pressing your foot down on the gas and then hitting the NITRO button :-/

    [~~~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me : I found you ;-)

    Her: Hahahaha
    

    Your opening here is bad. Using the ‘that is so nice and easy with me’ is confirming to the girl that you are grasping for something, anything to start the conversation. Her hahahaha is her LAUGHING AT YOU and the situation that she was able to make you do what she wanted (ie. she made a random guy chase after her). At this point she has already been validated and has been able to fight off ‘DREAD’ for a while longer knowing that ‘she has it’ (to make guys do what she wants).

    Given the context already explained in the background, there is practically nothing that would turn the interaction around.

    [~~~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : This is you
    Me : [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful
    

    This shows how much you value her (ie. hot girl) as you spent time finding a cartoon photo of her.
    She takes the extra validation giving her again an ego boost.

    [~~~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    Her: Good boy
    

    This makes no sense and is just random. The conversation with the girl should be ‘thematic’ (ie. following some kind of theme or word play). The themes would change throughout the discussion.

    This is just you inserting random information into it. It almost feels like you are verbally filling in a dating profile via text and expecting her to reciprocate. Her response shows very clearly that you are looking for reciprocation but she teases you along because you are chasing her and she is rewarding you for it (like a little dog wagging its tail). She wants you to keep doing what you are doing (which is chase her).

    [~~~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
    

    This is again very random and not following any kind of flow.
    She is following the ‘magical powers’ theme by saying she ‘is not willing to use them on you’. She is clearly taunting you at this point (with sex) wanting you to say more things that has you chasing her.

    [~~~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me : But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
    

    This is again non-sense but at this point, I think that you saw that she was not reciprocating with any information from her side so you decided to punish her by saying she is not good looking. This is actually a common reaction when guy advances, girl rejects then guy tells girl she is ugly / boring / stupid / etc.
    Girl knows this is non-sense and recognises it for what it is (guy is hurt and is throwing cups, vases and xbox at her). She knows it is non-sense because you stopped her in person, asked for her phone number (which she gave with a digit missing), you filled in the digit, told her how hot she is by showing her a photo look-alike of her.

    And then you tell her she is ‘not good looking’. Her response is telling your off while also smiling to what is happening. But you are seeing smilies and think everything is good so you continue.

    [~~~~ Segment 6 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : You like girls?!

    Her: No :D

    Me : i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
    

    This is again random. You are also bringing up OVERT sexualization (like girls + lesbian) which is 100% bottom guy and reconfirms her view of you all along. Overt sex talk is during / after sex. Everything before is covert (inuendo).

    You are also using smilies constantly likely because she is doing it, but she is doing it because she has 100% control of you and nothing todo with liking you.

    [~~~~ Segment 7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
    Me : Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Her: Yes
    

    Your thank you confirms that you dont understand what is going on and then you are bragging about yourself.
    She does not contradict you because she knows that if she does this, you will likely try to show her how smart thinking and cool man you are.
    She instead answers your cooking question with a yes wanting to know what you going to follow this up with.

    [~~~~ Segment 8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me : I like it

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire
    

    This is again random talk about food without any kind of flow from lesbian (!!) to cooking (WTF!!).
    She is just going along to see how ridiculous the conversation can get at this point.

    [~~~~ Segment 9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me : [Angel Emoji]

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
    

    Here again is just random stuff strung together without any structure.
    She responds by taunting you further on you being a smart man. She is also mocking you by calling herself a human (while you are non-human). This shows where you stand with her.

    [~~~~ Segment 10 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me : I am the boss of sexy

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]
    

    This set of lines is also so disjointed that I also say ‘Seriously? WTF?!’
    The [Troll face sticker] is her taunting you some more.

    [~~~~ Segment 11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Wow, such romantic stickers…
    Me : It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me : And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me : Hahahah

    Her: [Angry face sticker]
    

    The lines are also disjointed. The use of ‘vampire girl + drink blood to recover leg’ is a good combination but has no place in this interaction whatsoever.
    Also you laughing at your own jokes pushes you lower. She responds with [Angry face sticker] to bait you into apologizing to hot girl.

    [~~~~ Segment 12 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me : hahaha

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
    

    The only part that would be ‘acceptable’ in the above exchange is that you did not take back your ‘vampire’ statement.
    Again laughing at your own joke also shows that you think you are funny but are not. Watch comedians, they do not laugh at their jokes (extremely rare to see a professional comedian laughing at his / her jokes while telling them)

    [~~~~ Final Notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    If I think through everything, you should of not opened the text exchange and focused on what you did in person that could of been better to adjust for next time.
    As you did open because you did not understand the situation, the only thing that you could of done was have a laugh at yourself after she said ‘hahaha’ and said something like ‘you got me ;-)’ while knowing full well that she has zero interest in you. At this point it could of been a practice round for some humour but your creativity / humour level is so low that it would not have helped.

    In general from reading all your posts, I think that you are misreading social situations in general and without being able to understand socially what is going on between two or more people (social / asexually / sexually), I cannot see how you would progress with girls. I would suggest to stop trying to pick up girls for something like 3 months (also no reading on game) and just interact with girls socially to get more attuned of the social nuances. Once you have a better feel of social interactions, then start everything again from nothing.

    This random stuff approach and asking for RULES that can be executed like a robot without context will go nowhere.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 5:31 pm

      All on point. How do you use bold text btw?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 5:39 pm

        for italics, use [left than]em[greater than] blah blah blah [left than]/em[greater than]
        for bold, use [left than]strong[greater than] blah blah blah [left than]/strong[greater than]

        replace the words [left than] and [greater than] using the html brackets. Everything between the opening and closing brackets will have the formatting.

        Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/18/2018 at 6:06 pm

      Thank you everyone who did their analysis of my text exchange. It is very helpful.

      You are also bringing up OVERT sexualization (like girls + lesbian) which is 100% bottom guy

      Overt sexualization is bottom guy? Why? How?

      I thought Top Guy leads with his sexuality.

      Here again is just random stuff strung together without any structure.

      Ok, so if I swing my dick, I have also to keep it thematic? Is that an important point to keep in mind?

      I thought swinging your dick means trying different things to see what will arouse the girl, which implies a bit of randomness in changing topics / behaviors / actions. If it’s not working, swing your dick.

      Again laughing at your own joke also shows that you think you are funny but are not. Watch comedians, they do not laugh at their jokes (extremely rare to see a professional comedian laughing at his / her jokes while telling them)

      RSD Julien Blanc specifically said to laugh at your own jokes. It shows you are amusing yourself. He literally said: “Yes, the common advice is to not laugh at your own joke. But I want you to laugh at your own joke. Laugh at your own jokes first. Amuse yourself when around people.” It was specifically stated by him.

      In general from reading all your posts, I think that you are misreading social situations in general and without being able to understand socially what is going on between two or more people (social / asexually / sexually), I cannot see how you would progress with girls.

      I don’t agree with your view on this, on me.

      Nash shared in this blog that his game is good when a girl likes him, and it is quite bad when the girl doesn’t.

      Me too, it’s my situation. It’s like a girl who likes me, who I have great chemistry with, inspired great game out of me.

      My goal is to make it more conscious so I improve with more girls, not just Yes girls.

      Again, my stats are 1 lay out of 150-200 approaches. Nash’s stats are the same. The fact that I fail with 199 girls including this one doesn’t make me socially inept. I still get 1 new lay a month with a girl that is younger and hotter than me. So statistically, again, you are wrong: those are good game stats by Daygame cold approach standards. And I will improve and get better with optimism and perseverance.

      I really don’t like this negative labeling of people who are trying to learn game as No Hopers or telling them to stop talking to girls. You can make people give up this journey by recklessly spouting such bad advice.

      A better advice would be compassion: It’s hard. It takes time. You’ll grow into a man who can do all this and more. So be kind to yourself. Be patient. Always learn. Always get more experience. And never give up. You’ll make it in the end no matter how slow it goes.

      Anyone reading this comment and is thinking he sucks should read that last sentence. It’s hard. But the journey is so rewarding.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 6:20 pm

        My breakdown was my own personal opinion based on what you wrote and as it is just my opinion, you are free to ignore it as you want.

        From reading multiple of your interactions on various posts, it seems like a consistent point where you are not seeing the social context / thread going on hence you are just trying random stuff. Again, this is just my opinion and you are free to ignore it.

        Specifically on this:
        I really don’t like this negative labeling of people who are trying to learn game as No Hopers or telling them to stop talking to girls. You can make people give up this journey by recklessly spouting such bad advice.

        Not a SINGLE WORD of the above is mine – It is ALL YOURS.
        You can go back and see word by word how you have decided to interpret what I have said and turned it into this paragraph of yours, where you have given yourself the label of ‘No Hopers’. Also, I didnt say ‘stop talking to girls’, I said the opposite…

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 6:41 pm

          Thanks. No Hoper is a reference to someone else. Not you. I was talking in general.

          By the way, if you’ve read Krauser’s memoirs you can see we cannot get all girls. Often, we fuck up. It’s part of growth and of this journey. Nobody is 100% perfect or consistent.

          In all cases, Daygame is fun as hell. I highly recommend it ;)

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/18/2018 at 6:50 pm

            Yes, ofcourse … it was just me misunderstand your direct response under my breakdown where you use the term ‘you’ (multiple times) in your direct response to my breakdown where I am the only one having given general advise thus far on talking to girls.

            Anyways, yohami likely typing his breakdown and the interaction will move forward between you and him

            Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 7:08 pm

              It’s ok Lucretius. Your breakdown was brilliant. Very very good.

              Thank you. And also to Flat Lander who did a breakdown before you.

              And to others.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:57 pm

                If this is the direction you want to take discussions, it is your choice.

                On a different note, I personally hope you are able to work things out where you have gone wrong from the breakdown I provided (everyone will have their own opinion). Your prior posts in the mormon thread that sparked continuous discussion between yourself and Yohami, really helped me see where I had been going wrong when interacting with girls in the sexual context. It was the ‘push’ forward for me making my posts here that allowed me to clear my head space to correct what I am doing wrong and gave me new concepts to work with.

                Perhaps, in the future you will post future chats (either on this thread or another) that have gone better for yourself.

        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 6:42 pm

          Also I really appreciate your breakdown. Thank you.

          Reply
39. YOHAMI says:

    05/18/2018 at 7:50 pm

    Blue Valentine, how did you know that the number was missing 1 digit? did she tell you so when giving you her number?

    Reply
40. YOHAMI says:

    05/19/2018 at 7:37 am

    Questions for Blue,

    1) When the girl gave you the number missing 1 digit, what does that mean?

    2) When you do the work and jump through the hoops the girl puts you through, like trying 1-9 numbers and ‘reaching her’ ‘finding her’ finally, do you think that amount of work validates you, or invalidates you on the eyes of the girl?

    3) Is banging 1 in 200 girls you approach a reasonable number for a beginner? what should be a reasonable number? what’s a pro number?

    4) Do you know any men in real life who are good with women?

    5) Are you still living with the people who are putting you down constantly? if so why?

    6) What do you want to get out of Game?

    7) When you are texting the girls ‘randomly’ and ‘to see what sticks’ what are you expecting to happen? what does it mean that something ‘will stick’? or, you engage in frame clash with all these girls – what are you expecting to get out of it? is that you waiting that one of them will play along and say yes to everything you’re saying? or one that will accept all the things you do for them and date you? again, what is what you think will happen when you text like that?

    8) Does your texting match how you game in real life? aka random, kissing butt, frame clashing, free validation, asexual rapport, chase?

    9) How good looking are you from 1-10? ask other people (try hot or not)

    Cheers man

    Reply
41. YOHAMI says:

    05/19/2018 at 9:58 am

    So, here’s a fucking manifesto

    The stuff happening in the Blue’s texting game matches a lot of what I saw in Cobrantula’s texting, as well as Robinhood. Is there a reason for that? maybe you’re all following a ‘daygame’ rulebook or something. Lucretius texts had a flavor of this as well.

    What am I talking about?

    Disjointed. Random. Neggy. Obtuse. Non flirty. Chasing. Going for rapport. Etc. There’s a pattern here. I will call it:

    BUTTON MASHING GAME

    The good news is that because it’s all the same crap all over again, the remedy is the same. The solution is the same. Here’s it:

    ========================================================

    You need to learn to be an attractive man.

    So this is not just about ‘what phrases can you say’. You’re going to dance a courtship routine with a girl. So you can’t just memorize a few moves and then do them on your own at random times. That’s now what the dance is about.

    What is the dance about you say?

    She will screen you and compare you against all the other men she can also have, see how you measure against them, she’ll offer you her fertility but ‘puzzled’ in between walls and obstacles and you have to do the right combination.

    This is why you can’t ‘button mash’ your way into her. You do the wrong sequence at the wrong moment and it’s over. And she will explicitly set you up in situations where you either do the right sequence or it’s over, and she will do that over and over and over again till forever.

    Do you understand?

    You need to LOOK at her and understand what is going on. You need to KNOW what you are doing. You can’t button mash.

    At the end of every interaction with a girl you need to KNOW what went right and what went wrong. You need to know what she responded positively to, and negatively too, you need to have a map, at the end, of where are the doors and what are the walls. Even if you failed, you need to know why. And if you ‘succeed’ and bang her, you also need to know why.

    If you don’t know what is going on, then you’re not doing Game.

    But I said you have to learn to be an attractive man.

    How do you do that?

    1) You need to learn to be a sociable human first.

    2) Then you need to learn to be a dominant human who is at the top of the human hierarchy and it’s associated behaviors.

    3) Then you need to learn to express sexually from that position.

    4) Then you need skill and experience

    I can succint the ‘bottom mash game pattern’ like this:

    You are acting like a non-fully human being, doing socially inept interactions, acting as someone who’s at the bottom pole of the hierarchy and needs to please and kiss butt, unable to express sexual interest in a way that is not ‘pushing against rejection’ or ‘incorporating defeat in your own intent’, plus unskilled at it

    Do you see it? This is why you can’t just do ‘1000 more approaches’ and get good. It’s like going to the gym for 1000 days but doing the wrong stuff and eating pizza. This won’t work.

    You need to FOCUS and do it right. Like you’re playing and instrument. You need to do the RIGHT THING again and again and again and again until it becomes muscle memory and it becomes an integral part of who you are.

    You won’t hit that with button mashing quick fix parrot game. And you wont have success with girls either. 1 in 200 means you’re disposable and you’re just being used by a random girl who couldn’t ABSOLUTELY do any better. Don’t be a fucking trashcan.

    So how do you fix it.

    Drop Game for a wile. Fix the stuff from the ground up.

    YOU NEED TO BE A SOCIABLE HUMAN

    Become good at dealing with people, reacting on your feet to social interactions, being comfortable with being the center of attention, and being a supportive character, learn to chit chat, deep chat, make jokes, etc. How? meet more people, put yourself in uncomfortable situations, etc.

    Doing pickup is useless here and doesn’t count, because in pickup you’re interacting with a predetermined formula and a predetermined goal. Pickup means you’re trying to do the same thing again and again and again to get better at it.

    What I recommend is taking an ‘improv’ or improvisation theatre course and hit it hard. To supplement that join as many social groups as you can and do as weird shit as you possibly can.

    What you need to get from this is to channel what it is to be human, how humans respond, etc, need to be able to read human interactions. This is the basic cure for the ‘randomness’ of the button mashing game.

    YOU NEED TO LEARN TO BE A DOMINANT HUMAN WHO IS AT THE TOP OF THE HUMAN HIERARCHY AND IT’S ASSOCIATED BEHAVIORS

    Besides social interactions being ‘easy’, they need to be easy for you when you’re in power. The tricky part here is that as soon as a human gets in power they become an asshole. People are not used to have power and become the worst part of themselves when get get a taste of it and become abusive and hideous.

    Then some people don’t want to touch having power, I hear the ‘I don’t want to be alpha’ all the time, or “I am not top guy” which is fucking nonsense.

    If you want to be good at Game then you need to be an attractive man which means you must become a ‘self reassured, dominant, confident man who takes shit from no one’ and there’s one, and only one, way to get that done which is to become the guy who is at the top of the pyramid.

    And you must go there in behavior and socially.

    How?

    Stop being a fucking victim.

    Take fucking full control of your life and your circumstances.

    Focus on who you want to be. Find out what your boundaries are. Enforce your boundaries. Kick out the people out of your life who wont respect your boundaries.

    Put yourself in life situations where you are the one in charge, and where choices and decisions have repercussions and you’re the one to blame and to point at when things go right and when they go wrong.

    Organize events. Be the boss of the hobby club. Be the master of the ‘dungeons and dragons’ party. Make parties. Be the one volunteering to the ‘improv’ sessions so all the eyes are on you. Be the lead singer on a band. Be the guy with the photography project that everyone is going to look at. Be the center.

    Then find the way to be at EASE there.

    Learn to expect that your voice is heard, that your commands are obeyed, that your desires matter, learn to grow appreciation for when people are in compliance, learn how to reward people for wanting to play along with you. Learn to be GOOD at being on top.

    But how to speed things up?

    In my case I made a list of all the behaviors that were ‘bottom guy’ and I just stopped doing these.

    The social rules are hardcoded and if you’re acting like bottom guy, then you get slotted as a bottom guy and get the associated rewards. So, try stopping all bottom guy behavior.

    You’ll have a lot of ‘free time’ and anxiety. That’s fine.

    You’ll fill that vacuum with more top guy and leadership activities, more social groups, more high-life type of stuff. But first you have to drop the bad framing you set for yourself. Yes, you’re the one framing you there. It’s you. The rest of the world is just playing along with you. You told them who you were, now they play along.

    What are the behaviors attached to top guy / dominant male / top of the hierarchy?

    Entitlement, dominance, sense of humor, playfulness, asertiveness, confidence, swagger. Then breaking rapport, non-chase, self-sustained, boundary pushing, boundary asserting, attention seeking (and mastery) and so on.

    YOU NEED TO LEARN TO EXPRESS YOURSELF SEXUALLY AS A DESIRABLE MAN

    When bottom guy expresses sexual interest it’s always as if you’re doing them a favor. Or, you’re paying them back for some effort or sacrifice they made. Or they are expressing their pain that they can’t get what they want in hopes that someone will throw them a bone. Or it comes as a ‘trick’ like it’s a con-job, how to fool a girl or how to find the flaw in a girl or how to make her weak so bottom guy can get away with a quasi rape.

    What all this comes from is from being an undesirable male.

    All this is an undesirable male trying to have sex.

    There’s no amount of Game that will fix it.

    So how does the desirable man express his sexuality?

    Where bottom guy is always interacting with rejection, top guy is always interacting with desire.

    But how?

    Fucking laser focus.

    When you interact with the girl, you ping her desire, instead of pinging her rejection.

    But how?

    You flirt. Aka, you express nuanced sexual interest. When she reacts positively, you invest more.

    That thing that sounds so simple ‘when she reacts positively, you invest more’ is the whole thing.

    1) You ping. You tease. You flirt. You initiate. You display. You propose. You invite her to dance.

    2) She reciprocates. She opens. She complies. She follows. She responds with ‘arousal’

    3) You double down on her YES, which makes it bigger. You TAKE ACTION and escalate.

    4) Iterate

    Without this in place, or what bottom guy would do goes like this

    1) You go against her wall trying to climb it or smash it or punish her for having a wall, you go too far, or don’t go at all, try to make the ho say no, or are scared of the ho saying no

    2) She sets a wall because what is she supposed to do with this crap?

    3) Iterate

    Do you see it?

    YOU NEED SKILL AND EXPERIENCE

    You need to be repeating the whole thing, all at once. Being sociable, being in power, and being sexual. Being sociable, being in power, and being sexual. Being social, being in power, and sexual. Power, social, sexual.

    You need to hammer the right archetype and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat.

    And with every iteration, like when you’re gaining any other skill, new things come clearer to you.

    And you can’t do this with ‘daygame’ or ‘pickup’ it’s not enough.

    You need to be on this train from the moment you open your eyes in the morning, to the moment you close your eyes. It needs to be all-life encompassing.

    Because this isn’t about ‘banging girls’ this is about WHO YOU ARE.

    You need to be social, in power, and sexual. Always.

    Enter a social interaction? be social. Make it interesting. Make them laugh. Learn something new. Touch people

    Enter a social interaction? be in power. Make it work. Enforce boundaries. Test boundaries. Inject humor. Draw attention. Make everyone like pleasing you.

    Enter a social interaction? are they cute girls? Flirt. Make sexual remarks. Arouse them. When they switch to ‘yes’ even a little, and they ALWAYS DO, then double down, raise the temperature, then let them go, then iterate.

    Watch every fucking single guy who is good with women.

    SOCIAL.
    IN POWER.
    SEXUAL.

    ========================================================

    And now the most painful thing I’ve read in a month. Blue’s texting paradigm.

    ========================================================

    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult.

    That’s her problem, not yours.

    And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her.

    This is frame clash, aka you going against her walls and putting walls to her walls. Do this only when you are going to arouse her with it. So, are you trying to arouse her, or are you just naturally attracted to a girl’s defenses? are you trying to arouse her, or are you trying to bring her defenses down?

    Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

    Did she tell you that the number was missing a digit? was in in purpose?

    Is this how she would treat Leonardo Dicaprio? if not, what does that say about how she looks at you?

    Guys get confused here “but I am not Dicaprio”. The point is that your BEHAVIOR has to be in match with top guy, or your behavior will be unattractive. Capisce?

    So she may not treat you like Dicaprio, but you have to reply as if you are, which makes her align with you and treat you like you are. This is just about aligning her behavior with who you really are, and you have to be THE FUCKING MAN.

    Her: Here’s my number, without the last digit
    Me: Well I can’t call you like that can I
    Her: Try the numbers 1-9 and you’ll find me
    Me: What’s in it for me?
    Her: .. that you will talk to me?
    Me: Im talking to you now. You’re silly (pass her the phone)
    Me: Put your whole number or forget about it.

    Be the fucking man.

    Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me: I found you ;-)

    Your impression with her was pathetic enough she set a wall to her fucking phone number.
    Now you’re showing her you’ll go the extra mile and jump through the hoops.
    And you even ‘flirt’ with that emoticon to that. You’re flirting to the wall. You’re rewarding bad behavior. You are telling her ‘do more of this, I like it’. Like a submissive dog. This shit is infuriating for me, and repulsive to the bone for women, which means

    Me: I found your number, where’s my blowjob?

    Her: Hahahaha

    You’re dealing with an EVIL motherfucker. Is this the 1 in 200 you can bang?

    This is the kind of motherfucker evil bitch you have to stay away from.

    Me: This is you
    Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    This is free validation. But it shows you put the extra effort in finding a cartoon so you’re putting her forward up on a pedestal. Like doing the pickup, dealing with a bad phone number is not enough, then putting the work like a good dog and getting a machiavellian ‘hahaha’ is not enough, you want to sweeten the deal even more and put extra fucking work and put her on a pedestal even more.

    If anything the reverse would have worked. Neg the shit out of her with an ugly picture. This would have been ‘better’ but we’re dealing with a bitch in a broken frame. This is not a situation where you should be ‘gaming’

    Me: (picture of a fat woman in bed)
    Me: Remember to exercise or you’re become like this

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful

    She takes the free validation and gives nothing in return

    Me: Eh sorry, I meant this one (pic of something outrageous)

    It’s not that negging is the only way to deal with girls: We’re dealing with a girl who is pushing down and needs to be brought down. This is a simple dominance contest. She’s pushing down, you push her down.

    What you’re doing, Blue, is rolling on the floor with your belly up.

    Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK IS THIS.

    I read that this is you ‘swinging your dick’. Nope. ‘Swinging’ is about expressing your ‘social, sexual, in power’ vibe with some story telling, teasing, messing with her, crossing boundaries, bossing her around, flirting, negging, etc, all the small but fun stuff that happens in social / sexual interactions when you’re not having sex but are going to have it (you need exposure to that world if you don’t know what Im talking about, go where players fuck the bitches and look at them in action, please).

    Your line is random asexual statements. There’s nothing she can do with them. Maybe you’re expecting that she says “oooohh I love parks, parks are the best!!!” ? should she orgasm with the ice cream line? are you setting a boundary by saying no to chocolate? what the fuck is going on?

    Her: Good boy

    She’s a savage. There you go, pushing down just for the sake of it. Good dog.

    Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Random jump. This is a feminine line by the way. You are the one arousing her, she’s the one evaluating you. Your job is also to find if she’s receptive, and you find that out by ‘swinging dick’ (not talking about parks and icecream) and seeing what she responds to. The only thing she’s been responsive so far is to push you down, while you greatly help her do so.

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)

    And she does it again. Down you go. More walls for you. The wink is an invitation for you to try again, so she pushes down again. Great game you’re playing here man. Nope.

    Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Random jump again. Your first line is FREE VALIDATION. The second line tries to rob the validation away from her. Are you expecting that she will jump “nooo please don’t take away the free validation…. please get drunk so I can look cute for you”???

    Because the line is free validation with a hint of neg on it, you can use it to FLIRT in a different setup (not here). If you’re in some other place with some other girl in a semi formal environment you could perfectly say this

    Me: You know, with a couple beers on me you’d be damn cute ;-)

    She’d smile and think you’re such a badass and drip wet a little.

    Not here.

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

    She actually ESCALATES your wall, see? you tried to do a neg, now she increases the gap, so now you’d have to jump HARDER. She adds THREE emoticons now which is your invitation to keep filling that gap hader. How desperate can she make you?

    This stuff is like the completely opposite of what actual seduction looks like.

    To bang the girl you ping her interest, she gives you an opening, you escalate, so the opening gets bigger.

    With this psycho bitch paired to your bottom castrated puppy mindset, you ping her wall, she increases the WALL and then you keep dancing and escalating on rejection. LOL!

    And this is fantastic to illustrate the point further:

    Me: You like girls?!

    Random. Here you’re looking for ANOTHER WALL that is not even there, or, you’re looking for ADDITIONAL CRITERIA she may be rejecting you on.

    Where a top guy / top frame / social power sexual guy would be looking for ADDITIONAL OPENINGS or more arousal spots or more things she’d say yes to etc, you keep finding more rejection points, and trying to bring more walls to the table.

    What the fuck!

    Her: No :D

    She loves. Burn the witch.

    Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Now try to turn the wall into a flirt / neg.

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)

    She’s getting bored. You need to get more creative on different ways she can reject you. Try harder.

    Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)

    You’re trying to validate yourself to contrast how much she’s putting you down. This is a sane instinct. Use this instinct to not let yourself involved in games like the one you’re playing here

    Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Random. The ‘sick girl’ means ‘you remember and you care’

    Her: Yes
    Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me: I like it

    Nobody gives a fuck. I wonder if all the back and forth so far makes you think she’s ‘invested’ and will play along with your call to action. The call to action in itself is fine, but it’s random / misplaced / socially inept placed here considering what’s going on.

    You’re playing a game where she gives you a hoop to jump and you jump it, just so she can push you down and give you another hoop. She doesn’t give a fuck about what you want, desire, etc. Any subject is just a way that she’ll use to reject you again, and she expects you to be happy about it.

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire

    Trapped in a loop

    Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me: [Angel Emoji]

    “I only talk to you” again you’re trying to take away the free validation by making it conditional. Is that how you seduce girls? give them a lot of free candy till they are fat, then you threaten to take the candy away?

    Is that true to your core mechanics? did someone raise you like that? are you open to maybe ditching this whole approach to life?

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere

    You notice this? the ONLY thing you’ve asserted yourself on was that you’re a smart guy. And now a few moments later she is using it to neg you.

    Can you see what type of person she is?

    Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me: I am the boss of sexy

    Now you’re trying to switch to a dominant position. It’s a weak attempt but follow the trajectory. We started filling random numbers on a bad phone lead, then sending cartoons and giving free shit, to finding new excuses on how to reject you, to trying to assert your own value, to now being domineering. That’s a clear path. So – you set a trap with candy, then try to be a kids abuser or something.

    You could bring it up a notch and buy a pedo-van.

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]

    She’s not happy you’re changing the game

    Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…

    You’re back to pushover mode. She sets a wall, now you’re rewarding her for the wall. You think walls are ladders. VERY interesting stuff.

    Girl gives wall to guy.
    Guy tries to make love to the wall.

    It’s like when a dog tries to fuck someone’s leg.

    Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me: Hahahah

    Calling her a vampire is fitting.

    When Julian says ‘laugh of your own jokes’ – go find the charisma on command videos and find the types of humor. When you are saying a joke you have to find it funny yourself, so when you’re saying it the smile is building in your face. And your laugh, if you laugh, can be contagious and set the mood.

    That’s not what’s happening here though. The ‘hahaha’ comes across as you trying to fill her spot in the dance. She’s not playing along so you’re trying to be the girl

    Her: [Angry face sticker]

    Wall.

    Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me: hahaha

    Iterating on all fronts.
    “like when you’re angry” is rewarding the wall.
    “makes you look younger” is trying to neg to take the free validation away
    “hahaha” is you trying to fill in the gap because laughing is what she should be doing, if she was aroused at all

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

    Me: yes, your best years are behind you

    =========

    Blue, man, get out of this fucking trap.

    If you do 1000 interactions of this kind you’ll only get WORSE. And that’s on you.

    Focus on doing it right. Repeat the dance as it’s supposed to dance. This is not it. Do better.

    Cheers man.

    Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/19/2018 at 11:55 am

      Thank you Yohami. Very important info there. Will study it and apply.

      Reply
42. Lucretius says:

    05/19/2018 at 10:59 am

    On this part:
    
    … maybe you’re all following a ‘daygame’ rulebook or something. Lucretius texts had a flavor of this as well.

    What am I talking about?

    Disjointed. Random. Neggy. Obtuse. Non flirty. Chasing. Going for rapport. Etc. There’s a pattern here.

    The above in bold italics are definitely my self identified problems and they are from social conditioning with re-enforcement from ‘structured game’ of multiple authors.

    This I saw clearly with troublemaker chat where I had to physically force myself to flirt with her and then got stuck in the rapport trap.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/19/2018 at 11:11 am

      Yeah. Flirting with walls too!

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/19/2018 at 11:20 am

        From the bike chat correction attempt – yes, I understood the lesson ;-)

        One step at a time for me

        Reply
43. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 1:53 am

    @yohami:

    Just came back from a drinks event and found myself in a mixed experience. There are certainly many things that I need to fix in my verbal in-person interactions that perhaps you can provide some pointers.

    At this event, there was the troublemaker and also the polish posh girl were there. There was also another girl that I met there that was interested in me – will mention this in the set below.

    The drinks were at a bar and on arriving I specifically NOT talking to girls for 1-1.5 hours. Instead I am talking to guys and having to listen to them tell their boring things in my ear (job, industry, their work, etc). The reason I am doing this is because I see a lot of guys on arriving immediately start talking to girls and then changing every 15min to another group.

    One of the things that I am consciously doing while speaking to the guys, is moving myself into a ‘locked in’ position where I am leaned against the bar or chair (while standing) and having the guys around me talking to me. The purpose of this is for the optics of girls in the room seeing guys talking with me while I am relaxed and listening to each of the guys stories. This is again effectively differentiation and also signalling that I am leading the conversation and group (which I am).

    Polish
    On the polish, she came in much later than me and I saw her on the way to the toilet and then passed her on the way and she gave me a ‘hi look’. I just smiled and went onwards. On the way back from the toilet, I stopped and said hi and gave her three kisses on the cheeks. She then said ‘0.50 cents’ and when I looked at her thinking ‘what?’ she said ‘for the toilets’. I said to her ‘you owe me 0.50 cents for the kisses’. She then repeated her 0.50 cents request, I repeated that she owed me and I walked off into the crowd. For context, the polish girl was surrounded by 5 guys – note that it was just her and 5 guys around her (this is standard for her).

    I was off talking with other guy + girl groups and always making a point of sitting down next to the girl in whatever group I am in where I sitting side to side while other guys + girls are around me and the girl. During this time, I can see that the polish girl can see me and she is again constantly being swamped by guys. The guys however are getting better looking and are now at the ‘better looking, taller and wider’ than myself. I had moved around enough and then saw a guy sitting next to her (good looking guy). I went over and started talking to the guy (guy on purpose to avoid any unexpected reaction but also for the girl to see), asking his name and where he is from. Turns out I had met him before and we recognized each other. I was not speaking to the polish girl but this guy started to mention some words and then she was briefly roped into the conversation. He asked me if I knew her which I said yes and there was a little chat about how I met her before (red dress from before). I mentioned last time that she was tired some travelling and she responded that she was not tired today. Something must of clicked in his head because he asked me if I had met her in between drink events and I said no (translation = he asking if me + polish are dating). While we were talking somewhere around this point, the guy said something I called the polish girl ‘furniture’, beautiful furniture. The girl said something or other and then said something like ‘and I am furniture’. The good looking guy at this point left on his own. I then sat down next to her and then said something or other (cant remember but it was about 30sec or so) and then a guy from a few meters in front with another group signalled or mentioned something and she went over to talk to him. I didnt want to sit there waiting on my own (bad optics) or go after her and so then moved to another group.

    About an hour later, she was at the bar with another guy (different but still taller and wider than me) and I jumped into the group briefly (addressing the guy and then the girl) and asked for my 0.50 cent. She said that I owe her 0.50 cents. I then fained disbelief and addressed the guy ‘can you believe this? she takes kisses from my and now doesnt want to pay the 0.50 cents’. The guy obviously hitting on the girl says that he believes her and not me. I then close with ‘watch yourself with this one’ and I walk off.

    About 30min later, I am speaking with another girl (bulgarian) and I can tell that she likes me. She had a male friend with her (long time male friend). The guy wasnt really talking much and I called him shy or other. He talked back on it but said that the bulgarian girl was not shy at all (guy was friendly). I challenged the bulgarian girl and said ‘you see that girl over there by the bar – the posh dressed one? She owed me 5 bucks. Go over there and ask her for the 5 bucks that is mine. Point to me when you ask. I spun the story further and told her to say that she was my ‘debt collector’. Bulgarian girl (good looking) took the challenge and went to the bar and started talking with the polish (i couldnt hear anything but could see the two talking). Bulgarian girl came back and said that ‘you shouldnt joke with the Polish (she referring to the nationality)’. I asked why but no specific details came out except ‘some people are just sensitive’. I took it that the polish girl was shocked (+ unhappy) in having this done. I continued speaking with bulgarian girl (will write more later).

    Towards the end of the night, I went to say bye to her but she was looking away pretending not to notice me. I moved a little bit to the side and then she saw me and said bye. I walked out and while waiting to cross the street, the polish girl came out with the guy from bar mentioned earlier and went off. Polish girl saw me on my own crossing street heading out.

    The polish girl was certainly interested to see me again and kept giving me glances throughout the above period (over 2.5 hour period). From the above, I did want to keep all the interaction short and the whole 0.50 cents ‘angle’ was a way for me to push her boundaries (as recommended) because she is use to guys falling over themselves for her (ie. she is the chooser). I dont know if I am pushing the boundaries correct here or not. I also dont have ‘verifiable proof’ of doing the above causing ‘vagina to get wet’ so all I am doing here is based on theory that I personally have not been able to prove out myself as of yet. What I do now is that I need to be different from every other guy that is falling over her + swarming her at every drinks event. For all intended purposes, I think nothing is going to happen here although I need to figure out where things can be improved.

    Troublemaker
    On this girl, I am getting annoyed. She acknowledged me while I was still in the early part of the night with guys around me but when I went to speak with her and the group she was with, she was distant and saying whatever or disregarding anything I said (but not with others). During this whole time, there was some guy that was ‘stuck to her’ constantly and throughout the night right up to the end. When I was going to leave, I asked who this guy was and she said ‘a friend’ but they exchanged details on leaving. Not much is happening between her and me on this and I just decided to head out. Also I said that ‘she should ask her friend if he has magical powers’. This was 100% bottom guy from me and reflex (likely from the other time with polish). My general annoyance with this girl is that she is always said “meh whatever” with facial expressed but over texts is interacting with me as posted. Here it has been going on for long enough that I just dont want to interact with her as I can feel that I am being played for cheap entertainment.

    Bulgarian
    This bulgarian girl liked me from the start and shows that my initial interaction goes well. We were talking a bit and I had in my mind to not fall into the rapport trap but girls just kept asking the same questions:
    – Where you from?
    – What you do here?
    – How long you been here?
    – What do you do for hobbies?
    – etc

    With this girl, I was constantly trying todo ‘rapport + break rapport’ and maintain control of the conversation. I was also trying to redirect the conversation towards something non-boring (not done very well in the moment) and around dating. At one point I asked her to describe me and she said that I was energetic and went out and did stuff (which is true and see talking her cues from my verbals but also the 5 bucks story). She said she liked this. She went to toilet and came back and was standing. I tapped the bar stool next to me and she sat down. Effectively, I had good compliance. Given this point, I said “When are you free? I take you out”. Her english was not 100% so I had to say it again in a round about way. She then literally tried to tell me her scheduled and ask me for something during the day (impossible for me) because she works at night (in a restaurant). I said it is impossible during the day for me (I cannot just say whatever else she is going to think it is fine during day). There was also a tussle of location as she lives far away. I was saying to come to a central point whereas she wanted me to travel out. I didnt want to argue on this point and said ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She then again tried the same argument to get me to travel to her and I said the same ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She was then continuing to try to say when something can be done and I told her to work it out and then let me know. I asked again for her number (3rd time and last), she paused which caused me to wait and then she said what about her taking my number. I stopped for a moment and thought this is going to go nowhere but entered my number in her phone. I then said that I was going to go mingle but left shortly afterwards.

    general rapport problem
    Again there is a general rapport problem in my in person verbals. Given that it is a constant pattern, i need to have a story prepared for each possible question and then a followup topic to take back control of the discussion.

    What is strange for me is that the guys who are talking with these girls (polish + troublemaker), they are getting numbers and in the case of the polish, they are continuing the drinks somewhere else (dont know if it is leading to sex or not) but they are moving forward where I am keeping interactions shorter and choosing not to ask for their number. The point of this statement is that it is making me doubt somewhere something about the in person conversations that I need to have. My mind was trying to have verbally the text chats type of discussions which is just not enough on the time scale (ie. text chat can be had with content that only fills 2min of talking whereas in person it feels like 30-45min of talking is required. This gap has me concerned).

    Any thoughts on everything above?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:54 am

      Part I Polish posh attention whore

      Just came back from a drinks event and found myself in a mixed experience. There are certainly many things that I need to fix in my verbal in-person interactions that perhaps you can provide some pointers.
      Stop focusing on your verbals. There is no magic incantation that will make you attractive.
      It’s your inner game that requires an overhaul.

      The drinks were at a bar and on arriving I specifically NOT talking to girls for 1-1.5 hours. Instead I am talking to guys and having to listen to them tell their boring things in my ear (job, industry, their work, etc). The reason I am doing this is because I see a lot of guys on arriving immediately start talking to girls and then changing every 15min to another group.

      Get Mystery Method. You are doing group dynamics wrong. By talking and listening to boring guys, you are
      – killing your vibe
      – killing your status in the eyes of the girls who observe you. All they see is a nerd talking to nerds.

      Quick fix: roll in with your own crew, make a ruckus, open mixed sets, open ugly girls, make noise, be trouble.

      One of the things that I am consciously doing while speaking to the guys, is moving myself into a ‘locked in’ position where I am leaned against the bar or chair (while standing) and having the guys around me talking to me. The purpose of this is for the optics of girls in the room seeing guys talking with me while I am relaxed and listening to each of the guys stories. This is again effectively differentiation and also signalling that I am leading the conversation and group (which I am).

      The positioning is a good start. However if you’re not having fun (having to listen to them tell their boring things), you’re not leading anything, just associating with nerds, thus becoming a nerd.

      Polish
      [blabla]
      She is an attention whore. You are giving her attention. She is also checking regularly if you are giving her attention. She is grooming you to be one of her orbiters.

      *On the polish, she came in much later than me and I saw her on the way to the toilet and then passed her on the way and she gave me a ‘hi look’. I just smiled and went onwards. *

      So, she doesn’t even talk to you and you reward her with a smile. Gay.
      Better: Make a fart noise as she passes by

      On the way back from the toilet, I stopped and said hi and gave her three kisses on the cheeks.

      Chasing hard, man.
      So. Gay.

      Better: Did you wash these hands, dirty girl?

      *She then said ‘0.50 cents’ and when I looked at her thinking ‘what?’ she said ‘for the toilets’. I said to her ‘you owe me 0.50 cents for the kisses’. She then repeated her 0.50 cents request, I repeated that she owed me and I walked off into the crowd. *

      She’s snatching frame and bullying you. You’re playing at her level (“You owe me.” “No, you owe ME), which is passable. Instead you shouldn’t entertain or listen to anything she says. Look up amused mastery.

      For context, the polish girl was surrounded by 5 guys – note that it was just her and 5 guys around her (this is standard for her).
      Massive.
      Attention.
      Whore.

      If you had better game, you would work to destroy her sense of entitlement and neg her hard.

      I was off talking with other guy + girl groups and always making a point of sitting down next to the girl in whatever group I am in where I sitting side to side while other guys + girls are around me and the girl.
      You are validating them for free. You are chasing without any sign of interest from them.

      During this time, I can see that the polish girl can see me and she is again constantly being swamped by guys. The guys however are getting better looking and are now at the ‘better looking, taller and wider’ than myself. I had moved around enough and then saw a guy sitting next to her (good looking guy).
      She’s playing you and all the guys like a toy.

      I went over and started talking to the guy (guy on purpose to avoid any unexpected reaction but also for the girl to see), asking his name and where he is from.
      Now you’re showing your lack of options and come sniffing around another beta orbiter. Stop.

      [snip]
      While we were talking somewhere around this point, the guy said something I called the polish girl ‘furniture’, beautiful furniture. The girl said something or other and then said something like ‘and I am furniture’.

      Look.

      Look hard.

      Look at the effect a simple neg has on her. Her hamster is spinning furiously.

      She needs and wants to be treated like a disposable whore, while you and all the other good looking betas are pedestalizing her and showering her with affection.

      About an hour later, she was at the bar with another guy (different but still taller and wider than me) and I jumped into the group briefly (addressing the guy and then the girl) and asked for my 0.50 cent.

      Still chasing her around the place, huh?

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:57 am

      Part II Chicken girl

      Here it has been going on for long enough that I just dont want to interact with her as I can feel that I am being played for cheap entertainment.

      And you still interact with her. The thirst is real, man.

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 3:07 am

      Part III The Bulgarian

      This bulgarian girl liked me from the start and shows that my initial interaction goes well. We were talking a bit and I had in my mind to not fall into the rapport trap but girls just kept asking the same questions:
      – Where you from?
      – What you do here?
      – How long you been here?
      – What do you do for hobbies?
      – etc

      She fancies you. Most girls have no game, so they will maintain contact with interview questions. No need to break rapport with this one. Just spike the conversation (Hmm, nice legs… anyway you were saying?) and then bounce her to a quiet place where you can sit down side by side and kino escalate..

      At one point I asked her to describe me and she said that I was energetic and went out and did stuff (which is true and see talking her cues from my verbals but also the 5 bucks story). She said she liked this. She went to toilet and came back and was standing. I tapped the bar stool next to me and she sat down. Effectively, I had good compliance. Given this point, I said “When are you free? I take you out”.

      Dude, she was free TONIGHT. You could have insta-dated her and maybe even banged her.

      Her english was not 100% so I had to say it again in a round about way. She then literally tried to tell me her scheduled and ask me for something during the day (impossible for me) because she works at night (in a restaurant).
      I said it is impossible during the day for me (I cannot just say whatever else she is going to think it is fine during day). There was also a tussle of location as she lives far away. I was saying to come to a central point whereas she wanted me to travel out. I didnt want to argue on this point and said ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She then again tried the same argument to get me to travel to her and I said the same ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She was then continuing to try to say when something can be done and I told her to work it out and then let me know. I asked again for her number (3rd time and last), she paused which caused me to wait and then she said what about her taking my number. I stopped for a moment and thought this is going to go nowhere but entered my number in her phone. I then said that I was going to go mingle but left shortly afterwards.

      She wanted your dick tonight. Once you failed to see her signals, the walls went up and the tussle started.

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 3:29 am

      Part IV Inner game

      Again there is a general rapport problem in my in person verbals. Given that it is a constant pattern, i need to have a story prepared for each possible question and then a followup topic to take back control of the discussion.

      You’re doubling down on this robotic/autistic bullshit. This is not chess ffs. Girls need to feel things: joy, arousal, dread, outrage. With you, they feel boredom.

      Look at the effect of the furniture neg or at the way the Bulgarian was impressed with your 5 bucks for the kisses prank.

      Being a calibrated asshole works wonders.

      What is strange for me is that the guys who are talking with these girls (polish + troublemaker), they are getting numbers and in the case of the polish, they are continuing the drinks somewhere else (dont know if it is leading to sex or not) but they are moving forward where I am keeping interactions shorter and choosing not to ask for their number.
      Let me tell you, they fuck.
      And yes, they are leading the girls, physically leading them out to all these cool places instead of talking and taking numbers.

      The point of this statement is that it is making me doubt somewhere something about the in person conversations that I need to have. My mind was trying to have verbally the text chats type of discussions which is just not enough on the time scale (ie. text chat can be had with content that only fills 2min of talking whereas in person it feels like 30-45min of talking is required. This gap has me concerned).

      Horribly wrong approach. There is no “gap.”

      Your in-person outer game reflects your terrible inner game.

      Your assumptions about female psychology, about seduction are wrong.

      No amount of verbal tricks can fix that.

      Right now, you are just a nice guy who occasionally has a flash of random inspiration.

      You need to fix your attitude first and become much more of a dismissive asshole.

      As long as you are looking for verbal pointers, you will be going home with blue balls.

      Recommendation
      Get some in-person face to face coaching, because right now you are destroying any chances to score in your expat social circle.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 8:38 am

      Questions that should give you some light here. Respond honestly

      1) Why are you in that place?

      2) Why are these girls in that place?

      3) Is anybody there to have sex?

      4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual

      5) Same rank question but in your day to day life

      6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?

      7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)

      8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?

      9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?

      10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them

      11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:15 am

        My responses (honestly):

        1) Why are you in that place?
        I am going there to meet girls in the sexual context and improve my skills in this area.

        2) Why are these girls in that place?
        From what I observe, some girls are there to meet people (guys / girls) whereas some girls are there to meet guys (eg. polish). Some girls come together with girls. Some girls come together with male friend (as in bulgarian)

        3) Is anybody there to have sex?
        The vibe is not very sexual from the girls (but definitely from the guys). I would think that sex may happen on the night but likely at followup dates

        4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual
        Social = 7
        Power = 7 (I am able to control the groups that I am in but there are rare cases where I am speaking and get cut off)
        Sexual = 5 (I am obviously looking in the sexual context but pushing this too hard has me coming across as ‘thirsty’ as Flat Lander puts it. This has me keeping it lower – maybe this is a mistake, I dont know)

        5) Same rank question but in your day to day life
        Social = 6 (within office)
        Power = 9 (in office)
        Sexual = 3 (due to office)

        6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?
        Too many people around therefore cannot be heart of the party but also dont want to be center of attention for 50+ people. When I am in a particular group, I am directing the group in discussion bring the attention to me and directing it around as I move the conversation for people to respond.

        7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)
        Mention in Flat Lander response – to separate myself from the other guys. This evolved from where I was always just speaking with girls and not guys to speaking with guys first before girls.

        8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?
        I say no as this may come across as ‘too strong’ but if the conversation is going positively, then I am ready to take them somewhere else.

        9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?
        This was related to context and time of night. In past, I have had an interested girl (ones asking rapport), I asked to get a drink at another bar (while it was still early in night around 8:30) and continue there. Response was ‘I dont want to leave so soon’ (Translation: she still wanting to see what is available). With other girls, sometimes it is also quite late and they say they have to travel to get back home. In retrospect, these are all walls likely from a problem on my side.

        10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them
        This is a difficult question for me to answer because I cannot always see who is continuing onwards with girls that night (I am not the doorman). In the case of last night for the polish, the guy was taller, wider and about same looking – was also much older looking. With other girls and guys, a lot of contacts are exchanged but I cannot tell if it is for social politeness or if something else would come of it.

        11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?
        Upper end of middle.
        I can clearly identify the bottom guys as they are scanning the room constantly looking for girls (I use todo this and could feel the negative vibe from my side). Bottom guys are also standing alone or sitting in corner alone. ‘Top guys’ are very few from what I can say and are generally of good looks + height + width. Surprisingly what I thought was a top guy (he could of been a male model without issue) speaking to the polish (from above) that I approached, backed down and went away. I say ‘upper end of middle’ as I have largely removed the above mentioned bottom guy behaviour and am speaking with good looking girls on a continuous basis. My problem is in progressing from there.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 11:45 am

          Thanks man, let’s fix it.

          ==============

          1) Why are you in that place?
          You: I am going there to meet girls in the sexual context and improve my skills in this area.

          Me: Wrong answer. You’re going there to have sex. Embrace it.

          2) Why are these girls in that place?
          You: From what I observe, some girls are there to meet people (guys / girls) whereas some girls are there to meet guys (eg. polish). Some girls come together with girls. Some girls come together with male friend (as in bulgarian)

          Wrong answer, all of them are going there to have sex. All the socialization going on is sexual in nature. The result of all the socialization that happens, is sex. Each participant does it with a variant strategy, but, there’s absolutely, nothing, going, on, but, sex.

          3) Is anybody there to have sex?
          You: The vibe is not very sexual from the girls (but definitely from the guys). I would think that sex may happen on the night but likely at followup dates

          Wrong answer. Everyone is there to have sex.

          So. You see the hot girls surrounded by 5 guys at a time and phones being exchanged and you describe that as non-sexual. Compared to what? night game is the fucking jungle.

          The girls are there with ‘openings and walls’ and intentionally having many, many guys hit on them. It’s game on. So for must guys they have a ‘wall’, and for a selected guys they have ‘openings’, but ‘walls and openings’ are nothing but sex. This is sexual courtship game. The girls are there exclusively for the sex. If guy were not going to hit on them at this event, these girls would go somewhere else.

          All the girls that go to ‘meet with other girls’ are going with the tribe, so they can get the guys who fail at getting the hot girls. It’s distribution of resources. It’s not a girls-night. It’s “let’s gimme me a top guy” night.

          4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual
          You:
          Social = 7
          Power = 7 (I am able to control the groups that I am in but there are rare cases where I am speaking and get cut off)
          Sexual = 5 (I am obviously looking in the sexual context but pushing this too hard has me coming across as ‘thirsty’ as Flat Lander puts it. This has me keeping it lower – maybe this is a mistake, I dont know)

          Thanks. Being sexual is not about ‘pushing it hard’. Pushing is bottom guy. Check my super long comment about Blue’s text. The sexual expression is about flirting, generating arousal, and escalating. It all starts with flirting. When you say 5 do you mean you flirt half of the time? I didn’t see any instance of flirting in your description of the night, so that would be a 0 (you can’t escalate what you don’t initiate)

          5) Same rank question but in your day to day life
          You:
          Social = 6 (within office)
          Power = 9 (in office)
          Sexual = 3 (due to office)

          Alright. Try getting more activities during the week where you can be social and sexual, and in power without the forced hierarchy of the office. It will help a lot. 3 during the week explains how fish out of water you are during weekends.

          6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?
          You: Too many people around therefore cannot be heart of the party but also dont want to be center of attention for 50+ people. When I am in a particular group, I am directing the group in discussion bring the attention to me and directing it around as I move the conversation for people to respond.

          This question didn’t land. Being ‘the heart of the party’ means that the fun is happening around you because of you. That people come to surround you because they want your presence. The hot girls for example are the heart of their party. It’s not about directing the conversation and having people respond, is about people being around because they want to be in your circle. Why would they do that? because you’re cool as fuck, and you’re moving energy around you. So I take that you’re not ‘the heart of the party’ even if there’s a small group of 6 people, or a group of 2 people (you and a girl). How to fix that? go back to what I’ve been saying about how to socialize from top guy frame. It’s the same stuff from the text game though, same principles. Check the Charisma on Command (goggle that) videos too.

          7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)
          You: Mention in Flat Lander response – to separate myself from the other guys. This evolved from where I was always just speaking with girls and not guys to speaking with guys first before girls.

          Wrong answer but this was a trap question. The answer is you should NEVER do things you don’t want to do.

          Zoom out.

          If you are the heart of your own party and you’re having fun and you’re a dominant confident guy you will be making things happen. You find boring people – you ditch them and go somewhere else. You go where you want to go and talk to whom you want to talk and it has nothing to do with ‘optics’. Go out and o EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND NOTHING ELSE.

          My whole diatribe about ‘top guy frame’ is about getting that done in the rest of your life too. Stop doing things you don’t want to do.

          On the other hand doing things you don’t want to do to impress some girls with the optics of it, is as bottom guy as it can get. Look closer:

          You are infringing your own boundary (doing things you don’t want to look) to APPEAR higher value than you are (or you wouldn’t do things you don’t want to do) to entice girls you want to impress into liking you. So you’re already building a relationship with these girls where your boundaries are violated. You violate your own boundaries to attract them. You’re inviting them to violate your boundaries.

          What would top guy frame do instead?

          Enforce his own boundaries, and stomp over the girl’s to see where they really are, arousing them in the meantime, and taking them home and banging them.

          All while you chat with boring guys to appear high value.

          There’s the gap.

          8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?
          You: I say no as this may come across as ‘too strong’ but if the conversation is going positively, then I am ready to take them somewhere else.

          Wrong answer. The answer must be yes. These girls are there sampling cock, and you have to bring your cock to the party, and then it must be of the highest caliber, and you have to be ready to take them home or somewhere and bang them, in the shortest amount of time possible, and as soon as the girls give the opening for it.

          “if the conversation is going positively”

          Gotcha but it’s not about having a conversation. You tease, they give you openings, you escalate. The guys taking the girls home are doing that. The girls are saying YES. Are you giving them something to say YES to? Something to say YES, NOW?

          You have to.

          9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?
          You: […] I asked to get a drink at another bar (while it was still early in night around 8:30) and continue there […] With other girls, sometimes it is also quite late and they say they have to travel to get back home. In retrospect, these are all walls likely from a problem on my side.

          Yes – what you’re missing is that you must flirt, look for arousal / openings / points of interest and escalate. This is not ‘taking them to another bar’. You’re asking a girl who is there, free, available, horny, went out to have sex – you are asking HER when is she free so you can take her out. This is a complete disconnect from reality. Whatever you think should happen on the next date when you take her out, is what should be happening here, right there, right now. Tease, flirt, command, neg, make laugh, roleplay, kino, lead, lead, lead, lead, lead, arouse the shit out of her.

          Then drop her and get a another girl (lol). Joke. Then take her home.

          Has nothing to do with ‘hey this bar is closing let’s continue in another venue’. What is in that for them? what are they get in that other venue, from you, that they are not getting there? in order for them to want to go with you somewhere else, they need to be already ‘wanting more’. What are you giving to them that they can’t get enough of? what part of you are they begging please please please give me more?

          See it?

          10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them
          You: This is a difficult question for me to answer because I cannot always see who is continuing onwards with girls that night (I am not the doorman). In the case of last night for the polish, the guy was taller, wider and about same looking – was also much older looking. With other girls and guys, a lot of contacts are exchanged but I cannot tell if it is for social politeness or if something else would come of it.

          Ok, the question is: describe their attributes and social cues. Girls have a ‘type’, and it’s not just physical. Each one of them tends to go for the same kind of variant of top guy. It may be ‘older rich guy’ or ‘rock drum player’ or ‘celebrity designer’ or ‘bad boy type N4’ it doesn’t matter – pay attention to the kind of guys girls say YES to. They will be all different but all share similar traits, pay attention to both the differences, and what makes them same.

          Part of your search needs to be on which kind of girls you like and what flavor of top guy you’ll have to be to bang these girls. This is about picking your poison.

          11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?/strong>
          You: Upper end of middle. […]

          Wrong answer. Or, unless you say you’re top guy, you’re bottom guy. When a girl comes to screen you, she has this question on her mind. Any response coming from you that is not ‘I am top guy’ means you just made her job much easier and you’re disposable for her now. It’s only after you express ‘Im top guy’ that she’ll shit test and engage in sexual courtship and give you some openings and traps and entertain banging you. This is why bullshitters have better game than honest good guys. You need to be top guy in every instance that the girl is going to measure you on, or otherwise the ‘puzzle’ gets more complicated as her initial arousal goes down.

          ” ‘Top guys’ are very few from what I can say and are generally of good looks + height + width. ”

          Behavior man, behavior.

          But you can take are of your grooming, wardrobe, fashion, and width (gym).

          “My problem is in progressing from there.”

          Need to wake the fuck up and take charge. You’re following the girls and mirroring them and not taking initiative. There are likely hundred of opportunities you’re not capitalizing on.

          So my tip for you would be to engage in twice the socialization and go more places during the week and avoid this particular group for a while, as it seems you’ve already stablished some toxic dynamics.

          The “talking briefly and not asking phone numbers etc”. Waste of time.

          Go to where you find interesting people. Flirt with girls. Escalate. Move on.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 12:32 pm

            Thanks – All valid point. I will need some time to digest.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 5:29 pm

            If I change my mindset based on your feedback for questions 1-3 then it makes sense if I play back all previous interactions.

            For sexual answer on point 4, I am flirting part of the time if the conversation is “going well”. Sometimes it is social chit chat (rapport problem that has been described before already), sometimes there are conversations where the girl is trying firing away yes/no/one word answer questions which I try to work with (turn around) but when I can feel a strong frame clash I just stop these. In others some, it goes well and there is some flirting but I pull it back on instinct (I would understand that I need to keep escalating the flirting higher and higher in the conversation. Will focus on this next time – need to practice flirting skills).

            For question 5, there are time constraints on this during the week but will see what I can do here. On the power aspect, it is not hierarchical but interpersonal at the same level organisational level (No point going into details)

            For question 6, this does occur mostly when I am just ‘having fun’ and I am not focused on the girl (there is likely an answer in here) When I am just focusing on the situation rather than the girl, there is a clear shift in the behaviours of everyone around me as I am interacting with the interaction rather than interacting with the people. As mentioned before, paradoxically, once I am looking to have a girl, my behaviour changes and things go wrong. The problem here is that I am focusing on the girl and talking to her rather than focusing on the situation of which the girl is a part of. The body language is not an issue as I am conscious of how I am oriented / seated and also express myself with body + facial expressions.

            For question 7, I will change this aspect consciously. I will looking for what may appear to be top guy group and focus on discussion with them or just focus on speaking with girls only.

            For question 8, this is a mindset issue for me along from questions 1-3. I will be conscious of this next time.

            For question 9, this is something that has been ‘itching’ me for a while already where from before behaviour (>4 weeks back) I was focusing on getting the number rather than just continuing the interaction there and then. I will not get numbers unless there is no other option to continue there and then.

            For question 10, this is noted.

            For question 11, when I talk about the looks + height + width, it is really on them being physically larger (eg. 1.85m-1.9m tall with associated width). On my side, grooming, wardrobe, fashion and gym as in order (for reference, I am 1.78m). On the behaviour part, I do notice something different from these guys in that they are slow to respond in behaviour to each other (ie. guy speaking with guy). I didnt focus on how things were going on but will pay more attention next time.

            On this point:
            Need to wake the fuck up and take charge. You’re following the girls and mirroring them and not taking initiative. There are likely hundred of opportunities you’re not capitalizing on.

            On waking up and taking charge, this is what is going on over the past 4 weeks where I am changing things in myself over time (you see it being posted on this page).
            On following girls, mirroring them and not taking initiative, I understand that there is a problem with me. My issue in resolving this problem is a difference between intellectually understanding what should be going on (eg. tease, flirt, kino, escalate, lead) versus the practical implementation (eg. In this situation, you should of done this. In that situation, you should of done that).

            While the initial post on this page was just 1-2 questions, it has evolved into what it is as the whole page now. It is also the reason, I am posting the interactions as I saw them to get opinions of what was good vs bad and also suggested actions next time. If someone says “blah blah blah this is gay” and nothing else, all it tells me is that this is a bad action and I should not be doing it but there is no advisable replacement action (should it be applicable).

            If we look at it in the context of text messages, it is improving on my side because I can see what I was typing in years before vs your suggested responses in more recent text exchanges. In this way, I can adjust my responses as it should be (or stop at particular points). This is also why I can identify what is going wrong with text chats (eg. robinhood + bluevalentine) but have difficultly in suggesting alternatives lines or actions.

            The questions you asked (the 11 questions), the first three are mindset question so are easy to adjust because it is just rejecting preconceived notion and then replacing with new notion. Questions 4 to 6 + 10 + 11 are about me and how I see myself. Questions 7 to 9 are about actions I should be taking which is the part that is not right in my head (as of yet).

            So given the above, it would be useful for me (and appreciated by me) if you are willing to take the time to breakdown my interaction from the drinks last night for me to see where I can change direction and also what right / wrong.

            Flat Landers words are harsh but I am trying to get the message out of his responses rather than any emotive connection to the words. If there are confirming views or similar explanations, then it helps me see a common message.

            To be clear, I am not trying to “outsource” my problem but am looking for pointers just like in the texts. End of the day, I have to fix all this stuff that is not right in myself and pointers help me speed up the process so that I dont stay in a constant loop of doing the same thing over and over.

            Reply
44. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 9:49 am

    @Flat Lander

    Thank you for taking the time to put forward your view.

    If I am reading your responses, I get the sense that it is coming across as ‘scripted’ where for EVERY girl you are saying that I have to be the ‘asshole’ at every point saying very harsh comments that would sound like I was raised in the ghetto without any social intelligence. There is coincidently someone who I see from time to time who says the most socially inappropriate things and the girls are very turned off by this guy. This isnt an impression but actual responses when I am talking with the girls and the girls turn closer to me and say ‘i hope [guys name] isnt coming to talk to me again’.

    My point with above paragraph is that while I can understand dismissiveness, the manner and actual responses you are recommending, I cannot in any good conscious believe would be appropriate. My rationale for this is one part social intelligence and one part historical experience where me being an asshole turned a YES girl into a NO girl within 15 min. She was a definite YES girl because she came out for coffee and was fully compliant but after being ‘an asshole’ she disconnected. I could see after a while that things were not right and her remarks were that ‘there is no point as she things I am pretty much an asshole’. Being dismissive is one thing while being an asshole is another.

    On other points:

    When having other guys around me, this is making the situation that I have available to me, work for me.
    While I cannot say that having ‘nerds’ (as you put it) around me will increase social status, it is not lowering it because my body language is different from theirs and others can see it. The girls looking in can also see a difference between me and them.

    On me smiling to the polish on the way to the toilet, it was to acknowledge her ‘hi look’ to me (also why would I not reward her opening me?).
    On the way back, the three kisses was to formally say hi and then I went away through the crowds. Something else is that I just have NOT SEEN ANY OTHER GUY MAKE KINO (social or otherwise) with the polish. Here I have differentiated myself again and contrasted with other guys. This has an effect on the guys more than the polish girl where the guys are asking themselves who I am.

    On the 0.50 cents, yes this was her attempt to snatch the frame and I pushed back by saying she owed me. In thinking about this, I could of said something like ‘no, you owe me. Come find me later to settle your bill’ or something of the sort. Her being surrounded by guys constantly is her ‘being an attention whore’. From my side, I am differentiating by keeping distance but am still ‘forced’ to interact with her as she is unlikely to come to me while being constantly being surrounded by attention as she saw me multiple times with good looking girls and she just sat in her corner and waited for guys to come to her (which they did).

    On this particular point:
    If you had better game, you would work to destroy her sense of entitlement and neg her hard.

    As you pointed out, she has guys floating all around her and by me not doing the same, I am focusing on her sense of entitlement (forcing her to doubt). This is what likely has me at the point where I currently am. The negging her hard (if I was to use your word style as you suggest) would give bad impression on me. As mentioned later, I did ‘neg her’ by calling her furniture, beautiful furniture.

    On the point of me providing girls free validation by sitting next to them while there is a group of guys around us – your view is wrong in my opinion. I am not sitting next to the girl for the girl next to me but for every other girl watching the group. The girl I am sitting next to, I am talking and teasing and doing contrary things to what the other guys are doing but am also being social with the guys (ie. I am positioning myself as ‘top guy’ of the group and the outside sees it). I have enough experience and results on this part that what I am doing is correct.

    On this point:
    She’s playing you and all the guys like a toy.

    She is definitely trying to get me to ‘fall in line’ like every other guy around her. Me speaking to the other guy before calling her furniture was to continue from the previous ‘passing the toilet’ interaction. This is also the first time I am actually looking to say more than a few words to her. Also talking to a guy who was BETTER LOOKING + TALLER + WIDER than me asking me if me and her were dating was something interesting to me and would of only occurred if I was doing something right here. I am sure that it also affected polish girl opinion of this guy.

    Me going to her and asking for my 0.50 cents from her at the bar was a poor move and was chase (looking in retrospect) but this was before I met the Bulgarian girl and got her todo it (which would of work well on its own) – there is likely something I can work with in future getting one good looking girl to ask something of another good looking girl on my behalf. But, the order of events is just how it happened and again I was forced to move forward as a lack of a move would of ended all interaction for likely forever.

    On your point of saying that she needs to be treated like a ‘disposable whore’ is also a bit strong but I do agree that she needs to be treated differently.

    On the troublemaker (aka Flat Lander called chicken girl), this was a brief interaction but yes I wanted to know what the story with her was and likely created my DEAD end here but at the same time, I was really losing interested the more her games went on.

    Moving onto the Bulgarian.

    You raised point:
    She fancies you. Most girls have no game, so they will maintain contact with interview questions. No need to break rapport with this one. Just spike the conversation (Hmm, nice legs… anyway you were saying?) and then bounce her to a quiet place where you can sit down side by side and kino escalate..

    Duh on ‘she fancies you’ – this I already know and also already established that girls do interview question with lack of anything else. We were in a very loud bar and there were no quiet corners. She was fine with social kino but when i poked her side she was not to happy about it and verbalised that she didnt like it as she still didnt know me that well (after 10min talking) so I had to back off. Many things can be read into this. As mentioned, I was trying to move the discussion to a non boring topic but the loudness of the place kept breaking the flow of the conversation because she couldnt always hear what I was saying and kept saying ‘I cant hear’ forcing me to repeat every 3rd sentence.

    On your point of her ‘being free that night’ and ‘me should of insta-dated her’ this is non-sense as I checked her logistics before. Without a flow in the conversation and sub-100% english, i am handicapped in talking and things likely would go nowhere. She did text me a moment ago saying it was her (just a ‘hi [my name], is it [girl name]). I need to think about how to respond to this and move it forward later today.

    On the point of inner game, there are obviously issues there (I do not deny) yet the issues are not one of value (ie.the girl is too hot for me) or of me trying to ‘fit into a group’. I feel I am stuck in a state where I do not know how to move the process forward while also trying consciously to get more experience with girl interaction within sexual context. This can be seen as thirst in what it is but I need more these varied type of girl interaction more than I need the sex. On the verbals, I am not looking for ‘canned material’ or some verbal trick but as a way to talk. There is obviously issues here as all prior posts have been detailing. Saying in general that girls want “joy, arousal, dread, outrage” is a ‘truism’ but doesnt allow me to formulate the words that come out of my mouth to speak with the girl. So when I am talking about ‘preparing answer’ it is about having thought through the likely points a girl may raise and already know how to answer using “joy, arousal, dread, outrage”.

    In general, I am not saying that you are wrong on every point but at the same time I am having difficulty believing that most points you say (and the way you say it) are the correct social responses. You also seem to call practically EVERYTHING someone does as ‘Gay’ which has me wondering about your responses / advice. All your comments on all my posts appear to have a ‘theoretical rulebook context’ to every point and again always saying ‘be the socially unfiltered asshole’ and always looking at the surface context based on what I am describing (maybe that is all there is and I am looking for something that is not there).

    I may not agree with the majority of your points but I still would like to hear your viewpoint for contrast and comparison against mine.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:20 pm

      If I am reading your responses, I get the sense that it is coming across as ‘scripted’ where for EVERY girl you are saying that I have to be the ‘asshole’ at every point saying very harsh comments that would sound like I was raised in the ghetto without any social intelligence.

      You say “scripted”, because you are a nice guy who’s pedestalizing girls.

      Han Solo is not ghetto.
      James Bond is not ghetto.
      But they are massive, entitled assholes.

      Until you figure out that being rude, dismissive, self-centered, self-amused turns girls on, you will not make progress.

      There is coincidently someone who I see from time to time who says the most socially inappropriate things and the girls are very turned off by this guy. This isnt an impression but actual responses when I am talking with the girls and the girls turn closer to me and say ‘i hope [guys name] isnt coming to talk to me again’.

      Bullshit. They are turned on by him and a bit scared. They run to you and play the damsel and want you and him to fight. More tingles!

      My point with above paragraph is that while I can understand dismissiveness, the manner and actual responses you are recommending, I cannot in any good conscious believe would be appropriate. My rationale for this is one part social intelligence and one part historical experience where me being an asshole turned a YES girl into a NO girl within 15 min. She was a definite YES girl because she came out for coffee and was fully compliant but after being ‘an asshole’ she disconnected. I could see after a while that things were not right and her remarks were that ‘there is no point as she things I am pretty much an asshole’. Being dismissive is one thing while being an asshole is another.

      That was a shit test. You failed it.

      When having other guys around me, this is making the situation that I have available to me, work for me.
      While I cannot say that having ‘nerds’ (as you put it) around me will increase social status, it is not lowering it because my body language is different from theirs and others can see it. The girls looking in can also see a difference between me and them.

      You are wrong. Yohami addressed that.

      On me smiling to the polish on the way to the toilet, it was to acknowledge her ‘hi look’ to me (also why would I not reward her opening me?).
      On the way back, the three kisses was to formally say hi and then I went away through the crowds.

      Formality makes pussies dry. Good job.

      Something else is that I just have NOT SEEN ANY OTHER GUY MAKE KINO (social or otherwise) with the polish. Here I have differentiated myself again and contrasted with other guys. This has an effect on the guys more than the polish girl where the guys are asking themselves who I am.

      Kino is sexual. There is no social kino.
      Are you suggesting that you are claiming her in front of other guys because you are her bestest beta girlfriend?
      So gay.

      Her being surrounded by guys constantly is her ‘being an attention whore’. From my side, I am differentiating by keeping distance but am still ‘forced’ to interact with her as she is unlikely to come to me while being constantly being surrounded by attention as she saw me multiple times with good looking girls and she just sat in her corner and waited for guys to come to her (which they did).

      You lose whatever jealousy you manage to generate by chasing her.

      As you pointed out, she has guys floating all around her and by me not doing the same, I am focusing on her sense of entitlement (forcing her to doubt). This is what likely has me at the point where I currently am. The negging her hard (if I was to use your word style as you suggest) would give bad impression on me. As mentioned later, I did ‘neg her’ by calling her furniture, beautiful furniture.

      Bad impression? “Furniture” got her outraged, therefore wet. Doubling down on that. She needs to be objectified. Hard.

      On the point of me providing girls free validation by sitting next to them while there is a group of guys around us – your view is wrong in my opinion. I am not sitting next to the girl for the girl next to me but for every other girl watching the group. The girl I am sitting next to, I am talking and teasing and doing contrary things to what the other guys are doing but am also being social with the guys (ie. I am positioning myself as ‘top guy’ of the group and the outside sees it). I have enough experience and results on this part that what I am doing is correct.

      Results are your penis in some girls pussy.
      Nothing else matters.
      Read Mystery Method on how that shit is supposed to work.

      Moving onto the Bulgarian.

      Duh on ‘she fancies you’ –

      Don’t “Duh” me, dude. Just don’t.

      this I already know and also already established that girls do interview question with lack of anything else. We were in a very loud bar and there were no quiet corners.

      More excuses, please.

      She was fine with social kino but when i poked her side she was not to happy about it and verbalised that she didnt like it as she still didnt know me that well (after 10min talking) so I had to back off.

      There is no social kino.
      This was a shit test.

      Many things can be read into this. As mentioned, I was trying to move the discussion to a non boring topic but the loudness of the place kept breaking the flow of the conversation because she couldnt always hear what I was saying and kept saying ‘I cant hear’ forcing me to repeat every 3rd sentence.

      Top guy doesn’t repeat himself. He doesn’t care.

      Blindingly obvious solution: Grab her by the hand and walk outside and talk there.

      *On your point of her ‘being free that night’ and ‘me should of insta-dated her’ this is non-sense as I checked her logistics before. Without a flow in the conversation and sub-100% english, i am handicapped in talking and things likely would go nowhere. *

      Yohami addressed that. You are 100% wrong and building more walls. You will not seduce her with words. You will seduce her by taking action and leading. Words are incidental.

      She did text me a moment ago saying it was her (just a ‘hi [my name], is it [girl name]). I need to think about how to respond to this and move it forward later today.

      If you think, you lose her. This is not chess.

      You: yeah, what do you want girl

      In general, I am not saying that you are wrong on every point but at the same time I am having difficulty believing that most points you say (and the way you say it) are the correct social responses.

      You’re stuck in a nice guy mentality.

      You also seem to call practically EVERYTHING someone does as ‘Gay’ which has me wondering about your responses / advice.

      When everything someone does is gay, well it’s appropriate to call that gay.

      When you start doing cool shit, I’ll call that cool.

      It’s also how you should start talking to girls when they say gay shit.

      All your comments on all my posts appear to have a ‘theoretical rulebook context’ to every point and again always saying ‘be the socially unfiltered asshole’ and always looking at the surface context based on what I am describing (maybe that is all there is and I am looking for something that is not there).

      Whatever, dude.

      I may not agree with the majority of your points but I still would like to hear your viewpoint for contrast and comparison against mine.

      If you agreed, you wouldn’t be asking for advice here/. You’d be banging these sluts.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 4:15 pm

        You are definitely right on this part:

        Blindingly obvious solution: Grab her by the hand and walk outside and talk there.

        It honestly did not occur for me to go just get my jacket and take her outside. Noted for next time.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 7:02 pm

          Look at the wider picture. If you get minimal compliance and investment, you must get more compliance.

          It’s a ramp or a ladder leading to sex.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 6:32 pm

        The more I think about your comments, the more I am thinking that a large part of my problem may be that I am ‘too nice of a guy’ when speaking with girls and this is likely causing them to treat me ‘in a certain way’. The ‘too nice a guy’ is what is causing me to ‘fit a certain profile’ (in my mind) and restraining the things I can / should be saying. A major “issue” is knowing when female indignation is actually a turn on for her vs it becoming a complete insult that hurts her.

        While I still have difficulty digesting ‘complete asshole’ with specific harsh language, I think you really have a point here on my interactions where my responses need to be “sharper”.

        Calling the polish furniture was the correct move but I could of pushed this much further but as I dont know how far I can really push it, I instinctively pull it back. If I ‘remove nice guy’ for a moment in my mind and replay that time with what I thought was ‘top guy’ that went away, my responses would of been sharper to something like the following (to the guy):

        Me : You know in an office there is a generally a water cooler or coffee machine?
        Guy : yeah

        Me : and everyone, actually only guys, are standing around the water cooler just drinking and talking complete non-sense?
        Guy : yeah

        Me : [point to polish with both hands – like saying tadaaa]. This is that water cooler / coffee machine!!

        The more I replay last night interactions, the more I think things could of gone differently with specific girls not mentioned above. It may really be that your harsh comments are really breaking down my old behaviour / habits.

        So I guess this is a THANK YOU for being a bit harsher in your comments (but giving suggestions also helps me contrast)

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:46 pm

          just continuing my stream of thoughts.

          Me : yes yes, and just like a coffee machine it requires regular monthly maintenance having to flush out the tubes to keep everything in working order.

          Guy: blah blah blah

          Me : and the maintenance can be a messy affair but is required to keep the machine in working order ;-)

          @Flat lander
          Something like the above more appropriate?
          In your terminology, what would you actually call this? is this just a Neg or a blend of something?

          Once I have been able to connect the polish to a water cooler or coffee machine, I can just keep talking about the water cooler / coffee machine while actually talking about her.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:56 pm

          Another level going further harshness …

          Guy : blah blah blah

          Me : Just today, i heard on the world wide interweb (aka internet) that there is this new type of coffee machine – totally innovative. I hear that when i gets fucked up, it produces its own milk. Amazing isnt it?
          Me : So if one wants a cafe latte …. [taadaa hand pointing]

          Me : Its been fun but I think I better just stop at this point. Enjoy the drink [I then leave]

          The above would likely force the guy to contrast with my statement with him going ‘nice guy’ instead of me unless the guy was playing along with my story.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 7:08 pm

            small typo but it changes the meaning of inuendo:
            “I hear that when it gets fucked up, it produces its own milk. Amazing isnt it?”

            Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/20/2018 at 7:21 pm

            The best jokes are short. i wouldn’t go too far in the girl/object analogy as your audience will lose the plot (especially if they are drinking) and may actually hurt the girl’s feelings.

            Also be careful of white knights: they may attack you for attacking her “honour”.

            It’s about letting some air out of her head rather than smashing her to bits.

            In the case of furniture girl, her imagination is your best ally. Don’t spell out the grotty details with the milk and such or you will appear butthurt and nerdy.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 7:25 pm

              Noted.

              This is what I was talking about earlier. I dont have a solid sense of how far I can keep pushing it before it has become too much. Hence it was always playing safer than riskier.

              It looks like I need to stay at ‘Level 1’ and not go to ‘Level 2 or 3’.

              I could adjust ‘Level 1’ to start with “You know what this feels like?” while talking to the guys and then continue with ‘Level 1’ as detailed.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 8:11 pm

                Keep it short and start with the joke, then tag it. And talk to her.

                Me: You know, you’re like a coffee machine
                Her: what?
                Me: (to her and everybody around) you know, the office’s coffee machine? with all the guys waiting in cue to be served
                Her: (and other people) hahaha
                Me: (to her) Give me a cappucchino
                Her: hhahah
                Me: With milk
                Her: hahahah
                Me: (to the room) wait wait I’ve got my own milk

        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 7:14 pm

          The more I think about your comments, the more I am thinking that a large part of my problem may be that I am ‘too nice of a guy’ when speaking with girls and this is likely causing them to treat me ‘in a certain way’. The ‘too nice a guy’ is what is causing me to ‘fit a certain profile’ (in my mind) and restraining the things I can / should be saying. A major “issue” is knowing when female indignation is actually a turn on for her vs it becoming a complete insult that hurts her.

          Bravo. You are starting to catch on.
          All indignation is good.
          Girls need extreme emotions and only top men are strong and brave enough to provide these emotions. Why? Because they don’t care if they insult the girl or not.

          While I still have difficulty digesting ‘complete asshole’ with specific harsh language, I think you really have a point here on my interactions where my responses need to be “sharper”.

          Hallelujah!

          Calling the polish furniture was the correct move but I could of pushed this much further but as I dont know how far I can really push it, I instinctively pull it back.

          You have enough introspection to see that moment. Next time, don’t pull back. Instead double down.

          If I ‘remove nice guy’ for a moment in my mind and replay that time with what I thought was ‘top guy’ that went away, my responses would of been sharper to something like the following (to the guy):

          Me : You know in an office there is a generally a water cooler or coffee machine?
          Guy : yeah
          Me : and everyone, actually only guys, are standing around the water cooler just drinking and talking complete non-sense?
          Guy : yeah
          Me : [point to polish with both hands – like saying tadaaa]. This is that water cooler / coffee machine!!

          Not bad at all. It works well on high self-esteem girls and attention whores.
          You can then mix this up with her. “Today you are a potted plant. Pretty, but you need watering. Be a darling and get us a drink.”

          The more I replay last night interactions, the more I think things could of gone differently with specific girls not mentioned above. It may really be that your harsh comments are really breaking down my old behaviour / habits.

          Shock therapy, mate. It works very well with my clients, as it provides them an actual example of asshole behaviour.

          So I guess this is a THANK YOU for being a bit harsher in your comments (but giving suggestions also helps me contrast)

          You are welcome.

          Reply
45. rivelino says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:24 am

    “Nash shared in this blog that his game is good when a girl likes him, and it is quite bad when the girl doesn’t. Me too, it’s my situation. It’s like a girl who likes me, who I have great chemistry with, inspired great game out of me. My goal is to make it more conscious so I improve with more girls, not just Yes girls.” -Blue Valentine

    i agree with you completely, buddy. i am exactly the same way.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 6:59 pm

      With all due respect, the sequence is

      good initial approach and game OR good looks OR high status.
      the girl is aroused and puts zero or low walls.
      unless you actively screw things up (start chasing her when she’s chasing you like L. in the latest Bulgarian fiasco), whatever you say that is congruent with her initial impression will not sabotage the lay.

      In other words you don’t generate better game because she likes you.

      You get laid because you just don’t sabotage yourself enough to turn her off.

      Reply
46. rivelino says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:25 am

    also, 316 comments! what can we all do to get a FORUM going?? nash, what if we all pitch in 20 bucks, would that help?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 4:47 pm

      Im putting up a blog and forum as we speak

      Reply
47. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 1:12 pm

    Here is the follow on chat with the Bulgarian via text earlier today:

    Total time from line 02 -> line 20 is 7 min.

    [~~~~ Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
    [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

    [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
    [line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

    [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish
    [line 06] Her: Yes

    [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember
    [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

    [line 09] Her: Ha ha
    [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

    [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
    [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later
    [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

    [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
    [line 15] Her: Some day
    [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]
    [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]
    [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be

    [line 19] Me : Ciao ciao
    [line 20] Her: Ok ciao

    [~~~~ Break down ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Line 01 is at 4:40am where I last spoke with her at 1:30am the night before
    Line 02 me responding (I have no nickname to use here therefore none is better)
    Line 03 it is not sure if she referring to me talking to her or the drinks
    Line 04 is because I decided to leave her and mingle after giving her my number
    Line 05 is me doing question + statement. The drinks were ok-ish (too loud)
    Line 06 she confirms the same (or just following my opinion)
    Line 07 she is not sure if I remember. This feels like a trap for the guy to say ‘ofcourse I remember’
    Line 08 I avoid direct response and invert trap + flirt
    Line 09 she receives it well
    Line 10 she corrects me. Is she trying to be certain I remember her or is this something else?. I recall yohmai saying something here when girl correct guy but dont remember and cant find reference
    Line 11 she is telling me what she is doing. Could also be a trap for bottom guy to say ‘I wish I was there too’
    Line 12 she is telling me what todo and telling me we will talk later (was not consciously aware in real-time)
    Line 13 I instinctively respond to not let her have the last word. Tell her that she should be here with me enjoying time (not with friends). This was instinct wording (connecting her back to me)
    Line 14 her video is to support what she is doing? or to try to get me to say it is nice? Her video came in split second after my last message
    Line 15 she just says some day (translation = maybe)
    Line 16 supports her maybe and flirts with me
    Line 17 the emojie fondeling may be for her cocktail
    Line 18 I give a [emojie thumbs up] to her line 15+16 – reward response. Also tell her to text me when that would be (ie. I am not going to propose anything here)
    Line 19 I end text chat
    Line 20 She says ok to line 18 and ends text chat

    [~~~~ General notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    I feel that the above is better in incorporating what I have been learning over the past 4 week in that I am avoiding the walls and taking the opportunities. But even with this, I am sure Yohami will find something to kick my ass with on the above.

    Yohami?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:55 pm

      Here is the follow on chat with the Bulgarian via text earlier today:
      Total time from line 02 -> line 20 is 7 min.

      It should be several hours.
      You are showing thirst by chatting in real time.

      [~~~~ Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
      [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

      Don’t do emojis.

      [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
      [line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

      She wants your cock.

      [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish

      She is chasing and you are punishing her.

      [line 06] Her: Yes
      [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember

      And she loves being punished and pushed away. This is how you will fuck her.

      [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

      Great line, dude. Assuming the sale. Dismissive. I love it.

      [line 09] Her: Ha ha
      [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

      She’s qualifying herself. Good job.
      Perfect illustration of the tingle being born in the defensive posture.

      [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
      [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later

      THIS IS WHERE YOU SHOULD HAVE STOPPED.
      RIGHT THERE.
      STOP CHATTING.
      DON’T REACT.
      DON’T COMMENT.
      DO YOU SEE IT?

      [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

      And you are flipping to chasing her.

      [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
      [line 15] Her: Some day

      And she’s back in the driving seat, because you failed to lead.

      [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]

      You chased her while she was chasing you. Boom, here goes a new wall.

      [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]

      You are her new girlfriend now.

      [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be
      You are confirming that she has the initiative now. You are giving her full control of the frame.

      Advice:
      Forget about her. You are now in her beta orbiter circle. She will marry you when she’s old and used up.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 4:22 pm

        [line 12] is what triggered my followup response to not be ‘taking instructions from her’ (ie. being led by her) but at the same time I can see your alternate perspective in the role of chasing.

        Be interesting to see if Yohami agree or says something else.

        On further action, there is nothing todo from here. She either comes back and starts a discussion again or not.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:49 pm

          [line 12] is what triggered my followup response to not be ‘taking instructions from her’ (ie. being led by her) but at the same time I can see your alternate perspective in the role of chasing.

          What instructions? She said bye-bye and went back to snorting coke off her friend’s ass.

          Nothing she writes should warrant a response.

          Being reactive lowers your status in her eyes unless your reaction is outrageous.

          Optimal responses:
          – silence

          Other possible responses (in line with you being a funny, energetic dude who takes no shit from a silly girl)

          “That will be 2 dollars. You can pay me later.”
          8=====D~~~~~~ ( . Y . )
          birthday cat pic

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 6:59 pm

            The more I think about this over and over, you are likely right on this.
            Noted for future.

            Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 8:44 pm

      My read

      ======================

      [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]

      She opens you, she’s desperately DTF

      [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

      Good, reward her with a nickname. Emoticons are fine for flirting, so dismiss Flatlander on this one.

      Emoticons are death when NOT flirting, don’t use them to be nice. Flirting is fine.

      [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday

      She’s engaging in beta rapport. This is the ‘commenting on the niceties of a ‘third thing’ that it’s death when you do it – but girls do it all the time. Girls are also betas an alphas, she’s beta. Lead her.

      [[line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

      She even stacks. Nice night! I hope you remember me. Desperate as fuck. In her mind you’re already banging another hottie and is scared you’ll slip away.

      [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish

      She’s chasing and you’re punishing her. DON’T.

      Me: Yeah it was fun

      [line 06] Her: Yes

      [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember
      [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

      Best line from you so far.

      [line 09] Her: Ha ha
      [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

      You even got the hair color wrong. This is playing directly into her “do you remember” so now it turned into a game.

      [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
      [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later

      She’s getting fucked by Mario and Pablo. But nice she thought of you during the sex break

      Me: Have fun ;-) (and it’s goodbye for now)

      [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

      This is shit game plus a million, for more reasons that you think.

      First, she just said “bye” so that’s a wall. And you are replying to that wall with ESCALATION. You’re escalating on the wall. This is the same shit that I mentioned on Blue’s text and the MAJOR red flag that exposes bottom guy.

      Bottom frame thinks walls are ladders or something. It would be funny if it wasn’t pathetic. Look at it. Closer.

      She’s been open and down to fuck since the first comment. You didn’t escalate there. You even punished and negged her. Punish / neg is viable if you’re an asshole. Still, when she was open, you said NO.

      Now that she’s breaking rapport and saying bye and giving a little wall, then you say YES to that.

      You ignored / punished the opening, and rewarded the wall.

      This is what fucks up your game.

      But with the specifics it gets even worse! don’t believe me? read the fucking text

      Her: Its a beautiful day
      You : It is a lovely sunny day

      Not only you decided to escalate on the wall – you’re mirroring.

      So you went from ‘casual asshole’ to ‘beta follower who will match her frame and let her dictate the setup and play into her frame because doesn’t know how to lead’

      Your previous arrogance gets reframed with this newer move. “ah, he doesn’t know how to lead” gone.

      Stop mirroring. Re-read everyone of your texts before sending them and make sure you’re not parroting back whatever the girls say at you.

      Same in person. That “50 cent” shit was you parroting her lines back at her. Stop that behavior. It’s beta. You’re letting her lead you.

      You can use the same framing but you need to take it somewhere else.

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: what?
      Her: The bathroom charges 50 cents…
      Me: And how do I owe you that money?
      Me: Did I make you come too hard an you made a mess over there?

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: We didn’t even marry and you’re already searching for my wallet

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: That’s cheap. Do you charge by the hour?
      Me: What can you do for one dollar?

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: What can you do for one dollar?

      In every case Im taking the game she’s giving me and LEADING in a new direction. Not this bullshit

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: No you owe me 50 cents

      [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
      [line 15] Her: Some day
      [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]
      [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]

      Even though you did HORRIBLE game by escalating on her wall, she didn’t notice it was horrible game and got all aroused. Now she’s daydreaming. She’s likely thinking of having kids with you. She’s giving you an opening of the size of a house.

      If you want to fuck her, then go ahead – tell her: call me. Escalate here.

      [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be

      And instead of escalating when she’s open like a chinese contortionist, you decided to break rapport and end it. So you’re again punishing her for being open. It’s very clear the kind of game you’re trying to play. You punish openings and reward walls. You want girls who wont open and will give you shit. Funny.

      On top of that you pass the lead completely. Here’s how you can close the lead without ceding power

      Me: Ping me when you’re back

      That’s a clear cut command / call to action. In comparison:

      “Text me when that would be”

      When WHAT would be? should she text you when ‘everything is possible’ :-D

      Man.

      [line 19] Me : Ciao ciao

      And you set a wall. Haha.

      [line 20] Her: Ok ciao

      She’s a horny and confused girl. Mario, your turn!

      ===========

      Hope that helps.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 9:09 pm

        On the 0.50 cents story

        This line helps me understand a few things in what I should be doing for these kind of situations
        In every case Im taking the game she’s giving me and LEADING in a new direction.

        If I take the above and try to work with it (from instinct), the discussion would of gone something like:

        Her: 0.50 cents please
        Me : what?

        Her: 0.50 cents for the bathroom
        Me : You are the janitor here? Maybe next time I use the bathroom, I leave a tip (then walk off)

        The above would be working against her ‘posh girl’ nickname.

        On the bulgarian text exchange

        On this line:
        [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish
        I was not thinking of punishing her. I thought she was talking about the drinks last night and her message came in when just as I sent mine. So there is an interpretation that I am punishing her.

        Action here is to slow down the speed of message exchange to avoid this type of issue.

        I need a bit more details on this part as it is not clear to me:
        If you want to fuck her, then go ahead – tell her: call me. Escalate here.

        The other parts were my fault and misinterpretation of what I thought I understood from before. While I didnt want her to take the lead (which she wasnt trying to take it), I effectively gave her the lead and then when I thought I took the lead back, I left a wall.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 9:37 pm

          Escalate on openings. Your exact same line about the sunny day and come to my terrace would have worked as escalation if you had led with it, when she gave you an opening

          =================

          Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
          Me : Hey ;-)
          Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
          Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]
          Me: I remember, you’re the sexy brunette
          Her: :D :D
          Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

          Do you see it? that’s taking the opening, rewarding her, and escalating.

          =================

          Now something to REALLY think about here

          Her: 0.50 cents for the bathroom
          Me : You are the janitor here? Maybe next time I use the bathroom, I leave a tip (then walk off)

          I wrote four (4) examples where I took her framing and made it SEXUAL, some more flirty and some more outrageous, all with the clear framing of making her ‘hahaha’ which would be followed by escalation.

          You took the idea, removed all the sexual innuendo, and walk away?

          How are you going to fuck her like that?

          Are you trying to have sex with her?

          Please take a good look and explain what’s the thought process where.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:38 pm

            *Please take a good look and explain what’s the thought process here.

            Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:42 pm

            Specifically

            1) Why did you remove the sexual innuendo?

            2) Why did you decide it’s a good idea to walk away (and create a wall)?

            Do you see how making that joke and making it outrageous will arouse her, which will maker her go in compliance, which is the path to escalation to fuck her?

            Or what do you think it’s happening?

            :-D

            What is the purpose of taking her frame, making it asexual and waking away?

            Will she grow a magic dildo an chase you down a dark alley when you’re not expecting it? what game are you trying to play? how do things are supposed to work in your current roadmap?

            Why turn the exchange into a wall?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:56 pm

              On the questions:

              1) Reading about making her cum hard that there was a mess while her being surrounded by 5 other guys seems odd. Instinctively my mind wanted to keep the interaction ‘clean’ here. Of the options presented, the “what you can get for a dollar” is something I can think have working here

              2) This was the dismissive part of the dismissive asshole

              On the arousal, I was not thinking of arousal at all but to dismiss her statement and move on. In short, not be like the other guys around her.

              [~~~~]

              I can see my playing the theme up (ie. turning it into a joke and teasing her). My mind is not tuned (at this stage) to sexualize everything that is said and done. This would likely be from the questions 1-3 on my view of what is going on.

              On the roadmap, the idea was to differentiate and then speak with her later on from the point of view “I am not doing everything you say”. However considering all the recent posts made, I can see that the perspective (I use this word instead of frame) on what is happening in the social setting is not correct in my mind.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:04 pm

                “1) Reading about making her cum hard that there was a mess while her being surrounded by 5 other guys seems odd. ”

                My lines assume that she told you about the 50 cents in a 1v1 interaction she she was coming from the bathroom and it was you and her and nobody else. All these lines are ‘personal’ and told to her face

                BUT.

                If she gave you the first version of ‘you owe me 50 cents’ in front of 5 guys, that is a MAJOR PUTDOWN

                In that case I’d actually say all the outrageous lines in succession and ROAST THE SHIT OUT OF HER

                Me: what?
                Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
                Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
                Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
                (hahahahahaha)
                Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
                Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
                (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
                Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?

                No-fucking-body messes up with your status and wants to repeat the experience.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:05 pm

                Me: What can you do for a dollar?
                Me: Wait I have half a bitten chocolate somewhere… wait

                She’d be the joke for the rest of the night.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:07 pm

                “On the roadmap, the idea was to differentiate ”

                Differentiate yourself by being a confident self reassured mofo who takes no shit from anyone and gets what he wants.

                If you’re trying to differentiate by trying to not being ‘like the other guys who circle her’ you’re missing the point, because she’s actually fucking some of these guys and not you.

          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:45 pm

            On the text chat, I understand how it should of gone.

            On the 0.50 cents story, the thought process here was ‘dismissive asshole’ but now it seems that doing this is not right.

            If I put aside ‘dismissive asshole’ discussion with flat lander and reread your proposes responses, I should be teasing her while maintaining a sexual angle?

            It may be semantics but the words (dismissive, asshole, teasing) mean specific things to me.

            I am now confused between yourself and flat lander.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:51 pm

              You’re not understading Flatlander’s stuff. You’re thinking of an uncalibrated asshole, while he’s repeating ‘calibrated asshole’. You’re thinking from a nice guy midset where an asshole is unlikable. Flatlander is speaking about a type of asshole who gets all the girls because skips social norms and is unafraid and leads.

              He said Han Solo. Look at Han Solo. Look at my lines. Even the chat with the girl from the bus. Or my own text examples. Am I a gentleman?

              ========

              All my example responses are sexual, from the ‘I made you come’ to the ‘marry me / look for my wallet’ to ‘what can you do for one dollar’. They are all sexual and said in a commanding and challenging relaxed voice with a smirk on my face while looking straight into her eyes while I picture her naked with my dick inside of her and her boobs bouncing in all directions.

              That’s a ‘dismissive asshole’

              What am I dismissing? that she tries to control me and frame me in away way. That she sets any kind of walls for me. That she attempts to one-up me. What she will find every time she tries to do a power play like that, is that I’ll call her a one-dollar-per-hour-whore, but in a way that she still feels enticing and is flirty. Because I don’t give a fuck about her game and we’re playing mine.

              That’s the ‘dismissive asshole’

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:12 pm

                Then the word ‘asshole’ is not applicable here and just ‘dismissive’.

                it may be cultural connotations that is caused me to misunderstand.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:16 pm

                How about ‘jerk’

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:27 pm

                not asshole
                not jerk

                just dismissive in a humours / teasing / sexual way depending on the context from what I am reading.

                The slant of the tease does not matter as I see it all the same.

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:56 pm

              The ‘calibrated asshole’ has less regards about other people’s boundaries so he GOES FOR WHAT HE WANTS.

              When you are doing the ‘janitor’ remark and then walk away, are you going for what you want?

              Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 11:39 pm

          Just occurred to me

          On this line
          [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

          I said this on reflex as I recall reading in one of Nash posts that a girl said in a chat with him that it was such a ‘beautiful day’.

          my brain must of connected this with ‘she wants me to ask her out’ and ‘lead’ and then the above malfunction occurred which tumbled down everything. Obviously the context is different between the two scenarios.

          Reply
48. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:25 pm

    @yohami

    On this:
    “Differentiate yourself by being a confident self reassured mofo who takes no shit from anyone and gets what he wants.

    If you’re trying to differentiate by trying to not being ‘like the other guys who circle her’ you’re missing the point, because she’s actually fucking some of these guys and not you.”

    The more you explain, the more I sense that I know where I should be doing / not doing something at particular but the way (and strength) in which it should be done is the problem (just to repeat it one more time).

    If someone socially is ‘ragging me’ (ie. putting me down), there is an instinctive reaction to say the words ‘just fuck off’. But in thinking about this, saying ‘just fuck off’ is almost like an admission of ‘defeat’ because there is no ‘tact’ and does not show ‘savy’. It feels like I need to quickly evaluate everyones ‘value position’ in the social context and I have to ‘knock’ the person that is putting me down by ‘teasing / making them the object of laugher’. This is where the janitor line came from. After going back again on the teasing aspect, it seems more appropriate to ‘acknowledge and turn into joke’ the situation. By this the lines would be:

    Me : You see that guys? You get close to her and she already asking for money. She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks

    My thought process on the above is to:
    1) acknowledge that she did her ‘trick’ (ie. I am not hiding away from it)
    2) turn her trick around and frame her away from posh girl toward tart / gold digger / prostitute
    3) say that she is cheap by saying 2 bucks instead of 20 bucks

    You asking me ‘thought process’ questions is what is helping me see the root of the problem here.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 10:33 pm

      You can say ‘fuck off’ if that’s the outcome you want. What is the outcome you want? my lines were sexual and on her face so she’d get turned on. What is your desired result? this goes back to being in power, which leads to this:

      ==========

      Me : You see that guys? You get close to her and she already asking for money. She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks

      Again you took my lines and made them softer. Why?

      In my lines Im the judge. I don’t ask for the opinion of the ‘guys’, and Im talking to HER:

      Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
      Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
      Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
      (hahahahahaha)
      Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
      Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
      (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
      Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?

      Compare.

      I am talking down to her. ME. I. I am the judge. The crowd laughs, because Im doing this in public. But it’s ME.

      Compare

      “You see that guys?”

      You diluted your own power, now are like asking for validation from the guys before you even pass down judgement. Weak.

      “You get close to her and she already asking for money. ”

      Magnitudes weaker than implying she’s a cheap whore.

      “She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks”

      You leave it all up for imagination. Aka, you didn’t lead. You didn’t bring it home.

      Why?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:36 pm

        You took the ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ out of my lines, and they are there for a reason.

        Stomping on her boundaries NEEDS to happen. I think you want to be a nice guy at all costs, so try to niceguy your way into the negs.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:43 pm

          This is a view point.

          I am NOT trying to be the nice guy at all costs.

          What I am trying to avoid is being the ‘uncalibrated asshole’ or ‘socially incompetent idiot’. It could be this fear that is wedging me into what you and flat lander are seeing as ‘nice guy’. I see around the ‘socially incompetent’ individuals and they are completely unaware that they are them.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            Be Han Solo.

            Do you have any friend who’s good with women? can you befriend any?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 10:57 pm

              Not good with girls as in player (yohami definiton).
              Friends I know have a girl friend and stay with them.

              I am the one breaking out of having a girlfriend because of red pill but this is a whole line of discussion not relevant here.

              I would have to keep my eye out while at a bar and look for the ‘top guys’ and see if I can befriend them there.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:00 pm

                Yes, see if you can find any real life ref you can presence in real time. If not check this ‘fuckboy’ tim guy, he just released a product. Everything I’ve seen from him is legit and ‘top guy’ oriented.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:08 pm

                I have followed ‘fuckboy’ tim in some of his videos.

                The issue for me is ‘interpretation’ as shown in the bulgarian chat. It is not a case of me not knowing a concept exists (ie. walls + door) but of me being able to identify them properly.

                Tim may explain something and give an example (just like you do) and in that moment, I will think it makes sense based on what I interpret but then when I apply it, I fail at it.

                This is why I am keeping away from any ‘product’ at the moment and looking for feedback on my real world experiences (main reason for why I am posting everything verbatim here to get feedback from people such as yourself).

                Everything looks fine to me until it is shown not to be fine.

                While I am thankful that you are taking the time to analyze and propose alternative suggestions, I also can understand if it can be a bit much due to time constraints. If you offering, i am fine to commit some cash if required to analyze my interactions (ie. move off-blog).

                Alternatively, I am also fine to continue here.

                Going forward, I will need to keep an eye out for top guys and befriend them (ie. actual rapport)

      • YOHAMI says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:39 pm

        “you see that guys? she’s meean!”

        In a way you turned into a damsel in distress there. Why?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:45 pm

          I dont see how it turned into ‘damsel in distress’ as I was directing the comments to the guys.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            Reverse roles – imagine there’s a girl telling the 5 guys that some other guy is a jerk: damsel in distress trope.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 11:01 pm

            I can see if you reverse roles but would have to address it if it is ‘brought to the fore’ by the girl (ie. she responds again on that).

            I dont know what I would respond but would have to see what she says. My guideline for me would be to keep it humours and ‘light hearted’ (ie. avoid feeling hurt or insulted)

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 11:07 pm

              k, lose any fear you have of hurting or insulting other people. That’s where the ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ needs to come from.

              Even if you restrain yourself, it needs to be there. Otherwise you’ll soften your negs the same way you’ve been modifying my lines here, turning them into castrated little puppies instead of letting them be the wild beasts that would have aroused the girl.

              And there’s no win on being ‘nice’ and respectful when a girl is putting you down. Niceties there only mean you don’t fully grasp what’s going on. When a girl puts you down and you let her, she will continue the abuse until you’re out of the tribe and dead. It doesn’t matter if she’s a fine and caring creature otherwise: Girls will destroy you if you let them. They are in charge of purifying the tribe. If they come down on you, you must reassert the upper position on the hierarchy or you’re dead. There’s no win in being a gentleman when she’s being a bitch.

              Don’t be afraid of hurting them, don’t be afraid of being too strong. You’re not even scratching the surface yet.

              And whenever you see a guy being a jerk, girls only see arousal.

              They are fucked up like that.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:19 pm

                This surprisingly does reconcile with a map from previous experiences. In more than three cases where a girl has ‘treaded’ on my boundary by trying to put me down (eg. you just a little blah blah …), I have literally said ‘fuck you’ while smiling / laughing with the words coming across as positive and showing middle finger … and the girls have giggled at it.

                I know there is something there although I have not distilled it into ‘the girl trying to put me down therefore I must push back’.

                The 0.50 cents from polish I took as just a joke and I didnt recognise it as a put down whereas these three other cases, they were clear overt attempts at putting me down.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:26 pm

                On the above comment where I have told the girls ‘fuck you’ and given them the finger and they giggled, I did not consider myself an ‘asshole’ or a ‘jerk’ at any point.

                I just pushed back a bit stronger and overtly while smiling and laughing recognising that they were trying to ‘take the piss’ out of me as the english say.

                For comparison, I recall in my youth where I recall seeing a group of guys walking past a guy that was closing the boot of his car. One of the guys from the group, smacked the guys head onto the boot of the car and laughed as he walked off. Nothing else happened. In that moment, the guy that smacked the other guy was seen as ‘an asshole’ by me. This is the mental image i have for this word.

                For ‘jerk’, I just dont have a mental or sensory image to describe what that is in the same way as I can for ‘asshole’.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 6:35 am

                “In that moment, the guy that smacked the other guy was seen as ‘an asshole’ by me. ”

                That was an unnecessarily abusive asshole bullying a guy who didn’t deserve it. Or id he? is there a backstory?

                Regardless – when a girl sees that ‘asshole’ her vagina tingles an wants him. Why?

                Because the asshole who put another man down and got away with it is obviously above in the pecking order.

                Which is what triggers female desire.

                Wake up.

                And focus on the ‘above in the pecking order’ part of that phrase.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 7:40 am

                There was no backstory – it was just random abusiveness in the moment. I saw it as ‘asshole’ because it was completely unprovoked. If it was provoked then I would not of thought of it.

                On the point of ‘pecking order’, this is well understood and there no issue on my side. At NO point, am I deferring to another guy or talking him up in front of girls or seeking validation from him or moving aside for someone. Perhaps in the first polish interaction from weeks ago, I was ‘waiting for my turn to talk’ but in last time with polish I was not and also went to speak with what I thought was ‘top guy’ and he went away. If I was thinking that he was higher in pecking order and ‘scared of it’, then I would of not gone up and talked to him in front of her.

                In myself, I am independent of other male opinion and can actively joke (without self deprecate) on what they are saying about me and ‘take it somewhere’ (ie. guy talk). The malfunction part is always when it is about the girl or from the girl.

                What I am understanding from the recent exchanges is that when it is ‘battle of guy vs guy’ in hierarchy, I know I am on top (in multiple ways) but when the girl is attempting to ‘poke my position’ on the hierarchy, I sometimes fail because I do not always see what she is doing (ie. the put own from the 0.50 cents story) or I do sense something but dont know how to handle it (ie. the 0.50 cents story where I mirrored instead of took it somewhere).

                For my case personally, the words of ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ I need to discount because of my understanding of these words but given the exchange I have a closer sense of what it should be (ie. ‘asshole / jerk’ be willing to tread on girl boundaries of feelings whereas ‘nice guy’ want to always be ‘proper’ and avoid girl feeling pushes).

      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:40 pm

        In my context, I am talking to the guys and putting the girl down in the eyes of the guys.
        The leaving it up to their imagination is really to have them imagining which will cause the girl to also imagine what they must be imagining. The end objective here is not to turn on the girl but to knock the girl for trying to put me down. The situation came about as I went past her to get to the toilet.

        In your context, you are talking to the girl while amusing the crowd. This I can see if I was initially in the group of 5 + girl and then went to the bathroom and then came back up to rejoin the group. Here the situation is different where I am still interacting in the group itself and then again it is a ‘mini-game’ of raising / lowering social value within the group.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:49 pm

          Focus.

          “In my context, I am talking to the guys”

          YES. Why are you talking to the guys? Talk to HER. The vagina is in HER. Are you going to bang the guys?

          If you and me are in that same group, and you talk to the guys, and I talk to her, who is going to fuck HER?

          “The leaving it up to their imagination is really to have them imagining which will cause the girl to also imagine what they must be imagining. ”

          Which is convoluted and magnitudes weaker than just telling her “you’re so cheap, I’ll give you a 10 cent bonus if you go the extra mile”

          “The end objective here is not to turn on the girl”

          WHY would that be your objective?

          ========

          My lines work in 2 context.

          Original context she’s coming back from the bathroom and we’re alone. There I tease her to make her go hahaha, arouse her, escalate, get closer, make out, taxi, bang.

          Modified context she says the 50 cents explicitly to bring me down in front of 5 dudes, and as a result she gets completely humiliated but also turned on.

          Win win.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            How about:

            Me : 0.50 cents? you mean to get condoms for later on between you and me. Dont worry, I have them already.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 10:55 pm

              Depends, which context would this be?

              1v1 could work, though it’s convoluted. Better line:

              Me: for condoms? don’t worry I’ve got them

              For the 5 guys context where she’s putting you down, she needs a put down herself and flirting means ‘flirting with a wall’, so flirting there backfires.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 7:49 am

                I keep trying to add “between you and me” to connect her and me in the interaction but now I think that this connection has to be “implicit in the wording”.

                The context was 5 guys. The reasons there was a sexual component there was to see how I could still speak with the ‘vagina’ but something still missing in my understanding.

                If I try again, my line would be flirting because I am connecting sex between her and me whereas I need to put her down in the context of sex. Is this right?

                On your set of lines together:
                
                Me: what?
                Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
                Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
                Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
                (hahahahahaha)
                Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
                
                Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
                (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
                
                Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?
                

                All the lines in italics I can understand (ie. I am making fun on her in front of the guys as her being cheap with slant of hooker but then switching to for her to clean the bathroom). The part I dont get is the ‘come too hard and made a mess’ because here it feels like I am ‘attacking her honour’ but the other lines dont feel like that.

                Why is the ‘come too hard’ line included?
                Would it work without this line?

49. YOHAMI says:

    05/21/2018 at 8:40 am

    Lucretius,

    The part I dont get is the ‘come too hard and made a mess’ because here it feels like I am ‘attacking her honour’

    What honor? aren’t you trying to put your dick inside of her?

    What is she doing with the 5 guys around her? isn’t every guy there trying to put their dicks on her?

    What is she doing specifically: is there for any other reason than sampling many cocks, up to 5 at a time, then to pick 1-3 winners and fuck them as soon as possible?

    What is she doing specifically with you? isn’t it to put you down, in front of the other guys, giving the other guys the explicit cue that it’s ok that they also bully you?

    HONOR?

    WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MAN

    =========

    Now look at the calibration of being an asshole. Pokes, pings, tease, escalation, boundary pushing

    The reason why I say “put the joke first, then tag it”. as opposed to your approach which was “build the joke”

    When you’re building the joke, as in “listen guys blah blah” you’re asking for permission to say the outrageous thing. At the end the outrageous thing is to call her a ‘water cooler’ or coffee machine. So you ‘ramped’ into the outrageous thing. You got compliance from the tribe, then escalated.

    Do you see it? that’s your ramp.

    But it’s weak.

    Why is it weak? because you’re asking for permission before escalating. You got all the permission in the world before saying the outrageous thing. You’re a little boy asking before making a move. This is also why you switch to mirroring and end up following the girls and not leading.

    Now look and how Im doing it.

    FIRST CROSS THE BOUNDARY, then tag.

    FIRST ACT WITHOUT ASKING FOR PERMISSION.

    SAY THE OUTRAGEOUS THING FIRST.

    But you still need to ramp.

    So

    Her: 50 cents
    Me: what?

    That’s a pause and it breaks her narrative already. That’s a wall. The ‘what’ already breaks and puts a stop to her nonsense

    Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)

    THIS is already outrageous, but it’s small. It it still the beginning of a joke, it’s still a ramp. The result of this is she gets irritated but horny, and the guys will laugh. She irritated and horny and people laughing though, it’s COMPLIANCE, and I will milk this compliance and get a big payoff

    Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)

    Tagging the joke, more laughs

    Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40? (hahahahahaha)

    Tagging the joke, her face is red, Im obviously over the line, I retreat and give space

    Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathroom? jeez

    Oh look at that, I behave, I show restraint, looks like Im a reasonable human being! not going to keep making that whore analogy any more…

    Actually…

    Me: Did you come too hard and made a mess over there? (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)

    Fuck your boundaries.

    That’s the ‘sick burn’ and will make everyone pee on their pants with laughter. This is the actual outrageous thing that I prepared with the ramp. This is the memorable experience for her. And I can get away with it because I did three calibrated incremental jokes with “hahaha’s” from the crowd, then showed restraint by taking it away, then pushed it plus a million showed that I don’t care and I do as I please.

    And all this because she made a slight attempt at putting me down, which is something she’s doing to every fucking guy. Guess who will fuck her

    Answer: not the guy trying to protect her honor.

    She doesn’t have that.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/21/2018 at 9:18 am

      There is misunderstanding here on the words.

      The part I am not understanding from your lines is why do I refer to her ‘come too hard’ (as in she touched herself in the bathroom) when i am walking back from the bathroom. Why is there an explicit sexual part here at this detail?

      If I think back to how the guys were behaving, I dont think they will laugh (my impression) but I do see the approach you took:

      1) twist the words and turn into a joke (she charging for her ‘sexual time’)
      2) increase the level of the joke (now saying she is cheap)
      3) increase the level of the joke further (now saying maybe she should actually be cheaper)
      4) pretend to pull back (say that I ‘understand’ why she charging – for the bathroom)
      5) push the level of the joke even further (saying she made a mess by coming [orgasm] too hard in bathroom)

      From points 1-4, I can understand and I can easily see this working with the crowd considering her looks and guys being glued to her. The point 5 (cum too hard), appears like I am crossing a line and becoming ‘grotty’ (from Flat Lander mention earlier). At point 5, instead of saying she come too hard, I would say ‘Amazing what you can get for a few bucks’. Here I am still within the theme of her charging for her sexual time.

      On the general point, I understand the pushing of boundaries and who she is ultimately likely to fuck. It is the retort that you are using that is not clear.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/21/2018 at 9:29 am

        “I dont think they will laugh”

        Why not? men down in the hierarchy laugh at the jokes of the guy up in the hierarchy. Where are you positioning yourself? do you expect that people just laugh when you even start making a joke? why not?

        Look above. “I don’t think they will laugh”

        Do you think girls will just open their legs from you?

        Why not?

        You’re disqualifying yourself before you even start. See?

        ================

        “grotty”

        That’s why it had a ramp and I didn’t start with the ‘cum too hard’ line. People are already laughing – you can escalate.

        Enroll in an improvisation theatre course if you can. Im realizing more and more this is something that really made me good at Game. Social boundaries are fucking you over because you’re low on the ladder of men, so the respect for boundaries means you’re keeping yourself down.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/21/2018 at 9:59 am

          Why not? men down in the hierarchy laugh at the jokes of the guy up in the hierarchy. Where are you positioning yourself? do you expect that people just laugh when you even start making a joke? why not?

          On the above, the context is that I have no interaction with the guys therefore dont have a sense of what the hierarchy is. This could be me creating a paradigm where things need to be evaluated with some words first. All I know is that I am passing a group. I can make a snap judgement and say that because all the guys are around her, they are all lower guys.

          On the improv, I can sign up to something locally.

          The social boundaries problem is here again. I dont have a fear on stepping on boundaries (I can push it more and more). The fear is going too far and this is what I am trying to understand where talking about the ‘girl cumming in the bathroom’ makes sense. Just ‘ragging her’ (making fun on her) I can do without a problem (eg. furniture comment). Escalating the joke (ie. pushing it further) can also be done. Pushing it more sexual without understanding how far I can do this, is the problem.

          To try to explain with different examples:

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : your nails look terrible and you got some dirt on your dress
          

          The above is obviously complete non-sense because it doesnt do anything with her 0.50 and the neg is just completely out of context. It would also give the indication that I am ‘hurt’ by her comment and just lashing back.

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : no, you owe me 50 cents
          

          This is what actually happened and here I can see that I am mirroring which is wrong (ie. not leading her gambit anywhere). In the moment, I understood that I was being ‘ragged’ (ie. being made fun of or as you say it – ‘being put down’) therefore my instinctive reaction was to (try) reverse it. In the above there is no ‘humour’ aspect to it.

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : you charging 50 cents by the hour? thats cheap looking her up and down
          Me : I thought you would charge more, like 75 cents
          Me : or perhaps it should be lower towards 25 cents pause until her face react
          Me : oh, you mean 50 cents for the bathroom? Silly me, I didnt know you were the bathroom attendant dressed in high heels
          

          The above is the put down on her that would make sense to me as I am crossing her boundaries because I am twisting the way she dresses (upscale) and presents herself (the prize). it is also a clear put down on her while using the 50 cents gambit her set out.

          In rereading your lines in 1v1 context, they all make perfect sense but in the put down context, it doesnt click in my head to invoke overt sexual things.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/21/2018 at 10:06 am

            “doesnt click in my head”

            Get out of your head and try things in the out world

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 10:17 am

              knowing myself here, I am going to have to ‘pace myself’ in moving to explicit overt sexual put down.

              If I jump into it right now as is (as I am), I will come across as very incongruent which could result in a negative outcome (uncalibrated asshole).

              I mean thus far, more than 85% of the things you have mentioned on the posts on game / top guy (this page and others) have come to pass and I can reconcile with my experiences. So it may be that I just really need to say ‘fuck it’ and push perhaps too far rather than not far enough and then go from there.

              Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/21/2018 at 10:11 am

            “I have no interaction with the guys therefore dont have a sense of what the hierarchy is.”

            Pause and reflect, I keep pointing at it.

            This is you again asking for permission. So you’re going to interact with the guys, first, to then get a sense of what the hierarchy is, to then position yourself in it? you’re at the bottom, plain and simple.

            The proper answer is that you’re at the top and you come at the top. So, if there are super cool guys in that group, they can join you at the top. And that other guy at the bottom, you can feel for him and wish that he’d put the work and join you at the top, too.

            But you don’t ‘get a sense of what the hierarchy is’ before you start positioning yourself. That thing of “let me first get a sense” is the same thing of you not leading, not taking the games elsewhere, etc. Look, read it slowly:

            You’re scanning for walls.

            You’re scanning for walls to not trespass.

            So when a girl gives you an opening you mirror her because that’s safe so you ask for more walls.

            Ditch this completely.

            LEAD.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 10:26 am

              I think what you are describing here is my behaviour which is being passed over from the office into night game. Given my work, the hierarchy (and power structures) is always changing and a misstep can cost me a hell of a lot. The mechanics of my professional life are in order for my professional situation.

              But these mechanics are likely causing me to be more ‘defensive’ / cautious around other guys where this should be completely discarded because it is outside the office.

              Noted for future.

              On mirroring the girls, this is still (negative) habit because of social conditioning. The only way for me to move around this is to keep having more interactions and keep the ‘no mirroring’ aspect in the back of my mind.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 10:31 am

                Yes the office hierarchy is different. And you can’t just ‘be the boss’.

                In the courtship dance you can’t be anything but the boss.

      • YOHAMI says:

        05/21/2018 at 9:37 am

        *Do you think girls will just open their legs [FOR] you?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/21/2018 at 11:07 am

          For top guy = it is expected (yes)
          For bottom guy = work required (no)

          Reply
50. Lucretius says:

    05/21/2018 at 10:48 am

    In an effort to resolve this issue of ‘office behaviour’ traversing into ‘night game’, I need to completely re-evaluate everything that I have done. Rather than me try to ‘fix’ how I enter into a group, can you suggest 2-3 possible openers for the following situations (I can provide more details for the situation if necessary):

    All take place at a bar or bar like atmosphere where there is either a bar + dance floor or just a bar.

    Situation 1
    Girl is sitting at the bar alone having her drink
    or
    Girl is sitting in the corner looking at the crowd

    In both of the above alternatives, the girl is waiting for guys to come to her.

    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to the girl to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Situation 2
    Girl is together with another girl in group talking with each other.
    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to one of the girls (or both) to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Situation 3
    Group of people where there is 1 or 2 girls surrounded by multiple guys all talking.
    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to one of the girls (or both) to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Would there be a remark on how the situation looks (ie. gathering around water cooler / coffee machine)?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    The above would help give more of a sense of the different approach dynamics for different situations and to try to question (and replace) what I have been doing before (which is getting girls interested in me but as mentioned may not be a “correct way”). I am also conscious that as I write the above, I could be setting myself up for rapport but this is not the aim and if girl is moving towards rapport, I can move out of it as already shown before. MY AIM IS TO BREAK OUT OF CURRENT HABITS

    In all of the above, one can start with ‘Hey’ or ‘Hi’ and if the girl says something a bit more than ‘hey’ or ‘hi’ then there is something to work with. At some point there needs to be something to discuss even if the underlying current is already being established as top guy.

    In text messages, the opening line from guy would be ‘hey ;-)’ with or without nickname and then callback to meeting situation + flirt (if things could not go further there and then for whatever reason). If girl is opening, she likely give something to work with. From there it is moving around the conversation on what is said towards flirting, escalation and towards sex.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/21/2018 at 11:40 am

      The answer for al these:

      1) Flirt
      2) Tease
      3) Pass judgement

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/21/2018 at 11:43 am

        can you give examples of flirt in the above situations?

        I can work out the tease (playfully twisting the words) and pass judgement (saying what I think in statements on various points)

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/21/2018 at 12:18 pm

          FLIRT

          Display of nuanced sexual interest

          Eye contact
          Body posture
          Saying hi / hey / sup ;-)

          ============

          TEASE

          Give her / them something to prove, give her a role to play, or get herself out of. Cold reading falls into this, the difference is that the tease is an invitation to play, so when they play, you reward them

          You look like a [category]
          Do you [come here often]
          Are you [doing this or that]
          Are you [stuff, attribute, etc]
          Where are you from, or are you from [xxx]

          Check the classic pickup stuff

          Me: Yo
          GIrls: Hi
          Me: We’re are you guys from
          Girls: Miami
          Me: Wow! miami that’s awesome (reward)

          Or

          Me: oh no miami girls are trouble (more tease)

          ============

          PASS JUDGEMENT

          State that stuff is good or bad. It has to come from you, as you being the authority. Passing judgement is what you do after the tease so you evaluate the situation and her performance. You also pass judgement on other things – the venue, whatever. The more clear and cut and black and white your judgement, the better.

          And then of course

          ============

          ROLEPLAYING / RAPPORT + BREAK RAPPORT / CALLS TO ACTION etc

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/21/2018 at 12:53 pm

            Thanks.

            This helps clarify a few things.

            Flirting
            The eye contact and body language was always in my mind but for some reason I always thought that there would be something else I have to be doing (an UNKNOWN) for it to qualify for it to be considered flirting.

            If I ignore the word ‘flirting’ and just think about what it is that I am doing when I like a girl, it is practically this:
            – giving the girl a ‘cheeky’ look (something with a smirk and eyes)
            – prolonged eye contact (until she breaks it off)
            – body posture would change (more open towards her)
            – talking to the girl in inuendo (where it can be done if she makes a statement that can have multiple meanings)
            – specific kino where appropriate

            The above to me is just guy to girl behaviour but is actually flirting if I give it a label. Are there any other points outside the above that I am doing that could also be considered Flirting? Not looking for exhaustive list but a major point if I am missing it.

            Teasing
            The way you describe it is not as I would understand teasing. In my vocabulary, teasing would be taking a particular thing that is on her (accessory) or about her or something she said or something she thinks and teasing her with it by continuing a playful discussion on it. This would be happening during the interaction.

            Looking at this part of the teasing as you describe it:
            Give her / them something to prove, give her a role to play, or get herself out of.

            The above is to me the roleplay and depending on her responses, I can tease (my definition) one way or another and lead it into another conversation thread where I could again tease her. This can keep looping with the teases spaced apart depending on what she is saying.

            On this part:
            Cold reading falls into this, the difference is that the tease is an invitation to play, so when they play, you reward them

            The cold reads is what I would see as “the starter” for the interaction and this is what I was typing in the various situations. If I can cold read and land it, then it could be material for teasing and then push forward onto roleplay. The interaction would then keep moving around this where she may start volunteering information (ie. qualify herself) and this allows things to move forward again. Like you mentioned in the “dance” at the top of this page.

            The reward here would be to continue the thread or give a smile that she played along. If she does something that is like a performance (eg. doing something for me – like going to the polish – i can say “very good”)

            Pass judgement
            On this aspect, this is clear and follows the same definition I have.
            I have always spoken as I thought and not “calibrated” my opinion because of someone (guy or girl) in the group.

            Role play / rapport + break rapport / call to action, etc
            These I would see as sprinkled throughout the interaction and would be fluid depending how the interaction goes.

            Getting examples on certain terms used helps me reconcile what the meaning of it is. Overall, I am seeing that my natural interactions in person with guys / girls is what I should be doing but the frame that I have (at this time) is causing me to think I need to act differently than what I would normally do. Lets call it “game frame” where all new terms and concepts are coming in and I am thinking it means ‘X’ but actually means ‘Y’.

            In effect, I need to just drop this “game frame” and interact from the mindset that every MALE -> FEMALE interaction in social setting is about sex and only sex.

            I still got problems with doors and walls but I am believing that if I think from the above and do not read too much into what a girl is saying, I will avoid doing something to address a problem that is not there (eg. with the bulgarian where I thought she was taking the lead).

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 12:56 pm

              To further clarify teasing, it is always fun and light hearted.
              If it is missing this component, then anything I would be saying would be an off hand insult or put down.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:04 pm

                Why should it be always fun and light hearted? nope

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/21/2018 at 1:12 pm

              Man this cracks me up. I have a hard time even understanding what you’re doing. Once and again your frame things to belong to nice guy / bottom frame. Look:

              Look for real.

              You are a TOP GUY talking to a girl that you MAY want to fuck.

              You can’t remove these elements from the stuff. These elements are integral to everything. Don’t remove them. Check my line here:

              “Display of nuanced sexual interest”

              This is a FULL display of NUANCE sexual interest. Or, you are FULLY communicating a MAYBE.

              Let it rest.

              What is the body language of a top guy who’s just having a chill time, and sees one of many, many beautiful girls he could bang and maybe will bang?

              If that’s not your starting point, then you’ll communicate something else other than ‘top guy’ so you’re on the losing end of the stick.

              Check your assumptions:

              “– giving the girl a ‘cheeky’ look (something with a smirk and eyes)”

              Is a cheeky look sexual? are you communicating “how good of a fuck are you?” with it?

              “– prolonged eye contact (until she breaks it off)”

              No. If the girl gives you ‘the eyes’ you go and talk to her. What is communicated with the eye contact is “I like you, you like me”. When that happens, open your mouth and say hi, this is time to escalate. Not time to wait until it breaks off and now the window is gone.

              “– body posture would change (more open towards her)”

              No, you’re not a soldier and she’s not that important. You can talk over your shoulder. If you’re leaning on a wall or something, barely move. You adjusting your body to look in her direction is you reacting to her, she’s the one who will react to you.

              “– talking to the girl in inuendo (where it can be done if she makes a statement that can have multiple meanings)”

              That would be a tease. You can open with a tease but that’s not flirting.

              “– specific kino where appropriate”

              Kino is not flirting

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:34 pm

                I throw away my definitions and assumptions.

                If I am understanding this right, I need to be talking to the girl while in my mind I am already fucking her and this will be sub-communicated in the flirting / teasing?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:44 pm

                In your mind you’re MAYBE fucking her. You’re doing a screening process.

                Is she fun enough?
                Adventurous enough?
                Spicy enough?
                What do you personally like?
                Is she worth YOUR TIME?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:00 pm

                And to answer these questions, I need to:
                1) Flirt (to communicate sexual interest)
                2) Tease (to see how she reacts – boring / fun / interesting)
                3) Judgement (to see if she reacts on what I say)
                4) Role play (to generate feelings in her and see how she reacts)
                5) rapport + break rapport (to generate feelings + judgment)
                6) call to action (moving onwards)

                is the above more inline or am I way off again?

                I would imagine that if the girl is not reacting the way I would like (ie. i dont like the girl personality), I just end the interaction and go somewhere else.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:07 pm

                Put differently:

                Top Guy – maybe I will fuck you girl (depends more than looks…)
                Bottom Guy – please fuck me girl (I will take anything, just let me)

                If I am to become Top Guy frame, I should be mentally wondering (picturing) how fucking her would feel to me and if it is something I want to make happen or not

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:11 pm

                continued …

                I have to be doing things where I am judging her and not her judging me.

                The flirt is the overt indication of sex.
                Everything else is really for me to see if she is worth of me hence I ‘poke and prod’ her to see what she does it to my liking. Everything I do must be from this perspective.

                Is more right?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:19 pm

                Yes. All good but this:

                “The flirt is the overt indication of sex.”

                Flirt is a MAYBE, but it’s how you set the frame, and the frame is unequivocal. If you don’t flirt then it’s not man to woman.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:29 pm

                Anything else to consider (for the moment)?
                Will see by end of week if my interactions are different.

                I can understand that if I have ‘decided’ up front I want a girl and then am ‘doing stuff’ to get the girl, everything comes from bottom guy because it feels like I am committed to a course of action and must continue.

                If I am uncertain (AND HAVE THE OPTION TO JUST DROP IT), i can see things working a bit differently because if she is starting to look like too much trouble for me (eg. crazy / ball busting / etc), then it is better to just stop there and find someone else.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:34 pm

                That should give you plenty. Let me know how it goes.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 8:19 pm

                A general question on the initial interaction.

                When seeing a girl that I like and starting an interaction with her, should I put out my hand to say ‘Hi, I am [name]’ or just to say ‘Hi (then “up nod”), I’m [name]’

                The contrary also happens if there are multiple people in the group (say 4 in total). If a girl puts out her hand and gives her name, should I shake her hand or just do ‘up nod’?

                The question comes from a perspective of falling into new person frame or mirroring her (if she got her hand out)

              • imaflirt says:

                05/24/2018 at 6:51 am

                “Kino is not flirting”

                Could you elaborate as to why you don’t see kino as a style of flirting? I’ve googled “flirting touch” and there are plenty of counter-opinions.

                ?

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/21/2018 at 1:18 pm

              On Teasing: the dictionary definition is

              “make fun of or attempt to provoke (a person or animal) in a playful way.”

              Which fits. You’re attempting to provoke a person in a playful way. My line to the bus girl “what kind, cheap or posh” is a tease. So is “so you’re a traveler uh”

              You provoking them is tease. Tease is just to spark things up.

              ” teasing would be taking a particular thing that is on her (accessory) or about her or something she said or something she thinks and teasing her with it by continuing a playful discussion on it. ”

              That sounds like asexual rapport. How interested are you in her accessories?

              Roleplay is a much more complex form where you’re doing a parallel universe / future.

              Reply
51. YOHAMI says:

    05/21/2018 at 9:02 pm

    Luc, replying here

    “When seeing a girl that I like and starting an interaction with her, should I put out my hand to say ‘Hi, I am [name]’ or just to say ‘Hi (then “up nod”), I’m [name]’”

    Both are fine so it depends on the context. If you’re stopping her on the street you don’t even need to say your name, just flirt and tease. If you’re in a more formal setup where people are introducing you, just do what the situation merits.

    “If a girl puts out her hand and gives her name, should I shake her hand or just do ‘up nod’?”

    If a girl puts our her hand that’s an opening, and it’s kino. Shake her hand and make sure it’s a feel-good shake.

    Doing a ‘nod’ and rejecting her hand is punishing her for giving you an opening. Which is iwhat you have to avoid doing always.

    “The question comes from a perspective of falling into new person frame or mirroring her (if she got her hand out)””

    Shaking her hand is not mirroring. But yes it’s better when you’re the one extending the hand first (when a handshake is the socially normal scenario)

    If you’re picking her up the handshake comes somewhere in the middle of the interaction, after a few hahahas etc when you’re coming down back to earth. “Hey Im [Name] by the way”

    Reply
52. Lucretius says:

    05/21/2018 at 9:38 pm

    In re-reading the text section from robinhood:

    Me: nice pic
    Me: you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you

    Her: Hahahha everyone can afford vacations! You are from [Sunny Country], why you are complaining?! :)

    What is the direction that it should go?
    What I do know is that I have to reward her for playing along on the vacation theme

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/21/2018 at 9:43 pm

      Possible answers that come to mind are:

      Me : Everyone needs a bit of fun outside their home country ;-)

      or

      Me : The sun is too much. I want snow ;-)

      The second one feels better because it has judgement + flirt whereas first one is largely flirt.
      The ;-) is the reward for playing along

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/22/2018 at 12:17 am

        *why you are complaining?! *
        This is a put down. Responding to this rewards her for putting you down.

        Me : Everyone needs a bit of fun outside their home country ;-)

        Asexual therefore gay.
        Also inconsistent with “you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations”

        Me : The sun is too much. I want snow ;-)

        Asexual. Poor little who likes snow, ice cream, parks….

        Better:

        Ignore, redirect the convo.
        THERE IS NO NEED TO RESPOND/RESPOND LOGICALLY TO ANYTHING SHE SAYS.
        “I figured you’d say that”, “I don’t want to get you pregnant” (cryptic bullshit works wonders, h/t Heartiste)
        8======D~~~~~ ( * Y * ) (rude ascii drawings work very well as a reaction to BS)

        Of course, commenting positively on her photos is beta af. Most flirting should be about her, not the places she visited (to get fucked by Mario and Pablo)

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/22/2018 at 6:17 am

          I figured you’d say that

          Sounds the best.

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/22/2018 at 6:20 am

          In context:

          “I don’t want to get you pregnant”

          Works. Travel means sex, you’re talking about travel, there’s a little jump here but it would make her hahaha again

          “8======D~~~~~ ( * Y * )”

          That’s like calling her asshole, more cryptic but works as well

          So these two are not well calibrated, but both are sexual and are LEADING. Whatever lead she had with that put down is gone

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/22/2018 at 6:46 am

            I will go with the “I figured you’d say that” to get back the lead and see where that goes.

            Surprisingly, I didnt see the put down from her – I just saw it as a funny conversation comment. Dang on my part.

            Noted for future.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/22/2018 at 7:00 am

              Don’t do that. Is this a real convo?

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/22/2018 at 7:11 am

                It is a real convo – I am looking at more practice.
                Nothing sent yet. Will have to read your reply and bit later on and reply to her afterwards.

                I dont mind taking a bit of ‘risk’ on this one just to see where it lands up.

    • YOHAMI says:

      05/22/2018 at 7:01 am

      Me: nice pic
      Me: you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you

      Flirts are about HER. The mention to the pic is only used here to point at her compassion or lack of. To use this line she has to be FLAUTING the amazing time she’s having on a vacation, she needs to be engaging in instagram fame whoring, she needs to be a flaunter, so this flirt is a neg, right there her pride is. The reason this neg is a flirt is that it’s a negative for that also validates her, beacuse yes, she has no compassion and what she’s trying to produce is envy. This kind of approach is ‘risky’ as you’re partially falling in her hand by giving her what she wants, and likely she’ll use it to get more free validation.

      And of all the lines I suggested to Robinhood this is one of the weaker ones

      Her: Hahahha everyone can afford vacations! You are from [Sunny Country], why you are complaining?! :)

      “Hahahah” – means it landed

      “everyone can afford vacations” – tell that to the poor kids in Africa, means that yes, she doesn’t have compassion

      “You are from [sunny country]” – now she’s switching to rapport and bringing up information about you, this means ‘she remembers and cares’

      “why are you complaining” – this is a neg. Paired with the ref that she knows you’re from a sunny country, this also means she envyes you,

      What is the direction that it should go?
      What I do know is that I have to reward her for playing along on the vacation theme

      Yeah but slow it down. Is this a real convo or you made it up? she sounds like an alpha chick and is talking with top guy structure

      She gave a Hahahahaha which is an arousal spot, then went for rapport and broke it with a neg, and is now leading into making you justify yourself.

      Let’s assume it’s real. You can address several things

      1) Double down on her Hahaha ‘lack of empathy’, now with more neg because she negged

      Me: You’re like a fat kid eating candy in front of the orphans
      Her: hahaha

      2) Focus on the rapport part of her reply and make it all about yourself.

      Me: Yeah Im from [Sunny]
      Me: We’ve got the best beaches
      Her: blah blah
      Me: I’ll take you next time I go

      3) Address the neg. You can address the neg by negging her back (my fat kid example), or playing along and make it into an opportunity

      Me: meh, Im saving for [my next lamborgini] and can’t afford travel
      Me: All I can afford is popcorn, wine and watching marathons of [Buffy show] on Netflix
      Her: Oh I love [Buffy show]!!!

      ================================

      Back to you

      Me : Everyone needs a bit of fun outside their home country ;-)

      Shit game.

      But why?

      You need to make this about YOU. And then HER. And it needs to be dominant, clear, and leading. This line fails on every aspect

      “everyone” is you diffusing your own voice and authority. It’s like when you say “hey guys!” before making the joke, you’re trying to get the tribe involved instead of leading first. This is asking for permission. You don’t need permission from the tribe or approval or anything external validating your opinion. You don’t need her to agree. This isn’t not about ‘everyone’. This is about you. And HER.

      “a bit of fun” this is like an old lady speaking. The smallness of it makes it sound that sex with you is ‘a bit of fun’ so you have a very small dick.

      “outside of their home country” So what you’re aiming here, or the innuendo, is that it’s more fun to fuck people who are exotic, is that it?

      IF that is what you’re trying to communicate, SAY IT

      Me: Im from [Sunny], I got bored from the girls from there

      Or

      Me: Im from [Sunny], but I prefer the girls from other places

      Here you’re leading and not sticking to the very precise framing she gave you, which leads to

      Me : The sun is too much. I want snow ;-)

      Unless ‘snow’ is a common slang for ‘fucking you in the ass’ this line is shit game and ‘gay’.

      Why?

      “the sun is too much” you play along with the neg she gave you, and actually complain. So her neg was like a dick and you found an ass to give to her dick and now she fucked you with it. She said ‘no complaints’ and you complained

      “I want snow ;-)” What are you flirting towards there? to the snow? Im guessing her picture had snow, if so this is a very weak attempt at saying that you’d like to be in the picture with her?

      Don’t flirt to a ‘third thing’. If your idea is that you’d like to fuck her in the location she’s on in that picture, go there

      Me: Yeah. Have you had sex in the snow?

      The “yeah” dismisses her stacking and neg, the ‘have you had sex in the snow’ LEADS in the direction you want.

      LEAD.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/22/2018 at 7:07 am

        Your lines are so bad you’re probably very good looking. If you’re attractive and the girl is super DTF and you say

        “everyone needs a little bit of fun ;-)”

        The girl will perceive the sexual innuendo and jump on it like a feral animal who smelled blood.

        So if you’re good looking this is how the shitty game has been slipping through your fingers all these years. You get the YES girls all crazy even with shit game, but then can’t lead the girls you like because somehow making remarks that you have a small dick doesn’t work on them

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/22/2018 at 5:00 pm

          …how the shitty game has been slipping through your fingers all these years

          I only really started to take specific notice of girls really interested in me (ie. seeing specific behaviours) since last year (May 2017) which is when I found rational male by rollo and then Krauser, daygame, etc.

          Before then it was girls I would see on + off for sex (it just happened with them) and other girls just being “friendly” wanting to talk with me. I had no fucking clue these friendly girls wanted sex.

          As I was not looking at these girls for sex, they were glued to me (nice looking). If I ‘tried to get sex’ from a different particular girl – everything malfunctioned and fell apart (as already explained before a few times)

          I am sure that the above is from ‘dominance / confidence / swagged’ which comes from my professional life. I even recall my first job, the management rated me downwards because they said I was a bit arrogant. What came from this is the writing style and physical behaviours you are seeing from me where I am generally ‘tip toe’ and use words to be ‘diplomatic’.

          But things are changing in my mind and I can feel a stronger direction coming from me bit by bit.

          Please do continue your smackdown of all my interactions.

          Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/22/2018 at 7:23 am

        This one works too

        Me: Yeah. Have you had sex in the sand?

        This line is more plausible than ‘having sex on the snow’ as ‘having sex on the beach’ is a romantic type idea that is actually shitty when put in practice, so it’s funny. Also ties the ‘you’r from [sunny]’, makes it about YOU, and now also she gets a flash of having sex with you on that place.

        So she’d laugh to that

        Her: You’re from [sunny] don’t complain
        Me: Yeah. Have you had sex in the sand?
        Her: hahaha no (blah blah)
        Me: Try it, it gets everywhere

        Me: [break rapport and take this somewhere new]

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/22/2018 at 2:41 pm

        Here’s my roadmap on where I’d take that convo based on the information so far. These are thing that would be said, stacked or with pauses to let her react. Based on her reactions some of these things would not be said, or would change, or would be exaggerated, etc, depending on what she reacts to.

        Coming from this

        ================

        Me: nice pic
        Me: you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
        Her: Hahahha everyone can afford vacations! You are from [Sunny Country], why you are complaining?! :)

        ================

        I’d say these

        ================

        Me: Everybody can afford it? tell that to the poor kids in africa
        Me: You’re like a fat kid eating candy in front of the orphans. Aren’t you

        Me: Don’t get me started on [Sunny place], plenty to complain about it
        Me: There’s a lot of sand.
        Me: Have you tried having sex on the sand?
        Me: It gets everywhere

        Me: is that picture in Sweden? looks like Sweden, I was there last year
        Me: The snow looks comfy

        Me: Im saving money for a lamborgini and can’t afford travel sadly
        Me: All I can afford is popcorn, some wine and a subscription to Netflix
        Me: Wanna watch a marathon of [Show] with me? I have to catch up with [show 2] too

        ========

        Do you see the things Im doing above?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/22/2018 at 5:32 pm

          Let me see if I can break this down:

          ”
          Me: Everybody can afford it? tell that to the poor kids in africa
          Me: You’re like a fat kid eating candy in front of the orphans. Aren’t you
          “

          The first line is continuing the thread (theme) of travel affordability. This is a question + statement format. Doesnt exactly feel like RAPPORT + BREAK RAPPORT as it is more a retort back (ie. reject her comment).
          The second line is the double down on the “you just dont care” part. The format is statement + (rhetorical) question (no punctuation). This would be almost like a neg but feels like a funny comparison (painting images in her mind).
          The general flow of the lines is good and feel like someone ‘sparing’ in real time

          
          ”
          Me: Don’t get me started on [Sunny place], plenty to complain about it
          Me: There’s a lot of sand.
          Me: Have you tried having sex on the sand?
          Me: It gets everywhere
          ”
          

          The first line would be to continue on the [Sunny Place] aspect of her response and is a ramp.
          The second line is also another ramp.
          The third line is the LEAD to another direction (sex).
          The fourth line is like a punchline of a joke.
          When combining lines 3+4, it forms question + statement

          If I was to type it myself, I would compact it from four lines into three lines:
          Me : Don’t get me started on [Sunny Place], plenty to complain about.
          Me : There is a lot of sand
          Me : Have you tried having sex on the sand? It gets everywhere

          
          ”
          Me: is that picture in Sweden? looks like Sweden, I was there last year
          Me: The snow looks comfy
          ”
          

          The first line is question + statement (yohami RAPPORT + BREAK RAPPORT)
          The second line is a new direction (from travel -> sex).

          
          ”
          Me: Im saving money for a lamborgini and can’t afford travel sadly
          Me: All I can afford is popcorn, some wine and a subscription to Netflix
          Me: Wanna watch a marathon of [Show] with me? I have to catch up with [show 2] too
          ”
          

          The first line is a funny outlandish response (ie. I dont care what you think)
          The second line is doubling down on the first line but already putting in wine (for sex) after a movie. This is a ramp.
          The third line is the new direction + call to action (format of question + statement)

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/22/2018 at 6:32 pm

            Good read, some pointers

            Me: Everybody can afford it? tell that to the poor kids in africa

            Has the same logic and structure as

            50 cents? you’re rather cheap

            It’s taking her rapport and breaking it into a new direction, while passing judgement, while negging, while making humour. The very predictable response to this will be a ‘hahaha’ from her

            This followup line is ‘tagging the joke’, in this case I don’t wait for the hahaha because Im assuming compliance, which is again breaking rapport.

            Me: You’re like a fat kid eating candy in front of the orphans. Aren’t you

            This is mainly because she negged you. She negs = she gets immediate payback. This is how you signal from moment 0 that you’re not a guy she can mess around with

            Which means she’ll love it.

            Me: Don’t get me started on [Sunny place], plenty to complain about it

            Likewise she said ‘what are you complaining about’ and my response is ‘plenty’ so Im directly contradicting her. So again this is a wall for her neg. Note that I am not actually complaining, but rejecting her judgement. When she tells me she doesn’t want me to do something (control me), I may do just that.

            Me: There’s a lot of sand.

            And now this is leading in another direction. The reason I do this line alone is that she doesn’t know where Im going. Im leading, but where? ok now there’s sand on her mind… and

            Me: Have you tried having sex on the sand?

            This is actually an invitation to have sex with me on the sand: that’s the image she’ll have. It’s like when you ask a girl “do you like sushi” you’re effectively asking to eat sushi with you. So here I just put the image of me fucking he on the sand, in the middle of a joke, which lands

            Me: It gets everywhere

            And like this she doesn’t even need to answer if she’s got sex on the sand because that was fake rapport. Now this sand stuff is actually me complaining, which she asked me not to do, but I made it a joke so I know exactly what Im doing, pushing her boundary and showing her I don’t give a fuck about it, but I’ll respect it if I want to, all while putting my dick inside of her on a beach, now she has that sensation too.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/22/2018 at 6:52 pm

              “This is mainly because she negged you. She negs = she gets immediate payback. This is how you signal from moment 0 that you’re not a guy she can mess around with”

              This is important. Particularly ‘she negs = she gets immediate payback’. This actually ties into previous experience I mentioned earlier when a girl pushed the boundary with me, I said ‘fuck you’ is a playful way and literally showed her the finger (it was all reflex). All these girls loved it!

              It was the 50 cents story that I didnt see as a neg on me bypassed my reflex reaction that I was giving to the other girls.

              ”
              Me: There’s a lot of sand.

              And now this is leading in another direction. The reason I do this line alone is that she doesn’t know where Im going. Im leading, but where? ok now there’s sand on her mind… and”

              This I didnt pick up before. When I was trying to compact the lines, I was trying to go from 4 to 2 but couldnt get this line into the first. The compacting was trying to reduce the ‘line count’ to prevent me from just sending and sending. From what I see, the line is acting as a spacer between the existing thread and the new one that you would be creating (in the direction of sex).

              “This is actually an invitation to have sex with me on the sand: that’s the image she’ll have. It’s like when you ask a girl “do you like sushi” you’re effectively asking to eat sushi with you. So here I just put the image of me fucking her on the sand, in the middle of a joke, which lands”

              This also explains the concept well of putting sex on her mind. It seems so obvious when you compare it to ‘Do you like sushi?’ just the same with ‘Do you like Italian or French food?’

              “Me: It gets everywhere”

              This part I didnt think of it in terms of actually complaining as you described it. I thought it was just a funny comment. I can see how you are using it as a way to ‘push forward’ again after having taken a step back first. I will need to observe more ‘composite responses’ from girls to be able to pick these out and know how to respond in the fashion you mentioned.

              [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

              On the general mechanics of the phrasing:

              Me: Have you tried having sex on the sand? It gets everywhere

              vs

              Me: Try having sex on the sand. It gets everywhere

              From your latest explanation, I can understand that the first would be on the lines of ‘you like sushi?’ logic but the second one has the same content and is composed of two statements and still seems to communicate the same (in words).

              Why would the second one not be as good as the first?

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/22/2018 at 8:04 pm

                “Me: Try having sex on the sand.”

                That’s not longer an invitation to do it with you – now it’s effectively talking about a ‘third thing’

                When you say “have you had sushi [before]” that ties in to having the experience with you, for the first time maybe.

                If you say “try sushi” you’re sending her to try it on her own.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/22/2018 at 8:28 pm

                Makes perfect sense.

                The sushi analogy is so perfect to explain this.

                There is also another ongoing chat with another girl that is probably tanked already (2x serious blunders). will see if anything continues but the individual breakdowns over the past few hours already cover everything that went wrong.

                Upside is that individual debugging is helping me see the patterns where I have been going wrong in verbals (and hence mindset)

      • Lucretius says:

        05/22/2018 at 4:36 pm

        
        Me: nice pic
        Me: you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you

        Flirts are about HER. The mention to the pic is only used here to point at her compassion or lack of. To use this line she has to be FLAUTING the amazing time she’s having on a vacation, she needs to be engaging in instagram fame whoring, she needs to be a flaunter, so this flirt is a neg, right there her pride is. The reason this neg is a flirt is that it’s a negative for that also validates her, beacuse yes, she has no compassion and what she’s trying to produce is envy. This kind of approach is ‘risky’ as you’re partially falling in her hand by giving her what she wants, and likely she’ll use it to get more free validation.
        

        Thank you for this explanation. I had an incling that it was something along these lines. The above points to a wider aspect of where I need to figure out what the girl is trying to communicate to the outside world via her profile pic and work with that. I would also have to think in two minds for the moment (ie. what would bottom guy say? do not say that thing; vs What would top guy say? ).

        
        Her: Hahahha everyone can afford vacations! You are from [Sunny Country], why you are complaining?! :)

        “Hahahah” – means it landed

        “everyone can afford vacations” – tell that to the poor kids in Africa, means that yes, she doesn’t have compassion

        “You are from [sunny country]” – now she’s switching to rapport and bringing up information about you, this means ‘she remembers and cares’

        “why are you complaining” – this is a neg. Paired with the ref that she knows you’re from a sunny country, this also means she envyes you,
        

        The above actually surprised me because I was not breaking the sentence up into parts and then analyzing the individual parts. Somehow it was stuck in my mind that every individual sentence (as in text sentence exchanged) was either a reward or neg or trap or etc, but I need to learn to break each sentence up and look at what each part is about and then decide on how to respond to each part (if at all).

        The response I gave was (as written):
        Me: You’re like a fat kid eating candy in front of the orphans

        Nothing back yet

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

        On the comments about me, this is still habit of speech that needs to be addressed (social conditioning + habit will take a few weeks to clear)

        On the point of snow, there was no snow. The profile picture is of her in sunny place with boats in the background (looks like a marina). My response was coming from the place of ‘wanting something different’. You broke it down and provide how I should of stated it (ie. go there).

        This line feels good to me:
        Me: Im from [Sunny], but I prefer the girls from other places

        The above is continuing the thread of sunny while also starting to take it to speaking about girls (sex) – this part is the leading.

        On the general point of leading, thank you for providing this example and also putting the word LEAD next to it. I always thought that the leading was in the actions only but it is everything (action, thoughts, verbals). Noted for future.

        Reply
53. Lucretius says:

    05/22/2018 at 4:19 pm

    Different girl

    I had checked online at the drinks platform for various people that were registered and sent out pings. The idea is the same as always (more practice) where I will likely make mistakes but these mistakes are important for me to make such that I have a real-world ‘reference experience’ of what happened when I said one thing or another. In other words, I need to feel the effects of failure and success such that my instinct is altered.

    Background
    This girl had a profile picture with little information (she is russian and artist). The picture was a bit grainy but was of a girl sitting on a bench at a famous water landmark and pigeons in the background.

    Text Transcript (incl. spelling as is)

    [Line 1] Me : nice picture
    [Line 2] Me : you have no compassion for the people who can’t afford vacations, do you
    [Line 3] Her: Thank you for comments [Name]!
    [Line 4] Her: I like you picture to!
    [Line 5] Me : Was a sunny day and went on the boat along the water
    [Line 6] Me : I’ll take you next time I go
    [Line 7] Her: That will be nice!!

    Thought Process
    [Line 1] – This is the ramp for the next line (ie. was looking at your picture)
    [Line 2] – This is the actual line (neg). This was sent before yohami explanation of the neg where she is meant to be flaunting “look at me”. Didnt apply here.
    [Line 3] – She does not pick up on line 3 and just thanks me for line 1
    [Line 4] – She is mirroring me by complimenting me back on my profile pic
    [Line 5] – I reward by responding on the same topic and I lead the conversation somewhere and connect her to me by telling her that I take her along next time
    [Line 6] – She is ecstatic

    I stop at this point because from her lack detailed replies, I am trying to see if there was more in her profile picture to move the conversation along. It has an artist name so I google it and this same profile picture comes just more resolution (on google). This explains why I thought the pic was grainy and its because it is a painted photo. I am guessing it is her (body nice) but cannot make out face. As I dont know what the person I am speaking to looks like, I just stop at this point.

    If I was to continue, I would of said:

    [Line 7] Me : When are you free? I take you out.

    Comments
    While there are not many lines to the above, the things I do feel positively about are:
    – I didnt get stuck after the opener didnt land
    – I gave more information on my profile picture and included fun activity (boat ride)
    – I connected her and me together by leading (I take you next time). She received this well

    I would say that this is a ‘beta girl’ as she is just not saying much at all. If this conversation was happening 2 months back, I would of likely tried to keep the conversation going by talking and talking and likely falling into rapport.

    Thoughts?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/22/2018 at 4:20 pm

      Little typo on the numbers for the lines but it clear what I am referring to

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/22/2018 at 4:36 pm

        She is massively DTF. Likely half or more all the girls you know are DTF. Bang her

        Reply
54. Lucretius says:

    05/22/2018 at 6:06 pm

    Opening exercise (finding something to ping):

    What would be the opening line with this information?

    Girl in photo, white shirt, smiling, 1/4 turn to the side (ie. work kind of profile photo) but there are bottles of alcohol in the background (perhaps office bar). Her demeanour looks very professional / business like.

    The ramp is simple but not sure of the main point. Something to the effect of:

    Me : nice pic
    Me : Is that alcohol in the background? the boss may catch you

    or

    Me : nice pic
    Me : you dont care if the boss catches you with that alcohol in background, do you

    My thought process for the above is to ping her ‘professionalism’ and play with that (using alcohol in background). This would be similarly to a girl that is flaunting her travel location and by pinging it, the same is done with the professionalism in the above scenario.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/22/2018 at 6:16 pm

      “Me : nice pic
      Me : Is that alcohol in the background? the boss may catch you”

      That one is better. Is there anything else you can say to flirt about her that is not related to the other stuff in the pic that is not her? ‘third thing’ lines are weaker than direct flirts

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/22/2018 at 6:21 pm

        Nothing else that I can see – it looks like a work photo.

        Gentle smile
        No distinct pose
        No hand gestures or anything
        No unique clothes that I can infer something of her personality – just plain white blouse (top button open)

        Unless you can figure something on that, I go with the boss catch you open and see what happens

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/22/2018 at 6:38 pm

          That’s good enough and she should ‘hahaha’

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/22/2018 at 7:04 pm

            Sent.

            Thinking about this, can you give some examples of how the flirting with her directly would go?

            We already discussed the nickname as in ‘hey [nickname] ;-)’.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/22/2018 at 8:05 pm

              Hey sexy

              Reply
55. Lucretius says:

    05/23/2018 at 3:59 pm

    The bulgarian girl pinged me a few moments ago. I actually deleted her phone number based on the mistakes I made last time thinking that it was nothing there (privacy settings are off so she cant tell). Given the text chat is already far up on the page, I reproduce it below:

    [~~~~ Original Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
    [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

    [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
    [line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

    [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish
    [line 06] Her: Yes

    [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember
    [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

    [line 09] Her: Ha ha
    [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

    [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
    [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later
    [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

    [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
    [line 15] Her: Some day
    [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]
    [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]
    [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be

    [line 19] Me : Ciao ciao
    [line 20] Her: Ok ciao

    [~~~~ New Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [line 21] Her: Was wondering how is it going with that enchanter man I’ve met the last weekend [Emojie wink]
    

    My thinking here is to respond as below:

    
    Me : Hey ;-)
    Me : I see you are still chatting me up, sexy brunette
    

    The logic here is not really to say what I am doing (talking with other girls) since then at the moment. Depending on her response, I have to see where it goes.

    On related note, she changed her original profile photo of her on the beach in bikini (view from back) to some place with sun + sea and flowers in front without her in it (likely holiday photo)

    Counter suggestions?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/23/2018 at 4:37 pm

      Alternative:

      Me : Hey Sexy Brunette
      Me : I see you are still chatting me up ;-)

      Line 1 is reward
      Line 2 is call back + flirt

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/23/2018 at 5:18 pm

        No dont send that. brb

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/23/2018 at 5:40 pm

        Me: hey sexy ;-)
        Me: All good and you?
        She: blah blah
        Me: When are you free? Iets go for a drink or something

        ==============

        The above turns her rapport into sex

        Your lines were stuck in the past and not leading

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/23/2018 at 5:52 pm

          “The above turns her rapport into sex
          Your lines were stuck in the past and not leading”

          I didnt think of the first point (or every saying sexy – i got to remember this)
          On the second point, good that you mention this as I also now need to lead forward in time (not only in action or gambit or frame). Another thing added on which to lead.

          Messages sent.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/23/2018 at 6:30 pm

            Aight, so focus here:

            1) Why is she contacting you, what does she want?

            2) What is she doing in her email exactly? flirt? rapport? break rapport? tease? call to action? what

            3) Now look at yourself. What do you want to happen next with her?

            4) Now check your texts. What are you doing in line 1, and what are you doing in line 2? and are you leading or following?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/23/2018 at 7:01 pm

              This is her line:

              Her: Was wondering how is it going with that enchanter man I’ve met the last weekend [Emojie wink]

              Let me try:

              1) Why is she contacting you, what does she want?
              She is contacting me to see what I have been up to. She also flirts. But I also think she is testing to see if I again start to ask her for a drink.

              2) What is she doing in her email exactly? flirt? rapport? break rapport? tease? call to action? what
              She is doing flirt (the adjective of me with wink) + rapport

              3) Now look at yourself. What do you want to happen next with her?
              I want to get her out to bang her.

              4) Now check your texts. What are you doing in line 1, and what are you doing in line 2? and are you leading or following?
              My initial line 1 was a reward for her contacting me (ie. good girl for contacting me)
              My initial line 2 was a call back to the previous joke she hahahaha. After reading your comments, I can see that this is just stagnating back into the same place (ie. no new energy). I would have to lead forward.

              Just got a reply from her:
              [Line 24] Her: Also good… busy working

              In the above she is making (asexual rapport) and also putting up a wall (trap) for me. I think that here she is one part explaining what she up to but also baiting me to say something like ‘text me when you free’ or some other remark like ‘good you working’ or to ‘try to make plans now’ while she is busy (ie. see if I am bottom guy or not).

              For background information, she is working at a restaurant at the moment until she find something more solid for her. She turns phone off and then on every hour – can see via delivery receipts

              My initial reaction was to not interact with the wall and send:

              Me : Ping me when you are free

              But given the previous interaction, I am not sure if I am falling into the trap or not. Silence is one option but it doesnt feel right here. Silence only feels best when girl is giving me shit / non-sense.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/23/2018 at 7:02 pm

                For answer to Q1, she is also wondering if I am with other girls or not.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/23/2018 at 8:16 pm

                She gave you a wall:

                “[Line 24] Her: Also good… busy working”

                Neg the wall, then reframe

                Me: Work is boring
                Me: Want to go out a drink or something?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/23/2018 at 8:23 pm

                I will use the lines.

                She is at significant physical distance from me (40min travel). During the in person interaction, there was a tussle where she wanted me to go to her and I was saying that she must come to me (the distance is across two cities). I broke this tussle by saying “we will see”.

                If she says yes for the drinks, I am very confident she is going to ask me to travel to her. I dont want todo this for a number of reasons:
                1) I have no idea about her area meaning I have to follow her around her area (ie. I cannot lead)
                2) Making the trip to her is a ‘material’ investment from my side (time + money)
                3) There is no sex location that I can think of there. if I make a calculated guess, she likely renting a room and therefore may have flatmates meaning no sex there.

                If she comes to me, I can control all three of the above point.

                My issue, is how do I not ‘go back to the past’ and fall into a tussle?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/23/2018 at 8:28 pm

                Havent send the response yet.

                Thinking about it, the 2nd line is phrased like ‘do you want to get a drink, now?’ where I know she will say no because of distance.

                How would I phrase it differently?

                Me: work is boring
                Me: want to go for a drink or something later in the weekend?

                Here I have to put a time period (weekend) because I cannot do anything before saturday. Saturday also allows for sex to happen if she over in my area

        • Lucretius says:

          05/23/2018 at 7:41 pm

          Me: When are you free? Iets go for a drink or something

          Why is it ‘lets go for a drink or something’ instead of ‘I take you out’?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/23/2018 at 8:14 pm

            Because you already were tussling with that line with her before in real life, can’t use the same line twice in a row. The ‘drinks or something’ matches the casual framing of the rapport

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/23/2018 at 8:31 pm

              Noted.

              I must also consider the framing of the rapport.
              If she just checking to see how I am, then I just suggesting a casual get together (drink or something)

              Reply
56. YOHAMI says:

    05/23/2018 at 8:35 pm

    Lucretius,

    Her: Was wondering how is it going with that enchanter man I’ve met the last weekend [Emojie wink]

    Let me try:

    1) Why is she contacting you, what does she want?
    You: She is contacting me to see what I have been up to. She also flirts. But I also think she is testing to see if I again start to ask her for a drink.

    Wrong answer. She’s contacting you because she wants to be fucked.

    2) What is she doing in her email exactly? flirt? rapport? break rapport? tease? call to action? what
    You: She is doing flirt (the adjective of me with wink) + rapport

    She’s doing a classic pua line. “I was [doing x] and though of you”. She calls you an ‘enchanter’ which is a nickname for you, so she’s trying to frame you into a roleplay. Girl game. The wink is a flirt. She is MASSIVELY DTF and doing the moves for you.

    3) Now look at yourself. What do you want to happen next with her?
    You: I want to get her out to bang her.

    Good! then you need to lead in that direction.

    The funny thing is you think you have to chase and deal with walls. She’s giving you nothing but openings. Deal with the openings. Lead.

    4) Now check your texts. What are you doing in line 1, and what are you doing in line 2? and are you leading or following?
    You:My initial line 1 was a reward for her contacting me (ie. good girl for contacting me)
    My initial line 2 was a call back to the previous joke she hahahaha. After reading your comments, I can see that this is just stagnating back into the same place (ie. no new energy). I would have to lead forward.

    Nope! look

    “Me : Hey Sexy Brunette”

    You’ve got two flirts there, sexy, and brunette, so this is overgame. But more to the point: the color of her hair was a subject of discussion before, and now by saying the proper color you’re signaling that you ‘care and remember’. So this line already communicates you’re chasing. “Hey I care, I remember, and Im going to give you free rewards”

    What would be better?

    “Hey sexy ;-)”

    Another option if you want to piss her off a little and continue the older dynamic

    Me: Hey redhead ;-)

    There you stomp a little over her boundary in a friendly way so she’ll hahaha some. Compare it to yours again

    “Hey [Sexy] [ Brunette ]”

    Translates to

    Hey [ I give you my sexual validation ] [ And I care and remember about this particular trait you have and I bring it up for no reason other than to signal that I care and remember ]

    Me : I see you are still chatting me up ;-)

    This is shit game plus a million.

    First, you’re going back in time again. Right after you ‘care and remember’ you do another callback. This is the opposite of leading, you’re stagnating.

    Second, this is punishment, because you injected a ‘still’, so she is ‘still’ chatting you up, so you put it in a timeframe where at some point that should stop, you’re expecting it to stop, so her behavior is undesirable. You’ve got a girl who is 100% DTF and you’re punishing her. You did this before so it’s a pattern.

    Third, you’re mirroring. Yes, she is chatting you up, and you’re using space to narrate what she is doing.

    Overdoing it:

    Her: Hi
    You: Hello to girl who says hi to me

    Her: Hello enchanter
    You: Hi girl who calls me by funny names

    What?

    Also – when you deleted her contact you were reacting to a WALL that was only in your imagination. YOU fucked up, but she was nothing but compliant all along. So look at the disconnect.

    You deleted her because you think there’s a wall and nothing can be done about it, at the same time that she’s touching herself and opening you and calling you enchanter and expecting that you’re going to make some moves to fuck her, asap.

    And you’re deleting her contact.

    ….

    [Line 24] Her: Also good… busy working
    You: Ping me when you are free

    No! dude, she already pinged you! twice! she’s opening you here! what are you going to do when she pings you again? are you going to end that chat an ask her to ping you again on another time? take fucking action.

    Me: Work is boring
    Me: Let’s have a drink or something

    Met her and bang her.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/23/2018 at 8:38 pm

      “Me: want to go for a drink or something later in the weekend?”

      There you’re introducing a wall, aka you can’t fuck her on thursday? what if thursday is her day off? what it shes ON today?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/23/2018 at 8:45 pm

        Point made. I sent original message.

        Lesson learnt is not to put in a wall (ie. my availability). If she happens to pick a time that I am not available, then I got to figure something out.

        Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/23/2018 at 8:42 pm

      I am going to reread the above three times over to make sure I get it right.

      On the deleting the number, you right that I thought I fucked up (flat lander also mentioned this) but lesson learnt.

      Mechanics I need to re-read.

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/23/2018 at 8:43 pm

        She is at significant physical distance from me

        Remember that she threw up the travelling wall when you met, because she wanted you to bang her that night.

        It’s all a shit test. She went very far away with her girlfriends and sent you a video. If she can come to the drinks event in your area, she can come to have drinks with you in your area when you take her out.

        SHE CAN AND WILL TRAVEL ANYWHERE (if she feels like it)

        Your job is to work with her arousal, not with her demands, objections and general bullshit.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/23/2018 at 8:49 pm

          Agree, specially this

          “she threw up the travelling wall when you met, because she wanted you to bang her that night.”

          Now Luc is dealing with imaginary walls and bending to imaginary conflicts

          Can’t make this shit up

          “SHE CAN AND WILL TRAVEL ANYWHERE (if she feels like it)”

          Yes.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/23/2018 at 8:49 pm

          Yes she can – I know this.

          My issue is if she starts to try to get me to go over to her which is what she was doing before. It is technically an opening but I dont want to go to her for the reasons mentioned.

          I cant push away because it is not a wall. So what do I do?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/23/2018 at 8:56 pm

            “So what do I do”

            You bang her, she was in front of you.

            Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/23/2018 at 8:47 pm

      Comments

      During the in person interaction, there was a tussle where she wanted me to go to her and I was saying that she must come to me (the distance is across two cities).

      Why does she want you to go to her city?

      To get fucked. That’s the only reason.

      So there’s no tussle. You evaluate if fucking her is worth the 40 min travel, and if so, do it. If not, don’t. But she’s asking you to come to her location and fuck her.

      Only in your mind this is “come to my location and don’t fuck me”. BUT, if you operate within that belief, then she’ll pick on it, lose arousal, and the ‘puzzle becomes harder’

      Does she need to spell out verbally that she wants you to go to her place and fuck her?

      This is why I said somewhere else, just add [to have sex] to everything that is said. Don’t forget it.

      1) I have no idea about her area meaning I have to follow her around her area (ie. I cannot lead)

      Yes you can lead. “let’s go to your place”

      2) Making the trip to her is a ‘material’ investment from my side (time + money)

      Yep. Evaluate if this is worth your time. That’s your ‘top guy screening’ process.

      3) There is no sex location that I can think of there. if I make a calculated guess, she likely renting a room and therefore may have flatmates meaning no sex there.

      She’s asking you to go to her location and fuck her. She’s got part of the logistics handled. If not, you take her to a motel, or to a car, or a bathroom, or elevator, or her place, or whatever.

      The girl will put herself in situations where you can make the move. Make the moves.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/23/2018 at 8:54 pm

        I am over thinking things and seeing issues where there are none.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/23/2018 at 8:55 pm

          You’re looking for WALLS

          Look for OPENINGS instead.

          Look for opportunities, not obstacles.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/23/2018 at 8:55 pm

        On the upside, I am glad I could be of some humour while I am adjusting to everything :-)

        Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/23/2018 at 9:22 pm

      “You’ve got two flirts there, sexy, and brunette, so this is overgame. But more to the point: the color of her hair was a subject of discussion before, and now by saying the proper color you’re signaling that you ‘care and remember’. So this line already communicates you’re chasing. “Hey I care, I remember, and Im going to give you free rewards” “

      On this part, I was actually trying to use the same line from your corrected text chat but now I see why this would be a problem. The point you are making on this is that if I am using any bit of information from the girl that the girl has already corrected me on, it is wrong.

      “Second, this is punishment, because you injected a ‘still’, so she is ‘still’ chatting you up, so you put it in a timeframe where at some point that should stop, you’re expecting it to stop, so her behavior is undesirable. You’ve got a girl who is 100% DTF and you’re punishing her. You did this before so it’s a pattern.”

      This is a new perspective for me. I didnt realize that I was actually punishing her. This was reflex to just say still. Noted.

      “Third, you’re mirroring. Yes, she is chatting you up, and you’re using space to narrate what she is doing.”

      This is noted. I should not narrate what a girl is doing.

      <strong<“No! dude, she already pinged you! twice! she’s opening you here! what are you going to do when she pings you again? are you going to end that chat an ask her to ping you again on another time? take fucking action.”

      I was completely blind to this. She did ping me and then put up the wall ‘busy working’. My thinking was not to interact with it but I didnt see the overall context that she opened me.

      I really have to think that if the girl opens me, she wants to be fucked and I need to get the logistics going to move forward.

      Reply
57. Lucretius says:

    05/23/2018 at 9:54 pm

    Different question:

    If a girl goes quiet, how long before I can send a ping (if at all) such as:
    Me : Hey ;-)

    Technically the above would be CHASE but I am thinking that I have deleted numbers because I havent heard from girls in 4 weeks so I consider it dead and move on. But given the above episode, I am probably missing something.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/23/2018 at 10:30 pm

      There is no cost in trying to resurrect dead leads.

      But if you smashed into her walls or failed to see the openings, she has labelled you accordingly as a LOOOOOOOOOOSER!!!

      A Hey from a loser is really too weak to achieve anything.

      You must make her think that the label she gave you is wrong. You need to make her doubt, This is a tall order, as girls are very slow to change their first impression.

      Method
      Extremely cool photo ping with you surrounded by cool and gorgeous people
      +
      Smart comment.

      However it’s much better to pursue new leads and create a consistent pipeline of new girls to process.

      Reply
58. rivelino says:

    05/23/2018 at 10:55 pm

    Me: Work is boring
    Me: Want to go out a drink or something?

    GENIUS LINE by yohami.

    Reply
59. Lucretius says:

    05/24/2018 at 5:55 am

    Here is the text chat thus far:

    [=== received at 5:00pm ===]
    
    [line 21] Her: Was wondering how is it going with that enchanter man I’ve met the last weekend [Emojie wink]

    [line 22] Me : Hey sexy [emojie wink]
    [line 23] Me : All good and you?

    [line 24] Her: Also good … busy working
    [line 25] Me : Work is boring
    [line 26] Me : Want to go for a drink or something?

    [=== received at 2:30am ===]
    
    [line 27] Her: Completely agree with you
    [line 28] Her: But it’s also necessary [emojie smilie blushing] specially when is connected with moving in a new house and buying some furniture
    [line 29] Her: Would be wonderful to see you again but probably will be possible next week

    [~~~~ Thought process ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    As she is opening me and making moves on me (ie. she wants me to fuck her), this becomes the “point of gravity” of the text exchange and therefore my focus must be on this aspect.
    The messages come in late likely after she finished working at the restaurant

    [line 27] Her: Completely agree with you
    This is her agreeing with my judgement (where I negged her wall). Nothing for me todo here.

    [line 28] Her: But it’s also necessary [emojie smilie blushing] specially when is connected with moving in a new house and buying some furniture
    This is her justifying why she is working (ie. qualifying herself to me). Her [emojie smilie blushing] tells me that she not happy where she is staying and looking forward to moving to new place. Initially I thought that I would connect the “new house” to sex by saying something like “New house to yourself? Privacy is important” but the more I thought about this, the more I understood that this is wrong because I am interacting with an imaginary wall (ie. no sex location on her side). It also feels disjointed the more I think about it (considering the point of gravity). In short, there is nothing for me todo here.

    [line 29] Her: Would be wonderful to see you again but probably will be possible next week
    This is what she really wants and gives me a timeslot (next week). This is the OPPORTUNITY that I need to take.
    Her suggesting next week also prevents a logistics issue on my side since Saturday is the earliest I could meet her.

    [~~~~ Proposed Response ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Given all the above, I would respond with:

    [line 30] Me : When are you free next week? We meet up ;-)

    The thought process for the above is to directly acknowledge that she wants to meet up and I am requesting logistics within her time slot.
    The wink is me flirting as I know whats up.

    Counter suggestions?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/24/2018 at 6:46 am

      Reply this:

      Me: Next week works

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/24/2018 at 7:01 am

      [line 27] Her: Completely agree with you

      Strong compliance, massively DTF

      [line 28] Her: But it’s also necessary [emojie smilie blushing]

      Justifying herself to you, aka you’re the boss

      specially when is connected with moving in a new house and buying some furniture

      This is normal conversation / rapport skill. Give more information than you’re supposed to, don’t answer things in yes / no, and don’t ask questions that can be answered with yes / no. So here she’s just expanding the data playground. In a normal conversation this can result in interesting stuff, for example if she like wooden dwarves you can tease her about all the money she’ll need to buy a hundred dwarves for the new home. Stuff like this is what happens when you do good rapport: witch each line there’s MORE data added to the pool, more things to connect and play around with.

      In this case though, you’re correct there’s nothing to act on immediately. Just remember she’s moving to a new place.

      Also that place is probably where she wants to nest with you, plus Mario and Pablo.

      [line 29] Her: Would be wonderful to see you again

      Not only she’s DTF but it would be “wonderful”, she makes strong remarks. “Completely, wonderful, enchanter” etc. She punctuates things. All has been super positive so far – expect her to be as punctuating when things go sour and negative, keep an eye on how she handles people she doesn’t want around – that’ll be you someday.

      but probably will be possible next week

      That’s a wall – but just a logistics wall. No sex for you this week (too busy fucking another guy), but probably she’ll be free next week.

      The part of this that it’s an opportunity is that she said yes to having sex with you in the future. The wall is the WHEN. So you deal with the opportunity as a given, and ignore the wall

      Me: Next week works

      See? now it’s happening. Let’s compare it against your instinctual response:

      [line 30] Me : When are you free next week? We meet up ;-)

      Shit game again.

      Why? because the wall is the WHEN. She’s clearly stating the wall. It’s “but probably next week”. Probably means she doesn’t know right now. That’s on her to figure out. Her walls are not your problem. But here you’re EXPLICITLY going after the wall

      You: “when are you free next week”

      She just stated she doesn’t know. Plus this is in a week. If you’d be banging 15 other chicks you don’t even know if you’re available in 2 days. You can’t see that far. You’re not going to be chasing this pussy now. The weekend is just ahead of you. So this chick just gets moved back to the cue, and when she’s ready, she’s ready. Not your problem.

      You: we meet up ;-)

      She already said YES to having sex with you next week, so you’re reiterating here for no reason. Then the wink is a flirt, after you just tried to push against the wall.

      The mix of these ingredients: pushing against a wall, doubling down on trying to get her compliance after she just gave it to you, reveals that you’re ‘pushy clingy needy’ bottom frame. So look at THERE inside of you.

      The girl was DTF and you deleted her contact.

      Now the girl is completely open and you’re pushing against a logistics wall.

      Off balance.

      Do you see the path?

      You lead her

      Me: Work is boring, let’s have a drink or something
      She: it would be wonderful, next week we fuck?
      Me: That works

      DONE.

      Fucking done.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/24/2018 at 7:43 am

        Message sent as you suggested.

        It is just unbelievable how it is that I am not seeing these walls but at least seeing some others. I need more practice on this with different examples.

        On the smilie wink, I am understanding that this is for everything flirt before sex is tacitly stated. Right?

        I always thought that wink would be used whenever there is sex talk covertly but it seems not.

        On other note, improv workshop on Sunday (2 hours). If it good (2-3 different companies available), I will signup for 8 week course. Need to reread the part of data pool you mentioned.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/24/2018 at 7:50 am

          The wink means flirt – yes. It also means ‘you know what this is about’. Use it to punctuate things when needed. For example

          Hey

          Is very different than

          Hey ;-)

          The latter is an invitation to play, the while the first one is a dry ping. A dry ping is perfectly fine on it’s own when you’re not trying to play but just demanding that she replies to something

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/24/2018 at 8:49 am

            She replied with:

            [line 31] Her: Great

            From here there would be silence from my side until she comes back with a ping. No wink from here on as everything is agreed

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/24/2018 at 8:55 am

            On the topic of winks, is the ;-) the only wink that is applicable in all cases?

            What about :-P during a tease?
            I have a concern that sometimes via text, a neg may be done (eg no compassion) but without any punctuation (smilie), the girl may misinterpret it and think I am serious about it instead of trying to tease.

            In person, there is voice tone and body gestures that carry the message across but via text, it isn’t there

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/24/2018 at 9:12 am

              Her: Great

              No contact until it’s time to bang – you can ping her on thursday next week if she havent pinged you by then (but likely she will as she’s been the horny driving force thus far)

              :-P

              That works for teases but it’s less necessary. And the less emoticons you use the better.

              Emoticons are useful for framing. It’s a non-verbal.

              Use them only to make obvious that something is a joke that would be perceived as being harsh

              She: You owe me 50 cents
              Me: 50 cents???
              Me: Per hour? you’re rather cheap :-P
              Me: I was planning to pay you at least 60 cents
              Me: The things you would do for a dollar

              There the emoticon frames all the subsequent lines as being in that funny mode. Compare

              She: You owe me 50 cents
              Me: 50 cents???
              Me: Per hour? you’re rather cheap
              Me: I was planning to pay you at least 60 cents
              Me: The things you would do for a dollar

              Now the whole tone is drier, more nasty

              And SOMETIMES being drier and nasty is required. Context is king.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/24/2018 at 10:22 am

                If used in the context of neg on open, should a ;-P be applicable on opening line or on subsequent line on the double down?

                My gut says that on opening it should be used on first line and not on second.

                I agree with using sparingly else the wink loses its value

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/24/2018 at 10:45 am

                It depends on context. Are you opening with a massive neg?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/24/2018 at 12:13 pm

                I wasn’t thinking strength of neg.

                Can you give example of both low strength neg and high strength neg?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/24/2018 at 12:58 pm

                Soft neg

                Me: Hey redhead

                Medium neg

                Me: Hey airhead

                Strong neg

                Me: Did you cum too hard and now the janitor is after you

                Stronger neg

                Me: Hey piece of shit

                =========

                Add a :-P to each and see how they change

      • Lucretius says:

        05/24/2018 at 6:29 pm

        “The mix of these ingredients: pushing against a wall, doubling down on trying to get her compliance after she just gave it to you, reveals that you’re ‘pushy clingy needy’ bottom frame. So look at THERE inside of you.”

        On this part, I was parroting back and adjustment of “When are you free? I take you out” and was not reading the context. The wink issue has already been addressed from subsequent posts.

        Reply
60. Lucretius says:

    05/24/2018 at 7:38 pm

    The following is a conversation I started online (event platform) where there was a cute girl with flowers in her hair on the water.

    Girl is responding with only close bracket like ) as her smilies
    Same as before – more practice.

    This text chat was ongoing over the past few days but no new responses have come in.
    Following the prior examples on this page, one can see that I am ‘stitching’ components from other chats and seeing how things go.
    Overall, I can find a few of my blunders but am likely misreading something here.

    [~~~~~ Text Transcript ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    
    [==== Starts late in evening ====]
    [line 01] Me : nice picture
    [line 02] Me : you look like a hippie ;-)
    [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)
    [line 04] Me : its ok to be a hippie sometimes
    [line 05] Me : Where is the pic taken? looks like [Country]
    [line 06] Her: Yes, of course, I even was on the boat at the momement…) in [city]
    [line 07] Me : Lovely.
    [line 08] Me : You look lovely too
    [line 09] Her: Thank you..) where are you from? From [Country]? Are you leaving in [City]?
    [line 10] Me : Parents are both [nationality] and were travelling around the world at the time. They had me while in [Country] which is where I grew up.
    [line 11] Me : Country is great for tourism but horrible to live there (serious problems). As soon as I was tall enough to sit upright in an airplane seat, my parents took me travelling to see the world and we visited [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country].
    [line 12] Me : After my studies and having had enough of [Country], I wanted to come and live in [Country]. As I had a knack for computers, I left for [Country] doing specialist IT work. A few years later here I am in [City] ;-)

    [==== Continues next morning at 7am ====]
    [line 13] Her: All around the world… and have you every been to Russia?
    [line 14] Me : so what’s up with you
    [line 15] Her: I was born in Moscow, I was living in Moscow, and we go around with my parent only around USSR, so… boring, I went to University in Moscow. And after some time I moved to [Country] for work, and after few years there, to [Country]. And right now I am going to [City] airport, and have a big chance to miss a flight….
    [line 16] Me : meh
    [line 17] Her: Ok, I am in time now. Good start of a day.
    [line 18] Me : Try sex in the morning
    [line 19] Me : ;-)

    [==== Next day in morning at 8am ====]
    [line 20] Her: Yes, this is also nice start and end of a day…)
    [line 21] Her: How long are you already in [City]?
    [line 22] Me : Good girl for keeping your days in order.
    [line 23] Me : A while already – depends on work. Thinking of staying as is fun place.
    [line 24] Me : What about you, find anything to keep you here ;-)
    [line 25] Her: I just have a working contract. We have a lot of opportunities, but up to now I like here, in [City]. I miss Russia, in any case…)
    [line 26] Me : Many people come for work. Those who have fun, stay.
    [line 27] Me : What crazy things you done here? I only see a hippie on a boat
    [line 28] Her: Which crazy things you mean? Tell me some example of yours, so I can understand what do you mean.
    [line 29] Me : Use your imagination ;-)
    [line 30] Her: The latest crazy thing for me was [Popular field run challenge] run with obsticals. Difficult but funny…)
    [line 31] Me : What did you find funny? I imagine you covered in mud like a mud wrestling girl
    [line 32] Her: Exactly… but then I felt down in the cold water, while closing the canal on the robe over this canal and I washed myself in dirty water… a lot of fun.
    [line 33] Me : what you wearing while having dirty fun? something loose ;-)
    [line 34] Her: No..) I have been well prepared, the most loose I had in the mud is sneakers. I thought they will stay in a mud.
    [line 35] Me : Hmmm … well prepared and you like it tight against your body ;-)

    [==== End of conversation – no new replies ====]
    

    [~~~~ Thought process ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [==== Starts late in evening ====]
    [line 01] Me : nice picture
    [line 02] Me : you look like a hippie ;-)
    [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)

    This was the opener used from the robinhood chat. It matched the profile picture and she accepted it nicely by returning smilies. In retrospect, the smilies mean I found an AROUSAL point but dont know what todo here.

    
    [line 04] Me : its ok to be a hippie sometimes
    [line 05] Me : Where is the pic taken? looks like [Country]
    [line 06] Her: Yes, of course, I even was on the boat at the momement…) in [city]
    [line 07] Me : Lovely.
    [line 08] Me : You look lovely too

    In my response for [line 04] I didnt know how to adjust for her response. I was not sure if I was going to be sucked into a rapport question like ‘What is your normal look? I imagine casual’ so instead I decided to continue with the frame of her being a ‘hippie’ (likely wrong move). I then moved the conversation forward by talking about a 3rd thing (accidental mistake) as was following robinhood chat. The more I think about it, the correct thing would of been to continue to talk about her by turning her last point into a question ‘a fake look?’ and seeing if she provides more information.

    For line 07, I reward her for playing along.
    For line 08, this was a BIG misstep on my part where I told a pretty girl that she looks lovely. After 10min from sending the message, I could feel in my stomach that I did it all wrong and that feeling has me very clearly not to compliment a girl on her good looks.

    
    [line 09] Her: Thank you..) where are you from? From [Country]? Are you leaving in [City]?
    [line 10] Me : Parents are both [nationality] and were travelling around the world at the time. They had me while in [Country] which is where I grew up.
    [line 11] Me : Country is great for tourism but horrible to live there (serious problems). As soon as I was tall enough to sit upright in an airplane seat, my parents took me travelling to see the world and we visited [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country].
    [line 12] Me : After my studies and having had enough of [Country], I wanted to come and live in [Country]. As I had a knack for computers, I left for [Country] doing specialist IT work. A few years later here I am in [City] ;-)

    From [line 09] she takes my free validation and smiles. This confirms my mistake from earlier. She is then stacking with more rapport. As I dont want to just cut to another topic and so provide a background story. This story is a bit better structured than the line used with tropical girl (in format) but is missing “drama / struggle”. I am still reading the book ‘into the woods’ which is on story telling structure. Next time I have to tell this story, I hope to have it improved. The wink at the end is to flirt with her.

    
    [==== Continues next morning at 7am ====]
    [line 13] Her: All around the world… and have you every been to Russia?
    [line 14] Me : so what’s up with you
    [line 15] Her: I was born in Moscow, I was living in Moscow, and we go around with my parent only around USSR, so… boring, I went to University in Moscow. And after some time I moved to [Country] for work, and after few years there, to [Country]. And right now I am going to [City] airport, and have a big chance to miss a flight….

    On line 13, she takes note of me DHV that I travelled around the world but then asks about me going to Russia. Going through my mind is that she may drag me into a Rapport trap and therefore just move forward as I dont want to talk about Russia. In retrospect, she may have wanted to tell me something about Russia that was important to her and perhaps I should of just said ‘No I havent but perhaps one day. So what’s up with you’

    On line 15, she is giving me all the boring stuff and only now in retrospect do I see that she is mirroring my exact structure but then adds at the end that she is about to miss a flight (ie. telling me she cant talk). I see this as a WALL.

    [line 16] Me : meh
    [line 17] Her: Ok, I am in time now. Good start of a day.
    [line 18] Me : Try sex in the morning
    [line 19] Me : ;-)

    As I am seeing her trying rapport, I have the troublemaker chat going through my mind and I dont want to get stuck into the details of her rapport. I could not see anything on which to say anything and just say ‘meh’. At this point I am starting to think that I am coming across as a bit of an asshole (dont know if it is good or not).
    On [line 17] she comes back within 10 min and says ‘good start of a day’. I see this as an opportunity to change the topic and introduce sex (I was thinking about how to introduce sex when I asked her ‘whats up with you’ but got rapport back)
    On [line 18] I introduce sex into the conversation. The phrasing was wrong and this was written before yohami ‘sushi explanation’. The correct phrasing here would of been “Have you tried sex at the start of the day? Makes for good mornings”
    On [line 19] was a reflex smilie sent 10min later in an attempt to connect the ‘sex’ with ‘me’ by me flirting. Not sure if using a smilie with line 18 would be recommended or not

    [==== Next day in morning at 8am ====]
    [line 20] Her: Yes, this is also nice start and end of a day…)
    [line 21] Her: How long are you already in [City]?
    [line 22] Me : Good girl for keeping your days in order.
    [line 23] Me : A while already – depends on work. Thinking of staying as is fun place.

    On [line 20] is an OPENING but I didnt see it at the time. I was just so focused on rewarding her to talking about sex that I didnt see her escalate.
    On [line 21] is her already moving forward doing more rapport (I still got troublemaker chat in my head and dont want todo rapport)
    On [line 22] is me reward her talking about sex with me and also me completely missing the boat. I should of escalated further with something like “Have you tried sex for the whole day? It makes for good days”
    On [line 23] is me moving forward with the discussion looking for something else to build on. I answer her question briefly and mention that it is fun here and want to stay

    [line 24] Me : What about you, find anything to keep you here ;-)
    [line 25] Her: I just have a working contract. We have a lot of opportunities, but up to now I like here, in [City]. I miss Russia, in any case…)
    [line 26] Me : Many people come for work. Those who have fun, stay.

    On [line 24], I am using the component from the polish with a wink pointing at me.
    On [line 25], she responds with three parts. Part 1 = work contract (I notice the word ‘just’ but dont know what todo with it). Part 2 = This is the first introduction of the word ‘we’ which I understand as boyfriend in the background. Part 3 = again with Russia rapport but with a smilie this time. It still feels like rapport but I am starting to get an inclination that I may be missing something here (or it could be bait).

    [line 27] Me : What crazy things you done here? I only see a hippie on a boat
    [line 28] Her: Which crazy things you mean? Tell me some example of yours, so I can understand what do you mean.
    [line 29] Me : Use your imagination ;-)

    On [line 27] I am trying to move forward again with the conversation and trying to get sex back into the discussion as it was going again to rapport.
    On [line 28] I recognize “top guy” structure of question + statement with rationale (bait). I know that if I give her an example, I am falling into her frame
    On [line 29] I reply defensively with a command with a wink (flirting with her)

    [line 30] Her: The latest crazy thing for me was [Popular field run challenge] run with obsticals. Difficult but funny…)
    [line 31] Me : What did you find funny? I imagine you covered in mud like a mud wrestling girl
    [line 32] Her: Exactly… but then I felt down in the cold water, while closing the canal on the robe over this canal and I washed myself in dirty water… a lot of fun.
    [line 33] Me : what you wearing while having dirty fun? something loose ;-)
    [line 34] Her: No..) I have been well prepared, the most loose I had in the mud is sneakers. I thought they will stay in a mud.
    [line 35] Me : Hmmm … well prepared and you like it tight against your body ;-)

    On [line 30] she takes the non-sexual interpretation but then gives me a smilie. I look up the challenge she was talking about and see pictures of girls in mud. The smilie looks like an OPENING for me
    On [line 31] I make use of the funny + mud in question + statement format
    On [line 32] she doesnt give reply to funny but focuses on mud and uses the words dirty + fund
    On [line 33] I then again re-use her words and twist them sexually again with a flirt
    On [line 34] She gets my flirt from the use of her smilie. She talks about well prepared and most loose clothes
    On [line 35] I take the words again and double down on the sexual inuendo with a wink. I was trying to get a reaction at this point before closing that maybe I see her at an upcoming drinks.

    [~~~~ General Thoughts ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    All while the text exchange was happening I had 2 things going through my mind:
    – Focus on the sexual aspect
    – Dont fall into rapport

    If I look at the above discussion now after it has ‘ended’ (ie. no new responses in 24 hours) I can see clearly that I having a frame clash and am not synched with her at all.
    I seem to think that every little thing she says is either an OPPORTUNITY or a WALL (trap) whereas in normal social discussion I would not find this. There must be a neutral component to some responses is (I think). Having now seen where the Bulgarian text chat has gone, I am thinking that I have seen imaginary walls (traps) everywhere and likely caused the complete conversation to break apart (ie. it is all DEAD). In short, I think I need to be a little more relaxed during these chats as being ‘uptight or searching for stuff’ is causing me to behave really strangely and messing things up. Re-reading everything, it just feels terrible how the chat went but felt very different in the moment.

    As mentioned earlier, the above chat was ongoing as the other posts by yohami were coming in but it already reached its endpoint by then.

    Thoughts?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/24/2018 at 8:18 pm

      You lost it at line 4.

      [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)
      [line 04] Me : its ok to be a hippie sometimes

      Can you guess my reaction to line 4. It starts with G and ends with Y.
      Then 11, 12 ,13 BOOOOOOOOORING!!!

      All the rest is pointless chat about irrelevant bullshit. No wonder she’s not responding. You bore her out of her brains and crept her out with “sexual innuendo”.

      *you like it tight against your body *: this creeps ME out.

      Better:
      [line 01] Me : nice picture
      [line 02] Me : you look like a hippie ;-)
      [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)
      [line 04] Me : You’re big trouble, girl.
      [line 05] Her : hahahaha
      [line 06] Me : yeah, this city is not big enough for both of us.
      [line 07] Her : hahahaha
      [line 08] Me : we need to settle this the old way
      [line 09] Her: how?
      [line 10] Me : drinks next week

      From there on, it’s simple logistics.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/24/2018 at 8:23 pm

        I like the style in the lines.

        There is obviously a problem in “sexualizing my lines”. I just simply dont have the skill for it at this time and it is coming out all weird + creepy (only notice after I have sent it)

        But I have to keep making mistakes to eventually feel the failures else it will always be “what if I said this? or that?”

        Good lines again, very different from you ‘asshole approach’

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/24/2018 at 8:24 pm

        Good stuff.

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/24/2018 at 8:26 pm

        “[line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)
        [line 04] Me : its ok to be a hippie sometimes”

        Yeah, she says she’s not a hippie but he misses that it’s ‘fake’ which is what he needs to address, instead he validates her for being a hippie, which she’s not.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/24/2018 at 9:28 pm

          How do I address the fake look?
          I noticed this part while happening but dont know how to actually take it forward.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/24/2018 at 9:47 pm

            Me: so you’re fake uh!

            Tease.

            Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/24/2018 at 8:23 pm

      Some good things, lots of bad things.

      Where are your call to actions? to bang her you need to take her out.

      She offers compliance a bunch of times and you go for rapport.

      When you’re going for sexual frames you’re ‘sneaking it in’ instead of leading her into it.

      This is anti game:

      [line 35] Me : Hmmm … well prepared and you like it tight against your body ;-)

      That’s the equivalent of you jerking of to her picture in front of her. Free sexual validation for nothing in return.

      That line is not ‘flirting’ because it’s fully expressed sexual desire, but in gay form. Because you’re not trying to fuck her. You’re verbalizing out loud that you have sexual fantasies about her, but being safe and guarded.

      You could have taken her out after line 10. Instead you kept kicking around the bush and trying to be sexual but not focusing in arousing her.

      This lead is not dead though. Cut contact for a few days and it will come back to life. The last line is uber bottom guy so if you keep chasing after her silence-wall you crystalize it. Let it breath so she sees you’re a creep but not needy, and because you’re good looking and she was DTF at the beginning of the chat this likely will get reframed.

      Man what a bad line :-D

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/24/2018 at 8:29 pm

        “That line is not ‘flirting’ because it’s fully expressed sexual desire, but in gay form. Because you’re not trying to fuck her. You’re verbalizing out loud that you have sexual fantasies about her, but being safe and guarded.”

        As mentioned with Flat Lander, I was trying to work with the words and it just went to shit. I would rather just not continue anything more with her as it kinda makes me feel a bit weird. I actually hope I dont see her in person – will lead to awkwardness as that last line with be in my mind.

        The upside is that my lesson has been learnt the harsh way.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/24/2018 at 8:36 pm

          No – you’re still taking it too seriously. The lead is not deaed, and there’s nothing harsh about it yet. You just don’t know what you’re doing.

          The main problem with the chat is not the last line or the injections of sex that don’t tie to anything, but the lack of leadership

          You went to talk and talk and talk and talk shit and never try to arouse her, make her hahaha, and never lead her anywhere. All that rapport, from her side, is just giving you chances to actually make your moves, and you refused to make any. So right now she’s jut disappointed

          You can send a picture of a guy wearing tights or whatever to reframe that last line, or send a pic of a cat or whatever random, and when she reacts with a hahaha, do the fucking move and ask her out.

          You’re not leading. LEAD.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/24/2018 at 9:08 pm

            On the chat, there is only text possible (no images). If you want to suggest something, I can send it else I just leave it. If tomorrow she happens to be there, I hope for no awkwardness. I rather speak with other pretty girls and hope she doesnt come to join the group and make the connection.

            [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

            The issue that I am seeing in myself now versus before can be explained with an analogy.

            Before I would be just going about my day to day with normal vision and see social interaction and be generally blind to nuances (ie. girls like me).

            Then I read this thing on girls and how to speak with them in concept of DOORs, WALLs and Sex. So I try it on.

            Now it is like I have DOOR_WALL_SEX binoculars strapped to my head where I cannot see the normal social interaction anymore and and seeing all manner of non-sense that is actually not there. As I know I need to put sex into every conversation (lead to sex), my mind is trying to make connections (as seen with practically a wink everywhere) and the weird lines are what came out.

            In short, I am both misunderstanding and both overshooting the concepts so somehow I have to break this process but it is something that my mind has to work out on its own. But this needs more examples, more success + failures and more alternate solutions.

            I am definitely taking this seriously and it likely is too serious. This can all be put down to a mindset problem (technically everything is mindset) but analyzing intellectually it doesnt change the underlying dynamic of the issue. I believe that I have to feel the difference to know what is right and what is not (just as you and FlatLander are able to). In other words, if I use a line and it is well received, I get positive re-enforcement and visa versa with bad lines when they go very wrong.

            In the moment during the chat, I was trying to apply what I had (thought I) learn but obviously from the result, I was wayyyyyyyyyy off the mark. It is in feeling kinda shitty after writing my thought process that I get the deep emotional unsettled feeling on certain parts that will prevent me from writing the same type of lines in the future.

            The issue is that the above is only addressing “What to NOT do”.
            It does not address “What I must do” and this is the alternative suggestions that I am getting from yourself and Flat Lander for me to try next time (hopefully correctly on my part).

            [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

            On the lighter side (and for everyone else’s amusement), my learning experiences are good cannon fodder for yourself and Flat Lander (and for everyone else sniggering but not posting). I am sure FlatLander is either laughing or crying in stitches in Poland, as may you be wherever you are in Europe.

            :-D

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/24/2018 at 9:36 pm

              “normal conversations”

              There are not “normal” conversations. You’re doing sexual courtship. She’s not having a conversation with you: she’s evaluating if you’re top / bottom guy.

              What you have to do now which you’re not doing is to PAY ATTENTION.

              You’re going in robot mode, instead of going in investigative mode.

              You can’t ‘add more sex’ because nothing about this is random. You have to PING, she will REACT, and then you act on her reaction and lead her somewhere else.

              You’re going offsynch because you’re not paying attention. Look.

              [line 01] Me : nice picture
              [line 02] Me : you look like a hippie ;-)
              [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)

              Is she a hippie or not? she just exposed information about herself

              1) She is not hippie
              2) She fakes her appearance

              Since she’s not hippie what is she? posh?
              And is she a faker? what else does she fake?

              FlatLander addressed the ‘fake’ aspect by calling her trouble. That’s a good read and response.

              This is not a game you can do in your own by randomizing lines you’ve seen somewhere and throwing them to the girl to see what sticks. You need to look at HER.

              She’s the one giving you the opportunities. You have to take them, to take her.

              Engage with her.

              Not your solo dance.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/25/2018 at 7:31 am

                “This is not a game you can do in your own by randomizing lines you’ve seen somewhere and throwing them to the girl to see what sticks. You need to look at HER.”

                This is part of the core problem that I have where I think I have ‘todo something’ like start a discussion. While I am applying the lines that I have seen somewhere, this is not without method. What I am trying todo is see how the teasing works with an actual example (ie. gauge response).

                For this girl, it was “You look like a hippie ;-)” and got good response – I just fumbled from there.

                Thinking about it earlier today it reminds me of when I was in a sky lounge last week at 2am and saw two girls sitting by themselves holding their drinks.

                I went up to them and things went like this:

                Me : Mind if I sit here?
                Girl 1: Sure (she moves her bag out of the way)

                Me : My name is [name]
                Girl 1: Hi, my name is [name]

                Me : And you are? [looking at girl two]
                Girl 2: I am [name]

                Me : So where you two from and what you doing here? you are sitting alone
                Girl 1: Yeah, we on holiday for a week here. not much happening here at the moment.

                Me : blah blah blah

                [=== it goes no where and 10min later they looking at phones for an Uber===]

                There are so many issues with the above but it was already 1 weeks ago that I can see that I am asking for permission (putting myself lower), trying rapport, etc.

                Predictable in retrospect considering the last chat case with fake hippie girl (ie. I am trying to make a conversation instead of ‘performing sexual courtship’)

                If I had started with:

                Me : Both of you girls look like unhappy statues holding drinks [I would say while smirking]

                The above would of likely got me the ‘hahahaha’.
                It also follows the ‘You look like a [X]’ format of the tease. In getting better at teasing, I have to mend my mind towards describing girls and the environment in this ‘funny analogy indirect way’ and lead from there.

                The ironic thing is that I sortof have this skill in me but it not always coming to the surface (or only delayed). The other aspect is improv which would train my mind to think as ‘Yes, and …’ which will allow me to rub those arousal spots and tease further.

                I have drinks again later today – will report back anything relevant.

          • Lucretius says:

            05/24/2018 at 9:26 pm

            On the Lead part, be useful for me if you could provide suggestions on how it can be lead forward from different parts of the text chat.

            I still seem to have it in my mind (a gap you mentioned) that a certain amount of time / hahaha is required before I can ask her out. it is still something I got to work through and see what is the minimum + optimal amount of exchange before asking her out (.eg 2x hahaha or 4x smilie or ???)

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/24/2018 at 9:37 pm

              NO, lose that robotic approach.

              Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/24/2018 at 8:39 pm

          When you used this line before (with the girl you wanted to give jealousy to) I explained how it’s shit game

          [line 29] Me : Use your imagination ;-)

          It’s still shit game

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/24/2018 at 8:40 pm

          [line 27] Me : What crazy things you done here? I only see a hippie on a boat

          Shit game and rapport. Are you trying to arouse her?

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/24/2018 at 8:44 pm

          So you’re going for rapport, and when she says whatever, you try to reframe what she said into sexual, as in “oh I picture you in a sexy image and Im jerking off to it”

          [line 31] Me : What did you find funny? I imagine you covered in mud like a mud wrestling girl

          This is anti game. Or, you’re cloning behaviors of undesirable men, instead of cloning behaviors of attractive men.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/24/2018 at 9:13 pm

            See explanation above for what is happening. I am trying to add sex into the conversation but it not going right.

            I am misunderstanding a few things

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              05/25/2018 at 12:05 am

              No. You must stop adding anything to any conversation apart from the following elements:
              1. opener
              2. tease (optional, if she’s getting wet after the opener)
              3. (once she’s aroused) propose a date.
              4. logistics

              That is all.

              Girls find you very attractive. They want your dick, not your conversation. So the less you write, the better.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/25/2018 at 6:19 am

                I am thinking that you making good assessment here where it feels like I am making it more complicated than what it is.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/25/2018 at 6:21 am

                “making it more complicated” you’re assuming rejection and try to soften them up with rapport

                What you have to do is ping, arouse, escalate, take them out, lead

          • Lucretius says:

            05/25/2018 at 7:50 am

            Explanation understood – Noted.

            Reply
61. YOHAMI says:

    05/25/2018 at 7:25 am

    Breakdown

    [line 01] Me : nice picture
    [line 02] Me : you look like a hippie ;-)

    Fine so far

    [line 03] Her: But I am not…) it’s a fake look…)

    She’s DTF. “fake look” is an invitation to play, you got a little tease back.

    Me: ouch you’re one of these fake girls

    That would make her justify herself, that’s the game she initiated and it’s fine as you’re the judge of fake. The Flatlander alternative “you’re trouble” works too. I prefer to go deeper before reframing, so she exposes her game more

    [line 04] Me : its ok to be a hippie sometimes

    Shit game, she’s not hippie, the invitation is to explore what’s fake and why she’s faking it. Also you’re validating her as in ‘thanks for playing’ but she didn’t play, she teased back.

    [line 05] Me : Where is the pic taken? looks like [Country]

    You break rapport in structure, which is fine other than your previous statement being nonsense so this is weaker. Because it was nonsense, she doesn’t experience a surge of interest that now you’re cutting short by breaking rapport, instead she experiences a ‘wtf’ and now you lead in another direction.

    The thing with breaking rapport is that you have to produce an emotion, and then go somewhere else so that emotion doesn’t dissipate with the rapport, because rapport dissipates things and resolves tension. So.

    Me: ouch you’re one of these fake girls
    Me: Where’s that picture taken? looks like russia

    Like that my judgement produces an emotion, then I move the subject somewhere new. So she’ll try to justify that she’s not fake while the conversation is already going somewhere else. That spike of tension is what produces the ‘hahahahs’

    [line 06] Her: Yes, of course, I even was on the boat at the momement…) in [city]

    “yes, of course, I even” sounds annoyed, which is the opposite of the ‘hahaha’

    [line 07] Me : Lovely.
    [line 08] Me : You look lovely too

    GOOD. Saved some face here.

    [line 09] Her: Thank you..) where are you from? From [Country]? Are you leaving in [City]?

    So you piked her interest again and she wants to feel more.

    Me: Im from a bunch of places, yeah Im here for the time being

    Instead you took this little question as an invitation for deep boring mundane rapport nobody has a reason to give a fuck yet:

    [line 10] Me : Parents are both [nationality] and were travelling around the world at the time. They had me while in [Country] which is where I grew up.
    [line 11] Me : Country is great for tourism but horrible to live there (serious problems). As soon as I was tall enough to sit upright in an airplane seat, my parents took me travelling to see the world and we visited [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country] to [Country].
    [line 12] Me : After my studies and having had enough of [Country], I wanted to come and live in [Country]. As I had a knack for computers, I left for [Country] doing specialist IT work. A few years later here I am in [City] ;-)

    Delete this from your toolbox. I see you tried to inject some of the words and bits. But it’s not about the words and bits. It’s about storytelling. You’re not telling a story but enumerating boring facts, there’s no imagery, passion, hero, drama, anything to get involved in. Because you’re jumping this early so deep into boring rapport, you just labeled yourself as a beta. You’re not talking to her vagina here. You’re filling an application form.

    So as a task for you, for the next 15 girls you talk to keep your set of facts completely hidden. Remove this pattern and see what you can do to do other stuff.

    Girl: Where are you from?
    Me: Jamaica ;-)
    Girl: what? I don’t believe you
    Me: Sorry, Japan
    Girl: ahaha where are you from?
    Me: It’s a secret, Im James Bond

    [line 13] Her: All around the world… and have you every been to Russia?

    She invests enough on the rapport to ask you questions. You’re on thin ice though

    Here’s one of many approaches that could work depending on the girl

    Me: Nop, Im afraid of russian girls
    Girl: haha why?
    Me: They are fake ;-)

    [line 14] Me : so what’s up with you

    You ignore that her interest is piked. So she gave you an opening there, and you’re moving on and cutting her interest. You’re punishing her compliance. It’s safe to say this is a pattern.

    [line 15] Her: I was born in Moscow, I was living in Moscow, and we go around with my parent only around USSR, so… boring, I went to University in Moscow. And after some time I moved to [Country] for work, and after few years there, to [Country]. And right now I am going to [City] airport, and have a big chance to miss a flight….

    She mirrors your boring rapport tirade. See how she injects the ‘boring’ word there. This is not interesting. This is like doing paperwork, and going nowhere. She ends that by adding a time constraint, which means that your time is running out. Hurry up and make something happen with her.

    [line 16] Me : meh

    Now you’re punishing her rapport. Again the girl is in compliance and instead of escalating you punish her.

    Me: Go girl don’t miss that plane

    This breaks the boring shit so the net time you talk you can do things properly

    [line 17] Her: Ok, I am in time now. Good start of a day.

    She’s staying for so long in your bad game that you’re probably a golden ticket otherwise. Im amazed of the tolerance of girls for shit game to be honest

    [line 18] Me : Try sex in the morning
    [line 19] Me : ;-)

    You’re not leading towards sex otherwise, not going for arousal and not escalating on their compliance and not messing with their boundaries and not doing anything really, so this sex allusion is random and jumpy.

    [line 20] Her: Yes, this is also nice start and end of a day…)

    Still she reacted positively to it. She is DTF. She effectively ESCALATES your sexual remark to say that it’s nice to fuck at the night too. You’re dealing with a very sexual girl, she just gave you another ‘piece of the puzzle’. She reacts badly (bored) to rapport, she teases back when you tease, and she escalates on sexuality. These are the things to pay attention.

    Me: And nice for lunch breaks too ;-)

    [line 21] Her: How long are you already in [City]?

    She escalates on sexuality and then changes the subject. This is ‘top guy’ language, she’s an alpha girl. Now she’s leading you around.

    [line 22] Me : Good girl for keeping your days in order.

    Fucking lame. You’re again ignoring an opening, and rewarding her for… keeping her days in order? are you her mom? “good girl” is the antithesis of pinging her sexuality, which she just exposed. Do you notice how she asks you how long are you in city? why do you think that is?

    BECAUSE SHE WANTS SEX, WANTS TO BE BANGED IN THE CITY

    Me: A few months, lots of things going on here
    Me: When are you coming back? let’s go for a coffee or something

    LEAD.

    [line 23] Me : A while already – depends on work. Thinking of staying as is fun place.

    Weak.

    [line 24] Me : What about you, find anything to keep you here ;-)

    And you pass the ball to her for more rapport, that she already labelled as boring, while ignoring that she escalated sexually, and is more than ready and has been for a while for a call to action from you….

    I get that you’re using ‘bits and words’, ‘find anything to keep you here’ and you’re going to try to signal that you’re the reason. But you’re past so many windows of opportunity you’re just kicking around the bush. You could have used this line a long time ago instead of all the others

    [line 25] Her: I just have a working contract. We have a lot of opportunities, but up to now I like here, in [City]. I miss Russia, in any case…)

    She just told you she’s single. “I just have a working contract”. See how she doesn’t say family or friends or a boyfriend. She’s got ‘lots of opportunities’ and work. And random betaboys who ping her and can’t take her

    line 26] Me : Many people come for work. Those who have fun, stay.

    What the fuck are you doing. I get you’re ‘passing judgement’ of some sorts by stating things. But the point of passing judgement is showing authority, “that sucks” or “that rocks” sort of thing. Here you’re just being bland, and not taking the opening she just gave you again

    Me: Let’s go to Russia, it’s on my to-do list

    “to-do” is sex in case you’re wondering. But what Im doing here is call to action and roleplay. Her ‘hahah’ will be arousal and then I bang the shit out of her

    [line 27] Me : What crazy things you done here? I only see a hippie on a boat

    You’re doing statement + question as if you were going to break rapport, to go into more rapport. What the fuck are you doing / where the fuck are you going with this. Keep kicking around the bush?

    [line 28] Her: Which crazy things you mean? Tell me some example of yours, so I can understand what do you mean.

    Exactly. This is a wall – she wont show you hers until you show her yours. Or, what the fuck are you doing.

    [line 29] Me : Use your imagination ;-)

    This line pisses me off.

    If you want her to imagine things, put things on her mind.

    Me: Well a friends took me to a Peruvian stripper farm club
    Girl: what?
    Me: They had llamas and goats instead of girls!
    Girl: hahaha
    Me: Sheep on goat action
    Me: THAT was crazy

    But this is nonsense in the current context, you’re not interacting with HER so you’re in a very random place. The story above would not fit here, because you should not be here at all. She doesn’t want to hear crazy stories, she wants that you sober up and ask her out and stop the nonsense

    [line 30] Her: The latest crazy thing for me was [Popular field run challenge] run with obsticals. Difficult but funny…)

    Boring rapport. How is this conductive to sex? are you trying to bang her or put her to sleep?

    [[line 31] Me : What did you find funny? I imagine you covered in mud like a mud wrestling girl

    You’re doing the proper structure but the content is bullshit. “what did you find funny” you don’t care about this question, you’re just killing time. Then the statement “I imagine you…” you’re putting her on a pedestal to be admired, following the frame that you’re a betaboy behind a wall and you wouldn’t dare to ask her out and bang her. You making the image of she covered in mud etc is you fapping to her. This gives her free validation and signals you’re way too load in value to attempt to arouse her intentionally

    Me: So you got all covered in mud uh?
    She: Yes
    Me: Disgusting ;-)

    Or

    Me: I’d pay to see that

    Compare to:

    “I imagine you covered in mud like a wresting girl”

    That’s your image. It’s sexual. Where’s your judgement? it’s hidden. And where are you taking it? nowhere

    [line 32] Her: Exactly… but then I felt down in the cold water, while closing the canal on the robe over this canal and I washed myself in dirty water… a lot of fun.

    Rapport rapport Im going to fall asleep.

    [line 33] Me : what you wearing while having dirty fun? something loose ;-)

    Are you jerking off while imagining her? if so, at least say it

    Me: That’s turning me on

    [line 34] Her: No..) I have been well prepared, the most loose I had in the mud is sneakers. I thought they will stay in a mud.
    [line 35] Me : Hmmm … well prepared and you like it tight against your body ;-)

    Fapper.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/25/2018 at 8:39 am

      I am amazed again at how I am missing all the cues :-/

      Will need to reread again later today

      Reply
62. YOHAMI says:

    05/25/2018 at 7:39 am

    Luc,

    Me : Both of you girls look like unhappy statues holding drinks [I would say while smirking]

    That’s shit game. Can you tell why?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/25/2018 at 8:42 am

      At the time I wrote it, no

      But if you are challenging it, I can only think that it is because I am referring more to the situation of them being bored than of the girls themselves.

      Do I at least get points for description?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/25/2018 at 9:06 am

        So you’re in a party. Leonardo Dicaprio is there also hanging around, talking to a lots of people and holding a drink. You’re a girl and you’re talking to a friend. Leo passes by and says:

        Option A) What’s up girls

        Option B) Both of you girls look like unhappy statues holding drinks

        ==================

        In case this is not obvious enough, option A is assuming attraction and just saying hi. Option B is assuming rejection and trying to produce a reaction.

        You can still go with trying to produce a reaction. Here’s what Leo would say

        Option C) Sup girls you look bored

        But they need to actually look bored. Were the girls in your example bored?

        Option D) So where are you girls from?

        Then there’s a specific problem with your line

        “Both of you girls look like unhappy statues holding drinks”

        You’re negging them, but not really. It’s not real. You’re calling them UNHAPPY. Are they supposed to fight this back and show you they are happy? what sort of neg is an ‘unhappy statue’, it’s not clear, so it’s like you’re trying hard to be creative. You don’t have to try hard, and don’t have to be creative – not now. You have to PING them.

        Me: Hi, what’s up, where are you girls from?
        Girls: Cuba
        Me: wow! cuba is amazing (high five)
        Girls: hahaha
        Me: Im from [Place]
        Me: So what are you up to?
        Girls: blah blah
        Me: Im blah blah just killing some time

        Etc

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/25/2018 at 9:07 am

          If the girls are actually bored, offer them fun

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/25/2018 at 10:03 am

            The girls were bored. I was trying to creatively break the ice.

            As exercise, I am just going to start with ‘hey girls, what’s up’ for the next 5 girls in groups I see and get feedback from there

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/25/2018 at 10:24 am

              “I was trying to creatively break the ice [WALL].”

              You’re assuming there’s a wall (made of ice in this case) that you have to break.

              That’s the bottom frame showing up all the time.

              Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/25/2018 at 10:24 am

              “creatively break the ice”

              You get creative with the wall – what you have to get creative is with the arousal, the openings, the opportunities.

              Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/25/2018 at 10:12 am

            But your point is made in that I am coming from the wrong frame … again

            Reply
63. Lucretius says:

    05/25/2018 at 8:48 am

    On a separate note, if at night drinks I miraculously (at this stage) and able to get the girl aroused within 10min of discussion, should I try to move her somewhere else immediately or mingle with other girls while seeing if something better available?

    The context is that it is still early in the night. If it was later already then I would move to take her home.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/25/2018 at 9:12 am

      Framing is off man.

      and able to get the girl aroused within 10min of discussion

      So far you’re getting ALL these girls completely DTF just by saying hi, then you kill the attraction by doing beta rapport bullshit, punishing their opening, and escalating on walls. So what you have is stop doing bs.

      And you don’t need 10 min of ‘discussion’. What is there to ‘discuss’? The discussion is not what turns them on.

      should I try to move her somewhere else immediately

      No.

      mingle with other girls</strong?

      Yes.

      Practice being the celebrity guy going from one group to another. Every time you’re tempted to start your rapport routine bullshit, exit.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/25/2018 at 10:09 am

        The 10min discussion (interaction) was a context but you likely right that I would try to fill up the ‘time box’ as I have been doing before. Here I will actively avoid rapport.

        Tonight I will go in to just open and tease and stay away from any rapport (where you from? What you do? Etc). If a girl starts asking me rapport a question, on this I will give vague terse reply and try to tease / role play / judgement a bit more and then excuse myself to mingle. Is this right?

        What happens afterwards when it starts to get late? How does the interaction with the girl continue before I say let’s go somewhere else and continue?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/25/2018 at 10:58 am

          Hah man. Re read all the stuff so far. You’re locking yourself in boxes, and not paying attention to what the core principle is. This is what you have to do.

          PING, TEASE, ROLEPLAY, AROUSE, DOUBLE DOWN, TAKE COMMAND, DO CALL TO ACTIONS, LEAD.

          What you’re planning to do has nothing to do with the above, does it

          Tonight I will go in to just open and tease and stay away from any rapport (where you from? What you do? Etc).

          You can perfectly ask where are you from and what do you do, IF you’re going to rease, roleplay, arouse, double down, etc. See in my example above how I talked to the 2 girls? you need to ask questions so there’s data for you to play around.

          What you have to stop doing is your formulaic A B C D country country country bullshit that has nothing to do with courtship. You’re putting all that baggage in the middle of your courtship process which is why it’s going nowhere. Instead of putting bullshit in the middle, PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT SHE RESPONDS TO. She’s right there in front of you wanting to be fucked. LOOK AT HER.

          If a girl starts asking me rapport a question

          You tease roleplay arouse flirt take command and lead.

          on this I will give vague terse reply and try to tease / role play / judgement

          Not vague, and not terse, and don’t ‘try’ DO. But don’t vague and don’t terse. Don’t inject more unnecessary stuff.

          then excuse myself to mingle. Is this right?

          No!

          Try this. Keep ip fun. Talk to people and try to make it fun. When the energy starts going down, go for another drink or something and go talk to somebody else, then later re-initiate conversation with the people you already talked to.

          Keep it fun. Don’t be terse, don’t be vague, that’s not the point. Check my Jamaica / Japan / James Bond reframe above. That’s not terse or vague, that’s specific and fun, and Im not just leaving after that because ‘oh no here’s rapport’.

          What happens afterwards when it starts to get late?

          Wrong frame. Why is time pressuring you and controlling you?

          How does the interaction with the girl continue before I say let’s go somewhere else and continue?

          The interaction with the girl continues through tease, roleplay, arousal, double down, call to action, chilling, some (fun) rapport, games, messing around, escalating, leading her. This has NOTHING to do with the time it is, has nothing to do with ‘it’s getting late’, nothing to do with the day of the week, or the medium.

          before I say let’s go somewhere else and continue

          Continue what?

          :-)

          And why do you want to go somewhere else? to do what? are you making out with the girl yet? if she in compliance and DTF?

          Do you have any other event or bar you can go where you can break out of the current expat / couchsurfing type thing? You’ll need a lot of exposure and repetition and breaking patterns.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/25/2018 at 11:30 am

            Keeping it fun is what I always did in the past but didn’t need know how to “close” everything (was blind to girl liking me)

            On the getting late part, i was trying to say that at some point it is time for me to take a girl home. Here I was thinking that at this point it is me interacting with girl for a little while (teasing, arousing, etc) after coming back to her and if she aroused (hahahaha) then saying “come let’s go” meaning for her to leave with me. Can also say “get your coat. your leaving with me”. I imagine it would be clear that it is to my place.

            On other bars / events, there are. This one is convenient for me at the moment but will have to alternate it although the guys I know don’t want to go out unless their girlfriends coming along and this doesn’t make for a good situation. To solve this I need to meet other guys (cooler guys) and then go out with them to another bar and go from there.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/25/2018 at 1:12 pm

              “Keeping it fun is what I always did in the past ”

              When I say FUN I mean this:

              Ping, tease, command, arouse, roleplay, lead, tell her what to do, pass value, enact, organize, set boundaries, stomp over some, LEAD.

              That’s the fun you have to channel.

              ” but didn’t need know how to “close” everything”

              Then forget about what you were doing before. The FUN you have to go for is one where you’re closing nonstop. Every compliance the girl (and other people) gives you is a close.

              “i was trying to say that at some point it is time for me to take a girl home.”

              Yes but that’s not measured by the clock time.

              You keep thinking about gaps and necessary-time or whatever that must happen before you do the call to action.

              You do the call to action when you get compliance and you’ll get compliance when you tease and lead.

              That can happen at 3pm

              “Can also say “get your coat. your leaving with me”. ”

              Sure – is she aroused?

              “the guys I know don’t want to go out unless their girlfriends coming along”

              Ditch these friends for the time being, they are pussy whipped. Having friends who are pussy whipped is fine but here you need to maximize your contrast so you can wake the fuck up.

              Good luck!

              Reply
64. Lucretius says:

    05/25/2018 at 1:18 pm

    My problem is really concentrated on trying to work around rejection and dealing with it (ie bottom guy frame) rather than knowing girls like me (this is fact from all the text discussions and interactions) and being reactive moment to moment to the interaction.

    There is this girl in the office (very sexual and flaunts it) and she has been flirting with me over the past few months trying to initiate interactions with me (same pattern as other girls). At times I interact with her (tease) and other times I ignore her and she keeps coming back.

    I have also noticed other guys are interested in her and I see the same patterns in these guys doing things like “you went to the dentist. Did he hurt you?” so here I already know what is going on – every guy is bending to her every need.

    I went past her desk and said “hey, what’s up?”. She looked a little at me with ‘deer in headlight eyes’ (she may have been processing me speaking with her). I said “what are you doing?” but in my mind I had already prepared to say “it’s boring, let’s get a coffee”. She said that she was doing blah blah and asked me if I was asking for a coffee. My mind was on auto play and said “blah blah boring, let’s get a coffee”. She said that she can’t now but late afternoon she can. I then noticed my issue of just blurting let’s get a coffee earlier but thankfully I noticed her compliance and she said sure finish up and let me know (ie come get me). She said she come get me at my desk.

    It is really that I AM THINKING Of EVERYTHING IN MY HEAD AND THINKING TOO FAR AHEAD!

    Please keep the smack down coming

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/25/2018 at 1:22 pm

      Typo on last item.
      I said “sure finish up and let me know” not her

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/25/2018 at 1:33 pm

      Cool – another tip, don’t fuck in the office :-)

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/25/2018 at 4:22 pm

        My instinct tells me the same.

        Had the coffee and was general chit chat (topics naturally jumped but she started it on work) while I teased her from time to time (she was giggling all along). I was focused on teasing her – I wasnt doing anything special. She was going on about work stuff and I was switching off. Eventually she saw this and she changed the topic to non work and discussion progressed from there. I wasnt thinking that far ahead on purpose and was “reacting” to her points while injecting my own. Throughout the discussion she wanted to qualify herself to me (ie. so what is it that you like?) on various topics. The topic went to gym and I briefly mentioned about a girl I was seeing a while back and how she was ‘a gym addict’ and had legs and ass that I could bounce a quarter off (all true). She was then asking me for gym exercises on this. On the topics I was keeping it at the hahahaha places instead of trying to move it somewhere else.

        When I felt the vibe was good (she giggling and hahaha for a while already), I said: when are we getting that drink? (Was reference to her asking me 2 months back). She said enthusiastically yes we can and that it can be next week and she gave me two slots (Tuesday or friday, I picked the earlier one). She asked if we should invite other work people and I said ‘hmmm, more fun if it is just you and me’. She agreed without issue. My bottom guy instinct was to then say “take my number and text me” but I fought that off and said nothing. She was blah blah on something else and I said, let’s go back (ie. coffee over).

        On the way back to the desks, there are multiple paths with offices and I said let’s go this way and she said bye with a smile on her face but the paths joined up again and I teased her that she was following me – she giggled. As the paths split again she was still giggling and then she gently slapped my arm and we went separate ways.

        What this whole experience tells me is that the FRAME aspect is REAL. Top guy vs bottom guy is DEFINITELY REAL and this experience validates it for me and also not thinking ahead and just being in the moment reacting and moving the discussion along (leading topics and direction if I don’t like were it is at).

        On this girl, I won’t take it past the drink and the drink would be more teasing and rubbing arousal practice while monitoring internal frame. If I sense that it is like really there in the moment (to fuck), I cut it short and say it is time to go.

        Girls are everywhere and I don’t need problems at the office.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/25/2018 at 6:45 pm

          “On this girl, I won’t take it past the drink”

          Haha, you’re already balls deep in

          Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/26/2018 at 2:19 am

          Girls are everywhere and I don’t need problems at the office.

          Please read this line again.

          And again.

          You are flirting with the office (attention) whore who is massively DTF.

          There are main two outcomes:for your expressed plan of action (you tease her and then drop her in the middle of or after the drinks date)

          She starts hating you for rejecting her and makes your life hell. Girls are really not used to rejection from men.

          OR

          She develops a major crush on you and becomes a stalker. This will also make your life hell.

          You are risking everything, including a sexual harassment suit, dismissal and possibly the end of your career in this industry,

          All this so you can practice teasing and rubbing arousal while monitoring internal frame.

          THIS
          IS
          INSANE.

          This is creepy, extremely destructive, bottom guy behaviour.

          If you feel you need to talk to a therapist specialized in men’s issues, there are several people I can recommend.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/26/2018 at 7:15 am

            Yeah – Luc should go out every day and flirt with every woman he finds attractive and monitor his internal frame.

            Leading an office whore into sex is a ticking bomb and it’s not for newbies.

            Every girl out there will destroy you if you let her. Chances of Luc being able to manage her are zero since he’s doing it ‘for practice’.

            Luc go out to places where there’s no risk involved and making mistakes is cheap and without consequences. That’s not your job environment where she can decide ‘you’re a creep’ and start plotting your demise after she does fuck your boss and talks him into firing you. Or after you do fuck her and she decides she’ll accuse you of sexual molestation.

            You need the pulse of a titan to handle women.

            Practice somewhere else.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/26/2018 at 7:16 am

              Pinging Rivelino – can you imagine if Skinny Girl was in your work environment?

              Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/26/2018 at 8:03 am

              @Flat Lander & Yohami
              Point is made. I will put off the drinks and let things die down from there.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/26/2018 at 8:06 am

                And do go out a lot more and practice

              • Lucretius says:

                05/26/2018 at 10:46 am

                The going out a lot more is definitely something I need todo. Need to look at practically every Fri + Sat night to bars (unarranged events) where the dress is jeans + tshirt.

                It was harsher in this environment and it is here that I need to find my feet.

                The patterns are there from the girls in how they are reacting to me (interest vs no-interest. I want to distill why I get good reactions in some cases and meh in other cases. Rapport is certainly one of the aspects contributing to ‘meh’ reaction as I saw in the past.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/26/2018 at 6:35 pm

                Lucretius,

                So you have 2 bars, in one it’s easier, in the other it’s harsher. In which of the two should you spend more time in?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/26/2018 at 7:13 pm

                Both but if forced to pick one, I take the harsher one.

                The harsher one is less forgiving and I need to focus more on my projected vibe and verbals. I will also have stronger competition there and am more likely to find cool guys there. I would be forced to be at a higher level here.

                The easier one has a different feel because it is arranged and all attendees feel like they are at a ‘common party’ where they are looking for sex. The issue is that eventually quality of girls start to drop over time and same with the guys.

                The harsher one are individual groups of people going out for sex. The feel I got there was visceral and it forced me to really look around me and inside me and having to raise myself to work at this level.

                If I start to get success only at the easier venue, it will validate everything happening only at the easier venue. I will also become reliant to an organised event rather than just going out to a random bar.

65. Lucretius says:

    05/26/2018 at 10:20 am

    Went out last night to the drinks and fortunately the flower girl was not there – A sigh of relief.

    The crowd was so so but there were some nice girls to talk to. I did as planned in that I was mingling around (did not speak with guys only group as before).
    I got positive reactions from all the girls of the groups on opening (body language is naturally in order).

    I was focused on not going into rapport but it did slip some times as girls where asking the same thing over and over and over. I did pick up on my behaviour on this and was adjusting as the night went on.

    Not to go into details of every interaction, there were a few things that did stand out for me:
    1) Some of the groups were just girls
    2) Some of the groups were mostly girls + a guy

    Of the first type, there two really nice girls talking to each other. From speaking with them, one was the alpha (talkative + expressive) and the other the beta (quiet + agreeing).
    I interacted with both of them as it was a group but eventually I got tired of the alpha girl constant theatrics. I understand it was her filtering mechanism and it just wore me down and I made my exit (I didnt see a reason to continue there if it was not feeling good for me).

    Of the second type, it was one of the notable interactions that I did have. After introducing myself, everyone stopped what they were saying and then started looking at me and this caused me to mention it. One of the girls said that they were talking about life and the discussion went from there. After a few words on this, it started again on the rapport questions from the girls (where you from? what you do? how long you here?). For this particular interaction, I was conscious of not ‘providing facts’ and was improvising on the questions. If they were asking where I was from, I would say [Country X] from which I could not be and then when they say another country, and then the ‘secret agent’ line from yohami. This got some giggles from the girls and also the guy. Similarly with ‘what do you do?’ question where I gave a silly answer like ‘salad specialist’ where I had to apply a secret formula for determining how much lettuce, tomato, chicken, mayo and other ingredients for the food you buy at the supermarket to keep customers happy. I was talking this answer up (there was a bit more blah blah behind this) and answering all their questions with a serious face like it was my real work. As I was telling this, I could see the girls smile (and stay smiling) as I was just not being the ‘beta bore’ that they were use to. In general, every rapport question I answered in the above way – some of the girls get it immediately that it cannot be true. When they ask “really?”, I say “no ;-)”. Others go further and further down the story line until eventually I feel the joke being stretched and change topic. The girl I liked in the group (forgot her name) was smiling and her smile became ‘glued to her face’ while I was talking. As I was driving the interaction, I decided to pause for a little bit to see if someone else would inject some other points to work with. Not much was coming from it and with the energy coming down, I excused myself and went to mingle with other people (as recommended by Yohami). When I was trying to come back to find this girl, the group was already gone.

    Similarly to the second group, there was another noteable interaction which I followed the same pattern. When they would ask me what do I do, I would say a story of whatever came to my mind at that moment but similarly along the silly lines of the above with extra improv. If I would say ‘maybe’ or ‘guess’, they would add more of their own ideas into the mix and I was improv on it (ie. yes, and …). Eventually the story kept getting taller and taller. Every time the girls would giggle more and more. When the story could not get any taller, they would try again to squeeze the facts from me for which I was able to redirect the conversation to something else and someone else and we moved from there. Eventually the rapport questions stopped but by now there were already so many ‘world constructs / topics’ injected into the conversation that roleplaying became easy (Including if me and the girl I liked were dating, she would need to cook me good dinner (it was a small step but also turned into a ramp). The one guy was trying to be “I on your side girl and agree with everything you say”. This was when we talking about arguments and how girls and guys approach arguments differently. The guy was saying that I should just give in and let the girls win because life would be easier. I was moving along the lines of the opposite (ie. breaking rapport) and that if we were arguing (still in the roleplay dating frame) how it would affect the dinner she would prepare for me? Would it be the same or lower quality or maybe even kill me? She pushed for it could kill me if I argue with her (smile). I retorted with “well, then we are going to have [her good friend standing next to her] over for dinner regularly and she is going to be my taste tester who will check everything for me”. Both her and the friend cracked up laughing and the girl said that she couldnt cook badly for me in that case. The discussions were really around this type of thing focused on taking whatever initial material there was and making a larger and larger story where I was involving the girl with me while using everyone else as material. It reached the same point where the girl I liked was smiling and same as before ‘her smile stuck to her face’ as I was talking. At this point, it felt like I was at a point to tell her to come with me but given the group was still there I couldnt not ask in front of everyone (would feel weird) and I couldnt separate her to continue from this point (perhaps here there was an element where I was thinking of rejection and trying to manage this. The girl in group vs girl by herself works differently to my knowledge). Was looking for opportunity for 5min but nothing came of it and then her other friends came in, the group divided and then everyone split. I can still contact her online and am thinking of sending ‘Hey ;-)’. Some thought required for a nickname. See if something comes of it.

    The crowd was thinning out and I decided to head out and found another bar on the way back where there was a completely different crowd (very dressed down). I stepped inside (my suit wasnt general outfit as it was jeans + tshirt at this bar). This place had completely different vibe from the earlier one and it was really like ‘the jungle’ and I could see girl + guys interacting in their own groups. Interacting here was a totally different experience. people were “friendly” but the feedback was quicker and harsher (likely because of my contrasted appearance but also vibe – I felt out of place because of how I was dressed). I just was out of place here because of what the girls in the crowd were looking for (ie. more bad boy) and I was just not projecting any of that while in a suit.

    The same thing happened with rapport questions (where you from? what do you do? how long you been here?). As I was having good fun with the girls from earlier in the evening by talking up the stories, I was doing the same here. It was a mixed response as each girl (alpha / beta) was looking for something specific. I recall one interaction where I was speaking with a girl and she was following the same question outline and I said that it felt like I was “applying for a position. Please tell me all the questions now such that I can prepare my answers for this interview.” She listed only those three and then I said “well you need to ask me how I like my breakfast too”. She said, “you like sunny side up right? At least I hope so.” I said “yes I do”. The discussion didnt go much further than a few more sentences due to girl coming and talking with her. It was also getting late and I was already tired.

    At same time, I get text from girl I know wanting me to come over to her place – I did and that it how the night ended.

    The main things that I am seeing in the experience last night are:
    – Rapport pattern from girls is the same no matter the place or type of crowd
    – Rapport becomes nothing more than social niceties in the context of sexual courtship. It really goes nowhere but is some good fodder for starting up a ‘fun discussion’ that can lead to teasing in groups.
    – Improv is really beneficial in the above context of being able to continuously build the ‘world of the interaction’ between the guy and girl (and in groups)
    – Everything is really going to be decided in the first 10-40 seconds of the interaction. A failure there, means going nowhere for everywhere else
    – Vibe (affects body language) matters a lot as this determines how the girls react to the guy

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/26/2018 at 6:36 pm

      Sounds like you’re making a huge improvement

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/27/2018 at 7:39 am

        It reached the same point where the girl I liked was smiling and same as before ‘her smile stuck to her face’ as I was talking. At this point, it felt like I was at a point to tell her to come with me but given the group was still there I couldnt not ask in front of everyone (would feel weird) and I couldnt separate her to continue from this point (perhaps here there was an element where I was thinking of rejection and trying to manage this. The girl in group vs girl by herself works differently to my knowledge). Was looking for opportunity for 5min but nothing came of it and then her other friends came in, the group divided and then everyone split.

        Any notes on this? Would like to make sure I am seeing things right and also moving in the right direction of asking the girl to come with me when she is separated from the group.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/27/2018 at 11:14 am

          Me: (to the group, looking at her) so what are you guys doing next? this bar closes early
          Group: blah blah
          Me: (to her, handing my phone): I’ll send you a text later to hang out more
          Her: (happy girl)

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/27/2018 at 1:01 pm

            Somehow the simplicity of these things eludes me :-/

            Also on preventing frame clash – I just need to say “we will see” and then move forward.

            Reply
          • iamaflirt says:

            05/27/2018 at 2:04 pm

            Why text and not call?

            Reply
66. BlueValentine says:

    05/26/2018 at 3:12 pm

    Yohami, again, I am grateful to all your advice to me and everyone here, you’re like the guide or man role model many of us grew up without.

    I had a few questions that are burning at me. In essence, they come down to this question:

    How fast does a girl see you and treat you as Top Guy?

    What I mean is, if she sees you as Top Guy from the very beginning, then we expect her to chase from the very beginning, correct? Then why would she ping bottom guy, to test you again and again and again?

    The ramification is: when do we let a girl go because she’s not chasing nor seeing Top Guy?

    I’ll relate this to texting: A girl is all happy and giggly, and gives her phone number. I send a text, she doesn’t answer. Do I let her go then and there? Or swing my dick?

    You wrote about when to let girls go: When they set up a wall with no opening, when you ask for a date and they don’t answer, and when you flirt and they don’t respond.

    I guess specific manifestations of this that aren’t really clear to me: I text a girl a tease. She doesn’t answer. I text a photo the next day, she answers. Then disappears again.

    Or a girl says: I am only looking for friendship. Or I have a boyfriend, I don’t want to lie to him.

    These are walls, where is the opening? There is no opening, so normally I should let them go, or just stay in touch and the more Top Guy they potentially see, the more they’ll change their minds?

    Deep down, the question is: How much should I invest when a girl is not reciprocating before it makes me a bottom guy?

    Should I “barely invest” compared to the girl, and if she stops investing, I never had her in the first place?

    I guess my frame is this: that I should show and build the perception of value I have in the girl’s mind before I let her chase. But then, a Top Guy would assume value.

    So how much do we invest in new girls over text? If I send the first text, and she doesn’t answer, do I keep sending a text once a week, or do I let her go directly?

    Or a girl that goes silent, do I keep in touch once a week, or forget her and go find another girl?

    Really, should I ONLY focus on girls who are “enthusiastic” about texting and meeting me, the Yes girls? Or is it possible for a girl who is putting walls that I show her Top Guy over time then she will become an enthusiastic girl too?

    The problem is if you invest in a girl putting walls you’re basically signaling Bottom Guy.

    So are the girls we get the girls who are chasing already from the start, and we let the other girls who don’t seem to be that interested in texting or flirting go?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/26/2018 at 6:58 pm

      Answers

      How fast does a girl see you and treat you as Top Guy?

      She has a first impression, then a second impression, then a third etc. It’s an ongoing process. With each impressions she’ll adjust how she feels towards you and that dictates how she treates you.

      What I mean is, if she sees you as Top Guy from the very beginning, then we expect her to chase from the very beginning, correct? Then why would she ping bottom guy, to test you again and again and again?

      The girls will offer games designed to filter bottom and top men. Even when she’s the most aroused there’s a game going on – or, there’s ALWAYS something you can do that will be bottom guy and kill the attraction and it’s like she never met you. And there’s nothing you can or should do about it: it’s female nature. To test again and again and again and again is what they do. Your position is not permanent. They engage with the position you have on the tribe. When you lose that position they will detect it and move on – even if you’re Dicaprio.

      The ramification is: when do we let a girl go because she’s not chasing nor seeing Top Guy?

      After you say hi.

      I’ll relate this to texting: A girl is all happy and giggly, and gives her phone number. I send a text, she doesn’t answer. Do I let her go then and there? Or swing my dick?

      Depends. Did you send a bottom frame guy text? did you say “I like parks an ice cream but not chocolate”. There’s a reason she doesn’t respond, what did you say? and when she was giggly: was she aroused? did you turn her on?

      You wrote about when to let girls go: When they set up a wall with no opening, when you ask for a date and they don’t answer, and when you flirt and they don’t respond.

      Yep. Whenever you make a move and it’s her turn to move, you let her go there.

      I guess specific manifestations of this that aren’t really clear to me: I text a girl a tease. She doesn’t answer. I text a photo the next day, she answers. Then disappears again.

      That’s you chasing. What do you think are your chances of banging a girl like this?

      Or a girl says: I am only looking for friendship. Or I have a boyfriend, I don’t want to lie to him.

      That’s a wall and their meanings vary with context. These are very specific and sort of weird objections – why are girls telling you they are only looking for friendship? did you offer any friendship to begin with? the objection that they don’t want to lie to the boyfriend is very specific and weird as well.

      These are walls, where is the opening? There is no opening, so normally I should let them go, or just stay in touch and the more Top Guy they potentially see, the more they’ll change their minds?

      These are walls and what you have to pay attention to is WHY they are seeing you as bottom guy. Insisting on pushing against their rejection will lead you nowhere.

      Deep down, the question is: How much should I invest when a girl is not reciprocating before it makes me a bottom guy?

      Zero.

      First, becausef framing and principles. But also because of practicality.

      When a girl sets a wall she’s communicating she doesn’t find you attractive. If you act like a bottom guy in response, that makes you effectively unattractive which makes that wall even stronger. So the more you push against rejection the more unattractive you become.

      There’s an exception for this when she’s giving you token resistance because she likes the friction. It looks like this: you’re fingering her and she’s got her hand on your dick and you’re making out and she’s like “oh no we shouldn’t do this”. Unless you’re facing that scenario, the wall is real. The examples you gave are real walls. You’re being rejected: it’s not a game that you’ll win.

      Should I “barely invest” compared to the girl, and if she stops investing, I never had her in the first place?

      Zero.

      I guess my frame is this: that I should show and build the perception of value I have in the girl’s mind before I let her chase. But then, a Top Guy would assume value.

      “show and build the perception of value” is bottom frame trying to appear of more value than he is.

      Question for you: are you the real deal? or are you an impostor?

      So how much do we invest in new girls over text? If I send the first text, and she doesn’t answer, do I keep sending a text once a week, or do I let her go directly?

      If she doesn’t answer, ping her after a while, if she doesn’t answer that ping she’s gone.

      But WHY is she not answering? Look closely: What does she want? what kind of guy would she be texting back to?

      Or a girl that goes silent, do I keep in touch once a week, or forget her and go find another girl?

      There’s zero chance you’ll fuck any of the silent girls.

      So you’re asking “how much should I be texting girls I will never fuck”

      Zero.

      Really, should I ONLY focus on girls who are “enthusiastic” about texting and meeting me, the Yes girls? Or is it possible for a girl who is putting walls that I show her Top Guy over time then she will become an enthusiastic girl too?

      Yes. You should only focus on the yes girls.

      And you should focus on the maybe girls as long as they switch to yes girls. Then you keep them as yes girls and interact with them only when they are a YES.

      “I show her Top Guy” are you doing so? top guy doesn’t chase silent girls, so how do you show the silent girls you’re top?

      The problem is if you invest in a girl putting walls you’re basically signaling Bottom Guy.

      Yes.

      So are the girls we get the girls who are chasing already from the start, and we let the other girls who don’t seem to be that interested in texting or flirting go?

      Yes.

      Now the kicker is this. The % of girls who would be enthusiastically texting and wanting to meet you should at least be 70% of every girl you ever talk to.

      And the remaining 30% should only be a short session of tease and banter away from also being DFT.

      If most girls you talk to don’t want to bang with you, then you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re not reading them and you don’t know what they want. So that’s where your focus should be.

      The question is not “should I chase silent girls” but “why do the girls go silent” which is your failure to “listen to what these girls want and deliver it” which always, always is a little different flavor of Top Guy.

      Always.

      Reply
67. Flat Lander says:

    05/26/2018 at 8:04 pm

    Yohami: So you have 2 bars, in one it’s easier, in the other it’s harsher. In which of the two should you spend “more time in?”

    My primary objective is to get laid with cute girls though good game.

    I’d pick the easier environment, as the results will come quicker (better return on investment).

    Once I have mastered the easier mode, I would look for other challenges if the outcome is better, i.e. hotter girls.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/26/2018 at 8:41 pm

      Yup. Replying to Lucretius here

      My question was a trap to show you the bottom frame you’re carrying around. Replace the “two bars” with two girls, one is DTF and the other is playing hard to get. Or replace both places with an ‘opening’ and a ‘wall’. Where should you focus, the opening, or the wall?

      What better case to illustrate how much bottom frame is obsessed with rejection

      Both but if forced to pick one, I take the harsher one.

      Wrong answer: pick the easier one.

      Pick the girl who is DTF.

      Give your attention to the YES.

      This goes to the core of the issue. The version of you that you have to become, is, again, one that gives zero shits about the girls that are not into you and won’t be chasing them around, and is only available for the girls when they are in compliance mode.

      When that’s ‘who you are’, then girls will automatically start flipping themselves into compliance around you, in part because that’s the game you offer, and in part because that quality is in itself attractive, because it comes from ‘top frame’.

      Also what you need to do, and I illustrated that earlier, is ‘repeat repeat repeat’ being the top guy who is at ease winning and in abundance. To be able to repeat that framing again and again yyou must live it, you have to put yourself in situations where that’s a given, which is why I advice every newbie to go and put themselves in a situational alpha slot somewhere, a hobbie or a job or whatever. You have to experience being the in-demand guy who calls the shots and expects to win. So you have to go for the win.

      Once you have that ingrained – when you go to a place that is ‘harsh’ then it will be much easier to turn that into a favorable environment, because you already know what a favorable environment looks like.

      This is also why I advocate against daygame for newbies. You have no compass there. Pick something easy. Or if you’re going to go into the jungle, take a mentor with you.

      The harsher one is less forgiving and I need to focus more on my projected vibe and verbals. I will also have stronger competition there and am more likely to find cool guys there. I would be forced to be at a higher level here.

      The easier one has a different feel because it is arranged and all attendees feel like they are at a ‘common party’ where they are looking for sex. The issue is that eventually quality of girls start to drop over time and same with the guys.

      Are you able to pick any of these girls and take them home? can you talk to the hottest girl and bang her? if not, that ‘easier scene’ is still above your skill level. Are you the owner and master and top guy of that easier environment?

      The harsher one are individual groups of people going out for sex. The feel I got there was visceral and it forced me to really look around me and inside me and having to raise myself to work at this level.

      Top guy frame would be the opposite of being forced into anything. Guess who’s forced into things.

      If I start to get success only at the easier venue, it will validate everything happening only at the easier venue. I will also become reliant to an organized event rather than just going out to a random bar.

      So you’re ‘afraid of getting complacent with success’ even though you’re not having it, and don’t see that going to the harder scenario has the risk of making you complacent with failure.

      What you repeat is what you become. Getting complacent with success is magnitudes better than failing. Specially if you’re incorporating skills, and the skills you get from success can expand you and give you more dominance, which will make everything else easier.

      You need to repeat having success until you know the dance back and forth and can drawn your map of what success looks like. Then when you go to a new venue you have a ‘success’ to offer. The lack of your own map for success is why the other scene looks harsher.

      The other environment isn’t harsher per se.

      Keep going there and pay attention to the kind of guys that get laid. Or, do get pinging the hot girls with walls who is a maybe, but do so while you bang all the YES girls.

      And if forced to choose, pick the YES.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/26/2018 at 9:43 pm

        I see your perspective – need to take some time to digest it.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/26/2018 at 9:52 pm

          When you have two girls, one who is DTF and the other is playing hard to get – bang the DTF girl. The ‘hard to get’ girl will see you in action and lower her barriers to let you in in response, or, having success makes you more attractive so you get less walls.

          This is the whole “go for the opening, ignore the wall” thing. Applied to environments, or battles, pick the ones you’ll win.

          You’ll learn more winning easy battles than you’ll learn from losing harder battles.

          You learn by winning, because you’re acquiring the winner traits in the process, as opposed to the loser traits.

          Or – go to the gym and start easy and then add more weights.

          Any situation where you lose and you don’t know exactly what happened has no value for you. Same for winning.

          Start winning now.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/26/2018 at 10:22 pm

            Everything you have said, I understand and it makes sense.

            When I was answering the question, I was thinking in terms of environments and not girls being DTF / not DTF.

            But as I was typing my response and talking about environments, something felt off and that it why I just left it at ‘time to digest’. If I try to expand on it now, I felt different in the ‘harsher environment’ because it was unorganized and the competition was much stronger. It felt like I needed to be in that environment more such that I can feel at ease being around such competition. I know I cannot run away from strong competition and dont want to.

            The other guys are only competition because of the context of sex being gotten at the bar. If I was just there to socialize, I would not of felt that way and just talked to guys and girls (rapport).

            Is it competition anxiety? Is it bottom guy in some form? It is not clear to me. The reflex was for me to go back and stay in that uncomfortable environment longer until I can ‘feel calm’ in it and work from there. I was not thinking about girls being harder or easier.

            Winning leads to more winning (ie. pussy leads to more pussy).
            Losing leads to more losing (ie. no pussy leads to no pussy).

            I know the above first hand in many aspects of life. It was the way the question was posed and how my response to your analysis was coming out that caused me to feel something wrong inside. Right now something is still unsettled.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/26/2018 at 10:33 pm

              It was a trap :-)

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/27/2018 at 9:25 am

                Thinking about this, I dont have a “loser mindset” where I think that this is outside my reach nor do I put my situation to something else outside of me.

                What I do see in myself is that I am very ‘problem solving focused’ in multiple areas of my life. It may be this that is causing me to behave and respond to text chats in the way I am – this may be something you can see as me “trying to escalate / interact with walls”.

                One line from your previous post stood out:
                Any situation where you lose and you don’t know exactly what happened has no value for you. Same for winning.

                The issue for me is that I did not understand what I was doing that was making me win in the past (ie. girls gaming me down to initiating sex with me) and to a degree now, it is not entirely clear. Me trying to be in control of the process now (ie. me leading girl to sex) is kind of a problem solving for me as I am trying to figure out what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong – hence all the posts (even if I look like a fumbling idiot in the process).

                Your message is clear. If you win, you project winner therefore more likely to continue wining because girls see winner. Inverse also applies (operant conditioning).

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/27/2018 at 11:12 am

                “Your message is clear. If you win, you project winner ”

                Yep – but it’s more than just a projection

68. Lucretius says:

    05/27/2018 at 1:28 pm

    Just came back from improv workshop. Was not what I was expecting. Thinking about it, I didnt go into it with much expectations but the beginning part felt like I was at a new age health retreat doing all manner of stretching exercises.

    The content was really good. Did a few exercises on concentration while being distracted and also ‘building on words’ (one person says one thing and another says the next related word that comes to mind for the first person to again say the next related word, etc). The improv scenes were good and there was just a short description and we had to build the story over 2 min with nothing but that. In short, I can see how improv would help with game. It would allow me to build “taller stories” than the ones I have been currently building as everything is based on “stacking forward”. I signed up for a 2 month course (2 hours per week).

    Relating back to girls, I was early there as it was my first time and sat down in a cafe waiting for others to arrive. Some other people came in for same workshop and they sat down in the same area. The same rapport question was coming from guy that was there for the course (also learning). Where you from? I played the game “take a guess”, him and someone else were not doing well but a girl (<24y) sitting at the next table just started to join shouting answers from her table. I gave a few more hints and this girl got it. I then said “If we are on a gameshow, I want her on my team”. The wording should of been changed to be “If we are on a gameshow, you are on my team” and be speaking with her. I took her jumping in as a sign of interest but did nothing as workshop was starting in 5min and other workshop students (all guys) were coming in.

    On finishing the workshop, we were all back in the cafe (cafe is in a building complex where the improv is held). Another girl (quite cute) gave a small smile at me as she looked away. I did nothing here as I wasnt feeling it in the moment. The reason for this smile must of been dominance (confidence) over others around me from the workshop while we were outside the workshop. This is again really showing, that the frame of confidence and calm around other (part of top guy) is getting me flashes of interest. I was dressed differently (jeans + t shirt) and this is also showing me what type of guy the girls are showing interest in (suit vs jeans).

    Reply
69. Lucretius says:

    05/28/2018 at 3:51 pm

    @yohami

    TEASE

    Give her / them something to prove, give her a role to play, or get herself out of. Cold reading falls into this, the difference is that the tease is an invitation to play, so when they play, you reward them

    You look like a [category]
    Do you [come here often]
    Are you [doing this or that]
    Are you [stuff, attribute, etc]
    Where are you from, or are you from [xxx]

    Looking at the above in more detail to get a stronger working understanding.

    You look like a [category]
    This has been explored a few times already (eg. you look like a hippie ;-) ) and I see it as a way to start the interaction but also by giving the girl a label, she would either go with it or say something else (eg. fake look). Everything then goes on her response.

    Do you [come here often]
    This one is not clear to me. If I am at a bar and I say “Do you come here often?”, there would be either a yes or no answer. Perhaps I may get a ‘sometimes’ but I dont see how it can continue further from here. Can you provide a working example of this?

    Are you [stuff, attribute, etc]
    Similarly to the one before, this is not clear to me on how it can lead further. Perhaps an example could help clarify?

    Where are you from, or are you from [xxx]
    This is understood based on the previous example where from her responses, I could either reward and then stack forward on it (eg. girls from there are blah blah) or I could go into further tease (ie. Oh terrible! Girls from there are trouble) and then stack on her response.

    Are there any other ‘tease starters’ that one could consider?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/29/2018 at 5:49 pm

      Having had a bit of time to think about the above, I try to answer my own questions:

      You look like a [category]
      This would act as a starter to any interaction and would be based on an observation of the girl. Considering a case scenario of being at a bar and a girl is dressed as a slut, the initial opening could go as:

      Me : Hey ;-)
      Her: Hi
      Me : You look like a nun
      Her: hahahahaha

      The above would work as the girl is putting on “slutty” clothing and trying to get attention from guys. If I was to give her the attention she is looking for (speaking to her) but commenting in a way that she would not be expecting (she expect = you look hot; but I say=you need to dress sluttier), the hahahaha will be there. Later throughout the interaction if other friends of her or mine join, then the ‘nun’ angle can be used and it becomes a box that she is in for her to get out of.

      Do you [come here often]
      There can be either a yes or no answer (sometimes is also a yes). This is effectively a ramp question into the next part. If the answer is yes, then the ‘stack’ would have to be a tease in the direction of her coming to the same bar often, similarly for a no. I cant think of something (example) that would come out well, but the feeling of ramp is there.

      Are you [doing this or that]
      This is also a yes / no question and is also as a ramp. If she says Yes (and is a thing I like), then I can reward and then stack forward with something else and tease. Same goes for no. Also cannot think of example where I can show this.

      Are you [stuff, attribute, etc]
      Same here again with being a yes/no and is also a ramp. It looks like a variant of the previous item.

      Where are you from, or are you from [xxx]
      This example was provided by Yohami ealier and I build on top of it tease

      Me : Hey
      Girls : Hi
      Me : We’re are you guys from
      Girls : UK
      Me : Wow! UK that’s awesome (reward)
      Me : And you have come to Oktoberfest to serve me beer ;-) (tease)

      Thinking more about the above, there would be an infinite amount of ways to open and tease. If I try to formulate it, it would be around anything but where the focus is always either me or the girl(s). Anything that is around (3rd thing) is just fodder for connecting me and the girl into tease + roleplay.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/29/2018 at 8:50 pm

        Some thoughts

        Me : Hey ;-)

        That’s a valid opener and a flirt – but don’t put the ‘you look like a [category]’ after it. The tease works best if you don’t ramp into it

        The effectiveness from the tease is that it’s blunt and direct. “you look like a traveler” replaces the ‘hi’, it doesn’t ask for permission
        ‘re
        Me : You look like a nun
        Her: hahahahaha

        “you look like a nun” is a particularly bad tease, if you get a ‘hahahaha’ she’s completely DTF and reacting to the fact that you are talking to her and not your words. Here’s why it’s bad

        “nun” is you being creative, not teasing her with something real. Nun also means you’re calling her a slut and somewhat negging her, and giving her a role to play. But she can’t play the role of a nun, and you don’t WANT her to play as a nun. If the girl is dressed all sexy and stuff, flirt with her and get her to channel her ‘sweetheart’ channel. Example:

        Me: You look sweet

        There Im giving her a specific role to play with me. She can play along or contest that, either way is a win.

        Do you [come here often]
        There can be either a yes or no answer (sometimes is also a yes). This is effectively a ramp question into the next part.

        Yes, questions like that are done just to break rapport. You ask something short and non-important, her yes or no will be compliance, and then you take that somewhere else.

        Me: Do you come here often?
        Her: Yes / No
        Me: Help me pick a drink. How is the sex on the beach?

        See how her response doesn’t matter

        Are you [doing this or that]

        This is closer to the are you [category] thing, also can be used just for compliance like above

        Me: Are you going in that direction?
        Her: yes / no why?
        Me: My friend’s got a crush on you and blah blah blah but he’s too shy so I have to check you up for him

        Me : Hey
        Girls : Hi
        Me : We’re are you guys from
        Girls : UK
        Me : Wow! UK that’s awesome (reward)

        That’s decent. It’s better if you skip the ‘hey’ before the tease

        Me; Hey ;-) where are you guys from?

        Like this – no pause before the tease, you’re not waiting for them to react, the tease is the opener. You can ramp it with eye contact and a flirty hey and tone but there’s no pause for them to reciprocate before you tease. The tease is the opener, it’s the frame for the game that follows

        Me : And you have come to Oktoberfest to serve me beer ;-) (tease)

        That’s a roleplay. It works if you actually make them serve you beer, I’d save that for later in the interaction.

        After you reward them with the ‘I love UK that’s awesome’ they’ll likely laugh with their asses an want more buttkissing, so give them some.

        Girls: hahaha
        Me: I love girls from UK. So what are you guys doing here
        Girls: blah blah blah (they will tell you exactly how to bang them)
        Me: Wait I need something to drink, let’s get a beer
        Me: See you came all the way down to Germany just to b

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/29/2018 at 8:50 pm

          Me: See you came all the way down to Germany just to be my waitress
          Girls: Hahaha
          Me: Be nice and you’ll get a tip

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/29/2018 at 9:07 pm

            Thank you for your thoughts.

            The more I read your proposed responses, the more I see a style that I know as “smart ass”. FlatLander was referring to Hans Solo as asshole but to me it is “smart ass”.

            For me to develop this style of talk, I need to watch specific actors in movies as to how they talk. I am sure there would also be youtube videos of similar talk styles. Then practice practice even in normal social situations until I become of that style.

            On separate note, it has been posting for a whole 5 weeks already (daily) and my brain is a little fried at the moment. Need a 2 week break just to let it set in and recover.

            Thank you for taking the time to provide your analysis and providing suggestions – THEY REALLY HELP ME UNDERSTAND!

            I am also going through the complete blog and transcribing relevant parts from your interactions with other people into a word document for easier reference (else I forget and then cannot find what I am looking for).

            On the polish, I dont think is dead as she was checking out my profile again (likely from the last message: “No problem. Text me when you lonely”), but no movement.

            On the bulgarian, havent heard anything and at this point, I would not mind it going over another week (I may be required to travel this weekend for the office).

            If something on either comes up, I will post comment on this page for everyone interested to track.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/29/2018 at 10:00 pm

              Cool, no problem. If you do transcribe the comments here, please send me a copy, i’d help me when writing the book

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/29/2018 at 10:16 pm

                It is a work for self reference (mostly copy + paste) but having it all in relevant and grouped sections (ie. everything on top guy vs bottom guy, multiple text chat break downs, sexual courtship process, etc).

                My feeling is that if I can collate everything and also make some notes on it, I keep refining everything in my head making it more solid. And then practice and check back if I am doing it right until it becomes second nature.

                I am happy to share (google drive or something) once i got everything

70. Lucretius says:

    05/30/2018 at 7:23 am

    Here is another one.

    From the previous week I sent a number of girls I saw online a similar message where they were in a holiday and they were smiling. This one came back (to my surprise) earlier today after a week. The text chat is at:

    Me : nice pic
    Me : you dont have any compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
    Her: What do you mean by this?

    What I do know is that if I start explaining what I mean, it goes the wrong way (at best will head to rapport) as I am falling into her frame of having to explain. Doubling down on this ‘neg’ does not seem right because there is no hahahaha or smilie. If I go silent, then it all likely ends here.

    I would see the neg as having touched something as she was curious enough to write back.

    Any suggested replies?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/30/2018 at 10:22 am

      When she doesn’t get the innuendo, remove any doubts and make it explicit

      Me: I mean I like your picture a lot

      Then I’d keep an eye on it. Is she someone who doesn’t get innuendo, or is she someone who gets personally irritated easily, is she dumb, or is there a language barrier, or is she hyper smart and overthinks everything? the answer to that is also the path to bang her

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/30/2018 at 10:25 am

        Btw this is the beauty of the dance – you used the same line in 4+ girls and got back 4+ completely different reactions, because ‘every girl is different’ and your mechanics will as well. This is why structured game or having memorized lines or stacking doesn’t work.

        What you need is a constant frame, and a toolbox of skills and then the ability to read the situation and know where to progress it (where is more important than how)

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/30/2018 at 4:26 pm

          This was expected that I would get different replies back – would of been strange if they all replied in the same way. It was one of the things I was looking for in how to progress based on what the girls says back (the reading the situation).

          When you say ‘where to progress it’, are you referring to ESCALATION and CALL_TO_ACTION?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/30/2018 at 5:54 pm

            where = SEX

            Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/30/2018 at 4:23 pm

        Sent as suggested – will post her reply if she sends something back.

        Exploring the girl personality more, how should the interaction progress based on the type of girl she is? Throwing some random ideas.

        If the girl is intelligent, would I be looking at talking intelligent things or would I be teasing her about being intelligent (eg. book worm)? Should I be ‘disqualifying’ myself as saying that I am dum dum at times (something Krauser mentioned)?

        If the girl is irritated easily, would I have to stay away from negs or just use ‘lesser negs’ to find and stomp on her boundaries?

        If the girl is not smart (ie. dum dum), how would I have to interact with her? Would I contrast and act that I am Mr. Smarty Pants or something of the sort?

        If I think about the Polish, she is posh girl thru and thru, so keeping this angle makes sense. I am not saying that I would take her to expensive restaurants or anything like that but the ‘successful guy’ is what she is looking for so everything I would have todo would have to have this ‘gravity’ to it (as I currently see it). It may be being ‘the leader of men’ (mystery) that would move her closer to me.

        This would be very different from the Bulgarian who is more dress down and a bit shy. She said she liked guys that are confident and do things (this came from the ‘get my money from polish’ task she did for me). With Bulgarian I have to always be moving things forward and generating the ideas (have you ever done …? Its awesome), the fun (lets go to …) and experience (making her feel emotions).

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/30/2018 at 5:01 pm

          Exploring the girl personality more, how should the interaction progress based on the type of girl she is? Throwing some random ideas.

          There are two things here:

          calibrating your game to find the quickest path to sex
          playing a role that she will accept (qualifying for her approval)

          Most of your random ideas consist in you looking for the role (dumb guy, smart guy, successful guy, confident guy)

          This is bottom guy frame. This is chasing.

          Once you generate attraction, she must become the one to chase and try to fit your expectations.

          Under the surface, all girls are the same: they look for confident men who lead and make them feel a range of emotions.

          The posh girl will fuck a caveman and the shy girl will fuck a taciturn artist if these men are dominant and congruent.

          Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/30/2018 at 5:29 pm

          (cont.)

          One thing that is missing from the discussion is an evaluation of your strengths.

          Given the number of girls who are initially DTF in your presence and then get cold once you start running game on them, I am starting to believe that you are very good looking in the eyes of EE girls.

          This is your strength.

          Running complex verbal game while being physically attractive is often counterproductive. You signal a lack of awareness of your strengths and of what these girls are attracted to.

          Her: (Oh my God, he’s so dreamy and so well dressed. I am getting wet! Please ask me out, please ask me out, please ask me out!!)
          You: (10 lines about your travels and your job and her wearing skin tight clothes)
          Her: (God, he’s boring! What a creep!)

          Your value is mainly communicated through looks and style. Elaborate verbal game gets in the way of that and becomes a wall of your own making.

          In the bar:

          You: Come here (with a smirk)
          Her: hahaha
          You: Who are you?
          Her: I’m CuteGirl hahaha
          You: I’m Lucretius. So what’s your story?
          Her: blablabla
          You: is that so?
          Her: blablabla
          You: cool, it reminds me of the time…(cool story, grounding)
          Her: hahaha

          You: Gotta run.Take my number,we’re gonna hang out later..

          Of course, if you are going for the hottest girls, you may have to work more to communicate your value, as they often have more options.

          In the case of merely cute girls, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/30/2018 at 6:17 pm

          Nope man.

          You’re positioning under the girl like you’re a pleaser and you’ll change to fit her. This is the bottom guy trying to do courtship as a service. She’s not your master.

          What you will find out while interacting with her is what AROUSES HER. So you finger her verbally and with kino until you understand what makes her sexually ready, you rub her there, she opens, and you have sex.

          But at all times you’re the same man. You don’t change your role.

          It’s top guy first, calibration second.

          First you have to be THE MAN. And you have to be consistent at all times.

          She will adapt to you.

          But you adapt to what she reacts to. After you lead.

          You ping, you initiate, you tease, you lead, you command.

          She reacts to that, which is the feedback for your input.

          Then you calibrate to her so you can lead her properly.

          ========================

          Again here you’re trying to come up with pre-planned moves, which is the antithesis of what you actually have to do.

          Stop this pre-planned nonsense. You need to be present in the moment and PAY ATTENTION TO HER.

          If the girl is intelligent, would I be looking at talking intelligent things

          No – you will be looking at what arouses her sexually. Talk to her vagina.

          or would I be teasing her about being intelligent (eg. book worm)?

          If that arouses sexually yes, but it’s unlikely

          Should I be ‘disqualifying’ myself as saying that I am dum dum at times (something Krauser mentioned)?

          That’s shit game.

          If the girl is irritated easily, would I have to stay away from negs or just use ‘lesser negs’ to find and stomp on her boundaries?

          If the girl gets irritated easily press next – not worth your time.

          That attitude alone might be enough to make her snap out of it.

          If the girl is not smart (ie. dum dum), how would I have to interact with her?

          The main different between smart and dumb people is that the smarts are smarts and the dumbs are dumb. So you can get deeper and do more subtle nuances and deeper critiques and sarcasm etc with smart people, while with simpler people you have to, well, be simpler.

          But we’re talking sexual courtship. The super smart girl will still fuck the dumb dominant alpha quarterback with a shit eating grind who has never read a book. And the super dumb girl will also fuck the Steve Jobs if he gives her a chance.

          This is not about you becoming someone else just so you can score the girls – it’s about what they respond to. And it’s not the ‘smarts’

          It’s the dominance.

          The smarts are only a plus when they increase your dominance.

          IWould I contrast and act that I am Mr. Smarty Pants or something of the sort?

          Nope, shit game. Talk to her vagina. What arouses her?

          If I think about the Polish, she is posh girl thru and thru, so keeping this angle makes sense. I am not saying that I would take her to expensive restaurants or anything like that but the ‘successful guy’ is what she is looking for so everything I would have todo would have to have this ‘gravity’ to it (as I currently see it). It may be being ‘the leader of men’ (mystery) that would move her closer to me.

          This is shit game. You’re looking at her as if there’s a gap that you must fill somehow = THAT’S BOTTOM GUY.

          Forget about the gap = focus on leading her sexually.

          Focus on putting your dick inside of her.

          She will fuck the drug dealer homeless guy if he arouses her.

          This would be very different from the Bulgarian who is more dress down and a bit shy.

          It’s not different: both will fuck the same guy

          She said she liked guys that are confident and do things

          Every girl likes the confident guy.

          With Bulgarian I have to always be moving things forward and generating the ideas (have you ever done …? Its awesome), the fun (lets go to …) and experience (making her feel emotions).

          You need to do the same with every girl.

          ===============

          The good part is that it looks as you’re paying attention.

          The switch for you now is to not look at these differences from an accommodating / rapport point of view, but looking them as opportunities for leadership.

          Focus on leading!

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/30/2018 at 7:41 pm

            Let me see if I understand it better:

            I am always the same guy, does not matter where I am or who the girl is.
            When interacting with a particular girl, I am paying attention to the girl to work out what type of girl she is (by what she is saying in her dress, way of interacting, what she likes / does not like [i dont mean rapport] as we interact, etc)

            In short, my aim is to get a sense of who she is as I am interacting with her. But as we are discussing there will be some things that she reacts more positively than others either via a facial expression or hahahah or smile or whatever else that comes positive from her. When I find this, I stay in this place (ie. double down) for a while and then continue to move the interaction forward (ie. leading) to other verbal / emotional places where she also responds. When it feels like the ‘energy’ with the girl is good, she is complying and having a good time, then I lead further onwards to sex.

            Considering the polish as a case study, I would need to move the interaction forward and as I know that she is posh girl, my tease + roleplay will be around the ‘posh girl things’ like teasing her about how she is going to afford all those expensive clothes (ie. get a GOOD job or marry rich husband), being an office girl that she is like the watercooler / coffee machine (from all the guys around her), etc. In the context of roleplay, it is around posh stuff including being married to me as a fashion designer where we are at my fashion show in Milano or something of the sort (… but I wont propose).

            Considering the bulgarian girl as alternate case study (she comes across as a shy girl that likes tropical holidays and nature), I am also moving the interaction forward and focusing on who she is and teasing her on this aspect. In the context on roleplay, it could be something of us going to a far away (me and her) to secluded island where the natives have had little contact with the outside world where I am making boats with the men and she is gathering food to make the dinner. Alternatively, the roleplay could be her and me going through the scary woods at night that is thought to be haunted. We go because we made a dare and there is a thrill in it.

            In both cases, the teases and the roleplay is both to generate the emotions in the girl and connecting the girl to me. In all cases, I am still the same guy (ie. I am not putting on a mask pretending to be posh and talking about fashion labels or about being a nature hippie like saying I love hugging trees).

            In both cases, is that I am tuning (calibrating) the teases + roleplays + everything else to the girl and ‘who she is’ such that it connects with her arousal spots.

            The emotional highs and absence of highs (generating want of highs) from the above is what will ‘bond’ her to me and allow me to lead her to sex with me.

            Does the above sound correct?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/30/2018 at 8:51 pm

              Still is full of bottom guy intoxication. The reason why I go back to the basics all the time, it’s because it’s really that simple.

              Your viewpoint even in this last post is that you must do some tricks to get her to bond or whatever and “allow you to have sex with her”

              BOTTOM GUY FRAME.

              The reason I say “look at her” is because you’re not doing it. Look at her – look at the girls, and ask yourself what do they want.

              What they want is to fuck the top guy.

              And they want to do so with ferocity.

              It’s not that they will ‘allow the top guy to fuck them’

              It’s that they will chase that guy down and rape him if it needs to be.

              Any approach to seduction where you’re building up to her it’s bottom frame and will get you nowhere – because that’s bottom guy dealing with rejection and obstacles and trying to put his penis through a wall.

              Don’t use game to try to get better at filling gaps and fucking through walls. Use game to wake the fuck up and see reality for what it is.

              Girls want the top guy. They want the sex. They want it all.

              What you have to do to fuck them is PING THAT EXISTING DESIRE.

              All the things I write about here is about how to ping that desire, interact with that desire, stimulate that desire, escalate on that desire.

              But the desire is already there – if they see what they want, which is always a little different variation of top guy, or, all of them have a little different puzzle that they will throw at you to evaluate if you have what it takes or not.

              It’s a very, very predictable dance.

              Has nothing to do with bonding.

              And it’s the antithesis of they ‘letting you fuck them’. That’s for losers.

              =====================================

              
              am always the same guy, does not matter where I am or who the girl is.

              Yes – this means you always need to be THE BOSS.

              When interacting with a particular girl, I am paying attention to the girl to work out what type of girl she is (by what she is saying in her dress, way of interacting, what she likes / does not like [i dont mean rapport] as we interact, etc)

              You pay attention to the openings she gives, the walls she gives, what her arousal spots are, you interact to stimulate her, all while you screen her to see if she’s worth your time.

              This is you screening her – not you trying to pass a test or jump through hoops.

              In short, my aim is to get a sense of who she is as I am interacting with her.

              Your aim is to find out if she’s worth your time, while you have fun with her poking through her boundaries and producing arousal.

              Not interested on ‘who she is’ otherwise. This is sexual courtship. You’re not there to find out who she really is. She also doesn’t care about who you really are.

              If she were, she wouldn’t not be making everything about finding if you’re top or not.

              She gives absolutely no shits about you.

              Otherwise she would stay regardless of your bad game.

              But as we are discussing there will be some things that she reacts more positively than others either via a facial expression or hahahah or smile or whatever else that comes positive from her.

              Yes. She’ll open to some things and not to others. What she’ll be doing all along is communicating what her model to be fucked is.

              When I find this, I stay in this place (ie. double down) for a while and then continue to move the interaction forward (ie. leading) to other verbal / emotional places where she also responds. When it feels like the ‘energy’ with the girl is good, she is complying and having a good time, then I lead further onwards to sex.

              Yes.

              Considering the polish as a case study, I would need to move the interaction forward and as I know that she is posh girl, my tease + roleplay will be around the ‘posh girl things’ like teasing her about how she is going to afford all those expensive clothes (ie. get a GOOD job or marry rich husband), being an office girl that she is like the watercooler / coffee machine (from all the guys around her), etc. In the context of roleplay, it is around posh stuff including being married to me as a fashion designer where we are at my fashion show in Milano or something of the sort (… but I wont propose).

              NO.

              Why? because you’re pulling these from your ass. You’re ‘thinking’ what would logically work in some scheme of yours. What you have to do instead is TRY a variety of different stimuli on her, which I call ‘swing your dick’, just hit the shit and engage and LOOK AT WHAT SHE RESPONDS TO

              In your story you have had no success in doing this – so it can’t be summed up like you did. Will she find being labelled a coffee machine arousing? or will kissing her butt be arousing instead? Pay attention. This is not your solo dance and you cant find what will arouse HER by doing some theoretical bs on a lab somewhere else. Go out with HER and engage with HER and find out there what she does react to.

              Or – pay attention when some other guy is stimulating her and taking her home to fuck her. What did the trick? what type of guy / what type of dance is she dancing to completion?

              Do you see it.

              Considering the bulgarian girl as alternate case study (she comes across as a shy girl that likes tropical holidays and nature), I am also moving the interaction forward and focusing on who she is and teasing her on this aspect. In the context on roleplay, it could be something of us going to a far away (me and her) to secluded island where the natives have had little contact with the outside world where I am making boats with the men and she is gathering food to make the dinner. Alternatively, the roleplay could be her and me going through the scary woods at night that is thought to be haunted. We go because we made a dare and there is a thrill in it.

              NO.

              Same reason as I gave it above. This is you again trying to come up with BS. Don’t do this. Go out with the girl, engage with the girl, and find out what SHE RESPONDS TO.

              The bottom line is this:

              You trying to find out beforehand what will arouse her and trying to have a map of how the interaction will go etc is you putting up work to fuck her.

              Putting work to fuck her is bottom guy.

              Every time you show an INCH of bottom guy, the girl will lose arousal and make everything harder for you. If you then reply to that ‘increased difficulty’ by putting more work or engaging further with that wall, then you crystalize the bottom guy, both in her eyes and in your internal frame, so you fuck it up.

              The girls are already DTF.

              Before they even met you – they are all, all of them, DTF, right now, for the right type of guy. They all want the dick.

              All these girls you engage with, when the interaction starts, they are ALREADY DTF with you which means you’re good looking and have enough composture their buttons are already pressed and all you have to do is escalate and take them somewhere and bang them.

              All the ‘work’ you’re trying to put into filling this imaginary gap is fucking you over and making you lose the attraction the girls already had for you: you are convincing them you’re not the type of guy they would fuck, even though they thought otherwise originally. So you have to do LESS.

              Reduce all the bullshit, this isn’t rocket science.

              Go simple. Go with the basics.

              In both cases, the teases and the roleplay is both to generate the emotions in the girl and connecting the girl to me.

              NO.

              This is you trying to convince them to find you attractive or something. This speaks about your own lack of self perceived value.

              The teases and roleplay is you screening her while demonstrating you’re the type of guy they would fuck. Which type of guy? your own variation of top guy, the guy you should be 24/7

              You’re not ‘generating emotions and connecting them to you’

              You’re rubbing your dick against their clits.

              In all cases, I am still the same guy (ie. I am not putting on a mask pretending to be posh and talking about fashion labels or about being a nature hippie like saying I love hugging trees).

              Yes.

              In both cases, is that I am tuning (calibrating) the teases + roleplays + everything else to the girl and ‘who she is’ such that it connects with her arousal spots.

              You’re arousing them. By screening them. While operating from top guy frame.

              The emotional highs and absence of highs (generating want of highs) from the above is what will ‘bond’ her to me and allow me to lead her to sex with me.

              NO plus a million.

              It’s not the highs and the absence of highs and you’re not manipulating their emotions by doing convoluted dances with the aim of getting them ‘bond’ to you which would ‘allow you to fuck them’

              Stop there – find that guy inside of you who thinks the phrase above is true, and let him die. He has to be gone. Find a way to tell him ‘thanks for your service, you’re fired’.

              Re – read the stuff so far. It should click.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/30/2018 at 9:21 pm

                I am going to have to reread this over a few days to see if something clicks.

                You’re rubbing your dick against their clits.
                The above line is metaphorical but I am missing what it actually means in interaction. I dont mean a trick or a DHV story or something or other but what does it look like in an interaction? is it the hahahahaha?

                The upside is that while I am thinking it is a certain thing (eg. a role which was in first set of comments or ‘theming’ tease + roleplay to the girl on who she is), you are saying that it is not that. The confusing part is that before you said that I need to look at the girl and she will tell me how to bang her but in trying to understand this, I seem to just not get it at all

                While I am still missing ‘what it looks like in an interaction’, the upside is that I am noting what it is not.

                It may also be something so simple that it just doesnt have a label but at the same time, I cant see it. Is it just me having a good time in the company of the girls (ie. humouring myself) and teasing the girls along the way. If positive reaction, then escalate?

                Are there two case studies that you can provide where the girl is described + situation is described and then you explain what you mean?
                is this even possible (just to remove any constraint in my mind to try and understand this)?

                Is it just a mindset that I must have (the girl is already DTF with me) therefore I am just teasing + roleplaying with her for me to find out if she is going to be fun or crazy. If she sounds like fun, then I bang her else I just pass.

                Is it just really this?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/30/2018 at 10:30 pm

                Watch every video by this guy – check is infields. Check how he talks to the girls, and check how THEY REACT to that kind of treatment. Then process his explanations. He’s saying all the same stuff I do with slightly different lexicon

                https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRn-wnGsb6DaXdi9U-afAsA/videos

                ================

                “The above line is metaphorical but I am missing what it actually means in interaction.”

                You are top guy. You have value. You have tons of chicks who want to be with you. You can fuck any chick you want. You know you’re the prize. You are dominant, self reassured, have swagger, you know what you’re doing – you’re the BOSS, the badass – you’re the ‘dick’, you’re the masculine.

                She’s the feminine. You’re the dick, she’s the pussy. You interact with her, engage with her, rub her, she gets aroused, she wants more – because all along, she was born to find you, and take you in.

                That’s the framing, and that’s the framing because that’s the TRUTH.

                If that’s the dance you dance, that’s the truth, because that dance was written millions of years ago and can only be danced like that. That’s the top guy dealing with a girl who wants to fuck the top guy. That’s the hypergamy in action, and your desire to fuck variety in action.

                The other dance you’re trying to play, the ‘lower status male trying to fuck a girl out of his league’ it can also be danced in another predictable way that ends up in failure – and I call that one ‘bottom guy’.

                Tim (the guy in the vide) calls top guy “the emotional guy” and the bottom guy “the value guy”. This is because he sees it as what the guy is offering the girl. The top guy pings her emotions, while the bottom guy tries to come up with something of value to trade it for the sex (that’s you right now)

                I dont mean a trick or a DHV story or something or other but what does it look like in an interaction? is it the hahahahaha?

                Yes the hahaha is arousal – but many other things will be arousal as well. For some girls it’s deep slow conversations, for some girls is raw adventure, for some girls is drugs, for some girls is veganism, for some girls is ideology, for some girls….

                The upside is that while I am thinking it is a certain thing (eg. a role which was in first set of comments or ‘theming’ tease + roleplay to the girl on who she is), you are saying that it is not that. The confusing part is that before you said that I need to look at the girl and she will tell me how to bang her but in trying to understand this, I seem to just not get it at all

                All the girl does all the time is how to bang her.

                She exposes right away what are the openings and what are the walls. That’s immediate. And that’s because the girl is operating from a routine where she throws shit / puzzles and is ready to evaluate, based on your performance, if you’re top guy or bottom guy. Which means she’s telling you how to fuck her, because as soon as you perform like a top guy would, she’d be aroused and want to fuck you.

                Do you see it?

                While I am still missing ‘what it looks like in an interaction’, the upside is that I am noting what it is not.

                Look how girls deal with men they want to fuck.

                You’ll see the guy is ‘teasing and enjoying himself’ and the girl is all rubbing against him and bending towards him.

                Universally. Check Tim videos.

                You can also see all the other PUA infields by other guys and check the girls chasing / leaning towards the girl, which is the bottom guy dance.

                It may also be something so simple that it just doesnt have a label but at the same time, I cant see it.

                It’s super simple. It’s called “she wants to fuck”

                What’s blinding you is you start with an assumption that she doesn’t want to and that you have to do something else to make her want to.

                Is it just me having a good time in the company of the girls (ie. humouring myself) and teasing the girls along the way. If positive reaction, then escalate?

                As long as you’re operating from top guy frame, yes, that’s it. Or, first you’re a dominant alpha male, then you just ‘have a good time’.

                Are there two case studies that you can provide where the girl is described + situation is described and then you explain what you mean?

                Watch Tim in action

                is this even possible (just to remove any constraint in my mind to try and understand this)?

                Yeah – go out there and pay attention to how girls deal with men they find attractive.

                Likely so far your own bias is blinding you.

                iIs it just a mindset

                It’s not a mindset – it’s the truth.

                Have you seen girls when they are in presence of rockstars? how do they behave? they can barely contain their own scream. Have you seen women fight over things they want to buy in stores? have you seen what female desire looks like? it’s feral, hungry, animal, destructive, selfish, insatiable, all encompassing.

                Your job is to PING THAT.

                This is why rapport is shit as well

                that I must have (the girl is already DTF with me) therefore I am just teasing + roleplaying with her for me to find out if she is going to be fun or crazy. If she sounds like fun, then I bang her else I just pass.

                Yes.

                Is it just really this?

                Yes. “be yourself, have a good time, vibe with her, bang her”

                But first you need to BE or nothing makes sense.

                Behaviorally – when you go out and just do rapport and don’t lead nor escalate and then get creative with walls or make walls of your own, you behave like a bottom guy, so you don’t do the dance, so you lose.

                Be a winner and lead.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/31/2018 at 5:43 am

                When you go to that expat event where the hot girls are surrounded by 5 guys at a time – note the girls body language. Most of the time she’ll be ‘guarded’ aka bending back, but from time to time a guy will behave in a way, tell her something, tease her that will make her face go softer, her eyes get pointy like she’s a cat, have a smile she’s trying to restraint, and she’ll bend towards the guy and maybe initiate physical contact. That’s her reacting to top guy, engaging, and chasing, and it’s the opposite to ‘being guarded’. She’ll go back to her guarded posture, but every time you do what the guy did, she’ll react in the same exact way.

                It’s pre-written and hard wired.

                And it’s almost always the same type of behavior (han solo). Go out there and soak it in.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/31/2018 at 6:16 am

                Thank you for writing it in different words. It is sortof starting to look different but will need to reread everything a bit later on today and watch the video.

                Will then see if I got it right.

71. Lucretius says:

    05/31/2018 at 6:46 am

    Here is another interaction. At the same event where I saw the polish and asked polish to come with me (before she initiated message next day with me), there was also another girl.

    This girl was teasing me and trying to make a bit of fun of me at the time (I didnt really see it as a put down but given the amount of posts already passed, it was a small put down / tease). She was interested in me and when I went to find her at the drinks it was like an hour afterward where she didnt come back and I went looking for her, found her + a few brief words and then I went to speak with other girls. This was before I understood CHASE = DEATH.

    About 2.5 weeks or so later when looking for text practice, I sent the same lines to about 8 girls online just based on their photo. She just happen to be one of them.

    It is currently like this (last message received today):

    [~~~ 16 days after bar drinks ~~~]
    Me : nice pic
    Me : you dont have any compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
    Her: ?

    Me : no sense of humour
    Her: I mean … really?

    [~~~ 10 days later ~~~]
    Her: I think you are funnier when you drink too though , just sayin’ … already enjoyed your sense of humor too at [Bar name].
    Her: Maybe see you at drinks event after summer , thanks for coming back to me :)

    The opening line has already been discussed and was used as she is in a photo by the seaside (lets call her sailor girl). As she replied with just a question mark, I thought she didnt have any sense of humour and responded as I did as I was not going to take non-sense from her and considered it dead (in future, I will respond by remove all ambiguity as learnt from previous chat).

    What I can tell from the above, is that she is reframing everything in her mind. I dont drink to get drunk and at most it would be a single beer that I drink. Outside this, I am just drinking water / tonic / lemonade but saying it is alcoholic drink to avoid ‘why you dont drink discussions’ cause it is just fucking annoying to keep getting asked this question every fucking time. I dont drink cause I like my liver a lot and to prevent weight gain from frequent alcohol and I dont like being drunk when speaking to girls.

    I also was not being funny at the event but just interacting with the group which in her mind she must of saw it as funny (or attractive). In short, there is nothing to reply to her line 1 (funnier drinking + sense of humour) – this line of hers is a ramp from her to line 2. Her line 2 there is an opportunity (door) where it says “maybe see you at drinks event” and then later on a smilie. The “thanks for coming back to me” is just her adding to her opportunity (door) and not something for me to interact with.

    From what I have learnt, I should respond with:
    Me : See you at drinks sometime ;-)

    The rationale for the above is to take her opportunity (door) which is a reward for her coming back to me and wanting to see me (it is what she wants from me – to see me at drinks – aka fuck) while also flirting to set the intention. I also have no idea which drinks she is actually referring to (there are many regularly) but it is also not my place to ask (and I dont care really – if she there, then she there else not).

    My initial response was ‘Maybe ;-)’ but here I am mirroring her words and this is not good.

    Any thoughts on the above? Message not sent yet.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/31/2018 at 7:25 am

      Hah

      Me : See you at drinks sometime ;-)

      Fuck no. Go back. Look at her. Stop your internal nonsense, LOOK AT HER.

      
      [~~~ 16 days after bar drinks ~~~]
      Me : nice pic
      Me : you dont have any compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
      Her: ?

      Me : no sense of humour
      Her: I mean … really?

      [~~~ 10 days later ~~~]
      Her: I think you are funnier when you drink too though , just sayin’ … already enjoyed your sense of humor too at [Bar name].
      Her: Maybe see you at drinks event after summer , thanks for coming back to me :)
      

      Explain what you see / think she’s doing in each line. What’s her motivation. What does she want, and what is effectively saying on each line, and what’s a wall, and what’s an opening.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/31/2018 at 7:27 am

        What is rejection, what is compliance, what is arousal, what is rapport, what is ‘remember and care’, what is ‘come and fuck me’. Tell me what you see

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/31/2018 at 8:21 am

          Can’t type much at the moment

          [~~~ 16 days after bar drinks ~~~]
          Me : nice pic
          Me : you dont have any compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
          Her: ? //likely not understanding
          Me : no sense of humour //my screwup but now I know how to respond at the time
          Her: I mean … really? // wall from her
          [~~~ 10 days later ~~~]
          Her: I think you are funnier when you drink too though , just sayin’ … already enjoyed your sense of humor too at [Bar name]. // first part is put down; second part is remembers and cares (rapport)
          Her: Maybe see you at drinks event after summer , thanks for coming back to me :) // first part looks like opportunity but second part is a trap to get me to chase her as I didn’t come back to her. The smilie looks like bait

          Thinking about this, if I was to send my previous message, I would be playing into her hands and chasing pushing myself lower. I can’t see any compliance unless she trying to acknowledge that I was making a joke

          I would either not respond to her here or have to push back (punish) on the ‘drink too though’. Perhaps something like

          Me : I was only drinking tonic water :-)

          The smilie would be to make the ‘joke’ on her. Would have to then wait and she what she responds with.

          When you say look at her, I was always understanding the visual part (dress, physical reaction) but I think you also mean her verbal behaviour

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/31/2018 at 8:26 am

            Nope, got it all wrong.

            Also ‘a trap to make you chase’ is a wall. An opening where you can actually escalate is not a trap, but an opening. Re-read the interaction man. Go SLOW.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/31/2018 at 8:45 am

              I will go through everything again slowly and try again to break it down.

              Can only look at this after a few hours but will come back today on this.

              Please don’t give answer until I try a bit more else I am just not going to be able to figure this stuff out on my own.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/31/2018 at 8:50 am

                Coolio

          • YOHAMI says:

            05/31/2018 at 8:28 am

            When you say look at her, I was always understanding the visual part (dress, physical reaction) but I think you also mean her verbal behaviour

            Im exclusively talking about behavior – Im talking about opportunities, barriers, doors, walls, arousal, intention, compliance.

            Has absolutely nothing to do with the visual part (dress). Has something to do with body language.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/31/2018 at 4:32 pm

              My internal definition of ‘LOOKS AT HER’ is updated.

              Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/31/2018 at 8:39 am

            How are you leading her towards sex with this?

            Me : I was only drinking tonic water :-)

            Why is she talking to you?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/31/2018 at 4:31 pm

              Point made and noted.

              Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/31/2018 at 8:13 am

        What behavior do you want from her, what behavior you don’t want from her? what should you reward, wha should you punish? also what is she perceiving from you on each interaction?

        This is what you have to pay attention to – not your rationale about what you drink and your reasons ( your interaction with her has nothing to do with the things you wrote). Look at the interaction.

        Reply
72. Lucretius says:

    05/31/2018 at 4:30 pm

    Ok, let me try again:

    Given the pre-existing interaction, I feel that she was interested in me when we were speaking in person even with the minor chase that I did give.

    [~~~~~~ Text transcript ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    [~~~ 16 days after bar drinks ~~~]
    [line 01] Me : nice pic
    [line 02] Me : you dont have any compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you
    [line 03] Her: ?

    [line 04] Me : no sense of humour
    [line 05] Her: I mean … really?

    [~~~ 10 days later ~~~]
    [line 06] Her: I think you are funnier when you drink too though , just sayin’ … already enjoyed your sense of humor too at [Bar name].
    [line 07] Her: Maybe see you at drinks event after summer , thanks for coming back to me :)

    [~~~~~~ Line Breakdown ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    [line 01] – In retrospect, I should of just send “Hey ;-)” and taken it from there but it was just trying out the line and things went the way they went
    [line 02] – Same comment as [line 01]
    [line 03] – This is her just not understanding what I meant (it is what I believe).
    [line 04] – This was me just reacting (badly but it was what came out at the time)
    [line 05] – This is her saying WTF and here it would be a wall for me to interact with. Alternatively, it could also her being serious in asking me if I really think she has no sense of humour. At the time, I interpreted the first viewpoint just based on tone – I decide to do nothing at this point (I lost interest). If it was the alternative understanding, I could of built upon this by just sending “:-P” and seeing her response
    [line 06] – She is commenting on humour as a ramp to continue the interaction but it also looks like an invitation to drinks. The whole [line 06] is also about ‘caring / remembering’ me back when we interacted. This whole line now looks like an opportunity where I can escalate further. She did open me after a long period of silence meaning that her vagina is interested in me.
    [line 07] – The first part of the line is to put the idea of drinks in my head with her (tacitly referring to sex). The second part I thought was a wall but the more I think about it, it could also be something akin to how people speak to each other in formalities “blah blah blah … I await for your swift reply”. I think here she is just saying that she is wanting me to respond back to her (ie. she is eager). This would be the “come and fuck me” part.

    [~~~~~~ General Girl Perception ~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    In general, if I “LOOK AT HER” she is doing the following:
    – Initial perception of me was of an idiot (line 05)
    – The NO CHASE causes her to consider everything and reframe
    – Opens me via message (ie. her vagina is interested)
    – Disregarding the ‘no sense of humour’ remark (ie. reframe) and then saying she enjoyed my company in person
    – Gives me opening to have drinks with her (ie. wanting to meet with me again)
    – Is eager and be happy for me to reply (come and fuck her)

    [~~~~~~ Essence of Text Chat ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    If we replace the words with just meanings, the following is what I see:

    [~~~ 16 days after bar drinks ~~~]
    [line 01] Me : hello
    [line 02] Me : you make fun of people
    [line 03] Her: what?

    [line 04] Me : you not funny
    [line 05] Her: WTF?!

    [~~~ 10 days later ~~~]
    [line 06] Her: bad joke but I enjoyed time in person with you
    [line 07] Her: I busy for summer but lets fuck afterwards

    [~~~~~~ Proposed Response ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    From the above, it looks like she is still DTF and wants me to move forward. I could reply with the following:

    [line 08] Me : After a drink or two, I am the funniest ;-)
    [line 09] Me : Ping me when you are back and we meet up

    [line 08] – This builds on the ‘rapport’ (if that is what it is called – is it called this??) from her line 06 and am escalating further using drinks and funnier (aka sex in this context). It also acts as a ramp for the call to action in the next line.
    [line 09] – Here I am deviating from the “When are you free? I take you out” because she is explicitly stating AFTER summer indicating that she could be going somewhere for holidays (ie. the ‘when’ is the WALL but the ‘maybe see you’ is the OPPORTUNITY). I am telling her (command) to let me know when she is free and then we can meet up.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/31/2018 at 6:25 pm

      Massive improvement, got about 80% nailed, Here’s the recap

      1) You opened with random shit. The tease needs to fit the girl. The ‘you don’t have compassion’ will land on instagram attention-whores who like to flaunt, and will be a miss on anyone else.

      2) The tease didn’t match her so she bounced it back to you.

      3) You had to remove any ambiguity and reopen. “I mean I like your picture” works. Instead you negged her, but it doesn’t make sense, the wall she gave you was self inflicted on your part for saying random shit. Instead of focusing on that wall, go for the opportunity (reopen). The opportunity is that she’s there engaging with you, so she wants the D.

      4) She doubles down on the wall as you made two mistakes on a row, now you’re in frame clash.

      5) You don’t invest further and don’t chase. This is GOLD and is the first instance of top-guy compatible behavior. When time passes, this impression gets stronger and it reframes your previous pings and she questions herself, hey maybe you were right after all.

      6) You meet at an event and you got enough value, a switch happens, now she sees you as top guy (momentarily) and wants the dick, wants it BADLY

      7) She goes back to the chat with the reframe happening in realtime and does your job. See what she did? She took the stuff that happened before, reframed it, tied it to the current situation, made it about you both, gave you validation, and showed you that she cares and remembers. Girl is aroused, transforms into a PUA. Also she’s the one initiating contact: She’s MASSIVELY DTF

      8) Gives you a new playground to fuck her: “maybe someday someday drinks or something” translation: she’s horny and wants to fuck you TODAY. Why today and not in 3 months? because she’s writing this TODAY. So TODAY she’s in. In 3 months she’ll be banging someone else.

      =======================

      Your newer lines

      “after a couple drinks Im funny” is decent, it’s cocky funny. It would be better to REWARD and FLIRT though

      Me: Haha. After a couple drinks you looked kind of cute ;-)

      This line above is funny, ties up with her little game, and is now LEADING in a new direction.

      Now – this ‘drinks after the summer’ has a wall on it which you identified. The ‘ping me when you’re back’ is a decent line in general, but it has the issue that you’re again taking the wall at face value and acting as if it’s real. You’re making the wall happen. Look at it: she didn’t even say she wont be here or that she can’t have sex with you tonight – you INFERRED there is a wall and now are acting as if the wall is there, this is an inch of bottom guy still fucking you over. Here’s what I’d say for a second line

      Me: Are you leaving for the summer?

      This line above ties in with the ‘rapport’ vibe, but it’s actually looking for the opportunity within that inferred wall.

      If she says NO then

      Me: let’s go for a drink or something

      And if she says yes then:

      Me: Let’s have a drink before you go

      Where drink means ‘Im going to fuck your brains out’. So – recap. Send this:

      =========

      Me: Haha. After a couple of drinks you looked kind of cute ;-)
      Me: Are you leaving for the summer?
      Her: hahah
      Her: blab blah blah
      Me: Let’s have a drink before you go

      And fuck her properly.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/31/2018 at 6:49 pm

        Sent.
        I cant do anything this weekend so has to be something next week.

        Note to self: hahahaha is also reward.

        I think the problem that I was experiencing is summed up as:
        “… but it has the issue that you’re again taking the wall at face value and acting as if it’s real. You’re making the wall happen.”

        I am taking the words she is using literally.

        Also, she just replied immediately back (less than 2 min):
        
        Her: Well here is the problem- you got me mistaken for someone else ,
        cause I always look cute ;)
        Her: On and off traveling, as usual…

        So I should now just respond with the following, right?
        Me: Let’s have a drink before you go

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/31/2018 at 6:51 pm

          As a reminder, I cannot do anything this weekend so have to push into next week? How is this handled? Is it a simple:
          Me : Cant this weekend but next week available

          Still have to send the “lets have a drink before you go”

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/31/2018 at 7:02 pm

            Send “Let’s have a drink before you go”

            After she complies to that (she will) then you arrange logistics

            See how this is done? :-)

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/31/2018 at 7:26 pm

              Sent. Now in wait mode.

              There is definitely things in my head that are not right about how this should go as I am always expecting something which has no basis in reality (discussed a few times already).

              I still need to go through the earlier posts and break it down further. The roleplay part does not feel right in my head in that I do not have a correct understanding. Will post over the weekend as time allows.

              What I am finding is that it is sometimes just a single word extra from your side on your previous concepts that make things click, but without that word I understand something completely different (eg. look at her). It turns out that a bit of backwards and forwards is required for me to get to that point.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/31/2018 at 7:34 pm

                I am always expecting something

                You’re tuned to go for walls – jumping from one obstacle to the next one. See even when you’re supposed to lead like in my line above your gut reaction was “I can’t this weekend”.

                The up side is that this has nothing to do with you – this is ‘frame’ and you share that frame with 80% of men. It’s the ‘bottom guy’ frame.

                So don’t take or make it personal – that frame is not you, it’s just a frame. Understand it for what it is an upgrade to the proper one.

                Also what you have on your favor is that all these girls are super DTF and making it easy for you. Most men (me included) don’t have that as granted. You can ‘look at her’ and she’s giving you plenty of room to move forward. Most men just get walls. So take advantage of it.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/31/2018 at 8:51 pm

                Also don’t send this line

                Me : Cant this weekend but next week available

                That’s you setting a wall and creating obstacles before she’s in. First get her compliance, then set logistics. And sex doesn’t need to happen on the weekends.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/31/2018 at 9:00 pm

                Noted.

                Still nothing from her but at the same time nothing for me todo.

                Will post her reply when it becomes available.

73. Factory says:

    05/31/2018 at 11:04 pm

    “drink means Im going to fuck your brains out”

    GOLD

    Reply
74. Factory says:

    06/01/2018 at 1:46 am

    An exchange from Wednesday. Strong IOI (on my lunch break) – stopped her and called her out on it. Brief conversation and number close.

    Been improving my text game thanks to Yohami and the examples / breakdowns here. Perhaps an example of how to lead and take opportunities. No “kicking about the bush”

    ==========

    M: That was random. The look on your face was gold ;-) [sent an hour or so after meet]

    H: Haha is was wasn’t it. You caught me off guard ;-) [that evening]
    H: How was the rest of your day?

    M: Was fucking great
    M: And yours?

    H: Haha I’d say mine was about the same

    M: Nice
    M: You seem like fun. Let’s hang out ;-)

    H: Yeah let’s haha
    H: Do you wanna meet up for a drink or something on Friday?

    M: Awesome
    M: Meet me at XXX bar at 6pm [after work]

    H: Sounds good. I will :-)

    M: Great. See you then

    H: See you

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/01/2018 at 8:03 am

      H: Do you wanna meet up for a drink or something on Friday?

      Bang bang – see how she’s pressing that accelerator herself :-)

      Did you notice improvement on your real-life game as well?

      Reply
      • Factory says:

        06/02/2018 at 1:30 pm

        Yes, her text demeanor was the result of a fun flirty touchy initial interaction. We only spoke for a few minutes but the vibe “was on”.

        And yes, everything has improved. Because it’s the same man in real-life as in the texts, right :-)

        Many thanks bro

        Reply
75. Lucretius says:

    06/02/2018 at 12:16 pm

    Seaside girl comes back:

    Her : I am already gone (emojie girl with one hand palm up)

    What I interpret from the above is “Yes, I am interested in a drink” (opportunity is there) but cannot right now (wall). The emojie is also indicating that nothing can be done now (my interpretation).

    The only response I can do here is:

    Me : Ping me when you are back

    The rationale for the above is for me to:
    – Not engage with her ‘unavailability wall’
    – Acknowledge the situation (ie. not go silent) and effectively say “we make plans when you back”
    – By not time boxing it (ie. not asking “when are you back?”) prevents me chasing and being ‘needy’

    Counter thoughts?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/02/2018 at 4:42 pm

      Reply this:

      Me: Too bad

      ===================

      And let it be. The line above is top guy and will make her vagina tingle, while your call to action was bottom guy and would make her put a wall. Let me know if you see why. I’ll break it down if not.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/02/2018 at 4:44 pm

        Replies crossed as you posted.

        Would it be my ‘counter thought’ that I posted below?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/02/2018 at 4:54 pm

          Here’s a breakdown

          Me: Let’s have a drink before you go

          That was a perfectly timed call to action to fuck her, and she was displaying eagerness. To your call to action, she replies this:

          Her: I am already gone (emojie girl with one hand palm up)

          That’s a wall. She could have added an opening, “Im already gone but Im back in a couple weeks” or something. Instead she opted for a straight up wall, which is likely a trap for bottom guy. Why? she came to you and flirted, now you ask her out, she’s still too much on the lead, you may be bottom guy, so there’s your trap.

          What would bottom guy do? invest more.

          You already did a call to action. She rebuked it. This is why doing a call to action again now means you’re chasing

          Me : Ping me when you are back

          She just pushed your invitation away and didn’t offer a raincheck. That’s not behavior you like or you should reward. If you do another call to action, in a row, you’re trying to push through that wall she just gave you: so you’re bottom guy.

          Yes, asking ‘when are you back’ would be more bottom guy. But this is the actual top guy frame: ‘no dick for you then’ which translates to

          Me: Too bad

          The dick was on the table, now it’s not on the table, at least not hers. You proposed an escapade, she decided to play hard to get, this is the end of the relationship as long as you’re concerned.

          So THIS is ten times more powerful than trying to do a call to action when she’s walking away from you.

          Ten times more powerful than not chasing after the initial teases. Stop talking now, then watch what she’ll do. It may take a day or a month but when she talks back she’ll be the one setting the date.

          100% of the time.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/02/2018 at 5:13 pm

            My attempted response was to not invest further (ie. not to say ‘so when are you back?’) but inadvertently I was still investing.

            The logic was coming from the Polish girl which ended the texts like this:
            
            Her: Hehe you are fun. To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available.
            Me : No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

            I was looking at the same component (she gives wall, i push away wall and have her come to me) and trying to apply for seaside girl.
            But I think the dynamics between Polish and SeaSide girl are different therefore cannot apply.

            If I think in terms of ‘essence of message’ for seaside, it looks like this (just relevant segment):

            Her: I am always cute ;) (possible trap if comment on cute)
            Her: very busy travelling now and then (wall with door)
            Me : Lets fuck before you go (taking door)
            Her: Unavailable for fucking (wall no door)

            My original proposed response ‘Ping me when you back’ would have essence of:
            Me : Tell me when you back to fuck (interacting with wall + setup future chase for me to her)

            The above is effective chasing on my part as she is saying not available and I am trying anyways

            Your proposed response ‘Too bad’ would have essence of:
            Me : No dick for you (see wall but do nothing)

            Is the above a better interpretation using ‘essence of message’?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/02/2018 at 5:45 pm

              Yes

              Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/02/2018 at 5:21 pm

            I just realised that this is a call to action:
            Me : Ping me when you are back

            Seems silly but didnt really think of it actually being a call to action.
            Made mental note on this.

            Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/02/2018 at 4:42 pm

      Thinking of revising to:

      Me : No problem. Ping me when you back.

      The addition of “No problem” is to show the ‘unavailability wall’ not affecting me.

      A counter thought (why it may not be good) is that the ‘No problem’ could also indicate ‘eagerness’ on my part (ie. dont worry, I will wait for you) but I dont know if I am overthinking things and seeing things that are not there.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/02/2018 at 5:00 pm

        She set a wall with no openings – so that’s not behavior you want. If yerou say ‘no problem’ you’re saying her wall is not a problem and you’re accommodating to her. “ping me when you’re back” is needy because this is the second call to action in a row, and you’ve got a wall in the middle.

        You don’t like that wall, so you punish that wall. In this specific case the wall is just sent back to her. “too bad” an it’s over, just like that. If you continue to go after her right now you’re chasing, and she’ll put a stronger wall.

        Reply
76. Lucretius says:

    06/03/2018 at 10:48 am

    Rereading the aspects of teasing:

    Do you [come here often]
    There can be either a yes or no answer (sometimes is also a yes). This is effectively a ramp question into the next part.

    Yes, questions like that are done just to break rapport. You ask something short and non-important, her yes or no will be compliance, and then you take that somewhere else.

    Me: Do you come here often?
    Her: Yes / No
    Me: Help me pick a drink. How is the sex on the beach?

    If I try to follow the above, should the conversation continue like this:

    [~~~ Girl at Bar ~~~]
    Me: Do you come here often?
    Her: Yes
    Me: Help me pick a drink. How is the sex on the beach?
    Her: Its great

    [~~~Turn to bartender~~~]
    Me : The girl says that I should try the sex on the beach
    Bartender: You ever had one?
    Me : Was good but sand got everywhere
    Her: Blush
    Me : You drinking wine? Drink slowly else you will blush even more //(assumption she has wine glass)
    Me: short pause to see if she says something – assume not so who are you //(smirk on my face)

    On last line, if she says something then I would build on it.
    Would the above be going in the right direction?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/03/2018 at 10:49 am

      Formatting issue. The italics are her actions. WordPress interpretted by words around asterix as italics.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/03/2018 at 11:01 am

      The bartender wont ask this

      Bartender: You ever had one?

      Unless she wants a threesome

      Me: You drinking wine? Drink slowly else you will blush even more

      Shit game – in a predictable way by now as there’s a clear pattern.

      In this ministory you’re flirting with the girl, she plays along, then you include the bartender (good game), the bartender ALSO plays along so everyone is DTF. The girl blushes. The blush means she got turned on. Here the correct move would be to reward and escalate. The reward would be some mini rapport ( who are you?) and the escalation would be a call to action, story, roleplay, something. Here’s what you chose instead:

      You punish her blush.

      Her blushing is she playing along and being carried away. If she’s actually drinking wine, the wine will have the effect to make her MORE aroused even.

      But you chose to punish that.

      Why? focus:

      Me: You drinking wine?

      Negging her drink.

      Drink slowly

      Call to action – telling her to do something that is specifically contrary to what should happen. The sooner she finishes that glass the quicker she’ll be free to have sex with you

      else you will blush even more

      You bring up the blushing / put her in the spot. But blushing is actually your feedback loop / she’s playing along / getting turned on. You have to double down here.

      Very interesting pattern isnt it?

      You go rabidly punishing the openings and then try to climb on the walls.

      Try a 180 spin

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/03/2018 at 11:04 am

        Better game (after some rapport)

        Me: Wine looks good on you (reward for her blushing)
        Me: Finish that glass and let’s go [activity / roleplay somewhere]

        So the clear path is kind of the opposite of your line there

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/03/2018 at 11:25 am

          I start to wonder how many times I am going to have to bang my head against the wall to see the subtleties.

          On the bartender saying something back to me, this happens very often.
          I am with a girl and I say a few words, and then order a drink and then I say something immediately after ordering the drink and a short ‘chit chat’ starts between me and the bartender (<2min). I dont know why, but this happens frequently.

          On this aspect:
          Her: [~Blush~]
          Me : You drinking wine? Drink slowly else you will blush even more //(assumption she has wine glass)

          I wasnt actually thinking in terms of compliance / non-compliance. My mind was just trying to move the conversation forward where she would be giving me some ‘words’ to tease and roleplay more (ie. I was looking for more material)

          If I recognise that the blushing was her compliance response (NOTED – dang, how many memories come back of girls blushing and me ‘accidently’ punishing them), I would of probably said something like:

          
          Me : The wine is making you look nice.
          Me : Come. Lets go over there //(while being a little ahead of her and motioning her to come along)
          

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/03/2018 at 11:56 am

          Better game (after some rapport)

          Didnt see this part before my other post.
          What kind of rapport would be had here?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            06/03/2018 at 12:31 pm

            Who are you, chit chat, passing judgement on things, stories, etc

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/03/2018 at 12:31 pm

            Let me try again:

            [~~~ Girl at Bar ~~~]
            Me: Do you come here often?
            Her: Yes
            Me: Help me pick a drink. How is the sex on the beach?
            Her: Its great

            [~~~Turn to bartender~~~]
            Me : The girl says that I should try the sex on the beach
            Bartender: You ever had one?
            Me : Was good but sand got everywhere
            Her: {Blush}

            [~~~Turn back to girl~~~]
            Me : The wine is making you look good //(said with smirk)
            Me : who are you
            Her: I’m [girls name] //(I expect this response when asking ‘who are you’)
            Me : [Lucretius]. Lets go over there and continue //me being slightly ahead to have her follow

            [~~~At other side of room~~~]
            Me : so whats up with you
            Her: blah blah blah

            Me : {tease / roleplay depending on what she says}

            Would the above be more as it should be?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/03/2018 at 12:33 pm

              Her: {Blush}

              Me : The wine is making you look good //(said with smirk)

              Yeah – but not right there. If you call her on it immediately it counts as putting her on the spot, which is a neg

              Instead use it to escalate and lead

              LATER you can use the ‘wine makes you look good’ as a ramp for a call to action

              Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/03/2018 at 12:34 pm

              The question is: why are you trying to put focus on her blushing?

              Will that arouse her MORE?

              Where are you trying to go?

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 12:44 pm

                As she ‘responded’ to my remark with the bartender in blushing, my attention is turned onto her blushing (ie. reacting to her response).

                My initial response, I understand that I am effectively telling her not to blush which is not what I want

                My second response is still focused on the blushing but not saying it is a bad thing

                I know your line says:
                Me: Wine looks good on you (reward for her blushing)

                But I dont see the connection to the blushing or why this is a reward (unless a compliment – … good on you).

                My focus on the blushing is coming from something you said before about ‘closing loops’ on another post. My previous attempts was to close this ‘drinks loop’. Judging by your responses, I have likely misunderstood this concept.

                If my first and second responses are not correct, my thinking now would be to give a gentle smirk at her (effectively flirt).

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/03/2018 at 12:50 pm

                my attention is turned onto her blushing (ie. reacting to her response).

                Her blush is involuntary. It’s a sign of arousal / compliance.

                When you ping her and tease her, her vagina will also tingle. That doesn’t mean you can now say

                Me: oh I see your vagina is tingling

                Because by bringing the focus on it, you will make her (invariably) try to defend herself by trying to control it / trying to kill it / trying to hide it.

                Instead, use the arousal / blushing / compliance to lead and escalate forward.

                It’s a green light.

                But you can’t go as “hey now you gave me a green light”

                My second response is still focused on the blushing but not saying it is a bad thing

                You’re putting the onus on it, or, putting her on the spot. This will invariable make the girl rise walls.

                Don’t put them on the spot.

                When put on the spot it means now they have to use their agency and do sociable-acceptable things. You’re basically forcing her to say NO.

                My focus on the blushing is coming from something you said before about ‘closing loops’

                The blush is a non-verbal thing. You can close the loop by initiating kino, getting closer, wink etc.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 1:08 pm

                
                Her blush is involuntary. It’s a sign of arousal / compliance.
                …
                Because by bringing the focus on it, you will make her (invariably) try to defend herself by trying to control it / trying to kill it / trying to hide it.
                …
                The blush is a non-verbal thing. You can close the loop by initiating kino, getting closer, wink etc.

                This explains it well.

                Would this be a general rule for whenever the girl is showing non-verbals signs that the ‘loop closure’ is also non-verbal?

                Examples of non-verbal (positive) signs from the girl:
                – blush,
                – smiling directly at me,
                – laughing at what I am saying,
                – head tilted to the side but smiling at me,
                – etc

                Example of non-verbal responses from guy:
                – initiating kino (depending on her comfort level – arm around her, move hair from face, take hand, hug),
                – getting closer (reduce space between me and her)
                – wink
                – etc (I dont know what could be etc).

                In this case example, I would likely close the loop with a wink (feels most appropriate).

            • YOHAMI says:

              06/03/2018 at 12:45 pm

              Me : [Lucretius]. Lets go over there and continue //me being slightly ahead to have her follow
              [~~~At other side of room~~~]
              Me : so whats up with you

              There you’re doing a call to action to take her apart (from the bar, group or whatever) then going for rapport – that’s shit game. If the played along with your call to action to take her apart from the group, she’s ready for sex.

              Do all the rapport and boring shit on the bar or the group or whatever. “what’s up with you” is a very early opener / call for rapport. “Let’s go somewhere else” means sex. Don’t take her somewhere else to chit chat

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 12:52 pm

                NOTED (in Bold).

                I remember taking girls from one place where noisy to another where quieter for chit chat. This has happened a quite few times.

                Thinking, is this valid if it is too busy / noisy at the bar?

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/03/2018 at 12:52 pm

                If she went away from the group to a quieter place with you, she was ready to be fucked

              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 1:09 pm

                I was meaning if she was alone at the bar

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/03/2018 at 2:58 pm

                Doesn’t matter if she’s alone: if she’s going out from the pool of people into a place where she’s more isolated with you, she’s telling you she’s ready for a major escalation

              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 3:20 pm

                Just for me to have an idea in my mind as to how the escalation should be happening at this point, can you provide steps of how it should be happening from your eyes?

                In my mind, there would be something small at first then progressing upwards until kiss and then bounce home. Like:
                – Kino on hand / arm / moving hair
                – Then kiss
                – Then to stop (from my side) and sip the drink for a moment
                – If all good, then to say ‘lets go’

                Alternatively, something more verbal first:
                – She mentions something (dont know what todo tomorrow)
                – I would have to escalate (sex is a great way to start the day)
                – She would escalate on this (and to finish the night)
                – Kino on moving hair
                – Then kiss
                – Then to stop (from my side) and sip the drink for a moment
                – If all good, then to say ‘lets go’

                For clarity, the ‘stop from my side’ is to pace the interaction (not punish) and measure her response. If all good (ie. she wants more), then to progress back home.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 3:24 pm

                On the last part about pacing, it is also to see if I really want to take her home or not. She could do or say something at that point that turns me off.

                Things in my mind should not be predetermined or not until I say ‘Lets go’

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/03/2018 at 5:00 pm

                These are viable scenarios, just remember that you can’t pre-plan the interactions and have it structured – you need to be there in the moment and paying attention to her state, so you can lead properly

                Then as a general rule this is bad game

                – I would have to escalate (sex is a great way to start the day)

                Stating that you’re going to fuck her is generally bad game, as it’s ‘announcing instead of doing’. But it can be fine, it depends on the girl.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/03/2018 at 5:12 pm

                How should the verbal escalation go if I cannot ‘announce’ (ie. be obvious) of sex? Would I use inuendo or something else? In other words, how do I verbally lead at this point?

                If I am at the point of escalation, doing or saying anything outside of escalation would be de-escalation and going backwards which would count heavily against me.

                For clarity, I am not trying to preplan this point but having an idea of how it should be going would help me work out the direction I should be moving.

                Every girl and every situation is going to be different and therefore anything ‘set in stone’ is not going to work.

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/03/2018 at 6:00 pm

                The escalation should be mostly physical

      • Robinhood says:

        06/03/2018 at 1:58 pm

        Yohami said somewhere that me , luc, blue are all making the same mistakes by reading some pua stuff. I don’t know where its from, maybe some old school PUA like Mystery maybe? The rationale behind punishing a girl or doing takeaways
        when she’s chasing is to get her to chase more/comply more since I’m hard to get. She chases and you do a takeaway to raise your value further. Because if you give her what she wants as soon as she complies a little bit, you will come across as needy/desperate. Something like that.

        Reply
77. Lucretius says:

    06/03/2018 at 6:00 pm

    Keeping it interesting, new interaction now running via online:

    Background: Just online photos. She has nothing distinctive in her photo except she has hand on neck with chin slightly down and looking forward at the camera (ie. I see her trying to project sensuality). Nothing on which to work with to tease her (I have no idea how to tease sensuality of even if I should)

    [~~~ Text Transcript ~~~]
    Me : Hey ;-)
    Her: Hey)

    [~~~ Analysis ~~~]
    What I can see from the above is that she is mirroring me and also smilie.

    [~~~ Proposed response ~~~]
    As there is nothing to go on, the following possibilities come up:
    1) Me : so who are you //(going for more information)
    2) Me : so whats up with you //(going for more information)
    3) Me : I really like your photo //(validation)

    Option 3 is me just giving validation without anything, so I exclude this
    Option 1 doesnt feel like there is enough at the moment to just start asking this
    Option 2 looks the best to get more information out of her to see if there is something I can build on

    Any other thoughts?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/03/2018 at 6:02 pm

      Do you know her? and what do you want to happen in this interaction?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/03/2018 at 6:05 pm

        Dont know her at all. She just a face at the drinks and she was checking my profile out.
        My aim is to see her at the drinks (photos can be deceptive).

        The approach would be to:
        1) get more information from her to allow interaction to progress
        2) rapport / break rapport, tease, roleplay with her a bit to find out what she is like
        3) if all goes well (ie. I like her), then make plans to meet up with her end of next week to continue in person

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/03/2018 at 6:07 pm

          Focus on her first – who is she? why are you contacting her? what do you want? what’s your level of interest? what type of girl is she? party girl? nerd? simpleton? what

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/03/2018 at 6:17 pm

            Who is she?
            In terms of personality, cannot tell at the moment. Right now she is just a cute girl

            why are you contacting her?
            She looks cute and I want to know more of her.

            what do you want?
            I want to know more about her and what she is like. If she is fun (in text and person) then I would like to bang her. Else I just let everything end

            what’s your level of interest?
            On a scale of 1-10 with 1 lowest and 10 highest, it is a 7. Threshold is at 6 for me to initiate contact

            what type of girl is she?
            party girl – could be because of the makeup and the posing for the camera
            nerd girl – does not give me this impression
            simpleton – does not give me this impression (makeup + accessories in hair)

            [~~~ General viewpoint at this stage ~~~]
            She may be a party girl looking to meet new people for fun

            Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/03/2018 at 6:03 pm

      Another alternative would be combine 3 and 1
      4) Me : I really like your photo. Who are you (validation from her pose / reward for response + going for more information)

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/03/2018 at 6:23 pm

      Here’s the principle again.

      You should ping her if you find her sexually desirable. You ping her to see if she’s receptive, and tease her to provoke a reaction. Her reaction will tell you if she wants to play or not, and what type of game she plays. So with that in context, here’s how your current approach is lacking

      My aim is to see her at the drinks (photos can be deceptive).

      Your aim should be to check if she’s worth your time to bang her. “see her at the drinks” is weak (this will frame everything you do)

      1) get more information from her to allow interaction to progress

      Progress towards what?

      2) rapport / break rapport, tease, roleplay with her a bit to find out what she is like

      Rapport / break rapport is a technique that comes from top frame and is attractive – it wont tell you who she is. Teases are to simulate her sexually. Roleplay are to create a space where you can play and explore things. So what do you want to find here? what she’s like? that’s asexual = weak, it will come across as such

      3) if all goes well (ie. I like her), then make plans to meet up with her end of next week to continue in person

      Continue what in person?

      =====================

      So I this is about frame: your intention needs to be crystal clear. It needs to be a fully realized MAYBE. Can’t be kicking around the bush before you even open her. This has to be your intent:

      You’re interested on her sexually and want to find out if she’s worth your time.

      That’s the starting frame. Fuck everything else.

      And if she’s worth your time and you’re feeling it maybe you’ll take her out and fuck her TODAY.

      This isn’t about ‘seeing her at the drinks and continue in person’. You will lose against proper top guys.

      4) Me : I really like your photo. Who are you (validation from her pose / reward for response + going for more information)

      You’re using a flirt that is very reassuring “really like” comes from deep rapport. Then “who are you” is rapport. So you’re giving free validation and cutting that to dissipate the tension into rapport.

      Basically, don’t do that.

      =========

      Me: You’re cute

      Send that. She’ll say ‘thanks’. Then you ask “were you at the drinks? and start a mini convo, see what comes up. Then tease, escalate, take her out.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/03/2018 at 6:44 pm

        Sent.

        Looking at each of the points
        You should ping her if you find her sexually desirable. You ping her to see if she’s receptive…
        I am doing this. If I had no sexual interest, I would not ping her – not looking for ‘text buddies’ or ‘female friends’. My wording my be a bit reserved at times but have made a mental note to be a bit more explicit.

        My aim is to see her at the drinks (photos can be deceptive).

        Your aim should be to check if she’s worth your time to bang her. “see her at the drinks” is weak (this will frame everything you do)
        I am looking to see if she is worth my time to bang but I do see a problem here in that I am trying to slot everything in a calendar friendly way which may be shooting myself in the foot.

        1) get more information from her to allow interaction to progress

        Progress towards what?
        Here I want to know if she is fun or crazy (ie. worth my time). If she is fun, then I progress it towards sex. Or is it perhaps that I should progress towards sex by default and cut it if she is not what I like?

        Rapport / break rapport is a technique that comes from top frame and is attractive – it wont tell you who she is. Teases are to simulate her sexually. Roleplay are to create a space where you can play and explore things.

        These are some good definitions.

        3) if all goes well (ie. I like her), then make plans to meet up with her end of next week to continue in person

        Continue what in person?
        Not looking to have chit chat with her. Want to make sure that she is worth my time and need to see her in person.

        In general, I think an issue that is appearing here is that I am thinking in NO UNLESS instead of MAYBE which is YES UNLESS and this is likely driving all my responses to your questions.

        You’re using a flirt that is very reassuring “really like” comes from deep rapport. Then “who are you” is rapport. So you’re giving free validation and cutting that to dissipate the tension into rapport.
        Technical error understood (validation without WAIT).

        The “really like” was from the other chat where the girl did not get the “no compassion travel” opener so I am a bit confused here why I have “Really like” for one girl but not another.

        On the “were you at the drinks?”, I feel that this would be better:
        Me : were you are the drinks? havent seen you before

        The above is true that I havent seen her anywhere before. She would like explain this or that and will build from there

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/03/2018 at 7:26 pm

          For the other girl, the “really like” was a clarification to remove ambiguity after she didnt understand a tease

          In this case you are opening her – so you need to tease or flirt before going into rapport

          Flirt:

          Me: you are cute

          Also dont add the “havent seen you before” thats both giving her explanations, and a form of ‘remember and care’

          Me: were you at the drinks?

          Thats not for rapport, thats a tie in for inviting her out

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/03/2018 at 7:31 pm

            Also dont add the “havent seen you before” thats both giving her explanations, and a form of ‘remember and care’

            Thank you for spelling this part out. I was thinking in terms of question + statement (RAPPORT / BREAK RAPPORT) but did not see ‘remember and care’

            Reply
78. Lucretius says:

    06/03/2018 at 7:51 pm

    When it rains, it pours – another interaction ongoing:

    Background: Photo of girl lying on towel by the tool without top (nothing visible). The whole photo gives ‘instagram attention seeker’. Given this she is likely attention seeking and likes to travel and flaunt it.
    Given her profile picture (no top by pool), I see a sexual girl. I am sexually interested at this point.

    [~~~ Text Transcript ~~~]
    Me : nice pic
    Me : you have no compassion for people who cant afford pool side holidays, do you
    Her: compassion is not found
    Her: Another holiday booked
    Her: Sorry
    Her: [emojie cool smilie]

    [~~~ Analysis of her response ~~~]
    What I can see from the above is that she is playing along with the ‘no compassion + holiday’ theme.
    Given that she reacted strongly (multiple lines) she is likely a talker as well. Her first line ‘compassion is not found’ is a very specific way of speaking that I have heard before – cant explain it but I know the style.

    [~~~ Proposed response ~~~]
    Decide to keep the theme going a bit deeper rather than build on her new holiday booked (at least not now)

    Me : haha … you’re like a rich kid eating candy in front of orphans just to rub it in, arent you

    By putting the haha I am rewarding her and then building on the neg which is also teasing her.

    Thoughts?

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/03/2018 at 8:20 pm

      I am going to try to run this one on my own and see how it turns out. Will post after it has progressed a while.

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/03/2018 at 8:31 pm

        She showed she doesn’t care about compassion and now you’re doubling down on the wall and you are feeding her ego (rich kid not giving a damn about orphans).

        She will be entertained for sure, just like she’s entertained by the hundreds of thirsty betas liking her topless instagram pics.

        Commenting on the pci of a professional attention whore is a sure way to fail with her.

        Better opener”

        me: yo dawg
        her: hi
        me: wassup
        her: blabla

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/03/2018 at 8:59 pm

          Her response did not feel like a wall.
          Will see if there is a followup from her side or not.

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            06/03/2018 at 9:11 pm

            To be effective the tease must land and place her in defensive mode,

            Here she agrees with your criticism and amplifies it.

            You accuse her of being a bad bitch who doesn’t give a damn about poor people. She goes “Yes, i am”

            Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/03/2018 at 8:54 pm

      Things left here:

      [~~~ Text Transcript ~~~]
      [line 01] Me : nice pic
      [line 02] Me : you have no compassion for people who cant afford poolside holidays, do you
      [line 03] Her: Compassion is not found.
      [line 04] Her: Another holiday booked.
      [line 05] Her: Sorry.
      [line 06] Her: [Emojie cool smilie]

      [line 07] Me : haha … you’re like a rich kid eating candy in front of orphans just to rub it in, arent you
      [line 08] Her: As bad as good I can be [Emojie cool smilie]

      [line 09] Me : you little devil
      [line 10] Me : were you at recent drinks?

      [line 11] Her: No..
      [line 12] Her: chose not to :)
      [line 13] Her: You?
      [line 14] Her: I’m off to bed, sweet devil dreams [Emojie cool smilie]

      [line 15] Me : On and off – depends on who attending
      [line 16] Me : haha … whispering in my ear, are you

      [~~~ Analysis ~~~]
      [line 01 – 06] already discussed
      [line 07] sent my response
      [line 08] She keeps playing along (ie. neg landed)
      [line 09] I reward and give her a nickname at the same time
      [line 10] I am moving the conversation somewhere else towards drinks to see if anything comes up
      [line 11] her response to my question
      [line 12] her justification which I interpret as not much happening at the drinks
      [line 13] she mirrors my question back to me
      [line 14] She is telling me that she is off to bed (wall) but plays along with nickname
      [line 15] I respond to her question and to the undercurrent of her line 12
      [line 16] I reward her for playing along with nickname and it becomes roleplay (she a little devil whispering things in my ear). I could of added ‘night’ at the end and in retrospect should of to close from my side the chat. I was not trying to continue the chat at this point but without the ‘night’ it likely could appear that way. Some comments on this specific response of mine would be helpful.

      [~~~ General overview ~~~]
      The things I did positively here are:
      – managed to build on her answer in line 08 and give her a nickname (little devil). This has room to work with (whispering naughty thoughts in my ear)
      – I was rewarding consistently as she was playing along (at least from my perspective)

      [~~~ Next action ~~~]
      None – I would have to wait until she re-opens me. As I did not close with ‘night’, this is even more important that she opens me such that I am not in CHASE.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/03/2018 at 9:04 pm

        For [line 15], I could of added a bit more:

        [line 15] Me : On and off – depends on who attending. If I dont like, I move to another bar

        Feels like I was in ‘follower mode’ in this section. By adding extra words, I would give option for conversation to continue elsewhere.

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/03/2018 at 9:18 pm

        [line 01] Me : nice pic
        [line 02] Me : you have no compassion for people who cant afford poolside holidays, do you

        Time to switch to direct flirts, or come up with different teases for each specific girl, aim for the ‘hahaha’

        [line 03] Her: Compassion is not found.
        [line 04] Her: Another holiday booked.
        [line 05] Her: Sorry.
        [line 06] Her: [Emojie cool smilie]

        This is a ‘better than thou’ type of girl. She took the tease at face value, like you’re one of the orbiters, and maximized it. She’s flaunting, feeding of free validation, and mistaken you for food.

        [line 07] Me : haha … you’re like a rich kid eating candy in front of orphans just to rub it in, arent you

        The purpose of this line was to ping the ‘hahaha’ on the original convo. There was not a haha here, so you’re doubling down on the wall, feeding the gap that she gave you.

        [line 08] Her: As bad as good I can be [Emojie cool smilie]

        She again takes that gift to put herself on a pedestal, far away from your reach. Note there’s zero compliance – you’re acting as a beta orbiter and she’s squeezing every drop and giving nothing in return

        Also, this is ‘how to fuck her’. This is someone who probably bangs rich losers and is out there living as a vampire

        [line 09] Me : you little devil

        More free validation from you. This is x3 playing on the same hand

        [line 10] Me : were you at recent drinks?

        You switch to rapport

        [line 11] Her: No..

        Wow, will she go into rapport?

        [line 12] Her: chose not to :)

        Ah, she turns this into another reframe to show how she’s cooler than thou. She’s using her agency to not be associated with the low class like the people you hang out with

        This is very deliberate. Now she’ll make this more obvious

        [line 13] Her: You?
        [line 14] Her: I’m off to bed, sweet devil dreams [Emojie cool smilie]

        She creates rapport, then breaks rapport. Top guy language – in devil fashion. Do you feel depleted now?

        The only time she extended the hand and had a posture like she cared at all who you are and where you’ve been, she immediately breaks that and goes away – no pause!

        [line 15] Me : On and off – depends on who attending

        And you fell for the trap. Sorry guy, she’s gone already. How does it feel to talk to the void?

        [line 16] Me : haha … whispering in my ear, are you

        And now you flirt to the wall. See the pattern?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/03/2018 at 9:19 pm

          None – I would have to wait until she re-opens me.

          Chances are she won’t reopen. If she reopens it will be to replay this and push you down some more.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/04/2018 at 3:25 am

            If she opens again, then she does and if not then not.
            As it is now clear that I am being led on, there is nothing more to it.

            Having had a bit of time to think on things, even if she had lead me on I would of eventually figured it out and cut things off there (it has happened before and probably will happen again as I am not seeing nuance).

            If I consider what is the WORST that could happen from her leading me on for a while, it would just be wasted time on my side and the BEST from her side is free validation.

            The concept you put forward (Top Guy / Bottom Guy and all connected parts) are intellectually clear but the issue right now is that I am constantly getting little positive feedback (missing the “Lucretius, this part you did right …”) and a getting lot of negative feedback (many deprecating questions with some sharp name calling especially from FlatLander). I acknowledge the gap of where I am and yourself / FlatLander is palpable.

            To be clear, this is the internet and I am not looking to be handled with fluffy gloves but what I am seeing over the past week or so is that I have more FEAR of posting my interactions and getting feedback than I have of failing (going nowhere) with the girls. This is what is causing me to wanting me to stop posting not because of any attempt to protect my ego (I know I am making many mistakes and will still fail often) but because I am starting to feel more shit every time in getting the feedback than in making attempts with new girls and trying again. This shit feeling is starting to affect me in a negative way and I have concerns that it could spill over into other areas.

            In other words, the concern of negative re-enforcement from the feedback is becoming a greater concern and coming at a higher cost (emotionally) than trying to debug my mistakes in the girl interactions. This is what I see as the cause of me not wanting to trying anything new and causing the freezing up.

            On separate note, I will continue to compile everything you have written (as mentioned before) and will drop a post to get it to you somehow (word doc).

            Thanks again for everything.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/04/2018 at 8:06 am

            She opened again this morning:

            Her : no I am not. It’s very intimate to do so

            The above is a clear wall and I would of seen it at this point that something had gone wrong.

            No response from my side and I end it at this point with her.

            The two weeks should give me enough time for internal recomposure and to rereview everything (various posts) from before

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/04/2018 at 8:47 am

              Girls are brutal

              Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/03/2018 at 9:19 pm

        [line 08] Her: As bad as good I can be [Emojie cool smilie]

        [line 09] Me : you little devil

        Just building her bitch side up. Free validation and ego boosting.

        [line 10] Me : were you at recent drinks?
        Aimless chit-chat. Or button-mashing.

        [line 11] Her: No..
        [line 12] Her: chose not to
        [line 13] Her: You?
        [line 14] Her: I’m off to bed, sweet devil dreams [Emojie cool smilie]

        She’s ending the convo.
        Do you see it?
        Can you see she’s ending the chat?
        Why are you carrying on?

        [line 15] Me : On and off – depends on who attending
        [line 16] Me : haha … whispering in my ear, are you

        Two lines, chasing her hard after she said she was going to sleep.

        That last line is creepy af, dude.

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/03/2018 at 9:06 pm

      That’s a wall – there’s no ‘hahaha’. I mentioned that this particular tease has the problem of playing into the girls hand. When this was a possibility before, I added that second line “you’re like a FAT kid eating candy” which turns the tease into a neg, here you changed it into “RICH kid” so you’re giving her free validation x2

      But basically she didn’t ‘hahaha’ so that’s a pure wall.

      The fact that there’s no ‘hahaha’ means the tease didn’t land. The tease lands when she plays along – not when she takes your free gifts and builds a wall and pushes you to the other side

      The ‘hahaha’ is where you would invest the consecutive lines, ‘fat kid’, ‘orphans’ etc. Here if you keep doubling down you are, again, being creative and flirting with a wall.

      Me : haha … you’re like a rich kid eating candy in front of orphans just to rub it in, arent you

      She didn’t hahahah – she set a wall. So here you’re ‘hahaha’ to her wall so you’re rewarding the wall.

      Do you see the pattern of punishing openings and escalating on walls. Flip.

      ===============

      Tease vs Flirt as openers. Bottom line:

      TEASES are specific. You can’t go random with them. The tease needs to be aimed at the girl and you need to be going for a specific reaction.

      If you’re going to spam a bunch of girls with the same type of line, switch to pure flirts

      Me: Hey cutie

      Just flirt.

      If you want to do teases, then tease the girls aiming for a hahaha. So you’d have to tune for each girl, so you’re communicating with HER

      ================

      I haven’t seen the pic of this girl and don’t know if it’s worth pursuing after that reply. I can’t blame her though, if it didn’t land it’s similar to the other girl who just said “?” and then “really?”.

      So I’d likely just bypass this interaction and reframe

      Me: It’s ok
      Me: ( new line of conversation )

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/03/2018 at 9:16 pm

        I thought the [emojie cool smilie] was her form of hahahaha.

        The tease really did fit her here and I dont see it as random
        I changed the FAT kid to RICH kid as it looked like it connected more with orphans.

        Failure on my side was to see the wall. Well, if it was a wall then it was a wall.
        Nothing more todo so just move on.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/03/2018 at 9:20 pm

          FAT is neg, RICH is validation

          Reply
79. Lucretius says:

    06/03/2018 at 9:49 pm

    All noted. I am going to take a break from posting everything and keep trying on my own for a while without posting.

    Everything is being too micromanaged to the point of me becoming drained and losing interest. I am still going to make mistakes but that is the way it has to be as in this mode, it is not working either (too worried about what is the right response / wrong response that I am just freezing up)

    Thank you for all the help and feedback thus far

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/03/2018 at 9:57 pm

      Good luck man

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/04/2018 at 6:03 am

        Yeah, good luck, L.

        Also think about hiring a coach or attending a bootcamp. Seeing pros and students in action is an eye-opening experience and allows many men to get out of their heads.

        Eddie and Richard from Street Attraction are very nice and are running regular bootcamps in many European cities.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/04/2018 at 6:31 am

          Been watching these guys for a while – no excuse to have that shitty body language if you’re an instructor

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=200&v=Tj4w4i6L4bk

          But yeah, real life coaching should help

          Reply
80. YOHAMI says:

    06/04/2018 at 6:04 am

    Ok Luc important stuff

    I understand that getting tons of negative feedback ‘hurts’.

    What I’ve been doing though, and FlatLander with a more colorful tone, is just translating to you what the girls are not saying out loud. You can turn off the translations so you’re not hurt – but the real world feedback won’t change. So put your focus there: the real positive and negative feedback from the world.

    As for me, sorry if Im too blunt, at the same time, fuck your sensibilities. Why?

    Because the ‘hurt and scared’ part of you is precisely the bottom frame. Why should you give a fuck? what that means is you need more testosterone and competition in your day to day life.

    So – what are you doing right:

    You seem to be taking a lot of action and are actively trying to learn things. This is GREAT.
    Also you have a ton of value for the girls, either looks or demeanor or something because the girls are all massively DTF at some point, some of them starting communication and escalating. That’s a fantastic starting point

    And what are you doing wrong?

    Pretty much anything you say out loud or in text to the girls, which is why you’re getting the negative feedback from me and Flat (and ALL the girls).

    There seems to be some clear patterns aka, mirroring, boring asexual rapport (that you seem to have fixed in real life), and a tendency to punish openings / compliance (‘you’re still chatting me up’ to a girl who’s into you, ‘drink slower or you’ll blush more’ to a girl who got aroused, ‘I only had tonic water’ to a girl who’s chasing you) while escalating and getting flirty when you’re presented with walls and rejections (‘devil girl talking into my ear’ when she just broke rapport).

    So look at THAT. And change it. Then the feedback will be positive, from the girls specially. Which is what counts.

    How to change it?

    Get x10 more experience and put yourself in brand new situations and groups so you have the chance to reset, and try again and again and again to game the group, game the girl, be the cool guy, lead, escalate, take girls home. Catch yourself when mirroring etc. And specially pay attention to the girls and their behavior, so you can see compliance and can reward it, and walls and can punish them or set these aside.

    ===============

    Now some specifics

    The concept you put forward (Top Guy / Bottom Guy and all connected parts) are intellectually clear

    Coolio

    but the issue right now is that I am constantly getting little positive feedback (missing the “Lucretius, this part you did right …”)

    With that you’re inviting me to kick you in the ass. For real – read that book called ‘games people play’.

    If you had said this to a girl, would exposing the ‘wounded bottom guy’ which means she’d be trying to stab you in the heart next. She can’t help it. FlatLander will give you extra shit just for that.

    The bottom line is that if you want more positive feedback, then your performance has to be better.

    and a getting lot of negative feedback (many deprecating questions with some sharp name calling especially from FlatLander).

    FlatLander is in love with you.

    I acknowledge the gap of where I am and yourself / FlatLander is palpable.

    That’s ok – for you it should be about understanding what the gap is about, breaking the structure that is keeping you down, and building a ladder.

    The ‘gap’ is not there to put you down, it’s there to be climbed. It’s also not just going away on it’s own.

    To be clear, this is the internet and I am not looking to be handled with fluffy gloves but what I am seeing over the past week or so is that I have more FEAR of posting my interactions and getting feedback than I have of failing (going nowhere) with the girls.

    That’s understandable – the difference is that we’re actually telling you what you’re doing wrong, while the girls will just act on it and go silent.

    This is what is causing me to wanting me to stop posting not because of any attempt to protect my ego (I know I am making many mistakes and will still fail often) but because I am starting to feel more shit every time in getting the feedback than in making attempts with new girls and trying again. This shit feeling is starting to affect me in a negative way and I have concerns that it could spill over into other areas.

    Makes sense

    In other words, the concern of negative re-enforcement from the feedback is becoming a greater concern and coming at a higher cost (emotionally) than trying to debug my mistakes in the girl interactions. This is what I see as the cause of me not wanting to trying anything new and causing the freezing up.

    Yeah – google “fight or flee” mechanism. You’re facing a monster and are getting paralysed and if that would infect your frame then it would fuck up the rest of your life.

    Cool!

    What you have to do there is LOOK AT IT. Look at the eyes of the beast. And CHOOSE TO FIGHT.

    That’s how you’ll find the way up.

    On separate note, I will continue to compile everything you have written (as mentioned before) and will drop a post to get it to you somehow (word doc).

    Thanks again for everything.

    No problem. Keep your eye on the basic concepts and pay attention to what the girls are doing.

    1) Ping tease / flirt
    2) Watch her react
    3) If she gives you an opening, reward and escalate. If she gives you a wall, deflect it or push it aside or neg her or stop investing. If she gives you both an opening and a wall (which will be most times) focus on the opening part
    4) Iterate, escalate with call to actions

    That should be enough, see you on the other side

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/04/2018 at 7:49 am

      Give it two weeks or so and I come back

      Everything just needs a moment to wash through (likely all part of the process)

      Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/04/2018 at 4:58 pm

      I understand that getting tons of negative feedback ‘hurts’.

      What I’ve been doing though, and FlatLander with a more colorful tone, is just translating to you what the girls are not saying out loud. You can turn off the translations so you’re not hurt – but the real world feedback won’t change. So put your focus there: the real positive and negative feedback from the world.

      Been thinking about what is causing this shit feeling in me and it is not negative feedback per say. The issue is around what is happening on the feedback.
      1) Another interaction goes by
      2) I realize I made mistakes but cant pinpoint them exactly (just see general area)
      3) Feedback i get is ‘You messed up. Do you see it? DO YOU SEE IT?’

      The problem is coming from item 3 where I cannot see it because if I did then I would of not made the mistake.
      When the solution is immediately provided by yourself + FlatLander, I am still ‘not seeing it’ even though the solution is put in front of my nose.
      Intellectually, I think I see it (the explanation) but in practice I am still missing it and this is likely coming from me not being able to figure it out on my own before the solution is provided.

      It is then the constant loop (1->3; 1->3; etc) that feels like I am not making any progress that then causes me to feel shit like I am banging my head against the wall over and over.
      Having identified the above, the shit feeling is starting to go away quickly (like another 2 days and it all gone after a few more interactions).

      If I could ask for future feedback, if you could say something like:
      – You are coming across as chasing / nerdy / creative in the wrong way / creepy / gay / etc (your favourite choice of adjective)
      – You missed the X number of key points in the interaction
      – There were Y number of walls and Z number of openings
      – You could of turned things around X number of times
      Can you find all the above in the interaction? If not I can provide more hints and if really not then a breakdown followed by some smackdown

      The above is really what happened with the seaside girl and having me go over and over it again, until it came out right is what caused me to learn from my mistakes and allowed me to create the proposed texts for the bulgarian which is something I would not have been able to do 2 months back.
      In other words, if there is a hint to figure out where the interaction went wrong and I have the opportunity to try to fix it, it will prevent me from feeling shit and demotivated. SO DONT GIVE ME THE SOLUTION WITHOUT HINTS AND LETTING ME TRY AGAIN!!

      As for me, sorry if Im too blunt, at the same time, fuck your sensibilities. Why?
      Because the ‘hurt and scared’ part of you is precisely the bottom frame. Why should you give a fuck? what that means is you need more testosterone and competition in your day to day life.

      You (and FlatLander) being blunt is not the problem and is fine to state your points as you do (I am not looking for being handled with kid gloves). The problem is again when there is feedback of the type ‘Do you see it? DO YOU SEE IT?’ without some context coupled with the bluntness and pointy adjectives that creates the reflex emotional response in me (my brain asks “Am I really fucking retarded?”). On the ‘hurt and scared’ part, there is truth in here and it is a part of me that needs to break. What I am feeling is that it is the perceived lack of progress on my part that is causing me to feel shit because I seem to be making the same mistakes over and over (brain says “WTF!! I can do some seriously technical stuff in professional life but fucking retard at this gaming girls thing”). I have no delusions over where I am and have no ego to protect but it is again dealing with my mind. Again, I need hints and to try again in analyzing interaction.

      And what are you doing wrong?
      Pretty much anything you say out loud or in text to the girls, which is why you’re getting the negative feedback from me and Flat (and ALL the girls).
      The negative feedback is just feedback and is fine. What I would like is that I am given hints as to where I am going wrong before the solution is provided such that I can try to figure out the problem myself. If I dont try over and over to work it out, it doesnt click in my head. Also a generic label like ‘Tease here’ by itself doesnt help – a suggested tease would help drive the point home and give me brain something to work with.

      There seems to be some clear patterns aka, mirroring, boring asexual rapport (that you seem to have fixed in real life),
      This is all real and I acknowledge it where over the recent real life interactions and texts and moving away from.

      and a tendency to punish openings / compliance (‘you’re still chatting me up’ to a girl who’s into you, ‘drink slower or you’ll blush more’ to a girl who got aroused, ‘I only had tonic water’ to a girl who’s chasing you) while escalating and getting flirty when you’re presented with walls and rejections (‘devil girl talking into my ear’ when she just broke rapport).
      Here I think this is a problem of perspective. While I do understand that I am escalating on wall, punishing compliance, etc, I dont think this is the actual problem because I intellectually know to deflect walls, reward compliance, etc. The problem for me is CORRECTLY IDENTIFYING the walls, compliance, etc. I am not getting the identification correct and thus am doing the (sortof) right things but onto the wrong things and it leads to the outcome you and FlatLander have been seeing – the poolside girl the most recent.

      A way for me to explain this is like we are looking at the young woman / old woman illusion (or the rabbit / duck illusion if you prefer). I am seeing one thing and acting on that whereas you and FlatLander are seeing the other things and providing feedback on that.

      In other words, I can see the plain and simple walls and the plain and simple opportunities. But when there is a mix of the two or a ‘camouflaged’ wall, then I screw up because I cannot correctly identify it and therefore act correctly but on the wrong thing (eg. doubling down on wall). For the poolside girl, her initial response had the [emojie cool smilie] which I thought was her hahaha and from there everything went. If I now remove the cool smilie, the tone from her is different. So this is my lesson in that interaction (I must read everything with and without smilies).

      …but the issue right now is that I am constantly getting little positive feedback (missing the “Lucretius, this part you did right …”)
      With that you’re inviting me to kick you in the ass. For real – read that book called ‘games people play’.
      If you had said this to a girl, would exposing the ‘wounded bottom guy’ which means she’d be trying to stab you in the heart next. She can’t help it. FlatLander will give you extra shit just for that.
      To be clear, I am not looking for a pat on the head or a gold star on my forehead. What I was looking for is what I mentioned earlier (you coming across like …, you missed x number …try again)

      On the book ‘games people play’, I have read it and understand the transactional psychology nature. If I look at the poolside girl (after everything), she was playing “validate me” where the thesis is to get the other players to keep validating her (compliments, putting her on a stool, making her feel special, etc). The antithesis would be to deflect her attempts and neg, deflect and insert own game or to not play at all (eg. silence). My issue was in my initial failure to identify the wall and so everything went pear shaped from there but her response this morning revealed the game to me as it was a plain straight up wall hence silence given my current standing in the that game. If you would like to continue playing (for laughs) with poolside girl via me as proxy, I will happily continue – her last response has been posted earlier today.

      and a getting lot of negative feedback (many deprecating questions with some sharp name calling especially from FlatLander).
      FlatLander is in love with you.
      I am sure he is madly in love and will be sending me a valentines next year (a heart shaped box full of whoopass chocolates)

      
      I acknowledge the gap of where I am and yourself / FlatLander is palpable.
      That’s ok – for you it should be about understanding what the gap is about, breaking the structure that is keeping you down, and building a ladder.
      The ‘gap’ is not there to put you down, it’s there to be climbed. It’s also not just going away on it’s own.
      This I know and it is why I am still here and keep coming back. The gap has to be analyzed and understood with practice. Any existing structure needs to be broken down. On the ‘structure game’, enough time and interactions have passed that I dont remember much of it anymore therefore this part is almost gone but the building up of ‘principled game’ is still ongoing with its own problems as your seeing.

      To be clear, this is the internet and I am not looking to be handled with fluffy gloves but what I am seeing over the past week or so is that I have more FEAR of posting my interactions and getting feedback than I have of failing (going nowhere) with the girls.
      As mentioned earlier, problem is emotional response of feeling like there is no progress but this is also a self imposed illusion. Looking through my phone of other chats with girls I have had over the months & years (not posted), I can see clearly where I am pushing + escalating against walls, punishing compliance, etc. Going forward, I will obviously not do this yet these new girls are using ‘camouflaged’ walls which I have not been able to identify correctly at this time. Over time and further iterations, I will eventually get a strong enough feel for what they look like and be able to address them.

      This is what is causing me to wanting me to stop posting not because of any attempt to protect my ego (I know I am making many mistakes and will still fail often) but because I am starting to feel more shit every time in getting the feedback than in making attempts with new girls and trying again. This shit feeling is starting to affect me in a negative way and I have concerns that it could spill over into other areas.
      In other words, the concern of negative re-enforcement from the feedback is becoming a greater concern and coming at a higher cost (emotionally) than trying to debug my mistakes in the girl interactions. This is what I see as the cause of me not wanting to trying anything new and causing the freezing up.
      This is an inbuilt mental ‘safety valve’ to prevent one thing infecting everything else – I only have one vibe / mental state across complete life. As I have been able to identify the cause, I will be fine again shortly.

      In summary, keep the feedback coming but give me HINTS and the chance to try to figure out my problem before the solution is provided.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/04/2018 at 5:56 pm

        Makes sense!

        Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      06/04/2018 at 5:43 pm

      On separate note, I will continue to compile everything you have written (as mentioned before) and will drop a post to get it to you somehow (word doc).

      So you’re compiling all of Yohami’s comments from this blog and Riv’s blog since he started posting there into a word doc?

      It would be a huge document, and great if you shared it with us all, so we go through it and read it from beginning to end. Like was done for Roissy or Tyler’s comments on the mASF archives.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/04/2018 at 5:56 pm

        I didnt say anything about Rivs blog.

        The collation of Yohami comments is to have a quick reference for myself on what he is saying so I am not constantly searching for things on this blog. Initially it was just for me but he wants a copy of it too which I am find to pass to him but I dont want to provide his comments 2nd hand to someone else in the event that I have misquoted or re-arranged something that does not make sense (ie. I dont want to speak on someone else’s behalf).

        If you want the comments, it is best if yohami publishes them himself (even if it is exactly my document) as this way it will be vetted by him. Or we could all wait for his book which will be written by him.

        Thinking about it, there is also nothing stopping anyone else from doing exactly what I am doing.

        Reply
81. Lucretius says:

    06/04/2018 at 8:55 am

    While I am still sorting things out internally, I am still looking at the Bulgarian.
    She is free days and works nights. I am at the opposite.

    But on Friday, I have to be near her area for an eye specialist and can spare 2 hours or so during the day to see her if she available.

    I would think that the text chat would go something like this (will send on Wednesday):
    Me : Hey ;-)
    Her: hi blah blah
    Me : I will be near [her area] on Friday during the day from X time
    Me : You free?
    Her: blah blah (assume yes)
    Me : great. Will text you when I am near

    The above may become more specific if she specified a time but aim is to use less words. I won’t bend backwards to rearrange things on my side and if the calendars align then they align else I say ‘too bad’ and go silent. This last line depends on how she responds to not being available (ie gives me alternative or not).

    Thoughts?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/04/2018 at 9:07 am

      That looks good. Make sure to set it as a fuck date and be prepared. That’s what she’ll hear

      Me : I will be near [her area] on Friday during the day from X time [TO HAVE SEX]
      Me : You free? [TO HAVE SEX]

      Her: (response to have sex)

      It will be either compliance or a mi of compliance and walls

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/06/2018 at 12:45 pm

        This is how the discussion with the Bulgarian went:

        Me : Hey ;-)
        Her: Heeey good morning [emojie rainbow, emojie blush smilie]
        Me : I will be near [city area] during the afternoon
        Me : you free?
        Her: yes I am … but until 17-18 … then I have to work
        Me : great. I am free from 12:30 till 15:00
        Me : will text when I am near
        Her: Perfect…let’s meet at 13 somewhere around the city center
        Her: next to [shop name]
        Me : [emojie thumbs up]

        On the above, everything went to expectations. Something on myself is that I was not explaining why I was going to be in her area (2 months back I would of felt the need to justify it). If she asks in person then I say. Focus of text chat was not to plan everything via text but just enough to get there physically and lead things from there.

        The plan of approach is to get there, greet her and then i move us to a cafe or restaurant bar somewhere to have a light snack. As it is day time, alcohol doesn’t feel like the norm but I will order a beer and see what she is going to order herself. As it is a two hour window in total (I cannot extend it as I got to leave at 15:00), it would be flirt, tease and likely land into rapport and then I break rapport and then judge and then tease and flirt (incl. kino) and then suggest we go to her place. I expect this to be latest by the 45min mark. From there it is escalate at her place and bang. Then have to move onwards to my appointment at 15:00

        Only thing in my mind to work out is how to suggest a place in the direction she stays without brining up where she stays before being at the cafe.

        Any suggested thoughts in general?

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          06/06/2018 at 2:50 pm

          On the above, everything went to expectations. Something on myself is that I was not explaining why I was going to be in her area (2 months back I would of felt the need to justify it).
          Progress.

          If she asks in person then I say.
          No. It’s a secret. You’re a spy, a hitman for the mafia. If you tell her, you’ll have to kill her. Play with her. She doesn’t want straight answers. Boring guys give straight answers.
          Alternatively, you say “business meeting” and change the topic.

          Focus of text chat was not to plan everything via text but just enough to get there physically and lead things from there.

          It is impossible to plan everything.

          BUT
          BUT
          BUT

          You are responsible for the logistics. This means that you must find a place where you will fuck her. What if she’s DTF, but doesn’t want you to to come to her place?

          The plan of approach is to get there, greet her and then i move us to a cafe or restaurant bar somewhere to have a light snack.
          Wrong. You’re not there to stuff you face. You’re there to stuff her. Eating with her is boyfriend behaviour. Nash gets away with it, but you’re not Nash.

          As it is day time, alcohol doesn’t feel like the norm but I will order a beer and see what she is going to order herself.

          No, you order for her and you order alcohol. What was she drinking at the party?

          As it is a two hour window in total (I cannot extend it as I got to leave at 15:00), it would be flirt, tease and likely land into rapport and then I break rapport and then judge and then tease and flirt (incl. kino) and then suggest we go to her place. I expect this to be latest by the 45min mark. From there it is escalate at her place and bang. Then have to move onwards to my appointment at 15:00

          You are punishing her for compliance. No need to tease, break rapport and all that. She’s attracted, let her talk, then a few spikes (interrupt her: “I like your eyes”, “Nice legs” as she walks back from the toilet.

          Quick drink and then “Where’s your place? I wanna see it.” OR “Let’s go. Show me where you live.”

          Only thing in my mind to work out is how to suggest a place in the direction she stays without brining up where she stays before being at the cafe.

          This is bottom guy through and through. You can do better, L.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/06/2018 at 3:37 pm

            Fair points all round.

            I am overthinking things considering the backwards and forwards on this.

            So the interaction will be mostly flirt, let her talk, flirt, let her talk, flirt then bounce to her place.
            On the ‘thinking of way to mention to her apartment’, this is bottom guy as I am now problem solving where it likely is not an issue – thank you for pointing it out.

            On the sex location, it is either her place or nothing. Dont have the time and not going to spend money for an hour room (assuming one can even be found). If it works out, then it works out else ‘too bad’ for her.

            If she was coming to see me, then it is different as logistics are totally within in my control.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/06/2018 at 6:45 pm

              So the interaction will be mostly flirt, let her talk, flirt, let her talk, flirt then bounce to her place.

              Not quite yet – think about this. What’s the basic dance you should be doing? we’ve gone through it a few times

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/07/2018 at 6:02 am

                Not sure I am following here.

                I do recall the following:
                Here’s how the dance goes
                1) You call to action, initiate action, ping. The first ‘hi’ and opener falls in this category.
                2) She reacts, she does her part. She’ll respond to what you just did with a level of interest and a level of rejection, or “a door” and “a wall”
                3) You focus on the part of her that is a “door”, or the part of her that is receptive, and double down there.
                Repeat 1)
                4) Chill back and relax, tell stories, DHV, “swing your dick”, display your manly attributes. This is different than 1 in that you’re not doing a move or call to action, just vibing, asking questions, getting her to qualify, teasing her, making her laugh, doing kino, etc. Being. To every little thing you do, she will immediately do
                2) React.

                I also do recall that:

                As girl, she is checking me for top guy / bottom guy
                As guy, I am checking if she is worth the time + effort for the dance

                As there is a fuck date already agreed, we are already along the way in the dance. Nothing is committed on my side until I say ‘lets go’ from the bar to her place.

                So for me it is a strong MAYBE unless she does something I don’t like. Throughout the ‘quick drink’ it is always looking for opportunities and ignoring/deflecting walls but this would be standard across all interactions.

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/07/2018 at 8:27 am

                Yeah – so when you’re narrating this it’s not assuming that she’s there to have sex, it sounds as if you are there to eat and flirt and do other things.

                So first, the framing is that this is about sex and she’s coming because she wants the dick

                Second, you continue the screening process by teasing, flirting etc.

                Then you WATCH HER REACT. Why? because you’re still testing for how receptive / fertile she is. And what do you do when she’s giggly and receptive? you

                Escalate.

                So that’s the process that it’s not being fully communicated here

                So the interaction will be mostly flirt, let her talk, flirt, let her talk, flirt then bounce to her place.

                It could be there – but it sounds as you premade / solo plan. As if ‘I am going to do this’

                It’s leaving HER out.

                Why is she there? what will she do? how will she react? what does she want? how compliant is she? etc. Look at her – not just her clothing. Watch her behavior, motivations, what is she reacting to? what is making her more aroused, what makes her less aroused?

                If you want ot bang her, make her more aroused.

                So put your mind here:

                1) Go to the date with an open mind but with the assumption that she’s there for sex

                2) Tease / flirt / chit chat / kino / enjoy

                3) See what activates her

                4) Double down, escalate, call to action

                =========

                And yes ‘where do you live? I want to see your place’ is fine. But likely she’ll be telling HOW TO FUCK HER all the time when she’s on the date. She’ll likely communicate if her place is a viable option or not early on.

                Best of luck

              • Lucretius says:

                06/07/2018 at 3:50 pm

                Yeah – so when you’re narrating this it’s not assuming that she’s there to have sex, it sounds as if you are there to eat and flirt and do other things.

                In my mind it was about sex being there but perhaps not as “to the fore” as you are stating it should be.

                Second, you continue the screening process by teasing, flirting etc.
                Are you referring to just the tease / chit chat/ flirt/ kino or also including rapport + break rapport, judgement? I ask because of your answer vs FlatLander and want to avoid misunderstanding something.

                It could be there – but it sounds as you premade / solo plan. As if ‘I am going to do this’
                This is what I had in my mind. I was not looking to work out every detail before hand but to have a ‘loose structure’ on how the 2h would go so I don’t get stuck in a particular place and lose track of time. But here I also see how I am excluding the girl. If I take a step back, it is really me + girl interacting for 2h where sex is the connotation.

                Overall, I just need to be there in the moment and move from moment to moment. When she is giggling / laughing or making ‘doggy eyes’, then I say ‘How is your new place? I want to see it’

        • Factory says:

          06/07/2018 at 2:30 am

          She sounds super DTF… so good!

          Hopefully all the hard work will pay off now Luc

          Good luck man

          Reply
82. BlueValentine says:

    06/04/2018 at 11:34 am

    Hey Yohami.

    I don’t think “Openings” is well defined for text.

    In a real meeting, my understanding is that openings are: when you do something and you see it arouses the girl, so you do more of it.

    In text, I do not think it’s possible to know for sure the impact of our words on the girl.

    So, when I look at texts, I think of openings and walls as: a wall is a negative things that is pushing us further from sex; and an opening is a positive that can bring us closer to sex.

    In a theoretical example, if a girl says:

    Her: I cannot meet on Thursday.

    What is the wall / negative / pushing sex away? It is that she cannot meet Thursday without alternative.

    What is the opening / positive / bring us closer to sex? It is the answer itself. The medium is the message. If the girl answers at all, there is a level of interest there.

    Or is this incorrect? Should openings be clearly stated and that she responded is never considered an opening?

    Another example:

    Her: I am not looking for sex. We can be friends.

    What is the wall / negative / pushing sex away? It’s the friendzoning.

    What is the opening / positive / brings us closer to sex? It is that she mentions sex. Which means she considers the man as a sexual threat, she thought of sex with him.

    Or am I reading too much into it?

    So should openings always be stated? And never read too much into them?

    For example, I’d imagine a clear mix of walls and openings to be:

    Her: I want to be friends. But you’re cute.

    Or

    Her: I can’t meet Thursday. But Sunday for sure.

    Or

    Her: I don’t know you that well. We should spend more time together.

    (Here I see she is telling the guy she needs more comfort before sex).

    What do you think?

    Because this trying to read between the lines to find any possible theoretical opening might be fucking my text game up.

    So when a girl says:

    Her: I cannot meet you. I’m leaving the city.

    I read into it: Ok, the opening is I can try to fuck her fast before she leaves the city. That’s the opening.

    But often I end up with silence if I text to meet before that. So I was crashing against a wall assuming there was like an opening small window within the wall somewhere.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/04/2018 at 12:44 pm

      I think of openings and walls as: a wall is a negative things that is pushing us further from sex; and an opening is a positive that can bring us closer to sex.

      Yes and true for IRL. Here’s what’s killing you:

      But often I end up with silence if I text to meet before that. So I was crashing against a wall assuming there was like an opening small window within the wall somewhere.

      Specifically:

      assuming there was like an opening small window within the wall

      The window / opening is not ‘within the wall’

      Or, don’t look for ‘openings in the wall’. That’s bottom frame. The wall doesn’t have a door. Walls are not doors. Walls are walls, and doors are doors. Obstacles are obstacles, opportunities are opportunities.

      Sometimes you can flip one, but first the basics

      Her: I cannot meet on Thursday.

      The wall here is that there’s no raincheck. So it’s not that she can’t on thursday, but the non-willingness to meet you.

      Yes of course she will have time at some point – if she’s interested, but the barrier is not TIME but LACK OF DESIRE. So if you go against the stated ‘wall’ and start chasing the availability, “friday? tuesday? saturday? earlier? later?” you’ll keep bouncing against the real wall which is the lack of desire. There’s no raincheck = she’s not into you. Why she’s not into you? because she doesn’t see you as valuable. Why she doesn’t see you as valuable? because she perceives you as bottom guy.

      Which then you confirm if you deal with that wall in a chasey / desperate manner.

      What is the wall / negative / pushing sex away? It is that she cannot meet Thursday without alternative.

      Nope – what’s pushing sex away is that she doesn’t want it. She wouldn’t be sending that text to a guy she wants to fuck.

      What is the opening / positive / bring us closer to sex? It is the answer itself. The medium is the message. If the girl answers at all, there is a level of interest there.

      No – the answer is her wall. She’s communicating with you to push you away. That’s wall. If you take that wall as your bridge to come in you cross into rapey / creep / weirdo territory and will end up blocked and with a restraining order on you. And no, a restraining order is not ‘the medium is the message and a level of interest’.

      I wonder why you want to see the walls as signs of interest. That’s a microcosmos. YES and NO are big things.

      Or is this incorrect? Should openings be clearly stated and that she responded is never considered an opening?

      Yes, openings are clearly stated. But you need to be familiar with them to see them. The girl initiating contact is an opening regardless of what she says for example. The girl pushing you away is not an opening

      Her: I am not looking for sex. We can be friends.

      Without more context that looks like a hard wall, and she doesn’t want to be your friend either

      What is the wall / negative / pushing sex away? It’s the friendzoning.
      What is the opening / positive / brings us closer to sex? It is that she mentions sex. Which means she considers the man as a sexual threat, she thought of sex with him.

      No. She’s mentioning sex to push it away, so that’s a hard wall. The opening would be ‘we can be friends’, that’s what she is saying YES to. But in this context that’s probably a lie / a trap.

      Her: I want to be friends. But you’re cute.

      She’s DTF, there are no walls here at all

      Her: I can’t meet Thursday. But Sunday for sure.

      Same, she’s rescheduling because she wants the D.

      Her: I don’t know you that well. We should spend more time together.

      Same. No ambivalence at all.

      So here:

      Her: I cannot meet you. I’m leaving the city.

      The translation is she won’t fuck you, and you will never see her again. That’s a triple wall then a fuckon of distance between you to and a restraining order. That’s not ‘lets have sex before I go’

      I read into it: Ok, the opening is I can try to fuck her fast before she leaves the city. That’s the opening.

      Well it COULD be. But there’s not an opening in that line, though you can create one. It depends on how you arrived to this line. But at the core there’s no opening, just a wall.

      How do you flip that? you ask things so she exposes the opening. Let’s assume she has been DTF in the past and was flirty (so this is not running away but offering a minigame)

      Me: Hey lets hang out
      Her: I cannot meet you. Im leaving the city
      Me: What? when
      Her: Tomorrow, Im going to russia to see my parents blah blah (this rapport signals that she wants more contact)

      Then you could

      Me: Need some help packing? I’ll bring a bottle of wine

      Or

      Me: Let’s have a drink before you go

      Then

      Her: (happy girl)

      ========

      But this is not about

      Me: push
      Girl: resist
      Me: push more, different angle
      Girl: resist
      Me: push push push swing push push neg flirt push push
      Girl: resist
      Me: push neg push push clash push push flirt neg neg did it work?
      Girl: resist
      Me: there’s gotta be a door somewhere!!!!

      That’s not it.

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        06/04/2018 at 3:12 pm

        Great explanation, Yohami. Things are much clearer now.

        Her: I want to be friends. But you’re cute.

        She’s DTF, there are no walls here at all

        Her: I can’t meet Thursday. But Sunday for sure.

        Same, she’s rescheduling because she wants the D.

        Her: I don’t know you that well. We should spend more time together.

        Same. No ambivalence at all.

        Ok. So could you please give some theoretical examples of a mix of walls and openings? It seems the examples I thought were of mixed walls and openings did not have them at all. So how do mixed texts look like?

        Also, how do you define a trap? I thought a trap is simply a wall that you acknowledge and crash into. It’s the wall she puts, but if you ignore it and focus on the opening then you don’t fall into the trap.

        So are Traps a different thing from Walls?

        I remember Riv talked about a trap you helped him overcome when a girl texted him something like this:

        Girl: We can meet but I will bring my girl friend with me.

        So the opening is: we can meet. The wall / trap is: I will bring my girl friend with me (because this makes sex more difficult to accomplish).

        From my understanding of you, we focus on openings and ignore the walls.

        Then, a correct ignore will be something like:

        Answer: Excellent ;-)

        Since we ignore the walls and respond to the openings. Or will that simply be falling into a trap?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/04/2018 at 5:52 pm

          Yes but it depends. Here’s a similar case https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/yohami-helps-rivelino-text-game/

          Re: traps. A trap is when she proposes something that will make you go all bottom guy if you play along. Mostly when they give you walls or start a game where you’re a chaser.

          Reply
83. Lucretius says:

    06/05/2018 at 9:20 am

    @yohami
    Looking at role play again, I did not get it right in my previous attempts before where I was talking about posh girl and Bulgarian girl.

    Can you provide two case examples of how role play would work (the verbal / non verbal exchange)? Any of the prior girls can be used as situational background information if relevant.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/05/2018 at 11:45 am

      A roleplay is a story, a call to action, a projection that involves the two of you and assumes some dynamics that aren’t possible at the moment. A roleplay is basically “imagine IF”, where the thing you are asking her to imagine is conductive to the type of relationship you want with her

      Take this for example

      
      [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
      [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later
      [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

      Your line there is ‘I wish’ (lacks punch). Here’s how you turn that into roleplays

      Me: Yeah it’s a beautiful day

      This is reward / and synch with her, ground what follows. Then reframe

      Me: Come and give me a massage

      This would normally be a call to action – but it’s not possible. It also ‘assumes’. The actions will happen in her mind with no direct application, so this generates energy inside of her that will stay there for a long time (can’t be dissipated)

      Me: Yeah it’s a beautiful day
      Me: Perfect for staying in bed having sex

      Here it’s a clear invitation, she’ll have the image, it can’t happen, same deal

      Me: Yeah it’s a beautiful day
      Me: It reminds me of [Location]
      Me: Have you been in the [Location]? we should go someday, you’d be doing [X] and I would be [Y]

      A call to action into the future, it’s not real, she’ll get the images and feelings

      Me: Yeah
      Me: If we had kids we’d be doing a picnic

      Here its ramping heavily into relationship territory, not applicable for this specific interaction but works as an example

      Me: It’s great, the night will be wonderful too
      Me: Come and we’ll go to the casino
      Me: We’ll spend all your family’s money and marry in Las Vegas

      More storytelling into the future, these are always fun

      ===========

      When you are in person however, you can actually play the roleplays. You can turn any joke or situation into something that is a physical game. For example you had that joke where you call her a coffee machine – roleplay it

      Me: Here’s a buck
      Her: What for?
      Me: I want my coffee
      Her: hahaha
      Me: (touching) Give it to me (carrying her) Im going to take you back to the shop and fix you

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/05/2018 at 5:59 pm

        It is clear now what roleplay means in this context. It is really much smaller than what I thought it would be and I was thinking of it requiring something much more complex in my mind.

        A simple two or three lines will do to create the roleplay.

        Reply
84. Factory says:

    06/07/2018 at 2:19 am

    BAD DATE

    I decided to be up front with this new girl last (Wed) night. She seemed mega keen, until I was honest/open with her – she asked if I lived alone.

    I told her my current living situation – still (temporarily) living with my ex while we sought out our property portfolio. I’m moving into one of my other properties in 8 weeks when the current lease ends. Anyway, it seemed to hit her with a tonne of bricks. Probably doesn’t help she works in family law…

    I think this was my first mistake (?). Other girls I haven’t mentioned this (either it hasn’t come up or I’ve said I live alone) and the dates have been great. Been fortunate as they’ve all lived close to the action, not with their parents and I’ve gone back to their place. Same with this girl – kicking myself now. You can actually walk to her apartment.

    She was processing this info throughout the date and it killed the vibe somewhat. I also said I wasn’t looking for another LTR (possibly second mistake?). She originally seemed aligned with this (24yo party girl). Then opened up later she’d like to “settle down now”, “hasn’t had a proper bf for 3 years” and said my situation is a “red flag” for her. I think she was pretty disappointed.

    There was one small opening (high point) where we were close and I tried to kiss her and she said “I’m not going to kiss you”. I didn’t escalate after that as felt a wall so just chilled and chatted til the end of the date.

    The next (third?) mistake – at the end of the date/as leaving I said – “we should go out again” she replied “yeah definitely, 100%” but her body language wasn’t really there and she turned her cheek when I went for a kiss goodnight.

    I understand the first point is messy heavy shit (just posting for context) so I don’t expect (but open to) advice on this. However on suggesting another date at the end of an average date – I get the feeling this is needy bottom guy shit (?). If this is the case, let me know and I’ll note for future ref. Also talking about not wanting a LTR – is this a bad idea?

    I want to bang this girl – so how do you suggest going forward? My thought is radio silence til next week (give her some space to process – I’ll work on other leads) and ping her then.

    Hit me Yohami and Flat Lander…

    Many thanks

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/07/2018 at 8:39 am

      She seemed mega keen, until I was honest

      X-)

      When a girl asks you something it’s always about her and her agenda. If she asks what’s your job she wants to know if you have enough money to support her. If she asks if you live alone she wants to know if your nest is available for her to move in and start the nesting process. If she asks if you have a girlfriend she wants to know if you’re a loner loser – and so on. All this is mostly instinct-driven and unconscious.

      And the other part of the equation is that answering ‘with the truth’ or answering at all also answers the major plot point of her interaction which is to find out if you’re top or bottom guy. Why? top guy wont give her the power, try to please her, or come forward with the ‘truth’ (rapport) and play along to whatever her plans is. The truth is that your money, living conditions, relationships are none of her fucking business. You’re not there to try to pass a test, you’re there to see if she’s fuckable and see if the sex is going to be fun and worth your time. So – by playing along even if you have all the right answers, you lose.

      This is why there’s no need for ‘boring rapport’ and why justifying to her and letting her be the judge of anything means you lose.

      In this case you had a double strike because you gave her bad news – she can’t just move in with you! and you’re not rich enough to live on your own right now! plus you have baggage living with an ex and not completely available (would be different if you’d be living with 5 girlfriends, try that line sometime), PLUS you’re playing along and being bottom guy by letting her trick you into being ‘honest’

      If you want to be honest you can go in hierarchy and say

      Me: why do you want to know? are you trying to move in with me?

      Which will maker her giggle. That’s both honest, and a wall. You can follow with

      Me: Im not ready to move in with anyone at the moment

      All the story about your ex – that’s you trying to justify yourself to her and none of her business. Unless you make a super story and want to share the crazy details and this is a type of girl who will find that arousing.

      The bottom line is you’re there doing sexual courtship – you’re not there to really meet someone and get to know them and embrace their truths.

      The proof is that there are ‘right and wrong’ answers for everything. She’s running a test, and doesn’t care about you the slightless. And she’s also not there to be honest, or she wouldn’t try to trick you, and she’d come forward about that other guy she fucked this morning, and how her ex is pinging her to come back, and how she’s broke and needs a man to pay for her shit, and how she’s secretely in love with her best friend’s husband and has been rubbing her tits on him whenever she can.

      I bet she didn’t mention any of it.

      Don’t let her judge you. She’s got no moral upperhand – ever.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/07/2018 at 8:52 am

      The right move was to tease her that she’s trying to move too fast and you want to get her to know her better before you talk about moving thing forward

      Then when she mentions she hasn’t had a proper boyfriend in the past 3 years

      Hold there and process that information – what does it mean? ‘proper’ signals that she’s actually be fucking guys, so she’s been a slut for 3 years banging random hot guys.

      It cracks me how any girl would think that’s a selling proposition.

      “hey I’ve been sucking random cock for 3 years and none of the guys think Im girlfriend material”

      At the same time you know she’s been pushing aside all these thirsty nice guys who would move the earth around just for a chance with her. So I’d tease her in both fronts

      Me: wow that’s a long time, so what’s wrong with you?

      Then

      Me: What about all the nice guys? Im sure you’ve got quite a few ready to marry you

      Then

      Me: Let’s get to know you more ;-)

      ========

      Or, there’s gotta be a reason for HER to be on her best behavior, and that will never happen as long as you’re the one trying to qualify to her. Nature rigged this to mean she’ll always be a bitch to inferior men = men who let her be in power in any circumstance.

      Reply
      • Factory says:

        06/07/2018 at 11:42 pm

        Some wicked red pill wisdom in there man. That knowledge vs the experience is a big lesson learned. Thanks for that.

        There’s still some beta nice guy inside me I need to purge.

        The context of her “do you live alone” was slightly different in that she was mirroring my question I had just asked her (checking logistics). I had it in my mind somewhere to answer that way as an experiment or “throw it out there” and see what happens (yeah fucking retarded – nb). Either way, the way you read it (truth) and her reaction did not help the seduction. It was a solo act, no dance = no sex.

        I fucking love the challenge of turning these mistakes around and banging them in the end. Therefore my course of action is no contact for a while (say a week?) then ping? How would you play it?

        Also, what’s your opinion suggesting another date at the end of that original one. Is that a bottom guy thing to do?

        Cheers bro

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/08/2018 at 12:00 am

          Ask her out like nothing had happened and bang her

          Reply
          • Factory says:

            06/08/2018 at 12:15 am

            love it :-)

            Reply
85. Lucretius says:

    06/07/2018 at 4:14 pm

    This is another online discussion that started from earlier in the week at the same time as pool side girl.

    Background: Cute girl with online profile. Can only see head with no background.

    My general headspace at the moment was not to overanalyze everything and just ‘go with the flow’ to prevent me from getting stuck down in ‘analysis paralysis’ and then debug everything afterwards.
    It has been a few hours already since her last response and it feels like it ends at the defined point (ie. no new responses expected). If she comes back, I will post again

    [~~~~~~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    [Line 01] Me : Hey ;-)

    //4 days later
    [Line 02] Her: Hello! Sorry i see the message only now ;)

    [Line 03] Me : haha … your cute but slow
    [Line 04] Her: what can i do… ;)

    [Line 05] Me : very good that you are already asking me what you can do ;-)
    [Line 06] Her: i just hope you won’t see in this conversation something what there’s not… ;P

    [Line 07] Me : yes … ofcourse …
    [Line 08] Me : so what’s up with you, goldilocks

    [~~~~~~~~~ Breakdown ~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    [Line 01] Me : Hey ;-)
    This is the standard opener

    [Line 02] Her: Hello! Sorry i see the message only now ;)
    She came back much later but had a smilie

    [Line 03] Me : haha … your cute but slow
    This came out instinctively. The ‘haha’ was me laughing at the situation which likely punished her (unintentionally)
    The “your cute but slow” was ‘pull-push’. It would of felt strange if I just continued with ‘Your cute’
    If this line would of been resent it would of been “Your cute but slow”

    [Line 04] Her: what can i do… ;)
    I didnt interpret this as a request and more an admission that ‘yes, I am slow’. In the moment, I went ‘out of context’ and framed it as sex in the next line

    [Line 05] Me : very good that you are already asking me what you can do ;-)
    This was the reframing her ‘yes, I am slow’ into sexual innuendo with flirt

    [Line 06] Her: i just hope you won’t see in this conversation something what there’s not… ;P
    Her response tells me that she is flirting (from her smilie) but at the same time she puts up a wall

    [Line 07] Me : yes … ofcourse …
    This was a stupid response from me as it (now) feels wrong on a few levels. In the moment, it felt like I couldnt progress the sexual frame further but something felt like I needed to ‘respond to her response’ hence the stupid response. I was trying to say “yes, whatever you say …”. This line feels wrong to me now for the following reasons:
    – I am interacting with her wall (unintentionally)
    – I am putting her on the spot
    – it also has the effect of me ‘backing down’

    The putting her on the spot is what I think was the greater problem because now she may feel the need to stop the discussion (likely reasons). This line in general should just not of been here at all.

    [Line 08] Me : so what’s up with you, goldilocks
    There was really nothing on which to continue the interaction from her wall. Given this, I tried to get her to add more to the conversation using “so what’s up with you”. I couldnt say any of the following:
    – What do you think of the drinks? – as she may or may not have been there before. Feels very rapport like.
    – Havent seen you before at the drinks blah blah – because this would be me ‘remembering + caring’
    If there is a suggested alternative way to move the interaction forward at this point, please suggest.

    On the ‘goldilocks’, she has curly blonde hair and in the moment, that is what came out (attempt at nickname)

    [~~~~~~~~~ Overall ~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    I think overall, the following is what may have caused the interaction to crash:
    – The “haha” from Line 03
    – The whole of Line 07
    – The nickname ‘goldilocks’

    Any thoughts / suggestions for the above and how it could of gone better?
    (If something was really shit / creepy / wtf / etc, please just say it)

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/07/2018 at 5:20 pm

      Cool so first thing, identify in that text:

      Where’s her level of investment at it’s peak?

      Here is she in compliance?

      Where do you reward the compliance?

      Where do you punish her compliance?

      Where do you reward her wall?

      Where do you go for asexual rapport?

      =====

      And

      Why is she talking to you?

      Where does she make her mind about you?

      And

      What do you want to happen in this interaction?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/07/2018 at 6:28 pm

        The following are my answers to the questions:

        Where’s her level of investment at it’s peak?
        I think this would be at:
        [Line 02] Her: Hello! Sorry i see the message only now ;)

        Reasons are:
        – she replied after a long period
        – she was apologizing to me (qualifying herself)
        – her opening message had a flirty smilie

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where is she in compliance?
        I see compliance on two lines:
        [Line 02] Her: Hello! Sorry i see the message only now ;)
        [Line 04] Her: what can i do… ;)

        Compliance on line 02 because she responded and is now playing
        Compliance on line 04 because she is reacting to me calling her ‘slow’

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where do you reward the compliance?
        Thinking about this, i cannot identify where I actually rewarded her.
        Perhaps I didnt reward her at all (the haha in line 03 i see as punishment in retrospect)

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where do you punish her compliance?
        I punished her (accidently) on the complete line below:
        [Line 03] Me : haha … your cute but slow

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where do you reward her wall?
        I did this on line 07:
        [Line 07] Me : yes … ofcourse …

        I was interacting with her wall which is effectively rewarding her wall

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where do you go for asexual rapport?
        This I did on my last line (in trying to get more from her to continue the interaction)
        [Line 08] Me : so what’s up with you, goldilocks

        I could of perhaps also gone silent after line 06 and see if she would fill in the gaps

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Why is she talking to you?
        She must like what she sees (photo) and also the flirt opening “Hey ;-)”

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        Where does she make her mind about you?
        I would say at line 06
        [Line 06] Her: i just hope you won’t see in this conversation something what there’s not… ;P

        [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
        What do you want to happen in this interaction?
        I want to tease her to see if she gets aroused. If yes, then progress to getting her out for sex

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/07/2018 at 10:55 pm

          Ok good. So the most important observation there is she presented ‘compliance’ multiple times, and you never rewarded it.

          Every time the girl goes in compliance she’s aroused, and there’s where you need to be paying attention (I keep repeating this, because THIS is the key) so you can ‘double down’ there and escalate.

          Instead, every time she went in compliance, you teased. All these teases are punishing her compliance, so of course she moves backward instead of moving forward, and gave you a wall.

          And then you rewarded the wall.

          So that’s the pattern – you’re punishing compliance and rewarding walls.

          The fix for you is learn to identify compliance in real time so you can reward it. And Then learn to punish walls.

          ==================================

          
          [Line 01] Me : Hey ;-)
          

          Good.

          
          //4 days later
          [Line 02] Her: Hello! Sorry i see the message only now ;)
          

          Likely she saw the hey and didn’t give it importance, then your lack of chase pinged her interest, checked your profile, found you to be good looking, got all tingly, comes fully DTF (a constant with all your girls), with apologies, smileys and exclamations.

          This is behavior you want so you need to reward it

          Me: It’s ok
          Me: How are you?

          The it’s ok is basic reward and giving her validation, the how are you sounds like rapport but this will give her just enough space to talk so she tells me how to fuck her

          [Line 03] Me : haha … your cute but slow

          You didn’t reward her compliance here, even though it was clearly on the table, instead you neg her. The ‘haha’ is weak – learn to laugh only when they say jokes. ‘haha’ is high reward and it dissipates tension. But what are you laughing about here?

          “you’re cute” that’s free validation for her looks – but she just gave you compliance with means she’s offering you her vagina

          “you’re slow” That’s a neg. All in all, this could be fine if you are going to lead this somewhere. Where will you lead this to? are you going to ask her to be faster?

          You lose right now in her eyes for having missed the window

          
          [Line 04] Her: what can i do… ;)

          You didn’t take her compliance, this has less investment than before, she starts to roll back, but still flirting, you can still take her.

          
          [Line 05] Me : very good that you are already asking me what you can do ;-)

          Thats your third tease in a row. This is you ‘doing your thing’ and not paying attention to her. You CAN use her line and your framing to lead somewhere

          Me: You can buy me a beer ;-)

          But right there you’re kind of reframing her and punishing. The ramp is a little weird in that you started more heavily flirting when she just set a mini wall

          All your lines are flirting and increasing – hey (flirt), cute (flirt), reward for asking me what to do (sort of a sexual reframe, flirt again). push push push. What are you expecting she’ll do?

          
          [Line 06] Her: i just hope you won’t see in this conversation something what there’s not… ;P

          Now that’s a wall, signed with a little flirt at the end. So she’s into you but has no idea of where you’re going with this. You’re supposed to lead. What do you want?

          The “buy me a beer” would have done it

          [Line 07] Me : yes … ofcourse …

          Here’s where you lose. She offered compliance and you punished, now she offered you a wall and you fully embrace it.

          Go back and identity compliance so you can embrace that. To this wall bullshit, just bypass it and interact with the flirty signature at the end

          Me: ;-)
          Me: have no idea what you’re talking about
          Me: Do you want to somewhere for a drink or hang out?

          
          [Line 08] Me : so what’s up with you, goldilocks

          Here you switch to asexual rapport. So you were flirty flirty flirty push push push, she started with compliance but you missed the window and kept pushing, she gives you a wall, which you embrace, then you switch to asexual rapport like you bounced from that wall like you’re a ball and she has the power to make you do things.

          All in that very short interaction.

          Her libido went from 100 to 40. You can still bang her because you’re good looking and she was DTF with minimal investment.

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/07/2018 at 11:07 pm

          I want to tease her to see if she gets aroused. If yes, then progress to getting her out for sex

          She was aroused after the “hey ;-)”

          When she’s aroused you have to reward and escalate.

          Whenever she goes in compliance / is aroused you need to stop increasing the tension and reward her. These are your stepping stones. That’s how you punctuate the dance – reward good behavior. If she doesn’t receive validation, she’ll start pulling the brakes.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/08/2018 at 6:53 am

            Thanks for the feedback. Below is further “mental state at time” and also a few clarifications requested.

            The feedback is showing me a few things that I felt were off which is concentrated here:

            Me: It’s ok
            Me: How are you?
            The it’s ok is basic reward and giving her validation, the how are you sounds like rapport but this will give her just enough space to talk so she tells me how to fuck her

            The above response is ironically what I would of done before “having heard about game” as in my mind it would of been “its ok, you here now. How are things?” but then I would of gone into asexual rapport and stayed there.

            An issue that I have observed with myself is that I am “jumping to extremes”. I am either going full rapport or full tease or full jerk like moving a slider on a mixing board from 0-10 in one sweep. In your proposed responses, it is more a small change into each direction and continuing into that direction if she does hahahaha or not. This piece of feedback should help me remain ‘more balanced’ later today instead of teasing, teasing, teasing, teasing.

            ‘haha’ is high reward and it dissipates tension. But what are you laughing about here?
            “you’re slow” That’s a neg. All in all, this could be fine if you are going to lead this somewhere. Where will you lead this to? are you going to ask her to be faster?
            This was me reacting because of ‘shy girl’ where she called me slow. In my mind, I was thinking that she would say “I be fast as lightning now” but this was me misunderstanding where this could go.

            “you’re cute” that’s free validation for her looks – but she just gave you compliance with means she’s offering you her vagina
            Is this a rule in that if she is giving compliance, I must not validate her? Or perhaps stated inversely, if she is in non-compliance (or weak compliance) then I validate her (a little) to get more compliance?

            [Line 04] Her: what can i do… ;)
            You didn’t take her compliance, this has less investment than before, she starts to roll back, but still flirting, you can still take her.
            This was likely an issue from another girl I had text interaction with where she asked me the same thing and somewhere along the line I asked if she could cook to make up (so bad a line) and got back cryptic answer. The simple solution of “You can buy me a beer ;-)” would of worked wonders.

            Thats your third tease in a row. This is you ‘doing your thing’ and not paying attention to her.
            This is the “embodiment” of the issue where I am jumping from extreme to extreme as mentioned earlier.

            
            All your lines are flirting and increasing – hey (flirt), cute (flirt), reward for asking me what to do (sort of a sexual reframe, flirt again). push push push. What are you expecting she’ll do?
            I would guess that my expectation in the moment would be that she would escalate back but this just didnt happen.

            
            Now that’s a wall, signed with a little flirt at the end. So she’s into you but has no idea of where you’re going with this. You’re supposed to lead. What do you want?
            I completely missed this but was thinking ‘poolside girl response’ at the time.

            Me: ;-)
            Me: have no idea what you’re talking about
            Me: Do you want to somewhere for a drink or hang out?
            Didnt think I could just say “have no idea what you’re talking about” to the wall even though as I read it now, it seems so simple

            [Line 08] Me : so what’s up with you, goldilocks
            Here you switch to asexual rapport.
            Here I was trying to get her to talk some more to give me the information on how to fuck her. Given the pre-context, it is all in the wrong place (ie. it should of been much earlier and toned down without the nickname).

            Whenever she goes in compliance / is aroused you need to stop increasing the tension and reward her.
            When you say ‘tension’ are you referring to me to stop teasing her (for the moment)?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/08/2018 at 8:37 am

              The teasings are spikes in tension – that’s why they are ‘invitations to react’.

              The point is to tease to make her react, then take her reaction and go somewhere else. That’s how you lead.

              When you ping her with the ‘hey ;-)’ that’s a flirt, which is a tease (you want her reaction. When she reacts, you need to fully acknowledge that response and do something there and escalate

              When you do a neg or a funny tease (no compassion example, or coffee machine, or 50 cents for a blowjob) and she goes ‘hahahaha’ that’s a major reaction that you need to double or triple tag before settling things down and going somewhere else. Every time she reacts strongly to something, take note, because these are her arousal spots and:

              These don’t change.

              =======

              When you said hi and she came all flirty she was kinda dorky and apologetic about it – this is not an ‘alpha girl’. She’s reacting strongly to a small flirt and you talking to her.

              See what she’s reacting to? a small flirt and you talking to her.

              So you ‘double down’

              You keep talking to her and flirt here and there. Then you tease later again in a new direction or tell a mini story or a little call to action and see where she’s at, then you can lead her all the time.

              So it’s not tease tease tease tease tease push push push push, and she won’t ‘escalate’ in the same manner you’re doing unless she’s got a dick and a pair of balls and is doing masculine dance.

              What she will do to escalate things is

              SHOW COMPLIANCE

              What girls to do progress the dance is

              PLAY ALONG

              And what you do to progress is to

              TAKE THEIR COMPLIANCE

              Reward their compliance

              Then keep leading

              Let me know if you see it

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/08/2018 at 8:56 am

                I see what you mean.

                The above has a key piece of “mechanics” that I was not previously understanding. I need to re-read it a few times over the coming days to get it to stick.

                It also explains why when I am ‘doing my solo thing’ it goes nowhere because I am not following the ‘dance’ (literally) and eventually girl just disconnects.

                There is a mix of the girls that I am interacting with:
                – some are ‘alpha’ in that they ‘raise me’ like we are playing poke (eg. troublemaker, polish)
                – some are ‘beta’ in that they are ‘docile’ and want to play along (eg. Bulgarian, goldilocks)

                I would imagine that my initial openers would remain largely the same unless there is something specific being communicated from the girl (photo or behaviour in person). From there I would need to adjust depending on how she responds / behaves.

                Thinking about the above ‘dance’ and the bulgarian, I would expect that she would be more docile and I need to pay attention to this when she is playing along or not. If she plays along, I just need to be ‘normal’ which will reward her by default and lead the conversation somewhere and also flirt in the process. If she does not play along, then I could tease to get her to react and play along and go from there.

                I start to see what you mean in that one cannot preplan anything in this regarding because it is all dynamic on what the girl is going to be doing at any given moment. In summary again, the only thing that I can ‘plan’ for the Bulgarian is:
                – Going to see her for sex
                – Two hour window in total
                – Sex location is her apartment (or nothing)

                The rest is all in the moment as it flows along.

86. BlueValentine says:

    06/07/2018 at 9:46 pm

    Yohami, I think this would be useful for us all and an important section of your book:

    Could you please explain Frame Clash? Why it is bad. And what to do to respond without leading to frame clash?

    Many people imagine Frame Clash is Alpha. And it’s a natural way for many clueless bottom guys.

    So writing something deeper about it and how to avoid it and why it’s a problem will be very valuable.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/07/2018 at 10:36 pm

      Can you explain what’s alpha about frame clash?

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        06/08/2018 at 7:28 am

        It shows defiance. It shows you’re not afraid to be disliked. Or as Jordan Peterson talks about, it shows the ability to be Disagreeable. That you’re okay with losing that girl or ending the interaction.

        However, it also starts a game where the other person’s pride demands they also disagree with you. And the result is often a frame clash that ends up in neither of you getting what you want.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/08/2018 at 8:30 am

          it shows defiance

          What are you interact with – a wall, or an opening? her rejection of something, or her approval of something? does this feel easy, or hard?

          it shows defiance

          Does it feel to you as if you’re dealing with something with more power than you, same power as you, less power as you, or now power at all?

          it shows defiance

          How would you be behaving in a situation where you have all the power and she has none?

          Let me know what you see

          Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/08/2018 at 9:51 am

          Defiance dictionary definition

          “open resistance; bold disobedience.”

          Resistance an disobedience – are you dealing with a superior, or an inferior?

          Reply
          • BlueValentine says:

            06/08/2018 at 10:37 am

            That was a very good answer indeed.

            Reply
87. Flat Lander says:

    06/08/2018 at 11:40 am

    @L

    There is a mix of the girls that I am interacting with:
    – some are ‘alpha’ in that they ‘raise me’ like we are playing poke (eg. troublemaker, polish)
    – some are ‘beta’ in that they are ‘docile’ and want to play along (eg. Bulgarian, goldilocks)

    There are differences between girls, but a lot of their behaviour is a function of your attitude and actions. They become bitchy when they perceive weakness and lack of calibration (missing openings and escalating walls)..

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/08/2018 at 12:04 pm

      Yeah – the alpha girls will also show compliance and walls. Your behavior with both will be pretty identical in terms of tease, flirt, reward, escalation, etc.

      Just that the beta girls will be showing compliance sooner (if they like you) while the alpha girls will go down (heh) after a fight

      Reply
88. Lucretius says:

    06/08/2018 at 6:08 pm

    Just came back from bulgarian. Short answer is that nothing happened.

    The following is the breakdown:

    Headed out on the way and in getting nearby, the following chat occurred:

    [~~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~~~~~~]
    Me : Hey sexy pants [emojie wink]
    Her: [emojie blush smilie] hey [Lucretius]

    // This is at 12:44
    Me : On my way to [shop name which is meeting point]
    Me : See you there
    Her: Ok

    //At 13:10 where meeting was at 13:00 and I was on time
    Me : text me when you here. I browsing shop

    // The shop is a big shop (think department store) with multiple levels. I was walking around seeing stuff and is was already 13:20 and still nothing and I am getting fed up.
    // I ask someone at the counter where the closest bar is and off I am on my way [I remember reading this from Krauser and is something I found good]

    //At 13:22
    Her: I am here
    Her: Where are you?
    Her: But i am inside

    Me : I just left
    Me : Now at here
    Me : [Send photo of bar]

    Her: Ok
    Her: Coming

    [~~End Chat~~]

    I am outside the bar and looking at my phone and she sees me and we say hi. I motioned over to give her a kiss on the cheek and she accepted it but I could sense subtle surprise from her on this

    I took her insider and I asked for a table for two and we got a place in the back. it was a small table with 3 chairs. I took the seat where I could see more of the room and told her to sit to my left instead of infront of me. She asked why and I said so we can talk easier. From my side, i just wanted her to the side of me rather than opposing me but also give me freedom to look around the room. I sat down and then the waitress came. I ordered a beer and asked the bulgarian if she wanted the same. She looked at the waitress and said cappuccino (this was the telling sign that I was looking for to know where she was at).

    The “how are you?” discussion started and it went very quickly into rapport where she was talking about work, life, travelling, the beer I was drinking, blah blah. I even found myself sucked into this because as I was following her topics (I landed up following without thinking). Here I could really feel that the energy was becoming “best friends” kind of energy (ie. friendzone). But somewhere in her discussion where she was talking about her work and how she couldnt take it and gave notice (restaurant or something) and that she took the two days off to just relax. At this point, I mentioned something to the sort of “yes, it is good to relax and get out once in a while and party”. She then came back on this and said that it what she was doing in the past two days – partying. I noticed her smile light up in talking about partying and then the connection was made (she is a party girl). The conversation moved somewhere back to travelling and I said:

    Me : Have you been to Ibiza?
    Her: No but I would like to go.

    Me : It is a great party island. Also the Greek islands. Reminds me of my earlier days (<25y) when I use to go to underground parties. blah blah blah. house parties now are better as everything else is commercial. blah blah blah. Always good to just get a few friends together and just chill to music with everyone drinking and doing as they want. blah blah blah.

    At the above point (was not a DHV story but just something that came out naturally), she was totally different girl and she was smiling and giggling as I was telling me story of the things I was doing back then. She was also then jumping in and telling me of some of the things she did (nothing crazy) in various countries as she was travelling. I was also flirting with her as I was checking her out and said “yes you look good”. She smiled on this. I would be flirting with her from time to time throughout the meetup.

    The major lesson here is that if I just let the girl talk, she is definitely going to drive it all the way down to DEEP DEEP RAPPORT and this will kill any sexual energy. The conversation was ongoing from there and I could feel that there were “two girl personalities” that I was speaking to:
    – The prim and proper girl who wants to be a nice female friend
    – The real feral girl underneath

    It is like a standard line of RAPPORT that the girls talk through and it goes nowhere (already seen many times). What I did notice is that when the girl said something that I could use to change the conversation, I would cut her off mid sentence and start speaking (ie. I was LITERALLY BREAKING RAPPORT both in her talk and in her topics). When I started to talk about the partying topic and also the good times I had with friends years back, she was smiling and giggling and had a completely new energy. It is as though the girl is using RAPPORT as a socially acceptable front and it is for me as the guy to move past the front and discover what is behind (in Yohami speak, this must be pinging her desire). If I dont, then I will be so deep into rapport that it is all over.

    The waitress came back and asked if I wanted anything to eat. I said no as we not staying long. When I said this, the bulgarian reacted on it and looked away to the side. I dont know if her interpretation was clear that I came for sex or if she was concerned that I was losing interest. Somewhere not long after this, I asked about her place and I wanted to see it. She then told me that she told me when we met that she lives just outside the city (ie. there is no sex location where we at). I obviously misunderstood this from the past and so what I thought was a ‘fuck date’ was actually a ‘I want to know you’ date from her side.

    The conversation continued and then she asked how I liked the beer (I was almost finished). it was good and then she suggested that this other place nearby has nice beers too and that is where she likes to go. I said, sounds good, lets go. There was a little bit more discussion for 5 min or so and then we got up. I went to pay for the beer + coffee and she was asking if we are going to cut it. I said nah and just covered it. She then said, at the next place she pays for the beers. For general note to Yohami + FlatLander, I dont spend more than a few bucks on a girl and it is for coffee / drinks only and even here it is only when it is just me and the girl. If at general drink, girls pays her own.

    We then went walking to the other bar area. I again asked for a table for two and got something with couches. Bulgarian went to the toilet and I ordered beers. This time she also wanted a beer. When she came back, I told her to sit near me again but here she was resisting and put a bit more distance between her and me saying she “could see me better” from the distance. Nonsense but ok.

    The conversation continued again (she said she liked this bar because it was quieter than the other one and she couldnt hear me properly in the other one) and now it was her wanting to know more about me and my background. I gave a small story on it and sensing it was going to enter rapport again, I tried to move it elsewhere. She put it back into my background and she asked why I wouldnt go back to my home country. For some reason, I said that it is because things are kinda difficult there but that I also just dont like the girls from there and that I like the girls from europe that I met throughout my travels. At this point, she stopped asking me about background and was straight onto me and the girls I been with.

    I SENSE A PATTERN WITH GIRLS ON THIS AND HOW TO BREAK THIS RAPPORT!!!

    She somehow started on height of girls and that she was happy with her height (1.7m), i confirmed it was a good height (ie. shorter than me at 1.78m) and then she went off in the direction of some of her Bulgarian friends being too short (1.6m) and how she felt strange going out with them. Somehow this topic then jumped to me talking about how I just dont like the drama from spanish girls. She was then trying to tell me girl drama is normal but I said the spanish girl drama is not normal and I dont get this drama from girls of other places. She then says that maybe I just go strange girls, and I said maybe. Then I started talking about a holiday that one girl arranged for me to visit another country with a female host and how it was awesome to go see the mountains (true travel story).

    Somehow the conversation moved into dating between guys + girls and then I told a story of a girl I was once seeing (no naughty details) where I would go see her (out of town) and would stay from Fri until Sun and she would cook for me (true again). The bulgarian girl said that normally the guy cooks for the girl. I responded that in my case, the girls are cooking for me (true again) which I then kicked off into roleplay if she can cook for me. She said no. I lowered the bar and said can you at least pour a beer? She said yes. I said thats ok. She then said “Well I can cook and impress a guy but only after a while and with you it is too soon” (ie. backing away from her earlier answer). This moved the conversation again around this topic of dating, girls, guys. Every time she would giggle on something, I was instinctively saying something immediately afterwards and she would giggle a bit more. Somewhere along she started talking about her “good guy friends” and I said that is good for her. She then asked me if I had “female friends”. I said yeah sure. She then followed on with but as just in friends not involving getting naked or things like that (her words). I said, very few (true). A bit more backwards and forward on this.

    She wanted to know my zodiac sign and I was being a bit evasive (I could of teased her a bit more) and giving her only tiny details at the time. I came up with a roleplay of why she wanted me birthday and if she was going to make a voodoo doll and tickle at in approriate times. I was acting it out a little bit and she giggles on this but then said that she didnt know what voodoo was. Eventually I told her my zodiac and she didnt believe me so she wanted to see my ID to check the date of birth. I took that and said “if you want to see my ID, dress up in a police uniform and show me some cleavage and then pretend like you pulled me over and are asking for my id”. She giggled here again and said that is not going to happen in a teasing way. More backwards and forward on the topics.

    I was motioning her to come sit closer by patting the space next to me and she was resisting but after some doubling down on her giggles, I said something and she came closer (with a smile on her face like she was having fun). To reward her i leaned to her side while seated to get my wallet out to get the ID. In the leaning, I then was able to put my arm around her waist she immediately put her hand on mine as she was thinking I was going to feel her ass (which I wasnt). From this I straightened myself up, took my hand off and we continued talking. Seeing my birthdate she then started telling me that some of her best friends are born on the same day of the month blah blah blah. I talked it up with something or other and there was some more backwards and forward on something else.

    There was a bit of backwards and forwards around and she went to the topic of terrace (my original text message – where i screwed up). I said that as it is now sunny, it is nice to have a drink on the terrace where I am at. She then said something to the effect that it would be nice to do that sometime. I said “come tomorrow”. She said “Cant as I am working”. I then said “Text me when you free”. She then said “maybe next week and if you available”. I said “text me and we see”. I was semi-conscious (the beer working on my head) of taking the opportunities and not clashing with her. The conversation then went somewhere else into something or other that I dont remember.

    This was a pattern where every time I would try to escalate physically, she would take a step back and shy away from it. I already had a very distinct impression from the first bar that I was being interviewed as potential boyfriend material (ie. make him wait) but my complete demeanor, attire and frame was sex oriented and in no way saying “I am looking for a girlfriend”. She nonetheless kept the physical distance and eventually it was time for me to leave at 15:00.

    We walked a little bit to where I would go my own way and then I leaned in to kiss her good bye on the cheek. She leaned back heavily but still allowed the cheek kiss (first time I ever had this from a girl). I didnt mention anything but it was clear to me that she did not want to get physical – dont know why but also none of my business. But verbally she was enjoying everything and all the interaction and smiling and giggling throughout the 1.5h we spent together after I had literally broken the Rapport.

    Nearly 40min later the following text chat happens (she opens):

    [~~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~~~~~~]
    Her: It was nice to see you again [Lucretius].. next time will be probably [your city location] [emojie wink]
    Me : [emojie wink] see you then

    Her: Hope you are patient enough [emojie lipstick kiss]
    Me : [emojie wink] //I didnt know what else to reward with so I went with this. Suggestions welcome.

    [~~~ End Chat ~~~]

    What I can clearly see from the above is that she is seeing me as potential boyfriend (her whole interaction) but I am not giving off the boyfriend vibe in any way.
    From her last messages she can see that I am not investing further into her from first bar and have been and am interacting with other girls.
    Honestly from my side, I am losing interest as time goes by and dont want to put much focus on her (she likely going through all manner of shit in her life and this is none of my business)

    From my standpoint, there is nothing for me todo and therefore NO CHASE indefinitely.
    She either comes back to me next week or not but from my side is closed (ie. I wont open her any more)

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/08/2018 at 6:15 pm

      She then said something to the effect that it would be nice to do that sometime. I said “come tomorrow”. She said “Cant as I am working”. I then said “Text me when you free”. She then said “maybe next week and if you available”. I said “text me and we see”.

      I just realize that the above is rewarding wall and punishing compliance but it is how it went after 2 beers in my head. It should of gone as:

      Me : Come tomorrow

      Her: Cant as I am working
      Me : too bad

      Her: Maybe next week and if you available
      Me : next week can work

      What was going through my head at the time wasn’t compliance / non-compliance but when I suggested “tomorrow” I was just reacting to say “ok, text when you know” in a flippant “whatever” response. She then backed down and gave me “next week” and I was moving away still punishing the “cant as I am working”.

      The above is something I have to fix for the next in person interaction with any girl.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/08/2018 at 6:39 pm

        Given that this was in person and also over a bar, she could of misheard “Text me when you free” for “Tell me when you free”.

        Still would of been better as above.

        Reply
89. Flat Lander says:

    06/08/2018 at 9:37 pm

    @L
    Re: Bulgarian

    Actually quite a lot happened.

    She has her lovers sorted (she’s been partying i.e. getting fucked during the two days before your date), so she’s looking for a provider. You are playing right into her hand by doing a shit ton of nice huy stuff:

    Why?
    1. A lover has sex logistics sorted. By relying on her to sort out the logistics (which she didn’t), you signal “nice guy”, “he travels to my area, so he wants to get to know me, I’ll make him wait”
    2. You let her bounce you to a second location. Big failure to lead on your part.
    3. You are meeting in the middle of the day. Really suboptimal to make things sexy.
    4. You don’t arouse her enough, you don’t insult her enough, you don’t lead her enough.
    5. “Hope you are patient enough”: she is signalling DIRECTLY that she is making you wait. You are completely in her frame right now.

    Escalation:
    Probably too much push (rewards, compliments, cold and timid kino), not enough takeaway/pull away). This reinforces the impression of a thirsty nice guy.

    Note: a girl uncomfortable with a kiss on the cheek is a huge red flag.

    Arousal
    Good job on the Ibiza thing. You should have doubled down on that and made it sexual to arouse her.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/08/2018 at 10:10 pm

      She has her lovers sorted (she’s been partying i.e. getting fucked during the two days before your date), so she’s looking for a provider.

      This could be very real. As I am in all sorts of states over the past 3 weeks, I am not surprised if I am coming across as incongruent in many ways.

      On the individual points:
      1. A lover has sex logistics sorted. By relying on her to sort out the logistics (which she didn’t), you signal “nice guy”, “he travels to my area, so he wants to get to know me, I’ll make him wait”
      This part was as it was on the logistics and I was travelling near the area.
      There is a limit to how much I am going to sort out to bang her. There is really only two places for sex: either her place or mine. I am not going to rent a room, back alley, car, etc. It is not me and I am not desperate to bang this girl (or any girl) that I am going todo all these things. People may think what they want.

      2. You let her bounce you to a second location. Big failure to lead on your part.
      I don’t see it the same way. She wanted to move to another place from where I was. Arguing with her on this just for me to stay where I am is no point. As I haven’t been to her area before I don’t have a feel for what there is there either (scoping in advance is MAJOR investment on my part and just not worth it). While she made the suggestion, I still lead us there, arranged the drinks, got the seats, etc (ie. I lead in all the ways that I could except picking a location)

      3. You are meeting in the middle of the day. Really suboptimal to make things sexy.
      It was what it was. I am not going to spend a night in her area “on the chance of sex”. Much better for me to stay where I am at with girls everywhere around me. If I was to really go out of my way to travel to her area at night, this would communicate thirst.

      4. You don’t arouse her enough, you don’t insult her enough, you don’t lead her enough.
      I got a lot of hahahaha and giggles once I broke from the rapport. The leading part I did do but this is always a point for debate. Insulting her without cause (ie punishing) doesn’t make sense.

      5. “Hope you are patient enough”: she is signalling DIRECTLY that she is making you wait. You are completely in her frame right now.
      On her signaling that she wants to make me wait, I 100% agree with you here. On me being in her frame, I am 100% disagreement with you as my interest in her is at 10% and I just am not going to open her via text. She is either opening me and then coming to me for sex or nothing happens. If she comes up and we have good time (hahahaha and giggles from her) but then she doesn’t want sex on the same night, then I tell her that “I am busy coming weeks” (ie it is over).

      Probably too much push (rewards, compliments, cold and timid kino), not enough takeaway/pull away). This reinforces the impression of a thirsty nice guy.
      – too much rewards – no, I was not rewarding her over and over and was actively disinterested at times to where she changed the topic
      – compliments – very few. If I take a number, didn’t go over 3 compliments over 1.5h
      – cold and timid kino – no again. I wasn’t feeling cautious or weird in touching her so this isn’t it but she was keeping physical distance
      – not enough takeaway / pull away – could be something here but need to get better understanding of what you mean here

      Note: a girl uncomfortable with a kiss on the cheek is a huge red flag.
      This was a first for me from the many many girls I have kissed on the cheek. It definitely did trigger my ‘WTF?!’ radar in my mind. So something definitely going on in the background – not my business in what is going on but it has unsettled me to the point that I am thinking of just deleting the number and that be that – will see how I feel tomorrow on this.

      Either way, was a good experience to just go out there and iterate.

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/09/2018 at 5:23 am

        1. A lover has sex logistics sorted. […]
        This part was as it was on the logistics and I was travelling near the area.
        There is a limit to how much I am going to sort out to bang her. There is really only two places for sex: either her place or mine. I am not going to rent a room, back alley, car, etc. It is not me and I am not desperate to bang this girl (or any girl) that I am going todo all these things. People may think what they want.

        Our beliefs limit us in many ways. You will lose a shitload of lays by not optimizing your logistics or expecting the girl to think about this.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/09/2018 at 6:43 am

          Logistics in my city area are always sorted – ie. my own place always in good order.
          Logistics for out of town is something else.

          Either way, noted.

          Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/09/2018 at 5:36 am

        You let her bounce you to a second location. Big failure to lead on your part.
        I don’t see it the same way. She wanted to move to another place from where I was.

        Your next milestone will be learning to say NO to girls JUST BECAUSE.
        They get wet for guys who do not let themselves be led from place to place.
        At least you can make her work for it, i.e. make her jump through a hoop first before you agree (have her kiss you, show a bit of her bra or flash her knickers).

        Arguing with her on this just for me to stay where I am is no point. As I haven’t been to her area before I don’t have a feel for what there is there either (scoping in advance is MAJOR investment on my part and just not worth it).

        Damn, boy, entitled much? Your ego/laziness is getting in the way of dicking these sluts.

        While she made the suggestion, I still lead us there, arranged the drinks, got the seats, etc (ie. I lead in all the ways that I could except picking a location)
        Please pay attention. it’s not about picking a location. It’s about making the decision to move from where you are.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/09/2018 at 6:41 am

          Noted

          Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/09/2018 at 5:50 am

        “Hope you are patient enough”: she is signalling DIRECTLY that she is making you wait. You are completely in her frame right now.
        On her signaling that she wants to make me wait, I 100% agree with you here. On me being in her frame, I am 100% disagreement with you as my interest in her is at 10% and I just am not going to open her via text.

        What you think is irrelevant. It’s what you do and how she reacts to this that matters.
        You were compliant enough with her frame (travelled to her area, did not call her out on her reluctance about the cheek kiss, let her bounce you to a second location, creepy kino) for her to signal that she is making you wait.

        Why on earth are you spending two hours of your time on a girl that gives you a 10% erection?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/09/2018 at 6:46 am

          Before meeting up with her, my interest was at 80%. After meeting with her it was at 10%. This morning it is at -20%. When she contacts back, I end it there and then.

          Reply
90. Flat Lander says:

    06/09/2018 at 5:14 am

    This could be very real. As I am in all sorts of states over the past 3 weeks, I am not surprised if I am coming across as incongruent in many ways.

    This is a major milestone for you, L. You are starting to see the links between your vibe, attitude, behaviour and girls’ reactions.

    They are repulsed by any signs of weakness, doubt, vulnerability, hesitation. That’s why being irrationally confident is such a pussy magnet.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/09/2018 at 6:47 am

      Noted

      Reply
91. BlueValentine says:

    06/09/2018 at 9:28 am

    Yohami, about this:

    Just that the beta girls will be showing compliance sooner (if they like you) while the alpha girls will go down (heh) after a fight

    I think you hit a deep issue on the nail.

    Many of us crash against walls because we EXPECT the fight that you mentioned to be part of the courtship process. But maybe we don’t understand that fight properly.

    So is the fight putting a mix of walls and openings. And the end of the fight is showing almost full compliance with rare walls? (Unless the girl is turned on by the fight, then she’ll continue it indefinitely.)

    Because thinking about it, in my mind, the Fight is when the girl puts wall after wall and you overcome them. Because if you’re only going for openings, there isn’t any fight at all.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/09/2018 at 10:19 am

      The ‘fight’ consists on she trying to frame you as a bottom guy, and getting aroused very visibly every time you snap her out of it. She will escalate your teases, she’ll try to corner you on situation, she’ll put you on the spot, she’ll compare you openly against other men, pit you against other men, for the spectacle and the giggles – she’ll lead, command, break rapport, etc with more dexterity that you usually see on top men (because girls have more abundance and room to practice)

      But it’s not this:

      the Fight is when the girl puts wall after wall and you overcome them

      A wall is a wall and an opening is still an opening, and you don’t “overcome walls”

      Walls are not ramps are not doors are not things to be overcome. Your job is not to do stuff with walls. That’s bottom guy and only has one ending, which is you down, chewed up and out.

      The ‘fight’ means the girl really enjoys the tease / dominance play, she gets more dominant when in presence of a dominant guy – the ‘tingle’ maker her go harder before she goes soft, imagine she’s having an erection, she wants to bounce that clit against your cock and see who wins. Along with it she’ll still be getting aroused which means her femininity will win her over and she’ll escalate sexually if you’re not going fast enough. Girls are hungry.

      The fight is never she setting barriers and walls that you must jump over and overcome and keep pushing until she surrenders. That’s how bottom guy sees courtship which means he never gets laid, and when he does so it’s rape.

      Reply
92. YOHAMI says:

    06/09/2018 at 10:25 am

    Lucretius,

    Thanks for the report – lots of stuff there and I agree it’s a good milestone for you as in you’re paying more attention and detecting stuff. Good experience.

    Like Flatlander says, the kino you describe is creepy. Can you tell why? check the instances where you’re talking about it, see what you find. I’ll break it down later.

    Also re: leadership. Check in every instance when a decision was made, who was the initiator, the decider? from location to having drinks to how far things go to what is done and when.

    And about the ‘two girls’: You’re getting it.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/09/2018 at 10:55 am

      On the kino, I am not understanding where it would be creepy. From the interaction there was:
      – Social kiss hello on the cheek (should I just not do this at all unless she initiates?)
      – I put my hand on her waist. Perhaps the leaning forward is the problem like I am stretching myself (am I missing something?)
      – Social kiss goodbbye on the cheek (should I just not do this at all unless she initiates?)

      A few pointers here on kino in general would be appreciated as it is starting to feel like I am missing major things.
      I could also consider her keeping the physical distance as a wall and me always trying to interact with the wall (ie. trying to close the distance)

      On the leadership part, the decisions were made at the following points:
      – I initated contact to meet up (I lead, she following)
      – She agreed but specified the location (She lead, I follow but as the context was sex date, I interpret that this was near her place which was totally wrong)
      – She was not at the shop at the relevant time so I went to bar where she follows me (I lead, she follows)
      – She starts the rapport topics (she leads discussion, I following)
      – She wants to move to new bar and I agree (She leads, I follow because I agree)
      – I try to escalate, she declines through physical distance and leaning back (ie. she is controlling the escalation)
      – She then says ‘sex’ when she at my city area next (she leads, I am following or at minimum not punishing her)

      What I see in the above is that it was a battle for leadership during the time I spent with her. Are there other points that I missed?

      Thinking about this, I would say that my head space at the time was not to punish compliance and reward walls and so I was going along with the ‘flow’ but this likely caused the major issues.

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        06/09/2018 at 4:52 pm

        Thinking about this, I would say that my head space at the time was not to punish compliance and reward walls and so I was going along with the ‘flow’ but this likely caused the major issues.

        Oh man, I have the same problem, where going with the flow makes me end up punishing compliance and rewarding walls.

        I remember I heard someone say that your behavior is not yours, it’s someone else controlling you: it comes from what you heard or watched on TV or have been told by your mother.

        Really, thinking about this: when going with the flow, you’re not just doing random shit.

        You’re doing things that seem “correct”. Well, correct by what standard? Correct because they fit the imprint you have about how to behave when escalating.

        Those imprints are Bottom Guy and they come from previous programming, from what you have absorbed from social conditions, and from not being in a positions of Top Guy.

        This is for me as much as it is for you Lucretius, you’re not alone.

        So we have to understand that doing Top Guy responses will feel, at first, “incorrect” because it doesn’t seem to fit our Bottom Guy imprint.

        With time, and with seeing the difference in results, it will absorb into our imprint. Nobody wants to return to the pain of failure when they have tasted the sweet nectar of success.

        The hurdle is just allowing yourself to not follow the Bottom Guy imprint and to consciously do the Top Guy behaviors just so you believe it is real when you see the difference in results, then you’ll get more than just an intellectual motivation to kill the Bottom Guy. It will be REAL.

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/09/2018 at 10:12 pm

        For Kino – you don’t say much other than she was reluctant – but then this

        I then was able to put my arm around her waist

        Here’s the laser focus

        I then was able to

        That right there sounds like ‘pushing towards’. Or, you werent able to put your hand on her, legs, arms, waist, etc, you couldn’t touch her for some mysterious magnetic force field, but then you overcame that obstacle and were finally able to touch her.

        That’s ‘creepy kino’

        Where’s the creepy? on the ‘bounded by obstacles’ part. Why is it creepy? because that belongs to bottom guy frame.

        =======

        For leadership, try this. Rank yourself 1-10 in DOMINANCE during that date. Were you dominant? did you go exactly for what you want it, expecting to get it, and got it? did you sent boundaries for the things that you don’t want?

        When you went for the kiss on the cheek and she bent backwards – did it cross your mind to tell her “hey give me a kiss” and offer your mouth?

        ========

        My general headspace at the moment was not to overanalyze everything and just ‘go with the flow’

        What would you need to change so you’re the one setting the flow, pacing the flow, directing the flow, BEING the flow – as opposed to being one going with the flow?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/09/2018 at 10:19 pm

          On advice for kino – try to find Lance’s pickup 101 dvds somewhere, they are gold

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/10/2018 at 12:11 am

            I tried looking for this on youtube and there were like 6 videos but nothing that notably stood out on kino.

            Can you share some pointers of the top of your mind?

            I think my problem is that I am trying to ‘force kino’ and should likely address it the same way as opportunity / wall.

            Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/10/2018 at 12:09 am

          I then was able to put my arm around her waist
          This point is noted. I was thinking like it was a ‘challenge level’ like in mystery method / krauser where the guy has to ‘move upwards’ but this seems all wrong the more I consider it.

          On the Dominance, I would say a 6 out of 10. As I was out of my area and also with this girl, I didn’t want to ‘push the sex now frame’ to prevent coming off as ‘thirsty’ and was thinking of listening to her to tell me how to fuck her. In this situation, I think there was a misunderstanding of the context from my side where I was moving along thinking that she was saying “lets go here cause I like it and it is on the way to sex” but in fact it was something else. This is what I was thinking was driving everything.

          On individual questions:

          Were you dominant?
          Only to a degree — 6 out of 10

          did you go exactly for what you want it, expecting to get it, and got it?
          Most of the time however it seems that the major components (ie. location) I ‘lost at being dominant’

          did you sent boundaries for the things that you don’t want?
          This is an interesting question in that I cannot recall a particular point where the girl did something and was really pushing at it for me to set a boundary. This was likely because of me ‘going with the flow’.

          When you went for the kiss on the cheek and she bent backwards – did it cross your mind to tell her “hey give me a kiss” and offer your mouth?
          No it did not. This is really the first time every in my life where a girl has bent backwards from a social kiss. If I was going for a kiss on the lips, I can understand from time to time I would get it wrong (maybe she thinking I was going to kiss her on the lips?). This kiss thing (her bending backwards) has really affected my interest in her to where I would say it is at -20% as posted for FlatLander and I am really not wanting to see her but at the same time I am not sure if I am “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” so the speak. I know for certain that she is playing me towards boyfriend territory which I have no interest in and am very wary to bang this girl and then find her all clingy to me. I would rather just not get involved with her considering her life situation (quit job, changing place, etc).

          What would you need to change so you’re the one setting the flow, pacing the flow, directing the flow, BEING the flow – as opposed to being one going with the flow?
          This would require me to be in the correct headspace which it is slowly coming together with after each iteration. Thinking over my situation, I am somewhat limited in experience here in interacting with girls like this (ie. dominance, leading, etc). The past I was just there chatting and after sometime, we went to my place and “sex just happened”. After each iteration and posting it here for brutal commentary, I adjust for the next time (like yesterday at drinks) and thing improve. In short, the more experience I get, the more I know what to expect and the more I know how to handle it.

          Reply
93. BlueValentine says:

    06/09/2018 at 5:21 pm

    Yohami, I remember you comment on my texts saying: Don’t end the text like that, don’t make it so final.

    What it means is you wanted me to always leave a “probe” to get the girl to respond.

    Well, if the girl is chasing you, why should it be important to always give her a reason to respond to the text?

    Also, in many texts you say we shouldn’t text in a way that only works if we get a response from the girl.

    Isn’t this breaking this rule a bit, where you always end the text with something that would encourage a response from the girl means it will only work if the girl responds?

    Or am I confusing some totally separate issues here?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/09/2018 at 5:49 pm

      Can you give me an example?

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        06/09/2018 at 10:49 pm

        The examples I found are all punishing an opening. So I guess that’s what you meant.

        But in text, can I theoretically have an interaction like this:

        Me: BV

        Her: :) :)

        Me: [Thumbs Up]

        Her: blablabla

        Or is that not leaving room for her to respond, which would be punishing an opening?

        I imagine a better interaction would be:

        Me: BV

        Her: :) :)

        Me: You looked like a gerbil today

        Her: Hahaha what?!

        Reply
94. Lucretius says:

    06/10/2018 at 2:35 am

    Just came back from another drinks (same type of event):

    It was a similar story as before but instead of suit, I went jeans + tshirt. I do notice that the jeans + tshirt gets more girl involvement than suit but this is dependent on the girl.
    On walking in, I was looking around the room for any ‘top guys’ or nice girls in a group where I could join. Unfortunately, the room layout didnt help and I couldnt see very far and how things where arranged. To prevent me from looking ‘like a lost fart’ I saw a guy that I have met earlier (not exactly top guy but entertaining every now and again to talk with).
    In this case, I said hi and joined the converastion. The room dynamics had a couch closer to me which I sat down while the other two guys were standing and talking with me (ie. I was in lock-in). I was aware of this and also not wanting to ‘spend a really long time’ there as I didnt want to keep with the ‘toxic dynamic’ of trying to appear top guy instead of being top guy. But given the situation, it felt like I needed to be somewhere and not float around (a bit difficult to explain).

    The guy I was speaking with was telling me how things have been going since the last time we spoke (like 2-3 weeks back) and he was giving me all boring stuff about work but somewhere along the line, I noticed he was changing jobs a lot and eventually I asked him about it and why. He said it was because of his boss which had many interests and was a politician. I saw this and started to go down this line of thought of questioning and he gave more and more details about what the politician was interested in. This guy would give bland details but I would ‘dress’ them up like he was working for an african leader warlord.

    At this very point (with me being very animated and enjoying myself in twisting the story to make it more lively), two cute girls came and joined in the discussion. I was in control of the discussion and introduced them to the other guys and then lead with the guy telling us about the african warlord politician that he was working for. This guy would continue to tell the story but he would always stick to bland details and I would cut him off and inject things like ‘private helicopter to escape unhappy citizens, right?’. I was doing this for at least 5-7 times (else he would kill the buzz if I didnt) and every time the one girl would laugh as I would say it. The other girl I already knew (more in a moment).

    Strangely (or perhaps not), the girl I liked (very cute) immediately started to ask me:
    Her: so how long you been here?
    Me : you mean here at the bar or in [city]?

    Her: [city]
    Me : I been here for a few years already and I move around. Depends on if I like the girls here or not.

    Her: Fair enough //She also had face expressions on this and looked to the side as she was not use to getting a response like this

    This was the only rapport question she asked me. For the next 2 hours that I was speaking with her on and off in various groups, she DID NOT ASK ANY MORE RAPPORT questions!!
    My recent experience on RAPPORT is telling me that I need to cut it off at the VERY BEGINNING before it takes over the whole conversation.

    From there the other girl (attention seeker who really likes the attention) decided to leave the group as I was not paying her any attention.
    Some background on the attention girl. I met her a while back and she constantly has multiple guys around her and it is really like she is a dog trainer with the chiuaua humping her leg and she likes all the attention that she is getting. At the time (3 months back), I could sense that I could not do the same else I would end up the same as everyone else so I kept my comments reserved and did no flatter her like everyone else. Over the various drink events since, I was keeping distance and just saying a social hi as we saw each other. I could tell that she was being perplexed by why I was not doing what the other guys were doing. I didnt know what todo at the time and right now it is also someone sketchy but I did tease her over and over. Surprisingly (or not surprisingly) she would giggle when I called her by a little nickname I gave her (neg). Back to recent drinks, her going away today without saying anything has likely affected her.

    Back to the group discussion, there was now me + other guy + girl I liked. Here we were talking about various things and the discussion progressed onwards to extreme sports we did. The guy did sky diving but was explaining it in factual way whereas I was explaining it in visual way and also doing the motions like I am acting out what happened. At this point I was seeing a clear contrast between the girls responses to this other guy and her responses to me telling my story. All throughout this (and the whole night while interacting), i was watching her face for responses. Eventually some other guy came in and started speaking with the other guy which caused a split in the group so I am now speaking directly with the girl I like. Here I am starting to tease her a little bit on her accent and where she is from. This gave me spring board onto calling her posh girl which she was onto it (but not exuding it). At the same time I see the polish posh girl a few meters away and I point to polish posh while talking get this new posh girl to my left and I start to talk about how the polish posh girl is all posh. What is happening now is that I am with cute girl talking to her while pointing to polish posh girl and polish is looking at me and her and thinking what is going on (I did this at previous time I saw polish at drinks, when there was the 0.50 cents story). The polish is throwing small looks at me (like a half a second looks). I look away to the other guy in the group and mention something or other about something. The new posh girl picks up on the polish posh looks at me and then says:

    Her: She is checking you out
    Me : Who?

    Her: The posh girl over there
    Me : [her polish name] has been checking me out for the past 2-3 events
    Me : I will go speak with her another time

    Conversation continued on something else and the new posh girl is trying to get me to qualify myself to her by asking what I spend my money on (cause she spends on travel, clothes, blah blah). I teased her about making a list of questions on me and I redirected the question to the other guy to answer first. He did answer and she was bored. She then asked me “so now you”. Here I just gave some answer but in retrospect I should of played it up (having difficulty even coming up with something ridiculous now which was the same problem then). If there was a screwup that I can consciously see, it would be this.

    I excused myself and went to get a new drink and then joined other groups and entered into discussions. At this point I find the attention seeker and jump into the same group and start to tease her in the group. Here she laughs at it and then touches me on the arm (felt a bit more than social touching but more I could be overreading). There is a little mini-discussion for 3-4min and she says she has to leave (think for evening). I also say that it is time for me to leave and disconnect from the group and join another. For this attention seeker, I am going to send a “Hey [neg nickname] ;-)” and see what happens from there. If the approach for attention seekers is to remove the entitlement, I think I have achieved it because I am just not giving her the attention ‘dopamine validation hit’ that other guys have been giving her. Will report back on what happens with her.

    I enter into another group and there is a girl (sortof shy) that I was once trying to bang but fell into the ‘best friend’ category because of RAPPORT (3 months back). Here she even reached out to me and said:
    Her: you dont even say hello and we good friends
    Me : I am not your friend //facial expression was context misinterpretation – nothing aggressive but my message clear

    Her: blah blah blah //I dont remember what she said but it wasnt directly to me

    // I was saying this to another guy in the group
    Me : I dont say hi when she is complaining.
    Me : when she behaves then I say hi

    The exact exchange is hazzy in my mind but my responses are accurate in the above. She didnt take it well and was looking a little ‘annoyed’ but I left it at this point and didnt say much else and excused myself for another drink fill up. For background on the above “sortof shy girl”, I did not want to engage with her as friends as it would lead again to rapport so I punished because she used the ‘good friends’ term. The logic here is to break whatever image she has of me.

    Again I was moving to another group and it is no longer surprising that this group was talking about rapport stuff (how the city is, what you think of it, blah blah blah). When I join in and ask what the conversation was about, I get a topic and then immediately start to twist the topic again and tease the two girls that are in the group using this topic. The one girl is the cute girl I like from the first interaction (new posh girl) whereas the other is a new girl (cute but a little less cute – call her cute shy). After some twisting and turning on my part of the topics, eventually the cute shy girl is telling that she like a particular type of girl and nationality because of the darker skin and specific mannerisms. Straight from there I involve the two other guys into the discussion and say that they have a better chance than me here (all in teasing way). Girls continue to hahahahaha all the way through my teasing. Later as she described more of what she was looking for, I teased again and said “you guys are now out and I am in”. Girl again does hahahaha. The topics keep moving and each time I am twisting it to make the conversation more lively and “non-linear”. Eventually it gets to breakfast and I start roleplaying with the new posh girl on making me breakfast. She was engaging with the other cute shy girl but was being a bit cautious of addressing me directly on how she would make me breakfast (ie. she didnt want to be on the spot is what I feel now). In the moment, I didnt press it further and let the point slide. There were some other roleplay where I was connecting me and her by saying things like “if we are dating, you need to be able to blah blah”. I need to change this in future to “When we are dating, you need to be able to blah blah”. This is a point for improvement for me to assume the roleplay is already happening and not an IF.

    A funny guy I knew came past and I introduced him to the cute shy girl as her description (and nationality of what she was looking for was all him). I was setting up the “match” between them and then went off to join another group and then moved later on again and saw the two at the bar and asked how things were going. They said good. I said “Well then I will take my matchmaking fee and put my glass on the counter”. The girl then orders a drink for me. So what was happening here is that the funny guy had bought drinks for himself and her but then the girl is buying me a drink in front of the funny guy (he is a nice guy). I then leave and join another group composed of people that I have already briefly met.

    More discussion goes on and I recall seeing the new posh girl in the group and I ask where she went. The one guy says toilet. I continue speaking with the group and the new posh girl comes back and joins in again. The discussion becomes all inclusive and we are talking about the bar and the music they are playing (someone else raised it). Here I am using judgement and saying this is terrible or good and presenting my opinions. Discussion goes on a bit longer and I see the polish posh girl come from the toilet. I then look directly at the polish for a good 3-4 seconds (over my shoulder) while she is walking to me and she looks to the side to pretend not to notice me. I then look back at the group and the polish moves behind me and touched my arm and does ‘double tap’ and then moved onwards. This I interpret as her asking me to open her but I am busy at the moment with the new posh girl (I am sure the new posh girl saw this as well).

    The discussion goes on a bit longer and then I saw that it is getting late and all the cool people are leaving the drinks event (i also pointing to the group). I say that I am going out somewhere else and ask the new posh girl if she is coming. She says no with a bit of a reserved expression. I say something to the effect of ‘oh well’ or something (ie. I was not trying to convince her to come). She then decides to says that she has a fitness class at 9am the next morning. I dont say anything and then turn to the other guy (pretty cool guy) and ask him if he is going out and he says he is going home. I say that is cool but let me get your number so we go out another time. he puts in his number and I see his whatsapp photo and start to tease a bit about him being like out of an english movie (like victorian era) because of how he was dressed. Girl is laughing. I shake the guys hand to wish him well. The girl then says “I feel so left out”. I didnt hear it and said “what”. She repeats “I feel so left out”. I say “oh so you want to give me your number too, ok”. I take out my phone and give hold it for her to put in her number which she does and then adds her name and “super cool” under her contact.

    We then all say our goodbyes and everyone goes their own direction.
    On leaving I found the cute shy girl and the funny guy and told them goodbye. Also got both their numbers to setup for something else. Something interesting happened with cute shy girl. She said that she would message me via the online platform. I said ‘take my number for whatsapp’ (cant exact remember but it must of been this as I took her phone and put my number in). She then send me a message “Hi, its [girl name]”. I looked at it and said “what?!! no smilies”. She then said “oh sorry” (in a panicky girly tone) and then sent 7 emojie smilies in a row (she was just tapping the phone). I think I said “much better” (I really cant remember here). This girl is cute but not someone I am actively looking at. Will send her a message anyways on Tuesday and see how things are with her and take it from there.

    FYI, there were other group interactions but the relevant ones were:
    – New posh girl
    – Polish posh girl
    – Attention seeker girl
    – sortof shy girl
    – cute shy girl

    [~~~~~~~~~~~]

    There were a few things happening here during drinks that I think were positive:
    – I was actively avoiding RAPPORT because it goes no where and is just boring for me as well
    – I was able to continue dominating all the group discussions that I was in
    – I was the ‘heart of the party’ in all the groups I was in. Reflected in both from the girls and the guys interacting with me as the center. When I left a group, I saw the group scatter a few minutes later.
    – I wasnt stuck in any group I didnt like (I actively moved around)
    – I wasnt following (chasing) a particular girl (but was very conscious of new posh girl and moved around and merged from group to group)
    – I did not try to escalate with the ‘I am going home’ wall from the new posh girl. My non-verbal response was of the effect ‘too bad’
    – If I contrast with bulgarian, I WAS the flow at the drinks and was leading in the various aspects (felt good)
    – I feel that I made an impact on the various girls that I was speaking to (more so than previously) as I was really having fun in the ‘twisting and teasing’ of whatever girls + guys were saying

    Any notable thoughts?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~]
    On the polish posh girl, she was wearing a mini-skirt with fishnet stockings and high heels. If there is ever an attention caller, it would be this.
    Given her double tap on my arm, I need to engage with her soon (might as well be tomorrow) else it will be punishment by default through silence.
    As I see it, she is inviting me to interact with her and need to reward her here. I would open and say “hey Posh girl ;-)” and see what comes from there.

    Any counter thoughts here?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      06/10/2018 at 12:39 pm

      Just came back from another drinks (same type of event):

      Someone kidnapped the old L. What we have here is a sexy, socially savvy man who’s leading convos, building preselection, juggling multiple groups, merging sets, creating jealousy plotlines, freezing out noncompliant attention whores. very good stuff. It looks like straight and honest feedback worked very well indeed.

      Major progress, dude.

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      06/10/2018 at 12:42 pm

      At the same time I see the polish posh girl a few meters away and I point to polish posh while talking get this new posh girl to my left and I start to talk about how the polish posh girl is all posh. What is happening now is that I am with cute girl talking to her while pointing to polish posh girl and polish is looking at me and her and thinking what is going on (I did this at previous time I saw polish at drinks, when there was the 0.50 cents story). The polish is throwing small looks at me (like a half a second looks). I look away to the other guy in the group and mention something or other about something. The new posh girl picks up on the polish posh looks at me and then says:
      Her: She is checking you out
      Me : Who?
      Her: The posh girl over there
      Me : [her polish name] has been checking me out for the past 2-3 events
      Me : I will go speak with her another time
      […]
      Discussion goes on a bit longer and I see the polish posh girl come from the toilet. I then look directly at the polish for a good 3-4 seconds (over my shoulder) while she is walking to me and she looks to the side to pretend not to notice me. I then look back at the group and the polish moves behind me and touched my arm and does ‘double tap’ and then moved onwards. This I interpret as her asking me to open her but I am busy at the moment with the new posh girl (I am sure the new posh girl saw this as well).
      [~~~~~~~~~~~]
      On the polish posh girl, she was wearing a mini-skirt with fishnet stockings and high heels. If there is ever an attention caller, it would be this.
      Given her double tap on my arm, I need to engage with her soon (might as well be tomorrow) else it will be punishment by default through silence.
      As I see it, she is inviting me to interact with her and need to reward her here. I would open and say “hey Posh girl ;-)” and see what comes from there

      Ok. Outstanding social game there, dude.
      Jealousy plotline + gossip + aloofness = a very wet Polish Posh Girl.

      You got 95% there and then fell on your face 2 metres from the notch line.

      Do you know what the double tap was for?

      Next time something like this happens, you wait 3 minutes, excuse yourself from the group, find the girl, order a cab, take her home and bang her senseless.

      She was NOT inviting you to “interact with her”. She was asking you to take her home then and there.

      Now, you turned down her sex invite at the party.

      What do you think she’s feeling?

      Do you think she wants a reward?

      Do you think she wants you to “see what comes from there”?”

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 1:07 pm

        Could very well be.

        What was going through my mind is that I had the ‘new posh girl’ in front of me and wanted to bounce her. Unfortunately this one didn’t work out on the night but she still seems very eager to continue at another point.

        I wasn’t thinking of taking the polish posh girl that night and there was a thought in my mind that as the new posh girl wasn’t available that night, it would feel strange if I then went to the polish posh girl while she was in the dance area (something would of not been right in my frame). It could be my undoing with the polish posh girl but it went the way it went.

        I will text her and see what happens.

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/10/2018 at 6:43 pm

      This was fantastic – really phenomenal progress. I have a couple pointers to make it better but first the most important question:

      Were you ‘drained’ or ‘energized’ by this type of interaction?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 6:51 pm

        I was energized by the interaction.

        Reply
95. BlueValentine says:

    06/10/2018 at 11:14 am

    Yohami, what do you think about this? Any parts that slip into Bottom Guy?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Mwr1pDusQ

    Reply
96. Lucretius says:

    06/10/2018 at 1:35 pm

    @yohami
    The text chat with the polish is now at the following point:

    Me : Hey Posh Girl ;-)
    Her: Hello [Lucretius], what’s up?

    I can clearly see that she is not really wanting to play here. I know that if I answer straight, I am going to kill this interaction. What I see in the above is that she is compliant in answering me quickly (<15min) but there is no flirty part from her.

    If you could come back relatively quickly with a suggestion, it would be really appreciated.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/10/2018 at 1:50 pm

      If I try to think my way through this, the following comes to mind:

      Me : You made quite a statement last night with the blue dress

      In the above I am referring back to the previous night but at the same time I am showing ‘remembering and caring’. It doesn’t feel right.

      Me : Recovering from last night. So tell me about things with you?

      In the above, I am referring to the night before and got home late and am recovering (ie. the party went on). I am then asking her to tell me what is up with her to see if there is anything I can build on. This also doesn’t feel right.

      Me : Was nice to see you last night. You made a statement with the blue dress.

      Here I am being more direct in why I am messaging her and giving her something to respond to but still has remembered and cared. If the double tap was really for sex, then it could trigger some negative emotion in her (don’t know here). There is also some validation in there so don’t know if this will sooth any negative feelings she has. This may hold in the sense that she is now moving again through the girl queue with me.
      I don’t know but this seems better response than the others.

      I cant think of anything else

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/10/2018 at 2:00 pm

        Me : Was nice to see you last night. You made a statement with the blue dress.
        Me : Recovering from last night. So tell me about things with you?

        So very gay. Much bottom guy.

        version 1 (hardcore)
        Me : Hey Posh Girl ;-)
        Her: Hello [Lucretius], what’s up?
        Me: My dick. That’s what’s up. Wanna help with that?

        version 2 (regular booty call)
        Me : Hey Posh Girl ;-)
        Her: Hello [Lucretius], what’s up?
        Me: Chilling. Come on over. We’ll drink wine and watch cat videos.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/10/2018 at 2:05 pm

          I will actually just give your version 2 a try and if it goes sideways, then it goes sideways.

          Any final thoughts before I send it?

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 2:03 pm

        In the previous responses, I am only rewarding in response 2 & 3.

        Response 2 has acknowledgement of her ‘what’s up’ (reward)
        Response 3 has the better reward (ie a validation)

        Response 2 starts to lean towards asexual rapport but I need to get her talking
        Response 3 leans towards sexual frame because of her blue dress

        From the above, I can only see response 3 as being the most appropriate of everything I can think up.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          06/10/2018 at 2:10 pm

          This part of the seduction process is OVER. The only reward she craves is your dick.Give it to her..

          Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      06/10/2018 at 2:06 pm

      *Me : Hey Posh Girl ;-)
      Her: Hello [Lucretius], what’s up?

      I can clearly see that she is not really wanting to play here. I know that if I answer straight, I am going to kill this interaction. What I see in the above is that she is compliant in answering me quickly (<15min) but there is no flirty part from her.*

      You see shit, dude.

      She is ready and willing to be led by you.

      She is waiting for you to invite her.

      No walls.

      No games,

      No flirting.

      Just her waiting for you to act like a top guy and order her to come on over.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 3:02 pm

        The transcript is like this:

        Me : Hey Posh Girl ;-)
        Her: Hello [Lucretius], what’s up?
        Me : Relaxing. Come on over. We’ll drink wine and watch cat videos.

        It has been an hour and I am sure she has seen it already.
        No response from her so I call it where it is (already starting to get late).

        In retrospect, I should of changed “cat videos” to “Netflix” but this would be a minor detail for future.

        Was actually a bit of a ‘fright / thrill’ to send the above as it was very direct and perhaps is what I needed. If things dead with Polish at least I can now move onwards to other girls and not think of her anymore.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/10/2018 at 5:11 pm

          Two hours later, I get this:

          Her: I see, you still didn’t get my answer. I said, I was not available. BTW: do you not know, that posh girls don’t come over? They are picked up by a man ;)

          She is clearly pointing out things that I missed. Breaking it down:
          “I see, you still didn’t get my answer. I said, I was not available”

          This is her clearly pointing back to before. I don’t know if she is now speaking in innuendo or if this is still a hard wall.

          BTW: do you not know, that posh girls don’t come over? They are picked up by a man ;)

          I understand the above is actually a jibe (tease) against me saying that I wasn’t a man to take her then and there. It is all true in the moment as I am still finding my way around how todo this.

          There is a part of me that says that the “They are picked up by a man” could be an opening and was thinking of saying:

          Me : ;-)
          Me : Give me your address and I will pick you up in an Uber

          One part of me says to try this whereas another part of me says that I am interacting with a wall. Either way, I must respond here with something or just silence and throw it away.

          Any thoughts here? Still got time for a meet up tonight.

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            06/10/2018 at 5:21 pm

            I would not respond at all or would send an ASCII dick. She’s not complying and still throwing walls.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/10/2018 at 5:23 pm

            The more I think about the above, her complete response is a put down. I am more inclined to now say:

            Me : Its ok little girl. The loneliness will always be there.

            Then disconnect permanently.

            The “its ok little girl” is now the punishment and her “posh girl” is now “little girl”. I then add the “loneliness” back again and leave her with that.

            Any thoughts?

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              06/10/2018 at 6:10 pm

              No. It’s a bit too butthurt.

              A much better line is a non sequitur. It’s nonsensical, assumes the sale and/or smashes her frame.

              Examples

              Me: bring the movies

              or

              Me: [ascii dick]

              or

              Me: birthday cat pic

              etc

              Source: https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/chicks-dig-jerks-game-is-its-own-status/

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/10/2018 at 6:26 pm

                The posts crossed but I am ok with what I sent.

                It can always be interpreted in whichever way.

                The “its ok” can be that I accept that she is ‘not available’ (ie. not interested in me for whatever reasons) and I am also becoming loathed to keep trying.

                The ‘loneliness’ jibe will stay with her (I think). As she sees me at other events with me getting the interaction with other girls correct, she can seethe on the inside as I don’t approach her or include her in the interactions.

                On my side, the polish girl has become a greater psychological burden on me and just ending it here is fine with me. I need to take the lessons learnt (and Yohami comments) and move on.

            • Lucretius says:

              06/10/2018 at 6:10 pm

              I sent the above and it feels more right than anything before. The above is really coming from all the previous texts chats that I have had online and specifically the poolside girl where I did not see that she was putting me down. Once my mind stepped back and saw that it was a put down from her, my mind came up with the above.

              The more I think about this, the more I am getting a sense of ‘what to ping’ in the girl.

              In arousing the girl, I need to ping something that is personal or specific to the girl. In the case of the polish, it was ‘being posh’. She dresses up that way and puts on make up that way and acts around in that way. This would explain why when I gave the nickname ‘posh girl’ she smiled at it via text. She is use to being the prize and having guys come after her. I am really of the belief that when this pattern of familiarity is disrupted in the girl, she will start to question what is going on. Something akin to when guys don’t respond to a girls beauty and girls think WTF.

              I am thinking that the opposite would also exist from arousal. In the case of ‘anxiety’ generated in the girl. This is where the punishment would come in and just like pinging the arousal spots there would be pinging on anxiety spots.

              In my final response, I took away her ‘posh girl’ and replaced it with ‘little girl’. It was instinctive in the moment but somehow in my mind a little girl cannot be a posh girl in the grown up sense. I would imagine she would “feel the downgrade”.

              The other anxiety ping was to ‘loneliness’ that all girls would experience more than anything else. Of course, loneliness would affect both guys + girls but it would create a greater anxiety for girls because of the ‘female wall phenomenon’.

              The more I start to get a feel for the communication where I have to ‘duel’ with her (when things are as they are) but in a ‘high level way’ where it is punishment and reward and arousal by pinging these specific points that are unique to the girl.

              Perhaps Yohami can comment when he is available.

              @FlatLander
              A short thank you for your version 2 suggestion. I had a strong indication that it would likely go nowhere because of how she responded to my opening (using my name and no smilies) and escalating didnt seem appropriate as it didn’t feel like she was in the moment, but it still pushed me forward with being more direct which is something I likely would of not done. Thank you again.

              On the “cat video”, this sounds a bit “teenager” but “Netflix” would sound more “neutral”. This would be a personal style point.

              On the ASCII dick pic, I don’t like doing this because it feels like I am ‘hurt’ by her response and would be expressing it using the ASCII dick pic (ie. it may come across as me being immature in dealing with rejection). I feel that I would need to maintain the ‘mature’ frame.

              For clarity FlatLander, I am not saying anything about you, just a style expression for myself.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                06/10/2018 at 6:30 pm

                This is bottom guy to the core:

                Me : Its ok little girl. The loneliness will always be there.

                You can safely delete completely the part of your personality that ‘feels right’ about it.

                Basically you validated her rejection with it, you confirmed you’re not the type of guy that she would fuck (or the type of guy any girl will fuck)

                So go ahead and remove it, don’t do this type of stuff again

                ============

                I’d have sent

                Me: Come over

                Or

                Me: Want to come over?

                No explanation, no netflix, no cat videos, nada. You don’t have to add explanations and justifications to your call to actions.

                Then after she insists she’s not available and that a man would pick her over, I’d have sent this:

                Me: Aight, give me your address and I’ll pick you up

                If she then takes away that possibility and says no again, I’d neg her

                Me: You’re boring

                And that would be it, for now at least

                ====================

                Now here’s the breakdown of why your closing line is bottom guy

                Me : Its ok

                You’re doubling down on the wall she gave you – is it really ok? no right? but here you take it to heart

                little girl

                You try to hurt her, but is is reflection / projection. SHE is rejecting you, so YOU feel small, now you try to punish he after you’ve been chasing. So you’re saying ‘Im a little boy and I take your rejection at face value’

                The loneliness will always be there.

                The previous ‘ping me when you’re lonely’ had a smirk quality that is lost in this new iteration – there’s no humor here, you’re hurt, and trying to hurt her.

                And who’s lonely? she’s fucking more guys she can handle, has more orbiters she can handle. She goes to the same event you do and she spends the night being bombarded by dick. How about you? spending your days on a website trying to learn to get laid?

                :-D

                So you just gave her a justification to reject you forever. You didn’t take the ‘posh’ away from her, you’re putting her higher on a pedestal.

                Girls like these are surrounded by enough men to know what a butthurt loser looks like

                Don’t play that role – there’s no win for you here.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/10/2018 at 6:36 pm

                Noted.

                Another mess up to add to my experience list.

                The upside for me is that at least it is over and I can focus on someone new (ie. psychological weight lifted)

              • Lucretius says:

                06/10/2018 at 6:41 pm

                Me: Aight, give me your address and I’ll pick you up

                So I was right on my first attempt but after thinking and thinking and thinking, I fucked everything up.

97. Lucretius says:

    06/10/2018 at 7:12 pm

    On the polish posh girl (just to close):

    I feel shit that I did the very thing I did not want todo which was not to “fight back against her rejection” but ended up doing exactly that just in different and softer words. I feel a bit shit and how I messed this up and will now have the polish at future drinks always thinking about my messages. Eventually, it will pass.

    This means that ‘anxiety pings’ is non-sense my bottom guy is thinking up. The more thinking that goes on, the more screwups I seem to be making.

    I will open new text chat with ‘new posh girl’ and see where that goes.

    What would be nice is to get a few complete meets -> sex right so I can see what is correct and what is just non-sense.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/10/2018 at 8:26 pm

      Yeah – don’t dwell on it. Rob it of significance. Act as if nothing happened – specially when you see her again. That’s enough to reframe it.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 8:33 pm

        It is something wrong in my headspace.

        It is like there is me + bottom guy + top guy and I am watching them fight it all out.

        It is like the bottom guy is fighting for life inside me coming up and doing little things that make me feel like I am doing the right thing, but screw things up. The only way I can think of resolving this is just more and more iterations with successes and failures in different areas with constant debug (this is why I am spending a very large portion of my time on this website ;-) … for the debug).

        There is always this thing in my head where I am always trying todo everything right the first time round and it causes me to freeze (which is happening again). If I evaluate things, it is best to me to do an iteration on my own and then try to debug for corrections / improvements rather than asking for a suggested answer at every point.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          06/10/2018 at 8:47 pm

          Yeah well – at least you have the two frames fighting, that’s normal. Some time ago you only had bottom guy frame.

          The frame that should win, or top guy frame, says this about what happened:

          It doesn’t matter at all.

          That girl and all that story matters to absolutely not anyone.

          Adopt that carefree frame and next time some girl gives you some wall-resistance-trap (go back in our convos, I illustrated how the trap to expose bottom guy is to give a guy resistance and watch him react) – the next time a girl is playing the wall resistance game you won’t care. Because you shouldn’t. That’s not for you. That’s what she does to filter men. Thats her problem

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            06/10/2018 at 9:08 pm

            Thank you for the encouragement.
            Always nice to hear some nice words right after some smackdown.

            I feel that in person, I come across differently because I have facial expressions and animated body language when I am talking / teasing but when texting, I always have the worry that I may come across wrong because so much information is missing and that my teases are misinterpreted as punishment or scourn. When you add that I am frequently punishing compliance and rewarding walls, it is something for me to manage.

            In the polish posh girl, I can clearly see now two frames and how the battle went after FlatLander suggested to get her to come out.

            Top Guy:
            Me : ;-) Give me your address and I pick you up with an Uber

            Bottom Guy
            Me : its ok little girl. The loneliness will always be there.

            The Top Guy frame in me said to ignore her ‘not available’ and jump on her ‘picked up by a man’ and run with that. But then I saw a put down and the memories from poolside girl came rushing back and the Bottom Guy frame came in and tried to fight her off.

            The only upside here is that I made both suggestions first before sending anything so I could see what was happening in my head. Your specific breakdown explained what was going on and why it turned out to be Bottom Guy.

            If I think about it right now as I am typing this, there is this surge of feeling in me that says ‘I should of just thought FUCK IT’ and tried to get her out by playing on her words (which is what I do well in person as experienced yesterday). The worst that could of happened is that she said no another time. Instead I chose to fold without pushing forward.

            The polish is a weight on my mind but it is also the one experience that is teaching me the most because it is ongoing for so long with so much happening concurrently. I honestly don’t think she would be great in bed. The only thing that kept me moving forward was to get her into bed after which nothing else mattered.

            This is effectively my general sentiments on every girl.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              06/11/2018 at 6:24 am

              For some reasons, half way through sleeping last night I woke up and still felt a little shit at my responses to polish.

              I go back to sleep a bit more and I wake up laughing at myself and this situation I have put myself in and seemingly want to try again with the polish at the next drinks in person (no texts).

              If I stop now, it feels like I am just giving up. If I am going to go down in flames, I would rather have it be in person (rather than in texts) but somehow I feel better in person than via texts. It is like I can laugh a bit at myself (the situation) because this is all of my making.

              It feels like I want to try to speak with the polish again for 5-10 min in person (on Friday if I see her) while also smiling at the absurdity of everything. This same feeling that I have now is the same feeling I had at the Saturday drinks.

              Is this normal?

              Just out of curiosity, is there anything I can send via text following my last line to convey the somewhat absurdity of everything and that my last line isn’t really serious.

              I have this urge to just send something to change the last mood I left via text.

              Me : I sometimes laugh at the situation that I get into from time to time :-P
              Me : Maybe catchup at the next drinks

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/11/2018 at 6:29 am

                Slight revision based on what I am feeling:

                Me: I sometimes have to laugh at the situation that I get myself into from time to time with girls :-P
                Me : Maybe catchup at the next drinks

                The above feels like I am just taking the edge of any seriousness from the last line I sent.

                I feel just like sending the above but might as well get some Yohami thoughts on this. If I am going to send something, be good to have it today before too much time has passed.

                I do recognize that it may be technically CHASE but given the previous line, dang I feel like it need to change the spin on it before to late (even if just for laughs)

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/11/2018 at 7:14 am

                That feeling is bottom guy to the core and you can let it die

              • Lucretius says:

                06/11/2018 at 7:25 am

                So it is really no follow up or explanation or commentary when I screw up?

                Top guy just moves on to other girls and that be that.

                If I see her in person I re-engage but with no reference to anything in the past like it is a completely new encounter, right?

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/11/2018 at 7:39 am

                Chase is death and non-chase is a life – even a disaster text exchange will get reframed if you stop chasing, enough time passes, and then you meet at a different spot and your frame has changed, or if you produced mixed top/bottom guy impressions: with the non chase the top guy impressions will eventually win.

                So here is the bottom guy you have to suffocate:

                For some reasons, half way through sleeping last night I woke up and still felt a little shit at my responses to polish.

                The reason: you’re not fucking 10 other girls so you think this one matters. You’re clingy and needy and doing game as a trick on top of your default kiss but up begger persona.

                Let this personality burn.

                I go back to sleep a bit more and I wake up laughing at myself and this situation I have put myself in and seemingly want to try again with the polish at the next drinks in person (no texts).

                Laughter is good, laugh more. Stop chasing this girl. You already saw how non-chase got you further than chasing her. Your courtship mating dance is bottom guy: stop.

                If I stop now, it feels like I am just giving up.

                Bottom guy NEEDS TO GIVE UP.

                It will never work – switch to a frame that does.

                If I am going to go down in flames

                Bottom guy thinking. Here’s the truth again: none of this matters. It doesn’t matter to anyone, it doesn’t matter to her.

                I would rather have it be in person (rather than in texts) but somehow I feel better in person than via texts. It is like I can laugh a bit at myself (the situation) because this is all of my making.

                None of it matters

                It feels like I want to try to speak with the polish again for 5-10 min in person (on Friday if I see her) while also smiling at the absurdity of everything.

                What is the absurdity? you want to fuck her and are failing to arouse her. What is there to TALK about?

                This same feeling that I have now is the same feeling I had at the Saturday drinks.

                Go out and bang 4 chicks.

                Is this normal?

                Yes – your bottom guy was presented with a wall and is obsessing about it.

                You fell in the trap. Learn to identify this so you an avoid it.

                Just out of curiosity, is there anything I can send via text following my last line

                Yes. SEND SILENCE.

                to convey the somewhat absurdity of everything and that my last line isn’t really serious.

                There’s nothing absurd going on: but what do you want to achieve with talking further? are you going to arouse her and fuck her? how is talking about your bottom frame issues is going to arouse her?

                I have this urge to just send something to change the last mood I left via text.

                Bottom guy.

                Me :Me: I sometimes have to laugh at the situation that I get myself into from time to time with girls :-P

                Gay (ht flatlander). What is the emoticon about? are you trying to flirt? or trying to look harmless? are you a puppy rolling on your belly now? “I sometimes laugh”? do you like icecream and parks but not chocolate?

                You get into trouble with girls? why, lack of experience? oh you tried to pull her but it didn’t work so now your hurt but now want to play nice? only happens with girls? it doesn’t happen with your male fuckfriends?

                Me : Maybe catchup at the next drinks

                And you ask for permission to be an orbiter?

                Haha man. Nope. You’re chasing thus INCREASING THE PROBLEM.

                The above feels like I am just taking the edge of any seriousness from the last line I sent.

                No, you’re fabricating a giant dildo and sitting on it.

                You don’t need to ‘take off the edge’, you need to remove the bottom guy. The same guy who sent the but hurt text is the one trying to play like a kids cartoon now. Same frame, kill it.

                Even “little girl” is better than this new stunt because the first one, followed by silence, it’s still coming from an authority place. This new version is coming from the bottom and passing her the power to be your judge, so followed by silence it has NOWHERE TO GO.

                I feel just like sending the above but might as well get some Yohami thoughts on this. If I am going to send something, be good to have it today before too much time has passed.

                On the contrary, time passing is what it needs.

                I do recognize that it may be technically CHASE

                It’s 100% chase, nothing technical about it

                but given the previous line, dang I feel

                Nobody gives a fuck about what you feel.

                Specially none of the girls.

                like it need to change the spin on it before to late

                Before it’s too late for what?

                l (even if just for laughs)

                Aight man, just for laughs then? send an emoticon

                8=====D

                Do it. That will make it ‘funny’ but it’s gross and crass. So that takes the bottom guy edge from that shitty line, without rolling on your belly and making her be the judge. Then let time pass and go back to ignoring this girl at the drinks like you were doing.

                Send the ASCII dick and let your bottom guy die as you’re on it.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/11/2018 at 8:26 am

                I see the problem.

                Silence is best here instead of me just trying to do ‘something’ (anything) just to appease the bottom guy inside.

                I ignore her again it is unless she taps me again.

                Be good to see your pointers on how I could improve on the drinks in person.

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/11/2018 at 8:32 am

                Send the dick ASCII

              • Lucretius says:

                06/11/2018 at 8:45 am

                Maybe this is the bottom guy speaking but are you sure I should send that?

                The dick pic is really gross and crass.

                Silence is sounding so much better when I compare the options

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/11/2018 at 8:52 am

                Yup, send the dick. You’re afraid: that’s the issue.

                Sending the dick will erase the impression that you’re a butthurt kid and make you look more like a playful teenager, the silence afterwards will reinforce that you don’t take this seriously

                But basically, send it because you’re afraid to do so and you’d rather play nice and keep your current personality alive. It needs to go.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/11/2018 at 9:09 am

                You are right in that I am afraid to send stuff like that.

                But I sent it.

                One part of me is a bit thrilled that I am doing this and the other part is like WTF!!

98. Lucretius says:

    06/10/2018 at 7:32 pm

    New Posh girl chat ongoing (lets see if I can get this right):

    [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~~]

    Me : Hey posh girl ;-)
    Her: haha not all that posh!
    Her: How was the rest of your evening?

    [~~~~ Proposed responses ~~~~~]

    Me : a pretender then ;-)
    Me : Went to [city area] and had lots of fun. You should of come

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Response 1 is reward plus working with her statement
    Response 2 is a followon to her question. I wait for what she says and then build on it and take somewhere else.

    For reference, she had fitness at 9am (apparently).

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      06/10/2018 at 8:43 pm

      Me : Hey posh girl ;-)

      Good

      Her: haha not all that posh!

      Note the haha? it landed, that’s the arousal, here you have to reward and escalate

      Me: It’s fine I like posh girls

      Her: How was the rest of your evening?

      She switches to rapport, she wants to know if you banged the other girl most likely

      Me : a pretender then ;-)

      “pretender” is now a second nickame for something she said she’s not – are you trying to neg her? if so it’s punishing her compliance. Or are you trying to arouse her (with the wink) if so it’s not clear. Sort of stuck in the middle road

      Me: Hey if you don’t want me to think you’re posh then you wouldn’t be dressing like [COMPARISON]

      If you feel like teasing / negging, but this has to make sense and land.

      Or

      Me: It’s ok you can be posh with me
      Me: It’ll be our secret ;-)

      If you want to roleplay a little, again this needs to make sense. If she REALLY a posh?

      Or

      Me: Better, I don’t really like posh girls ;-)

      If you want to reward her for not being really posh

      Whatever the case, this has to land and needs to be non-ambiguous. Calling her ‘pretender’ is not enough, unless you plan to escalate further

      Me: Right, you just dress like a posh and talk like a posh but you’re just pretending ;-)

      But who cares. Focus on the HAHA

      She’s aroused. Rub her. What is true for her? go there.

      Me : Went to [city area] and had lots of fun. You should of come

      I know this made sense for another girl but here it’s shit game. Why? because she’s already aroused

      REWARD AND ESCALATE

      =============

      Me : Hey posh girl ;-)
      Her: haha not all that posh!
      Her: How was the rest of your evening?
      Me: It’s ok, you can be posh with me ;-) /// Better, posh girls are crazy
      Me: It was fun. How was your rock climbing session? (porposeful mistake, you don’t remember / don’t care)
      Her: Hahah fitness! blah blah
      Me: Cool (reward). When are you free? let’s go for a drink or something /// I’ll take you out

      And bang

      ===========

      This is simpler than the route you’re considering at the moment.

      The “I went to xxx and did XXX” was for a girl (original posh?) who was pinging you on her own the day after to find out what you did, so it was a good idea to double down there.

      The principle is that you LOOK AT HER (behavior) and see what SHE is reacting to and what is arousing her, so you know what to do with it. If you just shuffle things around you’ll go nowhere. This girl doesn’t really care about what you did afterwards, she’s just going for rapport. Abort rapport, flirt, escalate, take action, lead.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        06/10/2018 at 9:52 pm

        Thanks.

        I think she is not really that posh therefore it would of been:

        Me: Better, I don’t really like posh girls ;-)

        but I can see this working too

        Me: It’s ok, you can be posh with me ;-)

        This part always freaks me out because it is short and non-descript:
        Me: It was fun.

        Intellectually it feels strange (probably bottom guy) to be evasive but recalling the chat with the Bulgarian where I just said that I would be near her city area and if she was free. I thought that it may be an issue but it wasn’t at all (she didn’t care why I was there until the very end when I said I had to leave).

        The lessons for me here are:
        – Don’t take any of her questions seriously. They are likely traps for something I just cannot see (at the moment anyways)
        – Just take the parts of her responses that I want to work with and then work with that (ignoring all the rest)

        Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      06/10/2018 at 8:52 pm

      This is the full transcript:

      [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~~]
      [line 01] Me : Hey posh girl [emojie wink]
      [line 02] Her: haha not all that posh!

      [line 03] Her: How was the rest of your evening?
      [line 04] Me : You such a pretender!
      [line 05] Me : Went to [city location] and had lots of fun. You should of come.

      //I felt like I may of been too harsh on line 04 because of the exclamation mark and should of had a :-P to show I am teasing (not punishing). This led me to send the following line 10min later

      [line 06] Me : Teasing [emojie smilie tongue sticking out]
      [line 07] Her: Ah nice. Where did you end up going?
      [line 08] Me : Girls invited me to [club name] but it was at capacity. Went to bar around corner for a few more drinks.

      [line 09] Me : so what’s up with you
      [line 10] Her: Had a bit of a lazy Sunday. Ran some errands, and had to do a bit of work also
      [line 11] Her: Off to bed now. Have a good night! Talk soon

      [~~~ Though process ~~~]
      [line 01] standard opener with a nickname from her being a bit posh during drinks
      [line 02] it sortof hits the mark because of the hahaha but she does say ‘not all that posh!’ with an exclamation mark. This tells me she is trying to get out of the ‘posh’ box
      [line 03] She is now starting with standard rapport
      [line 04] I tease her about pretending to be posh. The exclamation mark may have been too much in retrospective
      [line 05] I give the rapport answer (all true). I specified a general area where there is lots happening. She could of also been asking about polish posh girl.
      [line 06] This is where I ‘panicked’ (bottom guy) and tried to soften the line 04 in case it was perceived as punishment
      [line 07] she says ‘ah nice’ which i understand that it was good that I did go out (as I said I would) but this is also a ramp as she wants the details from me (or she is just moving the conversation)
      [line 08] I give some more further details of what happened (girl I am seeing really did invite me and club was really full).
      [line 09] here I am trying to get her to talk to give me something for the conversation to go on. I didnt want to talk anything about clubs and bars because I been to like 4-5 different places whereas she had a list of 70 places in her phone when we were still discussing. I felt that if I got into this area, I would of gone down a route I could of fallen into traps. She is likely a party girl from the list of places she has but she told me during discussion that she does not like clubs and is more into bars which works for me.
      [line 10] she give me complete rapport answer and nothing for me to work with and take it somewhere. The most I can say here is to tease her along the lines of:

      Me : work on a sunday? your super cool girl credentials are in jeopardy

      I would of tried the above in absence of anything else.

      [line 11] As she put this line in (wall) I have to go silent.

      This is one of the concerns I have of speaking with girls in the evening that is the time lag is too long eventually the conversation is going to get cut short like the above.
      Now I am in wait mode for her to open me at some point (‘soon’ whenever that is)

      Thoughts?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        06/10/2018 at 9:04 pm

        Go back on course man :-) do you see how you’re punishing compliance, switching to asexual rapport, and killing her interest?

        That’s line by line what happened here. Let me know if you can see it, if not I’ll break it down.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/10/2018 at 9:18 pm

          Punishing compliance
          This must be line 4. here I was trying to address the ‘not that posh’ in a similar way with the hippie girl (fake look). I don’t understand how to address this outside of just ;-) but this feels like I am doing nothing

          switching to asexual rapport
          line 08 + line 09
          I know for line 08 I am just talking but couldn’t think of anything else. Would it be reasonable to go completely ridiculous like:
          Me : I went to [city area] but got abducted by this passing group of girls and then woke up inside a club to ‘thump thump music’ with only one shoe on and this big bouncer asking me if I was on the guest list

          I can make the above sortof ridiculous in real-time in person (and have been doing it a lot yesterday). Should I be focusing on this type of interaction?

          Killing her interest
          This is because of the asexual rapport

          General point
          I am missing a concept somewhere here. In the above the girl did not give me much to go on and I am actively searching for it.

          Is it perhaps that I should just be created ‘absurd’ but contextual stories instead of linear answers and see what she connects to?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            06/10/2018 at 9:20 pm

            The concept you’re missing is you’re not focusing on her compliance / arousal and escalating there

            Instead you’re punishing the compliance / arousal and de-escalating into rapport till you find a wall, then you flirt to that.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              06/10/2018 at 9:31 pm

              What I can think in the above interaction is that I answered her question of how last night went (I was following polish template).

              Should I have just stayed with the pretender and waited for her to respond?

              How should the escalation look at this point?

              The de-escalating into rapport is something that I am finding that I am doing because I am trying to get something from her to escalate on but I am not getting this “How are you” or “so whats up with you” when you use it versus when I use it.

              Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            06/10/2018 at 9:22 pm

            What kills a girls interest is not taking pussy when it’s on the table – the Hi and her Haha were in synch, there was the window. You missed the window and went for asexual rapport which means arousal goes down and walls go up. It’s as simple as that.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              06/10/2018 at 9:34 pm

              In retrospect, I could see the haha as arousal but how would I double down on this aspect?

              I feel like I am missing the words as examples on how to make this work.

              For the asexual report, I can break out of it through the ‘absurd’ answer which I have been doing in person. let me know if this is what I should be doing? Pretty much means that I am taking everything she says with ZERO seriousness.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                06/10/2018 at 9:36 pm

                Check my longer message I added several examples, it comes down to which scenario will arouse her and who she actually is

              • YOHAMI says:

                06/10/2018 at 9:38 pm

                Here http://www.daysofgame.com/street_game/a-close-call-with-a-married-woman/#comment-5255

      • YOHAMI says:

        06/10/2018 at 9:18 pm

        Me : work on a sunday? your super cool girl credentials are in jeopardy

        That’s flirting to a wall btw

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/10/2018 at 9:28 pm

          Why is this a wall?

          I would of seen this as an opportunity to tease (that she boring) as she put ‘super cool’ as her contact name in my phone.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            06/10/2018 at 9:34 pm

            Just look:

            [line 02] Her: haha not all that posh!

            High energy, enthusiastic, ‘haha’, it’s about HER, she’s present

            [line 10] Her: Had a bit of a lazy Sunday. Ran some errands, and had to do a bit of work also

            Asexual, low energy, bored, uninterested, mundane, all about impersonal things

            ===========

            So you have both spectrums of the girl, which one you think is closer to sex?

            Where is your energy multiplied, where is your energy lost? would talking much more about her sunday have a lifting effect on you?

            See why I asked if the experience drained you or energized you?

            Which one of these setups is an ‘opening’ and which one is a ‘wall’

            Now try to figure out why you punished one and want to reward the other.

            Even after all the explanations and theory :-D, so whats up with that.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              06/10/2018 at 9:42 pm

              I understand the theory in its abstract form.

              Having the two girls shown as above is very good for me to see and will help me see where the discussion is going.

              What I do see in this interaction, is that I don’t know how to escalate at this point. All I can think of is to build on the ridiculous towards the posh aspect and see where that goes but to always stay away from the mundane and ‘real world’. It feels like I should be staying in the ‘absurd fantasy’ world. Is this right?

              I am also seeing that if I am answering any of her questions, I am falling into a trap and getting lead down to asexual rapport again.

              What I am also understanding is that asking “how are you” or “whats up with you” to continue the conversation is going to be a dead end.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                06/10/2018 at 9:46 pm

                It’s not that complex. You’re punishing openings and rewarding walls. If you would be doing exactly the opposite you’d be banging all these girls.

                So see how you want to tease / flirt with the wall? do that when she’s in compliance.

                See how you tease / neg her compliance? do that with walls.

                Problem solved.

              • Lucretius says:

                06/10/2018 at 9:57 pm

                I think my issue is that I am looking for something to tease and just see walls easier than the openings.

                Perhaps because I have seen walls a lot more due to rapport that they come across easier.

                Another iteration, another reference experience.
                Will see when she comes back if I can do a bit better.

          • Lucretius says:

            06/10/2018 at 9:36 pm

            Is it because she said “had to do a bit of work” meaning that it was not her choice and I would be focusing on this?

            Would the appropriate thing todo be like the Bulgarian:
            “work is boring” and then take it somewhere else? But where?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              06/10/2018 at 9:38 pm

              NO. You had to take the opportunity and the window when it was there. That means you never get to deal with that wall you’re now trying to flirt with.

              Why on earth are you talking mundane things again?

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                06/10/2018 at 10:03 pm

                So my problem is contextual here.

                In the Bulgarian, she asked me what I am doing. I gave answer and then asked her. Because she said “busy working” I had to deflect the wall here and move it elsewhere by suggesting drinks. Her whole opening message to me was a window for me to take.

                In the new posh girl, she only said boring mundane things because I asked her whats up with her but there was a window first but I missed that but was interacting with the mundane.

      • Flat Lander says:

        06/11/2018 at 5:50 am

        Grammar nazi mode ON

        Incorrect
        [line 05] Me : Went to [city location] and had lots of fun. You should of come.
        I would of tried the above in absence of anything else.

        Correct:
        [line 05] Me : Went to [city location] and had lots of fun. You should HAVE come.
        I would HAVE tried the above in absence of anything else.

        Grammar nazi mode OFF

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          06/11/2018 at 6:25 am

          Noted.

          Reply
99. Factory says:

    06/11/2018 at 1:41 am

    Just on NICKNAMES and making them TRUE TO HER – a girl tells me in conversation she went skinny dipping recently in a famous pool which has just opened here. I like that she did this – it shows she is fun, adventurous. And gets naked :-)

    Therefore open her again with:

    M: What up skinny dipper ;-)
    M: What up skinny dip ;-)

    A part of me says this could be REMEMBERING AND CARING but at the same time is something which could be flirted with; aka if it lands, suggesting we do it together.

    Thoughts?

    btw – this is the same girl from the “bad date” I described earlier..

    Reply
    • Factory says:

      06/11/2018 at 3:00 am

      I’ll add she also told me (indirectly) she is right into that show “Love Island”.

      Not sure if you have it there but its one of those shitty reality shows where hot models get together on a secluded resort, hook up and go nuts. Its on here now. I teased her on that and could be another angle… Dont know (?)

      Been trying to pay attention to girls and read what arouses them. With her comments as “skinny dipping and “Love island”, I originally thought she’s a party girl but reflecting on our conversation it may be some kind of front. Because the times I spiked the conversation with themes of “sex drugs and rock n roll” she went cold / quiet and any time we went deeper in a more romantic direction she perked up.

      Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        06/11/2018 at 3:40 pm

        Been trying to pay attention to girls and read what arouses them. With her comments as “skinny dipping and “Love island”, I originally thought she’s a party girl but reflecting on our conversation it may be some kind of front.

        It all depends on how she perceives you.

        Sexy topics with top guys: take me now!!!

        Sexy topics with bottom guys: show me how thirsty you are, boy! (beta bait)

        Because the times I spiked the conversation with themes of “sex drugs and rock n roll” she went cold / quiet and any time we went deeper in a more romantic direction she perked up.

        How you talk about sex is critical. If you get laid a lot, sex is fun, normal and no big deal. Calibrated spikes (“Hmm, your [eyes, legs, smile] are distracting…”) land because she is happy to be objectified by a cool man.

        From a provider/BF candidate, sex is not on the table before monogamy. She punishes you for going there (cold / quiet) and rewards for romantic BS.

        Of course, given that hypergamy is becoming more and more open, she has no problem sharing that she’s a skinny dipping slut and dreams of hot casual sex with Love island hunks.

        Reply
        • Factory says:

          06/11/2018 at 11:44 pm

          Thanks man. It’s good to hear that.

          It shines a fucking spotlight on the interaction and pretty much sums up the night. I put myself into bottom guy frame early by revealing “the truth” and it went downhill from there.

          It appeared there was a front but it was just because of me and my bottom guy frame.

          I compare to other dates where there is “no truth” (that shit doesnt matter in sexual courtship), just fun top guy, no cares, no barriers – sexual spikes and lots of hahahas, fun kino and things escalate naturally. The inverse of above.

          I fully understand what Yohami means now when he refers to “sexual courtship”.

          Reply
100. Lucretius says:

     06/11/2018 at 4:38 pm

     @yohami

     In an effort to try to continue to iterate, there is another text chat initiated but require suggestions here.

     [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~]

     Me : Hey ;-)
     Her: Hi!

     [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

     The above is a situation that I just cannot figure out a way to handle right given my level of experience towards top guy because she has given me very little except that she is happy for me to contact her.

     Background
     This girl is very nice looking (better than polish posh in all departments) and is coming across as introverted from when I last spoke with her 2 weeks back (same time as theatrics queen which I just walked away from). When I spoke with her the first time, I was fiddling around in rapport conversation with her while speaking with theatrics queen.

     I just happen to see her on my way out speaking with another guy which I knew from before. She didnt recognize me at first and then clicked that I was the guy she briefly met before and then she mentioned that I didn’t get a long with the Theatrics queen which is definitely agreed to and then played up the theatrics from theatrics queen (smiles from girls an guys). At the same time, another girl I knew came behind me and put her arm around my shoulder (she just a friend – no interested from me). The guy that was there was trying to get me more involved in the discussion but I had to get going and I said something to the effect of ‘catchup another time’.

     So here I am with that catchup via text chat.

     The Problem
     The problem I am seeing in the above, is that I don’t see anything (in my eyes) for me to work with in her response. It is just a hi with an exclamation mark (ie. she happy that I am texting her). What I do know is that I must:
     – reward her (for exclamation mark but also for quick response)
     – take the conversation somewhere to get a hahahaha and then get her out

     The bottom guy thought responses
     The possible responses that come up appear to all be bottom guy:
     Me : ;-) How are you? //Too soon use of smilie again for reward and heading into asexual rapport
     Me : Was nice to see you at the drinks //I am putting her above me
     Me : What’s up with you //No reward but then goes into asexual rapport again
     Me : ;-) How did you find the drinks? //Again use of smilie and circling around the drinks (where am I going?)
     Me : You looked great at the drink // Free validation (rewards) but she good looking so me likely beta orbiter if I go this way
     Me : Did you stay long at the drinks after I left? //No reward and I have no idea where this goes
     Me : You were quiet at the first drinks but more lively last time //free validation for introvert? or neg?

     The above is something that I would like to try to get right on this text chat to be able to know how to move forward on this. Suggestions on this part would be good and would like to see if I can get this chat to get her out (ie. at least get this one completely correct).

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/11/2018 at 4:45 pm

       Me: Are you busy? les go out for a drink

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/11/2018 at 4:49 pm

         She will hahah and say shes busy – but this is you setting the proper frame already. You inviting her out NOW is her reward for the immediate compliance and enthusiasm. After she says she is busy ask her what is she doing and set the logistics

         All your girls are DTF

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           06/11/2018 at 5:08 pm

           Sent.

           I need to understand why this was the appropriate response.
           Is it a rule that if the enthusiasm is already high, I just go directly to this type of call to action knowing that she could either say yes or no immediately afterwards?

           In my mind, I am seeing that my end objective is to get her out for drinks and before asking her to drinks, I need to arouse her with a hahahaha (just one). In this case there is no hahaha and I am going straight to asking her out for drinks.

           If she responds with that she is busy, would the text chat continue like this:

           Her: sorry … busy at the moment :( //or something to this effect
           Me : What are you up to at the moment? //Am I not interacting with a wall here?

           Her: Work, At spa, etc blah blah blah
           Me : When are you free? I take you out //As she is more introvert, this sounds better with me leading it stronger

           Is the above right?

           alternative situation
           What if the conversation was going like this:

           Me : Hey ;-)
           Her: Hi

           In the above there is no enthusiasm. How should it progress further?
           She still does reply therefore I must reward somehow.

           Reply
           • Flat Lander says:

             06/11/2018 at 5:46 pm

             We’ll get you there eventually.

             In my mind, I am seeing that my end objective is to get her out for drinks and before asking her to drinks, I need to arouse her with a hahahaha (just one). In this case there is no hahaha and I am going straight to asking her out for drinks.

             No. Your end objective is to bang her.

             Nothing in between is a mandatory step, except for

             increasing her arousal (she is already intrigued, as she’s responding with a nice Hi!)
             leading her relentlessly to sex.

             If your objective is drinks, this communicates that you don’t value yourself high enough to bang her immediately.

             Your objective is sex. This must be clear and unambiguous in your head.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               06/11/2018 at 5:57 pm

               Your point is understood.

               For clarity, when I am referring to ‘objective to get her to drinks’, I am referring to this chat given where I am with this girl.

               Chat -> Drinks -> Sex

               Reply
               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/12/2018 at 7:29 am

                 Chat -> Sex (drinks are optional)

           • YOHAMI says:

             06/11/2018 at 6:10 pm

             The constant in your interactions it that they start with a high peak and then go down until they die in asexuality – so here Im showing you that you can go straight to the point early on if she’s receptive.

             Her “Hi!” is high investment and compliance. That’s the likely the reason why you don’t know what to do with it :-)

             The answer is ‘reward and escalate’

             Normally you could go ‘how are you’, have her response, tease a little, ask her out. But there is where you’re getting lost so we’re skipping it

             The reason for the ‘are you busy?’ is to give her an easy way out. So Im actually asking her for a raincheck to my attempt to fuck her today. This is like saying

             Me: are you available and horny right now? lets go for a fuck

             Im framing it as a given, the only question is when, and Im asking for a dance now. She’ll likely just give you a little wall and a raincheck

             And all that’s possible because (if) she’s that compliant indeed, which her response seems to indicate unless she’s that effusive with everyone

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               06/11/2018 at 6:22 pm

               This is her response:

               Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight. Sorry for that but I appreciate the invitation:-)

               Is the response below (V1) not interacting with a wall (ie she busy tonight)?

               Me : When are you free?

               Alternatively, I can say (V2):

               Me : Message me when you free. We get a drink then

               There is no explicit reward in the above (unless you count me keeping the drinks offer open) and I am also not trying to ‘bust through her wall’ by chasing her for a date when she is free.
               After V2 I would go silent and wait for her to come back.

               I would expect that V2 is the appropriate response here. Correct?

               Also, I understand more but need to understand the ‘how are you’ part.

               Reply
               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/11/2018 at 6:42 pm

                 What is the wall and what is the opening in her response?

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/11/2018 at 7:00 pm

                 The wall is:
                 I already have plans for tonight

                 The opportunity is:
                 … but I appreciate the invite :-)

                 The qualifying herself is:
                 Sorry for that…

                 Perhaps my revised response could be (V1):
                 Me : No problem. Message me when you are free.

                 The “No problem” is deflecting her wall but also taking on her ‘I am sorry’ (reward).
                 The “Message me when you are free” is to focus on the opportunity but being reactive.

                 Another variant could be (V2):
                 Me: No problem. When are you free?

                 The “No problem” is deflecting her wall but also taking on her ‘I am sorry’ (reward).
                 The “When are you free?” is directly taking on the opportunity in an active way. It also builds on her “happy that I invited her”.

                 The V2 is starting to sounds better but still not sure if I am chasing her now.

               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/11/2018 at 7:02 pm

                 Not seeing it yet. What response from here would have been 100% compliance? and what would have been 50% compliance? what would be a direct opening here? and what would be a 100% wall?

                 Don’t send anything yet btw, you’re trying to flirt with a wall

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/11/2018 at 7:11 pm

                 Havent sent anything yet (too late for anything now as well).

                 I am really struggling to see this :-/

                 What response from here would have been 100% compliance?
                 If your previous comment is that I am flirting with wall – I don’t know here.

                 and what would have been 50% compliance?
                 If your previous comment is that I am flirting with wall – I don’t know here.

                 what would be a direct opening here?
                 It is something with her being happy with the invite so I must invite her again some other time.

                 and what would be a 100% wall?
                 if I try to push for seeing her tonight, it would be 100% wall

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/11/2018 at 7:16 pm

                 I think the ‘No problem’ is the flirting with the wall part.

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/11/2018 at 7:31 pm

                 I am thinking this now:

                 100% compliance
                 Me : ;-) Message me when you free

                 50% compliance
                 Me : ;-) When are you free?

       • YOHAMI says:

         06/11/2018 at 4:50 pm

         If she turns out to be free now, bang

         Reply
101. Flat Lander says:

     06/11/2018 at 7:44 pm

     Not seeing it yet. What response from here would have been 100% compliance? and what would have been 50% compliance? what would be a direct opening here? and what would be a 100% wall?

     Original exchange
     Me: Are you busy? let’s go out for a drink
     Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight. Sorry for that but I appreciate the invitation:-)

     My take:

     100% compliance
     Her: Ok! What time?

     50% compliance
     Her: Busy right now, but I may be free later during the week.

     Direct opening
     Her: You’re very direct (smile or wink emoji)

     100% wall
     Her: Sorry, not interested.

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       06/11/2018 at 7:54 pm

       I didn’t think the questions where from her side.
       I understood that it would of been from my side to her.

       if I try on that, I would say similar to Flatlander

       100% compliance
       Her : Sure :-) where you want to go?

       50% compliance
       Her : Have plans tonight but perhaps another time :-)

       Direct opening
       Her : …thank you for the invitation (ie. try inviting me again later on)

       100% wall
       Her : (silence)
       or
       Her : Sorry I am not available

       Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/11/2018 at 8:49 pm

       Right so, here are the variations and replies for each case. This is not about always being able to fuck her right now, but all the responses are consistent with rewarding compliance, escalating on arousal, and deflecting walls or punishing them. As a result, as long as these girls are still around they will all turn into YES eventually

       ================

       100% compliance
       Her: Ok! What time?

       100% compliance means she’s fully in and begging for more, she’s a fully YES girl and likely has been waiting for some time that you make a move

       Me: 8pm, meet me at [XXX]
       Me: Dress sexy ;-)

       There I tell her what to do, twice, because she’s that receptive, it needs a double down

       ===========

       
       50% compliance
       Her: I’d love to but Im working… maybe later during the week?

       Here she’s showing the desire is there but the logistics are unfavorable. You can insist that it must happen and bypass the wall, or accommodate to the wall and arrange for another day. Because the desire is there, you can actually do both

       Me: Boring, quit that job and come have fun
       Her: hahaha
       Me: Im worth it

       That could be enough, but let’s say that she really cant, then you go for logistics later

       Her: I cant… really
       Me: Aight, thursday 8pm
       Her: Sounds good, where?

       Bang.

       ===========

       
       25% compliance
       Her: Busy right now, but I may be free later during the week?

       Her level of investment is low but she opens a raincheck. The ‘may be’ means she’s not even YES now.

       Me: Yeah, I’ll ping you later

       Hooks are off and I may or not ping her later

       ===========

       100% wall
       Her: Sorry, not interested.

       That’s a real wall (girls don’t send this to guys they plan to fuck)

       Me: No problem

       Response is uninvested and non-buthurt

       =========================================

       100% wall plus openings
       Her: Sorry, not interested :-P

       See that emoticon above? this is a girl giving mixed signals, which is actually what most girls will do most of the time early in the courtship. That line and lines like that are games to filter bottom guy from top guy. The bottom guy will go collapse with the wall and try to smash it, while the top guy will bounce this game on her, or interact with the flirt only, without touching the wall

       Me: You’re boring

       Bottom guy: you little girl hurt my feewings!

       There are infinite versions of this as a girl can always mix up hard and soft walls with hard and soft openings and try to mess you up to figure where you’re at, like here:

       Im not interested… and a girl like me likes to be picked up by a man

       There are a million ways to address bs like this and it depends on the girl and what the line actually means. What I’d do here is

       Me: pst, give me your address, I’ll pick you up

       This doesn’t mean that Im actually going to pick her up, Im just calling out her bluff. It may result in she giving me her address which would mean the wall was just a game. Or she could say “no, not interested” then she’d get a little neg for her participation

       Me: Your loss

       =========================================================

       =============================

       =

       Now to this exchange

       
       Me: Hey ;-)
       Her: Hi!
       Me: Are you busy? let’s go for a drink
       Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight. Sorry for that but I appreciate the invitation:-)

       What would have been 100% compliance again?

       Her: Hi! sure let’s meet at 9pm at XXX and fuck my brains out

       She didn’t say this, she said “I have plans”

       Me: Sure I’ll fuck you without a condom, just come over

       What about a mix of compliance and walls?

       Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight but Im free on the weekend

       Me: Fuck your plans, come over

       If you feel like smashing that wall, or

       Me: Sure, I’ll ping you on thursday to catch up

       If you feel like just taking the opportunity

       How about mild compliance?

       Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight, but maybe another time?

       Me: Sure I’ll ping you next time

       Very non invested

       ==============================================

       How about even less compliance, here would be a hard wall, THIS IS WHAT SHE ACTUALLY SENT

       Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight.

       What makes this a hard wall? that there’s no raincheck at all.

       You did a call to action. To that specific call to action she just said NO. The wall is not that she can’t do it tonight, the wall is that there’s no raincheck.

       Again. What is the wall exactly? it’s not that she can’t do it tonight, it’s effectively the

       NO RAINCHECK

       The “when” is the wall. She’s actively suppressing that this can happen at any time. If left to her own devices, this will NEVER happen.

       ==

       But then she wraps this up in a flirt. Why? because she’s still curious sexually and her vagina wants to find out if you’re top or bottom guy

       Sorry for that but I appreciate the invitation:-)

       The ‘sorry for that’ seems genuine, and “I appreciate the invitation” with a smiley as well.

       So taken at face value:

       The wall is the WHEN

       The opening is that she is receptive to you flirting with her and trying to fuck her.

       She’s likely with a bf right now. She doesn’t plan to cheat – yet -, but she’s open to you hitting on her and trying to fuck her. This may eventually result in she ditching or cheating on the bf. This is every girl at some point of the courtship btw

       So anything where you try to go after the WHEN is you pursuing the wall.

       And anything where you just flirt with her is you pursuing her pussy.

       At least if we take this exchange at face value (some times things are not what they seem) so

       =========================================================

       =============================

       =

       Looking at Luc’s responses

       Me: When are you free?

       She didn’t offer a raincheck, so the ‘when’ is the wall. Trying to get her to commit to a day now is trying to push that wall.

       Hey, this could work if she was dtf. Sometimes smashing the wall is needed, but this is, in essence, going for the wall and chasing.

       V2

       Me: Message me when you free. We get a drink then

       Likewise, the WHEN is the wall. This is less invested than the previous but you’re passing the ball to her in a setup where she’s not chasing you at all, so this day when she’ll message you to have sex wont happen, because she’s not aroused enough.

       She first needs to feel ‘the tip of your cock’ so she gathers enough desire to start moving, or turns into a fully yes girl who will do whatever it takes so she can have you. That’s not her yet. So while the ‘ping me when you’re free’ is a sane line most of the time, it doesn’t apply to HER.

       So what applies to her? look at her line

       Her: Hi! I already have plans for tonight. Sorry for that but I appreciate the invitation:-)

       Me: You’re welcome cutie ;-)

       And that’s the end. For now.

       But why?

       Because what she’s reacting to is you flirting with her. So she’s not available or interested or giving you opportunities to fuck her – yet, but she’s into measuring your cock. And she sees you has high value enough that she THANKS YOU for making her feel special and trying to take her out. So here

       Me: You’re welcome cutie ;-)

       I reinforce that cycle, reward her mini compliance, while putting myself on a pedestal, while non chasing, then I flirt with her again.

       After this likely a couple of hours or days will pass and the NON CHASE will finish the reframe that she really missed out on something here.

       So she’ll be back with a ‘sorry I didn’t see the text’ or a ‘haha’ or whatever she has on her toolkit of things to say to get you to invest again and try to fuck her.

       So her little arousal is the opening.

       Focus there. Don’t go escalating where she just said a NO. That’s a trap.

       Unless you’re in a state where you can go like

       Me: Pst, drop your plans, Im more important

       This above can be true if you’ve had enough back and forth and you know she’s plenty of DTF and just playing games.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/11/2018 at 8:59 pm

         After you flirt with her again, when she comes back with a ‘haha’ and bs to keep the interaction coming, then you flirt with her again, then do another call to action

         Me: You’re welcome cutie ;-)
         Her: (hours or days later) hahah
         Her: blah blah blah
         Me: Tease
         Her: haha
         Me: So when are you free? I’ll take you out

         Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/11/2018 at 9:11 pm

         I sent:

         Me: You’re welcome cutie ;-)

         Thank you for this breakdown and also the contrasting examples (really nice detailed response that I can read a few times to get the mechanics in my head). It really explains some mechanics that I was not seeing and also now have a way to measure compliance.

         The important lesson for me here is that I need to look for the walls that are there (ie. written in words – not interested / have plans) and also those that are present but NOT WRITTEN (ie. what was not put there – eg missing raincheck). I didn’t think of thinking about stuff missing.

         Sending the above reply just feels good and I can see how this can work for almost any rejection provided that there is some smilie or something in her rejection outside of a straight no.

         I will open another text discussion tomorrow morning with the shy girl who sent me 7x smilies. the opener will be:

         Me : Hey cutie ;-)
         Her: blah blah
         Me : You free this evening? lets gets a drink // assuming invested response

         If something non-standard comes up, I will post to get your analysis of what is going on.

         Will keep this earlier breakdown in mind while also trying to move towards asking her out that night and see if she offers a raincheck or not. She has a bf that she mentioned but I got the sense that she was looking around as well.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/11/2018 at 9:43 pm

           No prob. Btw try to not inject logistics in the initial call to action, that just creates unnecessary friction, so no to this:

           “You free this evening?’

           And this is better

           “You free? lets gets a drink”

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             06/11/2018 at 9:55 pm

             Noted.

             It is really going through these iterations of text chats that eventually I am seeing (at least some things) in how I should be communicating. I will keep the text chats coming (have one screwed up one from earlier today that I will post Wednesday just to pace things).

             I feel that in person I have more latitude to “mess up” as I can just continue forward and move the attention forward but via text, it has to be precision.

             But doing things like sending ASCII dick pics and just asking the girl to come over is desensitizing me to these things and now I even look back to earlier today and yesterday and start to wonder what all the fuss was on my part. It is turning out as you said in that I am getting in my own way of all this.

             On another item, I don’t mean to press or chase, but your pointers on the most recent drinks iteration would be well appreciated when you have the time and inclination. Next in person iteration is this Friday and would like to keep improving each week in person and day to day on the text chats.

             Eventually I should get everything (enough) right to start seeing some solid results.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/12/2018 at 7:36 am

               Sure

               =====================================

               1) Start going to other events where you don’t see returning faces. If you go to the same social circle all the time and try to bang every girl and all of them reject you, you do down on the pecking order in every iteration. It would be different if you’d be banging them though (you become the new king there). The point is, find new places where you can do little improvements instead of exhausting one single pool

               2) Your interactions sound fun and alive, now they need sexual tension. Add flirting and negging to the mix. Flirt with girls, flirt with guys (dominance hierarchy, don’t suck their dicks), neg girls, neg guys, stomp on more boundaries, tell people what to do, mess things up. Get a girl you’re talking to and bring her to another one and tell them they should start banging each other. Etc, turn up the dial. Here also going to new places you’ll find that it’s easier than trying to change stablished dynamics with the people you see all the time

               3) Embody dominance. You’re being alpha (the initiator) but not Top Guy – yet. Now that you’re leading and initiating and setting the pace and the flow, focus on WINNING and getting what you want every time, and in a way that is non-needy and detached, but still making everything happen – that’s the Han Solo thing.

               Reply
               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/12/2018 at 7:52 am

                 For example, with the girl who gave you her phone after feeling ‘left out’

                 Instead of doing the routine of ‘let’s continue in another place’ skip the bs. Ask the girl if she wants to ‘hang out’ later. She’ll ask ‘today?”, say “later today, later, whatever” with a smirk, her response will be, right there, yes or no to sex with you. If she’s dubious invite her for adventure, if she jumps into it reward it, if she dismisses you neg her.

                 That as opposed to “let’s continue somewhere else” “I got a class tomorrow” “uh… ok”

                 Too many proxies there. This isn’t about going to another bar, it is about fucking her, tonight tomorrow or soon.

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/12/2018 at 8:29 am

                 Your point on me staying in the same social circle is correct in that it is becoming always the same faces and not good in the long run. I will cancel this Friday event and stay off for next 3 events to give a bit of space.

                 Signed up for a Wednesday social (drinks but new faces) and also club event on Saturday.

                 I am sensing that weekday events (when available) are going to be suit and weekends is going to be jeans.

                 Will report back what happens

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/12/2018 at 8:58 am

                 I think there are barriers in my mind that is preventing me from moving from the social to the sexual (ie pulling the trigger) and this is what we saw earlier with asking polish over or sending dick pic.

                 I feel that I need to push myself more in this area knowing that I could likely miss the mark a few times but at least I will move past the barrier in my mind. At the same time, I could also higher mark.

                 For the new posh girl, I need to give it 1.5 weeks to let the previous text chat fade before I am going to ping her.

               • BlueValentine says:

                 06/12/2018 at 2:11 pm

                 For the new posh girl, I need to give it 1.5 weeks to let the previous text chat fade before I am going to ping her.

                 Ok, this is what I don’t get: Aren’t we supposed to, as Top Guys, just let her go. So no pinging again, ever. Now it’s her turn to either text back in a week, a month, a year, or never?

               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/12/2018 at 2:34 pm

                 Blue

                 Ok, this is what I don’t get: Aren’t we supposed to, as Top Guys, just let her go. So no pinging again, ever. Now it’s her turn to either text back in a week, a month, a year, or never?

                 Depends on context, but the framing is off.

                 You’re not ‘supposed to’ as a top guy – as a top guy you make the rules

                 You don’t just ‘let her go’ – you’re non needy, because you don’t need her.

                 The main reason for you not pinging her again is that the window is gone and now you’re banging someone who was quicker to comply to your pings and flirts. What’s the point of pursuing a non responsive girl when there are a few dozen who are jumping on your cock whenever you make it available? you’re busy

                 So with that out of the way – it’s perfectly fine to ping a girl who went silent

                 Like with everything it’s not the action but who is making it, it’s the who not the what

                 When you ping her again, are you top or bottom guy? are you going for arousal or are you splatting yourself against a wall? are you leading or following? are you the one with value, or are you trying to steal the value from her?

102. Factory says:

     06/12/2018 at 12:24 am

     Yohami

     Some of the examples with Luc are reminding me of a current text interaction I’m in where she’ll go quiet after a call to action, sometimes just silence after a ping. I always leave it there but she always eventually comes back (a day, couple of days, 5 days) with something:

     H: Morning Factory sorry I didn’t respond blab la bla
     H: bla bla I should have more time next week

     H: Hey Factory sorry I didn’t reply blab la bla
     H: How was work today?

     H: Hey sorry I haven’t been in touch
     H: How are you?

     Ive been replying with things like “no probs”, “that’s fine” or “its ok” blab la… like you have suggested.

     Should I continue down this path of saying “its ok” all the time?

     She always says sorry and offers vague rainchecks but I get the feeling I need to put a stop to this nonsense…

     How?

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 7:18 am

       Tell her she’s got one last chance and that she’s blew it X times

       Ive been replying with things like “no probs”, “that’s fine” or “its ok” blab la… like you have suggested.

       If she’s just putting walls don’t tell her it’s all ok, you’ve got to either push the wall aside or neg her. The “it’s ok” is validation, use it when she’s actually giving you a path to move forward, like “I can’t friday but Im free on sunday”, that’d be fine

       Reply
       • Factory says:

         06/12/2018 at 7:35 am

         Thanks man

         I think its time to neg. Her last message was yesterday:

         H: Hey sorry I haven’t been in touch
         H: How are you?

         And I replied, yesterday:

         M: Hey, its ok
         M: I’m awesome. And you?

         H: [silence]

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/12/2018 at 7:41 am

           Yeah, there you’re using ‘it’s ok’ to reward her silence, so she gives it again to you.

           H: Hey sorry I haven’t been in touch
           H: How are you?

           Me: Yeah what’s up with that

           There Im ignoring the attempt at rapport and calling her out. If you do this

           Me: It’s ok

           That means all girls go silent on you, then

           Me: Im awesome. And you?

           You go for rapport – with a girl who’s giving you silence. Since you don’t like the silence, don’t take it, nor say ‘its ok’, instead break her silence by teasing her, negging her, or telling her what to do

           Me: Who’s this?

           Reply
           • Factory says:

             06/12/2018 at 7:46 am

             Damn, I knew it wasnt right

             But got it now…

             Many thanks

             Reply
103. BlueValentine says:

     06/12/2018 at 3:11 pm

     Hey Yohami, I was reading some of Krauser’s texts with “resistant” girls, and honestly following the Yohami rules, it seems to me this would be shit test. Yet, he ended up fucking these girls and not losing them. So could you please say what you would have written differently? I provide also links to where he explains his thinking behind the texts:

     Belgrade Girl (BG) + Nick Krauser (NK):

     BG: There you are :) :) You’re reading my mind. I just wanted to ask you something considering your perverted thoughts. Wouldn’t it be pointless meeting up for a drink, tomorrow night, if you want to get laid and I don’t?

     NK: It’s tasty cola. There’s no perversion in my mind! What are you doing now?

     BG: Hahha oh there is. And that’s not an answer to my question…
     BG: I’m going to take a shower
     BG: I have to get up early

     NK: Enjoy your shower. See if you can wash all of that inconvenient logic away [shower imoji]

     BG: But I just pointed facts
     BG: Nothing inconvenient
     BG: Totally logic

     NK: I never try to make anyone, man or woman, obliged to give me anything. I don’t see any problem here.

     BG: So why do you feel obligated now? [Shocked Emoji] To give ME something?

     NK: No. You misunderstand.

     BG: I misunderstood what?

     NK: I never said I feel obligated.

     BG: Ok ok. I get it now :) i reversed it

     NK: [Thumbs up]

     BG: So. I don’t feel obligated to give you something…
     BG: Whatever you meant by that

     NK: I don’t want you to feel obligated :) that’s why I don’t see a problem.

     BG: I can’t be sure. I don’t know you…
     BG: Don’t forget we met just a few days ago

     NK: [Girl Name], I want to meet yo for a drink. You don’t need to promise anything more than that
     NK: Oh, and to laugh at my jokes. Of course :-p

     BG: I think I laughed last time? As I promised? :D

     NK: Yes, I felt so cool and manly [Biceps Emoji. Cool Man Emoji] More please!

     BG: Ego increasing [Biceps Emoji]
     BG: Ok. You answered my question. See… it wasn’t that hard ;) ;)

     NK: [Thumbs Up Empji]

     BG: Ok. Not a typing type. :D Good night

     NK: Good night. Sleep well [Night Star Emoji]

     Nick’s explanation of the logic behind the texting: https://krauserpua.com/2015/08/04/text-game-clinic-last-minute-derailment/

     Unknown Girl (UG) and Nick Krauser (NK):

     UG: Hey, I’m sorry I can’t do this. You are amazing, physical you have everything I like in one man but this is not what I am looking for, I tried to tell to myself I could do it, go there have some sex fun whatever and come back home like nothing happen but I can’t.

     NK: So that sexy underwear and fiery passion will go to waste tonight :/ how disappointing!

     UG: I’m sorry to disappoint you but im crazy i love sex but not like this. You turn me on a lot you have no idea i think you are a very interesting person but i can’t do it going out from work and go running to have sex with someone i just don’t know. Not so that crazy. Lol

     NK: I think you’ll be masturbating this evening ? I hope you have a good imagination, so you can vividly feel my hard dick as it slides into you… in and out… until you can’t control your screams ?

     UG: s nothing that i don’t used to do in this last months ah ahahahah and i am good doing it

     NK: Imagine I’m in my suit, back from a hard day at the office…

     UG: You are trouble for me…

     NK: So I put down my briefcase, I’m a bit distracted.. Tell me what you’ll be wearing

     UG: Just an apron and high heel (just today)

     Nick’s explanation here: https://krauserpua.com/2012/11/21/reframing-away-a-girls-anti-slut-defense/

     Also, Yohami, in his memoir Nick talks about some girls whose default way of being is being No girls. Including the hottest girl he’s ever slept with, which was a 29 years old Russian model who only has slept with 2 men her whole life and fell in love with Krauser.

     Her default is to put walls to all men, 100% of the time, with no openings. And then the men who find a way around that or are persistent enough could get to her.

     Also, a 26 years old virgin who said the same. She doesn’t know why but she put walls for all men and said no one was able to handle them.

     So how does that make sense from a Top Guy frame? Even these texts, how can they end up in sex? I see rapport in there and things like that.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 3:36 pm

       As much as I’ve criticized K in the past – he’s just dealing with these difficult girls properly. See how he’s not smashing against resistance but setting these walls aside, not taking them seriously, and doubling down in arousal? not just in arousal but these girls SPECIFICALLY are verbalizing what their arousal is

       Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 6:54 pm

       Comments

       Nick talks about some girls whose default way of being is being No girls.

       There are girls who are default No girls. There are also girls who like to eat their own poo and puke on your mouth. Why is that your problem though?

       Her default is to put walls to all men, 100% of the time, with no openings. And then the men who find a way around that or are persistent enough could get to her.

       Sure. Same question.

       But even is these are the girls you want to engage with – aka you love to be put down over and over and prove your worth and endure mistreatment… what kind of man will win her over? one that surrenders to her walls or one that becomes a bottom guy she can abuse?

       If the man who can have her is a top guy who won’t put up with her shit – why would top guy try to get a girl who has nothing but shit to give?

       And if the man who can have her is a bottom guy who will put the work and endure the walls that are now bridges – do you really want to be that man?

       In short there’s no win there. And the reason mr K is getting a lot of No girls is that he’s also screening for these girls. He’s likely willing to put the work so he screens for girls who will make him do the work. More power to him if that’s what rocks his boat.

       Has nothing to do with Game – we’re talking about tastes and preferences.

       Still in the two conversations you shared he’s doubling down on arousal and pushing away the walls, so he’s putting the work but it’s of the ‘top guy’ quality.

       So how does that make sense from a Top Guy frame? Even these texts, how can they end up in sex? I see rapport in there and things like that.

       These texts have mixed signals – they have both walls and openings, and K is going for the openings (arousal, compliance) and pushing away / ignoring the bs. Which is what you should do.

       There’s no rapport coming from K and specially there’s no frame clash, even though the girls are clearly trying to bait him with it.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/12/2018 at 6:56 pm

         fix = what kind of man will win her over? one that [ makes her surrender ] her walls or one that becomes a bottom guy she can abuse?

         Reply
         • BlueValentine says:

           06/12/2018 at 7:47 pm

           To be fair to K, he is not screening for girls whose default is No.

           He just noticed that girls who stay virgin until they are 25+ (or have only fucked one man and then spent years without sex until they are 25+) are default No Girls.

           So from his memoirs those are like 5% of the girls he meets. He just doesn’t screen them out since he likes girls that have very little sexual experience and so he can be the first man to fuck their mouths and their asses (and their pussies if they are virgin).

           In Daygame Infinite, Krauser recommends specifically to try not to deal with girls that make it hard for you to game them. To go for girls that give you openings. That’s what he focuses on.

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             06/12/2018 at 8:46 pm

             Ah well I hope so – it would be too much work to get into game as seriously as K has done to go chase No type girls :-)

             Reply
104. Lucretius says:

     06/12/2018 at 8:16 pm

     What a texting disaster that just happened with new posh girl.
     I wasnt expecting anything to come back from her an this happens and it all goes wrong quickly.

     [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~]
     [line 01] Her: [Photo of the drinks events with me her and other guy during story telling]
     [line 02] Her: We all looked so engaged in this conversation!! [emojie crying laughter]
     [line 03] Me : haha …
     [line 04] Me : [Other guy Name] looks deep in thought and you look perplexed
     [line 05] Her: precisely
     [line 06] Her: an you are like “I think I will drink to that!”
     [line 07] Me : yes, the funny things I see guys doing when speaking to girls
     [line 08] Me : He is a nice guy, but sometimes the words that come out of his mouth amazes me
     [line 09] Her: [Other guy Name] you mean? Or referring to yourself in the third person?
     [line 10] Me : [Other guy Name] of course – Be kinda weird if I was talking about me like this.
     [line 11] Me : How was your yoga class?
     [line 12] Her: pilates
     [line 13] Her: super nice
     [line 14] Her: really feel like I am getting stronger
     [line 15] Me : That’s great! Gives you the strength to carry groceries to make dinner for me [emojie wink]
     [line 16] Her: haha smooth
     [line 17] Her: hey have you checked out any of the jazz events? [Other guy Name] mentioned they can be nice
     [line 18] Me : … like melted butter on bread that prepared for me as part of breakfast
     [line 19] Me : You a good cook right? I think you have the skills

     [~~~~ Mental breakdown ~~~~]
     [line 01] Her: [Photo of the drinks events with me her and other guy during story telling]
     [line 02] Her: We all looked so engaged in this conversation!! [emojie crying laughter]
     She is making a joke about how engaged in the conversation we were but it is sarcasm

     [line 03] Me : haha …
     Here I am rewarding

     [line 04] Me : [Other guy Name] looks deep in thought and you look perplexed
     I am describing what I am actually seeing

     [line 05] Her: precisely
     [line 06] Her: an you are like “I think I will drink to that!”
     Here she is describing what she was seeing

     [line 07] Me : yes, the funny things I see guys doing when speaking to girls
     Here I fuck up because I am continuing to talk about the other guy as my mind was stuck on this track. This whole line is completely fucked up on my part

     [line 08] Me : He is a nice guy, but sometimes the words that come out of his mouth amazes me
     I recognize my fuckup in the previous line and dont want it to be a discussion about guys and girl or about this guy

     [line 09] Her: [Other guy Name] you mean? Or referring to yourself in the third person?
     I dont know why should would think I am talking in third person myself. It almost sounds like she is trying to put me down

     [line 10] Me : [Other guy Name] of course – Be kinda weird if I was talking about me like this.
     I reply as the above but this conversation is also going no where

     [line 11] Me : How was your yoga class?
     I stack immediately afterwards to move it elsewhere. Want to get her out to drinks

     [line 12] Her: pilates
     [line 13] Her: super nice
     [line 14] Her: really feel like I am getting stronger
     She corrects me on my previous statement

     [line 15] Me : That’s great! Gives you the strength to carry groceries to make dinner for me [emojie wink]
     I take advantage of the above to roleplay a little and get the direction somewhere else

     [line 16] Her: haha smooth
     She likes it (aroused that I was smooth)

     [line 17] Her: hey have you checked out any of the jazz events? [Other guy Name] mentioned they can be nice
     And stacks immediately again she is trying to make rapport conversation with me. I have no interest in this.

     [line 18] Me : … like melted butter on bread that prepared for me as part of breakfast
     I am trying to double down on the ‘smooth part’. Just came out terribly

     [line 19] Me : You a good cook right? I think you have the skills
     Now trying to move it to something about her and me. The cooking topic came up because of the groceries discussion. What a terrible topic for me to talk about (must get it out of my head).

     [~~~~ General Remarks ~~~~]
     Dang the above feels freaking awkward but at least it was better than going down the road to rapport.
     The text chat hung at the above point. Her interest is definitely going down.

     While none of the above really matters, I dont want to open her further for like two months or so just to get the ‘terrible taste’ of the above text chat out of my mouth.

     Any suggestions on how the above could of been turned around at the individual points would be appreciated.

     Reply
     • BlueValentine says:

       06/12/2018 at 8:42 pm

       [line 17] Her: hey have you checked out any of the jazz events? [Other guy Name] mentioned they can be nice

       I think she wanted you invite her to the jazz event. I think this was a big IOI.

       Rather than focusing on the specific lines (which is important), I think the problem is that she was leading the conversation and you were reacting.

       She was fishing for you to take the lead and take her out. Something concrete, not just roleplay.

       For example, after line 17, something like this would have been a good way to take control and move it forward to sex:

       You: When are you available? I’ll take you to the jazz event ;-)

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/12/2018 at 8:49 pm

         Yeah she’s leading and Luc is missing the opportunities – worse, Luc is scared of the openings :-D this shit cracks me up

         Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 8:52 pm

       Dude, she got aroused and wants that you do a call to action and take her out, which is why she’s bringing up the ‘jazz events’. The reason you feel this is a disaster is that you are missing the window and you’re insisting on your tease BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO HER. So she just offered you an easy bang and you’re focused on doing frame clash for whatever reason.

       Yes you’re punishing compliance again. Go back and fix it.

       ==============

       Me: jazz events? not sure, let’s go to one and find out?

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 9:03 pm

         I am fucking blind !!!

         Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 9:06 pm

         There was something in my head that I needed to ask her out but here she is doing it for me. I really don’t understand what is wrong with me here.

         Reply
     • Flat Lander says:

       06/12/2018 at 9:03 pm

       She opens you with a photo ping. This is good. She’s wants something (tbd) from you
       She inserts another man in the photo (indirect bait) and then at line 17 (direct bait).

       This is standard female social tactics, moving the pawns on the board. That guy is a pawn, a distraction/wall on your road to her pussy.

       You bite on that bait and chew on it with gusto. The more you talk about him, the more status you grant him and the more indirect you become in getting to your objective.

       As a rule, I am not interested in talking about specific men in her orbit.

       “referring to yourself in the third person”: great opportunity for outrageous asshole king roleplay “Shut up, wench, while We are speaking. Bring me my food and make it quich or we will cut your head off.”
       [line 11] Me : How was your yoga class?:

       Gay as fuck (but you know it)

       smooth is not arousal as she immediately switched to jazz events.
       You then keep plowing with cooking roleplay while she has moved the convo to jazz/sex with the other guy.

       6 The entire convo is rapport. Chatting about common friiends, yoga, cooking, jazz. Zero movement towards sex.

       Better:

       [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~]
       [line 01] Her: [Photo of the drinks events with me her and other guy during story telling]
       [line 02] Her: We all looked so engaged in this conversation!! [emojie crying laughter]
       [line 03] Me : I’m just irresistible. Thinking about getting into politics. You’ll be my secret mistress and we’ll escape to the Caiman islands once I get busted.
       [line 04] Her : hahaha, you are bad
       [line 05] Me : I just take what I want. Are you free this week?

       Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 9:05 pm

       Pay attention

       [line 02] Her: We all looked so engaged in this conversation!! [emojie crying laughter]

       Why is she talking to you?

       Do you think she opens guys and starts doing rapport for no reason?

       Focus: she’s talking to you because she wants sex. And EVERYTHING she tells you is conveying the message, it’s telling you how to bang her. She’s doing chit chat to give you a playground to escalate and take her. So look at HER (not her dress!) and watch out. How is she telling you to bang her?

       So she likes to look at other people in awe and judge them but she’s friendly. In all this is a roleplay of looking at the past and family pictures. I call right now that she’s a family girl.

       Here’s your bottom guy starting to interfere

       [line 10] Me : [Other guy Name] of course – Be kinda weird if I was talking about me like this.

       You make yourself be weird by putting the word weird on you

       Me: Im talking about the other guy, of course! I don’t talk of myself in the third person
       Me: You’re weird :-)

       See? who’s the judge and who’s judged?

       ==========

       Here your bottom guy REALLY too over, pay attention

       [line 16] Her: haha smooth

       See the HAHA? aroused. Nice. She calls you smooth. You got a +10 bonus for this.

       You know you want to bang her right? for that you need to make a call to action. You are not making any. So she just got an arousal peak and now she’s starting to make the moves for you.

       [line 17] Her: hey have you checked out any of the jazz events? [Other guy Name] mentioned they can be nice

       She just invited you to a jazz event. Do you need more clues?

       And stacks immediately again she is trying to make rapport conversation with me. I have no interest in this.

       wtf are you talking about :-D

       What do you think she’s doing the whole convo? the only purpose of this chat from her side of view is to get the vibe and give you opportunities to arouse her and fuck her. You just aroused her so she wants to be fucked.

       What rapport?

       There’s something going on that you have to pay attention, figure out and dismantle – and is this pattern of punishing compliance as soon as you encounter it. It seems to mess you up. And then you go escalate on walls, like when you started flirting with the butter on the bread, it cracks me up man

       The way to fix this is simple: slow it down. Start asking yourself all the time what the arousal spot is and how she is HELPING YOU seduce her. You need influx of new information and can’t rely on your gut response. Slow it down.

       And now take her out to a jazz event or something and give her some dick.

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 9:10 pm

         I sent as requested and this is her response.

         Her: Yeah I’d like to check one out. Let’s see if [other guy name] wants to join as well

         I would expect to say:

         Me : It would be more fun if it’s just me and you

         Approved to send?

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           06/12/2018 at 9:16 pm

           going to send this before she goes to sleep and I screw things up even further

           Reply
         • Flat Lander says:

           06/12/2018 at 9:19 pm

           See what letting other men into your shared reality does to the seduction?
           The frame (attention whore and her orbiters) is a sticky, sticky swamp.

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             06/12/2018 at 9:22 pm

             Noted. I need my fucking head examined!!!

             Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/12/2018 at 9:27 pm

           Yes send that

           Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 9:35 pm

         I sent message:

         Me : It would be more fun if just you and me

         But I think she has now gone to sleep as it remains unread.

         If I read the messages again, I think she must of thought I was making a ‘food / cooking joke’ and didn’t answer her question. It was <1min response from her when I sent yohami line.

         I don’t know where I am here but I likely avoiding a complete meltdown just because of me using question + statement. If it was just question, she may have answered it and I would of fucked up everything. Will see what comes back tomorrow (assuming I didn’t really fuck it up with a 1h20min gap in response)

         There is really a problem on relying on my gut because it is based on previous conditioning which is all bottom guy hence I am fucking up in many ways. I am also somewhat ‘tainted’ from recent chats from polish, poolside, troublemaker, etc and this is affecting me that I think I am always going down rapport street.

         @FlatLander
         On the ‘how was yoga’ point, this was a reflex just to STOP discussion about the other guy and me and the drinks. I knew that it was pilates before and just said yoga as suggested by yohami to not be ‘remembered and cared’. The joke of her being good and strong to carry the groceries was reflex. I have this general reflex but it also doesn’t always go well which is what happened on the ‘butter on bread’ follow on. Ironically, I need to stop thinking that I need to double down and triple down on the jokes because it is working against me.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/12/2018 at 9:39 pm

           Girls have a lot of tolerance, this one looks salvable

           Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/12/2018 at 9:41 pm

           Btw when she talks about inviting the other guy, likely (not always) she’s trying to force you make your choice of if this is a date or a group setting.

           She already forced you to invite her to jazz stuff (SHE MADE THAT HAPPEN)

           Now she’s forcing you to compete with the other guy

           She’s certainly funneling you through her screening mechanism

           Time that you take the lead, and lead

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             06/12/2018 at 9:51 pm

             This ‘girl speak’ is something I don’t have a feel for yet – I need more iterations.

             I can understand some girl conversations (ie. they say one thing but are actually talking about another) but when the girl is trying to hint to me (like this girl), I am fucking clueless given lack of experience here.

             I have to solidify the RULE in my head that if a girl is opening me, it is about sex. Let me repeat that to myself again. If a girl I have just met opens me via chat, she is wanting sex and I must pay attention to what she is saying in the context of sex.

             Somewhere before I had read a line from you that was along the lines of:
             “It would be more fun if it is just you and me”. I had used this before with the office girl and saw her positive response which is why I instinctively was looking to use it here. Because I was fucking everything up before I needed a 2nd opinion to make sure it was right to avoid another ‘polish text disaster’

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/12/2018 at 10:16 pm

               The line is fine

               The thing to keep an eye on is you have to lead instead of following her around

               Reply
               • Lucretius says:

                 06/13/2018 at 6:26 am

                 So when she comes back, it is for me to:
                 – Find a jazz events
                 – Get a good time slot and propose this time slot
                 – Arrange the logistics of the jazz event
                 – Fend off any idea of another guy coming along
                 – Take control of the evening and move her around all the way to my apartment
                 – Bang

               • YOHAMI says:

                 06/13/2018 at 6:49 am

                 Because this was her idea, these things you mention are doing busy work (usually beta / bottom guy) and making HER plans happen.

                 Leading means you initiate things and you set the pace, like how you did at the drinks.

                 So you initiate, then you make it happen: Your idea and your goal.

                 Not you doing the work to make her idea happen

                 ==============

                 So no, when she comes back, it’s not your time to be a good beta bottom guy boy

                 It’s time for you to flirt, tease, escalate, command, lead, take her out, BANG HER

                 :-D

                 Don’t forget what this is about, get on track.

                 And the jazz event doesn’t even need to happen.

                 You can ask her out to do something else today

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/13/2018 at 7:21 am

                 I understand intellectually but a bit stuck on how to move this around to just a drinks at a bar (near my place).

                 To tease her, I am going to have to build on something jazz or music and move around there (without too many lines) and get the hahahaha.

                 How do I then just change the venue to where I want? Is it just:

                 Me : Instead of going to jazz, we go to a bar cafe near the water.

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/13/2018 at 7:28 am

                 I could start a tease with:

                 Me : Are you trying to serenade me with jazz music and get me all hyponotized?

                 The above can get a laugh from her but it also risks her saying no. most likely she will be saying no. I don’t know if this is heading in the wrong direction???

                 Her: hahaha … no I am not // maybe she puts in a smilie or not

                 I could then say:

                 Me : Well, just to be safe, lets go to a bar on the water near my place. When are you free?

               • Lucretius says:

                 06/13/2018 at 7:42 am

                 She came back and it all looks to be over:

                 Her: hey [Lucretius], I don’t want to give the wrong message but I am really looking for a friendship

                 I think I made enough screw up last night to earn the above

105. Lucretius says:

     06/12/2018 at 9:04 pm

     Here is the chat from the smilies girl (happening thoughout the day and before new posh girl)

     [~~~~ Background ~~~~]
     This girl has a boyfriend and judging by the photo of her and him on the whatsapp, he looks ‘beta’ based on his body language.
     Either way, she has a boyfriend.

     [~~~~ Text Chat ~~~~]
     [line 01] Me : Hey cutie [emojie wink]
     [line 02] Her: Hi there! :)
     [line 03] Me : You free? Let’s get a drink

     //After 4 hours
     [line 04] Her: I’m sorry I’ve to work now but maybe we will see each other again at the next drinks event?
     [line 05] Me : Boring, quit that job and come have fun

     // After 45 min
     [line 06] Her: I know right, but in order to come have fun I need some money so I’ve to work
     [line 07] Me : Fun with me just requires you

     //After 1.5 hours
     [line 08] Her: Hahaha ok that’s smooth [emojie crying laugher]
     [line 09] Me : [emojie wink] //message unread
     [line 10] Me : When are you free? Let’s get that drink or something //message unread

     [~~~~ Analysis ~~~~]
     [line 01] Me : Hey cutie [emojie wink]
     This was the planned opener and is me flirting with her

     [line 02] Her: Hi there! :)
     She responses and is happy to hear from me

     [line 03] Me : You free? Let’s get a drink
     I then get to the point and ask her out for drinks

     [line 04] Her: I’m sorry I’ve to work now but maybe we will see each other again at the next drinks event?
     She takes really long to respond which means she is thinking about it. Here there is 1 wall, 1 opportunity and 1 trap (wall)

     Wall = “I’m sorry I’ve to work…”
     Opportunity = “…now…”
     Trap (wall) = “… but maybe we will see each other again at the next drinks event?”

     The wall is clear to see – she is busy
     The opportunity is that she is busy NOW. So i interpret that she is interested
     The Trap (wall) is the raincheck for maybe at next drinks event. If I was to build on this, I would be going nowhere and would be slot into the ‘guy at drinks’ category

     Given that there is some semi compliance, I decide to push away the wall.

     [line 05] Me : Boring, quit that job and come have fun
     This is the Yohami line and fits perfectly. I neg the wall that work is boring and that I am more fun

     [line 06] Her: I know right, but in order to come have fun I need some money so I’ve to work
     She then tried to rationalize her wall and I see three pieces of information

     Agreement / compliance = “I know right …”
     Justification / Qualification = “…but in order to come have fun I need some money …”
     Wall = “…so I’ve to work”

     I chose to focus on the qualification as there is still interest from her there

     [line 08] Her: Hahaha ok that’s smooth [emojie crying laugher]
     I appear to hit the spot with her hahahaha

     [line 09] Me : [emojie wink] //message unread
     I reward with a wink. Message is received but she has not read it on whatsapp.

     [line 10] Me : When are you free? Let’s get that drink or something //message unread
     Restart my call to action. Message is received but she has not read it on whatsapp.

     [~~~~ General Notes ~~~~]
     The part that I feel that I did right in the above was pushing away her wall and reframing her justification which got me the hahaha
     The part that I am not sure about is if (and how) I should of doubled down on her hahahaha

     There is nothing more for me todo but I felt good in the above because I was not in rapport territory with her which was what I was thinking but didnt type.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/12/2018 at 9:26 pm

       This one is better in that you’re going for it, but you’re stuck on one note and not interacting with her. You’re doing your solo act, without progressing towards her, so you’re literally at the same distance all the time, which means you’re being stopped by an invisible wall, so she’ll be creeped about it at some point.

       =========

       See how you’re stuck in one single note:

       [line 03] Me : You free? Let’s get a drink
       [line 05] Me : Boring, quit that job and come have fun
       [line 07] Me : Fun with me just requires you
       [line 10] Me : When are you free? Let’s get that drink or something

       Pushy chihuahua style, just rephrasing and stuck. This is still WAY better than kicking around the bush and talking about tight clothing and butter. But you need to start interacting with the girl if you want success

       Let’s see her side

       [line 04] Her: I’m sorry I’ve to work now but maybe we will see each other again at the next drinks
       [line 06] Her: I know right, but in order to come have fun I need some money so I’ve to work
       [line 08] Her: Hahaha ok that’s smooth [emojie crying laugher]

       Do you see the range? there are doors, walls, opportunities, compliance, arousal, walls and more.

       You need to hit on her arousal and deflect or bounce or neg or disarm or just ignore the walls. You can’t do that by pressing the same note on the piano all the time

       ===============

       [line 01] Me : Hey cutie [emojie wink]
       [line 02] Her: Hi there! :)
       

       She’s dtf

       [line 03] Me : You free? Let’s get a drink

       Already sounds robotic but I understand what you’re doing. Skipping all the bs and going to the point. That’s valuable.

       Because you are NOT pinging her desire and getting her compliance first, most times than not this kind of direct call to action will make the girl set a wall. I said so when I asked you to just do the call to action. In that case it was just to set the proper frame and get her to do a raincheck. Look at what she did

       
       [line 04] Her: I’m sorry I’ve to work now but maybe we will see each other again at the next drinks event?

       “sorry I have to work” is the wall, which was expected. So is there a raincheck?

       “we will see each other at the drinks” bang – that’s the opening and she’s more invested already than the other girl you tried this on. So she’s open to the possibility, just not now, maybe. I’ll call this a 25% compliance, which is plenty to escalate with.

       How to escalate with it? I don’t have any info on the girl but what I’d do here is make this about her and me with either roleplay or a tease, then I’d ask her out again

       Me: Im not sure they will let you again at the drinks after you XXX
       Her: hahah
       Me: And (tag, tag tag)
       Her: hahaha
       Me: Well I’d like to take you out to X, can you on [Day]?

       [line 05] Me : Boring, quit that job and come have fun

       This is a nice line when dealing with a hard wall. But it also means you decided to interact with the wall instead of interacting with her compliance.

       See the pattern?

       [line 06] Her: I know right, but in order to come have fun I need some money so I’ve to work

       Here the ‘money’ thing would become another room for roleplay storytelling tease etc. She’s just giving you more ammo.

       [line 07] Me : Fun with me just requires you

       You’re hitting that sole note. The good part is you’re going for the kill. The bad part is you’re not aiming to the targets she’s giving you. Entering frame clash

       [line 08] Her: Hahaha ok that’s smooth [emojie crying laugher]

       She’s DTF. Man you must be so good looking, all the girls are fucking DTF and your game sucks :D

       The killing you’re going to make after you learn to do this – priceless.

       [line 09] Me : [emojie wink]

       Reward and flirt to her flirting – good! actually here you do interact with her. First time in the convo

       [line 10] Me : When are you free? Let’s get that drink or something

       It feels as if you’re trying to exhaust the wall. You’re certainly not trying to arouse her.

       Because she’s DTF she may as well give you pussy because you’re being insistent, or she may decide it’s not a trade up and block you. It’s a flip coin.

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 9:44 pm

         Thanks for the feedback.

         On this, it doesn’t matter so much to me if I have her or not. I am trying to solve these internal issue (oh the fucking issues that are inside my head).

         The important part for me is that I DID NOT WADDLE INTO RAPPORT which would of been how things would of been 2 months back.

         Your point of the ‘one note’ is valid but I didn’t know how to play with the other things.
         Can you give a few suggestions? It would help give my brain something to work with.

         In general, I seem todo a bit better (if only a bit) when I see what alternative answers would be. This would explain why my social reflex is very good in person but in trying to put that to the girl, I will miss all the opportunities and play with all the walls which is exactly what you are seeing happening in all my exchanges.

         The only way I can think of progressing, is to:
         – keep iterating and fucking up
         – have Yohami + FlatLander correct me
         – use corrected information for next iteration
         – repeat

         On the aspect of putting the word ‘weird’ on me, this is coming from social conditioning (ie. don’t pick or make fun of anyone else). Obviously this is messing me over in multiple ways. It is these small things that I need to have pointed out to me because I don’t see them at all.

         Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/12/2018 at 10:01 pm

         Me: Im not sure they will let you again at the drinks after you XXX
         Her: hahah
         Me: And (tag, tag tag)
         Her: hahaha
         Me: Well I’d like to take you out to X, can you on [Day]?

         This is valuable and I can see how I can work with this. It would fall in well with my natural joke reflex.

         Can you suggest any other ‘pattern’ to work with?
         I can naturally tease a girl or a guy on something but when I am naturally doing this, I am not thinking wall / opportunities. I NEED MORE DATA to know where to target and how it should flow.

         I have been sticking to your lines to get a proper feel for this because if I invent my own lines I will likely be doing something of flirting with a wall. But eventually I will be able to construct my own lines later on.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/12/2018 at 10:17 pm

           Focus on the main issue at the moment: learn to correctly identify compliance / arousal, and reward these, vs walls / obstacles, and learn to not reward these

           That alone is the 80%

           Reply
106. Flat Lander says:

     06/13/2018 at 6:56 am

     So when she comes back, it is for me to:
     – Find a jazz events
     – Get a good time slot and propose this time slot
     – Arrange the logistics of the jazz event
     – Fend off any idea of another guy coming along
     – Take control of the evening and move her around all the way to my apartment
     – Bang

     This is a terrible idea.

     Nash gets away with dinner dates, but he has the places on lock and is able to arouse and escalate with his and the girl’s mouth full of sushi. Few men can do that.

     Movies, plays and concerts, where you have to shut up for extended periods of time and look at contextually alpha men doing their thing in the limelight are NOT for first dates pre-sex.

     Additionally, there is a high chance she will tell other orbiters and her girlfriends she is going, so they will either go too or will turn up for drinks after the show.

     You can listen to jazz at your place instead of watching cat videos, before you give her the dick.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/13/2018 at 7:37 am

       The framing of this stuff is so beta boy / bottom guy

       ===========================

       The jazz event is an opportunity that she’s giving you to take her out and bang her

       But the jazz event is on itself a ‘wall’ when compared to just having sex. Imagine

       Her: Do you want to go to a Jazz event or do you want to hang out and just fuck?

       What’s the opportunity and what’s the wall? the unstructured hang out is closer to fucking than the jazz event

       ===========================

       Still the jazz event is an opportunity when compared to not going out

       Her: We can keep just texting or we can go out to a jazz event

       ===========================

       So Luc – you’re here to bang her. And she’s there to be banged, all the rest are proxies or playgrounds or games but the basics don’t change. When she says jazz events she just wants you to take her out and fuck her.

       And what you’re doing here is working the shit out of that opportunity, and focusing on it, so you’re turning it into a wall. Why a wall? because the jazz event is not her pussy

       – Find a jazz events

       You don’t need jazz events to have sex. Just ask her out. Put minimum effort in this jazz crap, it’s not required

       – Get a good time slot and propose this time slot

       You’re not her secretary and the jazz event is not your plan. You don’t take her whims and desires and put the work to make them happen. That’s bottom guy. And the result of you putting the work doesn’t translate to having sex.

       What translates to having sex? tease, flirt, arouse, double down, call to action —

       – Arrange the logistics of the jazz event

       All the time you’re focusing on the jazz event you’re not paying attention to HER so her libido goes down

       – Fend off any idea of another guy coming along

       You can do all necessary things to arouse her and fuck her in the presence of her mom. The other guys are not your problem.

       Saying ‘it’s more fun just you and me’ it’s about framing, flirting and teasing. not logistics. You can escalate and full all the girls in the presence of God if you want to

       – Take control of the evening and move her around all the way to my apartment

       There’s the most offending line.

       This is not about you taking control.

       It’s not about ‘moving her around’

       And not ‘all the way to your appartment’

       That right there you’re pushing against resistance and fighting some battle that doesn’t exist

       SHE PROPOSED THE JAZZ EVENT THEME BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO BE FUCKED

       Go back to the basics man

       :-D

       You’re not fighting her

       ============

       Now that I say that I remember.

       Likely, the reason why you’re doing a solo dance and ignoring the things girls say and reacting to walls only, is….

       That in your current worldview you view girls as never wanting to have sex, having NO as a default so you have to trick them or exchange thins and push them into sex or whatever, like it’s a fight right?

       So girl says ‘jazz event’ and you don’t hear “fuck me baby” but “glibbery noise she’s slipping away”

       The girls offer compliance and you don’t see “she’s ready” but “she’s resisting in some incomprehensible manner” so you push her to resisting into a more comprehensible manner.

       Stop making them resist you

       Focus on finding the YES

       All these girls are genuinely interested and saying YES at several levels. Pay more attention.

       You don’t have to control the evening and guide her around like cattle all the way to your appartment

       What you have to do is

       1) Be present
       2) Tease, flirt, stories, rapport / break rapport, find what she likes
       3) Double down, escalate, kino
       4) Make out, take her home, fuck her

       Go back we’ve described this a dozen times

       The jazz event doesn’t even register here

       And all the other stuff should be invisible (other guys, logistics, etc)

       So take care of the logistics but that’s not where the meat is

       Reply
107. Lucretius says:

     06/13/2018 at 7:22 am

     Navigation is becoming a problem.

     If Yohami happy to move to the above, I will move along as well

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/13/2018 at 7:50 am

       Man oh man :-D

       I understand intellectually but a bit stuck on how to move this around to just a drinks at a bar (near my place).

       Me: Hey let’s go to [X place]
       Her: What’s there?
       Me: It’s fun, come
       Her: (happy girl)

       To tease her, I am going to have to build on something jazz or music

       No, what the fuck are you talking about

       First ‘Im going to have to’ – you don’t have to anything, you’re not constrained to bullshit

       And ‘jazz’ is not a wall you must go through to fuck her. You’re not a monkey in a musical

       How do I then just change the venue to where I want? Is it just:

       Me: Hey let’s go to X

       
       Me : Instead of going to jazz, we go to a bar cafe near the water.

       It doesn’t need to be ‘instead of jazz’. You’re going for a frame clash. You can invite her out to other things AND the jazz as well. You don’t need a trade. The jazz has nothing to do with you taking her out. You’re focusing on the jazz like it’s a wall.

       The jazz is just an excuse that she’s using so you take her out and fuck her

       
       I could start a tease with:
       Me : Are you trying to serenade me with jazz music and get me all hyponotized?

       Just read that line slowly.

       That goes along with ‘tight clothing’ and ‘ohh the butter on the bread’ and ‘whispering on my ear’ delete this stuff from your brain.

       
       The above can get a laugh from her but it also risks her saying no. most likely she will be saying no. I don’t know if this is heading in the wrong direction???

       Of course it’s heading downhill

       
       Me : Well, just to be safe, lets go to a bar on the water near my place. When are you free?

       “Just to be safe” wrong framing, you’re danger and adventure not safety

       Also you don’t need excuses to take her out

       When you say ‘bar on the water near my place” you’re communicating that you want to fuck her, so that’s a strong call to action, but you’re not arousing her first. So you’re going for a wall.

       Slow this crap down man :-D

       Slow down and process it

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/13/2018 at 7:55 am

         Her: hey [Lucretius], I don’t want to give the wrong message but I am really looking for a friendship

         I think I made enough screw up last night to earn the above

         Yup. It’s ok man, you’ll get there.

         Change venues so this doesn’t become a pattern where you chase all these girls away then the tribe expels you (happens a lot)

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/13/2018 at 7:57 am

           Reply

           Me: Yes sure

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             06/13/2018 at 7:58 am

             Then take her out and …. tease flirt arouse double down escalate…

             Man it’s always the same. The pieces change, the game is forever. You can still bang her, and her mom.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               06/13/2018 at 11:33 am

               It is getting there as I was able to catch myself here on this rather than just run on instinct auto pilot.

               Will post my other chat disaster this evening. Tried to be fancy and broke everything in record time :-/

               Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             06/13/2018 at 8:07 am

             You mean I should send:

             Me : yes sure
             Me : Let’s go to [bar place which is near my place]

             Is fine?

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/13/2018 at 8:13 am

               No…

               Me: Yes sure

               That’s just not giving a fuck to her attempt of friendzone. Then you continue with the jazz plan shit, and still without taking out the idea that it’s more fun the two of you

               DONT SEND THIS:

               Me : Let’s go to [bar place which is near my place]

               That’s you trying to escalate when she just set a wall

               Walls, openings man. Every time you’re going to do something, ask yourself if she’s giving you a wall or an opening and stop. Then figure if it’s time to escalate, or deflect.

               You’re escalating on walls and letting compliance slide. It’s a constant. Focus.

               Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               06/13/2018 at 11:06 am

               Sent only the “yes sure”.

               She seen it already and now I am in no chase mode and see what she comes back with (if anything).

               If it really does come to group jazz session, I have this urge to go but then join mid way into another group of whoever is there and connect with them.

               I don’t know if this is my instinctive “butt hurt” reaction or an appropriate course of action. As it is my instinct urge which is killing me it is likely bottom guy and not a recommended action.

               I would suspect that you would say to go to the jazz and then tease, flirt, escalate and bang this girl like the text exchange never happened.

               Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/13/2018 at 11:19 am

               I would suspect that you would say to go to the jazz and then tease, flirt, escalate and bang this girl like the text exchange never happened.

               Yup.

               I don’t know if this is my instinctive “butt hurt” reaction

               Yes – you’re reacting strongly to a wall that is not even real.

               ITS NOT REAL. Walls are not for you.

               She ‘felt left out’ and wanted you to take her phone.

               She reacted strongly when you pinged her

               She reopened and started the new chit chat

               She called you smooth and immediately offered an easy way to take her out

               Then she says “just friends ok” and you’re already butt hurt

               Wake the fuck up

               Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/13/2018 at 11:33 am

               Or to be more precise

               EVERY girl out there will have a % of opening and a % of wall. Your job is to go for the % opening, rub it so it increases and escalate there, while not interacting with the % of wall unless it’s to deflect it, bypass it, or punish it when needed.

               Interact with the openings not with the walls.

               So it’s the 180 degrees opposite of being buthurt about anything

               Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           06/13/2018 at 8:10 am

           I stop the usual place for 3 months and go else where.

           Going to new place tonight. Guys appear to be mostly the same but girls not (see 2-3 familiar girl faces)

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             06/13/2018 at 8:14 am

             Can you go to places that are not related to this group at all?

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               06/13/2018 at 8:32 am

               Only way to avoid this is to just get dressed and head out on my own and just walk into a crowded bar and connect into a group.

               Do that three times a week for two months, along with your improv classes, and do one of the drinks organized events once every two weeks.

               Add to that other stuff on weekends / activities

               This is not about making it hard or easy – it’s about killing that mofo inside of you who is AFRAID

               Reply
108. Lucretius says:

     06/13/2018 at 4:03 pm

     That in your current worldview you view girls as never wanting to have sex, having NO as a default so you have to trick them or exchange thins and push them into sex or whatever, like it’s a fight right?

     This is part social conditioning but also from Krauser / Torrero where they mention that girls are NO by default.

     I will have to reverse this in my mind completely.

     Reply
     • BlueValentine says:

       06/13/2018 at 8:51 pm

       Yeah, the metaphors they use, like Krauser’s metaphor that the girl is hiding in a well defended fortress and you have to assault it and escalate to get to her inside implied NO by default.

       Reply
109. BlueValentine says:

     06/13/2018 at 8:57 pm

     I do not think such chat servers are good. Talking here saves the writing forever. Then even in the future we can return to it, notice progress and draw new lessons rather than lose it in the ether.

     Reply
110. Lucretius says:

     06/13/2018 at 9:12 pm

     Just came back from the social drinks (new circle). I only saw 1 guy face that I recognized. I saw him and he saw me and that is it.

     On the girls, there was only a single girl that caught my eye (from sweden). I was with 3 other italians and she approached and entered my group and started rapport chatting.
     Having sufficient experience with this already, I gave ‘non-linear’ answers to her rapport questions and instead of answering them straight, I would give some other backstory or answer straight but then add something ‘non-linear’ such that the question wasnt boring.

     I noticed that she was mirroring me in the things I said so she was interested in me. For some reason, my brain was not functioning and I couldnt move the discussion very well in non-linear topics but I did manage to change the normal and boring socially accepted type of responses to being more about the ‘underground lifestyle’ of being in my party years and going to warehouse parties. Also moved the discussion to extreme sports (sky diving) and was describing vividly what I did and telling the story with animated body motions such that she was getting more and more involved. the more I tell this story, the more I am able to control the flow and energy as it comes out while keeping to the components of the story telling to invoke emotion in her. I could see that she was responding to me but I was stuck or going in a loop and just wasnt able to flirting which was the point where I missed the window.

     I went to the bar to fill up and then later caught up with her in a separate group. Now there is two other guys, me and the girl. I cannot conduct a direct conversation with her without the other guys saying something and then taking the discussion somewhere else. This kept going for a while and then I excused myself to mingle a bit more and then when I came back to look for her, she had left.

     My screw up here was that I didnt flirt at the very moment that I saw she was responding to me.
     I left a ‘Hey ;-)’ via online messaging and will see if she comes back and go from there.

     In a separate situation, the bartender (cute girl) was reacting to me from the first order I drank. I had gone back 4 times in total.

     1st time
     wanted my initial order – some other guy attended to me. But there was some general chit chat with her. She smiled to herself while I was speaking with her and she speaking with me.

     2nd time
     she filled my order and there were a few more words but nothing much as another guy was talking to me. I was already getting interested in her.

     3rd time
     I came for another refill and this time got her name. She took so long to find the payment machine that I made a joke ‘Is this on the house?’. She was then explaining that the machine needed a new paper roll. When it was eventually done, she said “this one will be on the house’. I said thank you and left

     4th time (last time)
     I came to fill my last water as I was already there for a while and the swedish girl already left and nothing else for me there. Some other bartender guy wanted to attend to me but I said I wait for the bartender lady (I used her name). She eventually came back (I winked at her) and I said that this is the last round before I leave. The discussion went like this:
     Me : This is the last round before I leave
     Her: You mean the city?

     Me : No just the event. It is already 21:10
     Her: You mean it is already 22:00 //she misheard

     Me : No, 21:10
     Me : Seems to be a busy night.
     Her: Yes, the table just sat down and we work a lot with external people who dont know anything and just stand around not knowing what todo and I have to run after them and tell them what todo … blah blah blah …. and I am the supervisor //It is a bar restaurant at a hotel and a group of 10 people just sat down and she is serving the drinks

     Me : Sounds like it is going to be a long night
     Her: Yeah it is

     //I am wanting to know if she is going to finish in like an hour or not where I can take her for a drink near my place and fuck her tonight
     Me : How long is long? as in what time do you finish
     Her: around 1am

     //1 am is too late for me as it is office day tomorrow
     Me : That is going to be late for you
     Me : Be nice to get a drink sometime
     Her: Yes it would // She says this in a girly way while she is processing me asking her out

     Me : Give me your number
     Her: Yes, sure. You have something for me to write it down. Or perhaps you put it in your phone

     Me : Here //I take out my phone and give it to her

     At this point she is typing in her number and make multiple mistakes and is correcting it in the phone. She also puts in her first and last name in my phone.

     Me : I will text

     I then walk off and drink my last drink with some other guys and then say my good byes. Strangely, two guys asked me for my mobile number. One wanted to get into my field of work and the other wanted to get to know my tailor (I was in suit from office). I must of made an impression on them but socially (for the ends of girls) they not going to be helpful.

     The key lesson
     Earlier tonight, I learnt two things and felt it emotionally:
     – it was the first time ever that I saw HOW LITTLE it is required to get a girl to give me her phone number when she is interested (ie. taking the window of opportunity at the first moment). If she was finishing earlier, I would of taken her to a bar, had 1 drink and then up to my apartment to fuck.
     – how much things can be screwed up when the window of opportunity is missed (as in swedish girl)

     action points
     On swedish girl, I left an online message but dont know if she is going to respond
     On the Bartender Lady, will text her tomorrow during the day with ‘Hey ;-)’ and see what she comes back with. My gut feeling is that she is going to just say ‘hi’ back with some punctuation. So here I am going to need to try the ‘how are you’ but it is not clear how this would work. Some guidelines would be appreciated. Dont have enough for a nickname given how little was spoken (unless someone can piece together a nickname from the above)

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       06/13/2018 at 9:26 pm

       Good stuff man.

       Me: Hey ;-)
       Her: Hi!
       Me: How are you?
       Her: Good blah blah blah and you?
       Me: Living the life :-)
       Me: Let’s go for that drink

       Rapport / Break rapport. Nothing new here

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         06/13/2018 at 9:57 pm

         What I am understanding is:

         Short form rapport + break rapport
         Me : Where you from? You look russian

         Long form rapport + break rapport
         Me: How are you?
         Her: Good blah blah blah and you?
         Me: Living the life :-)

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           06/13/2018 at 9:58 pm

           Yes

           Reply
111. Lucretius says:

     06/14/2018 at 4:13 pm

     This is a disaster text exchange from online.

     Background
     I saw a girl checking out my photo (she was cute) and I then decided to message her. Nothing much in the photo but she was checking me from the invite list.
     There is also a hint in her profile that she was from out of town and trying social drinks in my city

     [~~~~ Text Exchange ~~~~]
     [line 01] Me : hey cutie ;-)
     [line 02] Her: Hi [Lucretius] – were you at Friday’s event? Best [First initial of girl name]
     [line 03] Me : yes, for a while then elsewhere with friends
     [line 04] Me : [City] is great for meeting people.

     [~~~~ Mental breakdown ~~~~]
     [line 01] Me : hey cutie ;-)
     Standard opener that I am feeling comfortable with

     [line 02] Her: Hi [Lucretius] – were you at Friday’s event? Best [First initial of girl name]
     She is referring to the drinks event (same one where I didnt take the polish posh girl). The format of her response is strange ‘Hi – blah blah – bye’

     [line 03] Me : yes, for a while then elsewhere with friends
     Here I was being truthful but also was trying to communicate that it was a bit boring and decided to go elsewhere.
     I think here I managed to communicate that I didnt take any girl home and decided to try elsewhere

     [line 04] Me : [City] is great for meeting people.
     This was a line for me to get her to build ontop of to see what she would say knowing that I am referring to hooking up.
     In retrospect this just seems silly because it feels like I am not taking it anywhere and the discussion is frozen here for the past 3 days.

     [~~~~ Alternate text chat ~~~~]
     The more I think about this, the more I think i should have responded as below:
     [line 01] Me : hey cutie ;-)
     [line 02] Her: Hi [Lucretius] – were you at Friday’s event? Best [First initial of girl name]
     [line 03] Me : yes, was fun
     [line 04] Me : What did you think?
     [line 05] Her: blah blah blah
     [line 06] Me : (compliment her)

     Thoughts?

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       06/14/2018 at 4:47 pm

       I actually don’t even know if the conversation is really stalled here or if she is waiting for me to say something :-/

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         06/14/2018 at 7:10 pm

         Flirt, tease, escalate, ask her out (the chat is not a disaster, it’s just going nowhere, take it somewhere)

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           06/14/2018 at 7:43 pm

           Any suggested response at this point?

           I don’t see anything from what I can work with here. Nothing has been given to me by her. I look at her and see a nice german (i think) girl posing in her apartment as in look I am cute.

           Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           06/14/2018 at 7:55 pm

           Wink at her (flirt) but this is rewarding a void, so doesn’t sound right.

           I have already used the word ‘cutie’ in the opening so to use it again doesn’t seem right. The photo doesn’t tell me anything (no legs or body showing).

           On the teasing, she is smiling upwards into the ceiling but what todo here.

           I could try the chit chat along the city I am in like:

           Me : What do you think of [city]?

           And see if she comes back from that and tease / flirt on what she says. Cautious not to fall into rapport. If no other suggestion, I will try the above which seems better than silence if the chat has just stalled.

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             06/14/2018 at 8:22 pm

             Me : What do you think of [city]?

             That’s more of the same chit chat that didn’t do anything so far

             Ask her out with a lot of room

             Me: what are you doing these days? let’s go for a drink or something

             Reply
112. J.S says:

     06/15/2018 at 4:58 am

     Why is that with girls who’s got a lot of girl game, call-back rapport is a good thing, progresses things forward and, in fact, gives HER more fodder to keep on seducing me in the future — however with, admittedly, prettier girls with zero girl game, except for “look pretty, respond + ask boring rapport questions when she want to show interest”, call-back rapport either stalls things or is simply completely ignored. I’ve noticed this dynamic just now.

     Does this mean I shall not answer rapport questions from girls who in the future care not about my answers and only care about their vaginas?

     Reply
     • BlueValentine says:

       06/16/2018 at 6:53 pm

       I can’t access the chat through that link.

       I still don’t think it’s a good idea. All the advice there is lost since the link doesn’t work anymore.

       Here, in the blog comments, it stays for the future and we can read it again and learn.

       Reply
113. BlueValentine says:

     06/16/2018 at 6:48 pm

     Yohami, I noticed that me and many others have trouble identifying walls and openings in text.

     How do you conceive in your brain of what a wall is and what an opening is?

     Is a wall anything that takes you away from sex, and an opening anything that brings you closer to sex?

     Or are walls anything that reduces her arousal, and an opening is anything that makes her more sexually excites?

     Examples:

     Opening / Walls as anything that brings you closer to sex:

     Logistics:
     Her: I can’t tomorrow but I have time on Tuesday
     Me: Excellent. See you Tuesday ;-)

     Objection:
     Her: I only met you for 3 minutes! I want to know you better
     Me: Here is my facebook. Now you know me ;-)

     Shit test:
     Her: Do you say that to all girls?
     Me: Sometimes. By the way did you hear about that jazz event next Friday? Blablabla

     Openings / Walls as making it about her sexual arousal:

     Logistics:
     Her: I can’t tomorrow but I have time on Tuesday
     Me: It will befun
     Me: ;-)

     Objection:
     Her: I only met you for 3 minutes! I want to know you better
     Me: Oh, so it took you 3 minutes to fall in love with me?
     Me: You’re slow ;-)

     Shit Test:
     Her: Do you say that to all girls?
     Me: Yes. To girls with cute butts in short dresses
     Me: ;-)

     So which one is more similar to what you mean? Or something totally different?

     This will help us identify walls and openings better when we have a framework of what they are like,

     Reply
114. My time with a gold digger | Spherical Male says:

     07/16/2018 at 1:44 pm

     […] at what Yohami teaches at Nash’s blog, this is basically a switch that brings one closer to a top guy […]

     Reply