DAYS OF GAME

895 Responses to A Close Call with a Married Woman

1. YOHAMI says:

   04/23/2018 at 8:14 am

   Congrats man. One pointer:

   “and then they have to make a choice. Stay or go? I like it that it way. ”

   That moment where you pass the power to her and she ‘has to make a choice’ is the tussle seed.

   I know I’ve hammered that point before.

   Ideally when you pick up the girl, there’s no choice for her.

   But how?

   The same way when you approach someone and ask for the time if they are carrying a watch. Or you enter a place and you look at someone and say ‘good morning’

   If I go somewhere and there’s a cute girl and I say “hi” she’ll smile and say hi back. Then if I make a funny remark or question she’ll smile again and engage in conversation. There’s no choice for her. She doesn’t have to stop and make a choice.

   That pause (that you introduce) means she has to evaluate you and rank you and coordinate things iun her mind and feelings and take the initiative to move her own body. There are a LOT of things going on here. Just by introducing that pause you’re screening the girls who will dance that specific dance.

   But there’s no need to give them the power like that.

   If you do eye contact that’s the ramp for saying hi.

   If you go without the eye contact and say ‘hi’ or ‘hey’ in a commanding enough voice and then you ‘engage in conversation’ with your eyes, they’ll stop. Then ‘you’re cute, who are you?’ or whatever other pickup line you like, and they’ll play. There’s no choice. If they are feeling the right thing, there’s only one thing they can do about it, which is to engage and want more.

   So I get this is something you like

   “and then they have to make a choice. Stay or go?”

   But it is the “here are my moves, you tell me when to stop”. It’s the same framing.

   In comparison – when you think something is funny and start telling a story, people often start laughing and smiling before you even get to the joke. Has that happened to you?

   The point is again she shouldn’t have a choice. You’re leading, she’ll follow.

   OF COURSE she can always decide not to. But that’s on her. That’s not the game you’ll offer her.

   You don’t offer them the choice to follow or leave.

   You offer the option to follow. (they can still leave if they choose to).

   You don’t offer her the choice to stay or stop or come close or go away. You offer them the option to come.

   Offer them the option to listen to you.

   Offer them the option to engage with you.

   And nothing else.

   No duality there.

   No passing of power.

   Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:40 pm

     As usual… I want to argue with you…

     >> That moment where you pass the power to her and she ‘has to make a choice’ is the tussle seed.

     I don’t buy that I am creating “tussle” here, but you’re right… I am making her “work” a bit.

     >> If I go somewhere and there’s a cute girl and I say “hi” she’ll smile and say hi back. Then if I make a funny remark or question she’ll smile again and engage in conversation. There’s no choice for her. She doesn’t have to stop and make a choice.

     You are assuming Top Guy frame (of course you are!), but I agree with most of what you’re saying.

     This is all good coaching… thank you.

     I think the “choice” I am giving her here is more like when I once said “you can go home or come back to my place” after that date. That was terrible game when I was saying stuff like that. Telegraphing a way out… AND making her decide. Bad game.

     This case is a different scenario (it’s the initial approach, not post-date pull attempt). But in both cases I am making her do a little bit of “work”… and that’s not ideal.

     You’re saying “there’s no choice for her,” and I’m translating that to “don’t make her work.”

     For cold approach… I want her to have a choice. Legally, but well beyond that. That’s largely why I do not use my body to block her via a front stop… I want her to have choice. The choice is essential.

     But as long as there is choice… I should work toward being the kind of man that takes all the work out of this for them.

     Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:41 pm

     >> If you go without the eye contact and say ‘hi’ or ‘hey’ in a commanding enough voice and then you ‘engage in conversation’ with your eyes, they’ll stop. Then ‘you’re cute, who are you?’ or whatever other pickup line you like, and they’ll play. There’s no choice. If they are feeling the right thing, there’s only one thing they can do about it, which is to engage and want more.

     Great game. I like it.

     Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 8:52 pm

     >> OF COURSE she can always decide not to. But that’s on her. That’s not the game you’ll offer her.
     >> You don’t offer them the choice to follow or leave.
     >> You offer the option to follow. (they can still leave if they choose to).

     This particular instance is about cold approach on a moving target.

     Above you say “with a commanding voice.” That is a good example of how to “give her no choice” while actually not being invasive. I get that. In many cases, I am sure the conviction of my voice helps stop her. Yes.

     Practically speaking… we can body-block her with an aggressive front stop. Pancake does this, and the girls are very turned on. It’s not subtle. They still squirm around him sometimes, but he stops hot girls like that… and this is how they originally taught the London Model. Sundance stops like this too, but more subtly.

     I’m not into that style, personally. That style has the most potential to get us in trouble with the general public, get us thrown out of the mall, etc. It’s too invasive for me, personally.

     So… there is BODY BLOCK her (front stop)… or WALK ALONG SIDE OF HER (that is the weakest game, in my opinion… looks terrible). I don’t like those.

     So I SIDE STOP, and PLANT MY FEET…

     This ^ is why she has to make a choice. I’m not asking for permission… it’s that I’m not chasing after her, and/or I haven’t body blocked her… so if she’s moving when I approach, and I stop… she has to make a choice to be in the set.

     And that choice is a GOOD THING… because she has co-signed the seduction. I don’t need permission, but this is her opting in.

     The whole thing is “high value” as I see it. Not a “trick” to show high value, but actual high value.

     Reply
   • Lucretius says:

     04/24/2018 at 6:44 am

     I can understand what you are saying about “not giving the girl the power to decide” as she could just chose to exit there because she doesnt want to take “responsibility” for moving the interaction forward.

     But if there is a verbal interaction ongoing and it is time to move forward (say new location) can the choice vs option be done with phrasing?

     As example:
     Verbal 1: blah blah blah, going to this bar for drinks. Want to come with me? (Girl has to make a choice and therefore decide yes/no)

     Verbal 2: blah blah blah, going to this bar for drinks. Come along… (Girl has an option to just go along)

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       04/24/2018 at 7:16 am

       The girl is always making a choice. A lot of the time she already made the choice before you even said anything. Most girls know already if they are going to fuck you – long before you even started ‘seducing and escalating’. The most common error and miscalibration is going too-slow, and adding obstacles and dealing with walls and things like they mattered.

       Which brings me to the point:

       Me: hey, let’s go to that starbucks and chat some more?

       And expecting that she’ll say YES, and enjoying that you know she’ll say yes, vs:

       Me: hey, let’s go to that starbucks and chat some more?

       And expecting that now she has to make a Yes / No choice, and enjoying that decisions

       —-

       Are VASTLY different scenarios.

       It’s the difference between fucking and not fucking.

       In the first scenario you’re leading and she’s following. You take the reigns and set the pace. The more you do that, the more you do that. The more you lead, the more she follows. The more she follows, the more her compliance increases. Me, personally, I don’t even think a girl would even say no. I offer the minimal thing she’d say yes to, which is how the hi ramps into the ‘how are you’ and it ramps into more flirting and ramps into going to locations and ramps into having sex and it can all happen in under an hour. She could say no at any point, but why would she?

       The second scenario, the focus is to make the girl do the choice, so there’s onus put there, she’s ‘on the spot’, which means the dance is progressing also using her proactive agency. This means half the time she will say no. This is a two parter. FIRST, girls instinct is to stay safe, so given the chance they will slow things down so they can absorb the most info so they can be completely sure of everything, or, given the chance they go from emotions to rational mind (heh) to settle things down, and then things usually die there, as they move forward to something that has more emotion charge and makes them think less. SECOND, top guys don’t interact in this way, so the ‘now you decide girl’ is a tell that she’s dealing with a bottom guy, so it’s an invitation for her to pull the brakes and do a shit test, set a wall, play hard to get etc.

       So it may look similar and small but it’s not. This is the difference between:

       Looking at her, moving towards her, grabbing her waist, offering your chin, going for the kiss

       To:

       Looking at her [ are you sure? ] moving towards her [ can you also move towards me too a little?] grabbing her waist [ you can exit at any moment you want ] offering your chin [ I don’t know if I should kiss you are you ready? ] going for the kiss [ hey I don’t expect this to land ]

       It’s the difference between fucking and not fucking.

       It’s likely what’s enabling Nash dates to keep pulling the resistance all the way down to the bed. There’s a metagame going on.

       That summed to the strangely “I am dangerous” metagame.

       Girls don’t want a ‘dangerous’ man. They feel SAFE with what you call a dangerous man. The CAD who fucks her well makes her feel sage. That’s not danger.
       ]
       The hypergamy / attraction to the strong man is aligned with her sense of security. She’s the safest she’s ever been right there when the strong man has his dick inside of her. That’s her heaven.

       But you don’t have to believe me: ask the women. Then watch them do and act.

       —————-

       Lead. Let them follow.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/24/2018 at 7:22 am

         What girls feel ‘dangerous’ is the creep, not the player. They are attracted to the player. So you can call yourself ‘dangerous’ but that’s creating a game on top of the current game.

         The current game is that she will tell you, early on, exactly how to fuck her, and that you have to pay attention and rub her on the right spot, while displaying your manly attributes, and not falling on the traps that she sets to disqualify bottom guy. That’s the actual game.

         Now if you add layers on top of that “dangerous you and me” that’s an invitation for her to drop her current game. So things there will work when she actually doesn’t care about her own game, or when her needs align perfectly with what you’re playing there. So, roughly, 1 in 200 girls?

         As opposed to 100 in 100 girls that would respond to the normal top guy / high status man > girl interaction.

         Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         04/24/2018 at 4:59 pm

         If I understand this correctly, then we should be doing the following:

         On meeting the girl and saying hi, pause to watch her reaction, then say something like ‘how are you?’ or brief comment on clothes / accessories / etc. If she responds well (ie. smile, giggle or something similar), then we must assume she is DTF and from continue the interaction knowing that she is likely to comply with every ramp (verbals almost irrelevant).

         At this point it is no longer about doubt on our (guy) side on how the girls would perceive us but just for us to lead the interaction bit by bit (eg. brief talk, move to location, brief talk, kiss, move to another location, etc) until it leads to sex.

         The girl could always ‘chose to stop/exit’ at any point if she senses bottom guy but will just keep going along (follow) if there is continued top guy mentality (ie. self assurance) because of the frame of reference (ie. Guy ‘knows’ she is already DTF so progress onwards towards sex). This would be irrespective of the girl status (married, w/boyfriend or otherwise).

         In summary, the initial frame of reference (top guy) is everything going forward after hi. Do i got it right?

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/24/2018 at 5:33 pm

           Hah man, nope. Got some thing right. Let’s try this:

           ————–

           She’s always DTF. That’s not a question. The question is what type of man she’s DTF for, and if you’re that type of man. That’s a question for her, but also for you. So you ask yourself: is this the kind of girl I want to fuck? because she’ll require a certain type of man for her to be a YES girl. She will offer a series of riddles and instructions which is how to fuck her. Are YOU compatible with that? and is she compatible with you? So she’s DTF. Will you go for it? is it worth your time?

           So:

           SHE IS ALWAYS DTF

           And

           SHE IS ALWAYS READY TO FUCK MR TOP GUY

           That’s never a question. She’s DTF before you even talk to her. When you say hi, all you have to convey is you’re mr Top Guy. Then there are more moving parts, and specifics. The framing is

           1) Are you mr top guy?
           2) Is she compatible with your needs?
           3) Are you the type of top guy that she’ll bang?
           4) Will you put the required amount of work to dance the dance and arouse her till you fuck her? is it worth your time?

           ——————–

           Here’s how the dance goes

           1) You call to action, initiate action, ping. The first ‘hi’ and opener falls in this category.

           2) She reacts, she does her part. She’ll respond to what you just did with a level of interest and a level of rejection, or “a door” and “a wall”

           3) You focus on the part of her that is a “door”, or the part of her that is receptive, and double down there.

           Repeat 1)

           4) Chill back and relax, tell stories, DHV, “swing your dick”, display your manly attributes. This is different than 1 in that you’re not doing a move or call to action, just vibing, asking questions, getting her to qualify, teasing her, making her laugh, doing kino, etc. Being. To every little thing you do, she will immediately do

           2) React.

           Girls at the beginning show you exactly how to bang them, they volunteer all the information that you need right away. It’s a reflex. You ping them sexually, and they tell you how. They will tell you the things that matter the most. They will react strongly to some themes and be cold towards themes. There’s no room for confusion: just pay attention and listen. From there on, you repeat the 1) command, take action, escalate, lead. Then 2) watch her react and 3) triple down on what works and don’t repeat the stuff that doesn’t work.

           Then there are other things like ‘ ramps’

           A ramp: before making a big jump ahead, tease it.

           Every call to action or escalation works better if you tease it before hand. Teasing makes her ‘want it’, then when you deliver it it has extra impact. This is no different than the basics of storytelling, creating anticipation, telling a joke, etc. For girls more than half of arousal is the anticipation. So you ‘ramp’ to create anticipation, then deliver. What’s a ramp? say you are going to say hi, you initiate eye contact first. Say you’re going to grab her ass, you caress the back of her back first. Say you’re going to kiss her, you bring her close and smell her neck first. Etc.

           Then

           Compliments / negs or rewards / punishments.

           Or, you treat her well when she’s in good behavior, and neg her / put her down when she’s in bad behavior. You set walls to any transgression, and give her rewards for playing nice. Give her attention when she’s compliant, and retract your attention when she’s not.

           Then

           Commands

           All your lines where you tell her what to do are free of obstacles, free of begging, free of whatever bad shit you carry along from scarcity – the ‘frame is clean’, so all your escalation is done assuming success instead of assuming roadblocks (which is what I was talking about here)

           ————-

           And you do all of the above like she doesn’t matter at all and she has no effect on your life other than your own pleasure and entertainment.

           Then you can bang them all.

           Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/24/2018 at 6:43 pm

           Now a proper reply

           “On meeting the girl and saying hi, pause to watch her reaction”

           No, don’t ‘pause’. My comment above was precisely against this pause.

           Interact with her to make her react. Then use her reaction on your next iteration. That’s the dance.

           “then say something like ‘how are you?’”

           Ask “WHO” are you. This is about qualifying her, not doing asexual rapport.

           “or brief comment on clothes / accessories / etc.”

           Talking about her clothing is shit game unless you’re negging. If you’re negging on your opening you better have a reason as to why: did you already identify her as someone who’ll get aroused by negs? if not, compliments work better, but not addressed to her clothing and accessories (fuck wherever you got this angle from), but to HER

           – Hey I like your shoes, oh look at that accessory blah blah

           Means you’re completely gay

           – You look good

           Is ok game.

           – Hey cutie

           That’s better game

           – You’re cute, who are you

           Is good game – note how you validate her briefly but then break rapport, aka not clinging to it, and giving her something to work for (which is what she WANTS)

           “If she responds well (ie. smile, giggle or something similar), then we must assume she is DTF”

           Yes but she’s always DTF. The question is – are you arousing her? are you pinging that hunger.

           “and from continue the interaction knowing that she is likely to comply with every ramp”

           Yes. But the ramps are not the thing – the thing’s she’ll comply with are your calls to action (lets do this, lets move there, give me your phone, let’s hang out, cmere kiss me, take your clothes off). The RAMP is how you make the above smooth and how you screen things and make ready she’s receptive before escalating.

           “verbals almost irrelevant).”

           Verbals are of the most importance.

           “At this point it is no longer about doubt on our (guy) side on how the girls would perceive us”

           The ‘doubt’ should play no part in your interactions here, or ever, with anyone.

           “but just for us to lead the interaction bit by bit (eg. brief talk, move to location, brief talk, kiss, move to another location, etc) ”

           Yes.

           “until it leads to sex.”

           ‘it’ doesn’t lead to sex. YOU lead it towards sex.

           “The girl could always ‘chose to stop/exit’ at any point if she senses bottom guy but will just keep going along (follow) if there is continued top guy mentality”

           Yes. Not just mentality but behavior. And your behavior is just the emanation from your persona. Or, you behave like you are. Who are you, and how do you behave?

           Are you the man in power living in abundance on the top of his own world? do you have more value than she does? do you have a party going on and you’re considering inviting her, or are you trying to crash her party and begging to get in? what’s your script? are you a millionaire with a bunch of cash on your pocket window shopping? or are you a salesman doing cold calls and will take any costumer that will have you? what’s your script? what’s your behavior like?

           “(ie. self assurance) because of the frame of reference (ie. Guy ‘knows’ she is already DTF so progress onwards towards sex). This would be irrespective of the girl status (married, w/boyfriend or otherwise).”

           Yes.

           “In summary, the initial frame of reference (top guy) is everything going forward after hi. Do i got it right?”

           Sorta!

           I hope that helped.

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             04/24/2018 at 9:44 pm

             Let me try again to summarize if I got this right (or at least better)

             For the opener, it needs to be something that is specifically on her as a girl and not some “3rd thing”.

             Example to avoid:
             – Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?
             – It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?
             – The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous
             – Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet

             Example that invoke her:
             – Your cute, who are you?
             – I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?
             – I like your style (of dress), tell me more about you
             – You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking? (said with a “knowing” smirk)

             Her response on the above would lead to something with which to continue the discussion.

             Example:
             – I am blah blah, and who are you? (next loop runs on who guy is before moving discussion back to girl using a comment or statement to trigger some possible discussion thread)
             – I like to dress like this, it is my style (next loop would be to comment on the impression of her style and what type of girl the guy thinks she is to find another thread)
             – Those are private thoughts *wink* (next loop is to tease about either her wink or her that she was having such thoughts and was caught)

             An example of a neg opener would be for dressed up girl:
             Guy: That is a lovely scarf as it stands out (ramp)
             Girl: Thank you, I like it
             Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas (assuming wearing plain black clothes – neg forcing her to validate)

             Is the above closer to what it should be?

             On “arousal”, I think is clear for everyone that anticipation would build suspense and therefore arouse the girl in what the guy is going todo next. Part that is not clear (at least to me) is on “finding the spots for arousal and rubbing them”. An example or two here of a “arousal spot” and “how to rub it” would be helpful to solidify the idea.

             On the “door vs wall”, this is clear. Door is the positive part I want to focus on to move the conversation forward whereas the wall or obstacle is something I leave as it (unless unavoidable as is blocking discussion going forward).

             fyi, still making my way through Nash other posts and replies – you may have mentioned something there on the above.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               04/25/2018 at 6:37 am

               “– Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?
               – It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?
               – The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous
               – Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet”

               You can perfectly use these in situations where you’re next to each other in a group. Judgement remarks work better than passing comments, but better if the judgement is going to flip her either way, either way meaning, she’ll get aroused / laugh / you’re showing dominance / you’ll piss her off. Yeah pissing her off is valid. And the more this can be then turned into her, and you and her, the better

               The problem with your lines above is that they can be answered with Yes / No. They should be stories instead. Things that produce an emotional reaction, and that emotion will ramp into the conversation after it

               ———————-

               “– Hi, nice weather we are having isnt it?

               To:

               – This weather is the worse piece of shit

               Is good.

               – Who do you think you are by wearing those shorts, don’t you see we’re freezing?

               If you want to neg

               – It’s so fucking hot, come with me let’s jump in that pond over there

               Or

               – Oh man we can’t keep doing this, everybody get naked!

               To a group

               Can you already hear her ‘hahaha’?

               ———————-

               “– It is a bit noisy in here, dont you think?”

               To

               – What the fuck is going on here?

               – Who’s the monkey playing this music?

               – This song is chasing me around!

               – Who’s hammering around? HEY people chill out! (if there’s a construction)

               ————————-

               “– The graffiti looks modern, I wonder if it is famous”

               This is the shittiest of the lines but can still turned around, if she’s into art

               – This is better than anything you can see in a museum

               – My little cousin painted that one (joke)

               ————————–

               “– Dont stand too close to the wall, the paint is wet””

               That’s ok if you follow it up

               – Yeah they should have a sign or something. Are you here for XXX?

               – Im [Name] who are you?

               ———————————————————————

               “– Your cute, who are you?”

               That’s fine because it’s setting the frame. You find her physically attractive, the frame is sexual, and you’re in a position of power. Eventually, coming from the previous lines, you’d land here. Even if it’s not stated, this is the frame

               “– I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?”

               This is shit game. Why? because “I was walking around and..” is like you’re trying to justify why you’re talking to her. You don’t need a justification to talk to her.

               “– I like your style (of dress), tell me more about you”

               This is shit game unless she’s wearing a dress that says “WHORE” then you can say “nice dress” and wink. Or one of these FCUK tshirts. I’ve seen this bs about commenting on a girl’s style before somewhere. It’s shit game, but don’t believe me, put it to practice.

               Open 5 girls telling them “I like your style / dress, tell me more about you”, then open 5 other girls telling them “you’re cute, who are you”

               Fuckboy tim inserts a ‘fuck’ and says “who the fuck are you”. He’s in NY so that probably fits the city.

               “– You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking? (said with a “knowing” smirk)”

               This is uber shit game. It has all the wrong things in it.

               Why? because you’re not going for her pussy.

               But you are, right?

               You’re coming at her because you want her pussy. But you’re not going for it. Not going for her arousal. Not showing your intent. Why? because something is blocking you

               That ‘block’ is on you, not her. You decided to pay attention to her face and care / notice her expression and tried to figure out what she’s thinking and came here to talk about these non threatening things all while – you have an erection on your pants, so you may just go and say ‘hey Im a creep’

               The exception of course is when that specific line fits that specific girl. 1 in a million? but that’s not Game.

               You can safely delete that line / approach from your toolbox.

               —————————————————–

               “Guy: That is a lovely scarf as it stands out (ramp)
               Girl: Thank you, I like it
               Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas (assuming wearing plain black clothes – neg forcing her to validate)”

               No, that’s you being homosexual

               How much do you really want to talk about scarfs?

               Rank it 1 to 10

               Whatever number, that’s your rank on the manliness / attractive scale.

               Example, if your level of interests on scarfs is 2, then you’re 2/10 a man.

               Compare it to “you are cute, who are you?”

               Is that true? maybe the truer form would be “you look fucking great, I would bang you right here right now” which is also a valid opener depending on the girl and social setup. But let’s say ‘you’re cute who are you’ is true to your real intent as a 8/10. Then when you say it you’re a 8/10 man.

               LEAD WITH YOUR INTENT

               Stop giving a fuck about scarfs

               Unless you’re doing so to neg her or flirt her.

               How do you know?

               Go for her ‘hahaha’

               That hahaha is her arousal, or one of it’s shapes.

               —————————–

               AROUSAL

               When the girls wants more.

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/25/2018 at 8:30 am

               “Part that is not clear (at least to me) is on “finding the spots for arousal and rubbing them”. ”

               When you’re talking to her, some things will elicit a stronger reaction in her than others.

               The ‘arousal’ spots is what elicits that reaction. So you do that more.

               But also this can means she ‘chills and smiles’. She gives you puppy eyes. She gets comfy. She’s stimulated. That’s the arousal.

               When you’re interacting with the girl all you’re doing is / should be scanning for the things that will arouse her.

               This is not some deep secret: she’ll be exposing all these on your face all the time. She will tell you, straight away, what she likes and how to fuck her.

               This would require a longer form response but for now, imagine that all the lines you say have the [to have sex] appended, and all her responses also have [to fuck me] appended

               Then read and see where this takes you.

               ————————-

               If you read them like that you can understand which lines are conductive and which arent

               – Hi, nice weather [to have sex] we are having isnt it?

               – It is a bit noisy [to have sex] in here, dont you think?

               – The graffiti looks modern [to have sex] , I wonder if it is famous (see why this is shit?)

               – Dont stand too close to the wall [to have sex], the paint is wet

               —————————-

               – Your cute [to have sex], who are you?

               – I was walking and you caught my eye [to have sex], who are you?

               – I like your style (of dress) [to have sex], tell me more about you (see why talking about her dress to have sex starts being weird?)

               – You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking [to have sex]? (see how this is weird?)

               ——————————

               Now look how this is shi

               Guy: That is a lovely scarf [to have sex] as it stands out
               Girl: Thank you, I like it [to fuck me]
               Guy: Its nice, but it is on such a bland canvas [to have sex]

               It’s way too convoluted, which is why it’s ‘shit game’

2. Flat Lander says:

   04/23/2018 at 1:32 pm

   “I took her by the wrist and pulled her toward my room …”

   This seems to break the bubble of plausible deniability. The bedroom move triggers ASD, as it breaks the “one thing leading to another” flow.

   Walking her around your place and then pouncing on her to kiss and lift her is you being the dangerous monster she has to run from.

   Seeing how smooth the kino at the restaurant is going, why not chill with her on the couch in your living room and work on her arousal there?

   Compare:
   “He pursued me around the house, then pulled me to his bedroom” vs “We were chilling on the couch watching a movie and…”

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/23/2018 at 3:33 pm

     She went to his apartment, they kissed, she’s married – plausible deniability has been long gone here. It’s gone since she texted him back really.

     Reply
   • Flat Lander says:

     04/23/2018 at 7:50 pm

     I knew there was a slow tea and bench scene in your conquests:

     “I offered desert (cheesecake trap was set) and cats. She said, a bit reluctantly, “I like talking with you…,” dripping with emotion. I said “I have some non-caffeine tea” and she was a full yes and we left.

     It was the coldest night of the year. My heat was on, but we were cold from the short trip from the car to my door. I sat her on the table, wrapped a blanket around her, and made us tea. We sat next to each other, feet on the bench seat, cats swirling around us, holding warm cups of tea, and I kissed her…

     She almost collapsed. She was this unbelievably sexy version of helpless… something like that. She was moaning. Two more kisses and I said, “come on.”

     I wrapped my arms around her, kept telling her “you’re alright,” as we slowly walked down the long hallway to my bedroom. I almost carried her. It was like she might faint. ”

     From: http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/sex-with-the-siren/

     Reply
     • Nash says:

       04/23/2018 at 9:38 pm

       >> I knew there was a slow tea and bench scene in your conquests:

       Yeah. That… was a remarkable night with one of the most special girls I have ever been with. You make me miss her as I reread that stuff.

       I don’t really bother with “cheesecake” anymore. It’s “listen to music” or “meet my cats” or “cup of tea.” She is either into it or she is not.

       Other times I’m even more direct… “come back to my place and make out with me.” I think that is pretty damn good as well… depends on the vibe.

       …

       There are a lot of “moves”/mindsets in this part of the seduction that are “high level.” I think I am into this territory often enough that THIS is where I should put some effort to get better.

       Mostly, I think I have to learn these bits via my own experience. No ebook will really make a difference here.

       The exception is Yohami… Yohami is a guy that get this at the “upper threshold” level. So the things he is coaching me on… these are areas I need to focus.

       Reply
   • Nash says:

     04/23/2018 at 9:31 pm

     >> the “one thing leading to another” flow.

     I don’t run this kind of game… I think I may very well have a lot to learn here.

     I think my seduction skills in terms of once she is back at my place… I need work there. I assume I am way better than most men… but if I want to go to the upper thresholds, I have a lot of work to do here.

     But I don’t follow traditional patterns… and yet, I really don’t think my numbers are worse than other guys in this community.

     Maybe they are??

     >> why not chill with her on the couch in your living room and work on her arousal there?

     It is a curious thing about my game that I never sit girls down in my house. We always hang out in the kitchen, usually standing. I am convinced it is much easier to kiss a girl when she is standing up (or laying down), vs sitting.

     And I think it’s easier to escalate when I talking… not sitting on the couch pretending to watch a movie.

     That “movie move” is way beyond plausible deniabilty from my POV. It’s too cliche and “high school” for me. I never do it. I make a move. And then calibrate from there. If it’s on… both the guy and girl want to get to it… why turn toward a movie when it’s on??

     I know I am unusual in this way.

     >> pouncing on her to kiss and lift her is you being the dangerous monster

     Yeah. It’s rad, huh! : ]

     >> “We were chilling on the couch watching a movie and…”

     In some very rare circumstances, I have done this… but this appealed to me more when I was AFC.

     Now that I know how to escalate… she knows what’s up… I don’t want to be “jarring”… but trying to put on a movie… would be going backwards for me.

     I don’t know… I am thinking about all this.

     Reply
     • Flat Lander says:

       04/23/2018 at 10:34 pm

       Kino at the restaurant is happy, relaxed foreplay while sitting (soft dominance as per Krauser). Why the switch to the dangerous monster persona at your place (hard dominance)?

       Couch and tea, movie, photo album, your stickers, silly YT videos are the ramp.

       Some girls are DTF (like Miss Velvet Mouth http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/sex-velvet-mouth/) and will make a beeline for the bedroom. Others may need a gentler ramp.

       Reply
3. The Red Quest says:

   04/24/2018 at 3:11 pm

   I like married or taken chicks. Don’t know what that says about me but it’s true.

   I also laugh at the guys who are like, “All chicks cheat all the time.” Yeah buddy, try to get them to cheat with *you*, then.

   It’s true of course that a lot of chicks will cheat, but it has to be a right guy, right moment thing. Part of game is being prepared to be that guy.

   Reply
4. Lucretius says:

   04/25/2018 at 4:29 pm

   [[Continuing here as cannot post more direct replies]]

   I am a bit surprised as I thought I was more in line with what you were explaining earlier but I seem to have had it a bit backwards.

   On saying ‘fuck’ this is only going to be socially workable on a friday / saturday night while dressed in jeans and not during the day to / from office in a suit. I think the point would be to add “strong emphasis” therefore the word ‘fuck’ is used.

   Your comment on the initial openers make more sense if I am constantly appending [to have sex] with it.
   If I keep this mentally as I am speaking, then my conversation would be going in a specific direction because I mentally have to make it congruent with [to have sex].

   In this case, I can clearly see why talking about scarf doesnt make sense.

   On the line “– I was walking and you caught my eye, who are you?”, I wasnt thinking of the justification but as a way to lead to ‘who are you’ – so is good point that you mention this. It will adjust my perspective.

   On the scarf thing, it was to neg (I did mention it there). Scarf could of been replaced by any other item.

   Be good to see your long form response when you have a moment. I obviously have a lot of mental re-arranging todo to drive interactions forwards. There certainly appears to be a perspective shift that I need to make to see the under-current discussion within the ‘overt’ discussion. It sounds like everything said has to be around moving to having sex or probing how to get to having sex by moving through topics and taking doors while avoiding walls.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/25/2018 at 6:42 pm

     Yes. “are you a good fuck / are you worth my time / are you crazy / are you worth having sex with you” should be on the back of your mind at all points. When you say “hi” it should be communicating “Hi, let’s fuck”.

     At the same time, what the girl has on her mind at all times is “is he top or bottom guy?”, and the presence of top guy arouses her, stimulates her and excites her, makes her ‘easy’; while the presence of bottom guy makes her scared, repulsed, closed, difficult. So she’ll throw things at you, but clues or bait for top guy to take her, and walls or obstacles or bait for screening out bottom guy. The whole courtship is a shit test. Just that the top guy never sees the ‘shit’ part, because all the shit is for the bottom guy.

     So she’s asking on the back of her mind if you’re top guy, and you’re asking on the back of yours if she’s worth a fuck. The context of it all is [to have sex].

     This is how initiating a conversation about scarfs with the intention to neg her goes nowhere. Or why beta boring rapport or interview mode goes nowhere. Or why she won’t take the initiative when you fail to lead. You’re being screened – so is she. If you give her free validation it means you’re not screening which means you’re not top guy which means she’ll make that interaction more difficult.
     Etc.

     There’s a specific behavior from top guy > down to the girl when she says YES to everything.

     It varies from girl to girl but the path is always there. Your job is to channel that.

     Reply
5. Lucretius says:

   04/25/2018 at 8:16 pm

   “There’s a specific behavior from top guy > down to the girl when she says YES to everything.”

   Can you expand more on this? A brief (hypothetical) example always helps.

   (fyi, I find your comments very useful and want to say thank you for taking the time to post as you are doing)

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/25/2018 at 8:34 pm

     No problem – check the ‘kissing a virgin mormon girl’ thread from a few weeks ago with a few hundred comments, there’s a lot of back and forth on this subject there and some case examples

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       04/27/2018 at 8:41 pm

       Still going through the ‘mormon girl’ thread (I am rereading from the top).
       It is the same thread that brought me to the blog.

       The thread is around text game which has improved substantially from my side in following the principles that you have mentioned but in text game the ‘moves’ are not instant as each side can think about it for a few seconds to hours before replying.

       A thought that is always floating in my mind is the ‘in person’ interaction in that I could imagine that the mechanics would have to be the same as via text but I feel (perhaps wrongly?) that the verbal flow of the interaction would be different.

       Keeping to initial stop (the initial thread of Nash post), my question is around two points:
       Q1. What would be common ‘beta/bottom guy bait’ that girls put out there in person during a set (initial stop). Do you have an examples from your experience?

       On a personal example, I was waiting for metro and saw a girl that I started a chat with. The opener was terrible [was before reading your points] (opener = why you dressed all in black?) but she kept talking and then she had a full arm tattoo sleeve which when I asked her about it she really responded (face lit up) like she was ‘proud’ / wanted to show it off. There was a bit more blah blah and then the next bit of conversation was about a comment her professor made that she would have difficulty in finding a job because of tattoo. She paused for a moment and then said ‘or maybe I just wont find a job and be unemployed’. Here I could identify that this last statement of hers was ‘beta / bottom guy’ bait as a ‘bottom guy’ would try to build rapport and say something like ‘dont worry, I am sure you’ll find a job no problem’. My response was ‘That is a terrible way to look at it but if that is your viewpoint’. She reacted on this in a bit of surprise which gave me a sense that I must of ‘passed’.

       If I rephrase my question, is ‘beta / bottom guy’ bait any statement / question from a girl that moves the interaction away from sex and towards the girls problems / woes where the bait is for the bottom guy to build rapport (as per above) or onto some topic about the guy (eg. clothes, job) where the ‘bottom guy’ would play up that area (ie. validate to her)?

       Q2. If during a verbal interaction with a girl (before escalation), the conversation stalls, how does one pick it up again? An example may be where the conversation is moving forward but then the guy misses the topic cue to continue and goes off in another direction, then girl stops talking. Would the guy need to just talk on a random situational topic and see if it hits something (ie. she reacts positively – smile, giggles, eyes, legs crossed, etc) or try to continue a previous topic where she reacted to before from the verbal cue she gave.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:03 pm

         Hey man. When she ‘lit’s up’ that’s the door, the arousal, etc. You’ve just found a sweet spot.

         The focus for you should be:

         How do you rub that spot more in a way that will arouse her, how do you turn this into sex? this is why:

         ‘That is a terrible way to look at it but if that is your viewpoint’.

         Is shit game.

         But why is it shit game?

         Because that statement is a ‘wall’ that you introduced, right where she’s glowing you and telling you she wants to be fucked.

         And you judge / reject her instead of progressing.

         So what would be escalation? a reward.

         ————————-

         “She paused for a moment and then said ‘or maybe I just wont find a job and be unemployed’.”

         Me: that’s ok, who needs a job? ;-)

         Me: We can always live under the bridge and live on food stamps

         Me: I’ll play the bongo and you pass on the hat. And our seven kids will be distracting people and stealing their wallets. We’ll be fine.

         ————————-

         That above is me roleplaying into her scenario. See how I made it about “her and me”. The “who needs a job” is obviously a joke, so she giggles some. When she giggles I take that and say “WE” so I escalate. When she tunes to that I increase the absurdity

         Then I’d bring it down

         ————————–

         Me: actually – there are many jobs you can do as tattooed as much as you want. Anyone who doesn’t hire you for having a tattoo is an idiot.

         Me: Well I wouldn’t hire you. But that’s because Im a jerk

         ————————–

         In the above I “bring it down to earth again” and give her some valid rapport and validation. But then I break that immediately by saying I wouldn’t hire her, and again into roleplay

         ————————-

         Me: Im sure you can do great things. How good are you making breakfast?

         Me: Do you know how to make your man happy.

         Me: Oh yeah.

         ————————-

         In a normal scenario I’d be making out with her already.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           04/27/2018 at 9:30 pm

           ”
           Me: that’s ok, who needs a job? ;-)

           Me: We can always live under the bridge and live on food stamps

           Me: I’ll play the bongo and you pass on the hat. And our seven kids will be distracting people and stealing their wallets. We’ll be fine.
           ”

           When reading the above, I thought these were three separate possible responses but you actually mean saying all of them in sequence.

           The first seemed like straight rapport (which I would move away from on instinct). The second connected her and me but still looks strange (the thought of food stamps). The third sounds really good and I can see myself saying this to the girl without hesitation. But the ‘magic’ comes in when all three area said in together. Replaying the interaction in my mind, if I were to use the above three, it is like I would be teasing her + connecting her & me + being playfully imaginative.

           I could see how the above would create an emotional impact while connecting her to me. Before bringing everything back to earth and the original tone / vibe of the discussion before the rollercoaster.

           If I try to put your response to Q1, the beta / bottom guy bait can be practically turned around to show top guy just by being almost absurdly playful while connecting her and me. Am I on the right track?

           The two links have been added to my reading list. Somewhat a bit of a shit feeling that my instinct appear to be all wrong on this even though it kinda felt I was on the right path.

           Got a lot of mental re-arranging todo…

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             04/27/2018 at 9:50 pm

             It’s ok man, we all go through a lot of re-arranging. Then the pieces fall into place.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               04/28/2018 at 7:28 am

               As I am now falling down the rabbit hole with my mental schemas now being taken apart, a related topic would be kino (touching).

               It happens often that I am verbally interacting with a girl and she would take a step closer (if we are standing) and she gently touches my arm or shoulder for 1-2seconds (not rubbing but just placing it there) before removing it. This is all done without bringing attention to what she is doing (ie. eye contact doesnt change / voice doesnt change / discussion doesnt change).

               My current reaction is no reaction (ie. I dont flintch or move or look at her touching or mention any touching) but given my track records over the past few comments, it is best to check this if there is a more appropriate response.
               I would know that if I flintch or draw attention to it, it would be bad (signalling that I am not use to it), if I shake it off it would communicate (not interested). My current rationale to being non-reactive is to communicate that this happens from girls do this all the time. My mind says that it could be a test from the girl to see how I react but again from reading your points, I think I am missing something on how to move it forward. Obviously, her touching me is a sign she likes me.

               To be clear, the context for the above is PUBLIC meaning that I am at a drinks events at a bar (purpose of event = meet people) in a group with the girl (eg 3-4 people) with many people around us periodically entering the group and leaving the group (mainly guys but also girls). Here I would be meeting the girl for the first time.

               The above is to contrast with PRIVATE which would include being alone in apartment (If she did this, I escalate in response) or if we are at a bar / restaurant where people are not joining / leaving the group (I would subtly escalate without drawing attention – hand on waist / leg / back where others cannot see).

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/28/2018 at 7:48 am

               That means she’s comfortable, touching is normal behavior. It also means she’s comfortable enough to want to touch you. It also means she wants to be touched. So do more kino – take it as a green light.

               Also you should be doing the same, touch her as you speak. Also touch her friends, and your friends, and the people around you, etc. Touching is fine. There was this guy called Lance Mason pickup 101 with a lot of good advice on how to do social kino, maybe there are videos around still

           • YOHAMI says:

             04/27/2018 at 9:56 pm

             This guy is on point most of the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNTT8po6Kg

             Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:03 pm

         Theck the comments here

         http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/paul-janka-escalation-lmr-free-ebook-download/

         Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:04 pm

         And

         http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/fast-seduction-vs-date-model/

         Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/27/2018 at 9:24 pm

         Re: traps for bottom guy.

         The TRAP for bottom guy is the rejection.

         When the girl sets a wall, a difficulty, plays hard to get, assumes an authority position and judges down etc.

         The bottom frame guy immediately cedes power, pursues more, validates to her, invests more, improves the offer.

         She moves away, bottom guy chases her.

         She shows little interest, bottom guy shows more interest.

         The trap for bottom guy is that she’ll offer LESS at some points. And if you offer MORE, then you’re bottom guy.

         That’s pretty much the trap.

         Then there are other things that bottom frame makes you do that are not traps the girl sets for you, but stupid things you do just because

         1) You don’t escalate on her arousal. She gives you cues, IOIs, openings, she’s ready and getting there, but you don’t act on time, you don’t take her, you miss the window

         And

         2) You push ahead blindly moving ahead of her actual state of arousal. Try to kiss her before she’s ready, try to fuck her before she’s ready etc. This is basically the result of 1), because you failed to arouse her so when you finally get your internal courage to move ahead, you’re doing it alone instead of taking her there with you

         And

         3) Frame clash. AKA you have your way of getting things done and it collides with hers so you sabbotage the progression.

         —————-

         If you note above – all the things circle around being able to understand what is an opening, what is a wall, and what to do each time.

         Bottom frame is ‘scarcity and struggle’ so it makes you go for the walls, miss or being blind to the opportunities, and move ahead of the pace, or not move at all, so you keep producing walls and missing on openings before the girl quickly decides her time is better spent elsewhere.

         And – the other thing bottom guy does is ‘overinvest’ or try to make a super deal where the girl wins with bonus and whistles, which for the girl means your value is so lo you have to fill the gap with extra stuff and accommodations, so she’s not longer attracted to you.

         And for all the above sometimes the girl will offer bait so see how you perform.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           04/29/2018 at 11:27 am

           Been reading quite a bit on the other comments from the links your provided. If I am understanding this correctly, there would actually be three components that may appear when interacting with a girl: Wall, door and obstacle.

           I cannot find a specific mention from yourself on an element defined as ‘obstacle’ but I do see it when you are discussing a particular point (ie. girl will throw something at you just to see what you do).

           As case example after meeting girl and moving to new venue (3 weeks back), I was at drinks with group of people (expat drinks) and there was a group of people (other 2 guys + 3 girls). I could tell that I was ahead of the other guys and that a specific girl was interacting with me differently than other guys (ie. showing interest). As the drinks where winding down, I was able to move closer to her (stand next to her) and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. The discussion was like this.

           Me : Drinks here is dying down. Lets you and me get a drink somewhere else?
           Her: Where?

           Me : Uhhh, dont know any places around here and only know in [certain area] (she know this area is in area where I live)
           Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right? *pause*

           Me : I walked but it is not that long a walk, around 20min
           Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me

           Me : Do you have a cargo space on the bike? You can drive and me on the back (cargo area)
           Her: I do have cargo space in front and back but it has a box for carrying things … but I also have a boyfriend so …

           Me : Errr … that wouldnt work if you have a boyfriend
           Her: But this girl over there looks like she needs saving? (she pointing to other girl at other end of the table where guy is talking her ear off. I had spoken with that girl earlier)

           Me : Her issues are not my problem
           Her: hahahahahaha

           I leave drinks event at this point.

           Following the points that have been discussed, I can pick out where I went wrong in most of the parts above:
           1. When proposing drinks, I should of said “lets go to [certain area]” as leading and sure in my suggestion instead of giving it as an “i dont know here but there is ok” type of option
           2. On the putting me as cargo and her driving, this was silly. I should of proposed the opposite
           3. On her bike having box front and back preventing ‘people’ from getting on is what I am seeing as the obstacle (discussed more below)
           4. Her mentioning the boyfriend was the wall and I banged my head against it by acknowledging it. I should of just ignored it as I cannot think of any way to turn this around (suggestions here would be good if this comes up as obstacle or if it a dead hard wall where things are already over).

           Focusing on point 3 above, this is what I see as the girl putting in an obstacle. If I am following the thread of thought, the appropriate response would be something like:

           Me : Do you have a cargo space on the bike?
           Her: I do have cargo space in front and back but it has a box for carrying things

           Me: Excellent, I put get in the front cargo box and I drive the bike to the bar like I stole both you and it and If I hear the police sirens, I will lose then in the alley ways and we talk about the police chase over drinks ;)

           Would the above be more inline with what I should be doing?

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             04/29/2018 at 11:55 am

             Correction:

             Me: Excellent, I put get in the front cargo box and I drive the bike to the bar like I stole both you and it and If we hear the police sirens, we lose then in the alley ways and we talk about the police chase over drinks ;)

             The ‘I will lose them’ is changed to ‘we will lose them’. Mind set was still I am doing things but it should be ‘we’ are doing things together.

             Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             04/29/2018 at 6:32 pm

             Ok, funny. Your original response for her bike issue was bottom guy, and your new approach is much worse, much more bottom guy. You’re improving the bottom guy, thus being even more bottom.

             Why?

             Because the bike is the ‘wall’. She’s rejecting you with it. The bike is ‘rejection’. Rejection is for bottom guy. She would not give that excuse to Leonardo Dicaprio, so the bike is inconsequential. In the original response you took it at face value and tried to solve it, and in the new situation you got extra creative with it. What are you being specially creative with?

             With her arousal? did she shine and lit up and got closer and things were getting warmer and you escalated there?

             Or did she give you an obstacle and that’s where you got creative?

             Do you see it?

             Rejection is the trap for bottom guy. She gave you a wall: and you invested MORE.

             See what I said a few comments back about rejection is the trap for bottom guy and when she offers rejection, bottom guy becomes submissive to it and over-invests?

             That’s what you have to unlearn.

             But first the basics.

             ————————————————–

             “and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. ”

             If you’re going to invite her somewhere, make sure she’s going to say yes. When you are going to escalate, get her compliance first. In other words, make sure the temperature is right, make sure she’s into you, etc. Don’t put her on a spot where she has to say yes/no unless you’ve led her into yes territory. In this case you moved ahead of the pace, you pushed to isolate her before she was ready, so she set a wall.

             There are only walls and doors (in my analogy) so obstacles are walls btw.

             “and invited her to get a drink somewhere else that night. ”

             Why?

             Why not escalating and getting her into you where you are? why try to extract her?

             Anyway. Note the contrast with this:

             “Me : Her issues are not my problem
             Her: hahahahahaha”

             Do you see the ‘hahahahaha’ ? that’s arousal. So there is where you have to invest. You not taking on the problems of some other girl, is you not being bottom guy for that other girl, which arouses this girl. But to this girl, you want to take her problems and you try to solve them. Even though these are fake problems.

             Look at it

             —————————–

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             That’s a wall.

             What do you do with a wall? you ignore it. Her wall is her problem not yours. She can bait a bottom guy with it but not you. So her bike is the wall, but there’s also an opening, a door. What is it?

             She’s talking to you, so she’s into you, that’s the opening.

             Maybe the opening is that she will fuck you in the bathroom but she wont’ walk 20 min to another bar.

             Maybe the opening is she needs another 20 min and a kiss before being ready to be extracted. The opening is there. Go back in your memories and understand the things she did react to. What did you do that made her aroused?

             So it’s not about the bike and her boyfriend. That’s not where your focus has to go. Focus on the YES. Don’t focus on her resistance.

             Makes sense?

             If you focus on her YES and keep arousing her, and when you know she’ll say yes then you move on to extract her, she’ll give a minimal game or resistance but it wont be real, and you won’t engage with it.

             So let’s say this wall from her was a minimal shit test that can be dealt with top-guy style. Pay attention

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             The solution to that is escalation. You escalate by pushing away the wall, or ignoring it, while escalating on her arousal. Or, you lead strongly into her YES, and bypass the NO.

             You can also smash the wall if you feel like it. Here are several anternatives

             ———–

             “Her: Hmmm … I came by bicycle but you by tram, right?
             Her: I would have to walk with the bike and that doesnt work for me”

             Me: Your issues are not my problem (see?)

             * * *

             Me: Don’t be boring. Let’s go.

             * * *

             Me: We’ll come for your bike later

             * * *

             Me: What kind of loser rides a bike to a bar?
             Me: I bet is a pink barbie bike with a lasso on it?
             Me: I want to see it, show me

             And when you’re out: make out and take her home.

             ————————-

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               04/29/2018 at 7:52 pm

               In reading your explanation, I can now see that the ‘obstacle’ is actually a wall and have to get this right in my mind. At the time, I was really thinking it being a logistical problem where I would have to somehow solve it to move her.

               For background purposes, If I think back, i was getting attention from her as I was not behaving like the other two guys who were constantly trying to get rapport with the girls on topics they were bringing up or various conversation threads while I was generally breaking rapport by giving different opinion on whatever topic or being a bit sharper with my words (wasnt always calculated). I also detected that she liked me when the discussion turned to languages and the one guy was arabic and she asked him (pointing to me) to say ‘That is a nice ring’. I had a silver snake ring on finger and she was asking about it and if it meant something (I said no but now think I should of made some story about eve and the snake that tempted her in the garden of eden). There was also some various other topics that the group of people were going on and I was directing the conversation and pulling in other peoples opinions on certain parts. In short, I was leading the group discussion more often than not. The blend of things are what likely created attraction from her but turns out not solidly enough.

               In total, I had already reached the end of the evening and it was either ask and try to get her out or just leave without trying. I decided to try not knowing where I was at with her and the previous post is how the end part went. Location would not of allowed anything just given the setup of the event (although I would be shit scared to try anything like that at current skill level).

               You mention a point on ‘escalation’ if she sets a wall. I have always understood escalation as being the physical escalation (ie. touching, kissing, etc) and not the verbal escalation. Would the ‘escalation on wall’ (ie. pushing the wall) be the three possible answers you mentioned? Most of your posts say to ignore the wall (ie. pretend i didnt hear it) but pushing the wall is something that is not clear how todo without resulting in my acknowledging + engaging with it somehow.

               As a general question, if after an interaction that was not certain on the girls compliance but conditions force it (remember I am still unlearning + learning), is it best to try anyways to move the girl to a new location (from initial group location) or is it best to just leave it unless there is 100% certainly she will come?

               Again, Thank you for taking to time to help ‘cleanse my mind’ of bottom guy. Bit by bit, it is starting to fall in place.

             • YOHAMI says:

               04/29/2018 at 8:54 pm

               It’s “escalation on her arousal” while “pushing AWAY the wall”

               Not ‘pushing the wall’ as if you were trying to knock it down or solve it. You’re rejecting the wall, or turning it into an opportunity.

               In your case it might have been to bang her in the bathroom.

               Or getting her contact to bang her later.

               Or even better than getting her contact, already making plans to go somewhere some other time.

               But sure sometimes you don’t know what’s the actual temperature and you make a move. That’s like flipping a coin and it’s valid.

               If the result of you flipping the coin and making a move she’s not ready for is getting a ‘wall’ like you did there, then push ‘away’ the wall, neg her, push her away etc, WHILE you rub her the right way in some other way.

               Here’s a case example from Riv – the girl he was going to meet wanted to bring a friend (which is a wall to the possibility of having sex), so the solution was to flirt to the friend through the girl, then reject the idea, see how the girl reacted (predictably)

               https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/yohami-helps-rivelino-text-game/

             • J.S. says:

               06/15/2018 at 5:05 am

               “Maybe the opening is that she will fuck you in the bathroom but she wont’ walk 20 min to another bar.”

               How do bathroom fucks, say in a dance-bar, work?

               You lead her there silently after a heavy make-out? You wait until she goes there herself and follow her / meet her on the exit and then take her inside? There is one small corridor with multiple bathrooms in the club I have in mind.

6. Lucretius says:

   04/30/2018 at 6:15 pm

   I needed to re-read everything again (whole thread) and it is now at the third time.
   The more times I read it, the more the words start to mean something different and the picture is starting to form in my mind.

   Paradoxically, it has created a problem in that I am now having difficulty in opening girls because what I thought was right before was allowing the conversation to at minimum get started with varying degrees of success. Now however, I am second guessing myself since i started “game” 9 months back.

   I can understand that leading with ‘direct intent’ from the very open would have to be the only way to open girls at a night venue (eg. bar) because of the time (it is dark) and the context (girls are out for party / sex).
   The issue in the above is for during the day where I am going to work (dressed in a suit) or coming from work and am waiting for the metro like everyone else and I see a girl I like and make some comment to get the discussion going. Something says that if I open at 9am with ‘your cute, who are you?’ that I am not being socially ‘normal’ but if I start with something else contextual / situational / notice something about her that she responds to and then transition into something like ‘but your cute, who are you?’, then it feels like it makes social sense and can continue from there.

   Does it appear like I am perhaps over thinking things on this aspect?

   Thinking back, when I have no structure and am just feeling good + chatty is when the girls reaction is good and here I am just talking about whatever nonsense comes to my head in the moment.

   Any time I put a structure to it (or try to put a structure to it), everything freezes up and instinctively I dont talk to the girl. I dont get approach anxiety like during the first 10 sets i ever did but there is something that doesnt feel right and this likely is being communicated in my vibe. From the past 2 weeks, I just instinctively avoided talking to the girl because of the above.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     04/30/2018 at 6:49 pm

     Yeah. So what I’d advise you is stop trying to game the girls and just talk to them. Open ‘interesting conversations’ with girls and guys, be sociable. Remove the trickery. Once you’re comfortable talking to anyone, in any situation, add flirting to the mix.

     Daygame is about the worst situation I can think of for a beginner to learn game. The numbers are on my side of this interpretation, as the saying is you need ‘a thousand of approaches’ just to get started, then years of suck, then even at a moderately advanced level you still need to open 20 girls to get a few phone numbers. This is insanity.

     If you’re an attractive man, which means you maximized your potential, and you have good social skills, and you’re a player (which means you are banging girls left and right), and you have a commanding but relaxed tone voice, and you’re indifferent to outcome but you know what you want, and you know how to flirt, etc – if you are already THE MAN, if you’re TOP GUY, if you’re ALPHA, if you know perfectly what you’re doing, then… then… you can go anywhere during day, start talking to a girl you like, and she’ll know immediately what’s up, and you’ll flirt and banter and make her feel things and she’ll be giving you her contact desperately so you can take her out and bang her.

     If you’re not the above, well that’s where your aim should be. Being that guy.

     This whole other approach where you go after a number of girls with a few phrases and a few techniques in order to get their phones etc – that’s just nonsense. That process has NOTHING to do with actually fucking girls. It’s worlds apart.

     So the goal should be to becoming the guy who can fuck the girls he likes, a guy who’s attractive, and leads. A guy the girls see across the street and think “wow I wish that guy would talk to me”. If you’re not that guy all the effort put elsewhere is ultimately misplaced.

     To circle it back then – when I say “learn to have interesting converstions with just anyone” is because you need to be able to talk, cold read, ping things that are going to elicit emotion, have enough empathy and curiosity to read and stimulate another human being, being social enough that it doesn’t produce any kind of fear to start a conversation, etc. That’s just level 1. Then you need to learn to read these same things in a sexual setup, aka, know how to flirt, how to read interest, how to generate interest. How to tell stories. How to set and cross boundaries. This is deep and wide.

     Then you need to learn to lead, command, double down, manage relationships, create and sustain a chain of command. Then you need to learn all of the above from a higher position of abundance, as in you’re the one running the party and inviting people in.

     Without this stuff – it doesn’t matter if you yad stop or approach sideways or the phrases you say and what kind of intent. If you’re not ‘the man’ you’re playing a game that is set against you. So how you become the man? that’s deeper.

     But if you’re “the man” you can tell a girl: hey you’re cute, who are you? and it doesn’t matter what you’re dressed like and what else is going on.

     You can force yourself to do so and see what happens. All the ‘disconnect’ you’ll feel is just the gap between your actual you and the version of yourself you have to become.

     There’s this guy Tim (aka fuckboy) who’s talking about this stuff recently, watch his stuff, he’s on point on everything I’ve seen from him so far. He does do Daygame so there’s videos of him to watch and compare.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       04/30/2018 at 6:59 pm

       Watch all you can from this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNTT8po6Kg he uses a different terminology that I do, but we’re talking about the same

       In his first live video he explains how he got ‘good’ at game after years of being a PUA because he befriended ‘top social guys’ like promoters and biz owners etc and guys in command who had a lot of entitlement, aka what I call ‘Top guy frame” so he learned to be like that. In most his daygame videos he does say stuff like “you’re cute who are you”. Note how the girls react.

       Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       04/30/2018 at 9:02 pm

       Your reply articulates what was a very vague feeling in the back of my head for a while but one that I could not pin down.

       From a work / office standpoint, I am able to speak with various levels of people within the hierarchy including doing presentation in front of 30-40 people including my management without any sort of nervousness.

       From a social interaction standpoint, I have absolutely ZERO problem is speaking to both guys and girl just to talk with them about whatever. Previously, when it came to sex, the girls were moving things along more than me (I was clueless they wanted sex) but after sex, my brain saw sex coming from girl and then ‘malfunctioned’ into bottom guy (with related behaviours) which caused me to lose girls afterwards except girls I didnt care about at all who paradoxically then stuck to me like glue.

       Due to ending a particular relationship with a girl, I start doing “game” as a way forward and then everything ‘malfunctions’ again (ie. worse results than no game – here I mean daygame styled via Krauser / Tom / etc). From daygame the key positive outcome was that it opened up the possibility of just meeting girls and this changed my perspective because I was speaking with random girls and getting numbers (just like Nash is doing) which is something I never did before and it felt GOOD. Before it was all social circle.

       The issue then is that I always tried to fit girls into the model and I would keep losing them because I thought I needed todo Coffee + Drink 1 + Drink 2 then Sex whereas I recall a girl wanted sex 40min after meeting her (2 min talk with immediate coffee instadate with just under 40min chitchat + kino) but I was like ‘lets do a drink on friday’ (5 days away) and ofcourse she cooled down by then and it was over.

       To be clear, I have nothing against any PUA but the problem for me personally from this discussion is that I am trying to ‘follow a model / structure’ to reach sex and this itself is the obstacle (that I seem to be putting in my own way) and because it is someone else’s model, I dont know if I am doing it right or not which causes me to get nervous and freeze up. It isnt rejection from the girl (ie. girl says no) that is driving this problem but if I am doing the ‘model’ right or not and therefore failing (at applying the model) – this is all subconscious but is becoming visible from the discussions over the past few days. The logic may be ‘if bad at model then no sex’ but I have had sex before applying and kind of model, therefore causing a cognitive dissonance on what is required to reach sex.

       It is like one psychological issue is masking another and this would explain why i get good results (ie. good girl response) when I am just ‘freestyling’ it in the moment and talking about whatever. As there is no model, everything flows smoothly (in my case) because I am not aiming success or failure, I am just talking to the girl as I feel good. Afterwards when my vibe calms down, my mind turns to model (ie. formal structure) when it comes to texts and things again fall apart (predictably looking now in hindsight).

       From reading your responses, you are not providing me (and other readers) with a model or playbook but are providing principles to follow (from what I have watched, Tim is doing the same). Techniques will always be there (eg. story telling, roleplay, teasing, etc) but the principles are what is shaping my mind (eg. girl always DTF, go for doors, avoid walls, etc).

       It is short sentences such as those below that I am referring to:

       ***
       “At the same time, what the girl has on her mind at all times is “is he top or bottom guy?”, and the presence of top guy arouses her, stimulates her and excites her, makes her ‘easy’; while the presence of bottom guy makes her scared, repulsed, closed, difficult. So she’ll throw things at you, but clues or bait for top guy to take her, and walls or obstacles or bait for screening out bottom guy. The whole courtship is a shit test. Just that the top guy never sees the ‘shit’ part, because all the shit is for the bottom guy.

       So she’s asking on the back of her mind if you’re top guy, and you’re asking on the back of yours if she’s worth a fuck. The context of it all is [to have sex].”
       ***

       The above is what sets the interaction and it is my function / responsibility to work the interaction within the above context more towards sex with the girl if I like the girl and not to follow a particular “model” to get sex. I need to look for more principles like they are articulated above. Anything else that has not been mentioned yet? (Still going through your previous links but will also start scanning through Nash blog)

       My focus needs to be to strip away everything daygame + PUA over the coming weeks and then start over by just interacting with girls as I was before on feel good vibe while applying the ‘principles’ that you have mentioned thus far (ie. context = to have sex).

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         04/30/2018 at 9:38 pm

         Yes – yes yes. You got it.

         Freestyle is perfect. The thing to keep an eye on is ‘where you’re coming from’ which is why I talk about frame here all the time.

         It’s logical that you’ve getting worse results ‘with game’ and structure than you had before. You put some stuff on the way that has to be taken out. The principles is what matters.

         It’s like a tennis match. You need a repertoire of techniques, a vocabulary. You need to know what is what. What you can’t have is a match pre-scripted, because each player on the other side of the net is going to do something different, and you need to act / react on the spot.

         What matters is that you know what’s going on, and you know why you’re there, you know what’s the win scenario, what’s the lose scenario, and you adapt to each situation and make the most of it.

         There’s no structure that you can do all the time and gets you results. If you are fixed on a form, then you’ll only be compatible with the rare situation when the other player miraculously does exactly what’s needed for you to win with a pre-scripted routine. But if you look at it – is that even possible? chances are the girl is the one playing along and gaming you :-) otherwise how could you even bang her, if you don’t know what you’re doing? because she made it happen.

         Someone’s got to make it happen. If you don’t know what you’re doing, then she is the driving force.

         All this above is why PUAs numbers are abysmal, and proper players bang 10+ a month if they want to.

         At the same time if you ‘freestyle’ and just have a toolset of techniques, then a the end of the day all the games are the same and all the girls are the same. Because the principles are strong and immutable. Top guy always gets the girl, and bottom guy always loses the girl. The rest is fine details. But you get a LOT (LOT) of mileage by every little inch of top guy you manage to pull off, even if you don’t know what you’re doing. Also girls get in trance when stimulated, even if you fuck up they rewrite the story on their minds in your favor if stimulated (and rewrite it against you if not!).

         Anyway. Focus on being THE MAN.

         If you’re already good at socialization, practice adding more cocky funny, learn to put yourself on a pedestal, flirt more, tease more, lead more, and learn to deal with women like they really are: completely feral animals. Learn to not invest on their rejections and walls and not work extra hard when they want to make you do so, but set your own boundaries and do your own screening, while not taking any of it seriously. Thats the principle. You have to be at the top of your own world and nothing can knock you down from it – and understand that half her screening process will be to try to knock you down from it, which you must reply by not letting her and putting her in her place; and the other half of her screening will be throwing her pussy at you to see if you can take it, to which you have to escalate and take her x10. In the shortest amount of time possible. All without needing her. All like you can have any girl like her or better in half the time if you wanted. And with ease.

         There’s no ‘structure’ for that.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           04/30/2018 at 9:52 pm

           This guy has lots of good tips on charisma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH0UqZSv9ks

           Reply
7. Lucretius says:

   05/03/2018 at 5:16 pm

   I have a curious thought on rapport.

   I can understand why a girl may find rapport building by the guy to be unattractive in that the guy may be “sucking up” to her by agreeing + being supportive of the girl. This indirectly could communicate “lower value” as the guy may not have a thought of his own. Girls could also use the guys rapport building as bait for a trap to see if the guy is going to always be agreeable on everything.

   The question is why would a girl find ‘breaking rapport’ to be attractive.
   – Would it be a sense of independence that the guy exhibits in having his own opinions on a topic that is attractive?
   – Would it be that be disagreeing, the guy shows that he is not “sucking up” to the girl?
   – Would it be that the guy having shown disagreement (ie. breaking rapport) has the girl wanting to agree with him instead of him with her?
   – Some other reason that I cannot think of at the moment?

   I am looking for the above understanding to avoid just needlessly breaking rapport just so I am actually breaking rapport. I would imagine that breaking rapport 100% of the time would eventually have the inverse effect of attraction.

   My gut says that somewhere there has to be a balance – for me to find this point, it would be good to have a better understanding of rapport / breaking rapport from what other people theorize or have experienced. I can easily see girls using rapport building + breaking as a test of a guy.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     05/03/2018 at 6:32 pm

     It’s simpler, and it’s because biology. What hols the whole scheme together, is that girls are intrinsically attracted to the men at the top of the power pyramid.

     Everything about these men is attractive.

     When a behavior is naturally attractive to women, it’s always a behavior that is compatible with being at the top of the pyramid.

     When a behavior is naturally unattractive, it’s always a behavior that is incompatible with being at the top, or worse, compatible with being at the bottom.

     When a behavior is neutral, then it’s always a behavior that can be done by both men at the top and the bottom. In such cases you’ll see that girls love the behavior when a man from the top does it, but hate it when it comes from a man from the bottom.

     —–

     So what’s the deal with rapport?

     Think of the male celebrities when they enter a room and everyone knows who they are and want a piece. Or, imagine you’re a celebrity and enter a room and there are 40 guys looking up to you, 20 other wanting to start trouble with you, and 50 girls all dying to fuck your brains out. You enter that place, you say hi.

     You go from one person to another, do some chit chat, and move on. Eventually a group forms around you, you talk to the group, then you escape the group, and a new one forms around you, Then you find a couple of people you already like and you talk to them for some longer time, then someone important comes trying to drag you away to introduce you to someone else. And on, and on, and on, and on.

     Now look at what each interaction consists of.

     There are all micro relationships, all high intensity, all full of significance, you probably were nice to a bunch of people, an asshole to a few of them, and then you move on. For everyone who wanted more of you, which is everyone there, everyone of them is hung up wanting ‘more’.

     That interaction is something girls crave.

     That interaction precisely.

     And it’s hardwired.

     Now contrast – in that same room there’s another guy who nobody is interested in, a perfectly reasonable and good looking and smart and nice guy with all the time and attention in the world to give. He starts talking to a girl he likes and wants to engage in conversation, wants to get to know her, what are her dreams and aspirations, who is she, also would love to share his own thoughts and secrets and expose himself, and has all the time in the world to do so. So he’s having a conversation with this girl, and then…

     The famous dude comes to order some drink, sees the girl, tells the bartender “give this girl anything she likes” then stops by, rants / flirts for a couple minutes and leaves.

     Then the girl is set against the bar again talking to the nicer guy.

     So – who does she want to fuck now?

     ————————————–

     It’s hardwired.

     Breaking rapport is attractive because it’s compatible with top guy frame. That’s all.

     If you want to micro analyze it, breaking rapport means you don’t need the interaction and have better things to do, and she’s not interesting enough – YET. She may earn that in the future, but right now, going to the point, the top guy would talk to her to screen if she’s fertile and not crazy and figure if she passes his boner test and then bang her shortly after. THIS is the sexual courtship. He may get to know her AFTER. After sex, maybe, have a nice chat. Maybe after five or six encounters. But the sexual courtship is about penis in vagina (that’s why you are talking to her, isn’t it), not about what’s your childhood like and what are your passions and what’s your job like and what did you have for breakfast, is your car working, tell me the names of your pets, and keep stretching this kind of bullshit for DATES.

     So again.

     Rapport is unattractive because it’s what beta guys do when they can’t just fuck the girl.

     And rapport is specially unattractive when the bottom guy tries to offer it as it had any value, like when rapport comes along with “caring” and then the rapport is done basically to tell the girl how good of a heart you have and how motherly you can be, aka, you’re trying to be a girl.

     Makes sense?

     ————

     Then rapport has a value elsewhere, just not in courtship.

     And there’s an exception for this: girls who get aroused by doing rapport exclusively. Aka girls who talk a lot, or shy girls who are repressed and need a space to explode and come out. You’ll identify them easily because as soon as any instance of rapport, even if casual happens, they can’t stop talking, and when you touch on certain subjects they lit up or get all IOI. In these cases, well, talk more, do more rapport before breaking it, or, rapport till they get in that state, then break it so you keep escalating, then do rapport again.

     Reply
     • YOHAMI says:

       05/04/2018 at 6:02 am

       More laser focus:

       Breaking rapport is intrinsically non-needy, so it’s only compatible with top guy: highly attractive

       Rapport can go both ways: can be done by a needy person, and can be done by a non-needy person, so it can be either attractive or unattractive, depending on the context.

       Chasing Rapport (investing more than she does with the hopes she invests back): Can only be done by needy guy so it’s intrinsically unattractive. Insisting on having a conversation about food or work or family or hobbies when she’s there to be fucked, or, ‘talking’ when you could be ‘doing’, or ‘talking when you could be escalating’ or ‘talking about stuff when you could be doing roleplaying, judging, teasing, making her laugh, leading’ falls in this category.

       ——————-

       Looking at the above, that’s why it’s ok to initiate rapport and then break it. You get the good things from rapport, then flip it to high value by breaking it.

       And breaking rapport is not just ‘stop talking’.

       Breaking rapport is using rapport as a bridge between your ping and your call to action. Or changing subjects. Or interrupting a conversation that is turning boring with something that is more interesting. Or inserting judgement in your rapport. Or making a joke. Or moving her around. etc.

       “when are you free? I’ll take you out”

       Is an example of Rapport -> Breaking Rapport so it’s highly attractive

       Reply
       • arr123 says:

         05/08/2018 at 7:50 am

         Could you compare and contrast

         “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

         vs

         “I’ll take you out – when are you free?”

         The second one feels so much more natural to me since I am motivation my question by previos desire/intention. Asking “when are you free?” first feels off.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/08/2018 at 4:52 pm

           Strangely for me it is the opposite. In my mind, I am always thinking drinks instead of ‘out’ but yohami already addressed this.

           But my feel is the following:

           “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

           This is question first for her to give information and workout her schedule herself. The ‘I’ll take you out’ is the why the guy is asking. If girl not free, then guy wont take her out.

           this contrasts with
           “I’ll take you out – when are you free?”

           Which is “as guy I am going todo something for you and I want to know when I can do it for you”.

           I am betting that yohami may say that the first is giving girl space to come to guy whereas the second is guy going to girl (ie. guy trying to close space).

           Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           05/08/2018 at 5:15 pm

           Questions are rapport seeking

           Calls to action are leadership

           If you do this:

           “I’ll take you out, when are you free?”

           The intention is stated, but you end on a high pitch which passes the ball to her as if you are doing conversation. The power is fully passed to her.

           If you do this instead

           “When are you free? I’ll take you out”

           You ask the question, which is rapport, but then the call to action breaks the rapport. So the question is not the core of the line, but the call to action is

           Or, the first one is beta and the second one is alpha.

           We’re talking inches, but at the same time the difference is huge. Why?

           ————————————————–

           Your job is to find the sweet spots, or the arousal spots, or the opportunities, and take action on them.

           So let’s replace the lines with the frames of each

           [ What are the opportunities?] [I will invest my money]

           This frame above has your choice already made, or, you’re going laser focus to take action as soon as you see the opportunity. Or, the question is a brief ping to the external world and as soon as the world give you the cue, you’re ready to act.

           Vs.

           [I will invest my money] [What are the opportunities?]

           Do you see it?

           This frame has the action set under a conditional and the opportunities are unknown. So this is more ‘chill’ but also may likely result in not investing any money and studying more opportunities since it goes out to the world in search of something but who knows what it will find.

           ————————-

           Or

           [Where are the good looking girls?] [I will have sex tonight]

           This IS HAPPENING.

           Compare

           [I will have sex tonight] [Where are the good looking girls?]

           Do you see how this question, at the end, opens a dimension for a negative outcome?

           I do. If I do, girls see this x100.

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/08/2018 at 7:57 pm

             I can understand the aspect of possible negative outcome although my feeling is that the words people use subtly would give away their “frame / perspective / mental state”.

             If we swap out sex for something something such as food and we rewrite everything, it reads like this:

             “What does the menu have? I want to eat”
             vs
             “I want to eat – what does the menu have?”

             The first line is saying the person has a direction (to eat) but is not committed to this “direction” (if menu good, i satisfy hunger else not).

             The second line is saying the opposite that they are committed to this direction (to eat) and now checking what is available (I hungry, hope menu doesnt dissappoint).

             Obviously in real world, a person can just not order anything to eat but it feels to me that there is a difference between the two (question + rationale vs statement + question). This feels like something todo with NLP.

             It seems subtle but in the context of sex (or getting girl out), the second looks “needy” whereas the first is “non-needy”. This would likely have some use in trying to work out where other guys + girls are when in direct or group discussion or even debugging / analyzing ones own verbals and texts.

             Any counter thoughts?

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 8:19 pm

               Yep.

               Note thought that the replacement you used, “I want to eat” is not a command, call to action etc. It’s closer to what Nash has been using which is “I want to see you” as opposed to the call to action “I will take you out”

               Also on your specific situation the real message being conveyed is “what’s the menu”. You don’t even need to state you want to eat. The purpose of the communication there is the gathering of information. You can just go as:

               “What do you have to eat?”

               And, making questions / going for rapport is valid, useful and sometimes proper even in courtship.

               It just falls on the ‘less attractive’ side of the spectrum. So why do it, when you can do the attractive form instead.

             • arr123 says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:24 pm

               “What does the menu have? I want to eat”
               vs
               “I want to eat – what does the menu have?”

               When I come into a new, unkown/unrecommended place, I usually start with “show me the menu” even before taking a seat and walk out if I don’t see what I like. So it’s “Can I see the menu? I’m hungry”

               When I come into the place I’ve been to before, it’s “I’m hungry. [The usual. And] hurry up!”

               I can see how yohami’s question is a necessary ping before the call to action, but I wouldn’t even call the action if such a ping was needed and the lead wasn’t already warm. His approach is more of shock-and-awe, IMHO.

             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:58 pm

               “shock-and-awe”

               It’s “ping her desire, then take her”

             • Lucretius says:

               05/08/2018 at 10:13 pm

               out of reply buttons …

               The point of using “i want to eat” was about the sentence structure and the subtleties that it entails between the two. It is the slips of words that show whats happening in the mind. There would be multiple ways in saying the same thing and when thinking about food, I doubt people are going to pass judgement on you if you say one or the other because it is just food.

               But switch it back to sex, and judgement will be passed because girls have the filtering mechanism.

               @yohami
               Saying the same thing using less words is always better but I kept to the same words but different order to illustrate a concept as I saw it. I would say that the “I’ll take you out” part of the sentence is not ‘breaking rapport’ unless there was some ongoing larger discussion thread and the guy cuts it by saying “When are you free? I’ll take you out”.

               If called a potaato or potatoo, doesnt matter much but the concept I understand.

             • arr123 says:

               05/08/2018 at 10:19 pm

               “It just falls on the ‘less attractive’ side of the spectrum. So why do it, when you can do the attractive form instead.”

               Because this is not a one-dimensional [attraction] dance, as you are trying to present at the moment.

           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:35 pm

             COMPARE

             [We’ll have sex this week] [When are you free?]

             to

             [When are you free?] [We’ll have sex this week]

             Your mini-stack seems to be tailored to **create** attaction — not to be a more of a logistical bridge of the attraction already established.

             Am I missing something?

             Reply
           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:38 pm

             I do — now — see the [full] power transfer to the girl if the question comes in the end… Insteresting…

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:10 am

               Yep open your eyes to these ‘small’ things, they are not small – they come from a frame. Specially when the rest of your behavior comes from the same place

               Regardless of the specific content, this structure is a question to her and is asking her for permission:

               [We’ll have sex this week] [When are you free?]

               While this structure is only ‘formally’ asking for her availability then telling her what is going to happen regardless, or, the question is only there to prepare her for the call to action

               [When are you free?] [We’ll have sex this week]

               ——————————————————————

               The dance is:

               1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp

               2) Do the call to action

               Instead of:

               1) Call to action

               2) Ask her if she’s going to play

               ——————————————————————

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:28 am

               The dance is:

               1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp [this has been done way before the text exchange in question — the lead is already warm, moist, and waiting for me]

               2) Do the call to action [which is “I’ll take you out”]

               + 3) Work out logisitics/take into account her own life [“When are you free?”]

               Instead of:

               1) Irrelevant question [“When are you free”]

               2) Ask her if she’s going to play [“I’ll take you out”]

         • YOHAMI says:

           05/08/2018 at 5:25 pm

           Compare:

           [Where are your friends? Im going to make a party]

           To:

           [Im going to make a party, where are your friends?]

           Do you see it?

           ——————————————

           In the first one you visualize the friends, where are they? then the call to action cristalized them, makes an image of them in a party.

           In the second one you are making a party, but then, where are the friends? did the visualization put them in the party, or spread around and nowhere to be found?

           Then there’s even more, really.

           I WILL TAKE YOU OUT

           That’s what you’re communicating.

           What you don’t care about, at all, is “when are you free”. This is a moot point. The proper response from her should be “now” or “always”. The only reason why the question is even there is to generate the ping so she can prepare for the call to action.

           COMPARE

           Me: Have you been kissed before? (moves in for the kiss)

           To

           Me: (moves in for the kiss) Have you been kissed before?

           Do you see how the question even works as a neg?

           By placing the question after the call to action you break the call to action – you introduce a block for yourself.

           But the question has a valid placement before the call to action. You don’t even need a response – and you can break that mini rapport yourself with escalation. You get the good aspects of making a question without any of the bad outcomes that can be associated to them.

           Reply
           • arr123 says:

             05/08/2018 at 9:19 pm

             Compare:

             [Where are your friends? I having a party]

             To:

             [I’m having a party. Where are your friends?]

             It seems like you are talking about girls who you’ve met on-line only and haven’t had face-time yet. In my case, when I say “I’ll take you out”, I’ve already evaluated her and decided to invest. “When are you free?” is just working out the details/logistics.

             Your explanation makes sense, but it seems to apply to the context different from mine.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/08/2018 at 9:44 pm

               In the context that you are going to fuck the girl – putting the question and breaking that rapport with a call to action is stronger than stating a call to action and then blocking it with a question.

               If it’s not obvious try to experiment with both ways – not just the phrase but the whole framing.

               Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

               Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.

               It’s night and day. But do your own research.

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 3:39 am

               “In the context that you are going to fuck the girl”

               You are being blindfully obtuse to the actual context.

               “Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

               Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.”

               I’m not installing Tinder again… Thanks, but “NO, THANKS!”

             • arr123 says:

               05/09/2018 at 5:03 am

               “In the context that you are going to fuck the girl”

               In that narrow context, the best thing is to pay. Or go to SEA/EE and pay. Very efficient.

               But the real/actual context is very different. And it’s not even the “seed” context you are talking about – in the least due to condoms.

               You view the M-F dance unidimentionally in terms of dominance/hierarchies as the main driver of attraction/desire while completely ignoring such dimensions as passion, expression, and actualization.

               NAWATS — Not All Women Are Tinder Sluts!

               [https://bullshit.ist/tinder-is-a-modern-day-whorehouse-i-said-it-723094ca69fc]

               ;)

     • YOHAMI says:

       05/04/2018 at 8:43 am

       Google around to check how this breaking rapport vs chasing rapport work in your tone voice

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9b9NxMzDNQ

       The guy in this video explains it properly but has a hard time pulling it off – still is a good watch

       Reply
       • Lucretius says:

         05/04/2018 at 5:08 pm

         In reading your response, you have described my conversational behaviour prior to learning about game where I was just talking and interacting (asexually) with girls + guys, teasing girls when they said something silly, having my own opinion on things both that were in agreement + disagreement with the girls / guys opinion and just general chit chat (I was not looking to pickup the girls).

         The rapport topic came up because every “game source” says “rapport = unattractive; breaking rapport = attractive” without providing much context as to why. This re-affirms my thoughts on why “structured game” has caused me to go “backwards” with girls instead of forwards compared to how I was before in interactions when I was not “trying to get the girl”.

         It is though the advice of “breaking rapport” is to fix a “beta problem” of constantly sucking up to the girl (rapport seeking), but in those who do not have this problem, it creates a new problem (self inflicted) because now there is “this thing the guy should be doing” to get the girl and itself leads to a new problem of doing it because one thinks it will get results without understanding it.

         A similar item is the concept of “entitlement”. I keep hearing about this over and over just like rapport / break rapport. In all honesty, I didnt understand what this thing was because for me there are girls at say four levels: Invisible, average, nice, really good looking. My problem was how to generally talk to the really good looking girls and without a way in my mind, I just didnt talk to them (sexually or asexually). This is also likely self inflicted due to conditioning on growing up where guys are generally teased about girls (I am no exception here to being teased). Fortunately, this “entitlement” thing isnt an issue that has affected me in any profound way as I never thought of any girl “outside my league” or even in leagues at all but I was just shy around the really pretty girls. The remedy is just to talk to them the same way as I would talk to the other girls (teasing, pulling them into the conversation, telling stories, etc).

         On another comment you mentioned earlier about frame (Where are you coming from?) – when a guy is consciously doing rapport, breaking rapport, teasing, neg, etc (ie. really trying to project), it gives impression to me personally like one is at “bottom guy” but trying to project “top guy” by painting top guy attributes / behaviours ontop. It feels very differently for me personally when I am comfortable / confident in myself and my standing (not thinking game at all in the moment) that the above happens naturally not through conscious effort but as a reflex action or trigger to lead the discussion / interaction.

         The more I think about “game” the more I feel that my path forward is likely “via negativa” (concept via Nicholas Taleb) where it isnt about adding more to achieve more but about removing things that are getting in the way. In your terminology Yohami, it would be “remove bottom guy” piece by piece.

         To date, the things that I have found positive thus far on game subject matter:
         1. Chase is death (paraphrasing yohami) – This has been proven over and over in my experiences. Just ignoring the girl is working untold amounts better than any follow up.

         2. Use door, ignore /push away walls (yohami concept) – This was something new very specific from this blog and it has already proven its value where the girls issues (in all its forms) are not my problem and that I take the doors provided. My specific challenge here is to be able to correctly identify these in their various forms

         3. Value / Power – Being higher value than girls is a continuous focus and expressed in verbals + nonverbals and is independent from any girl. Power in the sense that giving up decision / action power to the girl will lead to eventual death of courtship / relationship. This is based on higher vs lower value as high value never gives up power to lower value. This applies all the way into sex where the girl is testing to try to get control. This happened last night to me during sex when I told the girl to give me blowjob. She was on her knees about to start but looked up at me and said “say please” (ie. wanting me to say please to her). I kept quiet and calmly (unreactively with a smirk) repeated my instruction but she kept trying to have her way to get me to say please (literally nearly 7min). Eventually her frame collapsed and she did as I asked.

         4. Leading – It really is the case where the guy must move things forward. Even today, I have at least 3 girls that I made eye contact with that stopped near me waiting for me to start a discussion (I waiting for metro). The man is the initiator and must lead the interaction forward.

         5. Escalation – This was the major issue why I wasnt moving forward with girls in the past. I would like the girl but would just talk and talk and talk and things didnt move anyways (predictably now in hindsight) because I thought that things would “just happen”. This is one of the good things I learnt from daygame material (ie. physical escalation at the interaction is progressing).

         The process of unlearning “daygame habits” continues through attrition.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/05/2018 at 9:20 am

           All in all, getting rid of bottom guy is a difficult task as it has become reflex but at the same time trying to be top guy with bullet time to process everything is going to take some effort. I feel that I am going to have to burn quite a few more leads like this to make this progress. The following is from last night:

           Was at another drinks event last night and the top guy vs bottom guy is showing again in the people at the event. On the one hand, I am surprised by how predictable the bottom guy behaviour is from these guys (“I am so and so, I am from [place name], who are you? where are you from? You so beautiful, the woman from Poland are the most beautiful.)

           All the while, the polish girl is being polite and nodding to her with social touching involved (For reference, your points mentioned before on social touching here I did apply well in various discussion groups).
           I was also speaking with this girl and she was showing interest in me although I felt like I had to move through the same discussion just as a starter as I was a bit blank (bad point on my side but part necessary to identify the bottom guy reflex in me to remove).

           Her: Where you from?
           Me : I am from [country name]

           Her: How long you been here?
           Me : I have been here X amount of years

           Her: blah blah
           Me : blah blah. Lets move through the usual boring chit chat quickly (I detected the bottom guy in me there and was trying to steer away)

           At this point she was swarming with guys around her. A part of me wanted to talk to her alone to get to know her a bit (asexual for comfort) but every time a new guy came in, I had to hold off (ie. like being cockblocked). Something says that if I was to just keep speaking while every new guy came in, I would look bad (this could be deluding myself) so I kept playing on the “edges” of the interactions as each guy burned himself out (I was effectively trying to not be “bottom guy” like the other guys were doing there and then – I was fighting my bottom guy reflex). I could detect that I was starting to “hang around” so kept switching to another girl (hungarian) and then coming back, but the sense of hanging around was a bit strong from my self from what I felt – me wanting to talk to her but constantly being blocked. This is a very negative feeling for me to have as it projects negative energy outwards and I am sure girls 100% feel this (a development point – likely frame issue). This is still the bottom guy in me moving around like I am on a mission to pickup girls rather than just interacting with them. It has been progressively diminishing at every drinks event and expect that over more events it should reach zero and be completely gone. Even so with this girl, I could feel that I was ahead of the other guys by how she was interacting with me. I tried to insert in a tease here and there and also did a roleplay if me and her were on holiday to [some country name] how long would it take to adjust (she didnt flintch at me saying her and me). She didnt like the country were we are at (weather, people, etc).

           Through the constant interruptions, the time was getting late and I wanted to leave (nothing much happening and crowd thinning out). I was leaned against the bar with her in front of me and I was pressed for a move:

           Me : There are a lot of flies around here (referring to bottoms guys). Lets get a drink somewhere else
           Her: I think I am going to go home (her drunk friend was also leaving and gave me a hug but they were not together)

           She was took out her phone out and started looking at the metro lines. As I was looking to see what she was doing as she was right in front of me (human reflex of curiosity), she then covered her phone and said “you not seeing where I live”. I didnt say anything at this point and rather dismissed it looking away (in my mind I was saying it nothing of my business – knowing where she lives is irrelevant). I just switched off for a moment which caused a pause to appear (felt like 5-10sec). She then said:

           Her: You going somewhere else?
           Me : Yes, I will go

           Another pause (5-10 sec)

           Her: How long you been in here? (referring to country)
           Me : 7 years

           Another pause (5 sec)

           Her: You come here often?
           Me : *saying so so with hand*. Depends if the venue is good, then I come else not.

           The context on the above from my side was clear (drinks -> sex) but she was starting a conversation thread and it felt like if I engaged here, I was moving away from my “lets get a drink”. The part I think I could of improved was on the first response where I could of said “yes, I will go to bar XYZ near here” or “you are going home but I am going somewhere else” but the above is the way it went (I already mentioned in earlier discussion that I lived 10min away). My mind is slowly starting to add “[to have sex]” into every statement but requires more interactions. Speaking on which, I could of changed the last line to “Depends on who is attenting …”.

           Another pause (10 sec).

           Then another guy jumped in again and started to talk to her (same type of bottom guy talk). I just kept leaning at the bar (back to bar while facing her) without saying anything, periodically talking my phone out and looking at it just to occupy the pause (waiting on the girl and me NOT chasing). After about 5 min of this, I got the number of the hungarian girl that was to my left (this was the other girl I was alternating with – I just said that I am leaving soon but wanted to know if she wanted to get a drink another time. She said yes. This was in front of the polish girl. I think I was inadvertently playing one against the other). Sensing that the polish girl of the above interaction was not going to move, I went to get my jacket and said my goodbyes to the guy that was talking to the polish girl (shook his hand – I didnt know who he was) and then was to say goodbye to polish girl. She extended her hand (a yohami wall from her) but I just leaned forward and gave her 3x european kisses on the cheek (me ignoring her yohami wall) – this was all reflex. I think she said “Oh ok” or something of the sort as I moved to kiss her cheeks. For what can only be “bottom guy” reflex, I said “it was your choice” (stupid on my part) as I was moving away from her (I didnt look at her when saying it on way out of the bar). Dont know if this last comment may have affected the hungarian girl at the same time (will find out about hungarian girl status later)

           This last part from where I asked her for drinks in retrospect was me really stating my intention and just leaving it there. On the initial rejection by her saying that she is going home, it came to mind very specifically to not push against this and via reflex I just paused and did nothing. It was really unexpected that she was again starting the discussion and the above is how it went (a new reference experience for me). Not sure if I played the above right or not but am positively surprised that she re-initiated (feels good). It feels like I needed to provide “comfort” by just talking with her more (which I didnt do well earlier and this was likely showing here) before she would of decided to come along.

           For context on the hungarian girl, a bottom guy was talking her ear off (on her right) while I got her number (on her left) – I had been briefly speaking with her but was not stellar performance either. I wasnt thinking of reward / punishment in the moment, but after she put it in, she said she was not sure if it was the right number or not (good sign). I opened whatsapp and showed her the profile picture and she confirmed it correct. I then just sent my name as the message (no smilie or anything else). Would this count as a reward? My thinking for sending my name was that she would have my phone number and am I going to leave it for 1-2 days to see if she messages me first else I ping with “Hey ;)”

           Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/05/2018 at 9:29 am

             The freaking irony of everything (or just the magic of the yohami NO CHASE). I just got a message from the above polish girl via online platform just now:

             Her: Good morning the [my nationality] ;) It was nice to meet you yesterday. Did you go at the end to another place to continue the party? Regards, [Girl Name]

             My nationality is usually a talking point as I dont look like my nationality stereotype. My planned reply later today will be (unless Yohami can offer a more concrete suggestion):

             Me : Good morning to you too. Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)

             The ‘good morning’ is my reward. Dont have a teasing nickname for her as of yet. The ‘girly imagination’ is to get her hamster working, the smilie face would be the undertones. After the above, I am not sure if I need to stack with something or wait as I have a question mark there. My objective is to get a few lines of discussion before calling to action.

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:24 am

               ” Good morning to you too. Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

               That’s a bottom guy text still :-)

               Why?

               “Good morning” you’re parroting back her same line back to her: you’re a follower, you’re playing into her frame

               “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

               You’re asking a question.

               The ‘girly’ is almost a nickname flirt but it doesn’t convey it. You close with an emoticon, aka flirting, but flirting to what exactly: you’re inviting her to put the work to think about what you did.

               Aight let’s fix it. This would be my reply

               ———————————————————————–

               Me: Hey [Nickname] ;-)
               Me: Yeah, I went to [another party] and had a lot of fun
               Me: You should have come

               —

               Line 1) is her ping / reward / flirt

               Line 2) is doubling down on her jealousy. What she actually wants to know is if you banged the other girl. Which you also have to double down on without confirming. Welcome to female sexual intercompetition

               Line 3) is passing judgement and making her feel she missed out. Note there’s not an emoticon or anything to soften this blow.

               So recap

               She is interested enough on you to initiate conversation. She wants to know if she made the right decision by not going with you last night, and if you fucked that other girl instead.

               If you want to fuck her, then the answer is YES, she made the wrong decision by not going out with you and YES, you banged fifteen other chicks and it was FANTASTIC and she’s out of the loop now.

               So my 3 lines go like this

               First flirt back and give her a nickname that is fitting and make her feel special

               Then state my independence of outcome from her and how things were fantastic

               Then if it was not clear enough I pass judgement down. So this is a mini carousel for her, and she’ll feel the spike of desire and jealousy, and a little awkwardness. Her response will be in the lines of:

               —

               Her: hahah I had to take care of my friend blah blah blah

               Her: blah bah (fake rapport)

               Her: Tell me what happened with the other girl.

               That last like is the actual question. There are a thousand ways she can ask this, she’ll ask her by name, or make a casual remark about you being alone, or whatever. When it comes up, you say she’s ‘fantastic’ then

               Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out

               —————–

               Do you see it?

8. Lucretius says:

   05/05/2018 at 11:51 am

   For this part “Good morning to you too.” I was trying to say hello back and reward her for starting the conversation but the part wrong was that I was repeating her words. If I understand, the correct response to her opening would always be something along the lines of:

   Me: hi hi [nickname] ;)
   Me: hey [nickname] ;)
   Me: morning [nickname] ;)

   But basically, the idea is to say ‘hello’ back to her but without using the same words as her.

   The nickname I understand the concept from another post you made and still need some practice. This girl I actually saw 3-4 weeks back at another event (skylounge at a 5 star hotel) and the key thing I noticed about her was that she was wearing all red (top + skirt). I didnt interact with her at this event but at this event, her red dress was the callback. There was blah blah about previous drinks and then

   Me : … and you were the girl in the red dress.
   Her: yes I was *smile*

   Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
   Her: Yes I was

   My initial thought that is coming to mind on the nickname here is to call her “girl in the red dress” but this was already in the past and not of last night so it seems kind of odd. Also talking about what she is wearing doesnt feel like I am going on the thread that you have weaving with your previous responses yohami. This particular girl likes to dress up with attention to clothing, jewelry, accessories and also hair. She likes to show that she is “upper class” / refined which was re-inforced by her purse. There is no specific personality trait that I can think of to get to a nickname. Any suggestions on this? Perhaps ‘hey glamour girl ;)’ but not sure on this (if you google glamour girl, you get a sense of what she looks like).

   For contrast, there was this other girl I was speaking to for a few events now and this girl likes to ‘spin bullshit on the fly’ by telling the other guys that her friend is a ‘dolphin trainer’ and they currently focusing on training seals (story changes) – all to get a reaction from guys. It is all nonsense that this girl is saying so here it could be ‘hey troublemaker ;)’ or ‘hey story teller ;)’

   For the next line I said “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”, I was doing as you thought I was doing. I wanted her to put in effort and imagine that I was with other girls. The emoticon was the wink for her to get it but if I term the ‘wink / smilie’ as flirty, then this doesnt make sense as I would be trying to make her jealous while flirting. Also her putting in effort doesnt feel right after your explanation.Your 2nd line of “Yeah, I went to [another party] and had a lot of fun” is much cleaner as it is just a statement.

   The nickname is the only part I am struggling with at the moment – will respond to her in about 2 hours to create longer vaccuum (for all she knows I just woke up). Will post her reply for everyone to see interaction and also learn on this aspect.

   Reply
9. Flat Lander says:

   05/05/2018 at 12:54 pm

   Simply “posh girl”.

   Reply
   • YOHAMI says:

     05/05/2018 at 6:35 pm

     “Hey posh ;-)” works

     Lucretius

     “Good morning to you too.”

     The issue here is, specifically, parroting the same line to her. You’re mirroring. Instead of mirroring you have to lead. What is mirroring? see here

     Her: Good morning handsome
     Me: Good morning pretty girl
     Her: How are you doing?
     Me: Im doing fine and how are you doing?
     Her: In fine as well. What did you do last night?
     Me: I went home, and you?

     Etc. Im overdoing it to illustrate the point. Don’t mirror her. When you do so, the energy stagnates and you force her to take the lead as you’re only doing ping pong and kicking around the bush. So, again, compare

     —————————

     Her: Good morning gringo, what did you do last night?
     Me: Hey posh ;-)
     Me: I went to Las Vegas and banged 17 strippers
     Me: But I was thinking of you the whole time
     Me: I swear <3

     —————————

     This is interesting:

     "Me : … and you were the girl in the red dress.
     Her: yes I was *smile*
     Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
     Her: Yes I was"

     First, congrats in the cold reading. The "making a statement" is a powerful reading. So what was the statement about? here is where you have to go a step ahead. If the answer is that she's looking for a husband, bring that to the surface and tease her with it. If the statement is that she's a whore, tease her for it. If what she wants to do is get all the attention of all the men/flies, call her 'honey'. So go ahead with your cold reading, and bring it to the surface, tease her.

     That as opposed to what you specifically did there, aka, asking questions that can be answered with Yes / No.

     The exception is when you are going to use her "yes" as a compliance to escalate somewhere. Example.

     Me : You were wearing the red dress to make a statement
     Her: Yes I was
     Me: And the statement is of course – that you don't like attention ;-)

     Or

     Me: I like your statements, they look good on you ;-)

     Or

     Me: I also have a statement, guess what it is ;-)

     Or

     Me: The things girl do to find a husband. Are you really sure you're going to find him here tonight?

     Or

     Me: Too bad red is not my color

     Etc.

     You can safely do questions that are going to be answered with a 'yes', and take that mini compliance somewhere now that you have 'permission' and she's in 'yes' mode. Makes sense?

     Otherwise what you're doing is just rapport, and you know what's the deal with rapport.

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       05/05/2018 at 7:54 pm

       Overdoing it on the illustration was good as it shows me the problem with following this approach. Instinctively I can sense that it is bad when the mirroring is that long but was thinking that just saying ‘good morning’ back would of been ok but it isnt. I have noted this.

       On the red dress comment, she really did stand out from the crowd and was looking very different from all the other girls. I would think definitely looking for high-end boyfriend / husband. Seeing multiple examples is allowing me to see the type of thread I need to weave.

       On the Polish girl her response was:
       “I was too tired, especially, that I came from [country]. I landed about [later afternoon]. and after that I came to the drinks. Maybe next time. BTW thanks for “posh girl” ;)”

       Credit goes to Flat Lander for posh girl :)
       I wasnt sure if she would get the reference but it hit the mark.

       Looking at her response, she is explaining herself as predicted by yohami. Instinct says not to say anything here as it would be chasing because of the ‘maybe next time’. I also dont see anything to reward as she is just giving excuses unless something is build on the ‘maybe next time’ or the ‘BTW thanks for posh girl’.

       On separate girl (not related to above), I was within a group which then morphed into 2 girls and 4 guys (me included). I was leading the conversation in the group and had established myself ahead of the other guys and the two girls likes me but I likes one over the other. The one I liked was very shy and wasnt saying much in the conversation so my focus moved to other people in the group (following Yohami GAME THE GROUP). The discussion was ongoing but I could sense something off from the guys – like excessive male attention from other guys to the girls. This triggered my instinct to not be associated with them and I excused myself (really to the girls) and moved to another group leaving the girls to the guys (ie. not my problem). Later I tried to find the girl I liked in the group but couldnt find her.

       Following the previous posts, I did find her via online platform under ‘people going’ and sent single message on 3 lines (wanted to try yohami breakdown).

       Me : Hey shy girl ;)
       Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
       Me : You should of stayed a bit longer
       Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!

       The )) is hers which I interpret as smilies. My understanding was:

       Line 1: The ‘shy girl’ was really thinking on the nickname and she was very shy and I had nothing else to go on.
       Line 2: This is based on the energy of the group she was in (spiralling downwards) and also that I went else where to find something better. As I liked her, I was looking to find her and bring her into better and more fun group (had more girls). The time between leaving group and coming back was 1.5 hours so no wonder she may have decided to leave the bar.
       Line 3: This was to be congruent with line 2 and also to push the spike that she missed out on more fun group because she left.

       In general, I am again surprised that she responded as I wasnt waiting for anything back given the low level of interaction I had with her. The above message response feels different from the polish girl response and that she wants me to respond back.
       Responding to the ‘way you make a compliment’ and explaining it (…well you were shy…) feels like a bottom guy move but she has the smilies which could just be me noticing her. Responding to the ‘should of been faster yesterday eve!’ may be the better bet but how to respond to this. I can see she used the exclamation mark for emphasis. If I am outcome independent then I would say something about the group nearby being more interesting.

       Any prospective guidance on this? Silence doesnt seem right here as it would be punishment where I need to reward for her responding to me.

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         05/05/2018 at 8:29 pm

         “I was too tired, especially, that I came from [country]. I landed about [later afternoon]. and after that I came to the drinks. Maybe next time. BTW thanks for “posh girl” ;)”

         Interesting.

         “I also dont see anything to reward”

         On the contrary – you passed down judgement, and she started justifying herself, plus ‘maybe next time’ to your passing judgement that she should have come, then she thanks you, and winks.

         There’s PLENTY to reward here. Send this immediately, as soon as you can

         Me: you’re welcome ;-)

         ————————————

         In short, she pinged you on her own, then you switched frame to top guy, and she switched frame to bottom girl. She’s offering you pussy. But first you have to punctuate what just happened and REWARD her behavior, or it’s gone.

         After you say “you’re welcome” it’s your turn to take the lead.

         What you have to do now is initiate a new round of rapport, very brief, and use it to ramp it, and breaking rapport with a call to action. Example:

         Her: blah blah blah (qualify myself) blah blah thanks for the posh girl ;)
         Me: You’re welcome ;-)

         Me: So how are you liking [country], found anything worth moving here?\
         Her: oh blah blah I like this I don’t like that
         Me: Well [pass down judgement in a harsh or witty way]
         Her: hahahah
         Me: You’re fun (again, reward the little cycle that just happened)

         Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out

         ————————————-

         There are a million different ways to do the above, and it’s not a model but a principle

         When you went top-guy and she went bottom girl that’s the place for you to reward.

         Then a new landscape opens

         You use that new space to ‘swing your dick’. In my example above I did an open ended value question for her to expose herself. But my end goal is to capitalize there and say something that will make her ‘hahaha’. Also note that my value question is not innocent, and has the innuendo that I AM the thing that she might have found. After she gives me her reply, and I do my next display of dominance and she goes ‘ahaha’ I reward that, and now we’re in sex territory and ask her out.

         All in 3-4 lines

         ————————————————————————————–

         To the other girl, who is really into you

         “Me : Hey shy girl ;)
         Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
         Me : You should of stayed a bit longer
         Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!”

         First – don’t send the texts like that. The rule is that when you flirt or do a call to action, stop and wait. The things that need her response are pausing points. Your initial ping is a call to action and a flirt, it demands ‘hey girl talk to me’, so after you do it, wait. So:

         Me: Hey shy girl ;-)

         [WAIT]

         Her: blah blah

         Me : Was having fun with other group and was looking for you to join but you were gone.
         Me : You should of stayed a bit longer

         * * *

         Otherwise, see what happened? her response is she addressing the flirt you did, but ignoring what you stacked afterwards. So you’re creating a wall for yourself for moving ahead of the pace.

         You are leading the pace. That means you set the direction and WAIT for her to follow, before you keep escalation. Don’t make all the moves at once. Make a move, and wait. When she follows your lead, reward. Like I decribed above with posh girl.

         Anyway, she really wants to be banged:

         “Her: Hey, shy girl is the way you make a compliment?)) You should have been faster yesterday eve!”

         She’s telling you you could have fucked her yesterday if you had been faster. She’s not shy: you’re slow.

         Again.

         She’s not shy, you’re slow.

         She was open for you and you didn’t move.

         And she’s still open for you.

         ACT.

         Both girls want you to fuck them. The difference is that this girl is less attractive right? and posh girl has a lower threshold of tolerance for bullshit. But both are open right now.

         “Responding to the ‘way you make a compliment’ and explaining it (…well you were shy…) feels like a bottom guy move but she has the smilies which could just be me noticing her. ”

         Yes, you can’t respond to “the way you make a compliment” that’s a wall, or, that’s her passing judgement down on you and if you go there you’re bottom. Also the second line “you should have been faster” is again pushing down, but it’s also an opening: she was YES if you had been faster, or so she says. SO here’s what I’d reply

         Me: well if you like it fast… ;-)
         Me: I thought we had more time

         Note how I bypassed the shit, turned her ‘fast’ into sexual innuendo, and then brought it down to earth to an ‘intimate’ roleplay where she and I have ‘time’ like we’re in a relationship. After these two lines, because that’s a heavy flirt, WAIT, she’l predictably come with a

         Her: hahaha
         Her: blah blah

         Then the same shit as in the other case – mini rapport, break rapport, ask her out.

         As close as a model it is, without being one.

         Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/09/2018 at 6:40 pm

           There has been no response and given it has been a few days, likely nothing going to come through … could be for 1000s of reasons but doesnt matter if she doesnt come back.

           The more I replay the messages in my head, the more I think that the direct “sexual response” may have been a bit too strong. I have had experience before were making direct sexual inuendo up front has caused the girl to go silent but it could of been for multiple reasons.

           Looking at the responses I gave, I am wondering if the wording could of been adjusted to:
           Me : hahahaha … well if you like it fast ;)
           Me : (i thought we had more time …)

           I think the above is a bit “softer” on the sexual inuendo with the hahahaha at the beginning making it seem more playful while still having all the components. Moving the … to the 2nd line and adding brackets around the 2nd line splits the threads. The above seems more natural to continuing a playful flirty conversation.

           Any thoughts on this?

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             05/09/2018 at 6:43 pm

             It wasn’t too strong, it was just a tease and she was blunt about you being too slow in approaching her.

             She’s probably busy fucking one of the guys who did talk to her that night

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:53 pm

               She is pretty but I dont think it would of been any of the guys at the bar. It looked like she was surrounded by a “group of chihuahua trying to hump her leg”.

               She could of left to another bar and something happened then but doesnt matter at this point.

           • YOHAMI says:

             05/09/2018 at 6:44 pm

             But you softening of the lines is fine – would be fine for a girl who’s the bubbly kind

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/09/2018 at 6:59 pm

               I get the “feel” for how my responses should be like from your suggested responses but the component missing here is likely “calibration” where you are just reading what I write whereas I have had a few minutes in person interaction.

               In social setting, this girl didnt speak much and really did come across as shy which is why I have it in my mind that softening would of perhaps continued the message exchange. Ofcourse, shy socially does not mean shy sexually.

               Either way, doesnt matter at this point but was good reference experience.

   • YOHAMI says:

     05/05/2018 at 6:49 pm

     “Do you want to use your girly imagination? ;)”

     The frame is broken here, but can be fixed. First let’s remove the girly, that’s out of context. If you are trying to communicate that you fucked someone else, adding ‘girly’ muddies the waters, so

     ——

     Me: Do you want to use your imagination? ;-)

     That’s better. The next issue is that it’s a question. Here and usually it’s more productive to tell her to do things, as opposed to ask her to do things.

     ——

     Me: Use your imagination ;-)

     Now this is a command and has enough innuendo. The line is actually good now.

     ——

     Me: Use your imagination ;-)
     Me: You should have come

     And like that it has a command, innuendo, a flirt, and passing down judgement: golden.

     Then she’ll reply blah blah blah or whatever aroused ‘hahaha’ then you ask her out

     Reply
     • Lucretius says:

       05/05/2018 at 9:00 pm

       Both girls are equally pretty.

       On the polish, I misread your comment and sent (two separate message):

       Me : Your welcome ;)
       Me : So tell me about [country from earlier message], anything worth moving there for?

       Only afterwards, did I understand the innuendo. On separate note, she already said why she doesnt like [country where we are in] during the drinks so it didnt trigger to me to think of using [country where we are in] again. Anyways, she just responded with (in less than 10min):

       Her: I wont be original and I will tell you exactly the same, as so far, to everyone: friendly and open people, good food, amazing weather, fashionable clothes and shoes. The only problem would be to find a good job. But I think, it is smiliar to [Other country name where I am from]?

       If I respond with a ‘yes, it is similar to [country where I am from]’ then I am building rapport here which could move me backwards. Talking about her finding ‘a good job’ is not my problem therefore ignore this. If I am going to be ‘judgemental’ then it would have to be on the ‘fashionable clothes and shoes’ part of her response to get the ‘hahahaha’. I expect I would need to say something like:

       Me : Fashionable clothes and shoes !! … this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.

       ————

       For other girl, I will send:

       Me: well if you like it fast… ;)
       Me: I thought we had more time

       Reply
       • YOHAMI says:

         05/05/2018 at 9:35 pm

         Hah man. Yeah missed the innuendo. You went for actual rapport and she gave you boring rapport back. But she’s still following your lead.

         “Anyways, she just responded with (in less than 10min)”

         She’s in full compliance.

         I don’t understand if she moved to the country you’re in now, or is moving somewhere else? anyway. From her response, tease her:

         Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing
         Me: That or get a rich hubby
         Me: I would propose but I don’t believe in marriage

         She will ‘hahah’ to this.

         And, do you see the thread. I took the information she gave me, she likes clothing plus she dresses to stand out, her fear is not getting a job etc. That’s the starting point and looks like rapport, but has a little inch of tease / neg on it.

         The second line roleplays that she’s a gold digger

         The third line implies that you like her, then a bolder statement that separates you from beta chode, you could propose but you don’t believe in marriage, so you’re rejecting her, sort of.

         That’s the rollercoaster.

         Because her response was boring I opted to ‘create my own opportunity’ here. Try.

         Reply
         • YOHAMI says:

           05/05/2018 at 9:54 pm

           You can wink at the first line, makes the tease more explicit

           Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing ;-)

           That line works on it’s own so you could even wait for her to react to that tease before doing the next two lines

           So

           Me: Well you’re going to need a REALLY good job to afford all that clothing ;-)

           Her: haha (blah blah)

           Me: Yeah I can tell – either a ceo of a bank or you’re going to need a rich husband

           Her: haha blah blah

           Me: I would propose but I don’t believe in marriage

           Her: haha blah blah

           Me: Anyway, when are you free? l’ll take you out

           Reply
         • Lucretius says:

           05/05/2018 at 10:01 pm

           Your post and my message crossed time – didnt know if you would provide guidance today and the following was sent (two messages):

           Me : Fashionable clothes and shoes !! … this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.
           Me : Also you going to need REALLY good job to afford luxury style.
           Either that or rich husband – I would propose but I dont believe in marriage.

           The time between messages was 6min – no response yet.

           The above is starting to clutter things but still seem ‘decent’. My rationale / understanding of the lines:
           “Fashionable clothes and shoes !!” – Here I am being judgemental and also a bit ‘harser’ by using exclamation marks.
           “this is so typical criteria for important life decisions for women. And for you I should of just guessed this.” – Here I am somewhat making a stereotype of her but also to show that I am not taking her seriously. Also focusing on her external expression using her clothes which certainly has something there.
           “Also you going to need REALLY good job to afford luxury style.
           Either that or rich husband – I would propose but I dont believe in marriage.
           ” – these are your lines and they still work in the same thread.

           On looking for a rich husband, there is likely some truth behind this based on how she is dressed (already mentioned) and also with the type of guys she was interacting with (guys in proper suits).

           She just responded with:
           “Fashionable clothes and shoes are apart of conditions to change a country ;) And yes, I like to get dressed well. I am not [Country we in] type of woman…”

           The clutter of too many words had her focus on something specific which caused her to ignore the stack in her response (likely as the less part to interact with). I didnt get a ‘hahahaha’ but there is a smilie which I see this as acknowledgement of the point. She is also agreeing with what I am saying – is not rapport here.

           This seems like she is checking if she has ‘ticked all the boxes’ and is now waiting for me to ask lead things forward. I would need to reward (your fun – no smilie) and ask her out (just as you expected).

           Me : Your fun
           Me : When are you free? Lets go for a drink

           Anything else before the above?

           There is about 45min more time before I need to close the chat with her for today.

           Reply
           • YOHAMI says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:08 pm

             Yeah – the double stack makes it a bit overgame

             That she didn’t address the most important part means that she set a WALL, so you can’t reward now

             No ‘hahah’ means you don’t call her ‘fun’. She hasn’t earned it. Time to break rapport and call to action

             —————

             Me: Anyway, Im going to bed soon
             Me: [ASK HER OUT]

             Reply
           • Lucretius says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:08 pm

             And now she responded on the stack:

             “No, thank you, I wouldnt accept your proposal. You can believe in anything, you want to ;) A credit card and a rich husband? I guess, this is your imagination of a relationship ;)”

             The response of “Your fun ;)” seems really appropriate now (with smilie).

             Reply
             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:11 pm

               Yep, now you can reward it. She’s playing along fine, Im sure she’s laughing over there

           • YOHAMI says:

             05/05/2018 at 10:10 pm

             Side note, this

             “Me : When are you free? Lets go for a drink”

             Is weaker than this

             “Me: When are you free? I’ll take you out”

             Take her out / hangout etc, better frame than going for a ‘drink’

             Drink means it’s friday or saturday most likely.

             Asking her to ‘take her out’ or ‘hang out’ or ‘go out’ etc is open ended and has the possibility of you meeting on an afternoon mid week and banging her

             Don’t pre-frame yourself when it’s not needed. All you want is to fuck her.

             Reply
             • Lucretius says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:27 pm

               This explanation makes sense. I always saw you say “When are you free? I’ll take you out” but never understood the frame aspect of ‘I’ll take you out’.

               On the messages, I sent:

               Me : Your fun ;)
               Me : When are you free? I take you out

               Now waiting.

               Just from the posts today, I am starting to get the idea a bit more on how this should work as it is a real world (and real-time) case based on what I would say and what you would say. Feels good that I am identifying some of the yohami walls and bottom guy stuff before you comment and you confirming them. This is allowing me to see the analysis as it moves and also to see the girl responses.

               I need to let everything sink in when I am sleeping tonight but also need to breakdown how the drinks would go (ie. some general principles). From reading some of your other posts, it sounds like drinks could be as short as 15min before moving to sex location whereas in my mind 45min-1h seems more normal but again my reference experiences are not “stream lined” (for lack of better words).

               Do you have a general model / set of principles for how drinks should go?

             • YOHAMI says:

               05/05/2018 at 10:34 pm

               Yeah, actually I talk about that all the time: that’s the “arouse” her part of the equation.

               You’re there, focus on what she likes, swing around, double down, cross her boundaries, give space, just like in the text really.

               It’s not going to be 15 min unless you know what you’re doing, so for now something more like Black Dragon would do

               Focus on having a short date with no chasing but plenty of vibe and banter

               If you see the interest escalate and kiss her. If she’s into the kissing escalate more physically. If she’s open to the physicality take her straight home and bang her (that’s what could happen in 15 min, but all the other stuff needs to be into place).

               So don’t think about it in time but in ‘arousal’. Focus on what she responds (sexually) to. All you’re doing in her is sexual stimulation, from the chit chat to the texting to taking her out etc, that’s all sex. That’s also why everything that is not sex (like mundane rapport) ruins things.

               So take her our, chill, banter, vibe, and if it’s good but not boiling point, ‘break rapport’ and end the date, and bang her next time.

               And if she’s at ‘boiling point’ consumate it on the same date.

               But don’t think about it as 15 min.

10. Lucretius says:

    05/05/2018 at 11:15 pm

    Never heard of black dragon but would rather stick to principles and learn from my mistakes just as I have been here. As mentioned before, structure game caused the problem. If I burn out with a particular girl, then that is the cost of progress.

    If I think back through the past 2 weeks or so from all the posts, the principle idea is really around positioning.
    – All top guy behaviours being moves around guy moving upwards and girl moving downwards
    – All bottom guy behaviours being moves around girl moving upwards and guy moving downwards

    It is like a game of relationship chess (or succinctly ‘courtship’). While the end goal is sex and the primary objective is for the guy to reach the highest possible position and the girl to be below him. The higher the gap between the stronger the girl -> guy attraction. The ‘moves’ are all around facilitating the above.

    The flirts / call to action / judgement / teases / DHV are the moves of the guy whereas the qualifying / vacuum for response / baits are the moves of the girl. The ‘ramps’ are ‘oil’ that allow the moves to be made smoothly.

    Does the above sound right?

    On the polish, no reply yet – she likely vacuum me at the moment so is just wait.
    On the ‘shy girl’, no response – she could be busy with something else
    On the hungarian, I have to send ‘Hey ;)’ tomorrow. I really got nothing on a nickname at this point.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 6:07 am

      Dont contact them again until they ping you back

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:34 am

        The value of ‘yohami NO CHASE’ is well ingrained – no fear of breaking this rule :)

        On the polish, the reward that was used was ‘Your fun ;)’ whereas my instinct was telling me to say ‘You seem like fun’ or ‘You seem like fun ;)’. The thinking for this second approach was ‘to tell her that she is on the right path but needs to move more in that direction’. Almost like dangling validation in front of her but reserving myself as I am not ‘convinced’ that she really is fun making her ‘work more for it’.

        The above is different from ‘Your fun’ or ‘Your fun ;)’ as this is giving straight validation to the girl. I can see why this is rewarding her because she starting playing along with the teasing idea.

        Is this always the approach to take (give direct validation instead of dangling validation)?

        Connected to the above question would be the general concept of reward vs punishment.

        I have seem many of your posts where the following is reward:
        – ;)
        – Awesome
        – Excellent
        – Your fun (the above post)

        The following I have seen as punishment:
        – No response
        – Ignoring the point / disinterest
        – Judging girl negatively (ie. weirdest girl I have ever met)

        Can the concept of reward be abstracted as being any response that continues the interaction in that direction via smilie, generalised ‘good verb’ or validation to the girl?

        Similarly, can the concept of punishment be abstracted as being any response (verbal or non-verbal) that judges her or her actions negatively or shows disapproval (eg. facial expression where one eye brow briefly raised and then look away) ; or any non-response resulting in non-interaction of that point?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/06/2018 at 11:48 am

          “You seem like fun ;-)” is a tease

          “You are fun ;-)” Is a reward

          Use teases when you’re going to make her want to work for your validation.

          Use rewards when she worked to get your validation, or is in compliance, or in good behavior.

          With teases you produce ‘chaos’, with rewards you solidify the kind of interaction you want to be having.

          For example if you approach a girl and you say “You seem like fun” she will try to be a fun person to play along with the frame you just gave her. If you approach her and tell her “you’re fun” out of nowhere, that doesn’t work.

          And on othe other hand if you are already playing and roleplaying and having fun with each other, telling her “you are fun” is an indication that you like her current behavior and you want her to keep doing it. That’s her reward to repeat what’s going on at the moment. You can’t tell her “you seem like fun”, or, you can, if you plan to escalate towards something even MORE fun, or you’re going to dare her to do something extravagant, but the phrase it’s not a reward.

          Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:14 am

      Polish girl responds:

      Her: Hehe you are fun. To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available.

      At this point, it is either over (something says likely not) or there is some ‘I dont want to be your boyfriend’ type of move I need to make or some other move.

      The part of ‘Sorry, I’m not available’ is her yohami wall. If I do something along the lines of ‘I dont want to be your boyfriend’, then I am interacting her wall or trying to solve this issue where I know that I am not suppose to.

      The part of ‘Hehe you are fun’, is something I have to focus on. As the ‘Your fun’ is already the reward, I dont think the response would be to on ‘yes, I am funny like that’ type of answer but perhaps a call back to her previous response which is shown again below for reference:

      Her: No, thank you, I wouldnt accept your proposal. You can believe in anything, you want to ;) A credit card and a rich husband? I guess, this is your imagination of a relationship ;)

      Perhaps something on ‘imagination of a relationship’?

      Some guidance here would really be appreciated.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 9:22 am

        I could also try something like”

        Me : All girls like fun ;)

        The above would be referring to her comment but inuendo included. Not sure if I need to expand on the above or if the wink smilie is enough for her to get it.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 9:24 am

        Perhaps rephrase to:

        Me : All the girls like fun ;)

        Addition of ‘the’ given more pointing to innuendo.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 9:47 am

          Revision (last one before further guidance). I propose to send following (one message with two lines)

          Me : All the girl like fun ;)
          Me : Good for you that you found someone …

          The addition of the 2nd line is to push away her wall and be somewhat judgemental about her (ie. good you found a man before it too late …). Considering she had so many guy fawning over her, the point is to push her away with this and may trigger her female insecurities (ie. echo my walkout from 2 nights ago). By doing this, I also avoid her frame and maintain my ‘frame position’

          What may be lacking here is the ‘stepping stone’ onto the next interaction round. I would have to stop here (following yohami NO CHASE). If she doesnt respond to the above, then it would be until next time in person (if that happens).

          Any other action following the above response would be CHASE.

          Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 12:05 pm

      Mmm not so:

      “– All top guy behaviours being moves around guy moving upwards and girl moving downwards
      – All bottom guy behaviours being moves around girl moving upwards and guy moving downwards”

      Top and bottom guy are STATIC positions. You don’t “go up while she goes down” unless you started off from a bottom guy frame and are trying to reverse it.

      But your job as a man is to climb and be top guy all the time. So when you interact with a new girl, you’re already on top, and she’s already below you. From there on, you screen her and see if she’s worth your time, so you “go down to her” a little, and make her “go up to your level” by association, all meanwhile she tries to knock you off to see if you’re really top guy and congruent.

      So she actually goes up (towards you) and you go down (towards her) when you’re operating on top guy frame.

      While in bottom, she moves up because you move even lower, so the movement separates you, instead of bringing you closer.

      This above is also why “trying to neg her to make her closer to your level” means you’re bottom guy. Guys to use negs to bring the girl down to their level are of course below the girl.

      When you’re in top guy frame you neg to punish bad behavior, then you reward to solidify good behavior.

      When you’re in bottom guy frame, you can’t really reward as everything positive is ‘free’ since the girl is never in a behavior that is conductive to sex with you, so all is wasted.

      ——————-

      Then the thing gets more complicated when the girl is DTF because she does see value in you, and you try to court her with bottom guy behavior. This results in a frame clash where the girl sees more value in you than you see in yourself, so you ‘don’t know what is going on’, all while you introduce more barriers and make them real just because bottom guy doesn’t know what an opportunity looks like so it keeps trying to force walls, because walls is all that’s real.

      Hope any of this makes sense! cheers man

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 1:16 pm

        Reading this explains why my proposed latest responses to polish where bottom guy as I was doing a ‘neg’ to her wall for ‘not being available to me’ whereas it is the other way around where she must come to me and if not, then that her issue so i leave it

        Reply
11. Flat Lander says:

    05/06/2018 at 9:45 am

    She just told you: “I am not available [to fuck you.]”

    At the moment there’s no door in that wall.

    Interacting with her further now is accepting to be her girlfriend.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:51 am

      Could be or not be. Not sure here.
      She liked me enough to open me yesterday of her own choice after me walking out.

      It is a little difficult to believe she just wanted a ‘chat’ considering how many guys were floating around her at the bar (10+).

      So again, could be or not be – just not sure here due to lack of experience.
      But the response here (if any) could be deciding factor

      Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 9:58 am

      Also to consider is that silence itself would also be acceptance of her last statement.

      I dont think I can use ‘silence’ as a punishment.

      If everything is really dead, doing anything here cannot make me ‘more dead’. So the more I think about this, a response is NEEDED but what response exactly is not sure.

      I have a bit of time to respond as this is not real-time whatsapp discussion and messages flow via email form platform (ie. delayed response is normal). The response must come sometime today.

      Reply
12. Flat Lander says:

    05/06/2018 at 10:31 am

    1. You already have her response.
    2. There is no such thing as a needed response from YOU in M-F dynamics.
    3. Responding in real time is beta af. You are a busy man, she’s one of the many girls vying for your attention.
    4. I wrote “at the moment”. Stop with the “dead,” “more dead” nonsense. She reacted well to you talking to the Hungarian chick, i.e. you pulling away from her. Pulling away now, putting her on ice is much better than talking to her and giving her attention when she told you she’s not available.
    5. “Good you have found someone”: why do you care?

    I wish you were in Warsaw, so i could talk some sense into you over a beer.

    Reply
13. YOHAMI says:

    05/06/2018 at 11:19 am

    Lucretius, this would be my response, and I’ll do a breakdown in a follow up comment

    ————————

    “Her: Hehe you are fun. To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available.”

    Me: Yeah Im the best ;-)
    Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/06/2018 at 11:38 am

      1) The girl initiated this convo because her vagina told her to. This is not a chat you initiated, she did

      2) You teased her and set the frame and she complied all the way

      3) Her line “hehe you are fun” she is parroting your same line back to you, aka, she is MIRRORING you.

      So when she tells you “sorry Im not available” that carries the same weight as when a girl tells you “we’re not having sex tonight”. It means nothing, this is something that can be just brushed aside.

      On the other hand, this line

      “Sorry, Im not available”

      Is a HARD wall. This is hard, raw rejection. That phrase should kill whatever intent you had of banging her. She’s giving that wall to bottom guy. Even if it’s a tease, it’s real. This is a filter that separates the men from the herd.

      The reason she’s giving you that wall is she DID see bottom guy in you. And she screens for higher value men, so there’s your wall.

      That thing you felt that made you want to write these responses is the bottom guy being squeezed:

      “Me : All the girl like fun ;)”

      Talking about a ‘third thing’ is beta rapport stuff, you’d have to either turn it about yourself, or turn it about her, or make it about the two of you. To make it about yourself I’d be “yeah Im such a comedian” (which is fine but not here since she’s also bringing you down, you can’t do self deprecating jokes. Could also say “Yeah girls love my humor” o “Yeah I’ve heard that before”, or “Glad that you like it” etc, in a normal context. But here she ramped into a wall.

      She used the little validation to make you crash into a wall harder.

      Make who crash? bottom guy.

      And here’s your bottom guy:

      “Me : Good for you that you found someone …”

      Yeah really. You feel GOOD that she found someone right? because you care. So much. So its SO GOOD that she’s rejecting you, she found THE ONE!

      Hah.

      Don’t believe anything a girl says. Even if she had found Justin Bieber she’d drop him to trade him for Leonardo Dicaprio or whatever. The only thing shat she’s saying here is she’s not available to fuck you.

      So you have to address THAT without investing more, without improving the offer, and without chasing.

      Flat Lander says “silence” and that would be a proper response for another context. My first gut reaction was to write back “Sure” and let it be, but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU. She came to ping you and ask you stuff, so she wants to fuck, and the wall is not fully real.

      ———————-

      So that’s the context. Read it like this

      Her: Hehe you are fun
      Me: Yeah Im the best ;-)

      Her: To take me out? Sorry, I’m not available
      Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

      ————————–

      This is an instance of passing the wall back to her. When she contacts you back, then she is ‘lonely’ and wants the dick. It may happen in an hour, or a week, or ten years, but the fact is this girl will feel ‘lonely’ at many points, and this little chat from you will itch.

      To reiterate

      Me: No problem, ping me when you’re lonely

      Is, as long as you’re concerned, your final, last message to her, ever. Unless she flips this herself, which she likely will.

      And “when you’re lonely” has an inch of put down. See:

      Im the best – you’re lonely.

      Focus there

      ————————–

      The next time you’re in a bar and she’s around, talk to her for two minutes or less, tease her, mess her up, and pick a better looking girl. Be the one breaking rapport, and not the one next to her waiting your turn to talk to her while other guys come and go.

      Even if you don’t get this girl, the principle that you ‘don’t chase’ will affect everything else you do (and improve your odds). I may write more on that later.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/06/2018 at 11:42 am

        “Me : Good for you that you found someone …

        The addition of the 2nd line is to push away her wall and be somewhat ”

        That line makes the wall real, it doesn’t push it away.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 12:17 pm

          It appears that I had a “hammer” (response of push wall away) and was looking for a “nail” (wall to push away).

          Noted to future responses

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/07/2018 at 3:56 pm

            No response from Polish girl but the “yohami WALL REPACKAGE + RETURN” seems to have had its effect.

            While no response, she did check my profile again online. Likely next interaction will be in person.

            Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/06/2018 at 12:18 pm

        “Flat Lander says “silence” and that would be a proper response for another context. My first gut reaction was to write back “Sure” and let it be, but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU.”

        Not necessarily silence, but pulling back hard from the interaction.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/06/2018 at 12:47 pm

        For this:

        “3) Her line “hehe you are fun” she is parroting your same line back to you, aka, she is MIRRORING you.”

        This I did observe after you talking about mirroring earlier (good morning, good morining, etc). I understand this as she was now following me.

        For “Sorry, Im not available”, the part that I did not interpret correctly was the ‘sorry’ being at a new sentence followed by a comma and then ‘not available’ which tells me she thinks I am looking at her as girlfriend material.

        What helps me understand her messages is where you have split her two messages and are responding separately although in a single message. I need to keep this in mind when multiple points come in the same message.

        For the line “Me : All the girl like fun ;)” I was trying to create innuendo which would have written as “Me: All the girls like me ;)” but now in retrospect it seem very strange to write this. An attempt at connecting her to me although this doesnt work thinking more about it. In other words, I was trying to continue on her ‘hahaha’ point but this appears not the way to do it.

        As the yohami response is “Yeah, I’m the best ;)”, it sounds as though when the girl says a positive trait about me, I would need to be narcissist in my reply (keeping it about either me or her and not a 3rd abstract party).

        I think in the last two messages when I asked her out, her response was showing a change in the frame in myself psychologically. So something is going on when I am just starting a conversation (detached) and then becoming more concerned the more it progresses (hence inadvertent bottom guy in my last responses).

        “She used the little validation to make you crash into a wall harder.”
        I didnt see it as a trap but after reading it again, I can see it as a trap (ie. to get bottom guy to invest in the walls).

        “but the whole context here is she’s the one TALKING TO YOU”
        This context is driving the frame of the complete interaction and everything would need to be re-evaluated against this. She did ping me first and knowing that I went out, she wanted to know what happened. This sets the direction of the discussion (she made right choice? does guy give girl another chance? Or does guy turn and chase girl?)

        After some discussion, I am again asking her out. Here she sets the ‘trap’ (validation ramp
        with yohami wall). My initial reaction is to try to push away (hence my suggested responses) but the correct response is to follow the initial frame / context of the interaction and take the validation ramp and leave her behind (as she not coming along) but not shut out.

        Bottom guy takes a few more nicks and bleeds a bit more.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 12:14 pm

        “The next time you’re in a bar and she’s around, talk to her for two minutes or less, tease her, mess her up, and pick a better looking girl.”

        If I understand this right, “mess her up” would be to push her boundaries. It sounds like teasing as I am sure that she does not get teased a lot given her looks. But you list “mess her up” separately from “teasing”. Can you give an example?

        Assuming this followup interaction goes as expected, in maintaining [NO CHASE] I would have to wait for her to come find me? What if the scenario is that she gives me eyes at a distance and is inviting me to go back into discussion / interaction with her?

        Do I go back (feels incorrect if I am the prize) or do I motion to her to join me (feels better)?
        If I motion for her to join me and she doesnt move, I would have to just leave it at that point as if I go to her, I am “rewarding her saying no to come to me”.

        Am i seeing it right?

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 12:42 pm

          You sexy beast strolling up to her with a smirk: “Hey, it looks like you’re stalking me (accuse her). Can’t a guy have a peaceful drink without posh girls throwing themselves at him, Jeez!”
          Posh girl. “Wha-what? No..”
          Sexy beast: “That’s ok, I understand. Have fun, stalker!”

          Then go and talk to a hot girl, cool guys, flirt with the waitresses and ignore her until she reinitiates.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/11/2018 at 12:58 pm

            Perfectly valid

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:47 pm

            I can see this working. The individual wording may be changed but the point is made.

            It would also allow for new nickname which could open a new thread / element to the interaction.

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              05/11/2018 at 4:20 pm

              No, you change a single word, it won’t work lolozolzozloz

              Seriously now, you need to see the intent behind the words. What would a cheeky bastard do to a girl that hasn’t hopped on his dick yet? How would he treat her? Like the annoying sister of his best friend, like a cute time waster,

              Also, “stalker” is good to tease her, but way too strong as a regular nickname. It’s about placing her in various concepts, frames and see what gets her going.

              Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 1:01 pm

          What the girl does in the dance is putting herself in situations where you can make a move, and then giving you hints that she’ll be ok with you escalating. That means it’s not her job to come to you and initiate conversation, even if she’s fully DTF.

          So when she gives you ‘that look’ you go and talk to her.

          You can start this by initiating eye contact as well.

          This thing where she ‘chases’ doesn’t mean that your job is to run around and play difficult. You’re not supposed to be unattainable – what you’re supposed to is to be banging other girls so she’s in a cue list, and you won’t tolerate bad stuff because you can do better.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:44 pm

            So if a girl gives me a signal (look, smile, head nod, raised drink glass, etc) I must move to her at all times. If I dont move to her, I am effectively saying ‘no’ to her.

            It is kinda strange as my instinct feeling are reversed but again this would still be bottom guy instinct (ie. you didnt like me last time so I gone). Slowly being reversed.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/11/2018 at 3:19 pm

              Close.

              In principle: yes. If you act whenever there’s an opening, and as quickly as possible, and as boldly and confident as possible, ESCALATING, you’ll see a huge improvement here.

              You will find that a number of girls are tuned into this and use it as bait to reject you, example they will act in a seductive and inviting manner, just to reject you when you act on it. For now you can stay away from these but the principle is:

              You mus ACT when there’s an opening, but it must be one of your OWN.

              You can’t just ‘do specifically what the girl is prompting you to do’ because that means you’re following.

              And part of what the girls will prompt you to do is jump from a rooftop if you let them.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 3:39 pm

                “If you act whenever there’s an opening, and as quickly as possible, and as boldly and confident as possible, ESCALATING, you’ll see a huge improvement here.”

                I was not doing this the last time because I was waiting ‘for my turn to talk’ and it caused issues (already discussed). Next time, I will press ahead.

                —

                “You will find that a number of girls are tuned into this and use it as bait to reject you, example they will act in a seductive and inviting manner, just to reject you when you act on it. For now you can stay away from these”

                Me trying to figure out who these girls are is going to be difficult (at this stage). It did remind me of another girl who came to me being all nice and opening the discussion but it was because she wanted to play a practical joke (some silly bet she made with someone else). I saw through it and turned it around.

                Are you referring to this type of behaviour?

                We still chat from time to time (on good terms but I am not interested in her).

                —

                “You must ACT when there’s an opening, but it must be one of your OWN. You can’t just ‘do specifically what the girl is prompting you to do’ because that means you’re following.”

                Intellectually, this makes sense but contextually, I have difficulty in turning it into action. Are not all openings by the girls to say ‘please do something / continue’?

                —

                “And part of what the girls will prompt you to do is jump from a rooftop if you let them.”

                This part I did not understand. I can understand if she is trying to work out if she can make me do anything (eg. get a drink, fetch me this, hold my glass, hold my jacket). Are you referring to this?

                I dont do any of this for girls (ie. dont buy them drinks, dont hold their stuff, etc). If I am one-to-one with a girl already at new location, I may do some of these things if it is incidental.

14. Lucretius says:

    05/06/2018 at 12:57 pm

    On the hungarian girl, I sent “Hey ;)” via whatsapp.

    Lets see what happens here. Issue would be if she just says “hey” back and nothing else.
    If this happens, my gut says to make a call back to the bar as something to continue the interaction. At the bar she decided to stay with the bottom guy talking her ear off (crowd was also thinning out) and I decided to go.

    Something like:

    Me : Hey ;)
    Her: Hi

    Me : Did you stay much longer?
    Me : I went off to [other bar] and had fun. You should of come.

    If she gives me something to work with, will post but the conversation may move a bit faster as its whatsapp.

    She may ask about the polish girl …

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/06/2018 at 6:45 pm

      And after vaccuum from her side for 6 hours she said “hi” with nothing else.

      Suggestions?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:05 pm

        If this a third girl? if so what you had on mind can work

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 8:14 pm

          yes, is the third girl.

          She gave the minimum for continuing. I send exactly as I proposed above.
          Now is just wait and see but I am not thinking much will occur here.

          I likely got her number because I was talking with the polish and I was also introduced to her by another girl (much older – mid 40s – but me and her clicked in a social non-sexual way) than this girl (likely late 20s).

          My main sticking point from my last sets of inperson interactions is that I have it in my head that I need to speak with the girl alone before doing roleplay but can do everything else just fine in the group. The focus for the next time is to just ignore everyone else around me and roleplay directly with her. To be clear, I am not talking about ignoring the group but not feeling constrained by the group in moving between group interaction and girl interaction (like I was 2 nights ago).

          It is again a frame problem I need to resolve.

          Reply
      • Flat Lander says:

        05/06/2018 at 8:09 pm

        Basic “slice of life” text and photo.
        You did cool stuff during the May Bank holiday, didn’t you?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/06/2018 at 8:19 pm

          Previously, I would of done something like this which is Krauser ‘Window On My World’ and this would move the discussion forward but it is slanted very much in the direction of asexual rapport and while the girl will keep talking, it isnt moving closer towards sex and likely putting me in the ‘cheap validation for her’ box (or whatsapp buddy)

          I am trying to break the mold on this and trying to continue the interaction from the bar onto text and then back to a bar. During the text interaction, I could probably insert text + photo of “slice of life” if I can find a relevant way to make it about her and me or to tease her somehow.

          I need to try a few things out a number of time to see where the direction is going and the reactions the girl gives me.

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/06/2018 at 10:04 pm

            Text is mainly for logistics, not for continuing a sexualized interaction started in meatspace.

            1. Ping with slice of life (DHV) or a call back to interaction. This is providing her with emotions, which lead to sex. Writing “Hi” is weak unless you are Bieber.
            2. If the the DHV and leading arouse her (Yohami keeps on hammering that point, because that is the only thing that matters), take her out..
            3. If not, pull back and disengage until she re-engages.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/07/2018 at 6:21 am

              Probably some mis-explanation on my words. Not trying to maintain prolonged conversation via text.

              For your points:
              1. I am using call back because it connects her and me. If I DHV / slice of life on opening it would come across as something random and be a third thing and this could put me as ‘friend’. I have used this before but it is just filling up lines.
              2. This is the idea to get 2-3 ‘hahahaha’ based on he responses and then to get her out again.
              3. This is the yohami NO CHASE will be implemented by default unless she comes back.

              Reply
15. YOHAMI says:

    05/07/2018 at 9:07 am

    Check Peterson’s explanation about ‘ruff and tumble play’ that fathers do

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF4PS6sVn3w

    Or: testing the boundaries in a playful manner to see where they are. You find the boundaries, stomp a little over them right on the verge when laughing turns into tears, then step back.

    That’s the ‘manly’ way to find boundaries and is what male on male teasing looks like as well.

    Translated to courtship: that’s also the manly, or top-guy way to dealing with female shit testing and exploration. When she throws shit or exposes her own boundaries, your job is to also go there and mess her up, do ‘ruff and tumble play’ with her, sweep her off her feet, cross her boundaries and find the sweet spot between laughing and crying, and set strong boundaries, all while both of you have ‘fun’.

    This is how bottom guy fails because as soon as he finds a boundary (a wall) he steps back and then smashes against it, or takes it at face value.

    Also how ‘nice guys’ fail because they would never ever do anything in the world that would possibly cross the girls boundaries – so they will just follow the girl and make sure she’s comfortable at all points.

    In contrast, the manly top-guy dude is a ‘challenge’ in that the girl will expose her vulnerabiltities, desires, boundaries, laundry lists and the guy will just mess with that at will and take her to unexpected places, all in the name of fun, and under his rules, but still ‘respecting’ her true self, finding the right spots to rub, and making her come. All in under less time than the nice guy would dare to ask her out.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/07/2018 at 4:03 pm

      This makes sense to me as it would invoke emotions when boundaries are being “pressed / pushed” but not too far that “indignation” turns to “negative feelings”. It sounds as thought the ‘ruff and tumble play’ would be from teasing or passing judgement (casual, offhand or specific) on a particular aspect of a girl to generate these emotions.

      Also, just the act of willing to go there will make distinction between top guy vs bottom guy (nice/boring/friend type of guy).

      Reply
16. Lucretius says:

    05/07/2018 at 4:36 pm

    The concepts of yohami are really starting to become more visible in my interactions.

    Today while on the metro, a girl sat in front of me. Took a while but I opened with “Is this the new spring outfit for girls in 2018 in [city name]?”. She didnt hear it so I repeated and added “It is a running joke I have in my mind that the girls always dress a similar way with just one or two pieces being different, then I looked at you and was wondering if the fashion changed”. She was smiling and laughing here while I was talking (ie. seem to hit the arousal spot – she was just dressed like a student). There was a bit of blah blah blah and then the conversation switched to what she was doing and she said she was going to consulate to resolve papers because she got wrong papers and was abroad (in south america) “illegally” (she had tourist via instead of student visa). As she was talking here about this, the “illegal” part is what was causing her face to light up (another arousal spot). I tried to stay on this by playing on the word illegal / legal between me and her (I travel around for work) but eventually energy came down. There was more blah blah blah (she mentioned her boyfriend once in the middle but I ignored) but what was interesting was that she was filling in the gaps I was leaving asking me questions and when metro approaching my stop, things went like this:

    *two metro stops away after travelling question*
    Her: So you have kids?
    Me : No, I am perpetually single but not alone.

    Her: *she says something and I interpret that she didnt understand*
    Me : You can read in between the lines

    Me : some blah blah
    Her: some blah blah

    *one metro stop away from my stop*
    Her: *fiddling with her phone looking at it*
    Me : I would like to continue this and get to know you more (Conscious pause)

    Her: *still fiddling with her phone looking at it – 5 sec already passed*. like later?
    Me : yes, a coffee or drink or something (Conscious pause)

    Her: *still fiddling with her phone looking at it – 2-3 sec pass*. Sure
    Me : Let me take your number. *I take out my phone and wait*

    5 seconds had passed and she took my phone and put her number in and added herself as a contact (without me asking). I gave her a “man woman handshake” and gave my name and that I would text. I then walked out.

    The point of the above is really to backup what yohami has been saying about when he breaks down Tim (fuckboy) interaction in this post: http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/tyo-making-japanese-mormon-virgin/#comment-3878

    For ease of reference, lets term this “yohami STATE+WAIT” where the girl must respond before things can move forward.

    This was a similar reaction to what the polish did where I waited and SHE moved things forward again. Before I would just try everything in one line and sometimes work but most times her response is “I got a boyfriend”.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/07/2018 at 5:27 pm

      Good stuff.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/07/2018 at 6:57 pm

        The more I think about this, the more I think it has todo with a ‘girl reflex’ response.

        I imagine that girls are approached by guys with such regularity that they are already so good at categorizing the guy into a particular box because of his actions or verbals (likely on very little information). If the actions + verbals are aligned with bottom guy, the girl brain will quickly use the bottom guy label and eventually cut the interaction.

        But if that pattern of behaviour is interrupted such that it doesnt appear to follow ‘bottom guy’ then that part of the brain that detects things out of the ordinary must come online and then the girl starts to evaluate the guy again (as you said yohami, with game after game after game) trying to confirm what type of guy he is – perhaps trying to resolve cognitive dissonance?

        This is likely why the ‘yohami STATE+WAIT’ would have an effect because it breaks the bottom guy pattern template. This echoes some of your previous comments where just being ‘less bottom guy’ raises the odds but doesnt make one ‘top guy’ and by converse, doing ‘top guy’ while also doing ‘bottom guy’ doesnt make one ‘top guy’ because there is still ‘bottom guy’ in the mix.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/07/2018 at 9:02 pm

          Yeah but get a little deeper, or closer.

          The reason you like attractive girls is because they are fertile. Boobs are good for breastfeeding, good skin means good health, wide hips means kids can come out easy. However you’re not “thinking” about any of this when you see a girl you like.

          The attraction happens before you are able to think.

          ——————-

          Girls are attracted not jut to physicality but also to behavior. They are attracted to both the man who is physically dominant and shows strength and good genes, AS WELL to the natural behaviors that come from men who are high on the hierarchy.

          So

          ——————

          The reason the [WAIT] ‘works’ is because this is how men who are top in the hierarchy communicate. What are they waiting for? that the girl will play along and say yes.

          When you WAIT what you’re doing is letting the girl say yes.

          When you DONT WAIT then you’re stacking because you think the girl will say no so you keep trying to improve the offer or manipulate her. The stacking and no pause means you’re trying to fill a gap. This means the girl needs to pause herself and get distance and look at you from the far to understand where you’re coming from.

          Again, laser focus:

          You stack lines because you’re trying to get the girl.

          Top guy doesn’t “TRY” to get the girl. He takes the girl. How? by stating his intention, and specting the girl to play along.

          This is what in Game is mentioned as “assuming attraction”

          But when bottom guy you’re trying to “create attraction” because you assume you have no value, so you have to “create it”

          Top guy says “hi” and smiles expects the girl to play along and drop her panties.

          Bottom guy says “hi, I saw you and thought I wanted to talk to you and you have a nice dress is that seasonal or how do you combine that with this hey don’t run away!”

          Bottom guy is dealing with rejection and trying to overcome it.

          Top guy is pinging her desire.

          ————————————————-

          But this is not what the girl is thinking about at all. It’s more simple.

          When you talk like a top guy talks, the girl reacts like girls react when they interact with top guy. Which means they drop their panties.

          Just like what happens in you when you interact with a super hot girl, you get a boner.

          There’s no defense.

          ————————————————–

          Some comments

          “I imagine that girls are approached by guys with such regularity”

          Yes but has nothing to do with this. Get a girl who has never seen a man and she reacts in the same exact way. This is biology and is hard wired.

          “the girl brain will quickly use the bottom guy label and eventually cut the interaction.”

          Yep, but it happens in their emotions. They fit you in a category and then that’s ‘true forever’ because they feel that way about you, right there.

          And they have no control over their feelings.

          “trying to confirm what type of guy he is – perhaps trying to resolve cognitive dissonance?”

          Yes – they are carrying two stories, at all times (and this never ends), in one you’re “the one” and in the other “you’re a piece of shit”, or, in one you’re “in” and in the other you’re “out”. Both endings are always valid and she’ll try to make you fit in either all the time, forever.

          The ending where you’re are out is you as a bottom guy.

          The ending where you are in is you as a top guy.

          This above is why women can’t ever lead: half their drive is to ‘ruin things’

          Also why you can’t let a girl lead you in the courtship. Half her clues are to kick you out of the tribe.

          But because the ‘bad ending’ is for bottom guy and the ‘good ending’ for top guy, all you have to do is channel the top guy yourself and be that, then from there handle the moment by moment in the relationship.

          When you’re rewarding / punishing / storytelling what you are is channeling the good ending and kicking away or nullifying the bad ending.

          And because bottom guy can only deal with rejection it can create complicated narratives on how to get the girl DESPITE she trying to push him away. Which is nonsense.

          Just ping her desire

          heh.

          “Just”

          “would have an effect because it breaks the bottom guy pattern template.”

          It’s not that it breaks the bottom guy template.

          Command – obedience IS the template of Top Guy frame. So waiting for her to follow is how the proper script was written. You’re not supposed to stack and chase and caramel and negotiate and beg and compensate to fuck the girl.

          “doesnt make one ‘top guy’”

          How not?

          If you have a plain jane girl and she hits the gim, gets boobs, loses the belly, goes to the hairdresser etc and looks like a 10

          When you deal with her, is she a 10 or not?

          AKA

          If you talk like a top guy, then you’re a top guy while talking.

          Then if you act like a bottom guy, then you’re bottom guy in that other area.

          Your job is to get rid of the crap and channel the gold.

          You don’t necessarily have to be ‘top guy’ 100% to have sex with a girl. Just like a girl doesn’t have to be a ‘perfect ten’ to be attractive.

          Once you’re pass the threshold you’re set, and it’s only win and profits from there.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/07/2018 at 9:19 pm

            Imagine you’re talking to 10 girls at the same time, you say “who want’s pizza”

            Then one by one they start responding. You’ll reply to each one in the order they respond, right?

            After you’ve talked to all of them and maybe had pizza with half of them already, when you’re bored, maybe you’ll ping a girl who didn’t reply. And say “yo?”

            ————-

            The “wait” is the natural behavior when you’re spinning plates. The time it takes the girl to reply is filled by other girls who were quicker and they get whatever you were offering first.

            If the girl doesn’t take the offer, the offer is gone.

            When you flirt or do a call to action or ask anything from the girl, all the time when she hasn’t responded, that’s a “wall”. That means she’s not in compliance, hasn’t aligned yet to receive what you want and / or is not receptive at the moment.

            Insisting on anything when she’s not receptive means you don’t have other more receptive girls.

            Therefore the behavior is incompatible with top guy.

            Therefore she will rise a wall to your follow up and stacking.

            To which you’ll likely reveal your bottom guy frame by then dealing with that wall further.

            ———————–

            You can try this –

            Go to the street and stand and tell a stranger girl “hey you, come here and kiss me”

            And wait.

            There’s even video of this somewhere.

            Top guy doesn’t chase dude.

            Chase is death.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/07/2018 at 9:35 pm

              On this item:

              “If the girl doesn’t take the offer, the offer is gone.”

              Given the hungarian case scenario from earlier (she hasnt responded to the ‘stack’). I am in ‘yohami NO CHASE’ indefinitely via text but what happens if I see her again and she starts interacting with me and saying ‘hi’.

              Should I punish her for her previous no text response?
              or
              Continue the interaction in person like the texts never happened?

              She could restart the interaction because she may see me interacting with another girl. The question would be from the perspective of reward / punishment of her silence.

              The polish is a different case because of the context (she message me).

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/08/2018 at 4:38 am

                When you see her in person continue as in the texts never happened. But do talk to a girl prettier than her. Even better if you also bang the other girls.

17. Lucretius says:

    05/07/2018 at 5:00 pm

    On the point of nicknames, I think there is more to it than just being a ‘fun thing todo’ or even just being ‘judge of her’. It feels to me like the nickname is really a ‘personality caricature’ that triggers not only emotions but also imagination.

    The skill of story telling (story writing) would be applicable here in getting better at this. As example, I recall an interaction at a bar where I started talking with three american girls. One was clearly the pack leader who was being feisty with me constantly jumping in as I was talking to the other girls. A few nights later when I was re-telling the same story to another girl of what happened, I didnt remember the american girls names so I called the leader of the pack as ‘the Rottweiler’ while telling my story.

    ” blah blah and of the three girls, the rottweiler would just not stop talking and kept jumping in always barking her opinion and wanting to drink more beer while everyone else had enough to drink. blah blah blah.”

    The girl I was telling the story to, kept laughing everytime I said ‘rottweiler’ because she is imagining in the theater of her mind an actual rottweiler doing these things. Just giving a girls name or girl category (the bossy american) just wont have the same effect.

    When interacting with a specific girl and the guy is giving a direct nickname to the girl, I think it would accentuate all the real + imagined characteristics of the nickname when the girl hears it (subconsciously she would be trying to exude these characteristics).

    This is what was seen with the polish girl when the opener was ‘Hey Posh girl ;)’ – credit again to Flat Lander. So I think that when speaking to the girl, we need to be constantly scanning the girls personality to find an appropriate nickname and then indirectly use it in conversation with her to make the connection in later conversation or during the initial texts.

    Any other opinions on this?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/07/2018 at 5:31 pm

      You got it.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 12:22 pm

        On the girl from the metro, I opened with:

        Me : Hey tropics girl ;)

        She saw the message soon after sending it but has not replied back (I deleted number) – again many possible reasons (eg. she could of gotten bad news at consulate on her papers, or just changed her mind, or the nickname ‘tropics girl’ she didnt like, etc).

        The key lesson here for me is that unless I got a solid nickname that is on HER PERSONALITY and I have been able to USE IT IN CONVERSATION, it is best to keep the opener generic such as:

        Me : Hey ;)

        It seems like all these little tweaks here and there really change the direction of everything.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 12:32 pm

          It means she doesn’t want your dick. Or, you’re getting blown out by the girls via text, it means you need better real life presence, so focus there. You can start by taking the same principles from the text game into real life.

          Ask this

          Why would tropics girl want to fuck you?

          What is in it for her?

          These questions above are not destined to discourage you but the opposite. What is the angle? what is the door she’s giving you? what is she saying YES to? what is stimulating her?

          Once you’re able to ‘ping’ her desire, all these nuances in game or text game become less important. She has to want to dance.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 1:09 pm

            No worries on the various questions you pose or worrying about my feeling / discouragement. Just keep saying as you are saying and I will eventually figure it out.

            If I think back to tropics girl, it must of been the difference at points in life.
            I was dressed for office work (suit + tie) whereas she was student outfit.
            The only angle I can think of here would of been that I was projecting ‘successful guy’ and perhaps she wanted a part of that.

            For clarity, I am not talking ‘k-selection’ or something along those lines.

            In retrospect, I could of probably pinged more her desire to see more of the world (I have quite a bit of travel experience) and could of played this up some more and perhaps added a story of one of the places I had been to. I do recall mentioning travel (common topic) but didnt talk of any interesting story just that I have been to places.

            But I think you are right on this aspect that I may of just ‘grazed’ her desires instead of doubling down and focusing on it.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/11/2018 at 3:23 pm

              mmm focus

              ” I could of probably pinged more her desire to see more of the world”

              Her desire to see the world is none of your business.

              Her desire to see the world WITH YOU is what you have to focus on.

              Or how her desire to see the world makes her a good sexual partner.

              Or what it says about her and what qualities she has that make the two of you a good match.

              You’re doing sexual courtship.

              I can give some pointers if you have sample conversations

              Reply
18. rivelino says:

    05/07/2018 at 11:34 pm

    https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/993635035604570112

    Reply
19. Factory says:

    05/08/2018 at 11:24 pm

    “If it’s not obvious try to experiment with both ways – not just the phrase but the whole framing.

    Do the courtship dance with 5 girls stating your intent and then asking them for their signs of interests

    Then do the courtship with other 5 girls where you ask for their signs of interest and then state your intent.

    It’s night and day. But do your own research.”

    Luv it when you do this ^ Yohami – always cuts through the BS.

    The way I see it.. here is where Y-banger says to “tease” prior to escalation or another version to “ramp” into a call of action.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/09/2018 at 6:36 am

      Yes, ramp -> call to action, tease -> double down, rapport -> break rapport, flirt -> escalate. From small to big, from soft to hard, from low to high, from chaos to order.

      As opposed to the reverse structure where you start ‘hard’ or doing a call to action then ‘passing it to her’

      The only viable alternative (that I see right now) of passing it to her, is when the call to action doesn’t necessarily involve her, aka is something that is happening regardless of her, example:

      Me: Im going to the movies, wanna come?
      Me: Im ordering mexican, wanna join?

      Me: [this is happening without you] [you can jump in]

      Reply
20. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 6:30 am

    This is important so I’ll set it apart

    This is about FRAME and not specific words

    ——————————————————————

    1) Tease her / swing dick / ramp
    2) Do the call to action

    Instead of:

    1) Call to action / State intent
    2) Ask her if she’s going to play

    ——————————————————————

    Tease / Call to action: you invest when she showed compliance. So you’re creating the opportunity and then doubling down. If you ping but don’t wait for her reply and do a call to action that implicitly assumes she will play along, this is ‘top guy’ frame to the core

    Call to action / Question: You invested before she showed compliance and then asked for compliance, so, your cards are on the table before there was an opportunity and now ask for an opportunity to match your desire, and instead of assuming she will play along asks for her voluntary participation

    Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 7:03 am

      “2) Ask her if she’s going to play”

      Ask her **WHEN** is she going to play!!!

      We are not talking about Tindersluts you’ve never met who are being bombarded with multiple offers and you have to somehow dramatically stand out! We are talking about a woman you already had a nontrivial one-on-one face-to-face interaction in social setting/on the street.

      Ya feel me? It’s context, not frame, because the appropriate frame is also context dependent.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 7:20 am

        “It’s context, not frame”

        Im talking about frame. Depending on context many other things will come in to factor. If this is a girl who’s into you and you’ve already set a pace, this can be plenty:

        —————————-

        Me: I want to see you

        Or:

        Me: Do you have time this week?

        Or even:

        Me: sup

        ——————————

        “We are not talking about Tindersluts you’ve never met who are being bombarded with multiple offers and you have to somehow dramatically stand out! ”

        Since when are we not talking about Tindersluts?

        “We are talking about a woman you already had a nontrivial one-on-one face-to-face interaction in social setting/on the street.”

        She’s also a tinderslut.

        And you still need to be leading, and you still need to be coming off from the right frame for all the other things to fall into place

        But you already saw how ending with a question is passing the power to her.

        Focus there.

        Frame.

        Reply
        • arr123 says:

          05/09/2018 at 9:37 am

          Context

          You chose “top guy” frame as your archetypical deity based on the context of your life — your mother, your father, your family, your culture. Different contexts will ask for different gods/archtypes/frames — or at least not insist on universal predominant application of yours as much as you do.

          Not all women are tindersluts and the ones who respond positively to game are less likely to be such. Stats 101.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/09/2018 at 11:04 am

            Nope, you’re wrong.

            Reply
            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:21 am

              Says who?

              Reply
              • arr123 says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:29 am

                In what context have you come up with you map?

                In a context of travellers through BA, in the context of CS, in the context of on-line game. You specifically avoided local girls [CRAZY!!!] without even realizing that what you’ve learnt no longer translates to locals in other countries either.

                I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value dick offerings all the times. That makes them much more receptive to my game when approached face-to-face.

                You reil against daygame but fail to notice that in the pool of on-line canditates, you prospects are WAY, WAY, WAY worse. You must be at the VERY bottom of social hierarchy to even use Tinder regularly.

                Wrong. Wrong. Limited YouR [sic].

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:33 am

                Says your own perception if you get out the way and look outside.

                “Different contexts will ask for different gods/archtypes/frames”

                The context of the sexual courtship, as in male / female, relies on hierarchy. Females want to mate with the males at the top of the hierarchy, and the males at the top of the hierarchy incarnate the same archetype.

                “or at least not insist on universal predominant application of yours as much as you do.”

                This has nothing to do with me. Look OUTSIDE. Wake the fuck up.

                “Not all women are tindersluts”

                Madona / whore complex alert.

                “the ones who respond positively to game are less likely to be such”

                What is a woman who doesn’t respond positively to Game?

                Describe her. Does she like men?

                “You chose “top guy” frame as your archetypical deity based on the context of your life — your mother, your father, your family, your culture. ”

                No. This isn’t cultural, and is not remotely related to anything that I “chose”. Im describing what is – so you can go outside, look at what ‘is’ and describe what you see, like I do.

                Women didn’t “chose” to be attracted to “top guy”.

                And you didn’t chose to be attracted to chocolate dildos either.

            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:40 am

              https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2015/08/11/my-day-2-with-alice-the-cute-italian-girl/#comment-2257:

              “you swing your dick in front of her and let her want you. When you perceive that she wants something, you give her that, escalating. She wants a kiss? you kiss her and grab her ass. She’s feeling X, you give X + 1. You take her like a storm. But she needs to want to be taken, OR everything you do only increases her barriers, pushing you farther and farther every time you “spike”.”

              from what i can tell from your writing, you feel that girls are either on or off, either they want to fuck you or they don’t, and there isn’t a “process”, an evolution to that desire, aka the comfort phase, where the girl’s sexual desire grows partially based on her emotional connection growing, and her trust in the man growing (no fear of physical harm). from what i can tell, you don’t believe in this comfort phase. you believe in the opposite, in ramping up the sexual tension until it explodes in uncontrollable desire, and you are fingering her in public.

              i think your mindset is understandable because it is shaped by your experience. didn’t you get most of your 200 lays from CS? that is one type of girl, the girl who is in a new country looking for cock. not every girl has that mindset and even if every girl *did* have that mindset, not every girl has that mindset all the time. or, to ask the question a different way, what percentage of girls use CS? or do you believe that every girl can be fucked in four or seven hours, no matter her situation, if she is single, married, horny, not horny?

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:41 am

                Read the comments

            • arr123 says:

              05/09/2018 at 11:43 am

              [“Not all women are tindersluts”

              Madona / whore complex alert.]

              Don’t be a fucking idiot and ignore the

              “I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value [on-line] dick offerings all the times.”

              There is a world of difference between a SLUT and a TINDERSLUT/COCK SURFER that you seem to be COMPLETELY oblivious to…

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/09/2018 at 11:47 am

                “Don’t be a fucking idiot”

                Sasha?

                “I know multiple women who’ve never been on tinder, who don’t have facebook, instagram, and who don’t get bombarded with low-value [on-line] dick offerings all the times.”

                Are they willing to have sex before marriage?

              • arr123 says:

                05/09/2018 at 1:07 pm

                “Sasha?”

                Who?

                “Are they willing to have sex before marriage?”

                Yes. I’m in mLTR with two such women at the moment.
                One of them is moving to my city to live with me.
                Sex on tap, zero competition.

21. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 6:38 am

    Arr12,

    “the lead is already warm, moist, and waiting for me”

    If she’s already DTF it doesn’t matter what you say. Send a pic of your dead cat and it’ll work.

    Reply
22. YOHAMI says:

    05/09/2018 at 1:41 pm

    Arr123,

    [Are they willing to have sex before marriage?]

    “Yes.”

    They are sluts then.

    “I’m in mLTR with two such women at the moment.”

    Super sluts.

    “One of them is moving to my city to live with me.”

    The things they do for cock.

    “Sex on tap, zero competition.”

    Get ready for the nesting phase.

    So the next question is: do they react well to your Game? do they follow your lead? are you leading them, or are they leading you? who wears the pants? are you submissive to them, or are they submissive to you?

    Cough.

    Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 3:10 pm

      > They are sluts then.

      Maybe. But they certainly aren’t tindersluts. Different context, different rules, different games.

      > Super sluts.

      Madonna-slut complex alert!

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 3:16 pm

        “Maybe. But they certainly aren’t tindersluts. Different context, different rules, different games.”

        Are you dominant or submissive with them?

        “Madonna-slut complex alert!”

        There are no madonnas. “Tinderslut” is your confusion by thinking that this is measured by the which mediums you use. So are your girls reacting to Game or not?

        Reply
        • arr123 says:

          05/09/2018 at 3:24 pm

          “Are you dominant or submissive with them?”

          Neither. I’ve tried lots of dominance and found lons of resistance. A mix of unbrindled passion, mutual growth and inspiration – sprinkled with tiny bits of dominance – works for me.

          “There are no madonnas.”

          There are no top guys.

          ““Tinderslut” is your confusion by thinking that this is measured by the which mediums you use.”

          Medium is the message.

          “So are your girls reacting to Game or not?”

          There is no Game. Only games. And yours sucks!

          Reply
          • arr123 says:

            05/09/2018 at 3:32 pm

            “Dude.”

            I’m not your dude.

            “Cheers.”

            Suck – not suckS!

            Reply
    • arr123 says:

      05/09/2018 at 3:38 pm

      Dominance is the deadlift of playboy game. But it’s not the whole GAME. Especially if you are martial artists and not a gym rat.

      Reply
      • arr123 says:

        05/09/2018 at 4:03 pm

        Getting what?

        I know/see your context/game.

        Do you feel mine?

        Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/09/2018 at 6:01 pm

        It worked well on you and I didn’t even try.

        Reply
23. Lucretius says:

    05/11/2018 at 4:08 pm

    Continuing here below on tropics girl.

    It is still particular habit that when I am talking with a girl and the conversation dies down, there is always a “stack” in my head that I start to ramble through. It covers the following topics (no particular order):
    – How long you been here in [City X]?
    – How do you like it?
    – You done much travelling?
    – What is the big picture (ie. future plans)?
    – etc

    The above is a bad habit (rapport) I am moving myself away from to being more ‘freestyle’ but the point of travelling comes up and is a point for DHV where I have been travelling for a long time already and generally the girl hasnt.

    With the tropics girl, the relevant point of the discussion went something like this:

    Her : blah blah blah tourist visa blah blah
    Me : blah blah

    Me : Have you travelled much?
    Her : Not that much, only a few places *pause*. I want to see more but one i need money to travel around *makes face expression and shrugs shoulders*

    Me : Travelling is a good experience. I was lucky as I have been travelling throughout the world since being a student because I had good deal on tickets blah blah blah. I been to [country 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + etc]. What places have you wanted to go to?
    Her : Dont know *pause*. I would not want to explore south america *pause*.

    — End of segment —

    In retrospect, writing the above out, I can see multiple issues in where I went wrong. While I am showing DHV from my travels, I am missing many things:
    – I have not connected her and me together (ie. there is no roleplay – eg. when time allows, make time for travel. Imagine me and you at [city x] doing blah blah blah)
    – the travel discussion cannot go in many directions (if she has been to same place as me, we can talk about this but doesnt lead to much. If she hasnt been to same place, I can only mention that it is good place to go).
    – the core problem appears to be the topic of travel itself. Unless she really really wanted to travel, it doesnt seem to be a thing for me to press the conversation forward to find those ‘hahahaha’
    – there is no interesting / funny story involved in my travels or the process of travelling in my conversation. If I had talked about that one time where were cross winds on landing were so strong the plane was swinging from side to side that it felt I was on a boat in the high seas being sailed by a drunken sea captain blah blah or that time when the plane seats were oversold and I got bumped up to business class by the pretty flight attendant with the short skirt and gifted chest. How good it was there up in front being attended to blah blah.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:42 pm

      1. The conversation dies down? You let it die. Filling silences is beta af. If she’s attracted/aroused, she will reinitiate. If she’s bored, she’ll signal a gf to come over and save her from your boring ass

      2.These questions in the travel stack dry her vagina fast, It’s gay.

      When you have nothing cool to say, don’t talk!

      A reformulation:

      “Have you travelled much?” –> I bet you haven’t left your home town since that trip in high school. Coward!

      3. Tropics girl was so into you. (I guess you’re probably very good looking.)

      She said: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”

      This is her opening up, telling about her fear, dreaming of you looking into her soul.

      Next time, instead of:

      “Travelling is a good experience… and more verbose beta shit.”

      you should say (before she opens up)

      “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home, because the world is a dangerous place…(pause)

      Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”

      Bingo! She’s tingling.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 4:53 pm

        “1. The conversation dies down? You let it die. Filling silences is beta af. If she’s attracted/aroused, she will reinitiate. If she’s bored, she’ll signal a gf to come over and save her from your boring ass”

        This is normally during daytime when I am going to / coming from the office so there is no one else. Before I was always jumping in with this or that to avoid silence. With tropics girl, I wasnt thinking of silences or filling in but wanted to avoid a “conversation stack” – she was filling in the silences asking me questions.

        I likely need to have reach a “point” where she is animated enough from the discussion and had 1-2 “hahahahaha” moments before just keeping quiet and letting her jump in.

        Generally speaking, various points of my interactions are improving over time – just not all seamless and in all the right areas as of yet.

        —

        “Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
        This is her opening up, telling about her fear, dreaming of you looking into her soul.”

        This is something interesting for me to keep in mind. If she has some ‘fear’ on a particular area to play with that in a teasing way like you said here:

        “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home, because the world is a dangerous place…(pause)”

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 5:03 pm

          No, you lead her to that place of vulnerability. Once she opens, you reward her. For the love of god, don’t punish her for that.

          You: “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home…”
          Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
          You, Oh…now you are showing some sense, young lady. I like that.”

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 7:42 pm

            “You: “Travelling is for men. Cute little girls should stay at home…”
            Her: “I would NOT want to explore south america *pause*.”
            You, Oh…now you are showing some sense, young lady. I like that.””

            This part does not make sense to me. it feels like it is going for rapport.
            Why would she be showing some sense? Why would I be rewarding her in this aspect telling me where she wont go?

            My gut instinct would be todo something like:

            Her : I wold not want to explore south america *pause*
            Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?

            Your answer does not feel like it can go anywhere further (unless I am giving reasons on south america) whereas the answer I am proposing would involve her further with her giving me more information (conversation branches) to work with.

            The aim from my side would be to looking for things where she ‘lights up’ or shows some kind of emotion response (positive or negative from her memory) and move from there. I would need the emotion to get her to remember the interaction more vividly but obviously I dont want to “imprint” the interaction with a negative emotion so I would have to guide the conversation if it turns negative back to positive.

            Reply
            • Flat Lander says:

              05/11/2018 at 8:33 pm

              You set the frame and the rule (e.g. cute girls shouldn’t travel).

              She expresses compliance with your rule (I’m scared of South America!).

              You reward her with your approval. (Good, reasonable girl)

              Her compliance gets you closer to your D in her V.

              From there, you snip that thread and ask if she’s always so well behaved/if she’s a rebel.

              (Translation: are you up for adventure sex?)

              You’re trying to establish an emotional connection, not learning about the movies she’s watched.

              Conversational branches are important if you place yourself in the position of an entertainer (bottom guy).

              After you reach attraction, she needs to start coming up with topics.and entertain you, i.e. start chasing you.

              Finally, girls need negative emotions. As long as she experiences (safe) fear, outrage, dread in your presence, you’re getting closer to the bang.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/11/2018 at 8:55 pm

                Flat lander on point.

                Lucretious,

                “Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?”

                What are you trying to get at by saying that line?

                Or, what is the response you’re trying to get, where are you going?

                When Flatlander says the line ‘travel is for men’ what he’s doing is channeling basic male / female dynamics. Now she can play along or contest that, both are winning scenarios.

                The other Flatlander line he calls her ‘coward’ and is a tease, all this is what Im referring to ‘mess her up’. You find what her boundaries are by stomping on them, gently or not, and her responses will tell you what she ‘responds to’ sexually, all while elevating the temperature.

                So back to you

                “Me : Why not? You concerned about snakes and the jungle from watching hollywood movies?”

                That’s you passing judgement… but not completely – you’re blaming hollywood so you’re inferring that she’s hooked up on movies? she’s gullible?

                If your line is that she’s gullible, you’d be better making that point

                Me: Don’t tell me you’re one of these gullible girls who think there are pirates in the caribbean

                Or

                Me: Yeah you strike me as a disney princess

                There Im making it about HER, giving her roles to PLAY along, or contest.

                —————-

                Her response there was also she playing along to Flatlander’s idea that traveling is for men. When she plays along and says she’s a stay home girl, it means she played along and you’re the man, and she the girl, so you reward that.

                She could also have said that she’s soo adventurous and likes to travel. That’s she contesting it but also playing along: then you can roleplay that you’re traveling or where you’re going or what is going to happen next, it’s “lets have adventure [sex] time”

                Me: You can’t catch up with me

                or

                Me: Let’s do [Adventure X]

                Or

                Me: Are you down for adventure?

                etc.

                It’s all games. She played along, which is why Flatlander rewards her, and what would follow is escalation.

                You lead, she offers compliance, you reward, then escalate.

                And yeah none of this is about doing beta rapport and showing interest. You’re pinging her desire, escalating, iterating.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 9:11 pm

                I understand the concept you are putting forward although it doesnt feel right in the way you are saying I should approach this.

                From what yohami mentioned in some post (perhaps other thread), the girl will make her initial first impression in seconds based on multiple non-verbals and so she has determined if she if attracted to me or not within the first 30 seconds – assuming she does ‘hahahahaha’ in that time frame. After that, it is something for me to strengthen or lose depending on what I say + do afterwards.

                The above is matching up with my experiences from the past where the reaction is really good upfront and then weakens / dissolves by the end. At no point am I ‘building attraction’ in the process. My mistakes before were around ‘moving through a process’ to get to ask for her number (discussed already many times on this thread)

                “She expresses compliance with your rule (I’m scared of South America!).
                You reward her with your approval. (Good, reasonable girl)”

                I am not following what you mean by the rule. I havent set any rule for her to comply to. Perhaps some misunderstanding here.

                I should be rewarding behaviour I like and punishing behaviour I dont like. I do understand compliance hoops but I think it is via actions (lets move over there, pass me that, hold this for me, comes to me, etc) and not compliance on verbals.

                “From there, you snip that thread and ask if she’s always so well behaved/if she’s a rebel.”

                This also does not seem like fluid conversation. I should only snip the thread if it is going the wrong way.

                On being an angle / rebel, I would likely tease it out of her when she was talking about “illegally being in south america”. Some play on this could likely get it out and me making a casual statement that she is a rebel. If there is no verbal comeback on this or she grins / smiles, then it is confirmed without me having to overtly ask it of her.

                “You’re trying to establish an emotional connection, not learning about the movies she’s watched.

                Conversational branches are important if you place yourself in the position of an entertainer (bottom guy).”

                You definitely misinterpreted what I wrote and I am certainly not any girl’s entertainer.
                The point of saying ‘snakes and hollywood movies’ was a “gambit” to move the discussion forward giving me conversation options to find something that ‘hahaha’ / lights her up. Have no interest in what movies a girl watches.

                “After you reach attraction, she needs to start coming up with topics.and entertain you, i.e. start chasing you.”

                Girls are not very imaginative as they always come up with the same boring chit chat topics – just like tropical girl did. There is no way that a girl is going to try to entertain me but she will try to keep the conversation going just like she did in filling in the gaps. Her filling in the gaps is her chasing giving me the opportunity to keep the discussion ongoing.

                Problem from my side on tropical girl, was that I started strong and then the conversation weakened whereas I should of kept following the conversation branches and ‘double down’ on when she was ‘hahahaha’ and ‘face lit up’.

                This is what I understand yohami saying that my ‘in person presence was not strong enough’ and he is right on the money here as I replay my 12-15min interaction with her.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/11/2018 at 9:30 pm

                @yohami

                “Or, what is the response you’re trying to get, where are you going?”

                When I asked about where she would like to travel to, she gave me the “not south america” answer. My proposed answer there was to find out why she gives a place where she would NOT. if I could find the reason why, there may be something else to work with. The normal response would be to list a country or a region (eg. asia, europe, etc).

                Flat lander put his initial hypothetical question before her real answer and then another hypothetical response afterwards. This would change the context and really put her (little girl) as ‘being scared to travel’ and then could have been played around with.

    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:52 pm

      One note about freestyling:

      Freestyling is good when you are in control of your art. Krauser can freestyle. I can’t. You can’t either.

      A rigid, linear structure will kill your vibe.

      What you need in an interaction is to check a few bullet points (she stops her movement and gives you her attention, she hooks and invests (asks a question), she reacts to a tease, she laughs, she qualifies herself, etc)

      It doesn’t matter much when these boxes are checked, but they need to be checked, otherwise she was just being polite to a cute bottom guy.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 5:05 pm

        “What you need in an interaction is to check a few bullet points (she stops her movement and gives you her attention, she hooks and invests (asks a question), she reacts to a tease, she laughs, she qualifies herself, etc)”

        Here I disagree for me personally.

        Krauser was the one who gave me a structure (from his books) and while this took away the element of the unknown, it created a problem where I always have the structure and try to stick to it. The checkbox idea is something that I had in my mind but it caused me to try to fit the “square peg in the round hole” during the conversation. Every time I had tried this (try to get her to ask me a question, try to get her to qualify herself, etc) , it didnt work out because it comes artificial from me.

        I think I mentioned it before, in a 100% social + non-sexual situation, I can just go on and on jumping from this to that to something else. The moment I start to “care” or look for a particular outcome with a girl, it goes all wrong.

        For me, it is really just ‘no structure’ but looking for a “conversation branch” to jump on and to keep playing with that from point to point and improving how a particular ‘mini-game’ is handled during the conversation.

        I can assess these points (is she asking questions, is she laughing, etc) during or after the interaction. I still dont have “bullet time” in my interactions but this is only going to come from more interactions and then dissecting everything and formulate alternatives / getting opinions on this and that for the next time, then repeat process.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 5:29 pm

          It’s not about bullet time.

          It’s about leading the conversation within your frame(work).

          You don’t try to tick a particular checkbox, but you act, talk, move so that she has the space to get into a flirty conversation and progress in her arousal.

          Do you have a wing who could observe you as you pick up the girls?

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/11/2018 at 7:45 pm

            No wing as I am not doing ‘daygame’ per say. I am just going on about my day to day and there are pretty girls at the metro from time to time.

            Other times, I am at a bar with other expats and conversations go from there.

            Would not want a wing for anything (unless is a girl) because the guy would likely be a social liability more than anything else. This is just my personal opinion.

            Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/11/2018 at 4:56 pm

      “pretty flight attendant with the short skirt and gifted chest”

      This is so gay. Top men don’t brag about girls they didn’t fuck. They don’t brag about girls they fucked either.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/11/2018 at 8:57 pm

      Yep this is death

      “Me : Travelling is a good experience. I was lucky as I have been travelling throughout the world since being a student because I had good deal on tickets blah blah blah. I been to [country 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + etc]. What places have you wanted to go to?”

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/11/2018 at 9:09 pm

        Fixing that nonsense, simulating real time chit chat from:

        Remembering some 2 min conversation with some girl on a bus

        Me: So you’re a traveler uh?
        She: Yes
        Me: What kind, cheap or posh?
        She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap
        Me: That’s fine (reward for playing along
        Me: Have you been to brazil?
        Me: I was there in the summer
        She: no.. (I note lack of interest, so I switch)
        Me: I spent a couple months there partying then I went to a retirement in the amazonas
        Me: We stayed in this huuuge presidential house. At night there’s no electricity around so you can feel the forest and see all the sky and every little star. So we were making a fire and it went off and It thought fuck we’re in the middle of nowhere and we’re all going to die here
        She: Thats sooo dramatic! (very happy and invested girl)
        Me: It was amazing
        Me: I’ll take you next time ;-)
        Me: So what’s up with you
        She: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
        Me: Oh yeah
        She: blah blah blah
        Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
        She: Nope!
        Me: Because you’re cheap
        She: (punches, happy)
        Me: Cheap and weak. You need more protein. Ouch
        Me: Now Im not going to take you
        She: You’re mean
        Me: Sometimes ;-)
        Me: So let’s meet on on thursday? I’ll take you to X
        She: Not sure if I can on thursday
        Me: Well ping me when you know
        She: What’s your number?
        Me: 1xx201
        Me: There
        She: mine 1xc001
        Me: That’s why you can’t afford travel you spent all your money on that phone
        She: hahahaa

        Etc

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:37 pm

          This is really nice to read … I can see many of the concepts incorporated in here.
          Reading it just sounds like a fun chat with you teasing the girl while using previous information from earlier.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:02 am

          “Me: So you’re a traveler uh?
          She: Yes
          Me: What kind, cheap or posh?
          She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap”

          This block is very good for me to see because it changes the way in which I can ‘open’ a conversation. I have always read that one should open with a statement instead of a question but if I forget everything I have read, the above makes perfect rational sense. Let’s say that the girl responded as below:

          Me : So you’re a traveler uh?
          Her : Yes
          Me : What kind, cheap or posh?
          Her : hahaha … I like to fly in style
          Me : Good girl for liking the finer things in life

          Would the above work? I am rewarding her by saying ‘good girl’ with some extra words for the sentence to make conversational sense.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:15 am

          “Me: Have you been to brazil?
          Me: I was there in the summer”

          Your explanation of above and calling it “seeking rapport and then immediately breaking rapport” helps me understand your various other posts in what you mean by breaking rapport.

          In my mind, this is simplified to [question + statement].
          If I was just asking [question] for information / opinion, then it would be rapport.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 9:21 am

          On this block:

          ”
          Me : Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
          Her : Nope!
          Me : Because you’re cheap
          Her : (punches, happy)”

          Is there a reasons for arranging the words as:

          Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X? (statement + question)

          instead of:

          Me: Have you done X? It’s because you haven’t done X (question + statement)

          Would the first line be ‘judge’ and then posting question; whereas the second line would be ‘rapport + breaking rapport’?

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/12/2018 at 4:44 pm

          “Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?
          She: Nope!

          She’s in. I can take her now, but I’ll escalate here”

          How do you know that “she is in” at this point? I am not seeing any clear point that determines this.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/11/2018 at 9:23 pm

        Noted

        Approach is to just take an individual place and spin a story on it as opposed to just listing places and why I was able to visit such places.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:43 pm

          There are a millon things happening there

          “Me: So you’re a traveler uh?”

          Its a challenge, Im not validating her

          “She: Yes”

          Low invest response, so I switch to judge her

          “Me: What kind, cheap or posh?”

          Will she play along?

          “She: hahaha … Im not rich! but I try to not be cheap”

          She plays along – note the ‘hahaha’ means she likes this. Now this will be a punctuation. I found an angle, I’ll look for more and come back to this one as we go

          “Me: That’s fine”

          Reward for playing along

          “Me: Have you been to brazil?”

          I take on the travel angle guessing that she’s been in brazil or likes beaches, so I ask the question

          “Me: I was there in the summer”

          Before she even starts talking, I break the rapport and state that I was there. So Im doing rapport and breaking it at the same time

          “She: no.. ”

          I note that she’s not into the brazil thing a bit, so now I guess she’s not the sunny shiny superficial girl. What else does she like? partying? drama? darkness? I’ll swing my dick and see what clicks

          “Me: I spent a couple months there partying then I went to a retirement in the amazonas”

          Me saying that I spent two months partying in a place that she just showed me she has no interest on is me saying ‘fuck your preferences’ and ‘this is my story’ but it’s short. I inject that I partied there, for two months. What kind of guy parties for two months in brazil? a loser or a winner? guess what’s my framing. But then I go to a retirement – Im moving the story to a deeper place to see if she resonates

          “Me: We stayed in this huuuge presidential house. At night there’s no electricity around so you can feel the forest and see all the sky and every little star. So we were making a fire and it went off and It thought fuck we’re in the middle of nowhere and we’re all going to die here”

          While Im telling this (true) story, her eyes open more and more and she’s captivated, so I do some rounds on it. Note how I stayed on a ‘presidential home’ and ‘we’ were making fire so Im also showing her Im not a loner but a social guy who goes to places with people

          “She: Thats sooo dramatic! ”

          She was loving it. So she likes deeper stories and drama. I’ll use this later as well. We’ve got

          1) Likes monetary / posh judgements, likely wants a lifestyle bigger than the one she’ve got, aka, she’s not a hippie. A hippie would have jumped into critiquing capitalism

          2) She’s not big on mainstream entertainment, doesn’t go to the beach, at least not populated ones. Responds well to drama. Likely likes to read.

          3) May or not be a party girl. So now Im guessing art / drama studies. I’ll check later. For now it’s time to reward and break rapport.

          “Me: It was amazing”

          I pass judgement on myself. Im amazing like that see.

          “Me: I’ll take you next time ;-)”

          Now this is roleplay and a call to action. She sustains my sight for a second but I perceive a little wall. She may have a boyfriend or something. She’s scrutinizing me. So I break this rapport again

          “Me: So what’s up with you”

          Dry and commanding, check “fuckboy tim” for this kind of tone, inviting to rapport. Basically Im asking her to show me her puzzle, her game

          “She: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”

          She launches on a tipically boring tirade about how hard it is to be in the city under whatever conditions

          “Me: Oh yeah”

          I keep her talking just punctuating her so she continues. She says she’s ‘bored’ which means I can be her fun (that’s why she’s telling me she’s bored)

          “She: blah blah blah”

          I have enough data and proceed to do the next game

          “Me: Well that’s because you haven’t done X. Have you done X?”

          I’ll break that boredom with some fascinating activity X

          “She: Nope!”

          She’s in. I can take her now, but I’ll escalate here

          “Me: Because you’re cheap”

          Punctuate the first hahaha. So I have a call to action, she’ll play along, now Im messing up with her a little

          “She: (punches, happy)”

          She likes it

          “Me: Cheap and weak. You need more protein. Ouch”

          I double down now judging her strength.

          So I had this little activity X that I’ll invite her in, but hey she can’t just have me like that can she. She’s got to work it a little

          “Me: Now Im not going to take you”

          Fake wall for her

          “She: You’re mean”

          She’s happy

          “Me: Sometimes ;-)”

          Sex is going to be fun. Game is over, let’s escalate with the call to action

          “Me: So let’s meet on on thursday? I’ll take you to X”

          Again I ask a question but do it as a given, I break that fake rapport with the call to action that has been building. Stating the day has a high percent chance that she’ll be busy, but that’s fine, she’ll raincheck

          “She: Not sure if I can on thursday”

          That’s a wall, no raincheck, too bad!

          “Me: Well ping me when you know”

          Note how I dont change the day? I dont rearrange, don’t offer another activity. I offer a day, she ‘doesn’t now’, well nice meeting you girl!

          “She: What’s your number?”

          She what’s she’s doing?

          “Me: 1xx201
          Me: There
          She: mine 1xc001”

          “Me: That’s why you can’t afford travel you spent all your money on that phone”

          We’re best friends now

          “She: hahahaa”

          And sex is easy

          Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/11/2018 at 9:49 pm

            Masterful.

            Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/11/2018 at 9:45 pm

          No, no, no. It’s not about that place. It’s about the process and how it makes her happy and wet.

          Stacking (So you’re a traveler)
          Qualifying (cheap or posh)
          Rewarding
          Vibing (jungle story)
          Rapport (so what’s up) – grounding the meet in reality
          Break rapport (Because you’re cheap)
          Teasing,
          Bridge.
          Logistics and number close.

          This is the process. All the stages of the LDM are there.

          Executed effortlessly.

          Follow this to bang cute girls.

          Reply
24. Lucretius says:

    05/11/2018 at 10:00 pm

    @yohami

    Do you have another sample real-time interaction like the one on the bus?
    Anything that you can say from memory with a corresponding breakdown?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/11/2018 at 10:01 pm

      I have thousands, I’ll see if something else applies but it’s really always the same

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/12/2018 at 9:32 am

        I would expect it to be “roughly the same” all the time. It is the exposure to the conversation flow that I am looking for.

        Ironically, the above is the normal type of conversation flow (social) when I am not interested in the girl and just playing around in the conversation (minus a few points).
        Again, once I am looking for an outcome, it all falls apart again so have to adjust piece by piece rather than all at once.

        Reply
        • Robinhood says:

          05/12/2018 at 11:08 am

          Yup. Better to go one step at a time. I will post an interesting convo shortly to see how yohami sees that one..

          Reply
      • Robinhood says:

        05/12/2018 at 7:53 pm

        This is a girl i haven’t met. We attended the same course at different times. I found her in the course online group.
        After some study/work related chit chat..
        Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
        Her: ??
        Me: Place in ur pic
        Me: Looks cool
        Her: Italy
        Her: Thanks
        Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
        Her‬: Not really lol
        Me: Ahan
        Me: Come to my city in uk
        Her‬: Can’t
        Her: Lol
        Me: Dont be boring
        Her‬: Who on earth are you
        Me: Batman ?
        Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
        Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me
        Me: U seem very sensitive
        Her: I’m not sensitive
        Her: I have no idea who you are
        Her‬: And you don’t know me either
        Me: U can ask what u wana know
        Me: I like how u are so curious about me
        Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
        Me: Im awesome
        Her: Hahahaha

        Thoughts? What was done right? What could be better?

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/13/2018 at 6:41 pm

          Sup man. Before I do a breakdown, take a pass at your chat above and isolate these things:

          What are the walls / what is she setting obstacles / doing barriers to?
          What are the openings / what is she reacting positively to?
          Which lines are beta rapport?
          Which lines are cocky funny?

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/13/2018 at 7:03 pm

          Let me also give it a try to see if I have learned something:

          Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
          Her: ??
          Me: Place in ur pic
          Me: Looks cool
          Her: Italy
          Her: Thanks
          Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
          Her‬: Not really lol

          The above is rapport.
          Girl has opening on travel as she said ‘lol’. Guy should focus on where she been and state place himself. Something like:

          Guy : Where have you travelled apart from Italy?
          Guy : I was at [country x] with friends recently

          The above is rapport + break rapport (yohami definition)

          Me: Come to my city in uk
          Her‬: Can’t
          Her: Lol

          Wall from girl.
          Amused that random guy asking her to travel to his place

          Me: Dont be boring
          Her‬: Who on earth are you
          Me: Batman ?

          Another barrier from girl but funny (non-bland) response from guy

          Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
          Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me

          Another barrier from girl

          Me: U seem very sensitive
          Her: I’m not sensitive

          Guy know banging head against barrier

          Her: I have no idea who you are
          Her‬: And you don’t know me either

          Barrier from girl.
          Opening from girl where she says “you dont even know me”. Response from guy should be focused on getting to know her. Something like:

          Guy : Well … we can get to know each other ;)

          Me: U can ask what u wana know
          Me: I like how u are so curious about me

          Guy banging head against barrier

          Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
          Me: Im awesome
          Her: Hahahaha

          Guy makes smart move and finds the ‘hahahaha’ (cocky fun)

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/13/2018 at 7:16 pm

            To clarify this item:

            ”
            Opening from girl where she says “you dont even know me”. Response from guy should be focused on getting to know her. Something like:

            Guy : Well … we can get to know each other ;)
            ”

            The above line may not be well received at this point given the way the conversation had been going. Guy would need to bring the conversation back to ‘lighter fun stuff’ to get more ‘hahahah’ or ‘lol’ before being able to use this line.

            Reply
          • Robinhood says:

            05/13/2018 at 7:25 pm

            Hey Lucretius. Good effort. Let yohami break it down. Lets see how right he gets it cuz i have switched girl’s response in few places. He always analyzes after he knows the whole story. I will tell where i switched girl’s responses after his breakdown. Lets see how predictable the dance is

            Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/14/2018 at 6:47 am

            How would you change the initial rapport to something that is about her?

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/14/2018 at 8:03 am

              Or – how do you FLIRT instead of rapport?

              I can make a breakdown but this is a good example of why rapport is shit game

              Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/14/2018 at 4:04 pm

              I would say for rapport only:

              Guy : In your pic, what country are you visiting? Looks nice
              Girl : It is when I was in Italy.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 4:13 pm

                Revised:

                Guy : In your pic, what country are you visiting? Looks nice
                Girl : It is when I was in Italy. I always wanted to travel throughout Europe.

                Guy : You Jetsetter girl ;)
                Girl : hahahaha

            • Lucretius says:

              05/14/2018 at 4:10 pm

              For FLIRT, I would attempt the following:

              Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
              Girl : yes, it is in Venice. Was fantastic.

              Guy : Looks amazing.
              Guy : I can just imagine you and me taking a ride on the gondolas through the canals. I get to sit comfortably while you row ;)

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 4:15 pm

                Revised (change of words):

                Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
                Girl : yes, it is in Venice. Was fantastic.

                Guy : Looks amazing.
                Guy : I can just imagine you and me on the gondolas through the canals. I get to sit comfortably for the ride while you row ;)

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:13 pm

                The question is: why are you talking about italy? At all? Italy is not HER. Italy is a ‘third thing’ which you’re evaluating in a non-sexual manner.

              • Robinhood says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:25 pm

                Because she’s in italI in the picture she took. She likes that picture,that place, its a part of her. She hasn’t travelled much, maybe Italy is the only country she visited? Why she chose Italy? What did she like there? All of this can give insight into her likes/type/personality. All important information to get inside her.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/14/2018 at 6:28 pm

                I see your point and from racking my brains around, I cant think of another way to start the conversation.

                Interested to see how you would start it (incl. possible variations)

                This is a major development point for me as I always start conversations with girls indirectly (ie. 3rd thing) before moving to direct (ie. girl and me).

25. YOHAMI says:

    05/14/2018 at 7:02 pm

    Robin hood’s

    I’ll break this down and then put my “fixed game” at the bottom

    “Me: Which place? Seems crazyy
    Her: ??
    Me: Place in ur pic
    Me: Looks cool
    Her: Italy
    Her: Thanks
    Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..
    Her‬: Not really lol
    Me: Ahan
    Me: Come to my city in uk
    Her‬: Can’t
    Her: Lol
    Me: Dont be boring
    Her‬: Who on earth are you
    Me: Batman ?
    Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls
    Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me
    Me: U seem very sensitive
    Her: I’m not sensitive
    Her: I have no idea who you are
    Her‬: And you don’t know me either
    Me: U can ask what u wana know
    Me: I like how u are so curious about me
    Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?
    Me: Im awesome
    Her: Hahahaha”

    My breakdown

    “Me: Which place? Seems crazyy”

    This is shit game. Also it doesn’t make grammatical sense

    Why?

    When you ping her, make it about HER. If you already met her give her a nickname. If you don’t have a nickname, then just flirt. What is flirting?

    FLIRT: Display of nuanced sexual interest.

    So “Hey cutie” will do.

    The reason this is important is framing. You’re framing this in a man to woman relationship.

    Regardless – what will happen when you ping her, is she will go to your profile and check you out. All of the following conversation has to be seen through the lense of her attraction (or lack of thereof) towards you

    “Me: Place in ur pic
    Me: Looks cool
    Her: Italy
    Her: Thanks”

    You’re talking about a ‘third thing’ and not flirting, so you’re going for rapport, but not really.

    “Me: Hmm seems like u travel a lot..”

    This is ‘cold reading’ and would have work better as the opener. It’s better in that you’re talking about her. Still I don’t see where you’re going

    “Her‬: Not really lol”

    She also doesn’t know, time is ticking.

    “Me: Come to my city in uk”

    So this is a call to action. The issue is you haven’t gotten compliance, and you haven’t gotten compliance because you didn’t flirt. And the call to action is incomplete. Why do you want her to come to your city? what will you do with her there?

    “Her‬: Can’t
    Her: Lol”

    Walls and walls.

    “Me: Dont be boring”

    This is a valid neg for her wall but it’s misplaced. You haven’t offered her any ‘fun’ yet

    “Her‬: Who on earth are you
    Me: Batman ?”

    That’s brilliant

    “Me: So u always stay at home like good little girls”

    After the ‘batman’ you should have waited for her response, so you can escalate. Here you’re doubling down on the ‘neg’. But you have not offered any reason whatsoever to do anything remotely positive.

    No flirts, no arousal, no leading, and now insisting on negs: bottom guy tussle.

    “Her‬: Don’t talk to me like that you don’t even know me”

    Walls and walls.

    “Me: U seem very sensitive”

    More negs from you. What do you want to happen?

    “Her: I’m not sensitive”

    THIS IS AN OPENING. She made it about herself. So you neg her and tell her she’s insensitive, and now she’s justifying to you. Here you can reward and tell her that good, because you prefer sensitive girls

    “Her: have no idea who you are”

    THIS IS AN OPENING.

    “Me: U can ask what u wana know”

    Ridiculously waste of time. You haven’t flirted yet.

    “Me: I like how u are so curious about me”

    She is not curious about you

    “Her‬: Why would I wanna know more about you?”

    See? she’s not

    “Me: Im awesome”

    THIS is good.

    “Her: Hahahaha”

    THIS IS AN OPENING

    All in all, this convo is a disaster, jumping from line to line with no thread or leadership or flirting or really, no game at all. It’s like someone cut and pasted game lines and then shuffled them, there’s ZERO chance of fucking a girl, any girl, like this.

    Let’s fix this. First, let’s assume your profile pic shows a handsome / higher value confident guy, and that her profile picture shows her in a beautiful place and she’s a gorgeous girl.

    Here’s what a similar conversation should look like.

    Me: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
    Her: Hi, thanks!
    Her: Do I know you?
    Me: No, I go to class X and was browsing around the people who take the same course
    Me: What a bunch of nerds!
    Her: hahahah
    Me: Where’s that pic? looks like barcelona
    Her: It’s Italy
    Me: Lovely
    Her: Yeah I was there last summer
    Me: You look lovely too
    Her: Thanks (blushes)
    Me: When are you around in (City X)? I’ll take you out
    Her: hahaha I have never been there
    Me: How come? it’s a great place
    Her: dunno
    Her: My friend is always going there but I haven’t found the time
    Me: Well now you’ve got a reason to come
    Me: I’ll give you a tour
    Her: Really?
    Me: My tours are famous
    Her: Maybe I should go
    Me: Yep. I’ll make your first time count ;-)
    Her: hahaha
    Me: Gotta go, I’ll ping you later
    Her: Ok. Is X your name?
    Me: No. Im batman
    Her: What?
    Me: Joke
    Her: hahahah

    And sex is easy.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/14/2018 at 7:07 pm

      Another variations if you want to triangulate with the profile picture on the initial ping

      ==================

      Find what the picture says about her, then assume what you see is true, and tease with it.

      Me: nice picture
      Me: you look like a hippie ;-)

      Me: You must be very intelligent if you’re reading a book that thick
      Her: hahaha
      Me: What’s it about?

      Me: Nice pic
      Me: You have no compassion for the people who can’t afford vacations, do you

      Makes sense?

      Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/14/2018 at 7:27 pm

      While my opener was totally off following yohami explanation, the upside I found 1 of 2 openings and all the walls.

      Let me see if I can identify what is going on in Yohami revised chat:

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
      Her: Hi, thanks!

      The above is an opening directly about HER. There is also the flirt with the Hi ;)
      There is also validation of her by guy (from the thanks!)

      Frame is direction of man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Her: Do I know you?
      Me: No, I go to class X and was browsing around the people who take the same course
      Me: What a bunch of nerds!
      Her: hahahah

      Girl is now interested in finding out who is flirting with her so she asks questions.
      Guy responds with background information (I go to class X) and explains how he found her (ie. he is not a stalker)

      Guy makes judgement remark based on peoples photo (noted approach: Observation + Judgement)
      Girl likes judgement.

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Where’s that pic? looks like barcelona
      Her: It’s Italy
      Me: Lovely
      Her: Yeah I was there last summer

      Guy makes question + statement (yohami rapport + break rapport). Also use of other city shows that guy may also travel.
      Girl responds (ie. plays along)
      Guy rewards (lovely)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: You look lovely too
      Her: Thanks (blushes)

      Guy doubles down on reward as girl is continuing down the travel thread
      Girl likes it.

      Frame is further direction of man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: When are you around in (City X)? I’ll take you out
      Her: hahaha I have never been there

      Guy makes call to action
      Girl likes the call to action from hahahaha.

      Frame is clear that this is man / woman

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: How come? it’s a great place
      Her: dunno
      Her: My friend is always going there but I haven’t found the time

      Guy makes question + statement (yohami rapport + break rapport). It is about getting her over – logistics.
      Girl starts to explain herself (feels she now needs a reason for why not). Also provides a wall for guy (havent found the time)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Well now you’ve got a reason to come
      Me: I’ll give you a tour
      Her: Really?
      Me: My tours are famous
      Her: Maybe I should go

      Guy ignores wall and gives reason for her to come – rationalisation (setup of new thread)
      Girl surprised that guy will give girl tour (since ‘hahahaha’ already established and she explaining herself, she would like it).
      Guy double down on tour (ie. giving girl an overt reason to come to city X)
      Girl now accepting overt reason

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Yep. I’ll make your first time count ;-)
      Her: hahaha

      Guy provides sexual connotations (carrying on man/woman frame).
      Girl does hahahaha (consciously / subsconsciously knows what is going on)

      [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      Me: Gotta go, I’ll ping you later
      Her: Ok. Is X your name?
      Me: No. Im batman
      Her: What?
      Me: Joke
      Her: hahahah

      Guy gives time constraint to leave (false or true).
      Girl sufficiently interested that she wants to know who he is.
      Guy gives cocky / funny answer as joke
      Girl doesnt know
      Guy says joke
      Girl thinking what a funny guy

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/14/2018 at 7:38 pm

        Yep

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/14/2018 at 7:41 pm

          Thank you for confirming the breakdown.

          Having seen two of them, I am starting to get an initial feel for how the conversations should be going.

          Do you have any other chats (good + bad) that I can try my hand at breaking down? Or even if you put up some ‘puzzles’ for readers to solve with what direction things should take.

          Overall, i need to get working through these type of ‘exercises’ to get the vibe / feel for how the conversation should be going.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/15/2018 at 4:57 am

            There’s another post not long ago with hundreds of comments and I made a few breakdowns there. Im likely going to write a book / set a blog for this kind of stuff ‘soon’

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/15/2018 at 5:59 am

              If you referring to BlueValentine text discussions, I already been through all of those (virign mormon thread). Those are the dissecting what is wrong in his text discussions. What I am looking for is the specific points and how they should be approached. Let me think on this for a few hours and make a specific post on it later today.

              Likely see the polish this weekend, so trying to see if I can get the conversation ‘style’ more practiced before then so ‘I am not a robot’.

              Thanks again for all the help thus far.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/15/2018 at 6:08 am

                There’s one with some breakdowns and ‘fixed chats’ like I did above for Pancake mouse and other guys, not sure which message thread was that in though

                And no problem – writing this stuff down helps me too so it’s win win

      • Robinhood says:

        05/15/2018 at 6:17 am

        @yohami..
        Reopened her with..
        Me: Hey insensitive girl
        Her: Lol
        Me: i like the scenery in this photo.. and ur fluffy hair ?
        Her: LOLL
        My hair is wavy not fluffy
        And it’s from the salt in the sea

        Any idea how to go about it from here? This one seems keen but needs to be lead properly.

        In the last chat i just switched one response at the end. She didn’t respond hahhaa go my I’m aaesawe text. After an hour she replied who told u that. 40 minutes after that.. ‘exactly i didn’t think u had an answer for that. I replied after about 8 hours at night.. ‘Geez. Learn some patience’. She sent ??? next day.

        Reply
        • Robinhood says:

          05/15/2018 at 8:12 am

          Continued..

          Her: LOLL
          My hair is wavy not fluffy
          And it’s from the salt in the sea
          Me: they look lovely
          Her: Thank you
          Me: How did u like it at course?
          Her: Did you finish your exams ?
          Me: Yea I’m done with everything
          Her: it was good
          Her: what do you think?
          Me: Most of the people there are so lame and nerdy ?
          Her: why do you think that?
          Me: Most are just into books. No fun
          Me: Although i found some fun people
          Me: sent her a picture of me having some fun with friends there

          I think she didn’t like my judgement on the course students. Why? Does it lead her to believe i didn’t have a good time there?

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/16/2018 at 6:41 am

            It always surprises me how girls endure bad game – that’s how much they crave it!

            ======================

            “Me: Hey insensitive girl”

            Good one

            The main thing here, is WHY ARE YOU CONTACTING HER?

            Because you want to fuck her, right?

            So you have to frame this as man to woman, flirt, arouse her, escalate, and take her out.

            So after you sed “hey insensitive girl” your roadmap should be “blah blah swing swing ping ping” arouse her, then when she’s in compliance you “let’s do activity X” and escalate things to meet.

            Instead you’re asking a bunch of nonsense

            “Me: i like the scenery in this photo.. and ur fluffy hair ?”

            No one gives a fuck about your judgement of a ‘third thing’ unless it speaks of your value as a man

            The fluffy hair, is that a flirt, or a neg? are you trying to arouse her, or piss her off? both are valid but you need to know which one it is, and it needs to be overt

            “Her: LOLL”

            Do you see how ANYTHING that you do pointing at HER has a strong reaction? all things that address her are openings.

            “My hair is wavy not fluffy
            And it’s from the salt in the sea”

            She thought it was a neg, so she validates herself to you. This is good.

            “Me: they look lovely
            Her: Thank you”

            There, that’s better

            So what are you doing?

            “Me: How did u like it at course?”

            Why do you care if she liked it at the course? how are you going to tie this in to take her out?

            “Her: Did you finish your exams ?
            Me: Yea I’m done with everything
            Her: it was good
            Her: what do you think?”

            See? rapport bullshit

            “Me: Most of the people here are so lame and nerdy ?”

            Passing judgement – this is fine. The exception would be if this girl is also ‘nerdy’ in which case you are negging her here. What is the case?

            “Her: why do you think that?”

            WHO THE FUCK CARES where are you going with this man :-) she also doesn’t care, she’s just doing rapport. But here you could escalate and do a story that shows how you are not boring and why she should be with you

            “Me: Most are just into books. No fun
            Me: Although i found some fun people
            Me: sent her a picture of me having some fun with friends there”

            That kind of does it. A better thing would be a story, catered to her.

            If she a party girl? then:

            Me: I organized an escape to Las Vegas and most got too drunk and passed out, they have no backbone!

            If she a nerdy girl? then:

            Me: We went to the planetarium and a bunch of them fell aslept – my groups was full of accountants!

            Whatever.

            Ping, arouse, get compliance / arousal, escalate, take her out

            Reply
            • Robinhood says:

              05/16/2018 at 1:54 pm

              Hey. Search my name in this post, left few responses for you but they just came out of moderation.

              Scenery is not a third thing. Its related to her. Its in her photo she put up, and scenery is right in front of her fucking eyes.

              I care about her opinion about the course as that will give me insight into her personality and help me to bang her.
              And its a ramp to pass my judgement on the course, whether she liked it or not. If she liked it, my judgement will be messing with her boundaries.

              And she says why do you think that as opposed to your prediction earlier that she will laugh and aroused by this judgement lol

              And how do you plan to find out if shes nerdy or a part girl without going for rapport?

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 5:57 pm

                Yes the scenery is a ‘third thing’, it’s not her

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 5:59 pm

                “And how do you plan to find out if shes nerdy or a part girl without going for rapport?”

                Everything a girl does with her appearance and says out loud and subcommunicates is a BROADCAST of both what type of girl she is, and what kind of men she finds attractive.

                Google “nerdy girl” and then “party girl”, see if there’s much overlap

            • Robinhood says:

              05/16/2018 at 2:53 pm

              Continued convo..
              In response to my photo she says..

              Her‬: I’ve never seen you around
              Me: U should have looked harder for me (u missed all the fun girl. But she doesn’t respond to this swing. She wants comfort and rapport)
              Me: I was there in month and then in month
              Her: I was there end of month too
              Me: Show urself. Maybe i have seen u
              Her‬: Show myself?
              Me: Yea send me ur photo
              Her‬: Why on earth would I do that
              Me: Dont be shy (putting her in a box/cold read)
              Her‬: Ew
              ‬ I’m not
              ‬ I don’t know you
              Me: So ur a bold girl
              Her‬: Why
              Me: U said you are not shy lol
              Her‬: If I knew you ya
              But I don’t :) (Opening for this girl is rapport and comfort. She wants to know me to fuck me)
              Me: Of course u do
              Her‬: How
              Her‬: asks me something about my job
              Me: Im name. We went to same course around same time. Thats fate ? (giving her the feel of knowing me by highlighting commonalities and messing with her some with that fate bit)
              Me: Yea i have done job stuff she asked
              Her‬: Yeah and hundreds of other people went to the same course also
              Her‬: Lol (she likes the ridiculousness of it)
              Her‬: Did you get a job?
              Me: And how many of them u talk to ? (our connection is special ;)
              Her‬: Talk to as friends?
              Me: Nope
              Me: As man to woman
              Her‬: None (at this point my instinct was to hammer it down with ‘exactly’ but i thought she got the point. Give her some comfort stuff so she can rationalize she knows me.
              Me: Yea i got a job in city
              Me: Sorting some paperwork about it
              Her: That’s nice congratulations
              Which company?
              Her‬: And what department?

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/16/2018 at 4:38 pm

                @yohami
                Let me try to break this down similar to before and see where things stand:

                [~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Her‬: I’ve never seen you around
                Me: U should have looked harder for me (u missed all the fun girl. But she doesn’t respond to this swing. She wants comfort and rapport)
                Me: I was there in month and then in month
                Her: I was there end of month too

                Girl puts up wall / trap for guy to respond to
                Guy falls in trap and starts to explain himself and state all the points where guy was present but girl could not see (in hopes to strike a memory?)
                Girl just going along to close trap.

                Guy could of switched to something humours to break the trap and go into new new direction.

                [~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Show urself. Maybe i have seen u
                Her‬: Show myself?
                Me: Yea send me ur photo
                Her‬: Why on earth would I do that
                Me: Dont be shy (putting her in a box/cold read)
                Her‬: Ew
                ‬ I’m not
                ‬ I don’t know you

                Guy demanding action. Girl thinks WTF?! No compliance from girl.
                Guy now forced to followup (photo) and makes another demand. Girl puts up wall – Still no compliance from girl.
                Guy triples down on request (banging head against wall). Girl starting to have second thoughts (ew) about continuing discussion.

                Difficult to see recovery here. Girl not knowing guy does not seem like OPENING given conversation thread thus far. Seems more like WALL / OPENING depending on next exchange.

                [~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: So ur a bold girl
                Her‬: Why
                Me: U said you are not shy lol
                Her‬: If I knew you ya
                But I don’t :) (Opening for this girl is rapport and comfort. She wants to know me to fuck me)
                Me: Of course u do
                Her‬: How
                Her‬: asks me something about my job

                Guy makes statement about girl (avoiding “I dont know you” WALL).
                Girl still apprehensive on answering – low investment response but curious (this is OPENING).
                Guy doubles down pointing to girl previous response (OPENING missed).
                Girl makes statement about her (ie. was showing there was an OPENING) but WALL still there.
                Guy walks into WALL and now seeks to justify why girl knows guy.

                The above segment shows girl moving away creating a gap and guy is now chasing to close the gap.

                [~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Im name. We went to same course around same time. Thats fate ? (giving her the feel of knowing me by highlighting commonalities and messing with her some with that fate bit)
                Me: Yea i have done job stuff she asked
                Her‬: Yeah and hundreds of other people went to the same course also
                Her‬: Lol (she likes the ridiculousness of it)
                Her‬: Did you get a job?

                Guy is trying to rationalize previous statements. The use of fate here seems weird and disjointed (cannot see girl making a connection here).
                Girl dismisses guy information and reasons (ie. why should I have remembered you?).

                Note that girl does not give guy her name (ie. lack of sexual interest from girl).

                Girl switching to asexual rapport (ie. she trying to see if guy can be useful to her asexually)

                [~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: And how many of them u talk to ? (our connection is special ;)
                Her‬: Talk to as friends?
                Me: Nope
                Me: As man to woman
                Her‬: None (at this point my instinct was to hammer it down with ‘exactly’ but i thought she got the point. Give her some comfort stuff so she can rationalize she knows me.

                Guy tries to make ‘connection seem like magic’ (ie. girl special to guy; ie. guy showing low value here by rationalizing).
                Girl puts up wall.
                Guy bangs head into wall by responding directly to it.
                Use of words ‘as man to woman’ caused major setback for guy as it is overt. Top guy would speak in inuendo (ie. covertly)

                Girl sees guy banging head into wall and closes ‘wall loop’

                Complete frame mismatch is seen in the above.

                [~~ Segment 6 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

                Me: Yea i got a job in city
                Me: Sorting some paperwork about it
                Her: That’s nice congratulations
                Which company?
                Her‬: And what department?

                Guy continues with girl asexual rapport therefore falling into frame of girl.
                Girl has locked in asexual rapport frame (ie. we only going to be friends and you going to be useful to me for my work life, nothing else).

                Attraction from girl is dead.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 6:03 pm

                That’s the wrong kind of rapport, talking about jobs and crap. It’s funny that she’s asking the questions, but usually this ends in a sad place

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 6:06 pm

                Lucretius, all on point – great read

              • Lucretius says:

                05/16/2018 at 9:21 pm

                @yohami:
                Can you provide correction on robinhood latest chat?
                I am looking for more correct responses to analyse for structure/threads

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/16/2018 at 10:16 pm

                It’s too offrails to be corrected. He should send a dick pick and consider that lead dead.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/17/2018 at 4:07 pm

                @yohami
                How would you address this point?
                What would be your response?

                Her‬: I’ve never seen you around

                This feels strongly like an answer that baits the guy to respond further and it forces the guy into a corner.

26. Lucretius says:

    05/15/2018 at 5:30 pm

    I have two points and will make two separate posts to organise the response.

    The first is around the opening and talking ABOUT THE GIRL instead of a 3rd thing.

    If I look back at my responses, I have (always) opened with a third thing and then connect that to the girl but in reading yohami responses, the opening must be about the girl and then connecting a 3rd thing as support (if required) for the thing about the girl

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Example where opening is about 3rd thing (INCORRECT):

    [Line 1] Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 2] Guy: Are you wearing the latest spring fashion for 2018?
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?

    In all the above, the 3rd thing is something or other but the focus of the line whereas HER is only incidental to the 3rd thing ([Line 1] Italy, [Line 2] her clothes, [Line 3] her facial expression)

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Example where opening is about her (CORRECT)

    [Line 1] Guy: Hi ;-) I like your profile pic a lot
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 2] Guy: nice picture. You look like a hippie ;-)
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 3] Guy: You must be very intelligent if you’re reading a book that thick
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 4] Guy: Nice pic. You have no compassion for the people who can’t afford vacations, do you
    ~~ or ~~
    [Line 5] Guy: So you a traveler, uh?
    ~~or~~
    [Line 6] Guy: Hey posh girl ;)
    ~~or~~
    [Line 7] Guy: Hey cutie ;)

    In all the above, the focus is on the girl first ([Line 1] her looks – body, [Line 2] her looks – dress, [Line 3] her attributes – intelligence, [Line 4 / 5] her lifestyle, [Line 6] her personality caricature, [Line 7] her looks – body) and then using supporting items if applicable (ie. clothes, book, travel locations, props).

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    While on the metro today a girl sat next to me and while I was replaying the above contrast in my mind from the previous days (not in as much detail but I had the general sense of contrast), I didnt say anything because my initial reaction was to talk about her style (3rd thing) and then to try to move it back to her. So for the time that she was sitting next to me (3-4min) I was trying to reconstruct the sentence in my mind (and therefore the correct conversational frame) and it showed me that something is wrong in how I have been approaching the opening point and likely the conversation in general.

    The point of this post, is to try to understand the overall approach by yohami in talking about the girl – in other words, I am trying to work out a structure/format to how the opening should go.

    From what I can see on the above, the following are formats in CORRECT lines:
    [Line 1] = FLIRT + Compliment HER (not 3rd thing)
    [Line 2] = Observation + Judgement HER (teasing)
    [Line 3] = Observation + Teasing HER
    [Line 4] = Observation + Teasing HER
    [Line 5] = (Silent) Observation + Challenge HER
    [Line 6] = FLIRT + Nickname HER (personality not current emotional state or category)
    [Line 7] = FLIRT + Validation HER (body)

    @yohami: What other lines are appropriate for the opening can you think of? Just the words as you would speak them such that I can then break them down into ‘structure/format’

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 7:47 am

      Pay attention to the principles and less to the format. The principles will tell you the structure and format.

      The principle is you’re doing a Ping

      Ping: a small request of attention. You can be pinging the whole girl, or part of the girl.

      So when you ping her with the opener, you’re going from point A, and leading towards point B. The point A is “hi, Im a man, I find you attractive, I may want to fuck you”, and point B is “Let’s make that happen”

      That’s the structure.

      Now zoom in into the initial ping, or the opener.

      The frame is that you’re a high value man, so you’re passing judgement. Basically you will be giving positive or negative judgement.

      Aka, you’re giving her a compliment, or giving her a neg. All framed into a “flirt”, or a nuanced signal of sexual interest.

      And you need to LAND this ping, it must be TRUE. Example if she’s nerdy and you call her ‘slut’ it won’t land, if she’s local and you call her ‘traveler’ it won’t land. If she’s shy and you call her ‘party animal’ it won’t land – with the exception of when you’re doing these with humor or as negs, then you can get away with them.

      Speaking of which this is how humor really works.

      If you have a nerdy girl and you call her a “sexy party girl” with a hint of humor and a smirk on your face, that’s a friendly neg and she’ll like it. And if she’s an actual sexy party girl, then you’re rewarding her and she’ll also like it, plus like your cocky face.

      So always add cocky / fun. It sets the proper frame.

      Now let’s look into your lines

      ========================================

      “[Line 1] Guy : On your pic, is that you in Italy?”

      The first part is redundant so this is better

      “Guy: is that you in Italy? (pointing at picture if you’re in person)”

      That can work if you’re going somewhere. Are you preparing a story about your travel? is this meaningful to you in any way? Are you going to tell a story of how you were raised in Italy and had to escape because the italian mob wanted to take your dick off after you banged all the virgins? where are you going? are you going to say you love italian chicks? girls who travel? what’s your angle?

      But it can work. As long as you’re going somewhere and not just doing rapport.

      ========================================

      “[Line 2] Guy: Are you wearing the latest spring fashion for 2018?”

      That can work if you’re negging her and if she has a sense of humor.

      If she wearing a plastic bag? will she take a joke? the line above is great.

      But if you are actually initiating a conversation about the fashion for 2018 you’re on the wrong lane.

      ====================

      [Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?

      This is the shittiest line of them all and fails on all aspects.

      Why?

      First – what you’re saying must be true, or must be a neg.

      For it to resonate, she had to actually had a blank / dreamy expression, and had to be thinking of sex. So you’re leaving out 99.9% of all possible scenarios.

      If she actually had a sexual expression, then just actually call her on it

      Me: You look like a troublemaker ;-)
      Her: hahahah why?
      Me: You have that expression on you… who knows what you’re thinking
      Her: hahaha
      Me: you’re a naughty girl aren’t you

      So the above – this will only work with the girl who is actually naughty etc. It’s dead on specific like with the ‘are you a traveler’, so we’re back, in structure, to this format:

      Me: You look like a [ category ] ;-)

      But the line you presented is more wrong than this so I want to ask what the fuck it is, why you think it’s good, or where it came from

      “[Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?”

      Note

      It doesn’t frame it as man to woman

      It doesn’t frame you as high value man passing judgement

      It’s not flirting

      It’s a question, which means, without the things above, that it’s going for pure rapport

      Since it’s rapport and not flirting, when what it stands about it is that you are paying attention. So you have a guy paying attention to a girls face, and trying to get into her thoughts

      This is CREPPY AS FUCK

      And now guy wants her to come talk to him about this non-sexual thoughts that she may or not be having. Because he cares.

      This goes in line with actually talking about her fashion sense. What the fuck is this man.

      Talk to her vagina

      Why? because you want to fuck her

      Don’t you?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 5:11 pm

        Succinct answer.

        For the various lines, I was looking to contrast them with the lines you used from this thread. there was no other specific reason for these three lines.

        For [Line 1], I can see the use of a 3rd thing can work if it is leading somewhere such as in a funny story or DHV.

        For [Line 2], this was actually a setup line that got the girl to answer and was then followed up with a further joke (something similar to tropics girl from before). It was nothing to really be about the girls fashion.

        For [Line 3], somehow this line developed from a few uses as a way to indirectly start a conversation however I understand the problems with it. The concept was the structure as you mentioned with follow on:

        Guy : You look like a [ category ] ;-)

        On the point of ‘structure/format’, it is more todo with my speech. The principles are intellectually understood but need to get use to saying things in the ‘correct way’. An example of this is where I find myself saying [question + statement] in my normal day to day speech over the past 1.5 weeks at the office and socially.

        If the focus is talking to a girl, by default I would be doing [rapport + break rapport] without consciously thinking about it.

        Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 7:06 pm

        “Talk to her vagina”

        This sums up the overall direction of all interactions that should be going on between guy + girl. From this, i should be able to work out some ideas based on whatever contextual information I can get from the girl.

        Reply
27. Lucretius says:

    05/15/2018 at 6:13 pm

    The second point is around openings from the girl.

    In the robinhood original text chat, the following was said:

    ”
    “Her: I’m not sensitive”

    THIS IS AN OPENING. She made it about herself. So you neg her and tell her she’s insensitive, and now she’s justifying to you. Here you can reward and tell her that good, because you prefer sensitive girls

    “Her: have no idea who you are”

    THIS IS AN OPENING.
    ”

    While I understand that the above would be considered an opening because it is now about girl, I would like to understand the working mechanics of it and also what the likely responses could be.

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    If I generalize the response type, it comes as:

    [Line 1] Girl : I am [attribute of state]
    ~~or~~
    [Line 2] Girl : I am not [attribute of state]

    In the above the following can be expanded:
    – [attribute of state] can be happy / sad / excited / bored / angry / lazy / tired / energetic / etc

    I would also think that for [Line 2] this would be a boundary (wall) where the girl is saying the negative of something (ie. I am not sensitive, I am not boring, I am not sad). The guy here cannot keep going down this direction because it would be addressing the wall however the yohami response would be to ‘acknowledge it’ by guy saying “Good, I dont prefer sensitive girls” – Not sure if there is a typo in ‘senstive vs not sensitive’.

    The question #1 is how should the guy address a response of type [Line 2] and make it work as an OPENING?

    The question #2 is how should the guy address a response of type [Line 1] if slanted to the positive (ie. I am excited) and if slanted to the negative (ie. I am so lazy). How can this be used as an OPENING?

    The question #3 is in the above context, does the yohami term OPENING mean a conversation thread to continue further or something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    For clarity, the OPENING from ‘hahahahaha’ is understood as this is an arousal point and therefore the same conversation thread should be continued a little more (limit = Triple down).

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 7:20 am

      These are openings because everything that is about HER is an opening, positive and negative.

      The girl will either put a wall and push you away, or “reveal who she is” which is just a roadmap to having sex with you.

      “Her: I’m not sensitive”

      That means she places value in being strong. So here you can stomp a little in her sensitiveness and see if it’s for real

      “Her: have no idea who you are”

      That means she engages better with people she knows than with strangers, or “first I have to get to know you, then I can fuck you”, so she’ll need more rapport of social preselection

      Now, the specifics depend completely on the girl.

      Is this a girl you can tell is actually EMOTIONAL and is just pretending she’s not sensitive but she is? is she a cry baby? or is she tough? you can go into it by pinging her sensitivity, or pinging her toughness, which do you neg, which do you reward? it goes back to WHO IS SHE. Then, which kind of guy she likes? does she likes a tough guy, a sensitive guy? does she have a sense of humor?

      All these questions is your ‘screening’, finding the answers is why you’re talking to her.

      ===================

      Let’s say she’s actually sensitive, is goofy, and a little shy

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: Not sensitive uh
      Her: No!
      Me: Not even a little little???
      Her: No…
      Me: So what you can watch Leonardo Dicaprio drowning and you feel NOTHING, man what a cold heart
      Her: hahaha
      Me: So you stand there and Dicaprio is there Rose Rose Rose! and you’re there just doing your nails or whatever “shut up leo Im busy!”
      Her: hahahahaah
      Me: You’re a TRUE gem aren’t you
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Im going to make sure not to take you to the Titanic
      Her: hahaha

      Now, do the above with a girl who is actually tough / masculine and without a sense of humor, or with a girl that is more on the sexual and less on the goofy, and the above will FALL FLAT

      It’s ‘know who you’re talking to’

      =================

      So what would work on a girl who is tough? neg her

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: Too bad, I like girls who can feel things

      That will piss her off, which is fine as ‘pissed off’ is an intrinsic part of her personality. Also will trigger the ‘who the fuck are you’ which addresses the other opening she gave you

      =================

      So what would work on a girl who is super sexual?

      Her: I’m not sensitive
      Me: That’s because you haven’t found the right man

      ================

      WHO IS SHE?

      Makes sense?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/16/2018 at 7:24 am

        What about a girl who is truly super sexual and direct? aka, the ones with a ton of slut / aesthetic production on them

        Her: I’m not sensitive
        Me: So you don’t orgasm either

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 9:42 am

      This line is so shit I keep finding faults on it

      “[Line 3] Guy: You had this blank / dreamy expression on your face, what guilty thoughts were you thinking?”

      The first part of it ‘you had this expression’

      It not only signals that ‘you care’ but it’s also giving you an excuse to talk to her.

      You don’t need an excuse to talk to her.

      Me: Hi ;-) I really like your profile picture

      Is MAGNITUDES STRONGER than

      Me: I was browsing the pictures of the people who went to my course and I saw yours
      Me: I really like your picture

      =========

      The first one is a man, the second one is a creep.

      Why?

      Because THE MAN doesn’t need an excuse to talk to her. The reason he’s talking to her, is he likes her.

      So here “you had this expression on your face” means that you’re giving an excuse to talk to her, which is NOT that you find her attractive, but that you’re noticing something else.

      You don’t need excuses to talk to her.

      Talk to her.

      And make it about her. Then about you and her.

      She has a blank stare and looks bored? Go for it

      ===============

      (girl looks bored)

      Me: Bored uh?
      Her: Yes
      Me: Cues are the worst. I’d like to send everyone here to jail
      Her: Haha why?
      Me: They are wasting my time!
      Her: yeah..
      Me: That cashier has no clue of what she’s doing
      Her: blah blah blah
      Me: Let’s do something. You distract people and Im going to pull that fire alarm
      Her: what?
      Me: Yeah dance or sign or something. Use your talents
      Her: haha
      Me: Just don’t get naked
      Me: Scratch that just get naked
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Anyway, what are you here for?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/16/2018 at 5:23 pm

        Not to expand on [Line 3] – it would be super weird if used online.

        This is interesting:

        [Line 8] Me: Cues are the worst. I’d like to send everyone here to jail

        It breaks into a ‘structure/format’ of:

        [Line 8] = Judgement + Statement of Action (yohami ramp)

        Reply
28. Choad says:

    05/15/2018 at 6:48 pm

    Been in the archives all week reading Yohami + Nash exchanges, taking notes, and it’s been educating. I’m taking a break cus I have one question

    Yohami, what’s your advice for a guy who runs out of things to say in conversation with girls?

    Nash, I’d be grateful if you told me your secret too, as it is apparent you’re a master of conversation on dates (although I’ve just read posts in the archives from 2016 where your flaw was talking instead of doing and Yohami was letting you have it), still I’d like if you told me how you’re able to keep conversation going with girls.

    I saw a RSD Tyler video where he tried to teach it but managed not to say anything workable in the 1hr+ long clip.

    Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/15/2018 at 9:53 pm

      reading Yohami + Nash exchanges, taking notes, and it’s been educating.

      Yes. For me too.

      Nash, I’d be grateful if you told me your secret too, as it is apparent you’re a master of conversation on dates
      if you told me how you’re able to keep conversation going with girls.

      This is a really tricky thing… a it’s not an easy answer. I’d say it’s related to INNER GAME and EXPERIENCE.

      Experience… because you probably don’t know yourself that well (not in the context of women), and you don’t know girls that well (not yet), and you don’t know the you+girl puzzle very well. So… you need a lot more experience… and then I bet you’ll have no trouble keeping conversation going, and your questions will be of a different nature.

      I know that’s not helpful… but give that some thought. Have 20 more dates… and see if this is still an issue. I predict it will not be.

      INNER GAME… is a factor as you likely are trying to “ask the right questions” or “say the right things.” As your experience gets better, and you clean up your inner game (which is also a mysterious process)… you will be interested in different parts of yourself and the girls. And when you’re there… you’ll talk about those things… BECAUSE THEY INTEREST YOU.

      ………..

      For now:

      In SET, during an approach… I recommend TALK ABOUT HER LOGISTICS. At least some. Make that the framework of your approach. And then… spin off the framework based on what naturally comes up, or things she adds, or areas that help the seduction. In the short term… focusing on LOGISTICS (where do you live? How often are you here? Oh you’re traveling, how long will you be here? Who are you traveling with? Do you live alone? Why do you come to the city?) WILL HELP THE SEDUCTION.

      This ^ is not sexy shit, so don’t be a robot about it… BUT if she is leaving tonight… that would be good to know. If she is in town for 3 days… it’s helpful to know that, that would change your plan. if she lives with her BF… good to know. Mix this with CHARM… and you’re making good use of your time.

      On DATES… At first, I am doing things to make her comfortable. That’s point one. Then… “what would help the seduction?” So now, I’d switch to “psychological logistics.” For me… I spend an awful lot of time talking about masc/fem… because that helps me in the seduction. I explain that I like that topic. And I pace/lead how fem she is back to her. And I role play what good masc/fem looks like. And I model masculinity for her. And I watch her reactions. And I pace/lead her reactions back to her. And we heat up… and it’s on. I bet I do this more than most guys.

      But notice how what I am talking about HELPS THE SEDUCTION… that is the guideline. You could do all this by only talking about movies… or song lyrics… or great leaders in history… anything THAT INTERESTS YOU. And then point to aspects that help the seduction.

      Again… I mix in more “normal stuff” (can you cook? What would you cook me if you wanted to impress me?). Charm, normal… and then… move it along toward sex.

      Again… I’m not a robot about this. I do it BECAUSE IT INTERESTS ME and because it helps MOVE THE SEDUCTION ALONG. I think I am a little unique in that I do so much of this… but this is what I do.

      I also do normal things… like ask who her best friend is. What would her best friend say about her? Etc. All this is “psychological logistics.” I am making up that term, but that’s not a bad way to say it.

      ………

      RECAP:
      — Talk about WHAT IS INTERESTING TO YOU (sex/relationship… if that’s true for you)
      — Talk about things that MOVE THE SEDUCTION FWD (get to know her, get her to trust you)

      Fucking be real, man. The more “pure technique” you’re doing, the worse the date.

      I could do a whole 10k words on this, but… ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO HER? Are you talking about what you see?? That’s one way to be real. ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF? Are you talking about how you feel… in a way that moves the seduction along? THIS… is a way to stay REAL.

      I know we all need experience in the beginning… but if you’re not “you,” the date will suck, and she won’t see you again. Don’t hammer on technique. Be a PARTNER to the girl on the date, and LEAD HER (you’re the “super partner”).

      I hope that helps.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/16/2018 at 6:44 am

        Yeah!

        Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/15/2018 at 9:55 pm

      I saw a RSD Tyler video where he tried to teach it but managed not to say anything workable in the 1hr+ long clip.

      Yep. : ]

      I just did 1000 words… not sure I gave you anything usable either.

      BUT… I gave you a very high-quality response.

      Read what I wrote… go on 3 dates. Read it again. Go on three more dates. Read it again. See if you can FEEL IT on the dates.

      This is how Yohami’s game seeped into my game and I started to get better.

      It took me about 5 dates to see/get/implement something Yohami was teaching me. It’s like that.

      Reply
      • Factory says:

        05/16/2018 at 12:18 am

        This is a great set of tips Nash – well written and easy to apply.

        “Paying attention” is one of the best and Yohami stresses this. I’ll add – applying to EVERYTHING while out, PRIOR to approach also – being observant / aware. Great for picking up minor IOIs you might normally miss.

        On a fun side note, and whilst “paying attention” to goings on in the street. On my lunch break yesterday, I noticed my first fellow gamer (I presume). It appeared to be close to the opener as I noticed the girl blushing as I passed (it’s what caught my attention). I walked on and looked back intrigued by what I’d just saw. They were still talking so I decided to turn back and walk past again to confirm my thoughts. As I walked past again she had “his” phone and handed it back to him…

        Number close!

        Viva la daygame, as you’d say :-)

        Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/16/2018 at 6:49 am

      “what’s your advice for a guy who runs out of things to say in conversation with girls?”

      That means you’re trying to impress her.

      But you’re not supposed to be ‘saying things’, you’re supposed to be ‘engaging with her’, or, say things, tell stories that will make her react, then you pay attention to her reactions and take it somewhere else.

      There’s this book “how to make friends and influence people” by dale carniege that has a nice blueprint for having conversations

      The succint is this:

      Don’t ask questions that can be answered with yes or no
      When you answer a question, tell a story instead of doing yes / no. Give MORE information than you’re supposed to

      And to add game on it:

      Make sure to pass judgement, make funny statements, make things about HER, and YOU, and about the both of you, do roleplay, etc. Engage with her.

      And lead towards sex.

      Focus on her arousal level. Do ‘more of what works’ with her.

      Reply
29. Choad says:

    05/16/2018 at 7:27 am

    I’m not sure Nash and Yohami and other contributors are aware of how *game changing this blog is. Awesome work for setting it all up, Nash.

    I’ve now taken notes and will work on them. I’m thankful for the responses

    Reply
    • Nash says:

      05/16/2018 at 9:13 pm

      Yeah… I think a lot of us get that we are having an atypical conversation here. In large part… as Yohami is brining atypically strong insight… and I put myself on the sacrificial altar and Yohami carves me up as an opportunity to teach us all.

      It’s a good deal… I certainly have learned a lot.

      And we have good community here. Smart guys, low-ego, personal stories.

      Keep coming back. Make comments. You’ve got the right vibe.

      And go talk to girls!

      Reply
30. YOHAMI says:

    05/17/2018 at 5:16 pm

    Lucretius,

    “Her‬: I’ve never seen you around”

    Me: That’s weird
    Me: blah blah

    Take it in another direction

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/17/2018 at 5:21 pm

      I knew it has to move in another direction but wasnt sure how.
      Looks to be in structure:

      
      [Line 9a] Guy : Remark on oddity (that weird / funny/ strange/ odd)
      [Line 9b] Guy : SNIP + STACK in new direction
      

      Reply
31. Lucretius says:

    05/17/2018 at 5:47 pm

    @yohami
    In need of more practice, I sent an online message to a girl that would likely attend a drink event over the coming weekend.
    Be good if you could evaluate below exchange and provide some pointers where applicable.

    Background:
    I had already spoken to this girl in person 3x before (just general chit chat – total time 1.5h) and her ‘calling card’ was really in being a troublemaker where she would say things like ‘And meet my friend, who trains dogs and chickens professionally’ all with a straight face to see how long she can string a guy with this on-the-fly made up story. First time we met, she opened me (I was with other girls) but I caught on quickly and there was a bit of a laugh between us. In previous in person discussions (before reading yohami), I would say I was 66% bottom guy with 33% top guy. In the chat below (total exchange over 1 hour), I decided to put what I have learnt thus far to the test and this is the result.

    The Message Exchange:
    [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)
    [Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)
    [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)
    [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you
    [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?
    [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?
    [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
    [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …
    [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)
    [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)
    [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?
    [Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)
    [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].
    [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?
    [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is
    [Line 16] Me : I am [Country of parents] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].
    [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you [Country A] or [Country B]?
    [Line 18] Me : [Continent].
    [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)
    [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me
    [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))

    The Message Breakdown:

    [~~~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)
    [Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)

    [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)
    [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you
    

    On line 1, I am using the nickname troublemaker as this fits for her and also the wink smilie to flirt (man/woman frame).
    On line 2, She responds well as she goes along with it and returns smilie. she accepting frame.
    On line 3, I reward with haha and add ‘only the fun kind wink‘ so she knows what I am talking about
    On line 4, I am moving past the opening to get more material from her (using yohami traveller story as template). I purposefully do not put a question mark at the end following fuckboy tim advice to avoid upward tone inflection

    [~~~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?
    [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?
    [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …
    [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)
    

    On line 5, she is continuing to play along and wanting me to tell her in effect ‘that I like her’. She want me to validate her!
    On line 6, she then continues in ‘normal friendly tone’ for rapport (ie. a road to no where – a trap (wall) )
    On line 7, she is now testing me and saying something out of the ordinary. This is an OPENING.
    On line 8, I am withholding the validation that she wants – there is no reason for me to give it. She is still very pretty but starting to approach the wall (judging from her inperson behaviour before her looks start to fade)
    On line 9: I address the ‘how are you’ by saying ‘I’m awesome’, I also consciously do not say ‘thank you for asking’. At this point, I am consciously being careful not to repeat her words (ie. mirroring) while still addressing the relevant points and maintaining the conversational flow. The 2nd part is addressing her challenge (i mirror ‘magical powers’) and taking the OPENING. While typing this, my MIND WAS IN CONFLICT if the above was ‘too strong’ or not – I could feel the PHYSICAL STRAIN on my brain as my fingers were typing this but I pressed send and off it went wondering if she was going to respond at all. Either way, I am being very clear in establishing the sexual frame.

    [~~~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)
    [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?

    [Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)
    [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].
    

    On line 10, she see my frame and accepts it. I think she smiling because of the smilie face in her response – i am hitting an arousal point
    On line 11, she is now trying to continue the conversation but trying to switch back to rapport by talking about my nationality as she has hear two nationalities from my in person (background = I switch depending on how I am talking to and what I think would made better conversation)
    On line 12, I am trippling down on the sexual frame. I am very conscious that 3x down this thread is the limit but since she said ‘half half’ I pushed it one last time to this limit. I use the word ‘may’ instead of ‘will’. I felt that using the word ‘will’ could give her the option to just shut me down for her laughs and ego. By using the word ‘may’ it is not certain if I am going to keep moving in her direction forcing her to doubt and hamster all my future actions.
    On line 13, I know that I cannot keep hammering the sexual thread and have to address her rapport item for the conversation flow. I keep it superficial.

    [~~~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?
    [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is
    [Line 16] Me : I am [Parents Country nationality] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].
    

    On line 14, she is now trying to reconcile what she heard from her two different ears while in person.
    On line 15, she really trying to continue the discussion down the rapport line triggered by my ‘wont go back’ statement.
    On line 16, I am responding by keeping it brief while being very conscious that the more I give here, the more this is going to go into rapport ad-nauseum to nowhere.

    [~~~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you from [Country A] or [Country B]?

    [Line 18] Me : [Continent].
    [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)

    [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me
    [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))
    

    On line 17, she is still trying to put her rapport frame in. My patience for continuing this conversation is over and she is giving me nothing to work with from her side (from what I can see).
    On line 18, I give terse response to her rapport question.
    On line 19, I close with this (as a way of saying bye) which is a casual command with a wink referring back to my sexual frame. I dont want her number as I will likely see her at upcoming drinks.
    On line 20, she states non-compliance but re-accepts my sexual frame (ie. she stopped seeking rapport)
    On line 21, she is now explaining herself to me why I should go to her (ie. she trying to establish herself as higher value and make me chase). She wants guy to come to her as she is use to having. This is also a wall (trap) that I know I cannot interact with (at least at my skill level). Conversation ends at this point.

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    In summary, I am not invested in this girl at all and dont really care one way or the other if I have her or not.
    But if the situation goes my way, i take her.

    The objective was training but in the above, I felt I did the following:
    1. Got her attention + FLIRTED
    2. Set sexual frame
    3. Got her thinking of me within sexual frame
    4. Left her with a thought about me at drinks (she will picture me + other girls as she has seen me with them before)

    Any thoughts?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 8:47 pm

      Aight man. In general it’ an improvement. She’s a fast girl. FAST girl. x20 ahead of you.

      When the chat started she took your flirting and escalated it herself. There you should have escalated, but instead you pulled the breaks and went for rapport (that was you). There she pushed you HARD into rapport, and then gave some resistance when you tried to go back to flirting.

      This girl is domineering – you’d have to be ahead of her at all times. You’ll get there.

      ===========================

      [Line 01] Me : Hey troublemaker ;)

      Good. This is nitpicking but ;-) is more masculine than ;). Of course if these are actual emoticons, nevermind.

      Line 02] Her: you like trouble – admit it :)

      THIS.

      See what she did there? she ESCALATED. This was the opening and she put it right in front of your face. Here you can say “oh I love trouble” or “I may like some trouble with you”

      Anything that pings back her overt flirting

      [Line 03] Me : haha … only the fun kind ;)

      The emoticon here doesn’t make sense – but all in all you’re de-escalating. You set a mini wall by stating that you only like a certain type of trouble, when the opening, the clear opening is that BIG trouble is BIG SEX.

      Another good answer would have been “I only like big troubles” and then “how much trouble can you take” or “how much in trouble can we get” whatever. This is about fucking.

      [Line 04] Me : so what’s up with you

      This is where you derail the conversation. You are breaking rapport, which is good in general, stating things then moving the subject – except you’re moving away from sex.

      You pinged, she escalated, an you you’re moving away from her escalation and want to talk mundane things now? don’t. In her eyes you just missed the window, and won’t fuck her. The puzzle “just got more difficult”. That’s all it takes.

      [Line 05] Her: of course – but i only make fun trouble, dont i?

      This is her doubling down that trouble is FUN and so is SHE. This is a clear invitation to dance.

      [Line 06] Her: official version = i’m fine. how are you?

      Can you tell how little of a fuck she gives now? the flip of a switch. Now she’s giving you “the official version”. This is de escalation but it’s also an opening. Here I would have said “don’t care about the official, what’s the true story?”

      [Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers”

      Do you see how she is breaking rapport now? she made a statement, asked a question, and before you even have the chance to respond she is TELLING YOU to do something for her, like you’re a monkey. Alpha chick.

      [Line 08] Me : lets see at the next event …

      Weak. If you’re going to make her visualize something in the future, make her actually visualize it. Aka, make up a story, come up with a plan, tease her.

      [Line 09] Me : I’m awesome. My magical powers will make you smile and it doesnt require me to say anything ;)

      Here you fell in the trap. She says “dance for me monkey and make me smile” and you replied “Im a special monkey who doesn’t have to dance to make me smile”. So you rejected the ‘dance’ part but you’re still trying to satisfy her criteria.

      Here you could contest her framing. I’d have said something like “Maybe I don’t want to make you smile” which would outrage her. Or make her smile. Not my problem.

      This is what I pointed at before that when a girl gives you an explicit opening, there’s little to be gained in doing exactly what she prompted. So anything here where you do anything at all that makes her smile is a trap. The correct key that opens that door is rob her the power she’s trying to exec over you.

      The other thing you could do is flirt (if you don’t feel like going for frame clash). A flirt like “you have beautiful eyes” or “I like your xx accent”, something that is plain and low investment and doesn’t constitute a monkey dancing, and is not parroting her same lines to her, any of them.

      I could also say: “I want to see you naked”

      Why? because it’s outrageous. It’s trouble. And it breaks the fucking pattern she’s trying to establish. It will also make her smile.

      But in all – good for identifying the trap. This is a trap indeed.

      Why is she setting you in a trap? because you failed to go through the door above, so now you get the wall. It’s like physics.

      [Line 10] Her: wow – we have some confidence here:)

      She likes it? right? right? you passed right?????

      Or is she happy that you did a little dance and she has power? will she be in compliance now or telling you to do more stuff?

      Which is it?

      Well she can’t be in compliance because she’s leading this now. So she gives you a bone and then…

      [Line 11] Her: so tell me what is this [Nationality] I hear? you a half half?

      She continues leading you into nowhere. Nobody gives a fuck about this.

      Me: Yes, my ass is peruvian and my dick is puertorrican.

      BREAK OUT OF THE TRAP

      “[Line 12] Me : 100% thoroughbred … as you may find out ;)”

      You’re playing into her hand. You’re flirting to the WALL.

      [Line 13] Me : Just raised somewhere else by circumstance – wont go back to [Country where born].

      If you’re going to go rapport like this, say a story. Frame it as an interesting or deep or remarkable display of high value. You are, right now, in the middle of a sexual courtship. Bobody gives a fuck about the country or if you’re going back. If you’re going to give info, make it interesting. Channel it into male to female. It’s slipping away.

      Me: I was born in Italy, raised in venezuela. My dad is a painter and my mom is a music teacher. When I was 27 there was a military coup and I decided I had enough, I sold everything I had and got just enough to bribe the military so I could get a passport, and flew to Argentina with 100 bucks in my pocket. So I borrowed a computer and got a very, very cheap room at a hotel full of prostitutes and went to work doing websites and stuff like that, till I made enough money to get out of that hole. 10 years later, Im a millionaire. So dreams can become true ;-)

      [Line 14] Her: hang on – [Other country] is where you were raised?

      Boring

      [Line 15] Her: and what is “wont go back to [Country where born]” – why is that?? one of the most amazing countries i’ve ever visited – in terms of scenery, that is

      See how consistently she breaks rapport and makes statements. She’s following that “top guy” structure you were talking notes about. She’s making you go up and down and directing this conversation. The issue is that she’s not leading you sexually, but asexually, because only bottom guy allows a girl to take control like this – therefore she can only use this control to treat you like a bottom guy, and reduce the size of your dick until it disappears into the nothingness.

      [Line 16] Me : I am [Country of parents] but born + raised in [Other Country]. My life is in [Continent].

      Nobody give a fuck.

      Me: Where do you want our babies to be raised in?

      WHERE IN A SEXUAL COURTSHIP

      [Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you [Country A] or [Country B]?

      Me: I like the girls of [Country] better.

      [Line 18] Me : [Continent].

      Boring. But good for pulling the breaks here. You saved an inch of dick before it completely bent backwards and went into your ass and she fucked you with it.

      [Line 19] Me : Come find me at the drinks ;)

      GOOD. Not specially strong considering where you’re at now, but good. Good good good. Break the stupid trap, take the reigns again.

      [Line 20] Her: nope. you come and find me

      See how she went from “Im fun trouble and you like me” to “nope”

      [Line 21] Her: i come from a cultural when men come to women :))

      Me: You’re all savages.

      All in all, you showed some teeth. Keep iterating. She may still be bangable.

      When you meet her or talk to her again, TAKE THE OPENINGS. ESCALATE.

      Cheers man.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/17/2018 at 10:19 pm

        Thank you for taking the time to breaking down the interaction in detail and also providing alternative responses (these really help).

        Key things from your analysis:
        – On line 1, the wink smilie, I use a mix of emoji or text. Will adjust to ;-) instead of ;)

        On line 2, I didnt see it as an escalation at the time but following your explanation I can see how this is an escalation. My concern while typing was not to mirror or follow her conversation lead
        On line 3, the smilie was me flirting. Everywhere there is a smilie is me flirting where I am using words but covertly I am talking about sex. Following your recommendation, the better response would of been “I love trouble … how much trouble do you think we can get in?”. What my mind was thinking is the ‘non-sense stories’ she was spinning with other guys (ie. pranks). This is from where my response was coming from.
        On line 4, here I can understand where I went wrong (ie. breaking rapport at point of flirting). Here I was thinking to move forward to flirt on something else that she may give me. Since I didnt want to bring up anything from previous drinks, I tried to move the discussion forward and see if she would give me anything to work with. In retrospect, I should of just continued along this line of ‘fun trouble’ and kept ‘twisting’ the meaning to make a new thread.
        On line 5, I saw this as her searching for validation of her pranks but I can also see her wanting me to escalate the ‘fun trouble’ point.
        On line 6, she is responding to line 4. What was going through my mind was that I did not want to build rapport by really asking about how she was. If I had said “don’t care about the official, what’s the true story?”, it would feel like I am really interested in her day / her feelings / etc which I am not.
        On line 7, this was something that I didnt expect of her. On the ‘alpha chick’ using rapport + break rapport, I didnt detect this at the time as it didnt occur to me that girls could also apply the ‘top guy format’ to guys. This is noted and will look for this next time.
        On line 8, I can see that I could of improve on my response and made more of a story. She also put lines 5 + 6 + 7 in one message. If I was to answer all of them in one go in more details, I would have wayyy to many words and this would have me ‘over investing’ in responding to her.
        On line 9, my response was to ‘break the pattern she was trying to establish’ however I disagree with your statement that I was complying with her request. She wanted me to say something to make her smile. If I had said anything that could of been seen as a verbal attempt to make her smile (eg. your beautiful, your amazing, your blah blah), then I would of fallen into her trap and done as she asked. When I saw her request (line 7), I saw it as an opportunity to change the frame from asexual rapport (which is where it was going) back to sexual. There could always be a varied opinion here but the above is what was moving through my mind.
        On line 10, she accepted my switch back to sexual frame. The smilie I think was more for surprise that I did the above rather than anything else. Again a varied opinion can exist here.
        On line 11, this is nonsense rapport talk which I detected in real-time but need to raise a separate post on this to address this properly
        On line 12, related to my previous comment on rapport. I was trying to break out by maintaining sexual frame but fell deeper into rapport.
        On line 13, I was not going for rapport at all but fell into it. Using a story like you suggested would of gotten me out of the rapport trap.
        On line 14, more bullshit rapport from her also trying to trap me with my words from previous in person exchanges.
        On line 15, again did not know girls would apply “top guy structure”. My fault being stuck here – relates to previous rapport point.
        On line 16, I am still stuck in the rapport
        On line 17, still stuck. She is now trying to corner me with rapport. Your suggested answer gives me a way (tool) to get out of this rapport trap.
        On line 18, I could see the rapport was going nowhere and was shortening responses more and more to leave nothing for her to use against me. If I had broken the rapport trap earlier, I would of not arrived at this point.
        On line 19, I was looking to make her come to me rather than me to her.
        On line 20, was not expecting this from her.
        On line 21, was sort of thinking girls may say something like this. Your recommended response of “savages” would of been a good closer before “disconnecting”.

        In general, it was expected that I would girls while learning but it also seems that there are always more girls to practice on. It is a real possibility that things go nowhere with this girl or other girls for a while, but through each iteration I figure out something new which in this case was:
        – Girl can use “top guy format” of rapport + break rapport (ie. question + statement)
        – When flirting, mentally replace the explicit “subject word” with “sex” and operate on that
        – When going into boring rapport or background, tell a funny story (true or made up)
        – If conversation moves into rapport, break out (likely OFFHAND + SNIP + STACK)

        As time progresses and I have new interactions, I will put them here to evaluation.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/17/2018 at 10:40 pm

          note: rapport is good when she does it. What she will do with rapport is tell you how to bang her

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/18/2018 at 7:07 am

            Can you give a sample conversation where this occurs?

            Will post later on my ‘rapport issue’ once I have gathered my thoughts.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/18/2018 at 7:30 am

              In my bus girl example, once I escalated and she didn’t fully follow, I switched to her saying “so what’s up with you”

              What she’ll do then is ‘blah blah blah’ and give you info on her logistics, mood, preferences, etc, but it’s all really catered to the sexual dance, as long as she’s interested.

              In your case the ‘what’s up with you’ didn’t have that effect because you broke the flirting vibe with it – she didn’t want to talk and tried to make you go into rapport.

              When you’re going into rapport don’t do rapport – tell stories that dhv, roleplay or do call to actions, and pass judgement, and reframe things into being you and her.

              =================

              Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery
              Me: Yes it’s beautiful, so when where you there
              Her: last summer
              Me: So why did you come back here if you liked it so much?

              see? that ball is passed back to her

              Her: hahaha I’ve got responsibilities
              Me: What responsibilities? think of the chicken
              Her: what?
              Me: I heard you were in (country X) working at a chicken farm as a chicken trainer, isn’t that where all your stories come from?
              Her: hahaah
              Me: Anyway – Im not going back to XXX because of XXX, but I’d be back if you come along and you show me that farm
              Her: hahaha
              Me: I want to see you in action ;-)
              Her: hahaha
              Me: Chicken girl

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:45 am

                Everything a girl tells you is a roadmap to fuck her:

                “Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery”

                She likes beauty and calm and likes to travel. Other girls will say that they like culture, or partying.

                So you can take the line above for example and say: so you’re not a party girl are you, or you can ask her out to see the scenery at X. She is telling you there what she likes [to have sex]

                “Her: hahaha I’ve got responsibilities”

                I made up this one but it means that she puts responsibilities above pleasure. Here the usual is to offer to be the one she doesn’t have to be as responsible with, aka you’re the gateway to adventure, she can relax and you’ll lead her there.

                “[Line 17] Her: aha. so you feel more like you from [Country A] or [Country B]?”

                She’s into categories. You can ask her which country has the men she likes the most. You can later frame her with this same device and ask if she’s an A or B type of girl. This ‘rubs her in the right spot’

                “[Line 07] Her: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers”

                She’s entitled and is used to really push guys and make them do things, she will LOVE a guy with boundaries she can’t manipulate, will love to be negged, being told what to do etc. She may get ‘infuriated’ by it which is just her vagina kicking in and wanting some dick. But all her ‘pushing men around’ has the sole objective of finding the one true man who will stand on his feet. Which is why your line of ‘making you smile without saying anything’ didn’t fully cut it.

                Me: Wow you sound like a pickup artist, just the other that girl X told me the same line
                Her: what?
                Me: Yeah she was all “hey make me smile I want to see your superpower”, I told her to get naked and make me a sandwitch
                Her: hahahaha
                Me: Are you all going to the same seduction school or something
                Her: hahaha

              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:47 pm

                
                Her: that country is the best oh the scenery the scenery
                Me: Yes it’s beautiful, so when where you there
                Her: last summer
                Me: So why did you come back here if you liked it so much?
                

                This is what I was looking for. It reverses the control of frame and then would allow me to switch to a different topic.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 8:07 pm

                On this part of your response:

                
                She’s entitled and is used to really push guys and make them do things, she will LOVE a guy with boundaries she can’t manipulate, will love to be negged, being told what to do etc. She may get ‘infuriated’ by it which is just her vagina kicking in and wanting some dick.
                

                This does describes her and does fit with the ‘map of the interaction’ since I had met her. She had initially tried to ‘prank me’ with the non-sense story but I didnt bite. I am confident that she did it to others and they went along too far with it.

                There were other occasions where I had opened her at another event and then she opens me via messages. It is a bit of backwards and forwards and at the time, I was not looking to have her so it was just fun exchanges and nothing else. The message exchange was the first where I had put the sexual frame in place.

                From here, I will have to see what happens.

                On the general rapport post, it was around girls always wanting to start / continue conversations with me on boring things. The more I thought about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the girl is ‘asking’ me to interact with her and escalate verbally. The conversations are always around same boring rapport topics.

                From your last set of rapport posts, I feel that I have enough now on how to move the rapport discussion around without getting stuck in a particular point or subject. If anything interesting comes up, I will report back.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 8:29 pm

                Rock on man

    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 9:06 pm

      Her: you like trouble – admit it :)
      Me: Yeah you’re alright
      Me: And kind of cute too
      Her: what??
      Me: It depends on how the light hits you
      Her: ahahah
      Me: And how many drinks I had
      Me: But yeah mostly cute I thoink
      Her: hahaha
      Me: Too bad about that face!

      Reply
32. Yohami helps me | Rivelino's Diary says:

    05/17/2018 at 7:15 pm

    […] by reminding me what a flirty conversation should sound like. from nash’s blog: […]

    Reply
33. The girl on the bus | Rivelino's Diary says:

    05/17/2018 at 7:18 pm

    […] yohami helps me by reminding me what a flirty conversation should sound like. from nash’s blog: […]

    Reply
34. Flat Lander says:

    05/17/2018 at 8:13 pm

    Outstanding example of how to dry her pussy before she lays eyes on you at that party.

    You’ve spent 90 minutes with her and you haven’t made any moves. You are firmly in the 100% cute bottom guy drawer. She’ll marry you when she turns 33 and divorce you when she’s 38.
    The BS about nationalities and where you were raised is BORING AF. It’s not about her and it’s just terrible chitchat.
    The only way out is smashing the frame.
    **[Line 01] Me: hi grrrl.. I’ll be at the party on… and I hope you won’t try your insane stories on me or on any of the other guests. I still have PTSD when I think of that smelly chicken trainer. **

    This is the mother of all pushes. You need to push her away and reset everything she thinks of you.

    Ideally you wouldn’t text her at all and simply game her properly at the party.
    For instance I’d walk past her making chicken noises and warning other people about her and her tall tales..

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/17/2018 at 8:57 pm

      Yes.

      Reply
35. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 9:28 am

    Yohami, thank you for all your help to other men. It is really very much needed and we are all grateful for your generosity.

    I’d like to contribute my text chat too.

    I met this girl while she was leaving the gym and has a bandage on her leg. She was stunning, a true beauty. And I was in a good mood that day.

    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

    Anyway, here is the text chat:

    Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me: I found you ;-)

    Her: Hahahaha

    Me: This is you
    Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful

    Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    Her: Good boy

    Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)

    Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

    Me: You like girls?!

    Her: No :D

    Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)

    Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
    Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Her: Yes

    Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me: I like it

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire

    Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me: [Angel Emoji]

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere

    Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me: I am the boss of sexy

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]

    Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
    Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me: Hahahah

    Her: [Angry face sticker]

    Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me: hahaha

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/18/2018 at 10:52 am

      She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

      You’re projecting based on a man’s similar behaviour. She’s not the boss of men. It’s just a bitch shield, because so many gameless creeps approach her. You did something right on the approach (or you’re good looking), even if it was mostly tussle. Less tussle, less arguing, less contradicting and more cocky/funny and amused mastery.

      Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
      Weak attempt at humour.
      Better: “Hello buster. Has your knee fallen off yet?”

      Me: I found you ;-)
      Translation: Look at all the hoops I am jumping for you. I am a thirsty boy.

      Her: Hahahaha
      Translation: Good boy. Jump higher!

      Me: This is you

      Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
      Pedestalizing a pretty girl with a globally recognizable pretty cartoon girl.

      Her: Yes, that is me

      Her: Very beautiful
      Agree and amplify. She’s firmly in control.

      Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
      Are you 10? What the hell is that?

      Her: Good boy
      Yes, good boy who doesn’t make me tingle.

      Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
      Compliance request without attraction? She’ll tell you to take hike.

      Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
      Oh, yes, she does.

      Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.

      Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)
      A neg without attraction. You’re just throwing everything and hoping something will stick.

      Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

      Me: You like girls?!

      Her: No :D

      Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

      Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
      More negs without previous attraction.

      Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
      Still throwing shit and hoping something sticks.

      Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
      A question that requires a yes or no answer dries pussies.

      Her: Yes

      Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me

      Me: I like it

      Her: I have no possibility and no desire
      She’s hurt and she’s not attracted.

      Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.

      Me: [Angel Emoji]
      Stop with emojis. Just stop.

      Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
      You’re so bad at reading the situation, that she has to spell things out for you. Not smart, dude.

      Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.

      Me: I am the boss of sexy

      Her: Seriously?

      Her: [Troll face sticker]
      Look what you’re doing to her.

      Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
      A bit of irony. Yes, I guess.

      Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl

      Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
      The first proper line. That’s a stack and the possible beginning of a role play. Too little, too late, though.

      Me: Hahahah
      And you fuck it up.

      Her: [Angry face sticker]

      Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.

      Me: hahaha

      Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
      The tingle is born in the defensive crouch. The bitch shield is usually paper thin. She’s dreaming of a strong, confident man to sweep her off her feet. A well-placed neg works wonders.

      Overall, you should leave flirting to face-to-face interactions. For 99% of men text is for pinging, gentle teasing and logistics.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:25 am

        Yep.

        Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:17 am

      Ok. My analysis:

      Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
      Me: I found you ;-)

      Her: Hahahaha

      Me: This is you
      Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
      //Talking about her here.

      Her: Yes, that is me
      Her: Very beautiful
      //Shows confidence. Top girl.

      Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
      //Swinging my dick

      Her: Good boy
      //She controls the frame.

      Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
      //I tell her what to do.

      Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
      //Doesn’t buy into the frame.

      Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
      Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)
      //Punish with a neg.

      Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
      //She punishes my punishment.

      Me: You like girls?!
      //Punish by implying if she doesn’t meet me, it’s because she’s lesbian. No straight girl will say no to me.

      Her: No :D

      Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P
      //Continued punishment. Added sexuality. Neg on not wearing make up.

      Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
      //Smiles show it’s not so bad. The medium is the message: she’s still talking, and using smilies. It’s good.

      Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
      //I went for the opening and avoided the wall. The opening there is “think”. So misinterpreted as her giving me a compliment on my intelligence.

      Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
      //Talking about her. Opportunity to judge her.

      Her: Yes

      Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
      Me: I like it
      //Telling her what to do. Judging things. Top guy.

      Her: I have no possibility and no desire
      //Not buying into it.

      Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
      Me: [Angel Emoji]
      //Punishment. I don’t care about her. I am using her for something.

      Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
      //Trying to punish my punishment.

      Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
      //Going for the opening, the other leg is healthy. Plus it is funny. No other man would say this to a girl of this caliber.
      Me: I am the boss of sexy
      //Top guy right here.

      Her: Seriously?
      Her: [Troll face sticker]
      //Tries to ping Bottom Guy.

      Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
      Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
      Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
      //Not buying into it. Going into an emotional area.

      Me: Hahahah
      //It was funny to me. Maybe I should have used a wink instead. Not sure about whether “hahaha” is appropriate or not. By the way, in real life, when I tease a girl with a big tease, I say “I am joking!”. Should I let it be and if they’re offended it’s good?

      Her: [Angry face sticker]
      //As Yohami said, angry in the case of a boss girl like this means arousal. Really, no man would risk offending this girl.

      Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
      Me: hahaha
      //Neg on age. Funny to me as well, I laughed hard.

      Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
      //She gives me the frame. I’m Top Guy at this split second. Compliance.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:24 am

        I see – very interesting to see your thought process. Have you had sex with a woman yet? had girlfriends? What’s your level of exposure to girls?

        I ask because what’s going on is you’re misreading everything. You think she’s flirting when she’s putting you down. So that probably comes from lack of contrast. This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO. Have you experienced a YES girl?

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:33 am

          It’s not that I haven’t experienced a YES girl, it’s that normally I just text whatever. I don’t think about it. And if it sticks, it sticks. If not, fuck it. Freedom from outcome and all that.

          Now I am taking it more seriously and thinking about it. So I need new YES girls to see the difference.

          Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:36 am

          This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO.

          How can this be a NO girl if she’s answering at all? She answers every time.

          NO girls look at the text and don’t even respond. It’s not like other guys are not texting her.

          I am reading that she’s a maybe girl that is looking for what Krauser calls “the rub”. Which is a girl acting difficult hoping a man will put her in her place.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/18/2018 at 11:43 am

            She’s draining all the approval she can from you, and pushing you as low as you will take it. This is very common in girls.

            Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 11:44 am

              What to do in that case? Let her go?

              Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 11:47 am

              Yohami, if you’d make rules of when to let go of girls, when to stop texting them, or when meeting them when it is time to go find another girl, that would be VERY useful.

              Aka: When to NEXT or go silent and wait for her to message back.

              I remember when you were helping Riv with the french girl, you said you’d normally wait for her to respond to the text first before re-engaging but you had to text to move it faster.

              Well, when to know when to next a girl, and when to know to let her go and wait until she texts back as long as she’d take, even if it takes her a month?

              Rules for this will save a lot of effort and be very useful.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 11:50 am

                That’s easy: you stop investing when you have a wall, and you only invest on openings. We talked about that in length before. Investing ON THE WALL is death. All you did in that chat was to die.

              • BlueValentine says:

                05/18/2018 at 11:53 am

                Ok. If there is only a wall and no opening, and we’re supposed to not respond to walls, then if a girl gives only a wall we just let her go as a NO girl?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/18/2018 at 12:22 pm

                Yes – and you should be ‘letting go’ all the time after every interaction

    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:17 am

      Everything about this is wrong. This is horny castrated chihuahua game. You’re trying to rape a wall that doesn’t have a hole on it. You’re desperately licking the bottom of a plate.

      You need a complete paradigm shift man.

      I can do a break down but first go over your own chat

      List the WALLS that she gives, and what you do with each one.
      List the instances of FREE VALIDATION that you give her, and what she does in return.
      List the instances of ASEXUAL RAPPORT that you initiate
      List the instances of CHASE (aka, when you over invest despite the girl setting a barrier / wall / boundary)

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        05/18/2018 at 11:31 am

        Castrated Chihuahua? That was funny!

        Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
        Me: I found you ;-)
        //Going for rapport with free validation. An assumed wall that she is not nice and easy with me.

        Her: Hahahaha

        Me: This is you
        Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]
        //Asexual rapport. Free validation.

        Her: Yes, that is me
        Her: Very beautiful
        //Wall: I am going for rapport and it only works if she reciprocates. She doesn’t, takes all the validation.

        Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.
        //Chasing. Investing and going for rapport even with no reciprocation from her.

        Her: Good boy
        //Wall: Good boy is NOT sexy.

        Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers
        //Chase here. Still trying to make the conversation work.

        Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
        //Wall: Not willing to invest.

        Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
        //Chase. Going for rapport after a wall.
        Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

        Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
        //Wall: We will not meet. You are chasing dude. It won’t work.

        Me: You like girls?!

        Her: No :D

        Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

        Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
        //Wall: I don’t care what you think.

        Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
        //Chase? I am qualifying myself here, maybe.
        Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]
        //Chase. Going for asexual rapport.

        Her: Yes
        //Yes answer. Brief and blunt.

        Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
        Me: I like it

        Her: I have no possibility and no desire
        //Wall: You’re bottom guy.

        Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
        Me: [Angel Emoji]

        Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
        //Wall: you are not a smart man like you said you are above.

        Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
        Me: I am the boss of sexy
        //Chase: Qualifying myself too much.

        Her: Seriously?
        Her: [Troll face sticker]
        //Wall right here. Judging what I said, and judging it negatively.

        Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…
        Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
        Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
        Me: Hahahah
        //Chase: trying to extend the conversation after a wall.

        Her: [Angry face sticker]

        Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
        Me: hahaha
        //The hahaha is breaking tension. Chasing right here. Also, without the “hahaha” this is a frame clash. So it is busting right into the wall head first.

        Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

        You need a complete paradigm shift man.

        Yohami. If you saw this text convo from someone you wanted to help, what would you tell them? What would they need to know to get their head out of their ass and get the paradigm shift?

        What would such a person need to understand, comprehend and hear to “get it”?

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 11:45 am

          I analyzed the text again. There might be improvement in my understanding here.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 12:24 pm

        Would be nice for me to also do a breakdown before you do yours and explain everything.

        But can only get to it a bit later on (few hours).

        Reply
36. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 11:50 am

    This is a NO girl, and everything she’s doing in the chat is a NO.

    Also, Yohami, if you’d write about how to tell the difference between YES girls and NO girls in chat. And the difference between their walls, it would be very helpful.

    This is supposed to be an advanced skill that comes with years of practice. So advice about hints that show whether a girl is a YES or a time wasting NO girl that just wants validation will be epic, so we focus our energy on the right girls rather than become a chat buddy with all kinds of hoes.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 11:52 am

      “This is supposed to be an advanced skill that comes with years of practice. ”

      NO.

      Reply
37. BlueValentine says:

    05/18/2018 at 1:38 pm

    Compliance request without attraction?
    A neg without attraction?

    Yohami, is it a rule that you only do compliance requests or negs after building attraction first?

    I thought if you’re a Top Guy, you assume attraction anyway.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 1:56 pm

      Name the instances in your chat where you’re assuming attraction

      Reply
      • BlueValentine says:

        05/18/2018 at 2:34 pm

        I understand. I am assuming the opposite. That I have to do something in order to get her attracted / interested.

        Reply
38. Lucretius says:

    05/18/2018 at 4:54 pm

    @BlueValentine
    Here is my breakdown:

    [~~~~ Background ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]
    
    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult. And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her. Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.
    

    Given the above background of your interaction with this girl, it is clear that for the intended purpose of sex, you FAILED before even asking for her number.
    A girl saying NO when a guy asks for her number, is a clear NO.
    A girl giving her number to the guy means almost nothing (unless you have clear context).

    In the above case, the context is that she purposely left out 1 digit and had set a trap for you (WALL). You have therefore found yourself in a situation where it is LOSE or LOSE. You have to make a decision to either:
    1. Not contact her and therefore never interact with her again; or
    2. Try to find the last digit and contact her (you chose this one)

    The trap is set for you to giver her validation and ego boost. She has baited you by giving you ‘a hot girl number’ with 1 digit missing to make you jump over this hoop (ie. she wants to know if she can make a random guy chase her – which you did).

    If you had understood the trap, a suggested approach while still with her in front of you was to look up like you thinking of something, scroll through your phone number and bring up her contact, ask her to confirm this is the one, then delete it in front of her, say something that you changed your mind and move on with your day. This would of robbed her of whatever thrill or validation that she would of been seeking.

    If you were going to try to contact her by completing the number, your opening line would have to be so well structured and hit so many funny points that it would make her to engage just a little bit more with you for her to verify if her initial assessment of you was correct or not (ie. you make her doubt not giving you the full number). However, if you had this skill of words for an opening line, she would not have missed a digit because you would of used this skill in person.

    So in summary, you were DEAD even before the text exchange started.
    It was all downhill from here with YOU pressing your foot down on the gas and then hitting the NITRO button :-/

    [~~~~ Segment 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me : I found you ;-)

    Her: Hahahaha
    

    Your opening here is bad. Using the ‘that is so nice and easy with me’ is confirming to the girl that you are grasping for something, anything to start the conversation. Her hahahaha is her LAUGHING AT YOU and the situation that she was able to make you do what she wanted (ie. she made a random guy chase after her). At this point she has already been validated and has been able to fight off ‘DREAD’ for a while longer knowing that ‘she has it’ (to make guys do what she wants).

    Given the context already explained in the background, there is practically nothing that would turn the interaction around.

    [~~~~ Segment 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : This is you
    Me : [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful
    

    This shows how much you value her (ie. hot girl) as you spent time finding a cartoon photo of her.
    She takes the extra validation giving her again an ego boost.

    [~~~~ Segment 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    Her: Good boy
    

    This makes no sense and is just random. The conversation with the girl should be ‘thematic’ (ie. following some kind of theme or word play). The themes would change throughout the discussion.

    This is just you inserting random information into it. It almost feels like you are verbally filling in a dating profile via text and expecting her to reciprocate. Her response shows very clearly that you are looking for reciprocation but she teases you along because you are chasing her and she is rewarding you for it (like a little dog wagging its tail). She wants you to keep doing what you are doing (which is chase her).

    [~~~~ Segment 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)
    

    This is again very random and not following any kind of flow.
    She is following the ‘magical powers’ theme by saying she ‘is not willing to use them on you’. She is clearly taunting you at this point (with sex) wanting you to say more things that has you chasing her.

    [~~~~ Segment 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me : But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)
    

    This is again non-sense but at this point, I think that you saw that she was not reciprocating with any information from her side so you decided to punish her by saying she is not good looking. This is actually a common reaction when guy advances, girl rejects then guy tells girl she is ugly / boring / stupid / etc.
    Girl knows this is non-sense and recognises it for what it is (guy is hurt and is throwing cups, vases and xbox at her). She knows it is non-sense because you stopped her in person, asked for her phone number (which she gave with a digit missing), you filled in the digit, told her how hot she is by showing her a photo look-alike of her.

    And then you tell her she is ‘not good looking’. Her response is telling your off while also smiling to what is happening. But you are seeing smilies and think everything is good so you continue.

    [~~~~ Segment 6 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : You like girls?!

    Her: No :D

    Me : i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)
    

    This is again random. You are also bringing up OVERT sexualization (like girls + lesbian) which is 100% bottom guy and reconfirms her view of you all along. Overt sex talk is during / after sex. Everything before is covert (inuendo).

    You are also using smilies constantly likely because she is doing it, but she is doing it because she has 100% control of you and nothing todo with liking you.

    [~~~~ Segment 7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)
    Me : Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Her: Yes
    

    Your thank you confirms that you dont understand what is going on and then you are bragging about yourself.
    She does not contradict you because she knows that if she does this, you will likely try to show her how smart thinking and cool man you are.
    She instead answers your cooking question with a yes wanting to know what you going to follow this up with.

    [~~~~ Segment 8 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me : I like it

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire
    

    This is again random talk about food without any kind of flow from lesbian (!!) to cooking (WTF!!).
    She is just going along to see how ridiculous the conversation can get at this point.

    [~~~~ Segment 9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me : [Angel Emoji]

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere
    

    Here again is just random stuff strung together without any structure.
    She responds by taunting you further on you being a smart man. She is also mocking you by calling herself a human (while you are non-human). This shows where you stand with her.

    [~~~~ Segment 10 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me : I am the boss of sexy

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]
    

    This set of lines is also so disjointed that I also say ‘Seriously? WTF?!’
    The [Troll face sticker] is her taunting you some more.

    [~~~~ Segment 11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : Wow, such romantic stickers…
    Me : It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me : And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me : Hahahah

    Her: [Angry face sticker]
    

    The lines are also disjointed. The use of ‘vampire girl + drink blood to recover leg’ is a good combination but has no place in this interaction whatsoever.
    Also you laughing at your own jokes pushes you lower. She responds with [Angry face sticker] to bait you into apologizing to hot girl.

    [~~~~ Segment 12 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    
    Me : I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me : hahaha

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!
    

    The only part that would be ‘acceptable’ in the above exchange is that you did not take back your ‘vampire’ statement.
    Again laughing at your own joke also shows that you think you are funny but are not. Watch comedians, they do not laugh at their jokes (extremely rare to see a professional comedian laughing at his / her jokes while telling them)

    [~~~~ Final Notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    If I think through everything, you should of not opened the text exchange and focused on what you did in person that could of been better to adjust for next time.
    As you did open because you did not understand the situation, the only thing that you could of done was have a laugh at yourself after she said ‘hahaha’ and said something like ‘you got me ;-)’ while knowing full well that she has zero interest in you. At this point it could of been a practice round for some humour but your creativity / humour level is so low that it would not have helped.

    In general from reading all your posts, I think that you are misreading social situations in general and without being able to understand socially what is going on between two or more people (social / asexually / sexually), I cannot see how you would progress with girls. I would suggest to stop trying to pick up girls for something like 3 months (also no reading on game) and just interact with girls socially to get more attuned of the social nuances. Once you have a better feel of social interactions, then start everything again from nothing.

    This random stuff approach and asking for RULES that can be executed like a robot without context will go nowhere.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/18/2018 at 5:31 pm

      All on point. How do you use bold text btw?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 5:39 pm

        for italics, use [left than]em[greater than] blah blah blah [left than]/em[greater than]
        for bold, use [left than]strong[greater than] blah blah blah [left than]/strong[greater than]

        replace the words [left than] and [greater than] using the html brackets. Everything between the opening and closing brackets will have the formatting.

        Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/18/2018 at 6:06 pm

      Thank you everyone who did their analysis of my text exchange. It is very helpful.

      You are also bringing up OVERT sexualization (like girls + lesbian) which is 100% bottom guy

      Overt sexualization is bottom guy? Why? How?

      I thought Top Guy leads with his sexuality.

      Here again is just random stuff strung together without any structure.

      Ok, so if I swing my dick, I have also to keep it thematic? Is that an important point to keep in mind?

      I thought swinging your dick means trying different things to see what will arouse the girl, which implies a bit of randomness in changing topics / behaviors / actions. If it’s not working, swing your dick.

      Again laughing at your own joke also shows that you think you are funny but are not. Watch comedians, they do not laugh at their jokes (extremely rare to see a professional comedian laughing at his / her jokes while telling them)

      RSD Julien Blanc specifically said to laugh at your own jokes. It shows you are amusing yourself. He literally said: “Yes, the common advice is to not laugh at your own joke. But I want you to laugh at your own joke. Laugh at your own jokes first. Amuse yourself when around people.” It was specifically stated by him.

      In general from reading all your posts, I think that you are misreading social situations in general and without being able to understand socially what is going on between two or more people (social / asexually / sexually), I cannot see how you would progress with girls.

      I don’t agree with your view on this, on me.

      Nash shared in this blog that his game is good when a girl likes him, and it is quite bad when the girl doesn’t.

      Me too, it’s my situation. It’s like a girl who likes me, who I have great chemistry with, inspired great game out of me.

      My goal is to make it more conscious so I improve with more girls, not just Yes girls.

      Again, my stats are 1 lay out of 150-200 approaches. Nash’s stats are the same. The fact that I fail with 199 girls including this one doesn’t make me socially inept. I still get 1 new lay a month with a girl that is younger and hotter than me. So statistically, again, you are wrong: those are good game stats by Daygame cold approach standards. And I will improve and get better with optimism and perseverance.

      I really don’t like this negative labeling of people who are trying to learn game as No Hopers or telling them to stop talking to girls. You can make people give up this journey by recklessly spouting such bad advice.

      A better advice would be compassion: It’s hard. It takes time. You’ll grow into a man who can do all this and more. So be kind to yourself. Be patient. Always learn. Always get more experience. And never give up. You’ll make it in the end no matter how slow it goes.

      Anyone reading this comment and is thinking he sucks should read that last sentence. It’s hard. But the journey is so rewarding.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/18/2018 at 6:20 pm

        My breakdown was my own personal opinion based on what you wrote and as it is just my opinion, you are free to ignore it as you want.

        From reading multiple of your interactions on various posts, it seems like a consistent point where you are not seeing the social context / thread going on hence you are just trying random stuff. Again, this is just my opinion and you are free to ignore it.

        Specifically on this:
        I really don’t like this negative labeling of people who are trying to learn game as No Hopers or telling them to stop talking to girls. You can make people give up this journey by recklessly spouting such bad advice.

        Not a SINGLE WORD of the above is mine – It is ALL YOURS.
        You can go back and see word by word how you have decided to interpret what I have said and turned it into this paragraph of yours, where you have given yourself the label of ‘No Hopers’. Also, I didnt say ‘stop talking to girls’, I said the opposite…

        Reply
        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 6:41 pm

          Thanks. No Hoper is a reference to someone else. Not you. I was talking in general.

          By the way, if you’ve read Krauser’s memoirs you can see we cannot get all girls. Often, we fuck up. It’s part of growth and of this journey. Nobody is 100% perfect or consistent.

          In all cases, Daygame is fun as hell. I highly recommend it ;)

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/18/2018 at 6:50 pm

            Yes, ofcourse … it was just me misunderstand your direct response under my breakdown where you use the term ‘you’ (multiple times) in your direct response to my breakdown where I am the only one having given general advise thus far on talking to girls.

            Anyways, yohami likely typing his breakdown and the interaction will move forward between you and him

            Reply
            • BlueValentine says:

              05/18/2018 at 7:08 pm

              It’s ok Lucretius. Your breakdown was brilliant. Very very good.

              Thank you. And also to Flat Lander who did a breakdown before you.

              And to others.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/18/2018 at 7:57 pm

                If this is the direction you want to take discussions, it is your choice.

                On a different note, I personally hope you are able to work things out where you have gone wrong from the breakdown I provided (everyone will have their own opinion). Your prior posts in the mormon thread that sparked continuous discussion between yourself and Yohami, really helped me see where I had been going wrong when interacting with girls in the sexual context. It was the ‘push’ forward for me making my posts here that allowed me to clear my head space to correct what I am doing wrong and gave me new concepts to work with.

                Perhaps, in the future you will post future chats (either on this thread or another) that have gone better for yourself.

        • BlueValentine says:

          05/18/2018 at 6:42 pm

          Also I really appreciate your breakdown. Thank you.

          Reply
39. YOHAMI says:

    05/18/2018 at 7:50 pm

    Blue Valentine, how did you know that the number was missing 1 digit? did she tell you so when giving you her number?

    Reply
40. YOHAMI says:

    05/19/2018 at 7:37 am

    Questions for Blue,

    1) When the girl gave you the number missing 1 digit, what does that mean?

    2) When you do the work and jump through the hoops the girl puts you through, like trying 1-9 numbers and ‘reaching her’ ‘finding her’ finally, do you think that amount of work validates you, or invalidates you on the eyes of the girl?

    3) Is banging 1 in 200 girls you approach a reasonable number for a beginner? what should be a reasonable number? what’s a pro number?

    4) Do you know any men in real life who are good with women?

    5) Are you still living with the people who are putting you down constantly? if so why?

    6) What do you want to get out of Game?

    7) When you are texting the girls ‘randomly’ and ‘to see what sticks’ what are you expecting to happen? what does it mean that something ‘will stick’? or, you engage in frame clash with all these girls – what are you expecting to get out of it? is that you waiting that one of them will play along and say yes to everything you’re saying? or one that will accept all the things you do for them and date you? again, what is what you think will happen when you text like that?

    8) Does your texting match how you game in real life? aka random, kissing butt, frame clashing, free validation, asexual rapport, chase?

    9) How good looking are you from 1-10? ask other people (try hot or not)

    Cheers man

    Reply
41. YOHAMI says:

    05/19/2018 at 9:58 am

    So, here’s a fucking manifesto

    The stuff happening in the Blue’s texting game matches a lot of what I saw in Cobrantula’s texting, as well as Robinhood. Is there a reason for that? maybe you’re all following a ‘daygame’ rulebook or something. Lucretius texts had a flavor of this as well.

    What am I talking about?

    Disjointed. Random. Neggy. Obtuse. Non flirty. Chasing. Going for rapport. Etc. There’s a pattern here. I will call it:

    BUTTON MASHING GAME

    The good news is that because it’s all the same crap all over again, the remedy is the same. The solution is the same. Here’s it:

    ========================================================

    You need to learn to be an attractive man.

    So this is not just about ‘what phrases can you say’. You’re going to dance a courtship routine with a girl. So you can’t just memorize a few moves and then do them on your own at random times. That’s now what the dance is about.

    What is the dance about you say?

    She will screen you and compare you against all the other men she can also have, see how you measure against them, she’ll offer you her fertility but ‘puzzled’ in between walls and obstacles and you have to do the right combination.

    This is why you can’t ‘button mash’ your way into her. You do the wrong sequence at the wrong moment and it’s over. And she will explicitly set you up in situations where you either do the right sequence or it’s over, and she will do that over and over and over again till forever.

    Do you understand?

    You need to LOOK at her and understand what is going on. You need to KNOW what you are doing. You can’t button mash.

    At the end of every interaction with a girl you need to KNOW what went right and what went wrong. You need to know what she responded positively to, and negatively too, you need to have a map, at the end, of where are the doors and what are the walls. Even if you failed, you need to know why. And if you ‘succeed’ and bang her, you also need to know why.

    If you don’t know what is going on, then you’re not doing Game.

    But I said you have to learn to be an attractive man.

    How do you do that?

    1) You need to learn to be a sociable human first.

    2) Then you need to learn to be a dominant human who is at the top of the human hierarchy and it’s associated behaviors.

    3) Then you need to learn to express sexually from that position.

    4) Then you need skill and experience

    I can succint the ‘bottom mash game pattern’ like this:

    You are acting like a non-fully human being, doing socially inept interactions, acting as someone who’s at the bottom pole of the hierarchy and needs to please and kiss butt, unable to express sexual interest in a way that is not ‘pushing against rejection’ or ‘incorporating defeat in your own intent’, plus unskilled at it

    Do you see it? This is why you can’t just do ‘1000 more approaches’ and get good. It’s like going to the gym for 1000 days but doing the wrong stuff and eating pizza. This won’t work.

    You need to FOCUS and do it right. Like you’re playing and instrument. You need to do the RIGHT THING again and again and again and again until it becomes muscle memory and it becomes an integral part of who you are.

    You won’t hit that with button mashing quick fix parrot game. And you wont have success with girls either. 1 in 200 means you’re disposable and you’re just being used by a random girl who couldn’t ABSOLUTELY do any better. Don’t be a fucking trashcan.

    So how do you fix it.

    Drop Game for a wile. Fix the stuff from the ground up.

    YOU NEED TO BE A SOCIABLE HUMAN

    Become good at dealing with people, reacting on your feet to social interactions, being comfortable with being the center of attention, and being a supportive character, learn to chit chat, deep chat, make jokes, etc. How? meet more people, put yourself in uncomfortable situations, etc.

    Doing pickup is useless here and doesn’t count, because in pickup you’re interacting with a predetermined formula and a predetermined goal. Pickup means you’re trying to do the same thing again and again and again to get better at it.

    What I recommend is taking an ‘improv’ or improvisation theatre course and hit it hard. To supplement that join as many social groups as you can and do as weird shit as you possibly can.

    What you need to get from this is to channel what it is to be human, how humans respond, etc, need to be able to read human interactions. This is the basic cure for the ‘randomness’ of the button mashing game.

    YOU NEED TO LEARN TO BE A DOMINANT HUMAN WHO IS AT THE TOP OF THE HUMAN HIERARCHY AND IT’S ASSOCIATED BEHAVIORS

    Besides social interactions being ‘easy’, they need to be easy for you when you’re in power. The tricky part here is that as soon as a human gets in power they become an asshole. People are not used to have power and become the worst part of themselves when get get a taste of it and become abusive and hideous.

    Then some people don’t want to touch having power, I hear the ‘I don’t want to be alpha’ all the time, or “I am not top guy” which is fucking nonsense.

    If you want to be good at Game then you need to be an attractive man which means you must become a ‘self reassured, dominant, confident man who takes shit from no one’ and there’s one, and only one, way to get that done which is to become the guy who is at the top of the pyramid.

    And you must go there in behavior and socially.

    How?

    Stop being a fucking victim.

    Take fucking full control of your life and your circumstances.

    Focus on who you want to be. Find out what your boundaries are. Enforce your boundaries. Kick out the people out of your life who wont respect your boundaries.

    Put yourself in life situations where you are the one in charge, and where choices and decisions have repercussions and you’re the one to blame and to point at when things go right and when they go wrong.

    Organize events. Be the boss of the hobby club. Be the master of the ‘dungeons and dragons’ party. Make parties. Be the one volunteering to the ‘improv’ sessions so all the eyes are on you. Be the lead singer on a band. Be the guy with the photography project that everyone is going to look at. Be the center.

    Then find the way to be at EASE there.

    Learn to expect that your voice is heard, that your commands are obeyed, that your desires matter, learn to grow appreciation for when people are in compliance, learn how to reward people for wanting to play along with you. Learn to be GOOD at being on top.

    But how to speed things up?

    In my case I made a list of all the behaviors that were ‘bottom guy’ and I just stopped doing these.

    The social rules are hardcoded and if you’re acting like bottom guy, then you get slotted as a bottom guy and get the associated rewards. So, try stopping all bottom guy behavior.

    You’ll have a lot of ‘free time’ and anxiety. That’s fine.

    You’ll fill that vacuum with more top guy and leadership activities, more social groups, more high-life type of stuff. But first you have to drop the bad framing you set for yourself. Yes, you’re the one framing you there. It’s you. The rest of the world is just playing along with you. You told them who you were, now they play along.

    What are the behaviors attached to top guy / dominant male / top of the hierarchy?

    Entitlement, dominance, sense of humor, playfulness, asertiveness, confidence, swagger. Then breaking rapport, non-chase, self-sustained, boundary pushing, boundary asserting, attention seeking (and mastery) and so on.

    YOU NEED TO LEARN TO EXPRESS YOURSELF SEXUALLY AS A DESIRABLE MAN

    When bottom guy expresses sexual interest it’s always as if you’re doing them a favor. Or, you’re paying them back for some effort or sacrifice they made. Or they are expressing their pain that they can’t get what they want in hopes that someone will throw them a bone. Or it comes as a ‘trick’ like it’s a con-job, how to fool a girl or how to find the flaw in a girl or how to make her weak so bottom guy can get away with a quasi rape.

    What all this comes from is from being an undesirable male.

    All this is an undesirable male trying to have sex.

    There’s no amount of Game that will fix it.

    So how does the desirable man express his sexuality?

    Where bottom guy is always interacting with rejection, top guy is always interacting with desire.

    But how?

    Fucking laser focus.

    When you interact with the girl, you ping her desire, instead of pinging her rejection.

    But how?

    You flirt. Aka, you express nuanced sexual interest. When she reacts positively, you invest more.

    That thing that sounds so simple ‘when she reacts positively, you invest more’ is the whole thing.

    1) You ping. You tease. You flirt. You initiate. You display. You propose. You invite her to dance.

    2) She reciprocates. She opens. She complies. She follows. She responds with ‘arousal’

    3) You double down on her YES, which makes it bigger. You TAKE ACTION and escalate.

    4) Iterate

    Without this in place, or what bottom guy would do goes like this

    1) You go against her wall trying to climb it or smash it or punish her for having a wall, you go too far, or don’t go at all, try to make the ho say no, or are scared of the ho saying no

    2) She sets a wall because what is she supposed to do with this crap?

    3) Iterate

    Do you see it?

    YOU NEED SKILL AND EXPERIENCE

    You need to be repeating the whole thing, all at once. Being sociable, being in power, and being sexual. Being sociable, being in power, and being sexual. Being social, being in power, and sexual. Power, social, sexual.

    You need to hammer the right archetype and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and hammer and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat.

    And with every iteration, like when you’re gaining any other skill, new things come clearer to you.

    And you can’t do this with ‘daygame’ or ‘pickup’ it’s not enough.

    You need to be on this train from the moment you open your eyes in the morning, to the moment you close your eyes. It needs to be all-life encompassing.

    Because this isn’t about ‘banging girls’ this is about WHO YOU ARE.

    You need to be social, in power, and sexual. Always.

    Enter a social interaction? be social. Make it interesting. Make them laugh. Learn something new. Touch people

    Enter a social interaction? be in power. Make it work. Enforce boundaries. Test boundaries. Inject humor. Draw attention. Make everyone like pleasing you.

    Enter a social interaction? are they cute girls? Flirt. Make sexual remarks. Arouse them. When they switch to ‘yes’ even a little, and they ALWAYS DO, then double down, raise the temperature, then let them go, then iterate.

    Watch every fucking single guy who is good with women.

    SOCIAL.
    IN POWER.
    SEXUAL.

    ========================================================

    And now the most painful thing I’ve read in a month. Blue’s texting paradigm.

    ========================================================

    She was difficult. She told me she is difficult.

    That’s her problem, not yours.

    And I set boundaries with her and contradicted her.

    This is frame clash, aka you going against her walls and putting walls to her walls. Do this only when you are going to arouse her with it. So, are you trying to arouse her, or are you just naturally attracted to a girl’s defenses? are you trying to arouse her, or are you trying to bring her defenses down?

    Even when getting her number, she gave me the number without the last digit, so I had to try all numbers from 1-9 to find her lol She’s used to being a boss of men.

    Did she tell you that the number was missing a digit? was in in purpose?

    Is this how she would treat Leonardo Dicaprio? if not, what does that say about how she looks at you?

    Guys get confused here “but I am not Dicaprio”. The point is that your BEHAVIOR has to be in match with top guy, or your behavior will be unattractive. Capisce?

    So she may not treat you like Dicaprio, but you have to reply as if you are, which makes her align with you and treat you like you are. This is just about aligning her behavior with who you really are, and you have to be THE FUCKING MAN.

    Her: Here’s my number, without the last digit
    Me: Well I can’t call you like that can I
    Her: Try the numbers 1-9 and you’ll find me
    Me: What’s in it for me?
    Her: .. that you will talk to me?
    Me: Im talking to you now. You’re silly (pass her the phone)
    Me: Put your whole number or forget about it.

    Be the fucking man.

    Me: Hello girl that is so nice and easy with me
    Me: I found you ;-)

    Your impression with her was pathetic enough she set a wall to her fucking phone number.
    Now you’re showing her you’ll go the extra mile and jump through the hoops.
    And you even ‘flirt’ with that emoticon to that. You’re flirting to the wall. You’re rewarding bad behavior. You are telling her ‘do more of this, I like it’. Like a submissive dog. This shit is infuriating for me, and repulsive to the bone for women, which means

    Me: I found your number, where’s my blowjob?

    Her: Hahahaha

    You’re dealing with an EVIL motherfucker. Is this the 1 in 200 you can bang?

    This is the kind of motherfucker evil bitch you have to stay away from.

    Me: This is you
    Me: [Photo of a cartoon girl that looks like her]

    This is free validation. But it shows you put the extra effort in finding a cartoon so you’re putting her forward up on a pedestal. Like doing the pickup, dealing with a bad phone number is not enough, then putting the work like a good dog and getting a machiavellian ‘hahaha’ is not enough, you want to sweeten the deal even more and put extra fucking work and put her on a pedestal even more.

    If anything the reverse would have worked. Neg the shit out of her with an ugly picture. This would have been ‘better’ but we’re dealing with a bitch in a broken frame. This is not a situation where you should be ‘gaming’

    Me: (picture of a fat woman in bed)
    Me: Remember to exercise or you’re become like this

    Her: Yes, that is me
    Her: Very beautiful

    She takes the free validation and gives nothing in return

    Me: Eh sorry, I meant this one (pic of something outrageous)

    It’s not that negging is the only way to deal with girls: We’re dealing with a girl who is pushing down and needs to be brought down. This is a simple dominance contest. She’s pushing down, you push her down.

    What you’re doing, Blue, is rolling on the floor with your belly up.

    Me: I like parks. I like books. And I like ice cream. But not chocolate ice cream.

    WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK IS THIS.

    I read that this is you ‘swinging your dick’. Nope. ‘Swinging’ is about expressing your ‘social, sexual, in power’ vibe with some story telling, teasing, messing with her, crossing boundaries, bossing her around, flirting, negging, etc, all the small but fun stuff that happens in social / sexual interactions when you’re not having sex but are going to have it (you need exposure to that world if you don’t know what Im talking about, go where players fuck the bitches and look at them in action, please).

    Your line is random asexual statements. There’s nothing she can do with them. Maybe you’re expecting that she says “oooohh I love parks, parks are the best!!!” ? should she orgasm with the ice cream line? are you setting a boundary by saying no to chocolate? what the fuck is going on?

    Her: Good boy

    She’s a savage. There you go, pushing down just for the sake of it. Good dog.

    Me: tell me something that makes me smile… let’s see if you have magical powers

    Random jump. This is a feminine line by the way. You are the one arousing her, she’s the one evaluating you. Your job is also to find if she’s receptive, and you find that out by ‘swinging dick’ (not talking about parks and icecream) and seeing what she responds to. The only thing she’s been responsive so far is to push you down, while you greatly help her do so.

    Her: I have but not willing to use ;-)

    And she does it again. Down you go. More walls for you. The wink is an invitation for you to try again, so she pushes down again. Great game you’re playing here man. Nope.

    Me: You know, if I get drunk, you’re really cute.
    Me: But I never get that drunk ;-)

    Random jump again. Your first line is FREE VALIDATION. The second line tries to rob the validation away from her. Are you expecting that she will jump “nooo please don’t take away the free validation…. please get drunk so I can look cute for you”???

    Because the line is free validation with a hint of neg on it, you can use it to FLIRT in a different setup (not here). If you’re in some other place with some other girl in a semi formal environment you could perfectly say this

    Me: You know, with a couple beers on me you’d be damn cute ;-)

    She’d smile and think you’re such a badass and drip wet a little.

    Not here.

    Her: This is not a problem, because we will never meet again :) :) :)

    She actually ESCALATES your wall, see? you tried to do a neg, now she increases the gap, so now you’d have to jump HARDER. She adds THREE emoticons now which is your invitation to keep filling that gap hader. How desperate can she make you?

    This stuff is like the completely opposite of what actual seduction looks like.

    To bang the girl you ping her interest, she gives you an opening, you escalate, so the opening gets bigger.

    With this psycho bitch paired to your bottom castrated puppy mindset, you ping her wall, she increases the WALL and then you keep dancing and escalating on rejection. LOL!

    And this is fantastic to illustrate the point further:

    Me: You like girls?!

    Random. Here you’re looking for ANOTHER WALL that is not even there, or, you’re looking for ADDITIONAL CRITERIA she may be rejecting you on.

    Where a top guy / top frame / social power sexual guy would be looking for ADDITIONAL OPENINGS or more arousal spots or more things she’d say yes to etc, you keep finding more rejection points, and trying to bring more walls to the table.

    What the fuck!

    Her: No :D

    She loves. Burn the witch.

    Me: i thought you’re lesbian. That’s why you don’t wear make up :P

    Now try to turn the wall into a flirt / neg.

    Her: You can think anything you want :) Not my problem ;-)

    She’s getting bored. You need to get more creative on different ways she can reject you. Try harder.

    Me: Thank you. Yes, I am a smart thinker. Such a cool man ;-)

    You’re trying to validate yourself to contrast how much she’s putting you down. This is a sane instinct. Use this instinct to not let yourself involved in games like the one you’re playing here

    Me: Do you know how to cook, sick girl? [She’s in bed sick these days because of a leg injury]

    Random. The ‘sick girl’ means ‘you remember and you care’

    Her: Yes
    Me: Come cook Pasta Bolognese for me
    Me: I like it

    Nobody gives a fuck. I wonder if all the back and forth so far makes you think she’s ‘invested’ and will play along with your call to action. The call to action in itself is fine, but it’s random / misplaced / socially inept placed here considering what’s going on.

    You’re playing a game where she gives you a hoop to jump and you jump it, just so she can push you down and give you another hoop. She doesn’t give a fuck about what you want, desire, etc. Any subject is just a way that she’ll use to reject you again, and she expects you to be happy about it.

    Her: I have no possibility and no desire

    Trapped in a loop

    Me: That’s the real secret. I only talk with you because I miss homemade Pasta Bolognese. It is delicious, [Girl Name]. So delicious I talk to you just to eat it.
    Me: [Angel Emoji]

    “I only talk to you” again you’re trying to take away the free validation by making it conditional. Is that how you seduce girls? give them a lot of free candy till they are fat, then you threaten to take the candy away?

    Is that true to your core mechanics? did someone raise you like that? are you open to maybe ditching this whole approach to life?

    Her: A smart man understands that a human being with a leg in pain cannot go anywhere

    You notice this? the ONLY thing you’ve asserted yourself on was that you’re a smart guy. And now a few moments later she is using it to neg you.

    Can you see what type of person she is?

    Me: It is ok. Your can jump on other leg. It is sexy) I am a man, I tell you what is sexy in a girl.
    Me: I am the boss of sexy

    Now you’re trying to switch to a dominant position. It’s a weak attempt but follow the trajectory. We started filling random numbers on a bad phone lead, then sending cartoons and giving free shit, to finding new excuses on how to reject you, to trying to assert your own value, to now being domineering. That’s a clear path. So – you set a trap with candy, then try to be a kids abuser or something.

    You could bring it up a notch and buy a pedo-van.

    Her: Seriously?
    Her: [Troll face sticker]

    She’s not happy you’re changing the game

    Me: Wow, such romantic stickers…

    You’re back to pushover mode. She sets a wall, now you’re rewarding her for the wall. You think walls are ladders. VERY interesting stuff.

    Girl gives wall to guy.
    Guy tries to make love to the wall.

    It’s like when a dog tries to fuck someone’s leg.

    Me: It makes me imagine you’re a vampire girl
    Me: And you drink blood to recover your leg :-)
    Me: Hahahah

    Calling her a vampire is fitting.

    When Julian says ‘laugh of your own jokes’ – go find the charisma on command videos and find the types of humor. When you are saying a joke you have to find it funny yourself, so when you’re saying it the smile is building in your face. And your laugh, if you laugh, can be contagious and set the mood.

    That’s not what’s happening here though. The ‘hahaha’ comes across as you trying to fill her spot in the dance. She’s not playing along so you’re trying to be the girl

    Her: [Angry face sticker]

    Wall.

    Me: I like it when you’re angry. It makes you look younger.
    Me: hahaha

    Iterating on all fronts.
    “like when you’re angry” is rewarding the wall.
    “makes you look younger” is trying to neg to take the free validation away
    “hahaha” is you trying to fill in the gap because laughing is what she should be doing, if she was aroused at all

    Her: If 24 is too old, I’m beyond saving!

    Me: yes, your best years are behind you

    =========

    Blue, man, get out of this fucking trap.

    If you do 1000 interactions of this kind you’ll only get WORSE. And that’s on you.

    Focus on doing it right. Repeat the dance as it’s supposed to dance. This is not it. Do better.

    Cheers man.

    Reply
    • BlueValentine says:

      05/19/2018 at 11:55 am

      Thank you Yohami. Very important info there. Will study it and apply.

      Reply
42. Lucretius says:

    05/19/2018 at 10:59 am

    On this part:
    
    … maybe you’re all following a ‘daygame’ rulebook or something. Lucretius texts had a flavor of this as well.

    What am I talking about?

    Disjointed. Random. Neggy. Obtuse. Non flirty. Chasing. Going for rapport. Etc. There’s a pattern here.

    The above in bold italics are definitely my self identified problems and they are from social conditioning with re-enforcement from ‘structured game’ of multiple authors.

    This I saw clearly with troublemaker chat where I had to physically force myself to flirt with her and then got stuck in the rapport trap.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/19/2018 at 11:11 am

      Yeah. Flirting with walls too!

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/19/2018 at 11:20 am

        From the bike chat correction attempt – yes, I understood the lesson ;-)

        One step at a time for me

        Reply
43. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 1:53 am

    @yohami:

    Just came back from a drinks event and found myself in a mixed experience. There are certainly many things that I need to fix in my verbal in-person interactions that perhaps you can provide some pointers.

    At this event, there was the troublemaker and also the polish posh girl were there. There was also another girl that I met there that was interested in me – will mention this in the set below.

    The drinks were at a bar and on arriving I specifically NOT talking to girls for 1-1.5 hours. Instead I am talking to guys and having to listen to them tell their boring things in my ear (job, industry, their work, etc). The reason I am doing this is because I see a lot of guys on arriving immediately start talking to girls and then changing every 15min to another group.

    One of the things that I am consciously doing while speaking to the guys, is moving myself into a ‘locked in’ position where I am leaned against the bar or chair (while standing) and having the guys around me talking to me. The purpose of this is for the optics of girls in the room seeing guys talking with me while I am relaxed and listening to each of the guys stories. This is again effectively differentiation and also signalling that I am leading the conversation and group (which I am).

    Polish
    On the polish, she came in much later than me and I saw her on the way to the toilet and then passed her on the way and she gave me a ‘hi look’. I just smiled and went onwards. On the way back from the toilet, I stopped and said hi and gave her three kisses on the cheeks. She then said ‘0.50 cents’ and when I looked at her thinking ‘what?’ she said ‘for the toilets’. I said to her ‘you owe me 0.50 cents for the kisses’. She then repeated her 0.50 cents request, I repeated that she owed me and I walked off into the crowd. For context, the polish girl was surrounded by 5 guys – note that it was just her and 5 guys around her (this is standard for her).

    I was off talking with other guy + girl groups and always making a point of sitting down next to the girl in whatever group I am in where I sitting side to side while other guys + girls are around me and the girl. During this time, I can see that the polish girl can see me and she is again constantly being swamped by guys. The guys however are getting better looking and are now at the ‘better looking, taller and wider’ than myself. I had moved around enough and then saw a guy sitting next to her (good looking guy). I went over and started talking to the guy (guy on purpose to avoid any unexpected reaction but also for the girl to see), asking his name and where he is from. Turns out I had met him before and we recognized each other. I was not speaking to the polish girl but this guy started to mention some words and then she was briefly roped into the conversation. He asked me if I knew her which I said yes and there was a little chat about how I met her before (red dress from before). I mentioned last time that she was tired some travelling and she responded that she was not tired today. Something must of clicked in his head because he asked me if I had met her in between drink events and I said no (translation = he asking if me + polish are dating). While we were talking somewhere around this point, the guy said something I called the polish girl ‘furniture’, beautiful furniture. The girl said something or other and then said something like ‘and I am furniture’. The good looking guy at this point left on his own. I then sat down next to her and then said something or other (cant remember but it was about 30sec or so) and then a guy from a few meters in front with another group signalled or mentioned something and she went over to talk to him. I didnt want to sit there waiting on my own (bad optics) or go after her and so then moved to another group.

    About an hour later, she was at the bar with another guy (different but still taller and wider than me) and I jumped into the group briefly (addressing the guy and then the girl) and asked for my 0.50 cent. She said that I owe her 0.50 cents. I then fained disbelief and addressed the guy ‘can you believe this? she takes kisses from my and now doesnt want to pay the 0.50 cents’. The guy obviously hitting on the girl says that he believes her and not me. I then close with ‘watch yourself with this one’ and I walk off.

    About 30min later, I am speaking with another girl (bulgarian) and I can tell that she likes me. She had a male friend with her (long time male friend). The guy wasnt really talking much and I called him shy or other. He talked back on it but said that the bulgarian girl was not shy at all (guy was friendly). I challenged the bulgarian girl and said ‘you see that girl over there by the bar – the posh dressed one? She owed me 5 bucks. Go over there and ask her for the 5 bucks that is mine. Point to me when you ask. I spun the story further and told her to say that she was my ‘debt collector’. Bulgarian girl (good looking) took the challenge and went to the bar and started talking with the polish (i couldnt hear anything but could see the two talking). Bulgarian girl came back and said that ‘you shouldnt joke with the Polish (she referring to the nationality)’. I asked why but no specific details came out except ‘some people are just sensitive’. I took it that the polish girl was shocked (+ unhappy) in having this done. I continued speaking with bulgarian girl (will write more later).

    Towards the end of the night, I went to say bye to her but she was looking away pretending not to notice me. I moved a little bit to the side and then she saw me and said bye. I walked out and while waiting to cross the street, the polish girl came out with the guy from bar mentioned earlier and went off. Polish girl saw me on my own crossing street heading out.

    The polish girl was certainly interested to see me again and kept giving me glances throughout the above period (over 2.5 hour period). From the above, I did want to keep all the interaction short and the whole 0.50 cents ‘angle’ was a way for me to push her boundaries (as recommended) because she is use to guys falling over themselves for her (ie. she is the chooser). I dont know if I am pushing the boundaries correct here or not. I also dont have ‘verifiable proof’ of doing the above causing ‘vagina to get wet’ so all I am doing here is based on theory that I personally have not been able to prove out myself as of yet. What I do now is that I need to be different from every other guy that is falling over her + swarming her at every drinks event. For all intended purposes, I think nothing is going to happen here although I need to figure out where things can be improved.

    Troublemaker
    On this girl, I am getting annoyed. She acknowledged me while I was still in the early part of the night with guys around me but when I went to speak with her and the group she was with, she was distant and saying whatever or disregarding anything I said (but not with others). During this whole time, there was some guy that was ‘stuck to her’ constantly and throughout the night right up to the end. When I was going to leave, I asked who this guy was and she said ‘a friend’ but they exchanged details on leaving. Not much is happening between her and me on this and I just decided to head out. Also I said that ‘she should ask her friend if he has magical powers’. This was 100% bottom guy from me and reflex (likely from the other time with polish). My general annoyance with this girl is that she is always said “meh whatever” with facial expressed but over texts is interacting with me as posted. Here it has been going on for long enough that I just dont want to interact with her as I can feel that I am being played for cheap entertainment.

    Bulgarian
    This bulgarian girl liked me from the start and shows that my initial interaction goes well. We were talking a bit and I had in my mind to not fall into the rapport trap but girls just kept asking the same questions:
    – Where you from?
    – What you do here?
    – How long you been here?
    – What do you do for hobbies?
    – etc

    With this girl, I was constantly trying todo ‘rapport + break rapport’ and maintain control of the conversation. I was also trying to redirect the conversation towards something non-boring (not done very well in the moment) and around dating. At one point I asked her to describe me and she said that I was energetic and went out and did stuff (which is true and see talking her cues from my verbals but also the 5 bucks story). She said she liked this. She went to toilet and came back and was standing. I tapped the bar stool next to me and she sat down. Effectively, I had good compliance. Given this point, I said “When are you free? I take you out”. Her english was not 100% so I had to say it again in a round about way. She then literally tried to tell me her scheduled and ask me for something during the day (impossible for me) because she works at night (in a restaurant). I said it is impossible during the day for me (I cannot just say whatever else she is going to think it is fine during day). There was also a tussle of location as she lives far away. I was saying to come to a central point whereas she wanted me to travel out. I didnt want to argue on this point and said ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She then again tried the same argument to get me to travel to her and I said the same ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She was then continuing to try to say when something can be done and I told her to work it out and then let me know. I asked again for her number (3rd time and last), she paused which caused me to wait and then she said what about her taking my number. I stopped for a moment and thought this is going to go nowhere but entered my number in her phone. I then said that I was going to go mingle but left shortly afterwards.

    general rapport problem
    Again there is a general rapport problem in my in person verbals. Given that it is a constant pattern, i need to have a story prepared for each possible question and then a followup topic to take back control of the discussion.

    What is strange for me is that the guys who are talking with these girls (polish + troublemaker), they are getting numbers and in the case of the polish, they are continuing the drinks somewhere else (dont know if it is leading to sex or not) but they are moving forward where I am keeping interactions shorter and choosing not to ask for their number. The point of this statement is that it is making me doubt somewhere something about the in person conversations that I need to have. My mind was trying to have verbally the text chats type of discussions which is just not enough on the time scale (ie. text chat can be had with content that only fills 2min of talking whereas in person it feels like 30-45min of talking is required. This gap has me concerned).

    Any thoughts on everything above?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:54 am

      Part I Polish posh attention whore

      Just came back from a drinks event and found myself in a mixed experience. There are certainly many things that I need to fix in my verbal in-person interactions that perhaps you can provide some pointers.
      Stop focusing on your verbals. There is no magic incantation that will make you attractive.
      It’s your inner game that requires an overhaul.

      The drinks were at a bar and on arriving I specifically NOT talking to girls for 1-1.5 hours. Instead I am talking to guys and having to listen to them tell their boring things in my ear (job, industry, their work, etc). The reason I am doing this is because I see a lot of guys on arriving immediately start talking to girls and then changing every 15min to another group.

      Get Mystery Method. You are doing group dynamics wrong. By talking and listening to boring guys, you are
      – killing your vibe
      – killing your status in the eyes of the girls who observe you. All they see is a nerd talking to nerds.

      Quick fix: roll in with your own crew, make a ruckus, open mixed sets, open ugly girls, make noise, be trouble.

      One of the things that I am consciously doing while speaking to the guys, is moving myself into a ‘locked in’ position where I am leaned against the bar or chair (while standing) and having the guys around me talking to me. The purpose of this is for the optics of girls in the room seeing guys talking with me while I am relaxed and listening to each of the guys stories. This is again effectively differentiation and also signalling that I am leading the conversation and group (which I am).

      The positioning is a good start. However if you’re not having fun (having to listen to them tell their boring things), you’re not leading anything, just associating with nerds, thus becoming a nerd.

      Polish
      [blabla]
      She is an attention whore. You are giving her attention. She is also checking regularly if you are giving her attention. She is grooming you to be one of her orbiters.

      *On the polish, she came in much later than me and I saw her on the way to the toilet and then passed her on the way and she gave me a ‘hi look’. I just smiled and went onwards. *

      So, she doesn’t even talk to you and you reward her with a smile. Gay.
      Better: Make a fart noise as she passes by

      On the way back from the toilet, I stopped and said hi and gave her three kisses on the cheeks.

      Chasing hard, man.
      So. Gay.

      Better: Did you wash these hands, dirty girl?

      *She then said ‘0.50 cents’ and when I looked at her thinking ‘what?’ she said ‘for the toilets’. I said to her ‘you owe me 0.50 cents for the kisses’. She then repeated her 0.50 cents request, I repeated that she owed me and I walked off into the crowd. *

      She’s snatching frame and bullying you. You’re playing at her level (“You owe me.” “No, you owe ME), which is passable. Instead you shouldn’t entertain or listen to anything she says. Look up amused mastery.

      For context, the polish girl was surrounded by 5 guys – note that it was just her and 5 guys around her (this is standard for her).
      Massive.
      Attention.
      Whore.

      If you had better game, you would work to destroy her sense of entitlement and neg her hard.

      I was off talking with other guy + girl groups and always making a point of sitting down next to the girl in whatever group I am in where I sitting side to side while other guys + girls are around me and the girl.
      You are validating them for free. You are chasing without any sign of interest from them.

      During this time, I can see that the polish girl can see me and she is again constantly being swamped by guys. The guys however are getting better looking and are now at the ‘better looking, taller and wider’ than myself. I had moved around enough and then saw a guy sitting next to her (good looking guy).
      She’s playing you and all the guys like a toy.

      I went over and started talking to the guy (guy on purpose to avoid any unexpected reaction but also for the girl to see), asking his name and where he is from.
      Now you’re showing your lack of options and come sniffing around another beta orbiter. Stop.

      [snip]
      While we were talking somewhere around this point, the guy said something I called the polish girl ‘furniture’, beautiful furniture. The girl said something or other and then said something like ‘and I am furniture’.

      Look.

      Look hard.

      Look at the effect a simple neg has on her. Her hamster is spinning furiously.

      She needs and wants to be treated like a disposable whore, while you and all the other good looking betas are pedestalizing her and showering her with affection.

      About an hour later, she was at the bar with another guy (different but still taller and wider than me) and I jumped into the group briefly (addressing the guy and then the girl) and asked for my 0.50 cent.

      Still chasing her around the place, huh?

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:57 am

      Part II Chicken girl

      Here it has been going on for long enough that I just dont want to interact with her as I can feel that I am being played for cheap entertainment.

      And you still interact with her. The thirst is real, man.

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 3:07 am

      Part III The Bulgarian

      This bulgarian girl liked me from the start and shows that my initial interaction goes well. We were talking a bit and I had in my mind to not fall into the rapport trap but girls just kept asking the same questions:
      – Where you from?
      – What you do here?
      – How long you been here?
      – What do you do for hobbies?
      – etc

      She fancies you. Most girls have no game, so they will maintain contact with interview questions. No need to break rapport with this one. Just spike the conversation (Hmm, nice legs… anyway you were saying?) and then bounce her to a quiet place where you can sit down side by side and kino escalate..

      At one point I asked her to describe me and she said that I was energetic and went out and did stuff (which is true and see talking her cues from my verbals but also the 5 bucks story). She said she liked this. She went to toilet and came back and was standing. I tapped the bar stool next to me and she sat down. Effectively, I had good compliance. Given this point, I said “When are you free? I take you out”.

      Dude, she was free TONIGHT. You could have insta-dated her and maybe even banged her.

      Her english was not 100% so I had to say it again in a round about way. She then literally tried to tell me her scheduled and ask me for something during the day (impossible for me) because she works at night (in a restaurant).
      I said it is impossible during the day for me (I cannot just say whatever else she is going to think it is fine during day). There was also a tussle of location as she lives far away. I was saying to come to a central point whereas she wanted me to travel out. I didnt want to argue on this point and said ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She then again tried the same argument to get me to travel to her and I said the same ‘we will see. what is your number?’. She was then continuing to try to say when something can be done and I told her to work it out and then let me know. I asked again for her number (3rd time and last), she paused which caused me to wait and then she said what about her taking my number. I stopped for a moment and thought this is going to go nowhere but entered my number in her phone. I then said that I was going to go mingle but left shortly afterwards.

      She wanted your dick tonight. Once you failed to see her signals, the walls went up and the tussle started.

      Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 3:29 am

      Part IV Inner game

      Again there is a general rapport problem in my in person verbals. Given that it is a constant pattern, i need to have a story prepared for each possible question and then a followup topic to take back control of the discussion.

      You’re doubling down on this robotic/autistic bullshit. This is not chess ffs. Girls need to feel things: joy, arousal, dread, outrage. With you, they feel boredom.

      Look at the effect of the furniture neg or at the way the Bulgarian was impressed with your 5 bucks for the kisses prank.

      Being a calibrated asshole works wonders.

      What is strange for me is that the guys who are talking with these girls (polish + troublemaker), they are getting numbers and in the case of the polish, they are continuing the drinks somewhere else (dont know if it is leading to sex or not) but they are moving forward where I am keeping interactions shorter and choosing not to ask for their number.
      Let me tell you, they fuck.
      And yes, they are leading the girls, physically leading them out to all these cool places instead of talking and taking numbers.

      The point of this statement is that it is making me doubt somewhere something about the in person conversations that I need to have. My mind was trying to have verbally the text chats type of discussions which is just not enough on the time scale (ie. text chat can be had with content that only fills 2min of talking whereas in person it feels like 30-45min of talking is required. This gap has me concerned).

      Horribly wrong approach. There is no “gap.”

      Your in-person outer game reflects your terrible inner game.

      Your assumptions about female psychology, about seduction are wrong.

      No amount of verbal tricks can fix that.

      Right now, you are just a nice guy who occasionally has a flash of random inspiration.

      You need to fix your attitude first and become much more of a dismissive asshole.

      As long as you are looking for verbal pointers, you will be going home with blue balls.

      Recommendation
      Get some in-person face to face coaching, because right now you are destroying any chances to score in your expat social circle.

      Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 8:38 am

      Questions that should give you some light here. Respond honestly

      1) Why are you in that place?

      2) Why are these girls in that place?

      3) Is anybody there to have sex?

      4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual

      5) Same rank question but in your day to day life

      6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?

      7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)

      8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?

      9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?

      10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them

      11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:15 am

        My responses (honestly):

        1) Why are you in that place?
        I am going there to meet girls in the sexual context and improve my skills in this area.

        2) Why are these girls in that place?
        From what I observe, some girls are there to meet people (guys / girls) whereas some girls are there to meet guys (eg. polish). Some girls come together with girls. Some girls come together with male friend (as in bulgarian)

        3) Is anybody there to have sex?
        The vibe is not very sexual from the girls (but definitely from the guys). I would think that sex may happen on the night but likely at followup dates

        4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual
        Social = 7
        Power = 7 (I am able to control the groups that I am in but there are rare cases where I am speaking and get cut off)
        Sexual = 5 (I am obviously looking in the sexual context but pushing this too hard has me coming across as ‘thirsty’ as Flat Lander puts it. This has me keeping it lower – maybe this is a mistake, I dont know)

        5) Same rank question but in your day to day life
        Social = 6 (within office)
        Power = 9 (in office)
        Sexual = 3 (due to office)

        6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?
        Too many people around therefore cannot be heart of the party but also dont want to be center of attention for 50+ people. When I am in a particular group, I am directing the group in discussion bring the attention to me and directing it around as I move the conversation for people to respond.

        7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)
        Mention in Flat Lander response – to separate myself from the other guys. This evolved from where I was always just speaking with girls and not guys to speaking with guys first before girls.

        8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?
        I say no as this may come across as ‘too strong’ but if the conversation is going positively, then I am ready to take them somewhere else.

        9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?
        This was related to context and time of night. In past, I have had an interested girl (ones asking rapport), I asked to get a drink at another bar (while it was still early in night around 8:30) and continue there. Response was ‘I dont want to leave so soon’ (Translation: she still wanting to see what is available). With other girls, sometimes it is also quite late and they say they have to travel to get back home. In retrospect, these are all walls likely from a problem on my side.

        10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them
        This is a difficult question for me to answer because I cannot always see who is continuing onwards with girls that night (I am not the doorman). In the case of last night for the polish, the guy was taller, wider and about same looking – was also much older looking. With other girls and guys, a lot of contacts are exchanged but I cannot tell if it is for social politeness or if something else would come of it.

        11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?
        Upper end of middle.
        I can clearly identify the bottom guys as they are scanning the room constantly looking for girls (I use todo this and could feel the negative vibe from my side). Bottom guys are also standing alone or sitting in corner alone. ‘Top guys’ are very few from what I can say and are generally of good looks + height + width. Surprisingly what I thought was a top guy (he could of been a male model without issue) speaking to the polish (from above) that I approached, backed down and went away. I say ‘upper end of middle’ as I have largely removed the above mentioned bottom guy behaviour and am speaking with good looking girls on a continuous basis. My problem is in progressing from there.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 11:45 am

          Thanks man, let’s fix it.

          ==============

          1) Why are you in that place?
          You: I am going there to meet girls in the sexual context and improve my skills in this area.

          Me: Wrong answer. You’re going there to have sex. Embrace it.

          2) Why are these girls in that place?
          You: From what I observe, some girls are there to meet people (guys / girls) whereas some girls are there to meet guys (eg. polish). Some girls come together with girls. Some girls come together with male friend (as in bulgarian)

          Wrong answer, all of them are going there to have sex. All the socialization going on is sexual in nature. The result of all the socialization that happens, is sex. Each participant does it with a variant strategy, but, there’s absolutely, nothing, going, on, but, sex.

          3) Is anybody there to have sex?
          You: The vibe is not very sexual from the girls (but definitely from the guys). I would think that sex may happen on the night but likely at followup dates

          Wrong answer. Everyone is there to have sex.

          So. You see the hot girls surrounded by 5 guys at a time and phones being exchanged and you describe that as non-sexual. Compared to what? night game is the fucking jungle.

          The girls are there with ‘openings and walls’ and intentionally having many, many guys hit on them. It’s game on. So for must guys they have a ‘wall’, and for a selected guys they have ‘openings’, but ‘walls and openings’ are nothing but sex. This is sexual courtship game. The girls are there exclusively for the sex. If guy were not going to hit on them at this event, these girls would go somewhere else.

          All the girls that go to ‘meet with other girls’ are going with the tribe, so they can get the guys who fail at getting the hot girls. It’s distribution of resources. It’s not a girls-night. It’s “let’s gimme me a top guy” night.

          4) Give yourself a 1-10 rank in these three criteria during that event. A) Social B) In power C) Sexual
          You:
          Social = 7
          Power = 7 (I am able to control the groups that I am in but there are rare cases where I am speaking and get cut off)
          Sexual = 5 (I am obviously looking in the sexual context but pushing this too hard has me coming across as ‘thirsty’ as Flat Lander puts it. This has me keeping it lower – maybe this is a mistake, I dont know)

          Thanks. Being sexual is not about ‘pushing it hard’. Pushing is bottom guy. Check my super long comment about Blue’s text. The sexual expression is about flirting, generating arousal, and escalating. It all starts with flirting. When you say 5 do you mean you flirt half of the time? I didn’t see any instance of flirting in your description of the night, so that would be a 0 (you can’t escalate what you don’t initiate)

          5) Same rank question but in your day to day life
          You:
          Social = 6 (within office)
          Power = 9 (in office)
          Sexual = 3 (due to office)

          Alright. Try getting more activities during the week where you can be social and sexual, and in power without the forced hierarchy of the office. It will help a lot. 3 during the week explains how fish out of water you are during weekends.

          6) Are you the heart of the party? and why?
          You: Too many people around therefore cannot be heart of the party but also dont want to be center of attention for 50+ people. When I am in a particular group, I am directing the group in discussion bring the attention to me and directing it around as I move the conversation for people to respond.

          This question didn’t land. Being ‘the heart of the party’ means that the fun is happening around you because of you. That people come to surround you because they want your presence. The hot girls for example are the heart of their party. It’s not about directing the conversation and having people respond, is about people being around because they want to be in your circle. Why would they do that? because you’re cool as fuck, and you’re moving energy around you. So I take that you’re not ‘the heart of the party’ even if there’s a small group of 6 people, or a group of 2 people (you and a girl). How to fix that? go back to what I’ve been saying about how to socialize from top guy frame. It’s the same stuff from the text game though, same principles. Check the Charisma on Command (goggle that) videos too.

          7) Why do you things you dont want to do? (example listening to boring guys)
          You: Mention in Flat Lander response – to separate myself from the other guys. This evolved from where I was always just speaking with girls and not guys to speaking with guys first before girls.

          Wrong answer but this was a trap question. The answer is you should NEVER do things you don’t want to do.

          Zoom out.

          If you are the heart of your own party and you’re having fun and you’re a dominant confident guy you will be making things happen. You find boring people – you ditch them and go somewhere else. You go where you want to go and talk to whom you want to talk and it has nothing to do with ‘optics’. Go out and o EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND NOTHING ELSE.

          My whole diatribe about ‘top guy frame’ is about getting that done in the rest of your life too. Stop doing things you don’t want to do.

          On the other hand doing things you don’t want to do to impress some girls with the optics of it, is as bottom guy as it can get. Look closer:

          You are infringing your own boundary (doing things you don’t want to look) to APPEAR higher value than you are (or you wouldn’t do things you don’t want to do) to entice girls you want to impress into liking you. So you’re already building a relationship with these girls where your boundaries are violated. You violate your own boundaries to attract them. You’re inviting them to violate your boundaries.

          What would top guy frame do instead?

          Enforce his own boundaries, and stomp over the girl’s to see where they really are, arousing them in the meantime, and taking them home and banging them.

          All while you chat with boring guys to appear high value.

          There’s the gap.

          8) When you talk to these girls, are you trying to fuck them right there? are you ready to pull their pants down and take them somewhere?
          You: I say no as this may come across as ‘too strong’ but if the conversation is going positively, then I am ready to take them somewhere else.

          Wrong answer. The answer must be yes. These girls are there sampling cock, and you have to bring your cock to the party, and then it must be of the highest caliber, and you have to be ready to take them home or somewhere and bang them, in the shortest amount of time possible, and as soon as the girls give the opening for it.

          “if the conversation is going positively”

          Gotcha but it’s not about having a conversation. You tease, they give you openings, you escalate. The guys taking the girls home are doing that. The girls are saying YES. Are you giving them something to say YES to? Something to say YES, NOW?

          You have to.

          9) Why do you ask a girl when she is free to take her out, when she is already free, out, and with you, and horny? What do you think comes next?
          You: […] I asked to get a drink at another bar (while it was still early in night around 8:30) and continue there […] With other girls, sometimes it is also quite late and they say they have to travel to get back home. In retrospect, these are all walls likely from a problem on my side.

          Yes – what you’re missing is that you must flirt, look for arousal / openings / points of interest and escalate. This is not ‘taking them to another bar’. You’re asking a girl who is there, free, available, horny, went out to have sex – you are asking HER when is she free so you can take her out. This is a complete disconnect from reality. Whatever you think should happen on the next date when you take her out, is what should be happening here, right there, right now. Tease, flirt, command, neg, make laugh, roleplay, kino, lead, lead, lead, lead, lead, arouse the shit out of her.

          Then drop her and get a another girl (lol). Joke. Then take her home.

          Has nothing to do with ‘hey this bar is closing let’s continue in another venue’. What is in that for them? what are they get in that other venue, from you, that they are not getting there? in order for them to want to go with you somewhere else, they need to be already ‘wanting more’. What are you giving to them that they can’t get enough of? what part of you are they begging please please please give me more?

          See it?

          10) The other guys who are succesfully pulling these girls – these are the type of guys these girls are saying YES to. Describe them
          You: This is a difficult question for me to answer because I cannot always see who is continuing onwards with girls that night (I am not the doorman). In the case of last night for the polish, the guy was taller, wider and about same looking – was also much older looking. With other girls and guys, a lot of contacts are exchanged but I cannot tell if it is for social politeness or if something else would come of it.

          Ok, the question is: describe their attributes and social cues. Girls have a ‘type’, and it’s not just physical. Each one of them tends to go for the same kind of variant of top guy. It may be ‘older rich guy’ or ‘rock drum player’ or ‘celebrity designer’ or ‘bad boy type N4’ it doesn’t matter – pay attention to the kind of guys girls say YES to. They will be all different but all share similar traits, pay attention to both the differences, and what makes them same.

          Part of your search needs to be on which kind of girls you like and what flavor of top guy you’ll have to be to bang these girls. This is about picking your poison.

          11) If somebody ranked every man in that event from top guy to bottom guy, where do you stand? at the top, bottom, middle?/strong>
          You: Upper end of middle. […]

          Wrong answer. Or, unless you say you’re top guy, you’re bottom guy. When a girl comes to screen you, she has this question on her mind. Any response coming from you that is not ‘I am top guy’ means you just made her job much easier and you’re disposable for her now. It’s only after you express ‘Im top guy’ that she’ll shit test and engage in sexual courtship and give you some openings and traps and entertain banging you. This is why bullshitters have better game than honest good guys. You need to be top guy in every instance that the girl is going to measure you on, or otherwise the ‘puzzle’ gets more complicated as her initial arousal goes down.

          ” ‘Top guys’ are very few from what I can say and are generally of good looks + height + width. ”

          Behavior man, behavior.

          But you can take are of your grooming, wardrobe, fashion, and width (gym).

          “My problem is in progressing from there.”

          Need to wake the fuck up and take charge. You’re following the girls and mirroring them and not taking initiative. There are likely hundred of opportunities you’re not capitalizing on.

          So my tip for you would be to engage in twice the socialization and go more places during the week and avoid this particular group for a while, as it seems you’ve already stablished some toxic dynamics.

          The “talking briefly and not asking phone numbers etc”. Waste of time.

          Go to where you find interesting people. Flirt with girls. Escalate. Move on.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 12:32 pm

            Thanks – All valid point. I will need some time to digest.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 5:29 pm

            If I change my mindset based on your feedback for questions 1-3 then it makes sense if I play back all previous interactions.

            For sexual answer on point 4, I am flirting part of the time if the conversation is “going well”. Sometimes it is social chit chat (rapport problem that has been described before already), sometimes there are conversations where the girl is trying firing away yes/no/one word answer questions which I try to work with (turn around) but when I can feel a strong frame clash I just stop these. In others some, it goes well and there is some flirting but I pull it back on instinct (I would understand that I need to keep escalating the flirting higher and higher in the conversation. Will focus on this next time – need to practice flirting skills).

            For question 5, there are time constraints on this during the week but will see what I can do here. On the power aspect, it is not hierarchical but interpersonal at the same level organisational level (No point going into details)

            For question 6, this does occur mostly when I am just ‘having fun’ and I am not focused on the girl (there is likely an answer in here) When I am just focusing on the situation rather than the girl, there is a clear shift in the behaviours of everyone around me as I am interacting with the interaction rather than interacting with the people. As mentioned before, paradoxically, once I am looking to have a girl, my behaviour changes and things go wrong. The problem here is that I am focusing on the girl and talking to her rather than focusing on the situation of which the girl is a part of. The body language is not an issue as I am conscious of how I am oriented / seated and also express myself with body + facial expressions.

            For question 7, I will change this aspect consciously. I will looking for what may appear to be top guy group and focus on discussion with them or just focus on speaking with girls only.

            For question 8, this is a mindset issue for me along from questions 1-3. I will be conscious of this next time.

            For question 9, this is something that has been ‘itching’ me for a while already where from before behaviour (>4 weeks back) I was focusing on getting the number rather than just continuing the interaction there and then. I will not get numbers unless there is no other option to continue there and then.

            For question 10, this is noted.

            For question 11, when I talk about the looks + height + width, it is really on them being physically larger (eg. 1.85m-1.9m tall with associated width). On my side, grooming, wardrobe, fashion and gym as in order (for reference, I am 1.78m). On the behaviour part, I do notice something different from these guys in that they are slow to respond in behaviour to each other (ie. guy speaking with guy). I didnt focus on how things were going on but will pay more attention next time.

            On this point:
            Need to wake the fuck up and take charge. You’re following the girls and mirroring them and not taking initiative. There are likely hundred of opportunities you’re not capitalizing on.

            On waking up and taking charge, this is what is going on over the past 4 weeks where I am changing things in myself over time (you see it being posted on this page).
            On following girls, mirroring them and not taking initiative, I understand that there is a problem with me. My issue in resolving this problem is a difference between intellectually understanding what should be going on (eg. tease, flirt, kino, escalate, lead) versus the practical implementation (eg. In this situation, you should of done this. In that situation, you should of done that).

            While the initial post on this page was just 1-2 questions, it has evolved into what it is as the whole page now. It is also the reason, I am posting the interactions as I saw them to get opinions of what was good vs bad and also suggested actions next time. If someone says “blah blah blah this is gay” and nothing else, all it tells me is that this is a bad action and I should not be doing it but there is no advisable replacement action (should it be applicable).

            If we look at it in the context of text messages, it is improving on my side because I can see what I was typing in years before vs your suggested responses in more recent text exchanges. In this way, I can adjust my responses as it should be (or stop at particular points). This is also why I can identify what is going wrong with text chats (eg. robinhood + bluevalentine) but have difficultly in suggesting alternatives lines or actions.

            The questions you asked (the 11 questions), the first three are mindset question so are easy to adjust because it is just rejecting preconceived notion and then replacing with new notion. Questions 4 to 6 + 10 + 11 are about me and how I see myself. Questions 7 to 9 are about actions I should be taking which is the part that is not right in my head (as of yet).

            So given the above, it would be useful for me (and appreciated by me) if you are willing to take the time to breakdown my interaction from the drinks last night for me to see where I can change direction and also what right / wrong.

            Flat Landers words are harsh but I am trying to get the message out of his responses rather than any emotive connection to the words. If there are confirming views or similar explanations, then it helps me see a common message.

            To be clear, I am not trying to “outsource” my problem but am looking for pointers just like in the texts. End of the day, I have to fix all this stuff that is not right in myself and pointers help me speed up the process so that I dont stay in a constant loop of doing the same thing over and over.

            Reply
44. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 9:49 am

    @Flat Lander

    Thank you for taking the time to put forward your view.

    If I am reading your responses, I get the sense that it is coming across as ‘scripted’ where for EVERY girl you are saying that I have to be the ‘asshole’ at every point saying very harsh comments that would sound like I was raised in the ghetto without any social intelligence. There is coincidently someone who I see from time to time who says the most socially inappropriate things and the girls are very turned off by this guy. This isnt an impression but actual responses when I am talking with the girls and the girls turn closer to me and say ‘i hope [guys name] isnt coming to talk to me again’.

    My point with above paragraph is that while I can understand dismissiveness, the manner and actual responses you are recommending, I cannot in any good conscious believe would be appropriate. My rationale for this is one part social intelligence and one part historical experience where me being an asshole turned a YES girl into a NO girl within 15 min. She was a definite YES girl because she came out for coffee and was fully compliant but after being ‘an asshole’ she disconnected. I could see after a while that things were not right and her remarks were that ‘there is no point as she things I am pretty much an asshole’. Being dismissive is one thing while being an asshole is another.

    On other points:

    When having other guys around me, this is making the situation that I have available to me, work for me.
    While I cannot say that having ‘nerds’ (as you put it) around me will increase social status, it is not lowering it because my body language is different from theirs and others can see it. The girls looking in can also see a difference between me and them.

    On me smiling to the polish on the way to the toilet, it was to acknowledge her ‘hi look’ to me (also why would I not reward her opening me?).
    On the way back, the three kisses was to formally say hi and then I went away through the crowds. Something else is that I just have NOT SEEN ANY OTHER GUY MAKE KINO (social or otherwise) with the polish. Here I have differentiated myself again and contrasted with other guys. This has an effect on the guys more than the polish girl where the guys are asking themselves who I am.

    On the 0.50 cents, yes this was her attempt to snatch the frame and I pushed back by saying she owed me. In thinking about this, I could of said something like ‘no, you owe me. Come find me later to settle your bill’ or something of the sort. Her being surrounded by guys constantly is her ‘being an attention whore’. From my side, I am differentiating by keeping distance but am still ‘forced’ to interact with her as she is unlikely to come to me while being constantly being surrounded by attention as she saw me multiple times with good looking girls and she just sat in her corner and waited for guys to come to her (which they did).

    On this particular point:
    If you had better game, you would work to destroy her sense of entitlement and neg her hard.

    As you pointed out, she has guys floating all around her and by me not doing the same, I am focusing on her sense of entitlement (forcing her to doubt). This is what likely has me at the point where I currently am. The negging her hard (if I was to use your word style as you suggest) would give bad impression on me. As mentioned later, I did ‘neg her’ by calling her furniture, beautiful furniture.

    On the point of me providing girls free validation by sitting next to them while there is a group of guys around us – your view is wrong in my opinion. I am not sitting next to the girl for the girl next to me but for every other girl watching the group. The girl I am sitting next to, I am talking and teasing and doing contrary things to what the other guys are doing but am also being social with the guys (ie. I am positioning myself as ‘top guy’ of the group and the outside sees it). I have enough experience and results on this part that what I am doing is correct.

    On this point:
    She’s playing you and all the guys like a toy.

    She is definitely trying to get me to ‘fall in line’ like every other guy around her. Me speaking to the other guy before calling her furniture was to continue from the previous ‘passing the toilet’ interaction. This is also the first time I am actually looking to say more than a few words to her. Also talking to a guy who was BETTER LOOKING + TALLER + WIDER than me asking me if me and her were dating was something interesting to me and would of only occurred if I was doing something right here. I am sure that it also affected polish girl opinion of this guy.

    Me going to her and asking for my 0.50 cents from her at the bar was a poor move and was chase (looking in retrospect) but this was before I met the Bulgarian girl and got her todo it (which would of work well on its own) – there is likely something I can work with in future getting one good looking girl to ask something of another good looking girl on my behalf. But, the order of events is just how it happened and again I was forced to move forward as a lack of a move would of ended all interaction for likely forever.

    On your point of saying that she needs to be treated like a ‘disposable whore’ is also a bit strong but I do agree that she needs to be treated differently.

    On the troublemaker (aka Flat Lander called chicken girl), this was a brief interaction but yes I wanted to know what the story with her was and likely created my DEAD end here but at the same time, I was really losing interested the more her games went on.

    Moving onto the Bulgarian.

    You raised point:
    She fancies you. Most girls have no game, so they will maintain contact with interview questions. No need to break rapport with this one. Just spike the conversation (Hmm, nice legs… anyway you were saying?) and then bounce her to a quiet place where you can sit down side by side and kino escalate..

    Duh on ‘she fancies you’ – this I already know and also already established that girls do interview question with lack of anything else. We were in a very loud bar and there were no quiet corners. She was fine with social kino but when i poked her side she was not to happy about it and verbalised that she didnt like it as she still didnt know me that well (after 10min talking) so I had to back off. Many things can be read into this. As mentioned, I was trying to move the discussion to a non boring topic but the loudness of the place kept breaking the flow of the conversation because she couldnt always hear what I was saying and kept saying ‘I cant hear’ forcing me to repeat every 3rd sentence.

    On your point of her ‘being free that night’ and ‘me should of insta-dated her’ this is non-sense as I checked her logistics before. Without a flow in the conversation and sub-100% english, i am handicapped in talking and things likely would go nowhere. She did text me a moment ago saying it was her (just a ‘hi [my name], is it [girl name]). I need to think about how to respond to this and move it forward later today.

    On the point of inner game, there are obviously issues there (I do not deny) yet the issues are not one of value (ie.the girl is too hot for me) or of me trying to ‘fit into a group’. I feel I am stuck in a state where I do not know how to move the process forward while also trying consciously to get more experience with girl interaction within sexual context. This can be seen as thirst in what it is but I need more these varied type of girl interaction more than I need the sex. On the verbals, I am not looking for ‘canned material’ or some verbal trick but as a way to talk. There is obviously issues here as all prior posts have been detailing. Saying in general that girls want “joy, arousal, dread, outrage” is a ‘truism’ but doesnt allow me to formulate the words that come out of my mouth to speak with the girl. So when I am talking about ‘preparing answer’ it is about having thought through the likely points a girl may raise and already know how to answer using “joy, arousal, dread, outrage”.

    In general, I am not saying that you are wrong on every point but at the same time I am having difficulty believing that most points you say (and the way you say it) are the correct social responses. You also seem to call practically EVERYTHING someone does as ‘Gay’ which has me wondering about your responses / advice. All your comments on all my posts appear to have a ‘theoretical rulebook context’ to every point and again always saying ‘be the socially unfiltered asshole’ and always looking at the surface context based on what I am describing (maybe that is all there is and I am looking for something that is not there).

    I may not agree with the majority of your points but I still would like to hear your viewpoint for contrast and comparison against mine.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:20 pm

      If I am reading your responses, I get the sense that it is coming across as ‘scripted’ where for EVERY girl you are saying that I have to be the ‘asshole’ at every point saying very harsh comments that would sound like I was raised in the ghetto without any social intelligence.

      You say “scripted”, because you are a nice guy who’s pedestalizing girls.

      Han Solo is not ghetto.
      James Bond is not ghetto.
      But they are massive, entitled assholes.

      Until you figure out that being rude, dismissive, self-centered, self-amused turns girls on, you will not make progress.

      There is coincidently someone who I see from time to time who says the most socially inappropriate things and the girls are very turned off by this guy. This isnt an impression but actual responses when I am talking with the girls and the girls turn closer to me and say ‘i hope [guys name] isnt coming to talk to me again’.

      Bullshit. They are turned on by him and a bit scared. They run to you and play the damsel and want you and him to fight. More tingles!

      My point with above paragraph is that while I can understand dismissiveness, the manner and actual responses you are recommending, I cannot in any good conscious believe would be appropriate. My rationale for this is one part social intelligence and one part historical experience where me being an asshole turned a YES girl into a NO girl within 15 min. She was a definite YES girl because she came out for coffee and was fully compliant but after being ‘an asshole’ she disconnected. I could see after a while that things were not right and her remarks were that ‘there is no point as she things I am pretty much an asshole’. Being dismissive is one thing while being an asshole is another.

      That was a shit test. You failed it.

      When having other guys around me, this is making the situation that I have available to me, work for me.
      While I cannot say that having ‘nerds’ (as you put it) around me will increase social status, it is not lowering it because my body language is different from theirs and others can see it. The girls looking in can also see a difference between me and them.

      You are wrong. Yohami addressed that.

      On me smiling to the polish on the way to the toilet, it was to acknowledge her ‘hi look’ to me (also why would I not reward her opening me?).
      On the way back, the three kisses was to formally say hi and then I went away through the crowds.

      Formality makes pussies dry. Good job.

      Something else is that I just have NOT SEEN ANY OTHER GUY MAKE KINO (social or otherwise) with the polish. Here I have differentiated myself again and contrasted with other guys. This has an effect on the guys more than the polish girl where the guys are asking themselves who I am.

      Kino is sexual. There is no social kino.
      Are you suggesting that you are claiming her in front of other guys because you are her bestest beta girlfriend?
      So gay.

      Her being surrounded by guys constantly is her ‘being an attention whore’. From my side, I am differentiating by keeping distance but am still ‘forced’ to interact with her as she is unlikely to come to me while being constantly being surrounded by attention as she saw me multiple times with good looking girls and she just sat in her corner and waited for guys to come to her (which they did).

      You lose whatever jealousy you manage to generate by chasing her.

      As you pointed out, she has guys floating all around her and by me not doing the same, I am focusing on her sense of entitlement (forcing her to doubt). This is what likely has me at the point where I currently am. The negging her hard (if I was to use your word style as you suggest) would give bad impression on me. As mentioned later, I did ‘neg her’ by calling her furniture, beautiful furniture.

      Bad impression? “Furniture” got her outraged, therefore wet. Doubling down on that. She needs to be objectified. Hard.

      On the point of me providing girls free validation by sitting next to them while there is a group of guys around us – your view is wrong in my opinion. I am not sitting next to the girl for the girl next to me but for every other girl watching the group. The girl I am sitting next to, I am talking and teasing and doing contrary things to what the other guys are doing but am also being social with the guys (ie. I am positioning myself as ‘top guy’ of the group and the outside sees it). I have enough experience and results on this part that what I am doing is correct.

      Results are your penis in some girls pussy.
      Nothing else matters.
      Read Mystery Method on how that shit is supposed to work.

      Moving onto the Bulgarian.

      Duh on ‘she fancies you’ –

      Don’t “Duh” me, dude. Just don’t.

      this I already know and also already established that girls do interview question with lack of anything else. We were in a very loud bar and there were no quiet corners.

      More excuses, please.

      She was fine with social kino but when i poked her side she was not to happy about it and verbalised that she didnt like it as she still didnt know me that well (after 10min talking) so I had to back off.

      There is no social kino.
      This was a shit test.

      Many things can be read into this. As mentioned, I was trying to move the discussion to a non boring topic but the loudness of the place kept breaking the flow of the conversation because she couldnt always hear what I was saying and kept saying ‘I cant hear’ forcing me to repeat every 3rd sentence.

      Top guy doesn’t repeat himself. He doesn’t care.

      Blindingly obvious solution: Grab her by the hand and walk outside and talk there.

      *On your point of her ‘being free that night’ and ‘me should of insta-dated her’ this is non-sense as I checked her logistics before. Without a flow in the conversation and sub-100% english, i am handicapped in talking and things likely would go nowhere. *

      Yohami addressed that. You are 100% wrong and building more walls. You will not seduce her with words. You will seduce her by taking action and leading. Words are incidental.

      She did text me a moment ago saying it was her (just a ‘hi [my name], is it [girl name]). I need to think about how to respond to this and move it forward later today.

      If you think, you lose her. This is not chess.

      You: yeah, what do you want girl

      In general, I am not saying that you are wrong on every point but at the same time I am having difficulty believing that most points you say (and the way you say it) are the correct social responses.

      You’re stuck in a nice guy mentality.

      You also seem to call practically EVERYTHING someone does as ‘Gay’ which has me wondering about your responses / advice.

      When everything someone does is gay, well it’s appropriate to call that gay.

      When you start doing cool shit, I’ll call that cool.

      It’s also how you should start talking to girls when they say gay shit.

      All your comments on all my posts appear to have a ‘theoretical rulebook context’ to every point and again always saying ‘be the socially unfiltered asshole’ and always looking at the surface context based on what I am describing (maybe that is all there is and I am looking for something that is not there).

      Whatever, dude.

      I may not agree with the majority of your points but I still would like to hear your viewpoint for contrast and comparison against mine.

      If you agreed, you wouldn’t be asking for advice here/. You’d be banging these sluts.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 4:15 pm

        You are definitely right on this part:

        Blindingly obvious solution: Grab her by the hand and walk outside and talk there.

        It honestly did not occur for me to go just get my jacket and take her outside. Noted for next time.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 7:02 pm

          Look at the wider picture. If you get minimal compliance and investment, you must get more compliance.

          It’s a ramp or a ladder leading to sex.

          Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 6:32 pm

        The more I think about your comments, the more I am thinking that a large part of my problem may be that I am ‘too nice of a guy’ when speaking with girls and this is likely causing them to treat me ‘in a certain way’. The ‘too nice a guy’ is what is causing me to ‘fit a certain profile’ (in my mind) and restraining the things I can / should be saying. A major “issue” is knowing when female indignation is actually a turn on for her vs it becoming a complete insult that hurts her.

        While I still have difficulty digesting ‘complete asshole’ with specific harsh language, I think you really have a point here on my interactions where my responses need to be “sharper”.

        Calling the polish furniture was the correct move but I could of pushed this much further but as I dont know how far I can really push it, I instinctively pull it back. If I ‘remove nice guy’ for a moment in my mind and replay that time with what I thought was ‘top guy’ that went away, my responses would of been sharper to something like the following (to the guy):

        Me : You know in an office there is a generally a water cooler or coffee machine?
        Guy : yeah

        Me : and everyone, actually only guys, are standing around the water cooler just drinking and talking complete non-sense?
        Guy : yeah

        Me : [point to polish with both hands – like saying tadaaa]. This is that water cooler / coffee machine!!

        The more I replay last night interactions, the more I think things could of gone differently with specific girls not mentioned above. It may really be that your harsh comments are really breaking down my old behaviour / habits.

        So I guess this is a THANK YOU for being a bit harsher in your comments (but giving suggestions also helps me contrast)

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:46 pm

          just continuing my stream of thoughts.

          Me : yes yes, and just like a coffee machine it requires regular monthly maintenance having to flush out the tubes to keep everything in working order.

          Guy: blah blah blah

          Me : and the maintenance can be a messy affair but is required to keep the machine in working order ;-)

          @Flat lander
          Something like the above more appropriate?
          In your terminology, what would you actually call this? is this just a Neg or a blend of something?

          Once I have been able to connect the polish to a water cooler or coffee machine, I can just keep talking about the water cooler / coffee machine while actually talking about her.

          Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:56 pm

          Another level going further harshness …

          Guy : blah blah blah

          Me : Just today, i heard on the world wide interweb (aka internet) that there is this new type of coffee machine – totally innovative. I hear that when i gets fucked up, it produces its own milk. Amazing isnt it?
          Me : So if one wants a cafe latte …. [taadaa hand pointing]

          Me : Its been fun but I think I better just stop at this point. Enjoy the drink [I then leave]

          The above would likely force the guy to contrast with my statement with him going ‘nice guy’ instead of me unless the guy was playing along with my story.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 7:08 pm

            small typo but it changes the meaning of inuendo:
            “I hear that when it gets fucked up, it produces its own milk. Amazing isnt it?”

            Reply
          • Flat Lander says:

            05/20/2018 at 7:21 pm

            The best jokes are short. i wouldn’t go too far in the girl/object analogy as your audience will lose the plot (especially if they are drinking) and may actually hurt the girl’s feelings.

            Also be careful of white knights: they may attack you for attacking her “honour”.

            It’s about letting some air out of her head rather than smashing her to bits.

            In the case of furniture girl, her imagination is your best ally. Don’t spell out the grotty details with the milk and such or you will appear butthurt and nerdy.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 7:25 pm

              Noted.

              This is what I was talking about earlier. I dont have a solid sense of how far I can keep pushing it before it has become too much. Hence it was always playing safer than riskier.

              It looks like I need to stay at ‘Level 1’ and not go to ‘Level 2 or 3’.

              I could adjust ‘Level 1’ to start with “You know what this feels like?” while talking to the guys and then continue with ‘Level 1’ as detailed.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 8:11 pm

                Keep it short and start with the joke, then tag it. And talk to her.

                Me: You know, you’re like a coffee machine
                Her: what?
                Me: (to her and everybody around) you know, the office’s coffee machine? with all the guys waiting in cue to be served
                Her: (and other people) hahaha
                Me: (to her) Give me a cappucchino
                Her: hhahah
                Me: With milk
                Her: hahahah
                Me: (to the room) wait wait I’ve got my own milk

        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 7:14 pm

          The more I think about your comments, the more I am thinking that a large part of my problem may be that I am ‘too nice of a guy’ when speaking with girls and this is likely causing them to treat me ‘in a certain way’. The ‘too nice a guy’ is what is causing me to ‘fit a certain profile’ (in my mind) and restraining the things I can / should be saying. A major “issue” is knowing when female indignation is actually a turn on for her vs it becoming a complete insult that hurts her.

          Bravo. You are starting to catch on.
          All indignation is good.
          Girls need extreme emotions and only top men are strong and brave enough to provide these emotions. Why? Because they don’t care if they insult the girl or not.

          While I still have difficulty digesting ‘complete asshole’ with specific harsh language, I think you really have a point here on my interactions where my responses need to be “sharper”.

          Hallelujah!

          Calling the polish furniture was the correct move but I could of pushed this much further but as I dont know how far I can really push it, I instinctively pull it back.

          You have enough introspection to see that moment. Next time, don’t pull back. Instead double down.

          If I ‘remove nice guy’ for a moment in my mind and replay that time with what I thought was ‘top guy’ that went away, my responses would of been sharper to something like the following (to the guy):

          Me : You know in an office there is a generally a water cooler or coffee machine?
          Guy : yeah
          Me : and everyone, actually only guys, are standing around the water cooler just drinking and talking complete non-sense?
          Guy : yeah
          Me : [point to polish with both hands – like saying tadaaa]. This is that water cooler / coffee machine!!

          Not bad at all. It works well on high self-esteem girls and attention whores.
          You can then mix this up with her. “Today you are a potted plant. Pretty, but you need watering. Be a darling and get us a drink.”

          The more I replay last night interactions, the more I think things could of gone differently with specific girls not mentioned above. It may really be that your harsh comments are really breaking down my old behaviour / habits.

          Shock therapy, mate. It works very well with my clients, as it provides them an actual example of asshole behaviour.

          So I guess this is a THANK YOU for being a bit harsher in your comments (but giving suggestions also helps me contrast)

          You are welcome.

          Reply
45. rivelino says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:24 am

    “Nash shared in this blog that his game is good when a girl likes him, and it is quite bad when the girl doesn’t. Me too, it’s my situation. It’s like a girl who likes me, who I have great chemistry with, inspired great game out of me. My goal is to make it more conscious so I improve with more girls, not just Yes girls.” -Blue Valentine

    i agree with you completely, buddy. i am exactly the same way.

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 6:59 pm

      With all due respect, the sequence is

      good initial approach and game OR good looks OR high status.
      the girl is aroused and puts zero or low walls.
      unless you actively screw things up (start chasing her when she’s chasing you like L. in the latest Bulgarian fiasco), whatever you say that is congruent with her initial impression will not sabotage the lay.

      In other words you don’t generate better game because she likes you.

      You get laid because you just don’t sabotage yourself enough to turn her off.

      Reply
46. rivelino says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:25 am

    also, 316 comments! what can we all do to get a FORUM going?? nash, what if we all pitch in 20 bucks, would that help?

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 4:47 pm

      Im putting up a blog and forum as we speak

      Reply
47. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 1:12 pm

    Here is the follow on chat with the Bulgarian via text earlier today:

    Total time from line 02 -> line 20 is 7 min.

    [~~~~ Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
    [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

    [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
    [line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

    [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish
    [line 06] Her: Yes

    [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember
    [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

    [line 09] Her: Ha ha
    [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

    [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
    [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later
    [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

    [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
    [line 15] Her: Some day
    [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]
    [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]
    [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be

    [line 19] Me : Ciao ciao
    [line 20] Her: Ok ciao

    [~~~~ Break down ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Line 01 is at 4:40am where I last spoke with her at 1:30am the night before
    Line 02 me responding (I have no nickname to use here therefore none is better)
    Line 03 it is not sure if she referring to me talking to her or the drinks
    Line 04 is because I decided to leave her and mingle after giving her my number
    Line 05 is me doing question + statement. The drinks were ok-ish (too loud)
    Line 06 she confirms the same (or just following my opinion)
    Line 07 she is not sure if I remember. This feels like a trap for the guy to say ‘ofcourse I remember’
    Line 08 I avoid direct response and invert trap + flirt
    Line 09 she receives it well
    Line 10 she corrects me. Is she trying to be certain I remember her or is this something else?. I recall yohmai saying something here when girl correct guy but dont remember and cant find reference
    Line 11 she is telling me what she is doing. Could also be a trap for bottom guy to say ‘I wish I was there too’
    Line 12 she is telling me what todo and telling me we will talk later (was not consciously aware in real-time)
    Line 13 I instinctively respond to not let her have the last word. Tell her that she should be here with me enjoying time (not with friends). This was instinct wording (connecting her back to me)
    Line 14 her video is to support what she is doing? or to try to get me to say it is nice? Her video came in split second after my last message
    Line 15 she just says some day (translation = maybe)
    Line 16 supports her maybe and flirts with me
    Line 17 the emojie fondeling may be for her cocktail
    Line 18 I give a [emojie thumbs up] to her line 15+16 – reward response. Also tell her to text me when that would be (ie. I am not going to propose anything here)
    Line 19 I end text chat
    Line 20 She says ok to line 18 and ends text chat

    [~~~~ General notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    I feel that the above is better in incorporating what I have been learning over the past 4 week in that I am avoiding the walls and taking the opportunities. But even with this, I am sure Yohami will find something to kick my ass with on the above.

    Yohami?

    Reply
    • Flat Lander says:

      05/20/2018 at 2:55 pm

      Here is the follow on chat with the Bulgarian via text earlier today:
      Total time from line 02 -> line 20 is 7 min.

      It should be several hours.
      You are showing thirst by chatting in real time.

      [~~~~ Text start ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

      [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
      [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

      Don’t do emojis.

      [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
      [line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

      She wants your cock.

      [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish

      She is chasing and you are punishing her.

      [line 06] Her: Yes
      [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember

      And she loves being punished and pushed away. This is how you will fuck her.

      [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

      Great line, dude. Assuming the sale. Dismissive. I love it.

      [line 09] Her: Ha ha
      [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

      She’s qualifying herself. Good job.
      Perfect illustration of the tingle being born in the defensive posture.

      [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
      [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later

      THIS IS WHERE YOU SHOULD HAVE STOPPED.
      RIGHT THERE.
      STOP CHATTING.
      DON’T REACT.
      DON’T COMMENT.
      DO YOU SEE IT?

      [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

      And you are flipping to chasing her.

      [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
      [line 15] Her: Some day

      And she’s back in the driving seat, because you failed to lead.

      [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]

      You chased her while she was chasing you. Boom, here goes a new wall.

      [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]

      You are her new girlfriend now.

      [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be
      You are confirming that she has the initiative now. You are giving her full control of the frame.

      Advice:
      Forget about her. You are now in her beta orbiter circle. She will marry you when she’s old and used up.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 4:22 pm

        [line 12] is what triggered my followup response to not be ‘taking instructions from her’ (ie. being led by her) but at the same time I can see your alternate perspective in the role of chasing.

        Be interesting to see if Yohami agree or says something else.

        On further action, there is nothing todo from here. She either comes back and starts a discussion again or not.

        Reply
        • Flat Lander says:

          05/20/2018 at 6:49 pm

          [line 12] is what triggered my followup response to not be ‘taking instructions from her’ (ie. being led by her) but at the same time I can see your alternate perspective in the role of chasing.

          What instructions? She said bye-bye and went back to snorting coke off her friend’s ass.

          Nothing she writes should warrant a response.

          Being reactive lowers your status in her eyes unless your reaction is outrageous.

          Optimal responses:
          – silence

          Other possible responses (in line with you being a funny, energetic dude who takes no shit from a silly girl)

          “That will be 2 dollars. You can pay me later.”
          8=====D~~~~~~ ( . Y . )
          birthday cat pic

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 6:59 pm

            The more I think about this over and over, you are likely right on this.
            Noted for future.

            Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 8:44 pm

      My read

      ======================

      [line 01] Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]

      She opens you, she’s desperately DTF

      [line 02] Me : Hey ;-)

      Good, reward her with a nickname. Emoticons are fine for flirting, so dismiss Flatlander on this one.

      Emoticons are death when NOT flirting, don’t use them to be nice. Flirting is fine.

      [line 03] Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday

      She’s engaging in beta rapport. This is the ‘commenting on the niceties of a ‘third thing’ that it’s death when you do it – but girls do it all the time. Girls are also betas an alphas, she’s beta. Lead her.

      [[line 04] Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]

      She even stacks. Nice night! I hope you remember me. Desperate as fuck. In her mind you’re already banging another hottie and is scared you’ll slip away.

      [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish

      She’s chasing and you’re punishing her. DON’T.

      Me: Yeah it was fun

      [line 06] Her: Yes

      [line 07] Her: Oohhh so you don’t remember
      [line 08] Me : I remember this girl with black hair that was sitting to my left who was chatting me up ;-)

      Best line from you so far.

      [line 09] Her: Ha ha
      [line 10] Her: Not black but brown

      You even got the hair color wrong. This is playing directly into her “do you remember” so now it turned into a game.

      [line 11] Her: Its a beautiful day and I am with some friends at [far far away location] right now
      [line 12] Her: Enjoy the sun and will talk later

      She’s getting fucked by Mario and Pablo. But nice she thought of you during the sex break

      Me: Have fun ;-) (and it’s goodbye for now)

      [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

      This is shit game plus a million, for more reasons that you think.

      First, she just said “bye” so that’s a wall. And you are replying to that wall with ESCALATION. You’re escalating on the wall. This is the same shit that I mentioned on Blue’s text and the MAJOR red flag that exposes bottom guy.

      Bottom frame thinks walls are ladders or something. It would be funny if it wasn’t pathetic. Look at it. Closer.

      She’s been open and down to fuck since the first comment. You didn’t escalate there. You even punished and negged her. Punish / neg is viable if you’re an asshole. Still, when she was open, you said NO.

      Now that she’s breaking rapport and saying bye and giving a little wall, then you say YES to that.

      You ignored / punished the opening, and rewarded the wall.

      This is what fucks up your game.

      But with the specifics it gets even worse! don’t believe me? read the fucking text

      Her: Its a beautiful day
      You : It is a lovely sunny day

      Not only you decided to escalate on the wall – you’re mirroring.

      So you went from ‘casual asshole’ to ‘beta follower who will match her frame and let her dictate the setup and play into her frame because doesn’t know how to lead’

      Your previous arrogance gets reframed with this newer move. “ah, he doesn’t know how to lead” gone.

      Stop mirroring. Re-read everyone of your texts before sending them and make sure you’re not parroting back whatever the girls say at you.

      Same in person. That “50 cent” shit was you parroting her lines back at her. Stop that behavior. It’s beta. You’re letting her lead you.

      You can use the same framing but you need to take it somewhere else.

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: what?
      Her: The bathroom charges 50 cents…
      Me: And how do I owe you that money?
      Me: Did I make you come too hard an you made a mess over there?

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: We didn’t even marry and you’re already searching for my wallet

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: That’s cheap. Do you charge by the hour?
      Me: What can you do for one dollar?

      Or

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: What can you do for one dollar?

      In every case Im taking the game she’s giving me and LEADING in a new direction. Not this bullshit

      Her: You owe me 50 cents for the bathroom
      Me: No you owe me 50 cents

      [line 14] Her: [Sends 5 sec video from phone of her out on water – her POV of water and river banks]
      [line 15] Her: Some day
      [line 16] Her: Everything is possible [emojie smilie wink]
      [line 17] Her: Enjoy [emojie sun + emojie +cocktail + emojie smilie with hands fondeling]

      Even though you did HORRIBLE game by escalating on her wall, she didn’t notice it was horrible game and got all aroused. Now she’s daydreaming. She’s likely thinking of having kids with you. She’s giving you an opening of the size of a house.

      If you want to fuck her, then go ahead – tell her: call me. Escalate here.

      [line 18] Me : [Emojie thumbs up] Text me when that would be

      And instead of escalating when she’s open like a chinese contortionist, you decided to break rapport and end it. So you’re again punishing her for being open. It’s very clear the kind of game you’re trying to play. You punish openings and reward walls. You want girls who wont open and will give you shit. Funny.

      On top of that you pass the lead completely. Here’s how you can close the lead without ceding power

      Me: Ping me when you’re back

      That’s a clear cut command / call to action. In comparison:

      “Text me when that would be”

      When WHAT would be? should she text you when ‘everything is possible’ :-D

      Man.

      [line 19] Me : Ciao ciao

      And you set a wall. Haha.

      [line 20] Her: Ok ciao

      She’s a horny and confused girl. Mario, your turn!

      ===========

      Hope that helps.

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 9:09 pm

        On the 0.50 cents story

        This line helps me understand a few things in what I should be doing for these kind of situations
        In every case Im taking the game she’s giving me and LEADING in a new direction.

        If I take the above and try to work with it (from instinct), the discussion would of gone something like:

        Her: 0.50 cents please
        Me : what?

        Her: 0.50 cents for the bathroom
        Me : You are the janitor here? Maybe next time I use the bathroom, I leave a tip (then walk off)

        The above would be working against her ‘posh girl’ nickname.

        On the bulgarian text exchange

        On this line:
        [line 05] Me : Are you talking about the event last night? It was ok-ish
        I was not thinking of punishing her. I thought she was talking about the drinks last night and her message came in when just as I sent mine. So there is an interpretation that I am punishing her.

        Action here is to slow down the speed of message exchange to avoid this type of issue.

        I need a bit more details on this part as it is not clear to me:
        If you want to fuck her, then go ahead – tell her: call me. Escalate here.

        The other parts were my fault and misinterpretation of what I thought I understood from before. While I didnt want her to take the lead (which she wasnt trying to take it), I effectively gave her the lead and then when I thought I took the lead back, I left a wall.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 9:37 pm

          Escalate on openings. Your exact same line about the sunny day and come to my terrace would have worked as escalation if you had led with it, when she gave you an opening

          =================

          Her: Hey [my name], it’s me [Girl name]
          Me : Hey ;-)
          Her: Hey …it was nice yesterday
          Her: Hope you remember me. From drinks [emojie smilie wink]
          Me: I remember, you’re the sexy brunette
          Her: :D :D
          Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

          Do you see it? that’s taking the opening, rewarding her, and escalating.

          =================

          Now something to REALLY think about here

          Her: 0.50 cents for the bathroom
          Me : You are the janitor here? Maybe next time I use the bathroom, I leave a tip (then walk off)

          I wrote four (4) examples where I took her framing and made it SEXUAL, some more flirty and some more outrageous, all with the clear framing of making her ‘hahaha’ which would be followed by escalation.

          You took the idea, removed all the sexual innuendo, and walk away?

          How are you going to fuck her like that?

          Are you trying to have sex with her?

          Please take a good look and explain what’s the thought process where.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:38 pm

            *Please take a good look and explain what’s the thought process here.

            Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:42 pm

            Specifically

            1) Why did you remove the sexual innuendo?

            2) Why did you decide it’s a good idea to walk away (and create a wall)?

            Do you see how making that joke and making it outrageous will arouse her, which will maker her go in compliance, which is the path to escalation to fuck her?

            Or what do you think it’s happening?

            :-D

            What is the purpose of taking her frame, making it asexual and waking away?

            Will she grow a magic dildo an chase you down a dark alley when you’re not expecting it? what game are you trying to play? how do things are supposed to work in your current roadmap?

            Why turn the exchange into a wall?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:56 pm

              On the questions:

              1) Reading about making her cum hard that there was a mess while her being surrounded by 5 other guys seems odd. Instinctively my mind wanted to keep the interaction ‘clean’ here. Of the options presented, the “what you can get for a dollar” is something I can think have working here

              2) This was the dismissive part of the dismissive asshole

              On the arousal, I was not thinking of arousal at all but to dismiss her statement and move on. In short, not be like the other guys around her.

              [~~~~]

              I can see my playing the theme up (ie. turning it into a joke and teasing her). My mind is not tuned (at this stage) to sexualize everything that is said and done. This would likely be from the questions 1-3 on my view of what is going on.

              On the roadmap, the idea was to differentiate and then speak with her later on from the point of view “I am not doing everything you say”. However considering all the recent posts made, I can see that the perspective (I use this word instead of frame) on what is happening in the social setting is not correct in my mind.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:04 pm

                “1) Reading about making her cum hard that there was a mess while her being surrounded by 5 other guys seems odd. ”

                My lines assume that she told you about the 50 cents in a 1v1 interaction she she was coming from the bathroom and it was you and her and nobody else. All these lines are ‘personal’ and told to her face

                BUT.

                If she gave you the first version of ‘you owe me 50 cents’ in front of 5 guys, that is a MAJOR PUTDOWN

                In that case I’d actually say all the outrageous lines in succession and ROAST THE SHIT OUT OF HER

                Me: what?
                Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
                Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
                Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
                (hahahahahaha)
                Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
                Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
                (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
                Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?

                No-fucking-body messes up with your status and wants to repeat the experience.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:05 pm

                Me: What can you do for a dollar?
                Me: Wait I have half a bitten chocolate somewhere… wait

                She’d be the joke for the rest of the night.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:07 pm

                “On the roadmap, the idea was to differentiate ”

                Differentiate yourself by being a confident self reassured mofo who takes no shit from anyone and gets what he wants.

                If you’re trying to differentiate by trying to not being ‘like the other guys who circle her’ you’re missing the point, because she’s actually fucking some of these guys and not you.

          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 9:45 pm

            On the text chat, I understand how it should of gone.

            On the 0.50 cents story, the thought process here was ‘dismissive asshole’ but now it seems that doing this is not right.

            If I put aside ‘dismissive asshole’ discussion with flat lander and reread your proposes responses, I should be teasing her while maintaining a sexual angle?

            It may be semantics but the words (dismissive, asshole, teasing) mean specific things to me.

            I am now confused between yourself and flat lander.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:51 pm

              You’re not understading Flatlander’s stuff. You’re thinking of an uncalibrated asshole, while he’s repeating ‘calibrated asshole’. You’re thinking from a nice guy midset where an asshole is unlikable. Flatlander is speaking about a type of asshole who gets all the girls because skips social norms and is unafraid and leads.

              He said Han Solo. Look at Han Solo. Look at my lines. Even the chat with the girl from the bus. Or my own text examples. Am I a gentleman?

              ========

              All my example responses are sexual, from the ‘I made you come’ to the ‘marry me / look for my wallet’ to ‘what can you do for one dollar’. They are all sexual and said in a commanding and challenging relaxed voice with a smirk on my face while looking straight into her eyes while I picture her naked with my dick inside of her and her boobs bouncing in all directions.

              That’s a ‘dismissive asshole’

              What am I dismissing? that she tries to control me and frame me in away way. That she sets any kind of walls for me. That she attempts to one-up me. What she will find every time she tries to do a power play like that, is that I’ll call her a one-dollar-per-hour-whore, but in a way that she still feels enticing and is flirty. Because I don’t give a fuck about her game and we’re playing mine.

              That’s the ‘dismissive asshole’

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:12 pm

                Then the word ‘asshole’ is not applicable here and just ‘dismissive’.

                it may be cultural connotations that is caused me to misunderstand.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:16 pm

                How about ‘jerk’

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 10:27 pm

                not asshole
                not jerk

                just dismissive in a humours / teasing / sexual way depending on the context from what I am reading.

                The slant of the tease does not matter as I see it all the same.

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 9:56 pm

              The ‘calibrated asshole’ has less regards about other people’s boundaries so he GOES FOR WHAT HE WANTS.

              When you are doing the ‘janitor’ remark and then walk away, are you going for what you want?

              Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 11:39 pm

          Just occurred to me

          On this line
          [line 13] Me : It is a lovely sunny day, you should be here with me having a drink on the terrace

          I said this on reflex as I recall reading in one of Nash posts that a girl said in a chat with him that it was such a ‘beautiful day’.

          my brain must of connected this with ‘she wants me to ask her out’ and ‘lead’ and then the above malfunction occurred which tumbled down everything. Obviously the context is different between the two scenarios.

          Reply
48. Lucretius says:

    05/20/2018 at 10:25 pm

    @yohami

    On this:
    “Differentiate yourself by being a confident self reassured mofo who takes no shit from anyone and gets what he wants.

    If you’re trying to differentiate by trying to not being ‘like the other guys who circle her’ you’re missing the point, because she’s actually fucking some of these guys and not you.”

    The more you explain, the more I sense that I know where I should be doing / not doing something at particular but the way (and strength) in which it should be done is the problem (just to repeat it one more time).

    If someone socially is ‘ragging me’ (ie. putting me down), there is an instinctive reaction to say the words ‘just fuck off’. But in thinking about this, saying ‘just fuck off’ is almost like an admission of ‘defeat’ because there is no ‘tact’ and does not show ‘savy’. It feels like I need to quickly evaluate everyones ‘value position’ in the social context and I have to ‘knock’ the person that is putting me down by ‘teasing / making them the object of laugher’. This is where the janitor line came from. After going back again on the teasing aspect, it seems more appropriate to ‘acknowledge and turn into joke’ the situation. By this the lines would be:

    Me : You see that guys? You get close to her and she already asking for money. She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks

    My thought process on the above is to:
    1) acknowledge that she did her ‘trick’ (ie. I am not hiding away from it)
    2) turn her trick around and frame her away from posh girl toward tart / gold digger / prostitute
    3) say that she is cheap by saying 2 bucks instead of 20 bucks

    You asking me ‘thought process’ questions is what is helping me see the root of the problem here.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/20/2018 at 10:33 pm

      You can say ‘fuck off’ if that’s the outcome you want. What is the outcome you want? my lines were sexual and on her face so she’d get turned on. What is your desired result? this goes back to being in power, which leads to this:

      ==========

      Me : You see that guys? You get close to her and she already asking for money. She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks

      Again you took my lines and made them softer. Why?

      In my lines Im the judge. I don’t ask for the opinion of the ‘guys’, and Im talking to HER:

      Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
      Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
      Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
      (hahahahahaha)
      Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
      Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
      (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
      Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?

      Compare.

      I am talking down to her. ME. I. I am the judge. The crowd laughs, because Im doing this in public. But it’s ME.

      Compare

      “You see that guys?”

      You diluted your own power, now are like asking for validation from the guys before you even pass down judgement. Weak.

      “You get close to her and she already asking for money. ”

      Magnitudes weaker than implying she’s a cheap whore.

      “She starts at 0.50 cents. Now imagine what you get for 2 bucks”

      You leave it all up for imagination. Aka, you didn’t lead. You didn’t bring it home.

      Why?

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:36 pm

        You took the ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ out of my lines, and they are there for a reason.

        Stomping on her boundaries NEEDS to happen. I think you want to be a nice guy at all costs, so try to niceguy your way into the negs.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:43 pm

          This is a view point.

          I am NOT trying to be the nice guy at all costs.

          What I am trying to avoid is being the ‘uncalibrated asshole’ or ‘socially incompetent idiot’. It could be this fear that is wedging me into what you and flat lander are seeing as ‘nice guy’. I see around the ‘socially incompetent’ individuals and they are completely unaware that they are them.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            Be Han Solo.

            Do you have any friend who’s good with women? can you befriend any?

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/20/2018 at 10:57 pm

              Not good with girls as in player (yohami definiton).
              Friends I know have a girl friend and stay with them.

              I am the one breaking out of having a girlfriend because of red pill but this is a whole line of discussion not relevant here.

              I would have to keep my eye out while at a bar and look for the ‘top guys’ and see if I can befriend them there.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:00 pm

                Yes, see if you can find any real life ref you can presence in real time. If not check this ‘fuckboy’ tim guy, he just released a product. Everything I’ve seen from him is legit and ‘top guy’ oriented.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:08 pm

                I have followed ‘fuckboy’ tim in some of his videos.

                The issue for me is ‘interpretation’ as shown in the bulgarian chat. It is not a case of me not knowing a concept exists (ie. walls + door) but of me being able to identify them properly.

                Tim may explain something and give an example (just like you do) and in that moment, I will think it makes sense based on what I interpret but then when I apply it, I fail at it.

                This is why I am keeping away from any ‘product’ at the moment and looking for feedback on my real world experiences (main reason for why I am posting everything verbatim here to get feedback from people such as yourself).

                Everything looks fine to me until it is shown not to be fine.

                While I am thankful that you are taking the time to analyze and propose alternative suggestions, I also can understand if it can be a bit much due to time constraints. If you offering, i am fine to commit some cash if required to analyze my interactions (ie. move off-blog).

                Alternatively, I am also fine to continue here.

                Going forward, I will need to keep an eye out for top guys and befriend them (ie. actual rapport)

      • YOHAMI says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:39 pm

        “you see that guys? she’s meean!”

        In a way you turned into a damsel in distress there. Why?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:45 pm

          I dont see how it turned into ‘damsel in distress’ as I was directing the comments to the guys.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            Reverse roles – imagine there’s a girl telling the 5 guys that some other guy is a jerk: damsel in distress trope.

            Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 11:01 pm

            I can see if you reverse roles but would have to address it if it is ‘brought to the fore’ by the girl (ie. she responds again on that).

            I dont know what I would respond but would have to see what she says. My guideline for me would be to keep it humours and ‘light hearted’ (ie. avoid feeling hurt or insulted)

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 11:07 pm

              k, lose any fear you have of hurting or insulting other people. That’s where the ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ needs to come from.

              Even if you restrain yourself, it needs to be there. Otherwise you’ll soften your negs the same way you’ve been modifying my lines here, turning them into castrated little puppies instead of letting them be the wild beasts that would have aroused the girl.

              And there’s no win on being ‘nice’ and respectful when a girl is putting you down. Niceties there only mean you don’t fully grasp what’s going on. When a girl puts you down and you let her, she will continue the abuse until you’re out of the tribe and dead. It doesn’t matter if she’s a fine and caring creature otherwise: Girls will destroy you if you let them. They are in charge of purifying the tribe. If they come down on you, you must reassert the upper position on the hierarchy or you’re dead. There’s no win in being a gentleman when she’s being a bitch.

              Don’t be afraid of hurting them, don’t be afraid of being too strong. You’re not even scratching the surface yet.

              And whenever you see a guy being a jerk, girls only see arousal.

              They are fucked up like that.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:19 pm

                This surprisingly does reconcile with a map from previous experiences. In more than three cases where a girl has ‘treaded’ on my boundary by trying to put me down (eg. you just a little blah blah …), I have literally said ‘fuck you’ while smiling / laughing with the words coming across as positive and showing middle finger … and the girls have giggled at it.

                I know there is something there although I have not distilled it into ‘the girl trying to put me down therefore I must push back’.

                The 0.50 cents from polish I took as just a joke and I didnt recognise it as a put down whereas these three other cases, they were clear overt attempts at putting me down.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/20/2018 at 11:26 pm

                On the above comment where I have told the girls ‘fuck you’ and given them the finger and they giggled, I did not consider myself an ‘asshole’ or a ‘jerk’ at any point.

                I just pushed back a bit stronger and overtly while smiling and laughing recognising that they were trying to ‘take the piss’ out of me as the english say.

                For comparison, I recall in my youth where I recall seeing a group of guys walking past a guy that was closing the boot of his car. One of the guys from the group, smacked the guys head onto the boot of the car and laughed as he walked off. Nothing else happened. In that moment, the guy that smacked the other guy was seen as ‘an asshole’ by me. This is the mental image i have for this word.

                For ‘jerk’, I just dont have a mental or sensory image to describe what that is in the same way as I can for ‘asshole’.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 6:35 am

                “In that moment, the guy that smacked the other guy was seen as ‘an asshole’ by me. ”

                That was an unnecessarily abusive asshole bullying a guy who didn’t deserve it. Or id he? is there a backstory?

                Regardless – when a girl sees that ‘asshole’ her vagina tingles an wants him. Why?

                Because the asshole who put another man down and got away with it is obviously above in the pecking order.

                Which is what triggers female desire.

                Wake up.

                And focus on the ‘above in the pecking order’ part of that phrase.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 7:40 am

                There was no backstory – it was just random abusiveness in the moment. I saw it as ‘asshole’ because it was completely unprovoked. If it was provoked then I would not of thought of it.

                On the point of ‘pecking order’, this is well understood and there no issue on my side. At NO point, am I deferring to another guy or talking him up in front of girls or seeking validation from him or moving aside for someone. Perhaps in the first polish interaction from weeks ago, I was ‘waiting for my turn to talk’ but in last time with polish I was not and also went to speak with what I thought was ‘top guy’ and he went away. If I was thinking that he was higher in pecking order and ‘scared of it’, then I would of not gone up and talked to him in front of her.

                In myself, I am independent of other male opinion and can actively joke (without self deprecate) on what they are saying about me and ‘take it somewhere’ (ie. guy talk). The malfunction part is always when it is about the girl or from the girl.

                What I am understanding from the recent exchanges is that when it is ‘battle of guy vs guy’ in hierarchy, I know I am on top (in multiple ways) but when the girl is attempting to ‘poke my position’ on the hierarchy, I sometimes fail because I do not always see what she is doing (ie. the put own from the 0.50 cents story) or I do sense something but dont know how to handle it (ie. the 0.50 cents story where I mirrored instead of took it somewhere).

                For my case personally, the words of ‘asshole’ and ‘jerk’ I need to discount because of my understanding of these words but given the exchange I have a closer sense of what it should be (ie. ‘asshole / jerk’ be willing to tread on girl boundaries of feelings whereas ‘nice guy’ want to always be ‘proper’ and avoid girl feeling pushes).

      • Lucretius says:

        05/20/2018 at 10:40 pm

        In my context, I am talking to the guys and putting the girl down in the eyes of the guys.
        The leaving it up to their imagination is really to have them imagining which will cause the girl to also imagine what they must be imagining. The end objective here is not to turn on the girl but to knock the girl for trying to put me down. The situation came about as I went past her to get to the toilet.

        In your context, you are talking to the girl while amusing the crowd. This I can see if I was initially in the group of 5 + girl and then went to the bathroom and then came back up to rejoin the group. Here the situation is different where I am still interacting in the group itself and then again it is a ‘mini-game’ of raising / lowering social value within the group.

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/20/2018 at 10:49 pm

          Focus.

          “In my context, I am talking to the guys”

          YES. Why are you talking to the guys? Talk to HER. The vagina is in HER. Are you going to bang the guys?

          If you and me are in that same group, and you talk to the guys, and I talk to her, who is going to fuck HER?

          “The leaving it up to their imagination is really to have them imagining which will cause the girl to also imagine what they must be imagining. ”

          Which is convoluted and magnitudes weaker than just telling her “you’re so cheap, I’ll give you a 10 cent bonus if you go the extra mile”

          “The end objective here is not to turn on the girl”

          WHY would that be your objective?

          ========

          My lines work in 2 context.

          Original context she’s coming back from the bathroom and we’re alone. There I tease her to make her go hahaha, arouse her, escalate, get closer, make out, taxi, bang.

          Modified context she says the 50 cents explicitly to bring me down in front of 5 dudes, and as a result she gets completely humiliated but also turned on.

          Win win.

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/20/2018 at 10:52 pm

            How about:

            Me : 0.50 cents? you mean to get condoms for later on between you and me. Dont worry, I have them already.

            Reply
            • YOHAMI says:

              05/20/2018 at 10:55 pm

              Depends, which context would this be?

              1v1 could work, though it’s convoluted. Better line:

              Me: for condoms? don’t worry I’ve got them

              For the 5 guys context where she’s putting you down, she needs a put down herself and flirting means ‘flirting with a wall’, so flirting there backfires.

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 7:49 am

                I keep trying to add “between you and me” to connect her and me in the interaction but now I think that this connection has to be “implicit in the wording”.

                The context was 5 guys. The reasons there was a sexual component there was to see how I could still speak with the ‘vagina’ but something still missing in my understanding.

                If I try again, my line would be flirting because I am connecting sex between her and me whereas I need to put her down in the context of sex. Is this right?

                On your set of lines together:
                
                Me: what?
                Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)
                Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)
                Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40?
                (hahahahahaha)
                Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathoom? jeez
                
                Me: Did you come to hard and made a mess over there?
                (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)
                
                Me: Don’t you have like a free pass for the whole year or something?
                

                All the lines in italics I can understand (ie. I am making fun on her in front of the guys as her being cheap with slant of hooker but then switching to for her to clean the bathroom). The part I dont get is the ‘come too hard and made a mess’ because here it feels like I am ‘attacking her honour’ but the other lines dont feel like that.

                Why is the ‘come too hard’ line included?
                Would it work without this line?

49. YOHAMI says:

    05/21/2018 at 8:40 am

    Lucretius,

    The part I dont get is the ‘come too hard and made a mess’ because here it feels like I am ‘attacking her honour’

    What honor? aren’t you trying to put your dick inside of her?

    What is she doing with the 5 guys around her? isn’t every guy there trying to put their dicks on her?

    What is she doing specifically: is there for any other reason than sampling many cocks, up to 5 at a time, then to pick 1-3 winners and fuck them as soon as possible?

    What is she doing specifically with you? isn’t it to put you down, in front of the other guys, giving the other guys the explicit cue that it’s ok that they also bully you?

    HONOR?

    WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MAN

    =========

    Now look at the calibration of being an asshole. Pokes, pings, tease, escalation, boundary pushing

    The reason why I say “put the joke first, then tag it”. as opposed to your approach which was “build the joke”

    When you’re building the joke, as in “listen guys blah blah” you’re asking for permission to say the outrageous thing. At the end the outrageous thing is to call her a ‘water cooler’ or coffee machine. So you ‘ramped’ into the outrageous thing. You got compliance from the tribe, then escalated.

    Do you see it? that’s your ramp.

    But it’s weak.

    Why is it weak? because you’re asking for permission before escalating. You got all the permission in the world before saying the outrageous thing. You’re a little boy asking before making a move. This is also why you switch to mirroring and end up following the girls and not leading.

    Now look and how Im doing it.

    FIRST CROSS THE BOUNDARY, then tag.

    FIRST ACT WITHOUT ASKING FOR PERMISSION.

    SAY THE OUTRAGEOUS THING FIRST.

    But you still need to ramp.

    So

    Her: 50 cents
    Me: what?

    That’s a pause and it breaks her narrative already. That’s a wall. The ‘what’ already breaks and puts a stop to her nonsense

    Me: 50 cents, per hour? you’re rather cheap (crowd goes hahaha)

    THIS is already outrageous, but it’s small. It it still the beginning of a joke, it’s still a ramp. The result of this is she gets irritated but horny, and the guys will laugh. She irritated and horny and people laughing though, it’s COMPLIANCE, and I will milk this compliance and get a big payoff

    Me: I’d thought you’d charge more. At least 75 cents (hahahaha)

    Tagging the joke, more laughs

    Me: Maybe 60 cents. 40? (hahahahahaha)

    Tagging the joke, her face is red, Im obviously over the line, I retreat and give space

    Me: Ah it’s to clean the bathroom? jeez

    Oh look at that, I behave, I show restraint, looks like Im a reasonable human being! not going to keep making that whore analogy any more…

    Actually…

    Me: Did you come too hard and made a mess over there? (hahahaha) (girl is trying to silence me)

    Fuck your boundaries.

    That’s the ‘sick burn’ and will make everyone pee on their pants with laughter. This is the actual outrageous thing that I prepared with the ramp. This is the memorable experience for her. And I can get away with it because I did three calibrated incremental jokes with “hahaha’s” from the crowd, then showed restraint by taking it away, then pushed it plus a million showed that I don’t care and I do as I please.

    And all this because she made a slight attempt at putting me down, which is something she’s doing to every fucking guy. Guess who will fuck her

    Answer: not the guy trying to protect her honor.

    She doesn’t have that.

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/21/2018 at 9:18 am

      There is misunderstanding here on the words.

      The part I am not understanding from your lines is why do I refer to her ‘come too hard’ (as in she touched herself in the bathroom) when i am walking back from the bathroom. Why is there an explicit sexual part here at this detail?

      If I think back to how the guys were behaving, I dont think they will laugh (my impression) but I do see the approach you took:

      1) twist the words and turn into a joke (she charging for her ‘sexual time’)
      2) increase the level of the joke (now saying she is cheap)
      3) increase the level of the joke further (now saying maybe she should actually be cheaper)
      4) pretend to pull back (say that I ‘understand’ why she charging – for the bathroom)
      5) push the level of the joke even further (saying she made a mess by coming [orgasm] too hard in bathroom)

      From points 1-4, I can understand and I can easily see this working with the crowd considering her looks and guys being glued to her. The point 5 (cum too hard), appears like I am crossing a line and becoming ‘grotty’ (from Flat Lander mention earlier). At point 5, instead of saying she come too hard, I would say ‘Amazing what you can get for a few bucks’. Here I am still within the theme of her charging for her sexual time.

      On the general point, I understand the pushing of boundaries and who she is ultimately likely to fuck. It is the retort that you are using that is not clear.

      Reply
      • YOHAMI says:

        05/21/2018 at 9:29 am

        “I dont think they will laugh”

        Why not? men down in the hierarchy laugh at the jokes of the guy up in the hierarchy. Where are you positioning yourself? do you expect that people just laugh when you even start making a joke? why not?

        Look above. “I don’t think they will laugh”

        Do you think girls will just open their legs from you?

        Why not?

        You’re disqualifying yourself before you even start. See?

        ================

        “grotty”

        That’s why it had a ramp and I didn’t start with the ‘cum too hard’ line. People are already laughing – you can escalate.

        Enroll in an improvisation theatre course if you can. Im realizing more and more this is something that really made me good at Game. Social boundaries are fucking you over because you’re low on the ladder of men, so the respect for boundaries means you’re keeping yourself down.

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/21/2018 at 9:59 am

          Why not? men down in the hierarchy laugh at the jokes of the guy up in the hierarchy. Where are you positioning yourself? do you expect that people just laugh when you even start making a joke? why not?

          On the above, the context is that I have no interaction with the guys therefore dont have a sense of what the hierarchy is. This could be me creating a paradigm where things need to be evaluated with some words first. All I know is that I am passing a group. I can make a snap judgement and say that because all the guys are around her, they are all lower guys.

          On the improv, I can sign up to something locally.

          The social boundaries problem is here again. I dont have a fear on stepping on boundaries (I can push it more and more). The fear is going too far and this is what I am trying to understand where talking about the ‘girl cumming in the bathroom’ makes sense. Just ‘ragging her’ (making fun on her) I can do without a problem (eg. furniture comment). Escalating the joke (ie. pushing it further) can also be done. Pushing it more sexual without understanding how far I can do this, is the problem.

          To try to explain with different examples:

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : your nails look terrible and you got some dirt on your dress
          

          The above is obviously complete non-sense because it doesnt do anything with her 0.50 and the neg is just completely out of context. It would also give the indication that I am ‘hurt’ by her comment and just lashing back.

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : no, you owe me 50 cents
          

          This is what actually happened and here I can see that I am mirroring which is wrong (ie. not leading her gambit anywhere). In the moment, I understood that I was being ‘ragged’ (ie. being made fun of or as you say it – ‘being put down’) therefore my instinctive reaction was to (try) reverse it. In the above there is no ‘humour’ aspect to it.

          
          Her : 50 cents please
          Me : you charging 50 cents by the hour? thats cheap looking her up and down
          Me : I thought you would charge more, like 75 cents
          Me : or perhaps it should be lower towards 25 cents pause until her face react
          Me : oh, you mean 50 cents for the bathroom? Silly me, I didnt know you were the bathroom attendant dressed in high heels
          

          The above is the put down on her that would make sense to me as I am crossing her boundaries because I am twisting the way she dresses (upscale) and presents herself (the prize). it is also a clear put down on her while using the 50 cents gambit her set out.

          In rereading your lines in 1v1 context, they all make perfect sense but in the put down context, it doesnt click in my head to invoke overt sexual things.

          Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/21/2018 at 10:06 am

            “doesnt click in my head”

            Get out of your head and try things in the out world

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 10:17 am

              knowing myself here, I am going to have to ‘pace myself’ in moving to explicit overt sexual put down.

              If I jump into it right now as is (as I am), I will come across as very incongruent which could result in a negative outcome (uncalibrated asshole).

              I mean thus far, more than 85% of the things you have mentioned on the posts on game / top guy (this page and others) have come to pass and I can reconcile with my experiences. So it may be that I just really need to say ‘fuck it’ and push perhaps too far rather than not far enough and then go from there.

              Reply
          • YOHAMI says:

            05/21/2018 at 10:11 am

            “I have no interaction with the guys therefore dont have a sense of what the hierarchy is.”

            Pause and reflect, I keep pointing at it.

            This is you again asking for permission. So you’re going to interact with the guys, first, to then get a sense of what the hierarchy is, to then position yourself in it? you’re at the bottom, plain and simple.

            The proper answer is that you’re at the top and you come at the top. So, if there are super cool guys in that group, they can join you at the top. And that other guy at the bottom, you can feel for him and wish that he’d put the work and join you at the top, too.

            But you don’t ‘get a sense of what the hierarchy is’ before you start positioning yourself. That thing of “let me first get a sense” is the same thing of you not leading, not taking the games elsewhere, etc. Look, read it slowly:

            You’re scanning for walls.

            You’re scanning for walls to not trespass.

            So when a girl gives you an opening you mirror her because that’s safe so you ask for more walls.

            Ditch this completely.

            LEAD.

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 10:26 am

              I think what you are describing here is my behaviour which is being passed over from the office into night game. Given my work, the hierarchy (and power structures) is always changing and a misstep can cost me a hell of a lot. The mechanics of my professional life are in order for my professional situation.

              But these mechanics are likely causing me to be more ‘defensive’ / cautious around other guys where this should be completely discarded because it is outside the office.

              Noted for future.

              On mirroring the girls, this is still (negative) habit because of social conditioning. The only way for me to move around this is to keep having more interactions and keep the ‘no mirroring’ aspect in the back of my mind.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 10:31 am

                Yes the office hierarchy is different. And you can’t just ‘be the boss’.

                In the courtship dance you can’t be anything but the boss.

      • YOHAMI says:

        05/21/2018 at 9:37 am

        *Do you think girls will just open their legs [FOR] you?

        Reply
        • Lucretius says:

          05/21/2018 at 11:07 am

          For top guy = it is expected (yes)
          For bottom guy = work required (no)

          Reply
50. Lucretius says:

    05/21/2018 at 10:48 am

    In an effort to resolve this issue of ‘office behaviour’ traversing into ‘night game’, I need to completely re-evaluate everything that I have done. Rather than me try to ‘fix’ how I enter into a group, can you suggest 2-3 possible openers for the following situations (I can provide more details for the situation if necessary):

    All take place at a bar or bar like atmosphere where there is either a bar + dance floor or just a bar.

    Situation 1
    Girl is sitting at the bar alone having her drink
    or
    Girl is sitting in the corner looking at the crowd

    In both of the above alternatives, the girl is waiting for guys to come to her.

    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to the girl to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Situation 2
    Girl is together with another girl in group talking with each other.
    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to one of the girls (or both) to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    Situation 3
    Group of people where there is 1 or 2 girls surrounded by multiple guys all talking.
    How would you approach them in this context (I am just throwing out random options)
    – Would the opening be a remark (judgment) on the bar / event / people?
    – Would the opening be a compliment (judgment) on the girl herself (body / appearance)?
    – Would the opening be to tease on her demeanour / body language / clothes?
    – Would the opening be to speak to one of the girls (or both) to ask for opinion on something because of another discussion ongoing?
    – Would there be a remark on how the situation looks (ie. gathering around water cooler / coffee machine)?
    – Something else?

    [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

    The above would help give more of a sense of the different approach dynamics for different situations and to try to question (and replace) what I have been doing before (which is getting girls interested in me but as mentioned may not be a “correct way”). I am also conscious that as I write the above, I could be setting myself up for rapport but this is not the aim and if girl is moving towards rapport, I can move out of it as already shown before. MY AIM IS TO BREAK OUT OF CURRENT HABITS

    In all of the above, one can start with ‘Hey’ or ‘Hi’ and if the girl says something a bit more than ‘hey’ or ‘hi’ then there is something to work with. At some point there needs to be something to discuss even if the underlying current is already being established as top guy.

    In text messages, the opening line from guy would be ‘hey ;-)’ with or without nickname and then callback to meeting situation + flirt (if things could not go further there and then for whatever reason). If girl is opening, she likely give something to work with. From there it is moving around the conversation on what is said towards flirting, escalation and towards sex.

    Reply
    • YOHAMI says:

      05/21/2018 at 11:40 am

      The answer for al these:

      1) Flirt
      2) Tease
      3) Pass judgement

      Reply
      • Lucretius says:

        05/21/2018 at 11:43 am

        can you give examples of flirt in the above situations?

        I can work out the tease (playfully twisting the words) and pass judgement (saying what I think in statements on various points)

        Reply
        • YOHAMI says:

          05/21/2018 at 12:18 pm

          FLIRT

          Display of nuanced sexual interest

          Eye contact
          Body posture
          Saying hi / hey / sup ;-)

          ============

          TEASE

          Give her / them something to prove, give her a role to play, or get herself out of. Cold reading falls into this, the difference is that the tease is an invitation to play, so when they play, you reward them

          You look like a [category]
          Do you [come here often]
          Are you [doing this or that]
          Are you [stuff, attribute, etc]
          Where are you from, or are you from [xxx]

          Check the classic pickup stuff

          Me: Yo
          GIrls: Hi
          Me: We’re are you guys from
          Girls: Miami
          Me: Wow! miami that’s awesome (reward)

          Or

          Me: oh no miami girls are trouble (more tease)

          ============

          PASS JUDGEMENT

          State that stuff is good or bad. It has to come from you, as you being the authority. Passing judgement is what you do after the tease so you evaluate the situation and her performance. You also pass judgement on other things – the venue, whatever. The more clear and cut and black and white your judgement, the better.

          And then of course

          ============

          ROLEPLAYING / RAPPORT + BREAK RAPPORT / CALLS TO ACTION etc

          Reply
          • Lucretius says:

            05/21/2018 at 12:53 pm

            Thanks.

            This helps clarify a few things.

            Flirting
            The eye contact and body language was always in my mind but for some reason I always thought that there would be something else I have to be doing (an UNKNOWN) for it to qualify for it to be considered flirting.

            If I ignore the word ‘flirting’ and just think about what it is that I am doing when I like a girl, it is practically this:
            – giving the girl a ‘cheeky’ look (something with a smirk and eyes)
            – prolonged eye contact (until she breaks it off)
            – body posture would change (more open towards her)
            – talking to the girl in inuendo (where it can be done if she makes a statement that can have multiple meanings)
            – specific kino where appropriate

            The above to me is just guy to girl behaviour but is actually flirting if I give it a label. Are there any other points outside the above that I am doing that could also be considered Flirting? Not looking for exhaustive list but a major point if I am missing it.

            Teasing
            The way you describe it is not as I would understand teasing. In my vocabulary, teasing would be taking a particular thing that is on her (accessory) or about her or something she said or something she thinks and teasing her with it by continuing a playful discussion on it. This would be happening during the interaction.

            Looking at this part of the teasing as you describe it:
            Give her / them something to prove, give her a role to play, or get herself out of.

            The above is to me the roleplay and depending on her responses, I can tease (my definition) one way or another and lead it into another conversation thread where I could again tease her. This can keep looping with the teases spaced apart depending on what she is saying.

            On this part:
            Cold reading falls into this, the difference is that the tease is an invitation to play, so when they play, you reward them

            The cold reads is what I would see as “the starter” for the interaction and this is what I was typing in the various situations. If I can cold read and land it, then it could be material for teasing and then push forward onto roleplay. The interaction would then keep moving around this where she may start volunteering information (ie. qualify herself) and this allows things to move forward again. Like you mentioned in the “dance” at the top of this page.

            The reward here would be to continue the thread or give a smile that she played along. If she does something that is like a performance (eg. doing something for me – like going to the polish – i can say “very good”)

            Pass judgement
            On this aspect, this is clear and follows the same definition I have.
            I have always spoken as I thought and not “calibrated” my opinion because of someone (guy or girl) in the group.

            Role play / rapport + break rapport / call to action, etc
            These I would see as sprinkled throughout the interaction and would be fluid depending how the interaction goes.

            Getting examples on certain terms used helps me reconcile what the meaning of it is. Overall, I am seeing that my natural interactions in person with guys / girls is what I should be doing but the frame that I have (at this time) is causing me to think I need to act differently than what I would normally do. Lets call it “game frame” where all new terms and concepts are coming in and I am thinking it means ‘X’ but actually means ‘Y’.

            In effect, I need to just drop this “game frame” and interact from the mindset that every MALE -> FEMALE interaction in social setting is about sex and only sex.

            I still got problems with doors and walls but I am believing that if I think from the above and do not read too much into what a girl is saying, I will avoid doing something to address a problem that is not there (eg. with the bulgarian where I thought she was taking the lead).

            Reply
            • Lucretius says:

              05/21/2018 at 12:56 pm

              To further clarify teasing, it is always fun and light hearted.
              If it is missing this component, then anything I would be saying would be an off hand insult or put down.

              Reply
              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:04 pm

                Why should it be always fun and light hearted? nope

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/21/2018 at 1:12 pm

              Man this cracks me up. I have a hard time even understanding what you’re doing. Once and again your frame things to belong to nice guy / bottom frame. Look:

              Look for real.

              You are a TOP GUY talking to a girl that you MAY want to fuck.

              You can’t remove these elements from the stuff. These elements are integral to everything. Don’t remove them. Check my line here:

              “Display of nuanced sexual interest”

              This is a FULL display of NUANCE sexual interest. Or, you are FULLY communicating a MAYBE.

              Let it rest.

              What is the body language of a top guy who’s just having a chill time, and sees one of many, many beautiful girls he could bang and maybe will bang?

              If that’s not your starting point, then you’ll communicate something else other than ‘top guy’ so you’re on the losing end of the stick.

              Check your assumptions:

              “– giving the girl a ‘cheeky’ look (something with a smirk and eyes)”

              Is a cheeky look sexual? are you communicating “how good of a fuck are you?” with it?

              “– prolonged eye contact (until she breaks it off)”

              No. If the girl gives you ‘the eyes’ you go and talk to her. What is communicated with the eye contact is “I like you, you like me”. When that happens, open your mouth and say hi, this is time to escalate. Not time to wait until it breaks off and now the window is gone.

              “– body posture would change (more open towards her)”

              No, you’re not a soldier and she’s not that important. You can talk over your shoulder. If you’re leaning on a wall or something, barely move. You adjusting your body to look in her direction is you reacting to her, she’s the one who will react to you.

              “– talking to the girl in inuendo (where it can be done if she makes a statement that can have multiple meanings)”

              That would be a tease. You can open with a tease but that’s not flirting.

              “– specific kino where appropriate”

              Kino is not flirting

              Reply
              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:34 pm

                I throw away my definitions and assumptions.

                If I am understanding this right, I need to be talking to the girl while in my mind I am already fucking her and this will be sub-communicated in the flirting / teasing?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 1:44 pm

                In your mind you’re MAYBE fucking her. You’re doing a screening process.

                Is she fun enough?
                Adventurous enough?
                Spicy enough?
                What do you personally like?
                Is she worth YOUR TIME?

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:00 pm

                And to answer these questions, I need to:
                1) Flirt (to communicate sexual interest)
                2) Tease (to see how she reacts – boring / fun / interesting)
                3) Judgement (to see if she reacts on what I say)
                4) Role play (to generate feelings in her and see how she reacts)
                5) rapport + break rapport (to generate feelings + judgment)
                6) call to action (moving onwards)

                is the above more inline or am I way off again?

                I would imagine that if the girl is not reacting the way I would like (ie. i dont like the girl personality), I just end the interaction and go somewhere else.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:07 pm

                Put differently:

                Top Guy – maybe I will fuck you girl (depends more than looks…)
                Bottom Guy – please fuck me girl (I will take anything, just let me)

                If I am to become Top Guy frame, I should be mentally wondering (picturing) how fucking her would feel to me and if it is something I want to make happen or not

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:11 pm

                continued …

                I have to be doing things where I am judging her and not her judging me.

                The flirt is the overt indication of sex.
                Everything else is really for me to see if she is worth of me hence I ‘poke and prod’ her to see what she does it to my liking. Everything I do must be from this perspective.

                Is more right?

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:19 pm

                Yes. All good but this:

                “The flirt is the overt indication of sex.”

                Flirt is a MAYBE, but it’s how you set the frame, and the frame is unequivocal. If you don’t flirt then it’s not man to woman.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:29 pm

                Anything else to consider (for the moment)?
                Will see by end of week if my interactions are different.

                I can understand that if I have ‘decided’ up front I want a girl and then am ‘doing stuff’ to get the girl, everything comes from bottom guy because it feels like I am committed to a course of action and must continue.

                If I am uncertain (AND HAVE THE OPTION TO JUST DROP IT), i can see things working a bit differently because if she is starting to look like too much trouble for me (eg. crazy / ball busting / etc), then it is better to just stop there and find someone else.

              • YOHAMI says:

                05/21/2018 at 2:34 pm

                That should give you plenty. Let me know how it goes.

              • Lucretius says:

                05/21/2018 at 8:19 pm

                A general question on the initial interaction.

                When seeing a girl that I like and starting an interaction with her, should I put out my hand to say ‘Hi, I am [name]’ or just to say ‘Hi (then “up nod”), I’m [name]’

                The contrary also happens if there are multiple people in the group (say 4 in total). If a girl puts out her hand and gives her name, should I shake her hand or just do ‘up nod’?

                The question comes from a perspective of falling into new person frame or mirroring her (if she got her hand out)

              • imaflirt says:

                05/24/2018 at 6:51 am

                “Kino is not flirting”

                Could you elaborate as to why you don’t see kino as a style of flirting? I’ve googled “flirting touch” and there are plenty of counter-opinions.

                ?

            • YOHAMI says:

              05/21/2018 at 1:18 pm

              On Teasing: the dictionary definition is

              “make fun of or attempt to provoke (a person or animal) in a playful way.”

              Which fits. You’re attempting to provoke a person in a playful way. My line to the bus girl “what kind, cheap or posh” is a tease. So is “so you’re a traveler uh”

              You provoking them is tease. Tease is just to spark things up.

              ” teasing would be taking a particular thing that is on her (accessory) or about her or something she said or something she thinks and teasing her with it by continuing a playful discussion on it. ”

              That sounds like asexual rapport. How interested are you in her accessories?

              Roleplay is a much more complex form where you’re doing a parallel universe / future.

              Reply
51. YOHAMI says:

    05/21/2018 at 9:02 pm

    Luc, replying here

    “When seeing a girl that I like and starting an interaction with her, should I put out my hand to say ‘Hi, I am [name]’ or just to say ‘Hi (then “up nod”), I’m [name]’”

    Both are fine so it depends on the context. If you’re stopping her on the street you don’t even need to say your name, just flirt and tease. If you’re in a more formal setup where people are introducing you, just do what the situation merits.

    “If a girl puts out her hand and gives her name, should I shake her hand or just do ‘up nod’?”

    If a girl puts our her hand that’s an opening, and it’s kino. Shake her hand and make sure it’s a feel-good shake.

    Doing a ‘nod’ and rejecting her hand is punishing her for giving you an opening. Which is iwhat you have to avoid doing always.

    “The question comes from a perspective of falling into new person frame or mirroring her (if she got her hand out)””

    Shaking her hand is not mirroring. But yes it’s better when you’re the one extending the hand first (when a handshake is the socially normal scenario)

    If you’re picking her up the handshake comes somewhere in the middle of the interaction, after a few hahahas etc when you’re coming down back to earth. “Hey Im [Name] by the way”

    Reply
52. Lucretius says:

    05/21/2018 at 9:38 pm

    In re-reading the text section from robinhood:

    Me: nice pic
    Me: you have no compassion for the people who cant afford vacations, do you

    Her: Hahahha everyone can afford vacations! You are from [Sunny Country], why you are complaining?! :)

    What is the direction that it should go?
    What I do know is that I have to reward her for playing along on the vacation theme

    Reply
    • Lucretius says:

      05/21/2018 at 9:43 pm

      Possible answers that come to mind are:

      Me : Everyone needs a bit of fun outside their home country ;-)

      or

      Me : The sun is too much. I want snow ;-)

      The second one feels better because it has judgement + flirt whereas first one is largely flirt.
      The ;-) is the reward for playing along

      <