Extreme Social Savvy || 9 More
I went back and listened to Krauser’s Womanizer’s Bible video product again this week. “Mind wank,” as Krauser would say. All theory. And very good thinking, I might add.
Over the summer, something was up with my “game.” I was working hard, going nowhere. And Yohami was burying me in “stop the madness” comments about daygame. It was a hard time. I was disappointed.
Since then, my results are looking better. I’m dating, I’m making out, I’m having sex. I have a little bit of a girl tornado going right now. This is what I wanted.
Yohami is a game-genius, IMHO. I know he has studied a lot other players and their theories. I also know he “field tested” his thoughts intensely… he has a lot of personal experience. But he has been more than skeptical about daygame, and has expressed some surprise that I have suddenly been able to produce some results, 90% of which is classic, straight-up daygame effort.
“I’m surprised you were able to get into “girl tornado” by doing daygame. I didn’t think it was possible – to be fair, judging by Krauser’s and Tom’s own explanations of how it’s done, I still don’t think it’s possible to LEARN the proper frames you need to be good with women, since you need a starting position of abundance and detachment with goes in opposition with hunting in the streets – but you made it happen, so congrats.”
Yohami thinks that “chasing girls that aren’t interested in you is madness.” And that is a true statement. He is right, the reality of daygame is most girls won’t want you to put your cock inside them. It is a fact that every time I go out on the street, I get several girls that are not interested in me. Sometimes they politely smile and move on. Sometimes they don’t even look at me. Sometimes I get thru a few minutes, ask for a phone number, and they say they don’t want to see me again. And sometimes… I end up in bed w/ that girl in a little over 24 hours.
I think this discussion is very much like the “inner game” vs “outer game” comparison. This isn’t where Yohami goes with this topic, but this is my POV… So… what is better? Inner game or outer game? What’s more important? Don’t you need good inner game before you can find success with women? Maybe. But how can you have good inner game if you don’t have any mastery of the basic skills of approaching, attracting, taking a number, dating, etc… all that outer game stuff? Which do you do first?
The inner game vs outer game conversation is paradoxical. There’s no right answer to which is more important, that’s the wrong question, actually. A players growth is not “inner game first, then outer game, in this specific order… blah blah blah.” It’s not like that. You are growing inner game and outer game, in little bits, fits and starts, all the time… as long as you’re out talking to girls. That is really the essential ingredient. Some theory to point you in the right direction (and knock the bluepill out of you, which is easier said than done), but then… talking to girls. Practice. All the rest, including success, follows that first step of approaching her.
That helps me see how Yohami can be giving me great advice, and at the same time, I can grow incredibly fast via the daygame model. True, I studied game, in general, for years before I got into daygame (which helped me quite a bit), but daygame pushed me into growth I was not getting from other avenues.
Part of that was having the discipline to approach, in the daylight, no alcohol… that’s “outer game”, in some ways, but required growth in my inner game to get there. And then… just taking numbers. I never got this down until daygame… mostly because daygame put me in contact with more hot women that I was ever talking to in bars, or cafes or whatever. I could hit the streets 3 days a week, and practice taking a number 3 to 5 times a day, each time. 3 weeks of that, and I was very comfortable taking a woman’s number. That confidence added to my inner game. That skill made my outer game more slick.
But for now… I want to point to something Krauser said in that video that I think is precious to understanding why daygame has worked for me. A very specific skill that can be learned elsewhere, but is a major part of daygame.
“The other modern player USP that I think is really important is extreme social savvy.”
— Krauser’s Womanizer Bible video series
He is talking about “USP” in the last video in that series. That stands for “unique selling proposition,” and that a man has to work on several aspect of this selling proposition if he wants women to “buy.” Krauser is saying that daygame will sharpen your social savvy and that that skill will become part of what makes you attractive to women.
“Especially if you’re doing daygame, cold approach generally, but especially daygame, is one of our really big, strong signs of sexual market value is our extreme calibration, our extreme social knowledge.
Because we’re literally having thousands of interactions with women. We’re going thru the stages of the courtship ritual — certainly the beginnings of it, before we get blown out — thousands of times. Thousands of thousands of times. Way more than a normal man ever would. Way more than the girl ever will.
That will generally engender experience. And that experience leads to extreme social savvy and calibration, which is, in itself, very, very attractive.”
That nails a lot of where I am at about daygame. I’m clearly getting a lot of chances to practice my ability to read and calibrate to women – my “social savvy,” or “social calibration” skills. This will increase my value in the sexual marketplace. It already has. I am always reading girls. Telling them what I can see in their face. Reacting to their body language. All that.
Even on days like the one in this post (sets are below). 9 girls. No numbers. No love connection. A little magic, but not much. But what was GOOD about the day, despite all the disinterest I witnessed in those approaches, was this:
More time calibrating. This is the “thousands and thousands” that Krauser is talking about.
I was thinking that there is no “set of the day” in this batch. I liked #6 below the best… I should have
pushed “pulled” that one a little more, I think she was just nervous… but the set of the day for me was #5.
That girl didn’t really like me. But what I took away from that, was additional calibration practice that got her to stand still and let me spit game. This gets added to the “thousands” of other times I’ve had a chance to practice making a stranger feel comfortable with me in cold approach. I do this with tourists too, and the exact same skill, but with girls… it’s a little more real.
The win here wasn’t fucking this sweet girl. The win was getting a nervous girl to relax and let me play with her for a minute. I can do that, because I have “extreme social savvy.” I’m not saying I’m that good… many, many guys are much, much better than me… but I’m infinitely better than most people. And this week, I talked to 25+ girls on the street. I am going to hit 200 new girls in the Oct-Dec timeframe. That’s daygame. And each one of those brings me into a class of men with more experience “dancing” with strangers than most men could ever dream of.
She was nervous. She would back up, pull her arms up toward her neck… at first. Classic protection of her vital areas. I am not a threat (well, a sexual threat, maybe), but the simple animal in her is doing a great job of staying safe — even if this all went down near the Apple store, in front of 100 people, in broad daylight. Even with all that actual safety, she needed me to demonstrate some real skill or she would have walked off. She didn’t walk off.
I opened, she paused. She drifted a bit. I had to move with her, subtly, inches, as she pivoted around me. I had to smile and gesture, etc. I had to be vulnerable and real and genuinely curious, so it didn’t feel like a hustle. And it worked. She backed up in tiny ways… but we end up within normal conversational space, she shook my hand, she talked with me for as long as I wanted. She was pretty relaxed at the end. She’s not the girl for me… but she is excellent calibration time so I am ready for a girl that really matters.
Girls that don’t “like” you are still excellent practice. Maybe even better than girls that do want some cock.
Yohami is right — we need references experience of girls chasing us. And girls chase high-value men. Yes. That’s right.
But to Krauser’s point… extreme social savvy is very attractive. It’s high value.
Expert calibration is high value in that it’s not easy to acquire and impossible to fake, and the girls can feel it. They can tell it’s nothing like most guys they will meet. The Korean girl Miss Sincere actually told me that I was extremely socially calibrated… except she said it like, “You’re a very good talker.” She told me she was going to say she wasn’t interested, but I danced my way past that moment. She could see how good I was and she was impressed. That is its own “social ladder.” And my daygame skills are pushing me up that ladder. Girls can tell.
My progress will continue, because… I love women. And because daygame… is a lot of fun.
Here are the rest of the sets:
- Chinese girl from Shandong. Little chat. She hooked and had a good time. Student. Bad teeth. I let her go.
Tall, hot woman from Tokyo. Very hot, great body in super tight jeans. She 1/2 hooked, body facing away from me. I wasn’t that into her, and she wasn’t that into me, so I let her go.
Little frumpy Asian, w/ a great face. Suspicious and confused. I had an awkward approach and that didn’t help. I could have done better… she walked off.
Asian girl, short hair. Carrying two coffees. Said she was busy and walked off.
Asian girl from LA. Slow walk, very sexy. She was very nervous, kept backing up… I danced with her for a bit and she relaxed. Good chance to calibrate. I let her go.
Very cute Asian girl with interesting style. Fine art student. Interesting girl, but she would only repeat “cool!,” after everything I said, over and over. I think she was nervous, but in a good way. I let her go too. I regret not taking her number, actually. I liked her.
Older Asian woman, around 30, great style… No accent, but I’d guess Taiwanese. Good chat, she was feminine and giggly and fun, and she cut it off kind of suddenly, with a smile, and we said goodbye. She felt married to me, but I didn’t see a ring. She knew what was up. Good for her.
Short hair, very cute, wouldn’t really stop.
Lovely Asian girl, incredible figure 8 body. Conservative, but sexy. Smiled but wouldn’t stop.
OK LONG comment ahead, Im draining my thoughts on this subject.
A few questions for you Nash, plus any other guys doing Daygame.
1) What’s stopping you, if anything, from joining social groups and being “the alpha guy” of that setup?
2) What’s stopping you from taking your job or skills into something that gives you social visibility, so girls gravitate to you?
3) If we agree that the world is setup in a way where the men at the top (cool guys) get the girls interest, and the men in the periphery get no action, and you want women: why does hunting women from the periphery, where the basic assumption is rejection, seems like a good idea as opposed to hunting women from the top or inner circle, where the basic assumption is approval?
4) If you would have to choose, for learning game, would you like to start off a position where no girl is interested in you, or from a position where girls dig you and want to get in your pants?
5) do you know about this particular thing in “frames” and behavior, that the thing you repeat the most, is the thing you are? which in this case means that if you put yourself in the periphery, that becomes your reality, and likewise if you put yourself at the top and center, it becomes your reality, too?
Some random thoughts:
BETA AND GAME
– Game is by definition something marketed and created for and by men in the periphery, the men who NEED to do something or wont see any action at all. Rockstars and natural alphas didnt invent Game, the behaviors came to them naturally because of their social status, their abundance in women, their natural dominance, charisma or whatever else. Game starts from a Beta frame: What Can I Do To Get Women To Like Me?
– When I made the questions above Im presenting a choice that is invisible to the beta frame. The choice is: would you rather be rich and famous or poor and miserable? Like I said, the beta frame doesnt think it’s a choice. Pay attention.
– The beta frame sees it’s own value as something transactional. The frame gains value for being USEFUL and DOING things, performing services in exchange of goods.
– All this leads to Game being a series of doings, techniques, masks, postures, performed to create an impression of value that the frame doesnt have in it’s core.
– Compare to the alpha frame, the value is in it’s being, and all the behavior, which is naturally attractive to women, comes from a place where the frame puts itself first, its own desires, boundaries, commands, pleasure and pain, first, with authority, and backed by enough real life skill to make the frame survive.
– So when I ask the questions above, the beta doesnt see the choice. “well I have no option” it says “Im already in the periphery, so what can I do from HERE?”.
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE QUESTIONS
Here’s what I think goes through the minds of people with the Beta frame in them:
QUESTION: 1) What’s stopping you, if anything, from joining social groups and being “the alpha guy” of that setup?
ANSWER: But Im not an alpha guy! I dont know how to join a group and be the alpha guy! I dont like these groups, this doesnt “feel right”, Im not that guy!
QUESTION: 2) What’s stopping you from taking your job or skills into something that gives you social visibility, so girls gravitate to you?
ANSWER: But that’s hard! I dont want to be rich and a lamborgini or fame, dont want to put all that work, look at that other guy he’s not even famous and he gets all the girls! that’s enough for me!
QUESTION 3) If we agree that the world is setup in a way where the men at the top (cool guys) get the girls interest, and the men in the periphery get no action, and you want women: why does hunting women from the periphery, where the basic assumption is rejection, seems like a good idea as opposed to hunting women from the top or inner circle, where the basic assumption is approval?
ANSWER: But I am in the periphery already, and being rejected already, that is REALITY, so what can I do taking into account the reality where I am? Im not a cool guy, or I wouldnt be talking to you, mr. Yohami Guru!
QUESTION: 4) If you would have to choose, for learning game, would you like to start off a position where no girl is interested in you, or from a position where girls dig you and want to get in your pants?
ANSWER: Pfff no brainer, I would love if girls were after me, but since they are not, this is not even a valid question. But I do see value in improving myself, I see value in learning Game from where I am, of course it’s harder for me than for a rich cool good looking guy, but I will put the work and see some profits.
QUESTION: 5) do you know about this particular thing in “frames” and behavior, that the thing you repeat the most, is the thing you are? which in this case means that if you put yourself in the periphery, that becomes your reality, and likewise if you put yourself at the top and center, it becomes your reality, too?
ANSWER: This sounds like mambo jumbo. Sounds like “fake it till you make it”. Sure I have a few affirmations that I do, but come on repeating that I am “the shit” doesnt make me “the shit”, I need to have my feet on the ground.
What game and red pill showed me, about ten years ago, was something about the nature of the world around me that I hadnt seen before. I saw the pyramid for what it is. I started being a PUA. I noticed shortly after that it drained my energy, even when I would get the lay, it was WORK. I saw, in the pyramid model, that the “cool guys” dont put any of that work, therefore they have it EASIER than I had it. So I put my focus on being a “cool guy” that girls gravitate towards, as opposed to be a “SCARCE GUY” who chases women. As a “cool guy” I got tons and tons and tons of social interactions, coming my way, and expanding from me, that let me acquire “extreme social savviness”, without having to work my way up for every lead, saving energy I could put somewhere else.
– I changed my life so I could have time to party like an animal
– Changed my work so it didnt drain me as much
– Changed where I lived so I had a “bachelor pad” near to one popular venue with bars and pubs
– Enrolled as many social things possible, acting classes, couchsurfing gatherings, meetups, themed parties
– Consumed all the material I could find on how to change my body posture, language, tone, voice, to convey being the “cool” guy
– Picked a couple of celebrities and changed my style and fashion to be like them
– Found where my resistances to being “happy” were and changed my life so I could be happy
– Consumed all the material I could find on charisma, how to have conversations, make jokes, also pickup etc
So all of that was an investment on my and my new frame. Not an investment chasing people for their interactions. The difference is that all that energy, I kept. I used it to build. It led to better business, better life path, better body, better social skills, better everything – no time wasted at all pushing against walls or rejection, only time and energy invested in making a broader path for myself and building a castle – (nod to Riv).
So girls came my way and I said hi, take your panties off. So they did.
Nash – compare the experience of being in Girl Tornado, where you have dates and sexual experiences with all these girls, vs the experience of hitting the streets in Daygame. Which experience makes you grow more?
Here your answer is probably going to be “but I was able to get into Girl Tornado BECAUSE of Daygame”.
My response to that is, you did, and kudos to you, but you didnt need Daygame, you could have started straight on Girl Tornado, if you had tried that directly.
All my first pickups and lays after discovering game were “Daygame”, before it was called that. I would go out but I was shy and quiet, not very adept to participating in drunk culture, the girls there were obviously not looking for a guy like ME, more intellectual and with other interests – so I was a mismatch for night culture. What I could do was talk and flirt, so I did. Wherever I was. Flirted with the neighbors, with clients, with bosses, with men, with women, with kids “Game Everyone”. I still remember where I got that. It was Lance from pickup 101. He said in a video about kino and touching women, that the way to be able to touch a girl was to touch everyone else also. You had to be the “touchy guy”, the guy that greets with a hug and becomes physical with everyone – not just with her. He said that if you’re physical just with her, then it will come across as something that you do TO HER, and show that you want something from HER, so she’ll put barriers to it. But that if you touch everyone, and you’re relaxed with kino, she will be ok with you touching her, and it will arouse her, because you touched her. So I said ok, if Im going to Game I will game EVERYONE and not just the girl I like. I’ll game her, and her mom, dad, boyfriend if she has it, game everyone, I AM game now. Im this guy.
That meant flirting with girls in the street as they pass by. In the cues. In the movies. In the stores. The difference between this and daygame is the frame only. I DID NOT CARE for numbers, leads, therefore I was detached, and had margin for escalation as nothing could be “fucked up” or go wrong, I was just me being the cool guy. Turning situations with strangers into funny sexual remarks, making strangers into friends, creating interesting social situations, “approaching”, no, TALKING to groups, guys, girls, everyone, becoming more social, with no attachment whatsoever. Which to my surprise turned into a lot of girls wanting to give me THEIR number and asking for facebook details. And then I learned to ask for these myself when I recognized the desire. The difference with this and the PUA model is the frame. I started from the top, from an ABUNDANCE frame, rather than from a HUNTING HUNGRY frame, I started off assuming that I had the vale and dripping it down, as opposed to trying to get value into my life. Giving away instead of stealing.
But I tried that because that’s what the top guys would have done. I was still imitating, following a fantasy in my mind, trying to see the shape I had to adopt.
The problem with daygame and most other forms of game is that you start from Beta. That’s it, you can go home now.
An alpha guy can do “daygame” aka “flirt with girls” and all will be fine.
But how do you teach the Beta guy who wants sex and love from girls, to get it?
All the chasing will reinforce the beta frame. All the taking notes and pain and gains will reinforce the beta frame. How do you take that guy and teleport him a few inches away, into the Alpha frame, so then he can flirt with girls from a different position?
The beta guy running Daygame, attached to a “model” (lol) will see some results, because taking action in the world always gives you results, positive and negative. Of the 1000 girls that you talk to, one, in a specific day, will like you. Then you treasure that memory and use it to cement the “reference experience”, aka, “I am a loser but here, I am capable of more! here’s one girl who liked me! it happened! Im a man who can be liked!”.
– I would take that guy instead and give him a job as a pub bouncer. So he’d have all the attention from the 9’s and the 10’s rubbing their breasts on his arm trying to get in. I would have him experience that FIRST.
– I would have him up on a stage, doing art or music or giving a conference or whatever he has skills on, with just enough charisma to have him validated by everyone, and then cash on the attention from the girls. I’d have him experience that FIRST.
– I’d have him in a VIP room where all the ho’s are, in an expensive table, with bimbos trying to do lapdances on him, so many that he cannot give attention to them all. I’d have him experience that FIRST.
– I’d have him having girls competing for his attention. I’d have him experience women for what they are, not what they pretend to be to betas, which is just a funnel to extract attention and resources. I’d have him experience women as they really are: competing with each other for alpha cock. Your cock. I’d have him experience that FIRST.
– I’d have him be in a group, any kind of group, and experiencing being the alpha guy of that group, aka, the guy with a louder voice, taking initiative first, taking risks, breaking ice, being sociable, organizing the interactions, leading the pack. Then see the FLOCK of girls wanting to get into his pants. THAT FIRST.
– I’d have him go where the women go when they are horny and want to meet cool guys. Bars, night clubs, after hours, concerts, expositions, parks, whatever, and I’d have him be the one acting and taking the lead and being “that guy”. FIRST.
THEN once the frame has some substance, expand it. Then maybe do daygame. Which should be nothing other than flirting with girls. Maybe not even Day-game, just game. Maybe not even game. Just life.
But how do you become THAT guy by chasing?
“you didnt need Daygame, you could have started straight on Girl Tornado, if you had tried that directly.”
The same thing that is preventing you from being “the cool guy”, or “the alpha version of you”, whatever excuse or reason you have to NOT go in that direction, is the same thing that prevented you from attempting to go in “Girl Tornado” directly, probably, you didnt know the option was there you didnt see the choice. So you took a choice based on your current reality, which is scarcity, and in that setup, chasing women looks reasonable because it’s coherent with reality.
But at the end – now you’re in Girl Tornado, and what you will have to learn to be successful with it, the end lesson, will require that you… go back and face whatever you have in you that is preventing you from being “the cool guy”, and didnt let you go for the tornado from day one.
In other words, all the other stuff you did is a distraction, postponing something that you are going to have to face anyway. You took an “easy road that is compatible with reality”, that may “eventually lead you to acquire enough experiences so you can start changing reality”, and you’ll find that as long as that “reality” is there, you will fail in your new setup, because the new setup belongs to another reality, that you will have to embrace.
So you could have just embraced the different reality from the beginning.
(And THIS and above is where my mind is all the time and why I dont really have commonalities with girls, and couldnt care less about when and how they got their first kiss or how they come)
But does it make sense? Look at you now – 4 different girls a week. Keep the pace and you’ll be banging 2 or more different girls a week. That’s exactly what I did for about two years. How long for you to let go of who you think you are, and ‘reality’? and change?
>> why does hunting women from the periphery
I just don’t agree with this starting point… She is walking down the street, I get in front of her. We now have a 2-person show. I am front and center in her world. I put myself there (which shows a lot of value, most men cannot do this, and this kind of confidence — if I’m confident – cannot be faked = value).
I’m not “preselected.” And all things created equal, YES, I will lose to preselected men. But… on the street… no one is preselected. And I create opportunity after opportunity for myself.
>> All the chasing will reinforce the beta frame.
>> An alpha guy can do “daygame” aka “flirt with girls” and all will be fine.
This is just about vocabulary, as I see it. I know you are talking about frames, and you’re correct about mental frames… but you are rigid here about the word “daygame. ” It’s a trigger for you.
You will argue for “daygame” as long as I call it “an alpha flirting on the street.” But if I call it daygame, you can’t see that *COULD BE* the same thing. Not always. Not every guy. Not every day. But often… that is the same exact thing.
>> All the taking notes and pain and gains will reinforce the beta frame
It depends on your POV… or… your “personal frame.” I might see the rejections. Or I might see the success. From the exact same day.
I’ll be specific… I see MYSELF, facing my fears, again and again, and doing what I need to do, to grow into a powerful man. I am proud of myself, 9 out of 10 sessions. I feel pride. I see commitment and other traits I respect, in myself.
I want validation (I’d be lying if I said otherwise, and I’m not here to lie to you, my brothers)… but when I go out, I go out to prove to myself I am showing up for my own life. I carry that PROOF of who I am, thru the rest of my day.
And if I said ^ this to a girl… she’d feel the power in these statements. I’m on my purpose. I’m not asking to be lead or to have my life fed to me. I will hunt. I will earn my kills. I will enjoy it it… I will love it. And I do.
Steve Jabba connects the dots here when he says “keep the positive ref experience, and throw away all the rest.” I think you would approve of him and his game. He is a “natural.” He is alpha. He still gets rejected, but he doesn’t see that… because he has excellent mental discipline. He only see the wins, and that’s a great frame.
I think your POV on daygame would be more interesting to me, if you said “you have to have the correct frame or this will not help you.” Instead, you get hung up on the vocab and repeat “if you call it daygame, it’s shite.” When, by your own standards, if an alpha does it, it’s fine.
Nash, thanks for keeping your mind open. I know this is a point where we’ll disagree, but that’s ok. Im curious about the questions I asked above, could you address them?
“daygame. ” It’s a trigger for you.”
When I talk about daygame, I mean having this as a sexual strategy:
– Talk to many women a day, ask for their phone numbers, occasionally have an instadate
– The ones that give you their phone numbers, set dates
– The ones that go in dates, do day 2 and day 3
– In the middle of all that, do “love bubble”, get her to invest, do funnel
– Try to have sex by day 3 (sooner is better of course)
That is not an “alpha” sexual strategy, and it’s not the same as an “alpha flirting in the street”.
As a sexual strategy, the setup I just described as “Daygame” is MAGNITUDES HARDER than being a valuable girl that girls want to have around. Daygame is a harder puzzle. Not harder in a way that makes you better – but harder in that way where the best player gets the easier puzzle, and the worse player gets the harder puzzle. All the good players are at the center of their tribes, because they are “that good”, and girls want to join in (and take possession), while the tribeless men are wondering around, and have to chase girls that wont give them time of the day – that sort of “harder” situation.
So if you had two options, to have it easy, or hard, with women, what would you pick?
Ah, the alpha sexual strategy is different to that funnel, in that alphas dont do funnels. I dont mean this in dumb way. Imagine the average male celebrity. Walking down the street, chatting with 20 girls, doing an autograph, then he sees a cute face, hey hello who are you? here are my details, let’s chat later, bye”
Back to you –
“I see MYSELF, facing my fears, again and again, and doing what I need to do, to grow into a powerful man.”
This is powerful. I tried to address to that desire in my intro questions. What is, if anything, preventing you from entering social circles and being the powerful man in these setups? using this power to make your job / skills into something that gives you social visibility?
” I am proud of myself, 9 out of 10 sessions. I feel pride. ”
Makes sense, you’re doing stuff to get what you want.
“I’m on my purpose.”
What is your purpose?
” I’m not asking to be lead or to have my lift fed to me. I will hunt. I will earn my kills. I will enjoy it it… I will love it. And I do.”
All that masculine drive, why are you not the leader of men, the center of the party, somewhere?
The girls want to know.
He’s a natural from what I’ve seen, a beast of sexual power, a very well defined product, for girls who are horny and want some alpha fuck asap. More power to him.
”I think your POV on daygame would be more interesting to me, if you said “you have to have the correct frame or this will not help you.””
Interesting, that’s what I think Im doing. Here’s what I said to Riv on this topic in another thread:
“Yohami doesnt believe that hitting girls when they are not looking for sex, in a setup where your value is not raised or assumed, and you have to display it in a short amount of time or be discarded, all after you’ve chased her because you’re scarce, is a good ENVIRONMENT for the AVERAGE GUY to learn the behaviors to be naturally good with women, and experience success quick”
My POV is that beta must become an alpha man or all the work is pointless, because when you operate from a frame you feed that frame.
It’s about the frame.
LOL, funny typo:
“MAGNITUDES HARDER than being a valuable [MAN, not girl!] that girls want to have around.”
But of course if you’re a hot lesbian your life is a piece of cake. At least sexually.
Yohami thinks that “chasing girls that aren’t interested in you is madness.”
Yohami, I’ve read this a couple times now and I’m curious to hear the alternative. Female hypergamy has radically changed things for the average male. The average male is unlikely to have many women interested in him for things that fit his needs (random sex, friends with benefits) other than extremely undesirable females (fat, ugly, etc.). If he’s lucky, a couple women will be interested in “dating” him or putting him in the beta provider role.
For an average guy, daygame is the only option left.
Female hypergamy is all there is. When a girl likes you that means you’re satisfying her hypergamy, it means she sees you above her, means she sees you in contrast to her boy tornado, or the men at her disposal, real and imagined, and you stand out favorably. When a girl doesnt look up to you, when you don’t satiate her hypergamy, then you’re nothing but a tool to her, a beta. She may be married to you but you have no value, you’re not a man.
Let’s assume that’s true.
That means it only makes sense to date down.
All the women below your value: that’s your market.
All the women equal above your value: there’s nothing but hell for you.
So if you’re an average, aka unattractive guy, the women below your value are the 4s and 3s. The 5s only want to use you as a beta tool. You’re screwed. What do you do?
Naturally, you increase your value so you’re not an average guy anymore.
Where Game fails, because of the marketing gurus, is in promising that you’ll get abs with no work or diet, or that you’ll bang 8s and 9s while being still an average guy, if you just become good at Game.
The selling point here, the hook, is this: BANG HOTTIES WITHOUT CHANGING.
Which is impossible, so they sell it as a long road, aka, you’ll have to do thousands of approaches, it will be horrible, but worth it at the end! it’s just a skill, follow these steps! but what happens if you actually do the stuff?
You change. You stop being the average guy. Your value raises. Now you can bang the 5s and 6s, and the occasional hottie who thinks your value is higher than hers.
There’s no cheating Hypergamy. The lesson here is that you must stop being the average guy, and be the exceptional guy. Let the average guys fuck themselves. They are not my problem, they are not your problem. Not every man has the balls to go in the streets and face his fears and approach women. You do. You’re not average. What you may not be doing is using your strengths to actually raise your value in a way that is sustainable. But it’s there, or you wouldnt be already breaking the norm and trying to get the prize.
So there’s no cheating hypergamy. There’s a lot of game that is posturing, faking it etc. You know what happens with it? you go through a screening process with the girl. She’ll evaluate you in 4 seconds and determine where you stand. If at a simple glance you stand below the kind of men she can get, there’s nothing you can do. If you stand among them, then she’ll screen you, she’ll offer “the puzzle” and give you opportunities to “turn her on”, and how you respond to that, and where you take her, ranks you among the men she can have, be near the top, and the lock opens. But she’ll screen the shit out of you as long as she’s not sure of your worth – and likewise if she’s sure of your worth she will present no puzzle at all, just her open legs.
So how do you pass through the whole thing? with actual value.
Heck – just check this post. “Extreme social savvy”. That’s real value. That’s the result of hundreds of interactions and being able to read human nature etc. That’s an actual trait. That changes your life. The more of the good top man traits you can acquire, the higher you rank. Imagine Nash and another guy picking up the same girl, Nash has the ESS and the other guy just pretends to have it, or not even: Nash takes the girl.
The real thing is the real thing.
If you can define what the real thing is, or the traits you must have, or the traits that are attractive, if you can define what value is, go and get it.
“BANG HOTTIES WITHOUT CHANGING.”
Even krauser says it somewhere: “Bang girls who are 2 points above your value”
Even Luke when he’s doing the promo for Social Game: “even a fat guy like me can bang the 10s”
Even Todd when promoting his Daygame: “I have no charisma, but I bang the hotties”
Tyler everywhere: “Im a balding ginger with a beer gut, yey!”
Max, while promoting The Natural: “Im just a nerdy guy”
They are either a bunch of idiots, or a bunch of idiots.
Julien doesnt do it, he calls it “Ten Game”, all his advise is on point. No fakery.
But how big is the market for the people who want to change, vs the market of men who want to bang “above their value”?
All these guys (hey maybe even Krauser) are not “average guys”. They are all leaders of men, with jobs that require dominance and social savyness, thousands of hours dealing with people, able to talk forever, command rooms, with loads of money in their banks accounts, assertive and going for what they want, traveling, with a lot of groupies of both sexes treating them like they are “the shit”, being always the coolest guy in the room, some of them good looking (Max) some with incredible social savy and sense of humor (Luke) dominant as fuck (julien) risky and bold, they are closer to acting and being like messiah reincarnated than the average joe etc. Whats “average” about it?
Then you can say “but they are not movie stars!” and “they are not ridiculously good looking” then I’ll say this:
They are still banging girls below their value. They raised their value. The value of a man is measured: hierarchy first, personality second, body third. They hit if off with personality. Hiearchy and body, they can lose.
If any of these guys is competing with DiCaprio for a girl, DiCaprio will take her.
You think you can win against hypergamy?
All these super PUAs are still not banging the supermodels. Because they are in the periphery of that world, not inside. The rules are always the same.
Luke has a good point on social circle about that – if you get inside of the super model world, and you’re the alpha guy there, then you’ll bang supermodels. Even with the Beer Gut.
As long as DiCaprio doesnt want the same girl.
This just popped up in my youtube recommendations, you’re a KING
>> he value of a man is measured: hierarchy first, personality second, body third.
This is awesome, Yohami. I believe this, 100%.
I can connect this to daygame, when I say: The “relative” hierarchy is minimized in daygame. The hierarchy that she faces is:
— What options do I have in life before this guy came up to me
— How cool is he?
— How does he compare to my hierarchy?
We are one on one, so other men at that moment don’t exist.
And if my PERSONALITY is amazing (and just a bold approach is already some evidence of that), then I’m with your model here… and she has reason to bite. If I happen to be good looking, even more so.
This point, is very solid. I love it.
>> Female hypergamy is all there is.
I believe this, 100%.
I don’t think it’s cynical. I think this is basic biology. She wants the best offer for her and her kid… she doesn’t really care about us, unless we’re the best offer. Makes perfect sense.
I just want to see clearly. I’m not mad. I just want to see. I’m beginning to see.
“Yohami is right — we need references experience of girls chasing us. And girls chase high-value men. Yes. That’s right. But to Krauser’s point… extreme social savvy is very attractive. It’s high value.”
great summary and synthesis of point, nash.
you are really helping things make sense.
you are not only on fire with the chicks, you are on fire with the theory!
First off… Credit: Krauser. That guy is a legitimate genius with women. One of the most compelling analysts with women/mating/dating, I’ve ever seen. And I have studied everyone, extensively.
As for my part… I am curious… I want comradery with all of you… we’ll figure out MANY STRATEGIES… together.
I’m glad to give us some case studies to look at. And I’m grateful to look at this work together.
“Enrolled as many social things possible, acting classes” — daygame is free acting class. you get on stage, she is watching you, you get over your stage fright.
” you get over your stage fright.”
Do you get over the beta frame too?
>> daygame is free acting class. you get on stage, she is watching you, you get over your stage fright.
Exactly. And that “class” starts and stops whenever I want it to, wherever I want it to. And the “girls in the class” are always changing. And I’m a badass for knowing this… and not getting in line in some “acceptable way” to take girls “the way I’m supposed to.”
Aight. My comment about acting classes has a different connotation. I did “improv” for a couple years, at several different workshops. You get things from there, skills, taught and repeated, and social circles of people who are into acting, which tend to be full of girls with high libido and low morals.
So the “improv” thing gives you skills on its own, and is not structured like “pick up”, it’s not about “getting better at a technique” but “get deeper into yourself, do whatever comes to mind, and learn to not give an actual fuck”, while at the same time teaches you crowd control since people do laugh and boo as you come up with shit.
I found so many insecurities based on the stories that I would come up with while improvising, and also strengths. So it’s a form of social therapy.
Talking to girl 1 on 1 to get into her pants is not the same thing. Necessary but not the same.
I dont know if you saw that comment Nash, it was a long time ago. I advised that you’d go in the street and talked to a lot of people without any agenda, just one thing: learning what made them tick, or “what they responded to and what they didnt respond to”. Back then I said a couple of weeks of that and you should be banging left and right. This was before your girl tornado.
Talking to random people about whatever and learning about what makes them move is a more similar skill to acting, in the context Im using it.
“Female hypergamy is all there is.” – Yohami
again, all he sees is value. in his pickup model, trust does not exist.
he believes that the minute she realizes he is higher value than her, she wants to get on her knees and suck his cock.
no need to get to know him, to develop trust for him.
it’s a very cynical model, in a way. and i am guessing it comes from years of experience being chased by power-hungry and fame-hungry girls — which sounds great, but clearly can fuck with your head.
Riv, what are you defending, and what are you critiquing exactly? I ask because every of the points you bring up are either a misrepresentation, or a “duh”. So what is it? go to my other comment where I ask you about the Madonna/Whore good girl thing. I’ld like to get your ideas there.
“again, all he sees is value.”
What I see is irrelevant. What women see is what you should pay attention to. What do they see?
“in his pickup model, trust does not exist.”
Im not describing a pickup model, Im describing the world as it is and what women respond to.
I asked you about this Trust idea since you keep bringing it up, this is what you said:
“[TRUST IS] is he safe? is he normal? will he kill me? will he rape me?”
I find interesting that you bring this as a component of game. Do you find yourself doing things that demonstrate that you are safe, normal, you wont kill her, you wont rape her? if so, why do you need to bring these up, do you feel that if you wouldnt, then she would feel threatened by you? is your base assumption that she’s scared of you, thinks you’re not normal, are going to kill her and rape her? what’s going on here?
Look – what makes a girl feel the safest is being in the company of a strong dominant man, bigger than her, who is chilling and having a good time, pressing the right buttons, with social and intrapersonal intelligence, making her laugh and sharing interesting, fun moments. Having sex with that man makes her feel safe. Being embraced by that man makes her feel safe. “Trust” is the result of that man being congruent, and since we’re talking sex, congruent with high value. Since women get grossed out by low value.
If you were coming from an Omega frame I’d understand that you need to explicitly communicate to the girl that you’re not a creep and not dangerous. That is not assumed from high value men – ironically, being dangerous is a turn on, if you’re a high value man, because EVERYTHING coming from high value is a turn on, and EVERYTHING coming from low value is creepy to women.
But is this something you can see in the world? do you differ? if so, how?
So: “in his pickup model, trust does not exist.”
Is false. You’ll gain her trust while addressing her puzzle and turning her on.
If we adhere to the definition you are giving, you’re excluding a bunch of girls. This mix of Trust is not universal:
“is he safe?”
Lots of girls dont like safe. Think of your needles girl.
” is he normal?”
Lots of girls dont like normal. But you know that: all the appeal of your IFF (internal frame fucked up?) is counting on a segment of girls not liking normal.
“will he kill me?”
Some girls like killers, check girls who are into soldiers, girls who are into serial killers – hey not my type, just saying
“will he rape me?”
And disturbingly enough, girls have rape fantasies. So for a bunch of them, a “yes he would rape you” would make her want to be with you. Check every story of the blondie girl hanging out with the gang that raped her. She surely didnt see that coming.
So when you say that Trust is needed in game, what do you mean exactly?
I like my definition of “giving her what she wants”, “solving her puzzle” and “turning her on”. The result of that will be that she experiences comfort and trust, though no necessarily the mix you prescribed.
“he believes that the minute she realizes he is higher value than her, she wants to get on her knees and suck his cock.”
That’s just true. I advise that you get more female friends and listen to them talk. That’s a travel to the red pill faster than anything I can write here. Go ahead and let it break your heart.
“no need to get to know him, to develop trust for him.”
Correct. Have you heard of this thing called “celebrity crush”? girls dont need to “know” the guy to be horny for the guy. Just like you dont need to know the girl to be horny for the girl.
“it’s a very cynical model”
“i am guessing it comes from years of experience being chased by power-hungry and fame-hungry girls”
You give me more credit than I deserve – I am not that famous. So no, you’re wrong.
“which sounds great, but clearly can fuck with your head.”
It would be great if you could put your ideas together, and present an argument.
Thinking some more about this. Maybe you see Trust as a such important component of seduction, for the same reason you’re doing Daygame – as in, you approach lone women from the periphery, like a lone wolf jumping on sheep, so half your work is to get her to not escape?
This is the only thing I can think of. But if you pay attention. Let’s say that you scare the shit out of her and she runs away, where does she go to?
To the nearest strong man who can kill the wolf. That strong confident man that laughs at danger and makes her feel safe just by being there, the man that she and every other girl would love to be able to spend some more time with.
That would be me.
Jokes aside, that would be the archetype she runs towards. The high male inside of the tribe. If you are running game from the periphery you are, by definition, the creep. I can see why infusing “Im normal Im not a Rapist” is important in that case.
You “chose” the worst possible setup to approach the girls.
“worse” is a matter of opinion though. Did you chose that because you like that more from all the models, or is it your only choice, aka, not a choice at all? are you able to be the man in the center, the man she runs to when she’s in danger, the man that doesnt “need” to demonstrate he’s safe because HE IS safety, dripping down, are you able to be that, and from all the models you decided to jump on women from the shadows?
Is it a choice or you have no choice?
If you have no choice, why?
>> I like my definition of “giving her what she wants”, “solving her puzzle” and “turning her on”.
And your point of “give her (more of) what she wants (and less of what she doesn’t)” is in my head all the time. I know it sounds “obvious,” but I am concentrating on that point on dates and it’s helping me know where to go next. Sort of obvious… sort of not.
>> If you are running game from the periphery you are, by definition, the creep. I can see why infusing “Im normal Im not a Rapist” is important in that case.
Hmmmm. Practical point:
I often ask girls, “are you okay?” when they make a weird face after I approach (I smile as I say it). It’s not weird of girls to want to protect themselves. I don’t see that as a reflection of me, at all.
So I say, “Are you okay?” And that is a frame that says she is acting a little weird in the situation (as opposed to me acting weird by assuming she/I can chat for a minute… no big deal, she/I are cool… talking a minute is not weird).
For me, that’s not “gamey,” it’s another type of calibration. The part I see is her funny face… that’s my reality. This is fun, she/I are cool, so that face is kind of funny. I know she is cool.. that’s what I want to see from her.
And what that comment does – and I say that comment all the time – is she looks at herself and settles down. Works very well. She will shift, given that perspective, and still act “more normal.” Often she’ll go back to “alert,” again. And I’ll give her more proof that she/I are cool, and she’s calm down again. We build trust, on the spot. Normal.
She does not know me, I’m not preselected… true. So it’s normal for her to be on a alert… until she sees who I am. In 2 min, I can demo value, she can see I’m high value…. and she will get with the program or I go off to the next girl. Cool. No problem.
I’m actually more and more into your frame arguments… I want to employ the truth there.
If my reality is tight, she will get sucked in. Of course this is “safe,” she’s with me. It might take her a minute or two to get that, but she’ll get that. The first date is another chance to demo that I am high value. Daygame is just the first step.
And social savvy is one way to prove to her that she is safe… and demonstrate my skills at the same time.
“I am concentrating on that point on dates and it’s helping me know where to go next.”
Yes, that’s the pulse, that’s what you have to pay attention to, all while trying the quickest, bestest checkmate available – aka fulfilling your own agenda of fucking her asap.
In a way this is that Game / PUA calls “calibration”. But when calibration is mentioned this is about your own behavior and testing some unreferenced temperature.
This thing that “she responds to” IS the temperature. That’s what you calibrate to. Not to an ideal, not to a plan, not to your preferences, not to your previous experience, but to that girl, right there, waiting for you to take the lead in “the very specific way that she wants it”. It’s like she’s offering the clit, right on your face, are you able to see it? saw it?what are you going to do with it?
Without it, all the calibration is done against a ghost or a rule book and makes you offsync with the girl, leaving you and her frustrated.
>> If you are running game from the periphery you are
I am running game from the goddamn center of the world… which is… my life! : ]
“I am running game from the goddamn center of the world… which is… my life! : ]”
That’s a good frame, and it’s true.
This is where you’re ZEN… very Yohami.
If I argue with you that what I’m doing is cool… you’ll bury me in Yohami Wisdom… just like a Zen master would bury his student who complained about some part of the training. But a proper Zen Koan is only passed by “a deeper understanding.” If I just change the frame… my Sensei smiles.
Yep. Because it’s the who, not the what. What is broken is the frame, not the action – the action is only broken because of the who is doing it. Identical actions have different meanings and repercussions. Or, when Justin Bieber says hi to a girl, it’s not the same as when I say hi to the girl
If you go back – from the beginning my point of attack of daygame is that it’s sustented in the wrong frame. You’ve been correctly addressing it “if an alpha does it, is fine!!”. The solution for the koan is “be alpha”. Daygame is irrelevant.
We can talk day and night about how to peel an orange. At the end it doesnt matter. The girl will see you and you’ll be in front of her. Who are you?
If you’re in front of her because you’re scarce, you’re screwed.
Then I have all these other considerations about what’s the best environment to learn game. I’d throw the students in how water, aka Girl Tornado, from day one. Anyone saying it’s not possible doesnt have the whole picture. Look at the whole picture before making a choice – that’s what I say.
” Or, when Justin Bieber says hi to a girl, it’s not the same as when I say hi to the girl”
When I say hi it’s more powerful. :-D
Something you can try –
Get your phone and chat with your 5-6 girls, get the banter you’re doing with one and use it in another, mix them up, raise the temperature. When you’re “hot”, include a few other girls from dating sites or dead leads in your setup, so you are talking to 10 girls or more. Go out and talk to girls – but this is important – with the MINIMUM amount of investment and less amount of giving a fuck possible, do a passing remark, throw a funny sexual banter to a waitress, say something to the cute girl that you see X, dont chase, dont yadstop (unless you see a drop dead gorgeous girl and is mandatory), keep it light fresh. Do this with men and whatever else, if something catches your attention, socialize, all while KEEPING the “hot” you have all this time with your chat harem right there. Treat everyone, every girl out there, like she’s already yours.
That’s the alpha starting point to game.
The girls that will open, engage them in conversation, pay attention to what they respond to, what they volunteer, what they dont, pay attention to the puzzle offered, it’s aways quick and upfront, and what turns them “on” or what lights them up, double down in what gains energy, and suppress what doesnt.
This will get you laid before you ask for numbers.
“>> All the chasing will reinforce the beta frame.
>> An alpha guy can do ‘daygame’ aka ‘flirt with girls’ and all will be fine.
This is just about vocabulary, as I see it. I know you are talking about frames, and you’re correct about mental frames… but you are rigid here about the word ‘daygame.’ It’s a trigger for you.
You will argue for ‘daygame’ as long as I call it ‘an alpha flirting on the street.’ But if I call it daygame, you can’t see that *COULD BE* the same thing. Not always. Not every guy. Not every day. But often… that is the same exact thing.”
i agree with your insight here. why do you think yohami has such an allergic reaction to the word “daygame”?
>> i agree with your insight here. why do you think yohami has such an allergic reaction to the word “daygame”?
I got this one… from Yohami suggesting an exercise for me on this thread:
” Go out and talk to girls – but this is important – with the MINIMUM amount of investment… dont chase, dont yadstop.”
This is what Yohami doesn’t like. I get it now… I just got it now. He really doesn’t like the *effort*, focused on the girls. That makes sense. I don’t frame daygame like that, but I get what he’s saying here. And this is central to Alpha Game… Alphas run a boss, publicly visible life and the girls are hovering around them, and it takes minimal effort for those Alphas to get what they want, so they can do so with little effort. I get it, that’s smart. Yohami is right… but it doesn’t mean that many of us in daygame aren’t also right, at the same time, for different reasons.
Yes, hierarchy rules. Yes, in all situations where many folks are present, Alpha wins status and rewards. But Alpha game is not the only game in town. Alpha game is always correct… but in other frames, and without contradicting anything about alpha game, some guys are taping into women in a real way.
“This is what Yohami doesn’t like. I get it now… I just got it now. He really doesn’t like the *effort*”
It’s not the effort, it’s the frame. An Alpha can put effort and do yadstop – when the situation merits it. What Im trying to get you to do is move away from one frame into another.
It’s not the “effort” but WHY you’re putting the effort. You may think this something you can calibrate but this is the first thing girls will smell, and this is what you’re telegraphing in everything you do. The WHO is the thing that comes across first.
If Justin Biever does a yadstop is not the same as you or me doing a yadstop. If Gene Simmons or Trump do a classical “beta” behavior is not the same as you or me doing the same behavior.
So what Im trying here is to show you some ways that are uniquely alpha and cannot be anything else but alpha, and will signal the girl straight away – so you can have an alpha feedback loop that lets you grow the proper frame.
Because chasing girls, coming from the wrong frame, will do nothing but feedback fuel the wrong frame.
I meant to say this when I posted the SNL “sexual harassment” video. You have the unattractive guy and the attractive guy do the same things, the girl responds to the guy, not to the action.
The fix for the unattractive guy is not to keep perfecting the action, getting better at the action, but to raise his value. Doing the “hello I want to take you for dinner” a thousand times and getting rejected 999 is not the path for him to get the same results as the attractive guy who does it 100 times and gets 99 positive responses. The solution is to raise his value. More emphasis on raising value and less emphasis on technique.
Changing frame / raising value will make all the rest flow from there, body language to tone to everything else.
“But Alpha game is not the only game in town.”
That’s wrong, ask the girls.
“some guys are taping into women in a real way.”
The girls are seeing you as the alpha, and they open, and shut you off when they stop seeing you as the alpha. The ones that dont see you as the alpha, never open.
Check your notes and do stats.
yohami is saying some great stuff — and he is getting better at saying it too — but what sinks his argument and makes him look deluded and egocentric is his insistence that daygame DOES NOT work and never will work — meanwhile, nash is getting some kick ass results, as of course are krauser and torero. it is kind of funny, like the “move along, nothing to see here” from the naked gun.
yohami, if you would just admit that you are wrong, that daygame DOES work, but maybe something like, “it works but it is dangerous because it wastes too much time and reinforces the wrong frame” — then, all of a sudden, you sound much more credible.
Riv… I really don’t think Yohami is “wrong.” haha. Plus, we both know… the first rule of Yohami is “Yohami is always right.” : ]
Yohami is right. There is real opportunity in daygame that he can barely see… but he’s only “wrong” when he says “daygame doesn’t work.” Daygame clearly works. But that’s not where he usually focuses. He usually focus on the model he likes… which is a correct model. He’s right. He says “do this instead.” And that’s not bad advice. It’s not the only game in town, but it’s not bad advice.
Daygame doesn’t have to disprove Yohami to yield results. In fact, daygame would have a hard time disproving Yohami.
>> It’s not the “effort” but WHY you’re putting the effort.
This is his addition to what I thought he might say… I’m soaking in this right now.
>> It’s not the effort, it’s the frame.
This is where Yohami hangs up on the typical daygame model. If Yohami was out hunting, specifically via daygame, and he wasn’t getting a very high % of love from those girls, Yohami would feel beta. That would not help Yohami’s “Beiber” alpha frame. That’s my guess. But I feel proud and happy when I’m out hunting. I got physically turned on by one girl yesterday… hot set. I don’t feel beta at all. I feel like a hunter. This is my frame.
If your frame is solid, and you’re not delusional, Yohami can get onboard.
This is all me trying to understand Yohami.
“but he’s only “wrong” when he says “daygame doesn’t work.””
I don’t think I have ever said that.
“Daygame clearly works.”
You’re living proof that “it works”. A bunch of videos from Tyler, Todd, julien have them picking girls during day. Steve Jabba is proff that “it works”, I remember one from Yad where he kisses a girl from russia? in under ten min, this back from a time when I barely had Game, it blew my mind.
Im not attacking daygame from a “does it work” mentality, but attacking the FRAME that backs it up. Coincidentally, it’s the same frame that would ask “does daygame work” which is why I know I probably never said these words.
If you’re an Alpha everything works. You can try “farting in a packed elevator” Game, and pick up girls.
If you’re a Beta nothing will work, not even being rich and famous with a huge dick. Ask the Madisson brothers from Good Charlotte. There’s a video of one of them judging The Voice, going on his knees and giving flowers to a cute contestant so she accepts him as her tutor – she picks Ricky Martin. Even a gay Alpha has more pull than a straight good looking rockstar Beta.
My critique of Daygame is that it’s not a good setup – when compared to all the other setups – to develop an Alpha frame. So my gut feeling is that someone who embraces Daygame has other issues with the Alpha frame and that’s why Daygame is preferred.
“If Yohami was out hunting, specifically via daygame, and he wasn’t getting a very high % of love from those girls, Yohami would feel beta.”
I would get the love of the girls, I get the love of the girls by doing nothing, just standing still. But chasing after plain janes, getting their numbers, saving them in a list, wanting to do a specific number of them a month, ALL OF THIS would TURN me into a beta, more specifically, it would regress me to a frame where I CARE about the results to VALIDATE myself.
“I don’t feel beta at all. I feel like a hunter. This is my frame.”
You would have to have both frames available to compare, otherwise how do you know what is what? At the core, every man thinks he’s an Alpha. That’s the beauty of it. You’re an Alpha, you’re fighting the good fight to be King. That’s what I said earlier “everyone has that desire”.
You just happen to be in a frame that is not compatible with you actually achieving it.
If you persevere, with the incentive of having multiple girls all demanding that you come through or they will ditch you, aka Girl Tornado, you’ll be forced to change frames or crash an burn, there’s no way out, no happy ending for beta, no toys or consolation prizes. Keep following the puzzle, keep paying attention to the behaviors in you that are rewarded, which ones are punished, and you take these behaviors to your life and treat every new girl with these, keep raising the bar, and you’ll reach “alpha”, just a different version of it, different from what is motivating you now.
“This is all me trying to understand Yohami.’
Cheers man! see if you can respond to the questions I made, that would let me understand more.
“Daygame clearly works. But that’s not where he usually focuses. He usually focus on the model he likes… which is a correct model. He says ‘do this instead.’ And that’s not bad advice. It’s not the only game in town, but it’s not bad advice.” -Nash
nash, i know what you mean, and i feel that you are now the perfect student to learn from yohami because you can apply his teachings and also see the humor in his “i am always right” shtick.
but you taking his advice and not being critical of his advice — does that help yohami?
my goal is to try and *improve* his message and correct his obvious flaws.
What are the obvious flaws? please take write them down. Make a list.
“The girls that will open, engage them in conversation, pay attention to what they respond to, what they volunteer, what they dont, pay attention to the puzzle offered, it’s aways quick and upfront, and what turns them “on” or what lights them up, double down in what gains energy, and suppress what doesnt.”
yohami, this part of what you are saying i do really like a lot.
“pay attention to the puzzle offered” is a great line. i think THE PUZZLE could be one of the chapters in your book.
I’m mentioning Yohami’s “Puzzle Game” in my next post… I was just thinking about that concept as relates to where I am with Miss Shanghai. Good metaphor.
Following up in the frames thing, I’ll run some comparisons in FRAMES. Now assume both BETA and ALPHA result in the SAME IDENTICAL ACTION:
1) When you see the girl and want to say hi
ALPHA: that’s hot, I so want my dick inside of her, “Hey you!”
BETA: she’s out of me league and Im intimidated but I will approach her anyway, I’ll try to be confident
2) When you’re with the girl
ALPHA: this bitch is so into me, I’ll tease her some, where’s that giggle?
BETA: I wonder if she likes me, Im going to try to push the envelope and raise the temperature to find out
3) When you wanna kiss her
ALPHA: come here
BETA: is now the right time? would I get blown out?
4) When in an environment where sex can happen, like your apartment
ALPHA: come here I want to feel these boobs and pussy, mmm this feels good
BETA: I want to fuck her, I’ll move to the next base, I’ll try not to fuck this up
So all of this resulted in both frames producing the same action, you said “hey you”, you did rapport, you went for a kiss, you escalated in your apartment – all is compatible with both frames, but what she is screening for and reacting to is the Alpha frame. You’re going through the motions and moving AS IF you’re the alpha, even if Beta.
Until you fuck up one move and expose the beta, then she’ll pull the breaks and increase the puzzle, to see where you’re coming from.
How do you fuck up you ask?
The ALPHA frame assumes victory, assumes low effort, flow, she wants it, it’s not work, it’s abundant, she’s replaceable, she’s hot for you, you’ll fuck her, it wont matter to you. The investment is close to zero, it’s so low that you actually get more energy for her investment in you than you lose by pursuing her. You’re self amused and detached and high risk because you really don’t give a fuck. At the same time that means you’re open and “vulnerable” in the sense that you’re not using a mask to get her, because that wasnt a problem at any moment, she’s not that special for you to have to fake and protect yourself. She’s nothing.
The BETA frame assumes rejection but attempts victory, assumes that there’s work, problems to solve, has to convince the girl to want him and secure her affection, she’s a rare one that has been responding to him so he better not fuck it up, she’s not decided yet but is opening to him, would like to fuck her but better not to rush things, because THIS MATTERS. There’s lots of investment and it’s a draining experience. You try to amuse yourself since you know it’s attractive, and try to be detached but ultimately all this is a dance to get into her pants without scaring her. You’re protected under layers and layers of masks and somewhere in there is the real you, but lets better not bring that up, not yet, lots of sour experiences there.
When beta frame shows up, and it doesnt match “the specific personal preferences of the girl” or what I call “the freak” (the snowflake), you fuck up. All the time you’re doing seduction, all you’re doing is shape-fitting into Alpha frame, acting like a man who knows what he wants, goes for what he wants, and simultaneously is proactive, relaxed, knows how to win, doenst invest too much, doesnt give a fuck, but gets it done. It’s the winner frame.
Every girl wants a different part of that picture, that frame, but it’s always the same picture. Different aspects of it, different flavors. If she girl is insecure then she wants the “wanted” part of the picture, if she’s independent then she wants the “detached” part of the picture, but it’s always a picture from the ALPHA frame, for her to open sexually.
What’s wrong with Game, and also with Krauser game, and almost all pickup, it’s that it is all catered to the BETA frame, it’s more techniques, ways to do things, setups, frameworks, for the Beta frame. Read it along and recognize yourself, I know that I do in part and specially remember all the times that was exactly how I operated, and how much mindfuck some of the techniques were against me, like “flipping the script” “playing hard to get” “negs” “self amusement” etc, when all I wanted was to give the girl everything good, exchange little in return, and show her how much I CARED, and how SPECIAL she was to me.
But girls are attracted sexually to the men at the top of the pyramid, and the behaviors that go along with it, and the ALPHA frame is the bone structure where these behaviors come from.
So how do you acquire it?
You have to go deeper and see why you dont have it in the first place, and fix that. It is VERY FUCKING HARD to adopt behaviors from a frame that you dont incarnate, it means posturing and trial and error and imitation and lots of shit eating, and being uncomfortable all while doing it. If your base reality is BETA and that means you want to show the girl that YOU CARE but you KNOW that she’ll respond better to you NOT CARING, but you also know she likes that you ARE YOURSELF but WHO YOU ARE is someone who needs her and is weak, HOW THE FUCK do you get out of that puzzle? well you put yourself in that situation by acting out of your slot in life. The result will always be the same, you’ll fuck it up, the girl will ditch you, and once and again all the work and time and energy you put in the structure, it all will be wasted and collapse.
Just like it did for me like sixty times.
What do you get out of this? the man that you become. In other words, the frame you acquire.
If you put emphasis on becoming alpha from the start, as opposed to a beta running game, then you’re doing the right thing that is ultimately the end goal, all while making SEDUCTION EASIER.
So it blows my mind why this is always such a contrived point in the community.
And why I started my comments here with these questions – that nobody answered so far.
What’s stopping you from moving into alpha?
Are you aware that’s where you’re going anyway? will be the key that makes you succeed, or make you fuck up for not having it, every time?
What’s going on.
nash, you don’t have twitter?
No. Maybe someday… but not now.
Zelcorpion’s post at Riv’s, pasting it here for context, because I think it’s pertinent
“I think he is way too off in the territory of creating a massive passive value. The epitomy of Yohami’s “game” is Justin Bieber. While in reality many B-movie celebs can outfuck Yohami as well depending on whether they are known to women in the prime.
Celebrity is almost a passive value. Sure – you can work on it to a degree even with the help of Instagram and a guy like Dan Bilzerian has used his wealth to do just that. But it is not to everyone’s liking to do so and also most jobs even with great wealth do not transport to fantastic fame. Fame is only useful for getting laid easily and not much else beyond that – it’s even a pain in the ass at higher stages.
So his insistance on the fame ladder is just stupid. The ladder in terms of market value is there of course. Justin Bieber is a male 12. A male 10 is a model-looks billionaire scion with massive Game. And he will still be outfucked by a Leo DiCaprio or Justin Bieber. But that ladder can only be bypassed via fame and fame alone. Money and Game will bring you as a male closer to the 8-9 level even if you are not overly good-looking. The sexual market value ladder is real.
But then that is where Daygame skills enter the fray. You can work on cutting bodyfat and optimizing your look, but the Game aspects gives you a massive push without any passive attraction tools. it gives you the ability to approach and successfully seduce those girls that are at least marginally attracted to you. That is a huge leg up and depending on the girl raises your actual individual case by case market value potentially 4 points. Many PUAs talk about having zero chemistry before learning Game and then suddenly being able to bed hundreds of girls with the very same body or fame level. Game has permeated them and the bedding of girls has created massive self-reinforcing self-confidence in them. Without Daygame skills this would not be possible.
I think that Yohami does have Game, but has shifted towards passive value creation that gives him a flow of pussy. That is all good and well to create his own biosphere. But not everyone can become Justin Bieber. But everyone can become a more attractive man and everyone can learn to seduce women when he sees them in life being a janitor, a businessman, a barista, a professor or a manager. It is not only useless advice based on – BE FAMOUS or BE NOTHING.”
Here’s the idea succint:
1) To women, male Alpha qualities are value.
2) All you do in seduction is display Alpha male qualities to the girl, and then taking her, “acting” on her desire when she’s ready. Taking her is also an Alpha male quality.
3) Men with Alpha male qualities tend to outperform other men, and win in life, economically, in social groups, etc
4) Women start their screening process from the top of the social structure they are in, to the bottom. In other words, when screening for males they seek the top popular guy, and down from there. The hotter a girl is (the higher value) the more she’ll demand high value in a male, aka, more alpha qualities.
5) The screening stops at the girl’s self perceived value. Men of her same or lower value are discarded in favor of higher value men. This results in her competing for attention and offering herself, making it easy for, aka “chasing” high value men.
Do we agree on that?
Here’s what I propose:
Go along with the process, enrol in a life that requires that you develop your Alpha traits. What are alpha traits? dominance, confidence, social swagger, social intelligence, life skills, charisma, humor. Use that to Win in life and put yourself in a place where you can grow into the best version of yourself. Not best in a “useful way”, but best in that you’re fully realized. Grow up like fucking powerful man. While you climb towards what you want, bang every woman that you like.
There’s nothing “passive” about this. If you are just given the spot and you happen to be at the top, good looking and famous, you will still be screened by the girls who will be looking for the Alpha traits in you, and will discard you if they dont find them. Life is hard for rich famous good looking betas. Imagine the horde of girls coming your way, only to leave shortly after in disappointment. The hierarchy determines who gets screened first, NOTHING ELSE.
When I say “climb the ladder” Im saying USE YOUR FUCKING STRENGTH TO MAKE YOURSELF THE MAN, instead of using your energy in chasing girls who are chasing other men. Be that other man instead.
I used to use “Brad Pitt” when bringing the idea of an uber male that all girls would say yes to. Now Pitt is too old and has shown too many shades of beta, so he no longer applies. I think Bieber is a teenager lesbian, but that doesnt matter.
When I say Bieber Im invoking the memory of the hotel in front of my apartment in Buenos Aires. When Bieber would stay there for a few days, there were hundreds and hundreds of girls camping around the building, screaming like crazy animals every time a car would pass by, every time somebody would come in or out of the hotel, thinking it was him. The screaming was so loud it was impossible to be at home, and I was in the 24th floor.
That is, plainly, how girls experience their own sexuality. When a high enough value man is around, THEY SIMPLY LOSE IT.
“The epitomy of Yohami’s “game” is Justin Bieber.”
Bieber is not “Game”, but an example of how girls react to high value. Then you can determine if you want to use that to work for you, or against you.
“While in reality many B-movie celebs can outfuck Yohami”
“So his insistance on the fame ladder is just stupid.”
Im not making any insistence on the fame ladder.
RAISING YOUR VALUE
“Many PUAs talk about having zero chemistry before learning Game and then suddenly being able to bed hundreds of girls”
That’s my story as well.
“Game has permeated them and the bedding of girls has created massive self-reinforcing self-confidence in them. Without Daygame skills this would not be possible.”
Your skills are actual traits. Your ability to talk to women, read women, understand what they want, and deliver. The changes in your personality. The confidence, dominance, etc, all of that is REAL VALUE, they are actual Alpha traits, the more you stop pretending them and the more they become real.
These are not “Daygame skills”.
And “Daygame skills” are not enough. PUA skills are not enough. Dealing with women goes way beyond taking their number, going on a date. The game doesnt really start until you’re spinning plates, in and out of relationships.
Abundance is not the end goal, it’s the path. To have abundance you need to be high value. Becoming high value is hard. But the higher value you are the better your chances with women. The value includes “Game skills”, not limited to it.
THE EVERYONE ARGUMENT
“But not everyone can become Justin Bieber. BE FAMOUS or BE NOTHING.”
Yeah well – that would be a stupid thing to say. What I advocate for men who want to become good with women, is they place themselves in a situation where they can be the alphas, the high value man, of whatever jobs or groups that match their interests. That way they can incline the balance and be contextual-alphas, which will give them enough space to play and learn in the proper frame, as opposed to chasing girls from their actual value, which is a waste of precious time.
Why a waste of precious time?
Because the contextual alpha of whatever group has pussy coming to you without having to chase it – which will remind you of the true nature of women (which is different that what you see when you see their backs chasing other men, different than when you’re a beta being their asexual friend), plus devaluating pussy because of that abundance, helping you detach from it. A job or a lifestyle were youre required to be Alpha, aka, a dominant guy in charge of things and responsible for things, where your opinion matters and you can expect to be pleased – so you dont have this dissonance from the person you have to be when you pick up, vs the person you’re the rest of the time.
If anything, Im saying “turn the game on”.
CONT. Why Daygame a waste of precious time? – forgot to compare against Daygame.
Talking to 20 women a day for 1-2 min, where 18 of them decline, one is a a dead lead, and one chats with you before stop responding – that’s not enough to get good at this. Do
Put 60 days in intensely raising your own value instead. That includes talking to women and lots of people. Heck it can even include doing Daygame the same 60 days as an excercise in breaking your own barriers. But raise the value. Become more dominant and shit, improve looks, body, expand, climb, fight the fight.
You can watch RSD Max when he started 2 years ago and what he is now. Or me before and after my sucessive iterations of Game and moving up. There’s no reason why you can’t teleport into a higher state, it all requires is that you know it’s possible – which is why Im here writing it.
Well know that it’s possible, then to actually do it.
“The hierarchy determines who gets screened first, NOTHING ELSE.”
All the hundreds of girls camping in front of Bieber’s hotels, all around the world wherever he goes, are not going to bang him. Maybe a few will, but then they go back to their own reality like the rest of the girls. All of them leave and go back to their lives, where they will try the “best second thing after Bieber”, or “the bieber they may have a shot at”, AKA the popular, cool guy from the smaller tribes they belong to, not as valuable as Bieber but they will take the best semen they can get. Eventually they run out of options and may settle for an available beta, always keeping an eye out for the Biebers.
When girls came to my parties I was the first guy they’d check. But I never fucked anyone at my parties ( I dont wanted to be “that guy” that uses parties to fuck, my parties were to have fun and create social value ). So the girls screened my first, flirting back and forth, the usual stuff. Four five hours later they would be with another guy who was six seven steps down in the ladder of value, after the more popular, cool guys had been screened and they had picked other girls.
Then some girls where unlucky, still fuckable but lonely, and chased by a bunch of guys. Once in a while one of the guys would be lucky. A couple of the guys at the top, some my friends, knew of Game and pickup and were doing well. Then some of the guys at the bottom, the ones girls would never go to by default were doing most of the chasing and PUA-like stuff, would get laid once in a long while.
It’s a pyramid.
Here’s “alpha” doing yadstop to a car full of girls and kissing one in under a minute
The key is that they were screaming at the group of men, inviting for action – so the pickup is a response, all the effort, chase, etc, fits. Max is the alpha of that group who responded to the call
This happened to me a few times with buses full of girls going to a bachelor party, tour buses, girls going in groups to costume parties and what not