Shit Tests and Frame: A Case Study
I recently met this lovely, young girl – we’ll call her Miss 19. Pickup was solid. Got her out: Nice daytime coffee date (I was excited about her). Got her out again, did the “coffee to makeout” plan and she got the first kiss of her young life (yes, really). And then we had another date (back to my place) where the little thing and I “made it to second base” – and she felt a hand down her pants (another first for her). And then… before what would be our fourth date, Miss 19 tossed a shit test into my seduction.
“When she [tests you] – she will play. It’s play as long as you’re playing. As soon as you take it seriously, it’s game over, you lose, and she can’t trust you. For most of us, that is most of the time.”
— Deida
Below we’ll look at her shit test and review some suggested ways to respond.
Then I’ll show you what I did. And as we talk though this case study, I’ll breakdown some opportunities deepen our understanding of Game.
HER SHIT TEST:
How it started:
ME: What are you doing today?
HER: I am going on a date
Why would a nice girl say something like that to a guy she likes?
“If she views you as a contender, she will test you. A woman often won’t even bother to test a low-value male; instead, she will just become non-responsive and then leave as soon as possible. A test can be considered an indicator of interest of sorts.”
— From “Mystery Method”
Miss 19 is young and inexperienced, but… yeah. Girls (even young ones) have a built-in, natural ability to present tests that allow proper men to step up, or give less-effective men a chance to hang themselves.
I knew she liked me. She had given me some really direct statements showing interest (“I am totally into you”). We’d had some good dates. Why test me like this? I assumed she was just fucking around.
But I didn’t like it. It was “bad Game” on her part. Her test was noise that was keeping me from asking her out – which was my goal that morning.
As it was an interesting test, I wanted to see what other guys would say.
SOME RESPONSES TO HER SHIT TEST:
“ME: What are you doing today?
HER: I am going on a date…
QUESTION: What do you like as a comeback to that?”
I showed her test to some guys and asked them what they thought.
My initial reaction wasn’t playful or confident. I was irritated – which is not attractive, but a lot of guys might react like that.
“Def stay silent and ping her later.”
— GayKhalDrago
GayKhalDrago doesn’t like this kind of thing either.
“Silence is the magic trick.”
— Dark Horse
Right, let her sit.
Silence can be powerful. And it can be a bad idea to “reward her” with attention when she is causing trouble.
In my case, I don’t like being “intentionally passive.” It is part of my core philosophy of Game that masculine value is about “what he does:” It’s about action, not “waiting” or passivity, or being reactive to the girl. I had a plan and I wanted to move us forward. Are my plans as a man being influenced by the whims of some goofy teenage girl?
Is that my only choice?
“Honestly bro; my best answer would be to do the ‘thumbs up’ to her response and leave it there. Make her fumble the football now.”
— Antifragile
I get it. But then…
She “fumbles,” and I punish her by rolling off, and that stalls out the affair… it’s “all struggle, no snuggle” and nobody gets laid. I don’t really like that either.
And “going silent” (particularly suddenly) risks looking butthurt and crushed by the test.
“How to FAIL a shit test: Let her see you stumble, struggle to respond, go uncomfortably silent, get noticeably embarrassed or upset, or try to defend yourself.”
— Bobby Rio
“Struggle to respond, go uncomfortably silent.” Bobby’s right. Part of the purpose of shit tests is to see if you’ll flinch. Going silent could look like “I get hurt easily.”
Other guys had light-hearted responses that could work in a situation like this.
“In this situation… I respond with a variation of ‘lol ok’ or a 👍. Not saying anything makes it feel like she got under my skin. Dismissive fits my style better.”
—Jack North
I like that. The vibe is “at ease” and unbothered.
“Always have a couple alpha dismissive lines in your pocket:
“ME: What are you doing today?
HER: I am going on a date.
ME: gay”
— FortWorthPlayboy
A dismissive response can be a good solution to a test like this.
And I personally like “gay.” That counters some feminine BS with a Heartiste style, “bro-y” response.
“Two options:
1.) Ignore for a few days then hit her with a ping text.
2.) Try cocky-funny with something like, ‘Very nice, I hope you take your mom someplace nice ;).’
As an older guy I’d do #1, it has more gravitas.”
— Magnum
Both work. And that second response by Magnum is a good illustration of another way to see tests…
“I love shit tests.
I LOVE THEM.
And here’s why you should to:
They are an easy opportunity to display VALUE.”
— Bobby Rio
Bobby is right again. While shit tests can throw a seduction off track, they can also be an opportunity.
“Where a NICE GUY CHUMP sees barriers, the TAKE CHARGE MALE sees open doors.”
— Swingcat
I love this line from Le ‘Swing. Yes.
We could get pissed off… or we could see a shit test as: “She wants to be Gamed.” You take her “chaos” and you use it as an opportunity to show off. That is how a Take Charge Male might handle it.
Here is another great answer that shows some value:
“If you’re still unmarried by Tuesday, come out with me.”
— Runner
I like the feel of that. It’s “jokey,” but it calls her bluff, shows no insecurity, and plows through in a confident way. Bobby would approve.
“A very simple framework to remember that will help you pass almost any shit test is: Agree and amplify.”
— Bobby Rio
Right.
Here is similarly sharp response that passes the test with style:
“Oh cool, are you in love?”
— GTG Education & Consulting
This is my favorite. It’s so short, it feels effortless.
WALK AWAY:
There are dismissive or playful ways to handle a shit test. But some guys felt like the best move was to drop her.
“Shit test or not, that’s dishonest and manipulative. I walked away from the last chick who was dishonest and manipulative. I don’t want those kinds of women in my life. There are way too many options out there to tolerate that kind of disrespect.”
— John Wick
This is a really common expression in the Game community.
Should we walk away when we’re tested? Is it “disrespect?”
I say: If you’re flush with pussy, maybe blowing a girl off for this kind of behavior is valid.
But first, be real with yourself. Do you actually have “too many options?” Or is that impulse all “ego” or a lack of creativity?
I have been a player for a long time. I’ve known 100s of men who were trying to (and often actually were) getting better with women. Almost none of them had “too many options.” 95% of the time, the guy has little-to-no options (even players that have some skill).
This “cut her off” attitude is mostly self-defeating. Both short-term (you lose this specific girl), and long-term, in that you lose the chance to practice, to grow, and maybe pass the test and experience what it feels like to move on to glory.
A willingness to stay in the seduction is the focus of the rest of this post.
“CRITICIZE HER AND QUIT:”
“Not worth the effort.
Too much work.”
— God
For any given reason, guys will tell you to “walk away.”
I understand the impulse, but this “criticize her and quit” is dramatically over-recommended in our scene. Wise men know when to back out of “a bad investment”… but most guys learning Game aren’t actually “wise men” (yet). They love this “criticize her and quit” solution because it appeals to ego (and pride), it’s “safe” (less risk of rejection), and it requires no effort (it’s lazy).
I want to find that “warm, wet, sticky space” between being a high-ego, lazy quitter (a lot of guys) and a low-value, dancing monkey that doesn’t know when to quit (also a lot of guys). I have some love and understanding for men in these situations, but I have enough experience to challenge both ideas.
We can do better.
“One of the mindsets that all player’s share is something I call ‘being comfortable in the grey area.'”
— Bobby Rio
This is excellent. Red hot.
Guys should resist the urge to “criticize and quit.” They should instead “hold the tension” of the moment, and practice displaying some value when tested (by girls or by life in general).
That’s right.
MY RESPONSE: An Example of FRAME and RE-FRAMING
I could have ignored her. I could have come back with something dismissive or used humor to cruise through her test (which is a pretty good solution). I could have dropped her (which is a pretty lazy solution). We have good examples of all those ideas above.
As I didn’t like her test, my first instinct was to “smash” that behavior. I wanted to use the opportunity to teach her what I want, to receive her chaos, punish her a little (chaos sucks), and then add structure to coach her into better behavior. That would allow me to make the test into something constructive.
How could I do all that?
I did this:
HER: I’m going on a date
NASH: Is this how you like to FLIRT WITH ME?
NASH: You can do better than that.
I like it. And it’s a good example that demonstrates what we call “frame control.”
I took her comment about a date and I played it back to her in the frame of “her trying to flirt with me.” It’s not dismissive (not really). It could be humorous, but it’s not super funny. What it really does is work to control the “frame” in which she and I see her test.
Maybe she was thinking: “Watch this, this will make him squirm.” I step past that frame by changing the meaning to: “I see you like to flirt with me… but you’re not very good at it.”
“Frame” is not some juvenile, power-monkey technique where you “win battles” by telling her “no.” That attitude is missing the power of frames to be more constructive and seductive. Frames are about creating a specific meaning in the relationship.
“To understand frame control, we must first have an understanding of frames: A frame is the surrounding meaning of any interaction (your reality).”
— Jon Sinn
I looked up this stuff from Sinn and Bobby Rio after I made my response, but this is almost exactly the effect I wanted to create:
“Reframe the underlying meaning to her chasing you
EX: Are you a player?
PUA: You know you’re not gonna talk your way into my pants like that
PUA: If you want me, you’re gonna have to do some serious courting”
— Jon Sinn
By correcting her and reframing her intent as trying to flirt… I had now taken her bullshit move (that was killing our love bubble) and spun it into me leading her.
I liked it.
STRUCTURE:
I have been using the word “structure” a lot recently when I talk about the potential of Game. It’s a big concept for me right now.
“In the Third Stage, you’re helping manifest the unseen thing that has to happen, that should happen, that is the right thing to happen. You intuitively feel what should happen (like an artist), what the universe wants to do, and then you use structure to create it. That is the masculine way.”
— David Deida
“You need to have the structure of: ‘What is this moment for?’ Whoever is playing the masculine in an intimacy has to define that.”
— David Deida
Gorgeous stuff from Deida.
My initial impulse was to “crush” her for fucking around. Not only to “knock her down,” but when I think of “structure,” the impulse is to lead her toward what she needs to do to have a better experience with me. We have this opportunity with all of the “women and children” in our lives.
This is a big lesson: Proper men provide structure to help the girls and the relationships thrive. This is really what I wanted that morning as she tested me.
So I “reframed her,” and then… I dove into some “role playing” so I could provide some structure:
NASH: Is this how you like to FLIRT WITH ME?
That is me setting the frame that she is a bad flirt. It is a little bit of a “gotcha” – a pretty accurate read of what she was doing.
I went on to “teach her” how to flirt better:
“You can do better than that.
Like this…
You: I wonder if the STRONG MAN is thinking of me???
Me: GRRRRRRRRRR
You: Ohhh, he is a little dangerous…
Me: GRRRRRRRRRR
You: I want to kiss him and touch him!!!
Me: YES, YES, YESThis ^ is better… it will help you get what you want”
I am framing myself as the “strong and dangerous man.” And I am framing her as being very into me. It’s good frame (and it isn’t about “winning” or “power,” can you see it?).
I am trying to building something. And I am specifically teaching her how to think about me. And how to do it in constructive ways.
While this kind of Game isn’t for everyone, I think this is me showing some really solid understanding of how men can lead women and create what they want. Instead of indulging my ego, or protecting myself, I used the moment to set up some structure (once again) via this “Beauty and the Beast” material.
I am “framing” her as the feminine girl seeking the attention of this “big monster,” in a way that should make her feel good. Those are actually the “roles” I want for her and me. And I am coaching her into her part of our affair.
I am literally putting words in her mouth – and words that will help us to seduce each other. Words that would feel good if she felt them. Words that help craft a beautiful image of her and I in healthy masculine/feminine polarity.
I could have done the “criticized and quit” move. But instead, I passed her test, I showed some value, and I used the opportunity to introduce more structure into our relationship.
Yes, I am happy with that response.
I didn’t actually have to “crush her.” I can get her on track so we can be “the happy girl and the dangerous man” together. And then I can praise her – which is how I want to spend my time with her. In praise, and lust, and looking “up.”
That is what I want. I am leading myself (and her) toward what I want.
HOW DID SHE RESPOND?
This is a real case study from a real girl, and she had a response:
HER: Haha
HER: Just kidding
And just like that – shit test, obliterated.
Was she really serious? No. Was she really trying to “manipulate me?” No. She was just a young girl being a brat.
After her “just kidding,” we banged out a few more back-and-forth messages and set up a date.
I didn’t go silent (which would have killed any momentum and leadership I had). I didn’t drop her (which would have killed the whole thing). I led in a masculine way, and…
The following Sunday we met up, she came directly to my place, and…
That little 19 year old girl lost her virginity. Yes, that happened. It was a beautiful night.
CONCLUSION:
You get laid more by what you do, than by what you don’t do.
“Not worth the effort.
Too much work.”
Guys are giving up way too often, and too early… and missing a lot of really great experiences.
Try a little. Put in some effort and often you’ll land on the other side, happy, more sexually satisfied, and will learn a lot more in the process.
(It’s hard to learn anything when you give up before the Game gets past the opening moves.)
“You don’t have to collapse. That is practice: Not to collapse – specifically when she is ‘insulting you,’ her rejection, pushing away, closure, creating combat, etc.”
— Deida
A girl I call Miss Pierced was “one and done” with me after I fast-closed her in December. But I kept going, and she has turned into a regular (she’ll be with me tomorrow night). In Fall 2020, I had to “double text” with Miss Words. She came through, and I had the most meaningful relationship I have had in years (I love that girl). And this Miss 19… I have since fucked her a few times. She has become a wonderful lover. I like her a lot (for a variety of reasons). And it’s “on” with her because I didn’t quit.
Those seductions happened because I wasn’t too proud or too stubborn to show a little effort. I had to “penetrate” the situation… really stick my dick into things to get it done. Sometimes it feels good to stick your dick in there.
Lots to learn here. And it all started when a man walked up to some girl at the mall and said, “Hey…”
Viva daygame.
Your example is about shit tests over text. It is worth pointing out that many of the quotes you reference may be meant to be delivered IN THE MOMENT from night game and all the related materials that came out after “The Game” was released in 2006. The response you quoted me on happened in person while bantering on an instant date. I had approached a girl at the Macy’s in NYC where she was killing time before an online date, she canceled her online date to get coffee with me (Daygame is ALWAYS better than online) and then after an hour, when I was inquiring about a second date, she told me “she had many options” and wasn’t sure if she’d come out again. Not sure if projecting preselection would be considered bad girl game or just immature, but when I said “if you’re still not married by Tuesday, come out with me” (maybe it was Wednesday…), she just LIT up, and it was on, I was her best option and we both knew it. Passing them IN THE MOMENT is serious attraction generating stuff.
Hey Runner.
That is a great point. I am focused on this example, but it’s the energy of “how to respond to shit tests” or even “how to feel about them” that is the same for text or in person.
The right “frame” about how to see shit tests is particularly important face to face… as she’ll either see you flinch (in which case, you’re done) or you’ll “show off” and really rise in value in the moment.
That is right.
That is such an awesome feeling.
When I was doing bar Game with The Professor I once asked this ratty young punk girl “How many tattoos do you have?” And she wanted to blow me off, and said “I don’t know.” But this girl was all about her tattoos, of course she knew. In the moment I snapped back, “Yes you fucking do.” And she burst into a big smile and said “22!” right away. And it was on.
More and more, I’m seeing how formal game was built by guys with little feeling, and the “naturals” who say “be yourself”, were more right. Maybe if they had said “feel yourself.”. Or “feel her”, “then respond”, it’d have made more sense.
Honestly, I’m not sure how anyone had answers for you without first checking with you to give them the energy context of you and the girl. The answer can’t be the same in every situation, I’d think.
Best answer would have come from how you’re feeling about yourself + how you’re feeling about her. Probably more important is “how you’re feeling about yourself”. Cus I think that’s probably where “alpha”/”beta” comes in. Most high value guys would respond to her reply with a high value comment, which wins her over. And guys who don’t feel high value (or guys not in touch with their masculine), will flail and lose the girl somehow.
“Agree, amplify”. “Frame, and reframe”. “Radio silence”. “Neg”, “Go for what you want”.
Why do we think there’s such a list of ways to respond to a shit test, I think it’s probably because any could work. Just depends on the context, and who’s responding.
That being said, one’d imagine that if it’s Nash asking what to respond with, then the context is probably “another girl he’s trying to bang.”.
Still, there’s no straight forward answer at that point, at least not without knowing the information in the first paragraph of the post.
The “stay silent and re-ping later” guys have an idea there. But what happens when one pings again and is met with another shit test right out the gate? Naw, this one almost certainly won’t work in person. This shit test had to be addressed.
I’d probably not have done it as you did, Nash, but you had the most context, and were in the best place to make it work. And it did perfectly.
I’d probably have used some variation of GTG’s or Runner’s reply. GTG addresses the test, but I wonder where he goes from there. Runner (sort of) addresses it but immediately goes for what he wants after. Neat.
I think some guys could answer the question… because they have seen that kind of response from a girl before… felt that kind of “energy.”
But yes, CONTEXT matters. In the original thread, GayKahlDrago also says something about her being “not worth it.” And I responded say it was a good thing for both of us, we had been moving along… so yeah, part of the context was that she was worth some effort.
Hey man.
That is a problem with “structured Game.” Guys need structure, a roadmap helps. But to move through the experience without a sense for what the situation needs… is clumbsy.
“Be yourself’ has been a dead end for most of us. But “feel her” would be very good advice. And “feel what the situation needs” is excellent advice (it is not so her-centric).
I love the Deida quote about “what needs to happen.”
“feel what needs to happen”
I guess that’s what the PUAs class as “calibration”. But calibration’s is such a vague word – maybe because they made it sound like something you had to be mentally alert to, rather than something to feel in your body..
“calibration” imo, is connecting to her energy, and to yours, establishing what those two energies are saying, it seems to be then, in that moment, that you’ll get some idea of what the situation needs.
No pickup artist ever said that. It even feels like once you said to think in energy terms, you cease to become a PUA, and become someone different. The interaction between you and the girl becomes less about words, it becomes more about (hate to uses the word again) energy – then words just become another tool to communicate the energy.
Similar concept. “Calibrated” is what she needs or what is relevant or what “makes sense” for the context. “Being socially calibrated.” Calibration is about “adjustments,” like a watch can be “calibrated” or a tool can be adjusted so it performs better.
Deida is pointing to the GOAL, or the POTENTIAL, and what you’re trying to build.
EX: If you both want to hook up, but you’re waiting for a “good moment,” and everyone is frustrated, you’re not doing your job. The “moment” is calling for you to step up, to make a move so the rel moves forward. That is beyond simple calibration, as I see it. It is a bigger concept.
Like when a group needs to do something, but no one will lead. And the leader (who may be reluctant) rises up and “does what needs to be done.” He provides the STRUCTURE for the other as well, so “what needs to be done” can happen.
It’s creating “what you want,” but when Deida says “the universe” he is saying “what you want, that she wants, that will work out well, etc.” About seeing all that, and creating the momentum so you and she can step into that.
It’s a high level concept, but guys can start to think about it. If you’re only “I want the notch” that isn’t the same as seeing “what needs to happen” at the larger level… what is “best.”
On Deida
I’d let you know that I have read Dieda’s WOTSM twice. The first time, it made absolutely no sense. I couldn’t get to the end of the first chapter. Then I started mindfulness meditation after, and watched the Brian Begin video pinned to your Twitter (in 2020), and got into the idea of tension and energy – that made a bit of sense. It made sense how eye contact and feeling your body helps, but I still was failing to “be with the tension”.
Again, last year, I read WOTSM (audiobook this time) again, and it made more sense. But tbh, It only made says as a concept. I got that it was about feeling energy. But I didn’t get it deeply, in that I didn’t know how I could apply it in daily life.
Then you mentioned John Wineland in your reply to me in your last post, and holy shit, it began to make sense. I saw something I could apply in every moment; anywhere, with anyone.
I haven’t taken any of his programs, but from the talks I watched, Lordy Lordy. I understood what I needed to do more. I needed to live “from the core” more. (and holy fuck, how is it as simple as just connecting to your abdomen and groin more?!). That’s what it means to be genuine.
The idea of the masculine and the feminine all make a bit more sense now (hint for guys reading: it has almost nothing to do with gender)
I am only just starting to incorporate this into my life (and failing often), but it was a seminal moment realizing that none of my fear or anxiety or shame is bad. The feelings I was running from and taking drugs to numb, they’re the precise things that I needed to feel and ‘give structure’ to, in order to live.
I’m probably going to go back to Deida at some point now, and it’ll be interesting to see what I’ll find now.
Anyways, I guess that’s my long-winded way of saying Thank You for sharing your experiences with us, Nash. Your writing has helped shine a torch in my (kind of still clouded) path
Choad… it is interesting for me to watch you (and guys like Brown Daygamer that I wrote about in my last post)… I think you ARE getting what I am trying to teach here.
Yeah. I will mention John Wineland 100X, no one will bother to look him up. But the guys that do… if they are ready (and this isn’t totally “basic” stuff… we are beyond Meathead Game)… huge breakthrough.
I took a class with him, practicing IRL with girls that wanted to practice… it was about masc/fem and “feeling more.” And I loved it. I felt “stronger” after ward. I could handle more “wild” shit from women.
And then, in my next big makeout (Mormon Virgin – I wrote about her on this blog), I was able to connect everything Wineland’s class taught me to making out and connection etc. And it was INSANE. It changed my sense of making out forever. From there, I walked a bit deeper into “tantra” and “yogic sexuality.” My sex life is completely transformed.
And Wineland is Deida’s student… so Wineland was a bridge for me to understand more of that Deida is teaching. Deida is a god. Deida is the most epically “wise” guy I have ever studied. He goes on and on in 1000 different directions…
I am still studying and taking apart what Deida says. Get exp, then come back and see if you can understand more. Just keep coming back to him… once a year. When he starts to click, you’ll know you’re ready for more.
Hey me too… but I add new pieces of understanding every day.
This current focus on STRUCTURE is another huge piece for me… getting better there will help me both get more of what I want and also less drama.
Keep going.
[…] my own fault. Attention is what I need to be more strict on meting out; not texting every day and holding tension, for instance, and not worrying that she’ll disappear if I fail to text on any given day. I […]
Really cool post passing shit tests is so fun for me.
but I have this dilemma while in person I can pass any test with ease while holding the frame and having tons of fun but somehow I always fuck it up in texting I have lost so many girls due to bad text we go from having sex in the first date to her playing hard to get and giving walls and sometimes I just don’t fucking understand it frustrate the shit out of me
for example, this is a recent text exchange I had with girl I picked from daygame we had an instant date and the date was really good a lot of fun tons of kino all in all a very positive interaction
ME: Hey ;)
HER: leviii how are you doing?
ME: crazy girl
ME: I’m doing great I had an amazing day at the beach
ME: Picture of me in the beach
HER: you look good
HER: Lucky you
ME: thank you gemini are always looking good (reference to the date she told me that I’m a gemini and she was showering me with compliments)
ME: one day lets hit the beach and finish it with a naked skinny dip
HER: 🤷🏻‍♀️
HER: No bb I don’t go to the beaches in our city
ME: You were good last night you did put alot of effort put more effort (I didn’t like here response to beach invitation)
HER: Hahaahaha
HER: maybe I’ll give you a special
ME: Good girl
ME: +1
ME: you’re going on the right path
HER: Good morning (next day)
ME: Hello weirdo (reference to the date)
ME: you just woke up (she was late)
HER: just a little (referencing the weirdo tease)
HER: yes I just woke up I don’t know what’s going on with me
ME: the stress of the exams (she told me she just finished passing her union exams)
ME: When are you free let’s meet and do something fun
HER: I don’t want to remember I don’t know what exams I’m going to pass and what i’m going to fail (she ignores the call to action)
ME: should I translate (referencing the call to action)
HER: hahahahahah
HER: I just need to finish some stuff and ill be free to hangout
ME: OK sara (her name)
HER: Good boy
ME: stop being naught (I didn’t like her telling me good boy felt like there was a passing of power there IDK)
ME: I imagine your face expression as you say good boy (I was teasing here during the date for having a very expressive face)
HER: I just said it normally
HER: you’re doing who’s going to turn me creasy if you keep doing like this (I suppose she was referencing the ongoing teasing)
ME: no bb I’ll make sane rest a sure
HER: left me on read
and this is basically the story of my life I lost so many girls because of texting we go from having sex on the first date to here ghosting me I just don’t fucking know what to day while texting I think that I know what I’m doing but obviously I have no clue
what do you guys this of this text interaction any pointers will be helpful
Hey man.
I’m not saying you’re getting what you want… but especially when you say “giving walls” (If you mean that in the Yohami sense of “walls”)… sounds like you DO get it. You understand. That is good.
You might need more practice, or more value, or both… but you sound like you’re on the right track.
If she is coming forward, that is a good sign.
This is really unusual. I know she is “mirroring you.” If it’s playful/flirty, great. If it’s retaliation… it won’t help.
You might have a “struggle vibe,” so she is “wrestling with you.” I am just guessing. If so, if you could start the whole thing over, how could you reduce the “wrestling” vibe?
I can say that any attempt to “control” will often create resistance. If you need to “win the frame,” you might actually be “framing her” as the adversary.
This is part of the problem with too much emphasis on “frame” and “winning” – it can create a you vs her, instead of you and her together vibe.
It is not the “FRAME MARKETPLACE.” It is the “SEXUAL MARKETPLACE.” How do we get closer to that?
Her saying, “I just said it normally” is not helpful. And it could be (again, I’m guessing”) her going logical on you. And that could happen if you’re just “gaming too hard.” It could feel like “force,” and she stops having fun.
If it doesn’t feel fun, why not? I am kind of serious (pre sex), but that is basically a true statement.
It is important that we are STRONG. She wants to feel that. Does it have to be in “beating her,” though?
I didn’t particularly like this. Just get her out, add the “skinny dip” later, when you have her face to face. This might be fine, but feels a little too “horny” to me here.
Runner and I were talking about “too many sexual innuendos” in texting… I think it’s “amateur.” No sex at all is not good. But unnecessary sexual comments (before you’ve fucked her a couple times) can be too much. That is my current opinion.
If you’re dating her, and she is starting threads with you… sounds like she likes you.
I have another general theory now that every message works AGAINST YOU. They are necessary, but the act of sending a msg is like “-1.” A good msg could be “+3,” so “-1” gives you “+2.” But if it’s not a good message… you fall away from her with every message (or set of message) you send. That is my current philosophy.
I used to really think the texting is important. It is, but much more of the work is done face to face. Get her out. As few msgs as possible.
If she won’t come… you go meet more girls. Don’t “burn all the magic” with msg after msg. It won’t help. And it will sap your vibe.
Over time, you get much more smooth/powerful… and the msgs are “+2” “+3” every time… and you can do more. But you need a lot of exp and entitlement to get there.
I gave you some comments but you sound pretty good.
Overall… “seduction” (charm/sexuality) is much more powerful than “frame battles.” If you can find a way into that vibe… I recommend it.
Viva Daygame.