A couple of weeks ago, Krauser had a guest post featuring Jimmy Jambone‘s thoughts on “getting out of the game.” On the back of that, I got any email from a guy we’ll call Mr Steadfast. Steadfast had some questions, as well as some comments about his experience as an older guy running daygame. I am a man in my 40s, with a clear passion for pulling YHT off the street (as often as possible), so… of course all this meets my criteria for good conversation.
Let’s start here:
“I was recommended to contact you by Jimmy Jambone here in London. He says you are about the same age as me. It is the age factor I wanted to ask you about, as I sometimes feel it may be too late a start for me at this age.”
Okay. That’s honest. I like starting with honesty. And that’s a vulnerable thing to say. I appreciate that too. Steadfast, let’s you and I have a call sometime, but for now, let’s make this a larger conversation. I think a lot of men can get something out of this… myself included.
I can’t tell how much of Steadfast’s comments here are because he’s relatively new to daygame? Or how much of this attitude is coming from his age?
Let’s get right into the age bit:
“I started only a couple of years ago, trying to focus on day game. However, my progress has not been great, to say the least. I’ve been getting poor reactions from girls lately (perhaps mostly in my head), which make me feel that I am too old and they look at me as if it’s some kind of joke trying to hit on them.”
As we get going here, I want to separate Steadfast’s inquiry into two aspects: 1.) “My progress has not been great,” and 2.) “I am too old.” Those are separate considerations, and we can get bogged down when we don’t discriminate the various aspects of our troubleshooting.
Let’s take these one at a time, break them down and attack each issue separately.
“My progress has not been great.”
Okay. I hear that. I have felt that myself, many times.
Here is a Tweet from a young daygamer… this is a good reference point to begin this discussion:
Back from holiday… leads I thought were solid flaked / did 2 sessions with no hook point / a wing I met in August told me he got his evenings booked with dates and already got new 2 lays while I was gone. I’m feeling like shit. DG requires solid mental game to keep one going.
— Costello The Kid (@CostelloTheKid) September 8, 2018
Ahhh, I love this ^. Savage honesty.
There is a lot of bullshit and braggadocio in men’s culture. But there is a lot of realness too. Costello here is painfully honest. And that is super helpful for other guys… as we can feel the “normalcy of disappointment” in all this.
I responded that day:
You, Sir… sounds exactly like a daygamer to me.
This is what we sound like when the Daygame Gods are cruel, and are testing us. (I am in the same boat as you… at least for today). And then… The Gods loosen up, and the adventures flow. Cycle. Up/down.
Stay solid, brother.
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) September 8, 2018
I think that’s true. Doubt is a dead-normal feeling for beginners. I have seen a lot of beginners try to get traction in the SMP, and this sentiment is common. We should expect to face this flavor of demon on our path.
Is it your age, Steadfast? Or are you going through the same beginner pains everyone goes through?
Maybe a given guy won’t make it. Maybe he’s hideous (inside or out) and will never find a way to present himself as “attractive.” Maybe he has some deep-seated issues that he won’t overcome… because he won’t work hard enough (won’t approach)… or no matter how hard he works (due to some broken inner game, etc). But to be honest, I’ve never seen it.
My experience is… daygame is one of the most accessible paths to pussy there is… as long as you keep developing yourself and put in the time to approach. Available, to almost every man… but not easy. Doable. But not at all easy.
My wing YoungGuns is 24, and he is a believer in daygame.
He was not an instant success. I’m going to guess >1000 approaches before he got his first lay. And he’s had a few now, solid daygame lays. He has also taken hundreds of leads and has been on dozens of dates with hot, young girls. Yesterday, he rolled up to what the London Guys would call a “stunner.” She was a solid 8, hot Russian girl in platform shoes. I watched him approached… and I was impressed.
But it took him a minute to get to this level.
Young Guns is not middle aged, but older guys could learn a lot by watching his story as a daygamer. Was YoungGun’s progress “great?” I don’t know. The dude is dedicated, and it took him a year on the street to get laid. But yes, it was great… in that he was racking up experience, set after set. He was steadily improving. And now he has proven the model to himself. It works. YoungGun’s impresses the hell out of me.
We have a 20-year age gap between us, but our experiences are remarkably similar. He is my peer.
Was “age” holding him back as he worked toward progress? No. In theory, older guys might envy his youth. But the truth is, his youth was a handicap as much as an aid… girls 25+ would be less likely to take him seriously (and I have watched him approach a lot of them).
(For the record: His first daygame lay was an 18 year old… so I guess we should envy him a bit! Go YoungGuns.)
My point is… this “my progress is not great” is a normal feeling for a daygamer. Don’t personalize it. You’re part of a great club of guys that are working on this… getting our asses kicked… but just as often, we enjoy our work.
My buddy Runner in NYC is 35. He has a great background in game in general (initially night game and online), and has inched along on his path as a daygamer for about a year… then recently, BANG (!!!), he “got it”:
RUNNER: Number closed two Lavian sisters here for a week
RUNNER: “Wall of text” from the model, too
He has his own questions about his age (those kinds of questions are normal), but he actually got a year older before he “got it.” If it was “age,” he should have gotten worse over the year, right? And that didn’t happen. He got better. Much better.
It’s not age. In general, “demographic” filters are a low-fidelity way to see the world. There are a 100 factors to being a good daygamer… almost all of them are more interesting than “age.”
Like YoungGuns, it took me >1000 approaches to get my first daygame lay. I think I was 41 at the time.
This calendar year, I am 44/45… and even if I don’t fuck another girl this year, I will have fucked more girls than I ever have in a 12 month period. I’m old. I’m older than I was when I got my first daygame lay. And I’m also much better at game than I was back then. I’m a better man, overall (and that is no accident).
For me… my age is a proxy for progress. In many ways, I get better every year. Not at skateboarding… I had to give that up. But at almost everything else.
YoungGuns at 24 years, Runner at 35 years, and me at 45 years… all had similar challenges. That is to be expected. It was about our status as beginners, much more than our age.
Steadfast… if you’re a beginner, you likely have a LOT of upside that will come with experience. Upside from working on your OUTER GAME… basic things like style, how you approach, your text game, escalation, etc. And you’ll also improve with the kinds of INNER GAME gains that come as you work on your value as a man… and then, again, more inner game boosts… as you get some success with women to verify your worth as measured by the SMP.
I suspect there are big pockets of improvement waiting for you to discover them, and you’ll conquer that territory. Don’t dismiss this. This is work any man would have to do to get reasonably “good” at game. And you can join those men at the table… if you do the work.
I would call myself a “very experienced” intermediate daygamer… and I am still doing all of the above. I am still working on my game, still studying, still working on my lifestyle, and my body. Some of that has little at all to do with my game, but leveling-up as a man is part of how improve my results as a seducer.
Now let’s move onto that second part, and take on “age” a little more thoroughly.
“I am too old.”
I know how you feel… or at least I used to feel like this. I really do, man. I get it.
When I started out, I was very shy about talking to younger girls. It felt “inappropriate.” I thought it was “more acceptable” to hit on girls maybe mid-30s. And I tried that. And I dated a few. And I liked some of those girls. But there was a lot of limiting belief in my head in those days.
The age thing is much more flexible than I first believed. This year, I have fucked 21 year old girls and 38 year old “girls.” I don’t see a lot of correlation with age (mine or hers) and my successes.
These days, I still get rejected often… but my wins come when I run good game on a good opportunity… and not because the girl and I “match in terms of age.” Compatibility is totally over-rated. Sexual polarity trumps demography compatibility… certainly.
“I’ve been getting poor reactions from girls lately (perhaps mostly in my head), which make me feel that I am too old and they look at me as if it’s some kind of joke trying to hit on them.”
I hear you. And I predict you will dig your way out of that thought, if you keep at it.
Another BIG CLUE of my potential to find success hitting on girls much younger than me… was in the memoirs I read from other daygamers. Krauser, of course, in particular.
By the time I read Adventure Sex (great book), I think I was sold on the potential of the young ones… but earlier exposure to Krauser’s stories of him hitting on “18 year old girls” while he was late 30s… were difficult to relate to. I would flinch as I read them. Not because I didn’t believe Krauser, but because I couldn’t see myself in that situation.
This ^ was almost all “social condition” in me that I needed to let go of.
I remember the day I broke through some of this. It wasn’t conscious. I was out on the street, and a very hot little French girl walked by. I opened her, she stopped (she stood unusually close to me, actually), and she looked me right in the eyes, big smile, crackling sexuality in the air… and the first thing she said was “I’m 18.” And then she stared at me. I was probably 24 years older than her at the time.
And the thing was… her age never crossed my mind. Not when I started to go after her. And Even when she said “18,” I didn’t care. It was about my desire. It was about the chemistry between us. And my ability to use daygame to showcase my value to her. I didn’t even get that girl’s number, but I had scored a huge victory that day for my inner game.
My desire trumped all the “shoulds” about her age or what Bluepill-normal thinks is “appropriate” for men my age.
Steadfast… you know what “they” think men like you and I should be doing with our sexuality? “They” think we should be marrying busted, 36 year old women, that want to squeeze out a kid before their eggs turn to dust. I may do that some day (I may!), but I don’t have to do that now. And I don’t give a fuck what normies think is “appropriate.” It’s about me and the girls. That’s it.
And that doesn’t mean I don’t get rejected. And I that I don’t get rejected based on my age. And that it isn’t specifically my age that is the problem.
Last week I rolled up on a hot, curvy Asian girl with a great ass packed into tight, white jeans. She had a ridiculous look on her face, and I told her so. She stopped. And she gave me a serious look-over. And then said, “how old are you?”
It was about my age.
And I said what I always say, “at least 10 years older than you.” And I said it confidently, because that is how I feel. And she said, “maybe more than that.” So I took a step forward (this was mostly rejection, but we were engaged… she was seriously going over it in her mind), and said, “you don’t usually date men my age?” And she said she didn’t. And I believed her. She was disqualifying me, and she was giving me “age” as the reason.
Age comes up. It matters. Sometimes. But so what.
Dude, men that hit on girls often will MOSTLY NOT have their offers accepted. That is a fact. But this game is played in the yes’s, not in the no’s. We should work on our value, be the best men we can be to maximize our SMV, we should approach, and at that point, we’re on a hunt for yes’s.
I have never fucked a teenager (which at this point surprises me). But I have dated dozens of them…all since my 40s. This time last year, I had a bonified (or “un-bone-ifed”) 18 year old virgin in my bed on the second date. And on the third date, she squirted all over my face as I licked her clit. I never fucked her, but she was as close to being fucked as more “age appropriate girls” I’ve had in similar states of nakedness.
I dated a 19 year old in NYC last Oct, and her mom was 6 years younger than me at the time.
Two years ago in Tokyo, I pulled a 20 year old off the street, and I was making out with her in Starbucks, mid-day, 20 minutes after I met her… while she killed time before she had dinner with her BF.
And the biggest point I would make here is… five years ago, I would have said “I can’t do this… those girls won’t go for it.” And now, I am dead-certain those girls are as gameable as girls much closer to my age. The difference is not about me getting younger… it’s about improvements in my inner game, improvements in my SMV… and about a ton of experience I earned the “old fashioned” way… one approach at a time.
So again… we’re back to sharing the same “growth curve” of younger guys. Our inner game issues hold us back, just like theirs. We have to optimize our “objective value,” work on ourselves, get better physically, financially, and socially, if we want to be able to prove we are “upwardly mobile” men. And our lack of effort and approaches is likely the biggest limiting factor that holds us back.
Here are a couple of stories of other men I can point to:
My buddy Magnum is 42. This guy… is killing it.
MAGNUM: Turns out one of the girls yesterday is a Virgin.
MAGNUM: Had her in my bed but couldn’t get past 2nd base
MAGNUM: My second virgin this month
MAGNUM: But I closed the deal with this feisty cutie. 18 years old.
MANGUM: I fly tomorrow to Singapore to close the other girl I sent you a picture of
These ^ are some comments from Jan/Feb of this year, as we talked about running game in Asia. I assume Magnum has fucked some 6s and 7s (just like every man in game), but the girls from these comments were extremely hot by my standards.
And to be clear… this is game. No money exchanged. No abuse of power. No promises. No bullshit. This is man-to-woman seduction of YHT.
Right now, I am looking at a picture of Magnum and this girl he spent some time with in Hanoi on a recent game trip. This girl… is fucking stunning. I don’t know her age, but I’m going to guess between 20-24. Beautiful black eyes peering out behind heart-shaped sunglasses. Shiny red-pink lips, parted half-open. She is behind him in the shot, draped over his shoulder… and she is a vision. She is not “Instagram trash.” She is clean, sultry, young and delicious.
This ^ is a reward that is available to high SMV men… regardless of age.
Magnum does this over and over. Mostly online, but the medium isn’t his secret. (And he/I have run daygame together). It’s him. He is post-40, and a sexual threat in every way. And the girls know it.
And here’s another note about a daygamer that’s in our age group, Smirking Solidier:
“40-yo world-traveling businessman on a mission to bang 8s and 9s half his age.”
— Smirking Solidier
I like that ^ a lot.
Like all of us, Smirking Soldier has had his ups and downs, but he’s another case study of grown men exploiting potential in our own lives and in the SMP:
“So during the 2 years I was roughly daygame active for 12 months: 6 before I turned 39 and 6 after I turned 40.
During that ‘year’ I made around 850 approaches resulting in 11 purely daygame lays (did not record number of # closes and dates)”
— Smirking Soldier
From ^ his blog. Not bad at all.
Had sex with 20 girls in the last year of my life:
5 loose social/business circle
-2 friends’ dates friends
-2 conferences/business events
-1 friend of a friend of a friend
5 tinder (all in asia)
— Smirking Soldier (@smirkingsoldier) August 19, 2018
Here ^ is an update from a recent Twitter post.
And another update:
Got 20 last year. But a bit burned out from it.
Want more quality going forward, less volume.
— Smirking Soldier (@smirkingsoldier) September 14, 2018
This is a man, in his 40s, that has fucked so many girls recently, he is “post notch” to some degree… and is now working on other ways to tweak his results and optimize life toward what he wants… quality.
Magnum, Smirking Solider and I are all post-40, well beyond what men our age “should expect,” and we’re clacking YHT. And I actually don’t think this is about anecdotes. I’m not saying the “average” guy should expect “above average results.” Of course not. But I will say that age isn’t the deciding factor… not when you’re young, and not when you’re old.
“At my age I think it is all the more difficult to change your personality, to erase the negative thought patterns, to learn new behaviors etc.”
Maybe it is “difficult.” What better choices do you have??
My proof that there is a “type of normal” in what I am pointing to is when I compare me to me.
I was half the man I am now when I was in my mid-30s. Finding game was part of the path of me beginning to approach my potential. Getting into daygame gave me an arena where I could “prove myself” more often, and practice more consistently than I ever had before. All those approaches proved I needed work. And I did the work. And eventually… my path proved that I too could live like this.
The men that make it in this game… regardless of their age (that is not the factor), are the guys that burn for it. The guys that are willing to work for what they want.
If that sounds like a universal truth… it is. Life is a meritocracy. We can’t control our age (not exactly), but effort is something most of us can control.
Work for what you want, Steadfast.
Now for some tough love:
“I see the community full of all these young guys running around all day – I get tired walking around, I can’t keep up with their level of energy.”
Here… my brother, my fellow daygamer, I want to kick you in the ass a bit.
I really appreciate your vulnerability. I do. This is the place to be vulnerable, with your friends, with your wings, with other men. But “I can’t keep up” is a self-imposed death sentence. This is where age matters… but mostly because you think it does.
I want to be clear, we don’t want to really compare our progress to other guys.
For instance… I sometimes compare myself to Roy Walker, and it’s never good for my vibe. That guy… is much, much better than I am. He might be a fundamentally better man in terms of game. That is likely true, as I see it. His game certainly seems better than mine, and his results are radical. Some of this can make me doubt myself.
So I can’t “keep up” with Roy. But that’s only one way to look at it. I am still, very much, one of Roy’s peers.
I have a dumb golf analogy where I talk about “being on the tour.” I am on the “professional level” daygame tour. If there was a way to rank us (an International standings of some kind), I would be on it. Roy would be too, ranked much higher than me. But I am “keeping up” in the sense that I can predictably drive results via daygame, I’ve earned my place in the imaginary rankings of “the tour”… in a similar way to Roy, or Krauser, or Seven, or other men I respect in this community.
But back to you… if you’re saying you can’t handle the walking… you got to solve that. That is the easiest part of this whole thing. You may have a medical reason why you can’t stomp around the streets… so what. Take a seat someplace with high traffic, and “sniper” approach one girl a time. Problem solved. Whatever it is… find a way.
It’s not a matter of some ABSOLUTE level we have to hit or “keep up with.” It’s about what we can do to get better RELATIVE to ourselves. It’s about hitting the potential of right now.
I am in my mid-40s. Never lifted before.
6 weeks ago I got a personal trainer. Lifting 3X per week. Immediate change in my physique.
It's not about "your peak" (mine is long gone). It's about the POTENTIAL of RIGHT NOW. I am getting closer to that potential.
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) August 14, 2018
So… at 45… I have callouses on my hands from lifting iron for the first time in my life. I am also starting to looked a bit “muscled up.” My body is not better than it was when I was 25 (although I might be stronger now than I was then), but it’s definitely better than it was at 35. And much better than it was last year at this time.
What is your potential right now? What are you doing about getting as close to that potential as you can? If you got closer to your potential… do you think you might also getting better with girls??
These are the questions to be asking.
There were parts of it I liked:
“You can be 50 and date a 21 year old 9…”
— Jimmy Jambone
And parts that didn’t:
“The thirst for new skirt and just getting laid in general will wear off. You’ll always look at girls tits on the tube in summer, but sexual adventure in general will just slip down the priorities list. Likely far from your top three, it will likely not even be in the top ten. Of course it’s supposed to because by your 40s you’re supposed to have a family of your own.”
— Jimmy Jambone
This ^… isn’t how I feel at all. I am “supposed to” XYZ??? Fuck “suppose to.”
I have a ton of respect for Jimmy. I do. In part, from sorting through the thoughts he put down on his blog (which is very good). I may be wrong, but I thought he was going to write a book, and I would lay down real money to read it… in an instant. He is a cool guy and he has unusually strong knowledge of game.
But now Jimmy is talking about getting out of the game. Good for him. The post on Krauser’s blog is a well-written piece, and he lays out a solid argument for leaving game… solid for him.
And reading that post gave me a bit of breakthrough, but not in the direction Jimmy was leading:
“My guess about Jimmy’s POV here, is: Jimmy was (is?) ‘Chad.’ Am I wrong? Wasn’t Jimmy both the leader of men and quite tempting for women… when he was in his 20s/etc? He was peak of the hierarchy. Being ‘past his prime’ is real for him, as he peaked like the guy in an 80s movie, gloriously.”
Jimmy is a great example of how many of the “TOP GUYS” in this space can teach us so much, but beyond lessons… many of us have little in common with the POV that Jimmy represents.
“No disrespect to Jimmy… but most of us did not have that experience. Over and over I see guys in game, particularly daygamers… as acting out a second chance at life. That is certainly what I am doing.”
This is so true. Jimmy is 40 now. He was likely very, very good at 35 (and probably still is). For me… I discovered game at 35. It opened my eyes to the potential of the SMP for the first time. I have a lot in common with younger guys (I have winged guys as young as 16), but I think many of us are in this category of “discovering game late.” Could be “late” in our 20s. Or like Krauser and Magnum, in our 30s after a divorce, etc. Or for guys like Midlife Daygamer… in your 40s.
I don’t know Mid-life Daygamer well. But I’m interested in his story.
“The cost of hesitation is the life you could have lived.”
— Midlife Daygame
I like that. Hesitation in that moment when you fail to stop a girl you wanted to approach. But much more so, that hesitation where you think you can’t get started at all.
Even if I never again crack open the thighs of a teenage girl, I think I will fuck many more young-20s girls (I’ve fucked a few already in 2018).
And I have also had an great time with some girls around 30 this year. I bet I can fuck lovely, high quality girls in their early 30s… for another 15 years. Not because they are gagging to get in my pants… but because I have done the work — inner game and outer game — to feel confident to step in and successfully drag those girls to the bedroom.
“And so at times I feel perhaps I am just too old for this shit… Anyway, would be good to get your opinion on this.”
I don’t know where you’re at, Steadfast. But I bet you can do better than you’ve been doing. That
should could be your goal. That’s my goal.
We’re not dead yet, brother.
Steadfast… what are the alternatives to working this out? We don’t have to “keep up” with anybody. But in terms of you vs you? In terms of goals that feel real to you. What do you want? How are you going to get there?
You can likely get married (if you’re not already, or if you haven’t been). And you can try online dating (which I think is particularly challenging given the demographics of guys like you and I… plenty of dates… but rarely the girls we want to date).
Or you can “rebuild” yourself. You can raise your value vs last year. You can clean up your presentation. You can work out. You can start earning your reference experiences, on the approach, on the dates, in the sack. You’ll get better. I did.
I don’t think I’ll ever get laid like Roy Walker or Thomas Crown. But in terms of where I was 10 years ago… I’ve had a goddamn sexual revolution. I think many of us have the chance to do just that.
There is some aspect of the chatter that is repetitive/ridiculous… myself certainly included.
For all those "MIDDLE AGED BLOKES" out talking to girls, mixing it, up causing trouble in the SMP, and even sometimes (ooo!) GETTING LAID…
I salute you!
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) September 15, 2018