Fast Seduction vs The Date Model
I can see two primary and very different strategies for moving toward sex after you’ve picked a girl up. I see FAST SEDUCTION… were you try to fuck her same day or first date. We get that. AND… I also wonder about intentionally implementing a DATE MODEL? Not because you’re AFC, but because you think it works better.
Those are two approaches to moving toward sex that I want to discuss here. And it’ll feature some thinking on this topic from RSD Julien, Smirking Soldier, Lance Mason, Steve Mayeda, Paul Janka, Rivelino, and Krauser.
So…
Which is better? Fast sex or a date model? Of course that depends on who you are and what itch you’re looking to scratch. I can state what “better” means to me… and I will in a minute. And your “better” will likely be different than mine. And different men, with different wants, and different circumstances all call for different styles of game. But this “lens” into bedding girls has been on my mind lately. I want to talk about it.
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Let’s start here:
“What is the best way to get a girl friend? It’s important to understand this…”
— RSD Julien (from RSD’s “Pimp Game”)
Julien is talking “girlfriend” here and I don’t want a GF. Not really. What interests me here is where Julien goes with that comment… and we’ll see that he thinks it applies to more than just taking notches.
We’ll come back to this in a minute.
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Back to me for a minute… what I want is this:
I want to have experiences, lots of them. I want the skills and philosophical guidance to make more of those experiences “good ones.” And I want to give girls good experiences (that is part of the fun for me).
Those are my stated goals in game. It’s not about being a nice guy (fuck “being nice”). It’s about getting what I want… and not hating myself for how I do that. That’s what I want.
I want sex. I want “new sex” (what the FatItalian calls “strange”). I want to meet and seduce new women, regularly. And I very much want to have more iterations of the “model” — from pickup to orgasms. Because I want to really understand it… and because it’s a very entertaining and rewarding exploration for me.
And… I want some “recurring revenue,” where a given girl and I get after each other more than once. Where I get to fuck a girl multiple times over multiple days or weeks. At least “three times,” let’s say… so there is some familiarity to it all. And for truly excellent girls, I want them in my life on an ongoing basis. I want to sample a lot of girls (their minds and their bodies), but I also want to “go deep” with them… work out a sexual rhythm. Allow time and trust to make things even nastier (Miss Thick is my favorite example of all time).
So no, I don’t want a girlfriend. I want all this ^. And this is what “better” means to me. Notches. Yeah. But also some “recurring revenue.”
What is the best way to get all that?
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Here is a CHALLENGE I am looking at as I try to work this out:
In my experience… girls “hit and run” a lot. We do the “r-selected” pickup. We fast seduce. We do, in fact, sometimes fuck these girls. And sometimes they stick around… but very often they are “one and done.” They fuck… and then “ghost” (as the kids say). I’m curious about that.
I know the prevailing myth wisdom is that men “pump and dump.” I am sure that happens a lot, but that is not what I see. I know almost no men that tell me stories like that. And I am talking about guys in the community that I care enough about to be in regular contact with (which is not everyone). Those guys, would often like to see the girl again, post sex. And often, the girls disappear (for a very wide range of reasons). Not always so… but often.
Maybe nothing can be done about that… but… I am curious enough to wonder about it.
Many men that are working through a decent volume of women, would like to see (some of) the girl they fuck more than that once. I think this is more true of men than the culture can appreciate it. It is true of me.
My QUESTION today is this:
If you want to MAXIMIZE SEX.. and everything that comes with it… does FAST SEDUCTION get us there? Is that just “fool’s mate,” as our friend in the Purple Hat would say? Or is a DATE MODEL the way to go for maximum sexual time with women? Can that be done without looking too “K” and chodish?
I don’t think the answer is obvious. And as I have more experience, I have more questions.
Even if you only want one night stands (ONSs), I’m not sure FAST SEDUCTION is the best route to maximize that goal. Fast sex is the best way to have… fast sex. It might be a losing strategy if you want more sex in general, or if fast sex is not required by the circumstance.
Or… maybe it is the best way to get everything we want? I really don’t know. I’m exploring all this.
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Here is more from Julien on that:
“Fuck her as soon as possible. That is the best way to get a girlfriend.”
— RSD Julien
Let’s take “girlfriend” out of this… and just say “recurring sex.”
Here Julian is saying fast sex is the best way to get LTRs. And we can assume Julien would say that ONS and fast sex also go hand in hand. So it sounds to me like Julien thinks that fast sex is the hammer for any sexual nail you put in front of him. And he is advising us to do the same.
And he specifically makes fun of the idea to “take her out on dates.” And I think he is mostly trying to shoot down the Disney style approach to women (which is fair). We know “movie and dinner” isn’t the best path for ONSs or LTRs… it’s the path to beta-orbiter hell. He is right about that, and I’m not trying to present his thoughts out of context.
But… the DATE MODEL idea is central to this post. Not chodish “dates,” as in the AFC sense. But assume we’re talking about relatively experienced seducers, running pretty good dates. If you don’t fuck her right away… if you take her on 2+ dates of some kind… is that going to help or hurt your plan to maximize sex. Will it help or hurt getting your notch and ALSO toward a goal of seeing her again?
“If I see a girl, and I want her to be my girlfriend, I go as fast as I can to… sex. That is the best way.”
— RSD Julien
Okay. That is what Julien thinks (as of the “Pimp Game” product).
There is another quote by Lance Mason (Pickup101) that recommends the same strategy. Lance argues (I am paraphrasing) that you fast-sex a girl you really like, because that “GIVES HER AN EXPERIENCE” most men cannot give her. And that is how she KNOWS you’re the right guy. Fast sex will get you a late night hookup as the bars are closing. And it is ALSO the “romantic” and “legendary” way to start a relationship (if that’s what you want).
Lance Mason is the man. I wish I had his original quote for this piece, but I couldn’t find it. I used Julien’s quote instead… but Julien’s reasoning is less sound, in my evaluation.
Here’s more:
“Once a girl decides to fuck you, what is she basically acknowledging? ‘This guy is naturally attractive. He is sex-worthy. He is the alpha guy. This guy is the shit.'”
— RSD Julien
This is the same rationale “sneaky Tom” used in his textbook that was a red flag to me. It really stood out in my mind as one of the weakest things in his beginner book. And I lost respect for him for including it.
I think Tom said that, because (despite the fact that he DOES have a lot of his own experience to point to), Tom mostly just steals and repeats things other guys have said. I don’t trust Julien on this topic… nor any of the parrots that have this kind of rationale, because my own experience tells me this is not true.
My own experience tells me that girls (very often) do not think like that.
Here is another guy giving us a report from a recent trip of his:
“I have only gotten 1 daygame lay (Korean-student 23yo, D1) who did not see me again.”
— Smirking Soldier
There ^ is very real example from another daygamer. This isn’t only me and I’m not making this up.
There are a million reasons why a girl would fuck you and never see you again. But this “instant transformation” from quick-sex to girlfriend is a community falsehood these guys are repeating. It can happen. We all know examples… but there is no correlation here, as I see it.
“‘I am risking having a kid, and I’m okay with that.’ Biologically, that is what she is feeling. It’s a huge form of investment. And once she does that, making her your girlfriend is a fucking joke…. assuming you’ve structured the interaction correctly.”
“Ultimately, transition sex to girlfriend is easy as shit.”
— RSD Julien
I call bullshit. And Julien puts in that “get out of jail free card” there when he says, “assuming you’ve structured the interaction correctly.” Yes… some guys, that are doing everything at a very advanced level can have BOTH fast sex and predictably get the girls gagging for more. Some guys. But for most guys, and I mean guys with some skill (I’m not talking about beginners here, I’m talking intermediate+), fast sex could very well lead to more girls disappearing on you.
Maybe not as a percentage, but certainly in terms of total numbers. And there is no way I believe that fast sex improves the rate at which you keep girls around. I’m not even sure it the best way to accumulate notches.
I’m not saying fast-sex specifically scares girls away (although that is possible too). What I am saying is fast sex won’t lead to “a connection” or even “long term desire,” in part… because if you’re fucking a lot of girls, and doing it quickly, you’re not screening them that well, and they are not screening you that well… it’s an “adventure” not a “connection.” And our adventures don’t always mix well with our everyday lives. Players, and girls, will do “one and done” under these circumstances. That is one reason among many-many… that fast sex is not a formula for recurring revenue… or even for more ONSs, as I see it.
Stop for a second… and look at your own hookups. For guys with a relatively high laycount… what do you see in your own life? Not anecdotes… but patterns. When you have successfully fucked a girl via fast seduction… was she all over you the next day? How often? How many never talked to you again in any real way?
I rarely have sex that involves alcohol these day (because I have some weird radar where I find girls that don’t drink). Even my fast seductions are mostly sober… so it’s not sobering up that makes them less “super into me” the next day. Girls disappear on me quite often. I fuck a girl quickly… we exchange maybe a text or two after that… and then, I never hear from her again.
You can argue that is just me. And you’re right, some of the time. But again, the “fast sex is the best way to get a GF” is presented as the “truth” by many guys. I do not think I am below average seducer. And I am not “below average” in bed. I think I am better than average in terms of post-sex comfort. And yet…
Girls hit and run. To me it’s totally normal. I’m not pissed off about it, I’m just curious. I bet lots of guys see this. I know many of my wings have had experiences like this.
“What is the backwards rationalization going to do: She is like, ‘oh my god, I fucked this guy this guy so fast.’ What does society say? If you fuck a guy, that means you love him. If you don’t love the person who you fuck, that means you are a slut. And then she’ll rationalize, ‘this guy was awesome.’ ‘And if I fucked him, and I followed my emotions in the moment, that means there that you know what?… there was something special in the air. It was magic. He is the man.'”
“She will backwards rationalize and ultimately fall in love with you, because you fucked her, as soon as possible.”
— RSD Julien
Doesn’t that sound retarded?
I don’t buy it. I don’t really buy this usage of “backwards rationalization” at all. Sometimes, maybe. This theory sounds like “autistic male thinking” to me. Like men that don’t understand women… coming up with clunky explanations for things they claim happen often… which maybe rarely happen at all.
I’m not sure about all this… just kicking it around here. There is a lot going on.
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So now, let’s look at another POV I like better. This guy is using the same approach in terms of FAST SEDUCTION, but is making a totally different point. I like his line of thought much more than what Julien has to say.
Steve “El Topo” Mayeda is a guy I know from the first wave of modern pickup. I’ve heard him talk about game many times. I don’t remember where I heard him first… but he played a major role in The21Convention for a while.
As I have gotten older, I bounce off of some of these guys in my “hippy” life. I am one or two degrees of separation from some of these men, and we end up side by side in the comments on Facebook sometimes. In fact, I ran into an excellent talk by Steve, because I know one of the other speakers in that talk. This isn’t typical “pickup talk,” but it is an excellent conversation. Keith Paolino’s comments in that talk are also fantastic (I have a half written post about them).
But here is the part I liked the best:
Q: What are the keys to being successful on a date and also as a lover with a woman?
This ^ was a question to that panel from an audience member. And here is Steve’s response:
“Get laid as quick as possible.”
— Steve Mayeda
See. There it is again.
RSD Julien thinks it’s about proving to her that you’re the man, via “backwards rationalization.” And Lance Mason thinks it’s about how to create a unique and epic “first impression” as the foundation for an epic relationship. And Steve has his own reasons for advocating fast sex:
“Look, everybody like laughs, it pisses people off… and they may not understand why I’m sayin’…
“But, if you actually start dating somebody, and are on a date, and you think that you guys are honest with each other and haven’t had sex… that is the biggest lie you could ever believe.
“‘In the absence of god, woman is the most spiritual thing,’ or whatever… so, I don’t always think that, but I have THOUGHT that when I am having sex, or having GOOD sex, and THEN I can see the full potential of her.”
— Steve Mayeda
“I can see the full potential of her,” he says. This is red-hot “seducer” stuff for me. Steve is glorious here. Read past the “spiritual” line (if you need to), but Steve is saying something very cool.
This isn’t about some of the bullshit and “birdsong” we do to lure and lay women. This is about our own sense of truly “penetrating” girls. Fucking their physical holes (yes to that), but fucking deeper into them. “Fucking them open to God,” as Deida would say. As Steve says, “I don’t always think that, but I have THOUGHT that when I am having sex, or having GOOD sex, and THEN I can see the full potential of her.”
That is rad.
And that can happen with sex that comes after many dates… I’m sure. But he is talking about a level of intimacy and “honesty” that is missing until you get naked, as you tear away the politeness and artifice, as you “merge” together… even if all that is gone when the lights come back on, it is worth it when we find that space.
I warned you this was a bit hippy. But reach back into you mind right now… think of those times when a “door opened” as you hooked up with a girl. I can feel that. That is real for me.
And back to our goal:
If we want to maximize sex in our lives… would Steve’s suggestion get us closer to that goal? If we aim to “get laid as quick as possible,” quickly dipping into the pool of intimacy that can sometimes be on the other side of sex… would running our seductions with that in mind help us get more notches and/or more overall sexual experiences?
It’s yet another suggestion to fuck ASAP, from a man that has been around the block a time or two.
“And then the other thing, too… when I just start applying that — and not really get into any of this esoteric, awesome, philosophical stuff — and I was like, ‘I just want to get laid, man,’ and then you go, ‘I’m going to do this,’ and I go for it, and I get laid… without any of that beautiful hippy stuff around it… the crazy thing is then she is a lot more honest with me and I’m a lot more honest with her.”
— Steve Mayeda
This is brilliant, rare insight here. I have never heard another man say that. Props to Steve for articulating something ephemeral in those lines. Beautiful.
I have known since I was a teenager, that sex changes “the level of conversation” with a girl. The things I can say/ask BEFORE I have hooked up with a girl, are different than what I can say/ask AFTER I have made-out or fucked.
Like the very minute after sex… we can immediately share at a different level. I have intentionally saved questions for “after the make out” (I did this even when I was AFC). I have a girl in mind right now, and something I want to talk to her about… but I have to wait until I fuck her to say it. I can think of three examples, right now, where that sense of “what ’til we fuck” feels true to me.
There is a breakthrough of truth that is available after there is a breakthrough of fluids and skin. Yeah.
Partly because she physically relaxes. And I relax. But also because then she can be “a little bit” emotionally honest with you. Surrender isn’t always about “conquest.” Sometimes it’s about making her truly available to you. And sometimes… that is completely about your skill as a seducer. Sometimes a little fast sex helps you get there.
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Here is a yet another angle:
“When you’re interacting with a woman you’re never stationary… every decision you make and every minute that elapses when you’re spending time with a woman is either bringing you closer to sex, or father away. If you’re not moving the interaction towards sex, then it’s probably moving away from it… and she’s putting you in a different category.”
— Janka
He is right. Time often works against us… and that could be another argument for fast sex.
For instance, you can KISS A GIRL FOR THE FIRST TIME on the first date. Of course. And on the second, sure. And maybe on the third (for most guys, I bet that’s the most common time). But on the fourth? Maybe not.
Per Janka’s quote, now you’re “in a different category.” And even if she is still willing to date you by the fifth date… if you haven’t kissed her by then, you are likely in the category of guys that will never be able to kiss her. You signaled major “Bottom Guy” status… and cool girls don’t kiss bottom guy.
“If you’re indecisive, what happens is, the girl chooses. And she puts you in a category. If you become a category of guy… you have a very hard time migrating to another category, because you didn’t make a bold move in the beginning, and she put you a category. If you’re not bold, and make a decision, she’s going to choose.”
— Janka
Sometimes… you want to get a girl over the threshold, so it “isn’t a thing.” You move through sex quickly. You get honesty. You get what is “available” after that physical-emotional honesty opens a door between you and her.
There… is another case for fast sex. “Beat the buzzer” thinking, as it applies to seduction.
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If you’re working on your game, you’ll go through many stages of skills and understanding of yourself, the girls, and the marketplace. And your tactics and goals might change as you grow… your mindset is not stationary.
Rivelino used this phrase on his blog recently:
“Beta with courage”
— Rivelino
I like that.
So maybe we start out as betas, many of us do. And we learn game, and we become “betas with courage.” That means, we start to “go for it.” We’re not alpha/sigma yet, but at least we are taking responsibility for our own lives.
I think beginners confuse “going for it” with being “alpha.” I know I did. This is about over-escalating in an uncalibrated way. This is what I was looking at in my post about the girl I fucked last month in Tokyo… was I escalating like Top Guy? Or like a “paper alpha?”
And this is what the Janka/LMR piece was all about… a lot of that was about not having enough experience to know how “hard to push,” or that “pushing” isn’t at all what Top Guy is doing when he escalates.
As we take our first steps as men of game, we often won’t make moves on girls at all. Common problem for new guys (even if they are grown men when they find game). We won’t ask girls out. And we won’t escalate once we do.
As we get the courage to move ourselves forward, maybe we jump into the AFC “boyfriend model,” we run the DATE MODEL, because we think it’s required, because we know no other way.
We’re not quite redpilled, at least not in practice, so we become “faster, more prolific AFCs.” Same misunderstandings of the SMP, but we do more of it… with more girls. And that’s progress at some level… it is better than our former, inactive days.
Then we become “betas with courage,” as Riv might say. And fling masculinity against the wall, and call that “being a man.” We are children, playing at being men. But it’s also progress, of a sort.
I have been that child. I still am, at some level.
I don’t think it’s “childish” to run fast sex. That’s not my point. But thinking “fast-sex = “being a man”… isn’t being a man. That’s a childish point of view.
I am trying to grow out of that stage of “sexual childishness.” That’s why I am looking at this the way I am. I want to be more sophisticated. So I am exploring this snake, poking it with a stick, to try to understand it better.
As recovering AFCs learn game, maybe they over use fast-sex. Maybe they avoid the date model, because they think that is for chumps. And maybe we have over-corrected there? I don’t think I have been an “AFC” in a long time… but I am looking at my mindsets and what I may have misinterpreted as I have tried to learn game.
Maybe there is some utility in the date model after all? Not the way I used to do it… in a compulsive, retarded RomCom kind of way. But what if proper seducers could intentionally embrace dating as a means to tearing up more skirt? What if that was the better method, once you know what you were doing?
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Here’s another POV.
“I had a student say to me…”
“[Student talking] ‘I’m on a Eurojaunt, I need your advice…'”
“Describe the set.”
“[Student talking] “It was 3 PM in the afternoon. I spoke to this [girl]. Bounced her to a cafe. Bounced her home. Got my dick out. Tried to fuck her after an hour. She left. Now she doesn’t return my call. Where am I going wrong?”
“You might have moved a bit too fast there. Middle of the afternoon. No alcohol. Getting your dick out within an hour of some girl just on her way home.”
— Krauser, from the Street Attraction interview
As he says that ^ last line… he has a great smile on his face. Like a lion watching his cub flail around as he learns how to hunt.
But here we have Krauser offering us a path back to the utility of the DATE MODEL. He is pointing out some of the foolishness in trying to close too soon.
And I see myself in that student. Trying to be “like Krauser.” Thinking fast-sex is the thing to do. My willingness to “burn it down” (as Sundance might say) as I try to fuck the girl ASAP.
And I think that is a normal, but a “caveman” interpretation of a larger “truth.” For beginners, and even intermediate guys like me… “we don’t know what we don’t know.” And we hear stories and we try to be “that thing.” And we lack subtlety… like most beginners do.
“There are some girls you can fuck that quick. But those are the highlights. That’s not the normal amount of game.”
— Krauser
Wow. I actually feel relief when I hear a man like Krauser say this. That it is not always “low skill” to not fuck on the first day I meet a girl (or on the first date). That it might actually be foolish to aim toward that when that goal is out of context.
And as we can see… there are plenty of voices that say we SHOULD be fucking girls the first time we get them out. And I’m not afraid to do that. I want to do that, much of the time. But is that the best way to maximize the sex in my life??
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I’ll jump in with a personal story from today…
I was on the street. I haven’t been laid in three weeks, even though I have dated several girls, and had three in my apartment (not including the girl I did fuck). I’ve been hitting daygame extremely hard. I’ve talked to over 150 girls in the last week. I talked to 37 girls today. I am taking four to nine leads per day this week. I have had many, many dates in the last few days (idate and regular dates)… and yet… no pussy.
Daygame Gods… cruel, cruel heartless bastards sometimes.
For now, assume that I am “very warmed up” and that I am “pushing myself” forward into what is possible for me. I am a horny and dangerous daygamer. And I’m actually having a ton of fun with the girls right now… really excited to be going out every day. I cannot wait for tomorrow.
So today… IOI from a conservative girl. I stop her. She is surprised and uncertain. We chat briefly. I get her to relax and take the stop. I move closer. I give her the eyes. I ask why she is in the neighborhood… what she is doing now? She says she is looking for a cafe. I offer to take her to one… she is a little shocked at how fast I am moving, but she agrees.
Instant date. We sat. We talked. We drank milky tea.
And… I started to give her sexual SOIs… saying that she is very feminine. And that I liked her lips. I held her hand. She was very compliant, even as I introduced sex. And I told her I want to kiss her.
Since I don’t want to burn a whole prime hour of daygame time on an idate-to-nowhere, I push it forward. I mention dinner… neither of us are that hungry… so…
I offer to take her to my place. For tea, I say. I tell her I’ll kiss her, of course. And then… later… I’ll take her for dinner.
That was my offer. This was all totally smooth and natural for me. Felt great. This was fast seduction. You may see a million mistakes in that… but I was confident and congruent. And she had a great experience.
And she fucking really considered it.
It was on in that moment. And my cock was at half-chub… which rarely happens to me unless I’m in the process of making out and having sex. And I could see the “hamster” in her mind spinning… she is a conservative girl… she doesn’t do this… but she was thinking about it… It was glorious.
But she said “no.” She said, “I can’t…” She was in a little bit of pain at that moment. I enjoyed the whole thing.
I took her LINE contact, and told her I would let her go… but that I would make that offer again (via the messaging app) after I left. That would give her time and space to think about it. She could have a few minutes to herself, and accept then… if she was into it.
I made the offer again via LINE, and she didn’t take it then either. She thanked me for a wonderful time.
So you can see (that as of today), I haven’t abandoned fast sex as a strategy. That is the third time this week I have tried that. It’s fun to try. I am learning and getting comfortable in that area. I am not morally opposed to fast sex… not at all.
I can do this stuff… or at least prove I can stomp on the gas pedal.
But would intentionally re-orienting toward the date model be a better route to more sex? Maybe I could have fucked this girl on the next date? And maybe now… she’ll never see me again, as I was such a cad about it on the idate?
Hmmmm.
Back to Krauser…
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“Clearly she must have liked him, or she wouldn’t have come back to his place after an hour.”
“That girl might have taken four dates to fuck. Maybe getting his dick out should have waited until the third date, y’ know.”
“But because he had it in his mind: ‘I’m gonna get a same day lay, I’m gonna do the model, fast escalation is best escalation, it’s a better set if I fuck her in one hour than two hours…'”
— Krauser
This is a great story. And Krauser tells it in an awesome way. I have been exactly like that guy in that story. I didn’t get my dick out in the cafe today… but I was fucking going for it. And perhaps, in a way that is self-defeating.
I am beginning to wonder… how many girls have I lost because I was trying to run fast-sex as “the only option.” That I thought it was the “powerful” thing to do. Or that it was “the experience girls want.”
Not always so.
“It misses the point that you’re trying to seduce the women. And sometimes the women give you the timetable. You can’t impose your timetable on them.”
— Krauser
Yes.
He’s right. Krauser is not a pussy. He is not afraid to fuck girls fast. But it is not always in the cards… even when she likes you. Maybe she needs a date or two?
Sometime… hesitating means you show you are Bottom Guy. And sometimes, logistics are such, you have to get it done… as the window of her physical availability is brief (if she is tourist, for example).
And other times… you just blow yourself out by being an uncalibrated horny guy… a slave to “the model” of fast sex.
And you might get less sex overall… by going for fast sex too often.
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Krauser tells a story in Adventure Sex where he dates a girl like six times.. and never fucks her. He liked her. He tried to fuck her, but it wasn’t happening. To quote him from above:
“You can’t impose your timetable on them.”
— Krauser
This is where I am particularly focused right now. I think I have been imposing my timetable on these girls. I think I have been a blind slave to the model. And I think some of that is “pushing against resistance.” I want to stop doing that.
With the girl on the idate… I didn’t push against resistance at all. I just got the car up on two wheels. She knew it was exciting. But I never made her hit the brake. She didn’t agree to “go faster,”… but I didn’t make her need to get out of the car, either.
She is texting me. Maybe I’ll get her out again.
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One more time, I come back to this quote:
"What I'm saying is, you can press, but she can pace it. She can say, 'yes, I'm interested, but not right now.' Often beautiful girls are very good at pacing. They'll pace you. They'll let you push, but they'll say 'I need more time, I need more time.'"
— Janka— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) January 7, 2018
Here ^ I am quoting Paul Janka again.
I like it. And I want to add a big dose of Yohami’s “don’t push against resistance” to Janka’s framework. I think we “push it,” meaning we move fast. But not so fast that she has to use the brake.
I like the idea that we “move things forward,” and we do that pretty quickly. That doesn’t mean we need to fuck her on the first date… but it does mean we basically try to do exactly that. So that is still the plan.
I think that Julien is probably insanely good with girls at many levels… but he has the worst advice in this review. And the other guys that repeat that “boy logic” are giving you a dumbass interpretation of what is going on here. “Backwards rationalization” and “fast sex makes her want to be your girlfriend” is keyboard jocky shit… they’ve got the cart before the horse.
But Lance is right that fast sex gives her a rare experience. It shows that you, as the player, are an experienced man. It gives her a type of thrill that an overly-careful man cannot offer. If you do it well and with some style, she knows she’s with a man of the world. Top Guy doesn’t have to fuck her on the first date, but he probably shows her he can.
And Steve is right that fast sex can open doors for us. If fast sex is in the cards, in many ways it “can” help you find some planes of honesty quickly… and that honesty can then spin the relationship up into something magical, that might not happen otherwise.
And Janka is right that fast sex keeps you in the category of “sex-worthy,” and maybe more importantly keeps you OUT of the “Bottom Guy” category.
We’ll let Janka takes us home with another great quote.
“Relationships can often come if the girl resists for three or four dates.”
— Janka
Here he is saying almost the opposite of what Julien is saying. And I think he is right. I think it makes sense that LTRs (and recurring sex) come more often when the girl paces us for 2+ dates. That makes sense to me.
We know Paul would “push” things forward. And he says above that she will “pace us.” And here he seems to be admiring the girls for pacing us. Even if I would prefer to fuck her on the first date (and I know Janka would), I think Paul is right on here.
“The reason why women do that, is that women with high self-esteem, they want to showcase their personality. They want to say, ‘Here, listen, don’t just go for the hole. I have a whole life I want to show you, I’m a great person.’ Because the guy gets very distracted. So they stop it, stop it, and they get to showcase themselves, over three nights, for example, until the guy says ‘Wow, this is a quality person I want to spend time with.’ And then they’ll give sex up, once they’ve shown you who they are. A lot of girls that give it up quickly, they don’t have a chance to show you how great they are. And after a guy has sex… he thinks, ‘Ahh, I’m not that interested.'”
— Janka
This is great. That is a great analysis. This kind of stuff is how I know Janka is much more than just some dude running “good looking guy game.” He is so smart and articulate in lines like this… there is so much to talk about there… but this post is long enough.
…………………………..
Evangelist daygame at it's finest! Do you have a certain date model, Nash? (aka 2 date model/ 3 date model etc)
— hunter ?? (@MATURE5MAN) February 9, 2018
Here Hunter is asking me about my date model? Well… I don’t have a set “generic” plan. I have a plan for each date, but not a “one size fits all” plan that I apply to every girl.
I want to “give her more of what she wants, and less of what she doesn’t want.” And if you’re following the theme of this post… I see a lot of utility in “fuck her as fast as you can”… and yet… I can see how I have pushed it too far. I know I have lost some girls for going too fast.
And that was likely actually decided, NOT in my “pre game” plan… but in the micro-moments when I was too focused on my plan (or my stats), and not focused enough about where she was in terms of her level of arousal.
UHHHHH!!! Even as I sit here now and write this… I am thinking… even if she is very aroused… and you COULD fuck her… even if she has not chosen to “pace you” toward another date before sex… there might still be some reason to make her wait for another day. I am sure that is true sometimes.
But I think my answer is… I should pace myself to her arousal… I should focus on her arousal… not on fucking her or not… and when she is aroused enough to be fucked… give that sweet girl a proper fucking. If that happens on one date… great.
And if I CAN’T get her to that level of arousal on one date… because she needs more comfort… more time… because she wants the chance to “showcase her personality”… then we wait for another date.
That is real. It takes tremendous calibration and experience to read all that… to get the timing right… but I think that is the answer.
…………………………..
We are men. That means we drive the car.
And we’re not ordinary men… we are extraordinary. And sometimes we drive really fucking fast. And we are comfortable at that speed.
But we’re calibrated and attuned, as well. And that means, “we drive the car in such a way she never has to use the brake” (© Yohami).
That doesn’t mean she never “holds on for dear life.” It’s exciting to be on a ride with us. And she might say, “Slow down! Slow down!”… but if we’re doing it right, she is usually laughing when she says that. These are soft “no’s.” That’s normal. And she is loving it. She is not trying to hit the brakes. She is not trying to get out of the car.
And she may make us take her home… instead of back to our place. She may do that… three or four times.
We may get frustrated. Maybe take a different girl, as that one isn’t adventurous enough. That’s fair… this is about us, about what we want. Depending on what you want, and how “quality” she feels to you… she might be a “time waster.” Time wasters are real. I agree with that too. Moving on from a girl that is stuck in the slow lane… that might be best for everyone.
Or maybe you love it. Maybe you love watching how much she can take. And watching the pink rise in her cheeks when we give her a thrill. Watching her edge up on what is “too much,” without taking her over that line into a bad experience.
And sometimes… we get to take her straight home. She’s sold. She is ready for the final act. And we rip into each other’s naked honesty and fuck and and see God and then have ice cream on the couch afterwards. And it’s magical. And 20 years later she tell the kids, “yeah, your dad used to take me for rides in this car.” And she winks at you while she says it.
And sometimes… we take her on a few rides first. We allow her a timetable that is best for her… and keeps her from needing to get away from us… that keeps her “safe enough” that she’s willing to get back in the car each time.
And over those rides… we get to know her. And some of her deeper qualities come out. As do ours. And that becomes a different, but legitimate path to something hot and meaningful.
…………………………..
For my part… the juice for me right now is in the calibration. I want to watch her as I increase the sexual heat in the air between us… and see how she takes it. I’m going to need a lot more experience before I am an expert. Which is cool… I love the practice of this art.
And… I happen to know a pretty cool way to meet lots of girls.
Viva daygame.
This is a precious post in my opinion. All beauty is divine. I want to experience this Eros quality.
I disagree with Janka, because ‘we’ do care about our girls once we fucked them. Post sex relations are always closer to truth in every regard. Getting to know her soul and life is only possible at this point in my experience. If you don’t care, you never will.
To maximize my deep sex and notches I go with the SNL/SDL intention first and calibrate down to a 2-3 date model, maybe 4 dates with virgins. First date around 1 hour and second date sexual intent.
This post is precious because you outlined the map well and came to the correct conclusion that callibration really is key to decide how to make the best of every single situation in terms of deep sex.
Some girls despise cowardice, others need honest comfort to open up. But I, too, love to be a man and love to penetrate her body, soul and character alike and aim for just that!
-IJ
IJ… thanks, man. I told you I have been thinking about this “date stuff.”
>> I disagree with Janka, because ‘we’ do care about our girls once we fucked them.
Hey.,. give Janka a chance. He is a poon hound… but he also goes deep with girls He has had a lot of GFs… but only high quality girls.
So he will fuck girls just to fuck them… for sure… but he also knows what quality/depth mean. He is an amazing man. You can’t shove him in a category easily… he is a fascinating guy. Very deep.
>> To maximize my deep sex and notches I go with the SNL/SDL intention first and calibrate down to a 2-3 date model, maybe 4 dates with virgins. First date around 1 hour and second date sexual intent.
Cool.
Your first date is very much like Lance Mason. He was 1 hour, coffee, often get the girl back to his place… a kiss… and then send her off. I think this was his “6 PM date,” and he would then have an 8 PM date that was already primed for sex.
>> Some girls despise cowardice, others need honest comfort to open up. But I, too, love to be a man and love to penetrate her body, soul and character alike and aim for just that!
I like barebones seduction… just seeing how far I can take a girl… and I like the sex/pleasure part of the hunt, even without depth. I don’t have to like the girl. Not to “eat her.” And I am cool with that part of the game.
But yea… for girls I actually get into… it’s the depth. And so far… the “emotional depth” is always required for really good sex. For like… really, really good sex. With Miss Thick and I… the more wehold eye contact, the more we fuck while looking into each other’s eyes, the more I stroke her face while I fuck her… the more amazing it is. We are very dirty, but mixed with a LOT of emotion and care. Best sex of my life.
ONE COMMENT/TIP: I go back and forth between pinning her down… and holding her hand. Like I will pin her arms down behind her head and fuck her… and then… switch so we’re holding hands (in that same position) while I fuck her. That combo… is hot for me… it’s a mix of tender and violent… and it’s great for working us up into the emotion of it. If gives her dominance one minute, and connection the next.
A few pointers
* * *
Having sex on the first date vs the third date, is this about you, or her?
* * *
Since you’re doing day game with cold pickup, you already set up the frame that this is about fast, hard sex. And she said yes, hence she’s on the date. Wearing lingerie.
You preselected all the girls by telling them “let’s have a quickie” and there she is.
* * *
As a general rule girls don’t develop emotions until they have been having sex with you for a while. It takes 3-4 times before they start bonding, if they do so at all.
* * *
Girls only care about themselves and how they feel. Once they bond, they add you to their internal rooster of characters and they feed you love like young girls do with their dolls, but you’re ‘inside’ of them as a representation, so that’s still about ‘them’.
All this to say that at the beginning you’re nothing but a tool for their self gratification. They are there with you because they want to feel something.
If they hit and run, they didn’t like what they felt. They don’t want ‘more of that’, whatever it was.
* * *
Having recurring lovers has nothing to do with taking it fast or slow.
She wont become ‘more invested’ by taking it slow. Specially not when you did cold approach and flaunted your dick in front of her: she’ll screen hard to evaluate if the real deal is there, but at least she said yes, so she’s a ‘yes girl’ now, all you have to do is stay on track. Switching to a longer, asexual courtship dissolves whatever momentum you had.
* * *
The time it takes you to have sex with a girl is not measured in dates but in arousal and momentum. So all things being equal, go for sex immediately.
Just don’t go as “hey here’s my dick let me know if it bothers you” but “I’ll rub your arousal spots so well I’ll make you mad”
* * *
Give girls what they like and they all return for more.
* * *
As a personal reference – all the girls who wanted recurring relationships saw me like the big deal. I banged half them on the first date, the rest on the second date. One took two years (long story, basically I was busy with other girls). Some girls already wanted recurring business before the first date. Some girls started nesting right even before the sex happened.
So this isn’t measured in time, and certainly not in ‘dates’, and time spent doesn’t make her more invested in you the longer you take to bang her. This isn’t about getting to know you, this is about stimuli for her own vagina.
* * *
And, girls despise bottom guy, and bottom guy is ‘worker’, so if you ‘work to get them’ you’re out.
And, girls love top guy, and top guy is ‘easy and magical’, so when everything flows you’re in.
Not about dates. Cheers man.
Great collection of thoughts here.
Really like the comment, “Girls only care about themselves and how they feel. Once they bond, they add you to their internal rooster of characters and they feed you love like young girls do with their dolls, but you’re ‘inside’ of them as a representation, so that’s still about ‘them’.”
This is spot on. It’s why game is at its essence a head game.
“my “inner game” isn’t holding me back any more.”
Glad to hear!
“Don’t agree.”
That’s holding you back then. I’ve been saying it for a while here – your ping was exclusively sexual, and she said yes to that. The important thing to look at is that she said yes.
“you certainly aren’t showing “slow, date guy” vibe. But that does NOT mean daygame = fast sex.”
Try to articulate what is the difference in a girl who says yes to a guy who is not a ‘slow, date guy’, and a girl who says yes to ‘fast sex’?
Basically you’re signalling you’re a lover not a provider. She said yes. So sex is on the table even when a relationship is not on the table. Put it together.
Is that fast sex or slow sex?
” Not ‘the same date’ I keep finding virgins… they are not all ready for fast sex. That is a fact.”
This is not about fast or slow measured in ‘time’, it’s arousal and momentum. You set the momentum high with the type of approach, boldness etc. And she said yes, so she wants ‘more of that’, aka, more momentum and more boldness. So ‘give her more of what she said yes to’.
And ‘virgins’ give me a break :-)
“Xsplat”
I believe he’s a white guy in Thailand, aka, you gotta consider he’s running Bieber game with castle and all. There are more stuff in his setup than his personal recollections and his personal style. But maybe he’s not, let’s ask.
“And… there are other bars. This is true. So next time she wants that… she doesn’t need to even my name… bars AND hangovers, are easy to find for girls.”
Yes – that’s the result of abundance. She got an experience, it got ranked among her other experiences, and she doesn’t want more of this one.
Put yourself on your own shoes when you have a vivid tornado going. Let’s say you go out on 10 dates and bang 8 girls. What can be your reasons to not ping back some of the girls?
Basically you can get better somewhere else.
AKA ‘she doesn’t want more of that’
“Yeah… and those are dangerous girls… as they are not in reality at all. ”
That’s all of them man. It’s crazy.
“the Chinese Fashion girl in NYC did with me. She was aroused. She wanted to fuck. But she wanted the MEANING OF IT to be right for her”
That’s cool. So it’s not about ‘fast’ – it’s that she wanted ‘meaning’. If you can give her the meaning, then she’ll do sex. As always, it’s about what they want.
But – in many cases when they want meaning that can be pushed aside, in other cases it’s beautiful to give them meaning. Lance had a phrase about it “whatever we do, it’s meant to be” and bam, there’s your meaning.
Cheers man.
>> Having sex on the first date vs the third date, is this about you, or her?
At this point… 90% of the time… it’s ONLY if she needs it. I am pretty “entitled,” and usually horny, so I am ready to fuck first date. Almost always. My game isn’t always ready… but my cock is… and my “inner game” isn’t holding me back any more.
Back when I was with Firecracker… some of the “waiting” was for me. My inner game wasn’t as strong. Not anymore. I am more sexually confident now… and hungrier because of it.
>> Since you’re doing day game with cold pickup, you already set up the frame that this is about fast, hard sex. And she said yes, hence she’s on the date. Wearing lingerie.
>> You preselected all the girls by telling them “let’s have a quickie” and there she is
Don’t agree.
Daygame shows boldness. And if you run sexual boldness, you certainly aren’t showing “slow, date guy” vibe. But that does NOT mean daygame = fast sex.
Daygame is a portal… through which many things can come. It’s high volume. The way I run it, it’s direct. But daygame does not mean “fast sex.” At least not “same day” or first date. I keep finding virgins… they are not all ready for fast sex. That is a fact.
I am going to talk about an OLD RULE in a comment below…
>> As a general rule girls don’t develop emotions until they have been having sex with you for a while. It takes 3-4 times before they start bonding, if they do so at all.
This… makes very good sense to me.
Miss Thick really took her time. And then, once I got her to sleep over, took many nights to “sleep close.” She is a totally different girl now.
She/I fucked on the 4th date… escalating each time. But she ran off after our first sex. And again after the 2nd/3rd times. And then on the 4th, slept over… sleeping at the edge of the bed, and away from me… slowly bonding with me each night.
We are “airtight” now. It took a while. And it is much better now.
Xsplat… BTW… has a very different experience than most of us. He is all in very quick, and claims the girls are too.
>> Girls only care about themselves and how they feel
>>but you’re ‘inside’ of them as a representation, so that’s still about ‘them’.
Wow… great way to see this. Perfect. I love that.
>> If they hit and run, they didn’t like what they felt. They don’t want ‘more of that’, whatever it was.
Disagree. You must be wrong here.. at least some of the time.
I like to be hungover sometimes. I do. I know that that last drink will be too much, but that “too much” is what I want. I know I’ll feel like shit the next day… so what. Sometimes that is what I want.
So a girl wants “that experience.” And she doesn’t want it everyday. So she “walks into your bar,” for the first time, drinks too much, gets that feel… and she’s gone. She got what she wanted… she just doesn’t want that every day…
And… there are other bars. This is true. So next time she wants that… she doesn’t need to even my name… bars AND hangovers, are easy to find for girls.
>> Having recurring lovers has nothing to do with taking it fast or slow.
>> Switching to a longer, asexual courtship dissolves whatever momentum you had.
I agree. This is the conclusion I came to while writing the post. I stay on fast sex… and let her pace me, if she needs to.
>>She wont become ‘more invested’ by taking it slow
I agree… but that was never my point. I am talking about not scaring her off. And your arousal thing is a much better way to keep that in mind.
I think she MAY GET MORE INVESTED… but not BECAUSE I took it slow.
I think the Janka quote is correct… at least some of the time. She makes both you/she wait (even if she is very aroused)… so you can see more of her… so you can bond a bit more…and then the MEANING of the sex is different… and the VIBE of the sex is different. So it might be “better.”
I think that is true.
This is what the Chinese Fashion girl in NYC did with me. She was aroused. She wanted to fuck. But she wanted the MEANING OF IT to be right for her… and fast sex would have made her feel bad about herself. So she managed that, by not fucking me. I think she was smart to do so.
I don’t think it’s bottom guy to see that a lot of the best relationships had “2-3 date wait” to them. And that’s not Disney, or morals… but I’ve seen it too many times. Real players like Lance talk about this… and “high quality” girls making him wait 2-3 dates, and how it made a difference to how he felt about her. Players see this all the time.
We go fast sex… and smart girls pace… for 2-4 dates. Even if they want the dick… that is smart of them. It’s smart for the LTR (if that is to be). And it’s smart of us to go fast sex… for completely different reasons.
>> The time it takes you to have sex with a girl is not measured in dates but in arousal and momentum. So all things being equal, go for sex immediately.
Great way to say it. Yes.
>> Some girls already wanted recurring business before the first date. Some girls started nesting right even before the sex happened.
Yeah… and those are dangerous girls… as they are not in reality at all. They are in their own dream. They love the taste before they have tasted it. Those girls are ones to watch especially close, as it is REALLY NOT ABOUT YOU (even more than normal)… she likes some of your behavior… but obviously knows nothing about you… so beware. Make sure your ego is very sober with girls like that.
>> This isn’t about getting to know you, this is about stimuli for her own vagina.
Disagree. Sometimes, you’re exactly right. Other times… it’s much more than that.
Sometimes it’s LITERALLY CHEMICALS. Chemicals your body doesn’t release until some boding starts. So that is not only short-term, shallow, sexual pleasure (which I like, and am in support of). That does require some time.
But… intentionally avoiding fast sex is not the way to get there. Agree.
And stimuli for her pussy is usually a good thing.
>> And, girls despise bottom guy, and bottom guy is ‘worker’, so if you ‘work to get them’ you’re out.
>> And, girls love top guy, and top guy is ‘easy and magical’, so when everything flows you’re in.
Right… it’s not about “working,” but it might take some time.
What is your vibe as you “take that time” with the girl. If it feels like work… you lack “ease” as a man. That is never attractive.
But if it feels like “play,” then… a little time is not a big deal.
Thanks, Yohami.
“And I told her I want to kiss her.”
Cough.
This feels like Krauser’s dg influence: http://www.krauserpua.com/2014/05/17/2-easy-kiss-close-gambits
If you read his reports [e.g. http://www.krauserpua.com/2017/07/05/moscow-stories-1%5D, you’ll see that he does a lot of “convincing a girl” why should sleep with him.
“You: When we get there, I’m going to kiss you.”
Yep, fuck that line.
– Why do you need ‘balls’ to kiss her?
– Why are you injecting an artificial barrier that must overcome in order to kiss her?
– Why do you assume that the combination of the two things above is alright?
Going to the root it’s bottom guy to the core and inserting walls and trouble to where it’s none. You’re not supposed to be afraid of her, and not supposed to take that fear and put it as a barrier between you two and then tell her how you’re gonna climb that barrier to get her. All that is you sabotaging the damn thing.
So are there exceptions? yes, when what you want is actually out of reach and the barrier is physical or has a high cost, in which case the ‘announcing’ doesn’t reflect your own desire to have barriers in the middle of you two, but your willingness to take the actual barriers down. Examples:
– You’re on the phone and tell her you’re gonna or wanna do X thing to her
– You’re long distance and tell her you want to X same above
This is specially good when she’s the one go has to go through the barrier, example:
– You’re long distance and you tell her you want her to come
– She’s busy with exams / friends / family / has other plans and you tell her to drop all that for you
You can turn this into ‘roleplay’ and make fun while escalating things as well, this is now very specific to the girl and the actual story and situation and how you’re leading things, example:
– When we get to that building, we’re getting married, do you have your docs with you? (and when we get to that other one we’re getting divorced, hey nothing lasts these days!)
– When we get to that post, you’re going to do a lap dance for me
– When we get to there, you’re going to tell me your darkest secret
——————–
But you don’t need balls to kiss her. If you actually do, well you shouldn’t, and you don’t get bonus points for rapporting your progress to her.
This should be obvious but you need something to compare against – because with SOME girls this won’t matter, they are already turned on so they only hear ‘kiss’, they don’t see what you actually did.
But if she’s screening, like most girls will be with you, she’ll just feel something is ‘off’ about it, something is ‘a little awkward’ about it, it may not be immediately ‘hey just be a fucking man and kiss me’, but the seed of it will be there, bothering her, and because this damn thing comes from your frame, you’ll repeat the damn thing in small or big ways, making that thing grow and solidify, till it makes her do the switch and move on. Which is how guys lose girls.
Grow your balls before the damn date, your balls should already be huge. The date is not the place to grow balls, but the place to use them.
———–
Another thing I’ve been exploring is that girls dislike bottom guy so much, and bottom guy is ‘worker’ so they dislike ‘work’ to the point they don’t understand it’s part of the travel a man has to go through.
All this thing like Rollo saying women don’t show appreciation for their men, what he’s probably referring to is women don’t show appreciation for the ‘work’ he puts into. But zooming out, women showing appreciation for ‘work’ would mean they’d be rewarding all the bottom men working hard to please them, and that’s not how it’s wired. The guy they are attracted to is all present and powerful, he doesn’t need to ‘work’, he makes others work, including her.
Things to ponder.
And ah yea, fuck that line. But that line is still ways better than “I want to kiss you” which gotta be among the worsts thing you can say, specially when you don’t actually do it.
“I want to kiss you” and not doing it is asking for permission. It’s creating the wrong kind of ‘tension’ and you’ll pay for it.
Krauser’s line “Im going to kiss you” is better in that it’s not asking for permission, he goes in to say her feedback doesn’t matter, basically you put it out there’ and you’re not being reactive. This is a step upwards. It’s like putting your dick out and now it’s her problem. Lots of courage there – of the wrong kind, because now she’s forced to be on the spot and make her own mind about it, aka, all the ‘tension’ is now on her side and she’s the one who has to make a move.
This thing of “I will insert tension here so you now have to make a move”
That’s not the path. Specially most of these times the move she has available is to stop you, or to not act (in the case of the dick out) then what? you’d chase some more.
The sort of tension that works in arousing the woman is this:
Anticipation and not knowing what you will do next.
That in bold, big font, uppercase.
*ANTICIPATION AND NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU WILL DO NEXT*
For her it has to feel magical / frictionless. It has to ping her emotions, and then give it to her in a big way when she’s ready for it.
So yeah it’s not about you having to show balls.
She was most likely licking someone’s balls that morning, she’s seen dick before, she’s kissed before, men better and more ballsy than you probably, this is not about she appreciating you for trying to conquer your fears, she’s looking for someone else, and asking herself if that could be you, right now.
Yohami good to see you are active and commenting
I caught up with you a few months ago on this blog.. I remember you from Rivelinos blog , he kicked me off because he claimed I was bragging too
Much about banging hot young pussy lol. But I think that is the goal no. I think you want that in the younger guys reading your comments
Anyway I am very concerned about what you are saying…because i am reading Krauser’s DI right now
My concern is that if Krauser is is not coming from “Top Guy” , then large portions of DI could be wrong.
Such as, what you saying, tell the girl “ I am going to kiss you”…. then the girl disappears after 1 bang because she detects incongruence,
Nassim Taleb author of “The Black Swan” and “Antifragile” said once ‘The truth in any subject necessarily lies furthest from the corpus of what the majority believes”
Your teaching of “Top Guy” is that —— furthest from what everyone thinks is the correct answer — tricks and “PUA Game”
“Top Guy” – just worry about being Situational Alpha in real life, do Alpha things, and Game will come naturally.
Anyway I am following what you are saying. Trying to put the pieces together. And reconcile DI with what you are saying.
I see many guys are reading the book because everyone respects Krauser for his obviously deep knowledge . To what extent it’s accurate seems to be up for debate with what you are saying ..,
Hey man… thanks for the comment.
>> My concern is that if Krauser is is not coming from “Top Guy” , then large portions of DI could be wrong.
We can all make up our own minds about the guys we respect, but I will point this out:
If you’re reading infinite… have you read about the “forcing IOIs,” and then “focusing on those sets” for opens? That was all excellent stuff from Krauser there.
If so… that is EXACTLY what Yohami was saying on the last post (“Social scientists”). I was thinking that Krauser and Yohami are say the same thing… and I liked that.
When Krauser has us “forcing IOIs,” that is “flirting”/swinging our dick (doesn’t need her to participate) and then if we see an IOI (“approach indicator”), then those sets should “always open” (not chasing rejection).
We can trying a TECHNIQUE (forcing IOIs, etc.) and then try a GIRL (a receptive one)… and our results will go up.
They are both saying that. Explicitly.
……
I can check a guys ideas via my own experience. And both Krauser and Yohami say things I can see in my own experience. That is the best way to know anything.
I encourage all of us to look at these ideas against our own experiences in the field.
…..
I’m not sure it’s still true… but Yohami has had a chip on his shoulder about daygame. And he has been anti Krauser, I believe, by extension of that prejudice.
And I think pushing Krauser at Yohami is “asking Yohami the wrong questions.” You will get arguments when you do that.
Push the concept… not the man. Yohami will be much more “fair” about the concept, than the man, in this case (I believe).
And that’s a better strategy, anyway. We should be after ideas.
….
What specific concept are you looking at? Bring that. And bring an EXAMPLE FROM YOUR OWN LIFE. Preferably patterns… not anecdotes.
That ^ makes for the best conversation.
Nash,
“anti Krauser”
Im 100% pro Krauser – my respects to that guy.
Im still anti bullshit so I’ll call it when I see it. Specially when the bullshit misleads.
Here you can see bottom vs top frames in action.
Frame 1) “swing your dick, flirt, see what arouses her, and do more of that”
Frame 2) “Force her IOIs”
Do you see it?
Now guess which one assumes rejection and which one assumes attraction, or, guess which one is on itself, more naturally attractive for the girl you’re dealing with.
The girl is in front of two guys, one will display his values, pay attention to what she likes, and give her more of what makes her feel good. The other guy will force her displays of interest.
All other things being equal, who wins?
—–
So, there’s a particular type of girl, a percentage, who will go for the ‘force’. That’s the girl the bottom guy gets, and that girl will make him force her, because she saw the ‘forced’ advertisement, said ‘yes’ to that, so that will be the name of the ride.
The other 99 girls said wtf and kept walking.
So – that above is a case where Krauser and I are looking at the same facts and data. And Badboy (I first read about forcing IOIs from badboy), and Mystery (he came up with the IOIs idea), so it’s not the data or reality what changes, it’s the frame reference.
The issue with Bottom Guy Frame is it comes from rejection, a sea of rejection, where arousal is never to be seen, so it must be ‘taken’, ‘tricked away’, ‘forced’
So “force her to like you”
“Trick her to rationalize being with you” (RSD still guilty of this)
“force her IOIs”
The presence of that frame will invariably sabotage the things you do, while you attempt to climb up, because you have parts of your system actively bringing you down.
Then you get a % of success that you use to reaffirm the wrong frame.
Aka you roll back.
Been there done that.
Sup man
““Top Guy” – just worry about being Situational Alpha in real life, do Alpha things, and Game will come naturally.”
Well that’s not it yet – Game will come naturally, but you still need to learn it. You need to learn the language.
Then “top guy” is the place, the frame from where you communicate. And Game is the language that fits that place.
Look at it this way.
When you’re in a front of a woman you must be the situational alpha in that interaction. Plus be congruent.
So how do you learn how to be a situational alpha there? And congruent?
Re: Daygame, I’d have to read the book to know, but the couple of perks that I’ve seen are wrongly framed, aka, they’ll reinforce bottom guy.
Nash very comprehensive post of your thought process here. This post touches on several key elements, here’s the key ones that came to mind as I read it:
When guys like Julian say the key to retaining a girl is to have sex “as fast as possible” what I take from that is they mean “as fast as her timetable allows”. For some girls that may be 5 minutes and for many more that may be 2-5 hours over 1 to 2 dates. The point I take from this sort of comment is that if you misread where a girl is and therefore don’t calibrate well to her timeline, she’s likely to lose interest in you.
Her timetable very basically are the high level mystery method steps: attraction -> comfort -> escalation & sex. Game is taking her through these steps, and good game is being calibrated to know where she is in terms of yes / maybe and adjusting the approach of taking her through those steps accordingly. And quoting Mystery the game is played in comfort (meaning on dates not the street stop).
I think there’s two broad categories here. The first is gaming her correctly in a calibrated way with all that entails. The second is avoiding doing things that may cause her to lengthen her timetable. For example if you present yourself as the lover by doing cold approach, but then later on a date she sees elements not congruent with this like that you would make a good provider because of things you shared on the date, she may either get confused and lose interest or lengthen her timeline because now she sees you as a potential boyfriend.
Personally from experience I’m a fan of defaulting to a two date model: one hour first date and a longer 2nd date at my place. The first date is over drinks/coffee where I touch her a lot and bring up sexual topics but don’t kiss her unless I read she’s ready for the lay at that time (only about 10% for me last year). This leaves her wanting more at the end of the date which actually works for you getting the lay as she starts missing and thinking about you while you vacuum a bit (to Yohami’s comment above that you’re in a girls head). Date 2 then is dinner at my place. This doesn’t work all the time but I’ve found it’s a good percentage play, and you can then calibrate and go faster (date 1 lay) or slower (date 3 lay) as needed.
In my strong opinion the best way to “maximize” the volume of sex you get is the “recurring revenue” from good harem management. As you know I’m a big fan of Blackdragon’s methods because in my experience they work extremely well. I have tested and experienced first hand how seemingly minor things such as how often you text a girl and how often you schedule dates with her truly influences how long you can retain her in your rotation and the amount of drama that goes with it. The method Blackdragon teaches is based on his long term data and it works, a good introduction to him is on your favorite pua’s podcast and I do highly recommend it (35 mins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtnALqGqnf8
I think the thought you have in your mind influences the way you will ultimately be perceived and the way you act.
When I walk up the street it is already made up in my mind that I never get out of any ones road – I will always hold my line regardless of the size and number of people in a group (barring tiny kids or very old people). It is also never the conscious thought – I am not getting out of this person road – because that doesn’t work – just a prior decision and a blank mind. 99% of people consequently get out of my road. I walk straight through a large group of footballers say or four big burly guys and they part like the red sea and say shit back at me as I continue to walk away but they always move. Or the rare occasion someone will get out of your road and hit you with their arm – but very very rare. Or someone will try and hold their line but at the very last second will move. I am not big by any stretch of the imagination.
Same with the idea I should try for fast fast as opposed to just deciding I will go for fast sex and think nothing more of it. Or I will try at a natural pace which may vary.
Or the thought I am ‘trying’ to fuck you or I would ‘like’ to fuck you or I am learning how to try and fuck you as opposed to just deciding I want to fuck you.
If you are in a city for a short time and the strategy is to hit a certain number target with a ticking clock then this no doubt gets conveyed in a sense. As opposed to the idea I will go out and day game today in this city and have no set amount of approaches to do – you might do ten or 100 at the end of the day but you won’t have that time pressure idea in your mind or a set target in your mind.
I went to a gallery the other day which the main collection was free to enter. They also had a touring exhibition that was a paid entrance. At the time I thought it too was free so I just walked straight through and no one on the entry asked to see my ticket. It was only when I got home that I saw the price for entry.
I hear you on these comments. These don’t relate to this analysis of fast/dates for me… but I follow the way you’re thinking here… and I can see how that might resolve that for you.
I worked through my thoughts in writing that post… and I am back to fast sex. That is my answer. And I can “be closer to flow” about it (which is how I take your comments above), as I’m not “consciously” picking my way through that on the date. And not “self-consciously” making that choice, at the time, will let me act with more grace. I’ll be more congruent.
I did consciously try to “not fast sex” a girl on this trip… escalated in bed, but intentionally didn’t try to close… and I think I could have. I think it was a mistake. I haven’t heard from here in a couple of weeks. May have nothing to do with my decision that night… I felt very smooth that night… but I wish I had just taken the notch… for the instant gratification of it.
For me… this post is about the analysis… and I’ve analyzed it. That is done (for now). I will go for fast sex. But… I will FOCUS ON HER AROUSAL… which will help me avoid the mistake Krauser’s student made… and from there… she can pace me… and I like dating girls (except when I don’t), so that is fine when fast sex is not on the table.
….
Good to have you here, man.
Ok, so sharing my experience with fast sex: If girls think fast sex means that we are jumping in fast into a relationship, so it is pre-framed that way, they stay and fast sex leads to a lot of sex. But if she thinks I am a player getting one more notch under my belt, fast sex can happen but the girls ghost no matter how “boyfriendy” I try to be afterwards, they seem to feel bad for some reason, as if I’m going to think they are sluts although I do not think so at all.
But I have never seen this fast sex vs dating as a dichotomy. Ever since GLL’s time, he was clear in what he said: fast sex will get you fast sex, but the girls won’t stick around for long, but you can do “boyfriend” things here and there to keep them longer. Going on dates will make girls invest more in you and so dating for 2 months or whatever will make them stick much longer than fast sex girls.
Also, Tyler talks about how he does go on dates with girls even if it takes him 6 months to get sex, BUT he makes sure to not be seen as a full k-selected guy, he keeps it r-selected, but not “thirsty”.
Alex that used to be in RSD said something that might explain a bit of the RSD stance. He said: the fastest way to have sex with a girl is to not try to have sex fast with her. It’s to let her become ready for sex. That’s the best and fastest way.
Even Krauser talks in his definition of calibration about this: knowing which date is the sex date. Which means he does NOT go for fast sex as the first option, but he calibrates to know the signs that show the girl is ready to have sex. That can be on the same day or it can be after 5 dates, it doesn’t matter. You’re calibrating, so you’re not going against walls, you’re doing your thing and when you see potential for arousal so strong that it leads to sex and the girl being comfortable and ready (which is different from the beta frame of waiting for a girl to show signs that it is okay for the guy to fuck her, this is talking about calibration) then you move in for sex.
The fast sex model was never the ultimate goal in pickup. The reason for it is when you start as a nice guy, you need first to go to the extreme of being a badass (fast sex) before you become a badass buddha.
So you start nice, you go to the extreme of fast sex (or need to go there if you’re staying somewhere for a short time), then once you master that, you can then read the signs well to calibrate properly and go back to the date model.
Todd talks about this too: going too fast will make you lose girls that are not ready but get girls who are ready for fast sex. HOWEVER, if you are a bit more patient, you would have gotten both types of girls.
>> If girls think fast sex means that we are jumping in fast into a relationship, so it is pre-framed that way, they stay and fast sex leads to a lot of sex.
How many times have you tried this, vs how many times it’s worked? I personally think this is another community myth / “misinterpretation.”
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but this also sounds like “boy logic” to me… when articulated like that. A “how we think” vs “how they think” kind of thing.
Sundance and I have been talking about “establishing rules.” He is interested in some Captain Jack thinking. I want Sundance to write about it…
And I fired back that “girls don’t make emotional contracts with guys.” They do not.
They are into you, or not. And they want more, or less. And we are moving closer/farther from sex… but I specially don’t believe we can “negotiate” fuck buddy type situations… I think those happen… but only because OUR BEHAVIOR sends signals of what she can expect and SHE LIKES US so she wants more.
The “pre-framing” concept sounds too much like a “contract” to me. And contracts are meaningless with creatures of emotion.
My two cents.
>> but the girls ghost no matter how “boyfriendy” I try to be afterwards, they seem to feel bad for some reason
THIS is ^ very close to what I am interested in.
I think they do “feel bad.” This is where I am going with the “MEANING” conversation. That is what the Chinese Fasion Girl from NYC was saying in my post about her…
I know I dissed Julien’s “backwards rationalization” usage… but I’m not against that concept as a whole… just his dumbshit “it’s easy to make them to be your GF” read.
EX: If a girl fucks you, fast, loves it, then leaves, and you text her… but you use another girls name… the MEANING of the sex the night before can transform in an instant. That is an example of how MEANING IS FLEXIBLE.
So she can meet you, like you, fuck you… but then “get the feels” the next day… for any reason at all.
And I think that is absolutely reduced by more dates… more time together. It makes the meaning a little less flexible. Fast sex means the “meaning” is very loosely based.
That’s why I think it’s smart for HER to make us wait. I won’t tell her that… but that is smart. The meaning will be more solid for her.
We could use her FRIEND as an example of how MEANING CHANGES: If she fucks us fast, tells her friend, her friend “rolls her eyes,” then the whole MEANING for our girl could change… “Oh, yeah, like, that was bad, wasn’t it?” But if she had 3 dates… she has “internal rationale” for social criticism. Even with the eyeroll, she could say, “Whatever… he took me to his favorite beach, I saw pics of his grandma, he knows my first dogs name even… I don’t care what she thinks, we know each other… that sex was romantic.”
And even for ME… my sense of “MEANING” changes rapidly, with little cues. I have a post I am writing where I will say more about this. So even for me… I will aim for fast sex… but sometimes the experience is more “solid” when we connect a bit first.
THIS is a lot of what I was after in that post… I didn’t get this far, but yeah.
Maybe a thing happening here is a Top guy has fast sex with a girl and being a Top guy the girl wants to be his girlfriend not because of the fast sex but because he is Top guy. Top guy had fast sex because he is Top guy. This particular Top guy gives the advice – if you want to get a girlfriend have fast sex – backwards rational. Men who are not Top guy yet now think if I want the girl to be a girlfriend or regular I should push for fast sex. They then go out with a mission to have fast sex or push things forward at a pace that is unnatural because – I got to have fast sex now as a strategy.
>> Maybe a thing happening here is a Top guy has fast sex with a girl and being a Top guy the girl wants to be his girlfriend not because of the fast sex but because he is Top guy.
That is trying to find a better reason for the “fact” that girls that fuck us after fast sex “want to be our GFs.”
I don’t see that last part as true… so I’m not searching for a theory to support it.
>> Men who are not Top guy yet now think if I want the girl to be a girlfriend or regular I should push for fast sex… push things forward at a pace that is unnatural
It is very possible to me that I AM JUST NOT TOP GUY, so therefore… when I fast sex… the girls doesn’t alway gag for more.
I don’t buy that… because that still assume that girls always want to go LTR/fuck buddy with a guy that fast sexes them.
And I think it very possible that girls want fast sex… because they want fast sex. And the guy is a prop. I’m not mad about that, but OF COURSE that is true some of the time.
…
That girls want more from TOP GUY, I don’t doubt that. A lot of the time.
But girls that want to sport fuck STILL DON”T want more… they just have a better time sport fucking Top Guy than they would some other dude.
…
None of that is what I am really after. Top Guy is an anomaly.
For guys that aren’t Top Guy yet… how many girls do we lose, because we push to fast? That is the point.
And I’m resolved to continue to go fast… but to double down on what works, and not push against resistance. To be about arousal. And date when that is “what works.”
Tyler in this section of this video talks exactly about what you’re wondering about in this post: https://youtu.be/DZtFlszT6Sc?t=23m48s
“Top Guy is an anomaly.”
It’s not. Because we’re not talking about a guy who is Top Guy in perfection in every part of his life at all times, but ‘top guy while interacting with her’
This is how it rolls in real life.
Each tribe has one or two situational alphas, at least.
The girls naturally gravitate towards them
The situational alphas have a positive feedback loop that quickly makes them entitled, plus also have more girls they can deal with, which results in outcome independence, abundance mindset etc, they’ll neg and act detached naturally, bust balls, tease, etc naturally.
The girls are coming towards these guys already aroused, and trying to outcompete the other girls. When they interact with the guys operating from the top guy frame, they get more aroused, they offer compliance, the make it ‘easier’ for the guys to make moves. They come for the top guy frame, and the top guy frame arouses them more, all while competing for the guy with all the other girls. Sex happens fast and wild.
This above is not an anomaly: this is how most sex happens.
This is what’s happening on every single human tribe. This is the reality all girls live in. This is what Krauser wrongly names a ‘secret society’. It’s not a secret. This is the game. It’s the only game.
Just that you were not part of it.
” how many girls do we lose, because we push to fast?”
This isn’t about speed but about precision: she exposed her arousal spots and the ‘non top guys’ failed to notice them, because they don’t know arousal, and instead think they need to push against rejection or force things, and quickly (trying to be push thinking that’s what an alpha does), so it’s all offsync. That’s how bottom guy loses the girls.
Not because it tries to go fast but because it’s all over the place and pushing forward on the wrong spots
AN OLD RULE:
I am fascinated by “rules” I had when I was a kid, that still seem true to me, after all this experience.
When I was very young… like maybe I had only fucked 1 or 2 girls…. I knew even then that 3-4 dates was a normal window for sex. That seemed “fast” enough for me then. But 3-4 dates is still normal, in my view, for many sexual situations. Krauser is saying that above. That’s not my preferred pace, but it’s a fact I can see.
I think we all know this. I think there might be something semi-universal about that pace.
We can go faster, and that can be cool, cooler than 3-4 dates…. yes. True.
But… we CANNOT really go slower. If you miss that 3-4 date window, as a man, you fall into the “can’t get it done” category. And she may fuck you, and you may end up as her BF… but you are especially vulnerable to getting cucked by an Alpha. Because she has PROOF you are not a “bold/dominant” guy. So a showing by a bold guy will be in high contrast to you when you start slow.
……………..
I am going to post soon about a girl I had sex with on the seventh date… but it wasn’t “slow seduction.” I know now I could have gone faster, but I thought I was “pushing it” as fast as I could the whole time. I was aggressive… she was a “passionate no” the whole time… and very nervous… but even so, I could have moved her along faster.
It is very cool, as it is. I am a consistent “sexual monster” to her… even if other guys have been cooler and/or faster.
Interesting stuff.
Dates are only good if you’re her type or if you’ve made the terms of the relationship clear. It’s why dates work for internet guys. She already said she wants to date you.
Internet guys and Ecosystem gamers aren’t cold approach and their advice confuses the situation. There are a few principles that are universal, but when your value is already super high (ecosystem) a level of compliance can be achieved automatically, and if you’re an internet guy she has already agreed to the idea of dating you. This is at a minimum, and I would argue at least a difference in color as well, a Gala vs Red Delicious vs Fuji apple talk.
A few things I’ve just learned from Gunwitch, who mostly daygames, and Captain Jack, night gamer but his contribution to pick-up is principle to all forms of game…start with the intention of SDL and work backwards from there.
Calibration isn’t fundamental to getting laid…that’s what increases your conversion rate. Calibration is ultimately the highest order skill because you need to be in the exact same stage with different girls to know your options and what’s most likely to work. I don’t think it can be taught or learned from a blog post. At best it gives you an option to throw against the wall. She’ll forgive you once, but you better start making progress soon. Escalate on everything but a “no” because most girls will be amber. As 60 YoC says escalation is attraction.
You should always push any daygame set as far as your personal logistics allow. Gunwitch’s hypothesis is that a significant source of flakes come from the fact that you basically turn into a dating profile after she cools off. She only dates guys who are like x, y, z. She’ll fuck a much wider range of guys than she’ll ever even consider dating. If girls’ weakness is they are a slave to their emotions in the moment why on earth would you ever give them a chance to reconstitute their rationality??? No answer is good here btw.
If you didn’t make it clear that you are out to fuck, she doesn’t know the terms and since most guys want to hold her until the end of time she assumes you are out to date. This is why Captain Jack was literally 5 years ahead of Krauser and everybody else. You need to make the terms of this engagement clear as soon as possible. This is why Krauser now tells you to be touching her early and often now. It disambiguates the game you’re playing, and is also why safe daygame leads to needing to approach 100 women to sleep with 1 or 2. You’re not an asian, tall, only 5 years older than she is.
About LMR: Not enough tension was created. Tension is the precondition to any action. Focus on the tension and LMR will drop off. Also I’ve thought about this idea….
Me: {goofy cheeky smile as bait}
Her: What?
Me: I was just thinking if after I kiss you, you’re going to do the typical girl thing and pretend that you don’t want me to keep kissing you. And then after I start touching your body if you’ll pretend that you don’t want me to but secretly you want me to overcome your resistance…
Or some variation of this theme.
Fundamentals to getting laid:
Her agreeing
A place
Escalation
Everything else is secondary and contextual
>> …start with the intention of SDL and work backwards from there.
Is this “rake” game? Is this what Casanova thinks in set? What does Zan think in-set?
I’m with you… I am thinking SDL on the street a lot. But there is a flavor to that I want to tune into.
>> Calibration isn’t fundamental to getting laid
You lose me on this statement. Calibration… is why I last even one sec with her. I don’t see her in the 2nd second… unless I’m calibrated in the 1st. And that never stops.
If you mean this “arousal escalation” that Yohami is talking, sure. But calibration… is there at every level of the seduction… at each layer. It’s like oxygen to seduction.
>> You should always push any daygame set as far as your personal logistics allow.
This is really on my mind… and basically also at the center of the post.
I will back off of that point, and go back to my goals: To have a good experience, and to give her a good experience. Nothing “white knight” there. I know girls like to get fucked. I know they like to get fucked fast… quite often. I have a good experience with fast sex… much of them time.
But…
And I’ll be personal…
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/first-date-online-girl-girl-tornado/
I don’t talk about ^ that date much. It was very early in this “recent chapter” of my life in game, where I kinda-sorta know what I’m doing. With that girl, amazing sexual sparkle… and I “pushed it as hard as I could”… physically, etc. I would very much have taken her home. I had the logistics for it. I was trying.
And in that case (and I am trying to be about PATTERNS, not anecdotes…) I’m sure that was the wrong move. No… I didn’t get her to “agree to the game,” and maybe that is why is I don’t personally subscribe to “push it far as LOGISTICS allow ” anymore.
Maybe that is it… how can you “push it as far as LOGISTICS allow” without first getting her to agree to that specific game?
(I don’t think girls make agreements… even implicit ones. I’m not sold on the “agree to games” part… I think that’s GREAT for “retrospective analysis,” for breakdowns, but not for my planning and real-time work… but I am trying to use your terms).
Different rules for different men at different places in their game… but “push as far as LOGISTICS allow” isn’t the tool I personally need. I don’t suffer from lack of willingness to “push.” All of Yohami’s “focus on arousal” has been a GREAT higher level tool for me… because it incorporates “IT DEPENDS” into the definition, whereas “push to the max of logistics” does not.
One rule is very “alive” the other is made of stone.
And you and I (for the record, Sundance is my personal wing, a friend of mine, and a great fucking pickup guy, I admire his game)… I like what you’ve done for my game by pushing me toward rake/Casanova game. I think you are right on there. And Yohami’s guidance on “arousal” overlays well with that style of seduction.
That is where I am going. Recommitting to fast sex. And recommitting to Casanova game. And all over the idea of “focus on arousal” (hers and mine).
>> Gunwitch’s hypothesis is that a significant source of flakes come from the fact that you basically turn into a dating profile after she cools off.
This is a great comment… and explains a lot about what happens between open and messaging stage. And I see how “push as far as logistics allows” could (theoretically) help here.
…………
Go Sundance. And… congrats again on our latest daygame success. Very stoked for you. Looking fwd to hearing more.
Agree with you on the importance of Captain Jack’s frames. So many issues in game are the result of people setting up one frame and then trying to transition to another.
Casanova’s memoirs is a good read (its long) – adjusting his approach to the woman in front of him.
Robert Greens art of seduction is similar in categorizing women into types. Neither are revelations but they help you to see patterns and classify women. (I read them a while ago.)
You can start to see patterns in women in the approaches that work better for certain types on top of focusing on arousal.
I think there are the women you go after and you adjust the approach depending on their type and there is also the woman you naturally attract. The latter I tend to think what would I like to do or what circumstances or criteria of a place to go out would suit me, what do I like to talk about and mostly it fits them to a tee e.g go to a bar at lunch time on a week day that serves nice tea – place is deserted, cool music playing, not too loud, just me and her and a maybe a drunk in the corner or no one else (these types don’t drink or not much).
I am excited to read Casanova. He seems very opposite of R.Greene. Greene… is mostly repulsive to me.
>> Casanova’s memoirs is a good read (its long) – adjusting his approach to the woman in front of him.
And ^ this concept has also been on my mind…
How do we “adjust” and remain THE CENTER OF OUR OWN LIVES?
I wrote THIS BELOW on Twitter:
……………..
PROPER MEN are hunters, not social chameleons.
We don’t “change for the girl,” even to get laid. Not even for a night.
We have different bait for different prey. That is the way we hold INTEGRITY as men… and still customize our game for a given hunt.
“PROPER MEN are hunters”
Men are hunters of monsters, not of women.
This will sink in soon I hope.
Between men and women, women are the hunters of men.
When you become their hunter you’re forcing a frame reversal, and the result is they run away.
Try being the prize, the one attracting, not the one chasing. Just – try. Try man.
I’ve been putting my thoughts together about the question you had at Riv’s about how to ‘jump the gap’ into sex for non-top guys. I’ll write some later.
“Try being the prize, the one attracting..”
Aaargghhh. Sounds too passive. Passive=feminine :(
It’s not passive at all man. This shit is so funny and it should be obvious.
You see the girls getting dressed and putting makeout and getting themselves all attractive and all jumpy around the few coold dudes who are there just chilling and not giving a fuck…
And bottom guy frame thinks the way to be a man is being like these girls.
Instead of being more like the ‘passive’ guys who are not giving a fuck.
So you run after the girls like you were a girl, asking ‘hey tell me what to do” and the girls run away. So you ask ‘wtf is going on’ so you learn Game, and game tells you “emulate the one having value” which would be emulating either how the women treat you, or emulating the cool guy on top who doesn’t give a fuck so…
You run after girls just to tell them “hey look at me I don’t give a fuck” “hey but don’t run away I do give a fuck”
That guy on top is not ‘passive’. He’s in a power position.
What you lack is power.
All your movement and chase comes from you not having power.
Your ‘active’ status comes from desperation. Your ‘hunt’ comes from you being hungry. You think the value is out there so you go for it.
Like that, all the rules of the game are set against you.
All the game advice out there is made so you mask your hunger because it’s rotten. All the advice is there so you cover that and don’t show your hand, because when you show your hand, it’s the hand of a broken man. So you get rejected.
——
Being the prize is not a passive thing. You’re the initiator, the leader, the one commanding.
WOMEN ARE YOUR REWARD.
Your fucking reward.
They belong to you.
You don’t chase what you already own.
For fucks sake.
Here’s the script as nature intended it.
Monster comes in town.
Women hide. Most guys run afraid. The girls who were with these guys feel disgusted “not a real man”.
Enter the hero, faces the monster, defeats it with ease, and stands high on its corpse.
The guys who watched the fight took note “so that’s how you do it, that’s what I have to become”. The guys who were too afraid to watch the fight are now chased by the ghost of the monster, they’ll always be afraid.
But the monster is dead. The women come out of hiding, surround the hero, they are all aroused “here’s a real man”. They look at each other and they all agree “give us the real man”
The hero looks at the girls surrounding him and smiles, says “sup girls?” they are all for his taking.
——
So what you’re trying to learn in game is this:
“sup girls?” with a smile.
It looks easy. It’s so easy for the natural guy.
What you’re not seeing is that the guy is standing on a dead monster he killed himself. He CAN kill the monster, he did, he will again in the future, he did on the past. All these girls around him, he knows he has them, that was never a challenge, he’s quite happy to see them. He knows what girls look like when aroused, he has the exposition and the experience, he’s done them all before, and he will in the future.
“sup girls?”
And the girls scream in pleasure at unison.
—–
The monster is not women and women are not your prey.
When women are your prey, then you’re failing to use your hunting skills where they go.
You’ll hear this thing again and again that you have to put yourself and your life first and have a mission and goals and such.
This is to say: your own life is the monster. That’s the one you have to tame down. That’s the thing to conquer. That’s the thing to get on top of. That’s the challenge. That’s what you have to show up to.
——
So with game – you can learn to emulate the behavior of the guy on top of the dead monster without having to face the monster or do any heroic shit, and do so as a facade because you know or you’ve been told that’s what women respond to, and you’re in this constant push from the back of the tribe trying to get some action and this seems to be what chicks are into.
So you memorize the ‘sup girls’ and pull a smile and try to act detached and try to act like you don’t care.
So you get some girls around you. But something is off about you. What is it?
So they ‘shit test’, or, they screen the shit out of you until that unease feeling goes away. Is he the real deal? or is he posing?
In the back and forth, at any point where you break character, go offscript, and she notices it (big IF here), then you’re out and she’s moved on to the next impostor.
:-D
Why do girls stop you from fighting the monster/conquering ur life and want to monopolize all ur attention? Is it to stop u from getting access to all the other girls that comes with killing monsters?
They are just greedy and petty – part of your job is to not let them overreach. “top guy” is not going to stop killing monsters because girl no. 94 tells him to.
But there are more mechanics involved
– Girls want more. Arousal also means ‘give me more’. If she sees something she likes, she wants more. All the girls surrounding the hero on the story I mentioned are not there saying “oh yeah why do you flee to the next town and kill some more shit”, but “hey here, here I am, give me all of that, give it all to me, to me to me to me to me to me to mee, give it all to me, look at my boobs, see my pussy, oh yes I want it all”. So what she’ll do is take it all and make babies. She can’t stop herself. She’s too hungry. She has no boundaries. This is Dalilah and Samson and also the mantis insect, and the vagina with teeth thing. She will eat your archetype, if you let her, and decorate her nest. All these girls surrounding the hero are hunting. The hero is food. This is literal.
– Girls perceptions are static and don’t understand how A becomes B. Show a girl a song and she doesn’t like it. Let her hear it a couple more times and then she loves it. Show him a guy putting the work to become the Hero and she sees a loser. Show him the guy a few years later when he’s a hero and she loves him. There’s no negotiating with this. This means that all the work that you have to put to achieve what you want in life, all that to her is nothing but ‘bottom guy’. You can’t expect her to respect the work you have to put in. Showing her the mountain you want to climb only works against you as now you are measuring against something bigger than you and therefore you look smaller. Women have a static perception.
So climb on your defeated monsters and stand proud, and dont make them part of our decision making and set boundaries so they don’t mess up with your work and don’t steal the energy you need to succeed. Most will cheer you up when you win (some wont). Some will nurture and take care of your wounds when you fail (most wont). None will join you along the ride (the ones that do are not playing by the female script, but some other script, if you find one, keep her).
like the slaying monster analogy, but what do you do when you’re in a village where there’s lots of guys slaying monsters just as you do? Other than move to a village full of pussies.
There are two aspects – the external and the internal.
One is that you’re actually slaying all the monsters and you have the physical proof – aka money / success / contextual status.
The other is your psychological state, behaviors, frame reference etc. What Im talking about here is mostly about your frame reference and your psychology, though if you really walk this path you’ll end up with the associated physical proof.
So – taking the material angle. If you’re in say, hollywood or the san trope (whatever) full of rich people and supermodels and you are a nobody, then you better get your psychology to a top notch state and find a way to stand out by other means, aka, find your angle.
And taking the psychological angle, if you’re in a village full of confident, resourced, dominant, assertive men… first, that place likely doesn’t exist, second, same, find a way to stand out, make your own niche.
If it’s true and you’re on a level playing field and you’ve got no way to stand out, ‘everyone is doing the same as you and every man is a conqueror’. What I would do is sell tickets to women to go visit your village, it sounds like a goldmine. But if you don’t see enough traction, chances are you are not standing out enough, and moving somewhere else could be beneficial. Or not. Depends on where you go.
I saw young boys from Austria became superstar womanizers in Argentina because they were ‘rare’ for example. Same for white guys in Thailand. Any foreigners in brazil, etc. Pick your angle, aka your own monster to kill, your own feedback loop that doesn’t rely on getting validation from pussy – that’s the most unreliable form of it and it’s taken away as soon as you need it.
While you “passively” look cool at the bar, I’ll come in approach every cute girl in the place and exchange numbers with her.
Fast sex is really a less expensive option,however,it doesn’t work for all the girls.
Having lots of dates needs more money. There are lots of rich men who don’t have enough time to daygame and There are lots of men who daygame but don’t have enough money to pay for different date venues,Taxi,…
May be only the PUAs have enough money and time to daygame very much.
>> Having lots of dates needs more money.
Hey man… I have been thinking about your comment here for a couple of days. I wanted to get back to you.
And you’re right. That is a very fair thing to say about all this.
>> May be only the PUAs have enough money and time to daygame very much.
No… don’t take your mind down that road. That is a cop out.
I use money, because I have some… but NO GIRL wants me because I take her to dinner. That is obvious. The money isn’t the thing… it never is.
I really respect guys that dont have a ton of cash and still want a “harem” of women. It can be done. Many of the best players have no cash at all. All the “brown” guys in the US do well in this area… I am thinking of Puerto Ricans and Mexican kids I know (I come from a poor Mexican neighborhood… everyone got laid there)… no cash, lots of dates. Simple dates.
Maybe fast sex might be a better option. And… being creative with “low cost” dates.
I think daygamers are lucky when it comes to low cost dates… we are used to being with girls in the daylight. That means “afternoon” dates should be pretty realistic for us… going on a walk (that ends at your place)… or sandwiches in the park (you can even tell her to make them, and you’ll bring desert… bring a brownie… 2$)… all that can be badass seduction material.
Game trumps money. That’s a fact.
Coffee works too. I pay for girls … but every time I take a girl for coffee (like on an idate), she is always ready to buy her own drink. Wallet out, every time. Let her do it. A lot of guys would say that is good game… you buy your coffee. And then stand there, and chat, while she orders hers. Don’t offer to pay for her. She can afford coffee. And after you both have coffee.. run your date. That kind of date only costs you 3$.
Keep going, man. You don’t need cash… you need “balls.” That’s all that matters here. Be creative.
It depends on the country you live too.
When I was in Turkey I found out only advanced seducers or a lucky guy can get laid the same day. When I was in Thailand I could get laid the same day easier cause the sex was not a taboo there.
There are lots of flakes in the middle of fast sex too specially western girls.
How do we adjust …
I guess the fundamentals never change. Once you have everything clear on those in your mind, are congruent with them and understand women – now focusing on arousal – you adjust to the particular woman. Some are visual, some are kinesthetic, some respond to a style of language. Most are a combination of a few different things.
People all have their language of love supposedly and no doubt they have their combination of things that turn them on. I have seen first hand the effect of NLP style things or suggestive language (purely coincidental) by what I happened to be talking about.
I have heard stories of other people doing the same – telling a story (not thinking it would have an effect) and at the end of the story an excuse being made to show them something and getting a blow job. I have got into many fist fights over the years and I was telling a few people about a few of them (not in a bragging way just recalling an experience) one girl was right into it and was over me later.
Some girls are very flighty/sensitive and have very fast reflects and trying to touch them their natural instinct is to recoil very fast and close down – these you just do nothing and they will start to touch you when they are ready after being turned on by another way.
Some are all for staring – staring at them and holding the gaze all night at a party turned her on until she came over, then a style of conversation and you wind up back at her place (she had a steady stream of guys approaching her all night so doing the opposite worked). On the other hand some girls hate starring, won’t even hold your gaze and it you continue to stare after the initial eye play you are a spineless creep. There is never one size fits all. Cycle through a few and focus on what resonates.
Do you want to become an expert at all the different types of things? Personally I can’t be overly bothered to do so and do what comes naturally to me and attract the same types which happen to be quite attractive usually so that works for me. But I am aware of there being different types.
Maybe a basic combination of things appeals to a large section of women – and therefore it is considered this works for all women (e.g. kino, got to touch her – I have seen first hand touching her straight away doesn’t work and I banged these types. Yet touching most women straight away probably works.) A smaller percentage of women are probably different and more specialized.
Do what ever comes natural to you and it will be natural. Start parroting some script and it probably won’t be natural.
If you only focused on these things that turned women on and had everything else wrong – its unlikely to be much help. What you focus on expands – if you start to focus on arousal you can see certain things have an effect.
I have seen often I will randomly coincidentally be talking in a very suggestive way to a woman (purely innocently) and you can notice her getting quite turned on. One older lady walked around in a circle afterwards in a confused state then came back and whispered in my ear she would be thinking of me next time she is doing it as she left.
Yohami, you are a brilliant individual.
I was experimenting with dealing with girls from a place of not needing an outcome, she can move forward or not, as if I had a lot of options and not too hang up on any.
And amazingly, the girls stay. I mean, I am used to putting more “effort” to make girls and to be pursuing them while they retreat somehow. Here, I am doing me, and they can join in or go, and surprisingly, many join in.
Yes, some girls won’t put effort, but surprisingly they are fewer than expected. Some girls will message me after 1 or 2 days, I forgot about them, but they are the ones pursuing.
I am coming from the right frame, training myself to be there. So I am not doing it as a technique. I am doing it from a place of: I am living my life, some girls I will fuck, some girls I will not. It will be amazing either way. And some girls sense that and want to join in.
I expected to be “doing” to get to this level. But many girls like me more when I am not trying to get them.
Congrats man. It’s not surprising at all!
When you’re used to that – start turning this thing:
“with dealing with girls from a place of not needing an outcome”
Into leading, taking action, and telling them what to do.
And then rewarding compliance, and punishing any boundary crossing.
You’ll see a x10 multiplier to the point every girl is into you, while you’re putting only a small fraction of energy of what you’re used to put in.
Keep rocking.
@yohami
I put forth some questions regarding top guy stuff on riv’s “i just crashed against a wall” post. U can import and answer them here if it fits.
I’ll take a look
Thank you Yohami.
Ok, how do I reconcile “leading, taking action, and telling them what to do” with something that I noticed girls do, which is they set the early frame of “I do not like pressure, I do not want pressure”.
So won’t telling them what to do at all times be “pressure” they feel? Or what do they mean with that “I do not like pressure, especially the expectation of having sex”?
My thinking is they mean what the thirsty guys lower ranked in the tribe do, which is they pursue pursue pursue clinging to any little attention the girls give.
They do not mean pressure as in the king giving them attention.
But it would be great if you explained what you understand about this “no pressure”. Because some guys like that Alex Social says to put zero pressure, so all you do is be around the girl without leading to sex at all, and at some point, sex will happen. That if you want sex, that is pressure, and it will turn girls off.
“I do not like pressure, I do not want pressure”.
Push and pull – but Im redefining terms here, because bottom frame doesn’t understand push and pull.
————————–
You dont ‘push’ to get into her pants.
You ‘push’ to push her away and let her go fuck herself.
Push are negs and taking away your attention. Also breaking rapport. Also teases. Also some form of roleplays are push (like casting her in a character where she has to justify herself out of). Also any form of boundary setting. Basically anything where you exec your judgement on her and doesn’t paint her on the best light. All that is push, you’re literally increasing the amount of distance between you too. You do this when she doesn’t follow your lead, when she doesn’t offer compliance, when she shit tests you, when she roleplays that you’re bottom guy, when she acts as if it’s your job to chase her, and / or when you think pushing her away is just fun. This is VERY attractive for a woman.
————————–
You ‘pull’ to fuck her.
Pull is showing leadership, telling her what to do, giving her attention, and it comes with a ‘space’ where she’s free to come to you. You ping her desire, and let her come to you. You tell her what to do, then allow her to follow you. Doing what you want and pleasing you and giving you compliance is the default female behavior, so you show authority, then let her free to obey. You act dominant, then let her free to be submissive.
This is ‘pull’ because this is you using your male gravity, and letting the girl be the girl. The basic nature of women is that this is what they want.
That’s the ‘come here’ and then letting them actually come here. This is the ‘get naked’ and then letting them get naked.
So you ping her desire, then you get out of the way and let her come to you.
Pull is how you lead.
——————————
So because Bottom Guy doesn’t know shit he tries to fuck her by pushing and doesn’t understand wtf is pulling. He tries to force pulling to “hey come here” as a push.
So the push happens when she’s not aroused, it becomes pushing against her resistance. And ‘girls don’t like pressure’
Because pressure doesn’t let her be submissive to you. Pressure means you’re not leading her.
——————————-
“My thinking is they mean what the thirsty guys lower ranked in the tribe do, which is they pursue pursue pursue clinging to any little attention the girls give.”
Like desperate chihuahuas with a boner.
“They do not mean pressure as in the king giving them attention.”
Correct.
When the king tells them what to do and waits – the girls know this is their chance to grab what they want or otherwise it’s gone forever, because some other girl will comply where they don’t.
If the king then comes ‘but do what I want, do it, do what I want’ etc that stops being King like behavior and turns into childish – it breaks the script, so she’ll set walls up.
——————————-
“Because some guys like that Alex Social says to put zero pressure”
Alex is bottom guy. Or being generous, Alex lives in bottom guy frame (he can still get out of there).
The issue with bottom frame is that your desire when there is toxic, so when you want things, you act as if there’s a wall preventing you from getting them, so all your intent comes with ‘pressure’ embedded. So to actually get what you want you need to tune your own self down and act as if you don’t really care – this allows you to channel the ‘pull’ more.
Alex acts as a pushy chihuahua and he has to tune the shit out of it so he stops pushing against the girl’s resistance and allow her to turn herself on by his manly attributes, which he has when he’s not too busy impersonating flipper the dolphin.
Every time you see a ‘paradox’ in game it’s about talking to the bottom frame about not being as needy in wanting what he wants.
“so all you do is be around the girl without leading to sex at all, and at some point, sex will happen.”
Well do you see it. “even if you’re not pushing the sex will somehow happen”
BECAUSE GIRLS ARE THERE FOR THE SEX.
They just wont fuck the bottom guy you keep bringing to the date.
Read that text conversation with the above on mind
https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/yohamis-magical-texting-with-miss-sunshine/
Each line from me is either a push or a pull, and there’s PLENTY of beta bait from the girl. Try to classify each line I wrote, is it a push or a pull?
Also funny: “to hear your beautiful voice of course ;-)” is a NEG. Do you see it?
Ok, I followed that. I can’t see that neg unless in real life the girl has a weird voice. Otherwise, I did not see it.
Also, sometimes I expected a push but you pulled.
For example:
[her: thank you, nice talking to you as well ?
hum quite busy with my school but i have some days off
me: awesome
let’s do something on your days off? ?]
I would have expected you to do a push because she prioritized school over you. But you pulled.
[her: ahah it could be a great experience! what do you exactly want to do?
me: hey the best experience ?
let’s get to know you first]
I see the push pull here. Pulling “best experience”, then pushing “get to know you first.”
[me: can you do 730pm at X?
her: can i tell you tomorrow?
me: yep, ping me when you know ?]
I’d expect a push here before you tell her “yep”. Because she did not show eagerness to follow your plans.
Aight good read, notes:
———————————-
I ask for her phone, she says “what for”
That means she doesn’t want to be called, she’s setting a boundary, and is asking me to justify myself. If I reply “to use whatsapp” then Im communicating that I respect her desire not to be called, and Im a good boy playing by her rules.
So by sending “to listen to your voice” I am giving her what she explicitly doesn’t want, and being creepy. But there’s more
“To listen to your beautiful voice” injects my judgement on her voice, now Im the judge on what’s beautiful and not. But there’s more
“To listen to your beautiful voice (wink)”. The wink signals that I know perfectly what I am doing. She set a boundary and expected me to qualify myself and take her boundaries, I went in, pushed inside, gave her what she doesn’t want, and winked at her, all while calling her ‘beautiful’ with a wink, so am I being sarcastic? probably, does she actually have a dorky voice?
The following line “for whatsapp” now shows constraint and gives context for my previous move. Basically she tried to set a wall and I fucked her raw. This is why she replies ‘ahahahah” and was predictable. She’s turned on.
———————————-
Her: “hum quite busy with my school but i have some days off”
Me: Awesome / let’s do something on your days off
She’s offering both compliance (has days off) and a wall (busy).
Bottom Guy frame finds the wall and wants to crush it so you push.
Tog Guy frame finds the compliance and rewards it.
“Awesome”
Basically I ignore her walls, these are not my problem, but her problem
To which she replies again ‘hahah’
—————-
[her: ahah it could be a great experience! what do you exactly want to do?
me: hey the best experience ?
let’s get to know you first]
She shows compliance but then puts another trap for me to qualify myself, with that ‘what do you EXACTLY want to do’.
“hey the best experience” is pull, plus being cocky
“let’s get to know you first” is a wall for her wall, basically Im telling her that before she demands me to qualify myself we have to get to know HER better. Were gonna qualify her some more.
Then, the actual call to action does tie up the compliance and her mini shit test, by telling her EXACTLY what to do. You want precision? do EXACTLY this
“want to have a coffee on thursday at 4pm?”
The reason this is a question and not a ‘lets do X’ is Im switching her into showing compliance. I expect her compliance before doubling down. Im not going to set dates etc when she’s not in compliance mode, she has to say ‘yes’ first.
Her: “yes sounds good to me”
That’s compliance, and it’s rewarded
Me: perfect.
And that’s reward / leading / pull again
—————————
her: can i tell you tomorrow?
me: sure, ping me when you know ;-)
“I’d expect a push here before you tell her “yep”. Because she did not show eagerness to follow your plans.”
My line is the space, it’s IDGF. A push there would be a chase
You don’t ‘push’ to arrange things
The most battled zone was when I rescheduled the date and she said she was busy and didn’t offer a rain check. There
Ok, so could you in a way offer something that lets us know in general how to use push and pull when it comes to walls, openings and boundaries?
Like when there is compliance, we go for pull. When there is a wall, you did there go inside it, have fun messing with it, but then went back and offered a pull. And when the girl does a shit test or a beta trap, we push because that is not okay behavior.
How does this relate to setting frames? I am not talking about the metaframe of top guy, bottom guy. I am talking about “frame control”. I can see some of the answers to my questions implied, but better to get them clear and out in the open.
More on this thing:
“her: can i tell you tomorrow?
me: sure, ping me when you know ;-)”
After asking for her phone, Riv didn’t acknowledge that compliance and let a day pass, right before the day of the date. Riv had to cancel because he was busy. So here it starts:
“me: thanks cutie”
That’s the start of the new conversation, day before the date. And it’s a pull / flirt. An hour went by and she didn’t reply to it (waiting is important – she can reply with a ‘hello handsome’ and everything can take a different turn) so I moved into the resched.
“me: “can you meet later? i’ll have to work until 7pm tomorrow””
The plan was always to have a fuck date later, so why not move it to the same day.
“her: “oh i am not sure
i already have plans for the evening ?””
She’s not offering a raincheck. There are two ways you can go about it, you can acknowledge her game and point it out, or you can move past her
Moving past her would be “no worries, ping me when you’re free” which is ‘I don’t give a fuck’, thus attractive, and would make her come after me
But there’s enough drama in her response ‘I don’t know” and emoticon, enough to call it out first
Also – the trap is to take her seriously and accomodate to her, looking for another days. That would be ‘pushing against resistance”, say, she says she doesn’t know and is busy, you reply “next tuesday? busy “thursday?” busy “weekend?” busy “when please wheeen” and she goes silent. So we’re not playing that game, I call her bluff instead
“Me: bad girl
Me: looks like we’re not meant to see each other again :-O”
Which is the natural conclusion of her own state of mind. She gave me a riddle, I gave it back to her so she figures it out. Im not solving her shit.
“her: thats maybe a little exaggerated [laughter emoji, tears from eyes]”
She was very happy about my approach, which Im not changing
“Me: (wink)”
I know what Im doing – she knows what Im doing
“her: tell me when you will be free tomorrow, i will see if i can do smth!”
She’s back on track, but still has bait. “TELL ME” is a command, and her compliance is still conditional “see if I can do something”
But the wall is down, and she’s back on track. I go for her compliance
me: can you do 730pm at X?
See? again with a question mark. Normally you can tell girls what to do, but they need to be in ‘yes’ mode. This is a ‘ramp for the yes’, or a ‘ping for compliance’ again.
“her: can i tell you tomorrow?”
This means yes, but it has a trap, now the wall is the timing. You could start a new battle about getting the response now or tomorrow etc. But it has compliance on it, which I take
“me: yep, ping me when you know ?”
Plus it’s the “I don’t give a fuck either way (happy)” that I had prepared before calling on her bluff (which it was)
—
She tried on every instance to frame girl-prize man-chaser, and every time she tried, it reverted on her, then she showed compliance, and it was rewarded, she set walls, and it were crushed or brushed aside, she presented openings, and it were taken
That girl finished that night touching herself and came to the date DTF the next day.
The next text before the date was
her: good for tonight ?
Yummy.
Your analysis of the text convo was AWESOME!
Can you please analyze this convo I had some recently. I was being particularly beta with this girl because she is super delicate and shy. It turns out she is a virgin. She wants to go on a date too. She just turned 20.
Me: Hello
Her: Sorry I can’t be speaking now)
Her: I am not at home)
Me: Well when I can speak later maybe you are sleeping)
Me: We will see
Her: Oh, not tonight please
Her: I am babysitting my sister, I will not be able to talk afterwards
Her: We should speak by Whatsapp. If you wanna speak for an hour or so, we should arrange a conversation in advance, at least the day before. I mean we should know the day and exact time.
Me: You only have time on the weekend right?
Me: Send me a picture of you with your sister)
Me (Next Day): No selfie with little sister?
Her: No, only photos of her.
Me: You don’t like to take pictures of Yourself?
Me: Btw, happy valentine’s day)
Her: Thank you so much :)
Me: I like your face, super cute
Me: So never be shy to take pictures :)
Her: Happy Valentine’s Day to You too)
Me: We should celebrate it even if late when we are together :)
Her: Yes, this is a great idea to celebrate it together :))
Me: You are a brunette. Brunettes are smarter, right? lol
Her: Ahaha, nooooo:)
Me: You seem like a shy person.
Her: I am
Me: I’ll make you comfortable. You don’t have to talk a lot if you don’t want to.
Her: :) :) :) :x
Her: Thanks for understanding)
Me: Why are you single? It’s a surprise, I think you are wonderful :)
Her: I would say I am single but with options. This is not the same.
Her: Thanks, your words are incredibly warm)
Her: So we will understand each other.
Me: I am a warm person.
Me: Send me an ugly no make up selfie)) I’m sure you will feel more comfortable knowing I accept you and appreciate the way you are 100%
Me: Me courageous :D
Her: :(
Me: I don’t want you to feel shy with me.
Her: Ok, without makeup, in a robe at an apartment without repair
Her: :D
Me: An apartment without repair is a sad sight lol
Her: Sorry :D
Me (After a week): Did you miss me?
Her: ;-)
Her: I do not like texting too much. I am an introvert. This world is mainly created for extroverts so we have to adapt.
Me: I think you and me will have a lot of chemistry
Me: I’m excited to know you more.
Her: It’s nice to know)
Her: I look forward to celebrating the Valentine’s Day with you)
Me: I am very romantic. And i like hugging and intimacy a lot.
Her: I am very romantic too.
Her: But i like getting closer gradually
Me: I’m not in a hurry. I like taking my time. But I like your lips. So seeing you and not kissing you will be torture <3
Her: A kiss means a lot for me, time depends. If I am not ready, I can't force myself. I am sorry.
Me: No pressure of course.
Her: This is great, then I adore you)
Me: I'm really selective. But you're sexy. I find it hard to resist kissing you. But I'll do my best.
Me: O:)
Her: I will appreciate it a lot :)
Her: I am very selective too)
Her: We should speak by phone for an hour at least once before meeting I guess
Me: Are you trying to hear from my voice whether I am sleazy or a good guy? :))
Her: Well, I don't have such an ability honestly, but I have been trying to work on it.
Me: Did you have a boyfriend before?
Her: No, I didn't.
Me: That is okay. We will just know each over time and see how things go comfortably and slowly.
Her: Yes, I guess everything will be ok)
Her (Next day): Could you help me with one thing, please?
Me: What is it? :)
Her: Can you help me cut this picture in photoshop? I don't know how.
Me: Ok, but only if you send me at least 2 more pictures of you :)
Her: Don't you find it cruel to blackmail a person in need? :D
Me: It's fun :)
Her: :_(
Her:…
Her: Ok, I can take some
Me: Ok, I'll do it. The things I do for love ;)
Her: <3
Me: [Picture she wanted cut and sent]
Her: You did it just perfect
Her: [Many kiss emoticon]
Her: Thank you so much)
Me: Have a good day and if you need something tell me
Me: No blackmail
Her: :) :) :)
Her: I got it, I just couldn't help teasing you
Me: It's fine. I like it.
BV – interesting text exchange, you’re chasing hard, but offering relationship sweet sweet oh my sweet relationship. But hey she’s a girl with options! options options! but hey you’re working so hard…
I see :-D
So at what point do you have sex with her?
[So at what point do you have sex with her?]
Not sure. She’s not a “main girl”. So whenever I have downtime, I’ll go on some romantic date with her.
I might wait 3 months or whatever. A virgin blue eyes Russian notch is worth the sweet sweet relationship talk to me lol
My first virgin. And my ideal blue eyes slim Russian kind of girl who is also no drama and no materialistic.
Yohami, if would be very beneficial if you analyzed the convos line by line to show the beta bait, what was done right and wrong, and how you would have answered based on your model. :)
Yohami, I also was doing my best to calibrate to the girl.
The virgin girl was super shy. She was just excited and smiling when I picked her up but almost said no words, I was doing all the talk, then gave me her number. So for a virgin 20 yo shy girl who seemed to me to be k-selected, I brought k-selected sweet relationship game.
The other one is a strong bubbly American girl who is extroverted and dressed sexy and is used to male attention and in dominating men. So I was more “myself” Top Guy as much as I could with her.
I believe that if I did the Top Guy dominant with the virgin girl she’ll run away because it would be too intense. For such a pretty Russian girl to never had a boyfriend and to be virgin at 20, and to not talk when I picked her up means she’s too introverted so I bring my “confident beta” introvert game to the arena.
The 20 yo Russian no-BF virgin girl sent me this:
—
Her: ;) I am happy
Me: I’m happy too <3
—
So now I might be "progressing" from the wrong frame. It is working.
What lessons could I learn from this that lead me to a Top Guy frame?
Because this leads me to believing that being K-Selected sweet "confident beta" freaking works with wonderful virginal sweet girls.
“Because this leads me to believing that being K-Selected sweet “confident beta” freaking works with wonderful virginal sweet girls.”
Any success with the wrong frame reinforces the wrong frame. What you’re lacking is the reference point. You fear that being ‘top guy’ may scare her off so you offer ‘licking butt bottom guy’ and she seems to react well, she’s not scared! this works!
Compared to what exactly?
You could be making out and or / banging her already (which is why I ask when are you going to have sex with her, do you know when?). Instead you’re doing her favors and she’s using you as a male friend which you’re making happen with all the rapport.
With the american girl you’re going for fights and stuff. With both you’re doing a lot of frame clashing.
When are you going to bang them?
Where’s the call to action
This conversation is different. The girl is 28 years old American girl, experienced and wants to control the frame. I came from more “take it or leave it”. I might have lost her.
Me: Hi
Her: Hello
Me: Save my name: BlueValentine
Her: Will do
Her: Why me?
Me: I like your curves
Her: I am looking for a serious relationship. All relationships are to be mutually benefiting.
Me: It’s ok. If I don’t find what I am looking for with you, I don’t mind it. I like to live life on my terms :)
Her: Are you looking for a fun relationship that provides no benefits to the woman?
Me: ??
Me: You presuppose that men get the better end of the deal. I don’t believe that.
Her: I am clear.
Me: As I said I know what I want and if it’s not something you’re interested in, that is fine :)
Her: Ok
Me: I like honesty and clarity.
Her: I value myself. I don’t date for the shear fun of it.
Her: Having this discussion over texting isn’t beneficial. I actually dislike texting.
Me: Stop bringing up this subject. I don’t enjoy it. Talk normally.
Her: If I feel the need to talk about something, I will..
Me (Next day): What book have you read this year? I won’t like it if you said “none” :)
Her: No book out of the pleasure… I spend my free time preparing for the GRE graduate school admission test…
Me: Ok
Her: You find it easy to tell women what to do… As if you expect me to follow orders
Me: Nope. I state what i want. You do what you want :) I’m super clear in what I want. My respect for women is high but my respect for myself is even higher.
Her: k
Her (Next day): Good morning
Me: I like it when you message me :)
Her: Uh ok
Her: Do you have pics of you to share
Me: This is me in pajamas. No make up.
Me: :)
Her: Ok
Her: [Pictures of herself]
Me: What color are your eyes?
Her: Hazel
Me: My new year resolution was to have a tall curvy American girl. I like this coincidence, so far away from the US.
Her: Quite the coincidence.
Me: It’s good. I like it when things go my way. When they don’t, it’s good too. It makes me more of a man.
Her: ic
Me: Do you have a picture where you smile? Not just duck face (:
Her: [Video of her smiling and talking sent]
Me: I like your voice. It’s very feminine. You would be great at doing radio.
Her: I have been told. Been playing around with the idea of doing a Youtube channel.
Me: I encourage that. I like having a successful girl.
Her: We will see. I am not sure about the content.
Me (Next Day): You’re exotic to me. It’s hot.
Me: Btw, if you like vanilla sex, you shouldn’t be involved with me. i like hair pulling and spanking and choking and other such dominant behaviors in bed. This makes me truly happy.
Her: Ok
Her: I don’t do anything with blood or urine
Her: Not my cup of tea
Her: And I don’t like spitting
Me: Ok
Me: I can’t promise you no spit. I’ll probably spit in your ass during anal. It’s good.
Her: You’re very blunt, aren’t you?
Her: I don’t want anything physical right away.
Her: If you want us to get to that level, you should shave your beard.
Her: I don’t like facial hair.
Me: No.
Her: I need to head to the gym anyway.
Her (Next day): Whatsup
Her: Are you free this weekend?
Me: It’s fine.
Her: I’m normally free on weekends.
Her: But not this weekend.
Her: I have to do volunteer work with kids.
Me: It’s ok. Let’s keep in touch.
Me: Do you want me to come over and see how you work with kids?
Her: I would be more comfortable the following weekend.
Her: Kids gossip and talk.
Me: I like this.
Her: Ok
Me (At night): With such a small waist and round ass, do you find it hard to buy jeans?
Her: It depends on the jeans
Me: You and me will spend whole days fucking. You turn me on so much.
Me: Good night
Her: You’re not exactly subtle are you
Her (After an hour): You telling me that we are going to fuck before our first date… is a bit odd.
Me: I am 100% radically honest :)
Me: I’m a man. The things I’ll do to you…
Her: I guess you can keep these thoughts to yourself.
Her: I don’t want to feel that you’re doing to pressure me
Me: I am the definition of laid back
Me: Whether it happens or not, doesn’t matter to me. What matters is I am clear and go for what I want :)
Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.
Me: No.
Her: Personal grooming is important. I shave my whole body. All I ask is you shave the beard. Beards turn me off.
Me: I like it.
Her: [Send a pic of herself in the gym]
Her: If you shave your beard, I will send you a pic of myself in lingerie.
Me: No.
Her: I ask you for a small thing. What then about big things. You say No.
Me: No means no ;)
Her: Fine. Then no sex.
Me: It’s ok. We can be just friends.
Her: You want me to friendzone you?
Me: Not shaving it.
Her: Please
Her: Major turn off
Her: :_(
Me: It’s ok. We can be just friends :)
Her: Don’t believe in facial grooming?
Me: No.
Me: I like how my beard looks.
Her: Please
Me: No. Feel free to try, but you won’t succeed.
Her: I can’t kiss you when I see your beard. Seeing it is a big turn off.
Me: With age, you’ll lose your eyesight. Then you’ll be a happy girl with me <3
Me: Feel free to share your thoughts. I don't have to do more than listen, though.
Me: It is ok. Nothing has to happen between us. We can go on a friend-date. I think you're a cool and interesting person <3
Me: Really, let's just be friends.
Her: Over shaving some hair?
Her: K
Me: K
Me: Busy now
Her (Next day): Please shave your beard
Her: It is very important
Me: No
Her: Ok
Her:…
Her: I'll shave it while you're sleeping
Me: Take care
Her: Try it
Me: I already tried it. I like my beard.
Her: Please
Me: No.
Her: Please, please. Or no beard.
Me: I shave my butt though :D
Me: I don't like butt hair
Me: I like your pussy baby smooth shaved
Me: Hair is a turn off on women
Her: Exactly. That's how I feel about your beard.
Me: No.
Me: I'm your friend. Friends don't have that jurisdiction. Hahaha
Her: This is stupid
Her: Bye
Me: Bye
** Now no more new messages for 2 days. I don't mind, she's sexy though. I will not message first.
I have a date tonight with the 20 yo Russian no-BF virgin girl, but she said she has very little time because she has to return to her family after our date.
So this was the texting:
Me: Good morning
Her: Good morning :)
Me: Today? :)
Her: Yes [Devil Emoji]
Me (after some hours): I like it when you [Devil Emoji]
Her: :-)
Her: It’s good to know [Angel Emoji]
Ok, if I understood this correctly and said in other words:
You are the king, you have many girls. So your default is pushing first to screen the girl. If she does something that follows what you are looking for / what you like, you pull by telling her what you want and giving her space to please you. You don’t force her to do it because that’s how she will screen herself out or in.
And if she does something you do not like, you push her. It is a push showing her that is not what you like, and she has the space to either go away or to try to recover and get into your good graces. If she does, you give her an opportunity to please you more and to be liked more by you. If she doesn’t, there are many “easier” and more friendly girls to get. Is that a good explanation of it?
Btw, a lot of the “PUAs”, like BlackDragon and Tyler etc say that to get into a long term relationship, you have to tone down the “king” behavior and add some beta compliance to your woman. In your experience with long term relationships, is that right?
You actually explained in this post some stuff I have been struggling to understand for a long time. And I got how the bottom guy frame is what creates paradoxes in game that fuck us up!
Yohami, I really hope you write a book. And if it helps, you might do some “Ask Me Anything” page somewhere, like here or on Reddit, and just make the book the answers to what the people here will ask, everything they ever wondered about game.
Also, since we are doing Daygame which you do not agree with. What could we do to display Top Guy Frame in Daygame even before we open our mouths? Any ideas?
Like you said, a big problem is I had some success from the bottom guy frame which fucked me up. I was able to get girlfriends acting like the sweet safe bottom guy (they turn into drama filled fucked up relationships though). So acting from a Top Guy frame without the feedback loop is like jumping into the abyss.
One of the biggest problems we have from Daygame, and that Nash shares too, is that girls just are not that proactive during the texting before the first date. And fresh leads are the best leads. So even if I am not in the mood to text, I feel I have to because otherwise nothing will happen, there will be no forward progress, so our natural state is pushing forward which is bottom guy behavior no doubt, we are chasing progress in the interaction. How do we deal with that? Or should we focus more on training top guy frame, and while we make it more and more natural not care whether the women respond or not because top guy frame training is more valuable than pussy. Is that good?
I really loved that section you wrote about how Top Guy is already the product in demand by women, they desire it and touch themselves thinking about it. So when we show up we are not telemarketers talking to cold leads trying to convince them. We are talking to a hungry eager market who gets exciting at any hint of a Top Guy.
I really wish you’d write a big section in a book all about Top Guy, and giving different situations so we “get it” in more specific terms. Not just some general abstract conception.
@Days..
Props on calling out bullshit on a lot of generally accepted ideas of the community.
And recognizing that every guy is at a different point in the journey and he can only see the peak he is climbing right now, not the mountains beyond. He will think about climbing those mountains later when they are in his line of sight.
Thinking back, I think it’s roughly a 50/50 split as to which girls wanted to love me and leave me and those that wanted more.
I can’t say as to what the commonalities were between each group. I don’t think it had to do with the quality of the experience.
In regards to those who say that people are more honest after sex, I’ve noticed a significant proportion that will test you after sex to see if you’re still an indifferent player or are or already feeling an emotional attachment, even a tiny hint of it.
It’s quite subtle but any questions about the future or ‘deep’ topics should be shrugged off. I’m not talking about “Are we going to see each other again?” rather something like “What are your plans for the summer?”.
The testing never stops. Never.
Here’s Ben Shapiro not understanding that the guy he’s criticizing looks like someone who’s just killed a monster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeoOq-qC8-Y
While the girl giggles and says he ‘looks good’
Yohami, before someone becomes king, having a top guy frame, he’s not a king. So when he starts, he doesn’t have a top guy frame. So is it by luck that he makes it to be kind because he starts from a bottom guy frame? Or top guys starts first believing they are top guy inside for whatever random lucky reason then they make it a reality? So top guys are delusional first then they make the feedback loop reinforce that positively more and more?
Yohami, could you also talk about Beta Bait? Each time someone “falls” for a beta bait, does it really do huge damage, or is it more gradual so if you fall for some and overcome some, you’ll still be ahead?
And if you defined beta bait in text or even in convo, that would be much appreciated.
Yohami, since you are married and wealthy, how does a Top Guy deal with money with girls?
I ask this because as someone going into a Top Guy frame that implies me being very ambitious and planning to be rich.
So is taking care of your woman financially a “beta bucks” thing? Or can it be Top Guy?
And when you are early dating a girl and you are wealthy, is buying her anything a big No, it makes you bottom guy? Or can a Top Guy buy some gifts for a girl he is dating or some expensive lingerie to enjoy together or take her on trips he enjoys? Or is spending money on her, especially before sex, a big top guy frame breaker? I always wondered about this because the normal PUA advice is PAY FOR NOTHING, NADA, ZERO.
You input on this will be much appreciated Yohami.
[When are you going to bang them?
Where’s the call to action]
Could you explain this more?
I don’t have time for dates this week until the weekend. So I don’t think about a CTA until that is nearer.
Is a CTA needed all the time? Do you believe the purpose of texting is to get her out on a date rather than doing this kind of banter?
This is why I took the time to write those texts by hand. I knew that you, Yohami, will shed light on many weaknesses that are beneficial to me and to all those reading.
For example, the American girl frame clashing. What should I have done instead? I can’t agree.
Slow down your process and look at what you’re doing. Closely.
Do you feel like you are ‘working those leads’?
Ok, what is the proper definition of “working those leads”? It depends on what is possible to achieve.
All I am doing is keeping in touch until a date. And it is about setting the proper expectation. PUA theory says you can’t do much through text, the purpose of texting is to get to a date. Nothing more can be achieved through text. So I am keeping in touch until it’s time to go on a date.
That’s why I say look close: what are you doing exactly? to what end?
Dude, get your book out soon, I personally will be the first and best client. :)
I guess I don’t really know what I am doing. I just react to what the girls say and do, which is bottom guy frame.
How did you learn all this stuff about texting Yohami?
Did you spend a long time analyzing your own texting with girls?
Has nothing to do with texting: that’s the same stuff that happens in real life convo: no difference! there are 10 back and forths from hi to making out, give or take. Sometimes less. Even less distance from making out to sex.
Let’s frame that differently.
The chat from Riv’s was also a girl he picked with Daygame. That chat is the whole conversation from the first text to the actual date.
What did I do that you don’t, and what are you doing that I don’t?
Is there a purpose in my conversation, is there a purpose in yours? if so what are these? what do you see?
Ok. I noticed you’re almost always having a CTA.
Ok, if you can’t see a girl until after a week, do you just not text her? Will it just be fine that the girl doesn’t hear from me for a week and then I set up a date?
It’s not just the CTA
You’re going for rapport, Im breaking rapport
You’re going for rapport so you get shit tested. Along with getting shit tested you start roleplaying that you’re in a relationship with them. Which they reply with more shittesting. Then you play to validate yourself, then you roleplay to make them validate themselves. Sometimes they do (good), but you also validate yourself to them all the time (bad). All the back and forth leads to nothing, so it’s all wasted frame clash. All is amounting to nothing.
This stuff is good practice to some degree but all amounts to nothing.
When are you going to bang them?
Don’t you have something better to use your time into?
I would text these girls, flirt some, take them out, and bang them. While you’d still be going back and forth trying to crop their photoshop pictures.
The american girl has shown she’s DTF more than once (she’s also roleplaying you into some form of relationship). Both girls have shown compliance a few times and giving you ways to take them. You are not taking them. Your own lack of action makes you lose these girls.
But I guess eventually you land one like that.
So stop and think what you want out of it, then be congruent with that.
That above is the first step where you build the rest.
Ok, let me explain to you what I am thinking:
I am setting up the proper expectations to not get into a messed up thing later. Because I do not believe I can control the frame once it starts the wrong way.
So I am making sure the girl knows I love rough sex. I am making sure the girls gets used to submission. When the girl says something I like, I encourage it (For example, when the American girl texted me first in the morning, I said I like that). When she does something I do not like, I say no. But if i feel she is right in her objection, I explain why I did it.
That American girl, for example, starting a talk about how she is looking for a serious relationship not fun, I don’t think it would have served me to stay silent. Because a frame that you stay silent about is a frame that is automatically set.
Or the virgin girl asking me for help. We didn’t go on a first date yet. So if I told her to go fuck herself, I would have lost her. So I made it a conditional agreement. I said yes but only if you send me 2 pictures. It’s the hoop theory from Mystery: when she puts a hoop, i create one for her to jump through first before I jump through hers.
Should I just ignore them hoes and just set dates? That Virgin girl was clear from the beginning she wants to talk before a date. So I tell her FU?
Ok Yohami, I love this because I appreciate learning when I am wrong.
[You’re going for rapport, Im breaking rapport]
Could you please step back and explain going for rapport and breaking rapport?
Because in your Riv text, I see it as neutral. Rarely is there breaking rapport. So can you explain going for rapport and breaking rapport so that I can see it in your Riv text and in mine?
And when a girl shows complicance, what do you do? You go directly for scheduling a date?
Thank you Yohami.
I’d rather improve, and get no pussy yet become a Top Guy than get laid from the wrong frame.
Like you said, eventually it all leads to Top Guy. Succeeding from Bottom Guy frame just adds many layers of bullshit to take out.
Improving means MORE pussy, never less :-)
Yohami, it is hard to get my head around the specifics of a Top Guy.
With the American girl I thought I was being a Top Guy. I didn’t care about fucking her too much. I set my own boundaries, did not compromise myself for pussy. I told her what to do and what to stop doing. And yes, it led to a constant frame clash, but I thought I was doing Top Guy right. I did not think it was a Bottom Guy interaction because I was not using it as a technique: I put myself first, I considered myself higher than her, and I told her what to do and did not care whether she likes me or not.
It was as Braddock used to say: Respect before popularity.
So what was missing there to become a Top Guy? More calibration? But that comes from experience doing Top Guy right, right?
With the american girl the most “top guy thing you did” was what you said right before she opened you again and asked for pictures.
“So what was missing there to become a Top Guy? More calibration? But that comes from experience doing Top Guy right, right?”
Yes.
1) Know what you want and go for it
2) Stop validating to her
3) Reward compliance
4) Punish non compliance
She’s giving you plenty of opportunities to take her an you’re not moving.
She’s throwing plenty of shit your way and every time you validate yourself or go to a frame clash.
You’re not rewarding compliance (did a couple times, not as a rule)
You’re not punishing non compliance (instead you push more, as in pushing to get it in)
Yohami, if there is one big thing I should be mindful to stop doing in text, what is it?
And if you could explain it clearly and simply I would appreciate it.
Words like “stop going for rapport” is too abstract. Can you give some examples so I get it, please?
I can break down your two conversations but that would take a hundred pages. Stick to the basics man.
The two girls are examples of chase and push from the bottom. Every two lines its a new battlefield – and no wars are won.
The american girl is DTF and you’re still not moving and not taking her, instead you’re fighting about your beard.
Start moving and fucking girls and stop wasting your time dealing with obstacles you’re putting on the way yourself. Get out of your own way.
[there are 10 back and forths from hi to making out, give or take. Sometimes less. Even less distance from making out to sex.]
– Yohami
Could you please give an ideal Top Guy example of such back and forths, with some beta baits thrown in, with explanation of what you’re thinking in each line?
I think that is the most valuable thing you could do because when we understand the ideal situation and the thinking behind it we can always aim for that.
[With the american girl the most “top guy thing you did” was what you said right before she opened you again and asked for pictures.
“So what was missing there to become a Top Guy? More calibration? But that comes from experience doing Top Guy right, right?”
Yes.
1) Know what you want and go for it
2) Stop validating to her
3) Reward compliance
4) Punish non compliance
She’s giving you plenty of opportunities to take her an you’re not moving.
She’s throwing plenty of shit your way and every time you validate yourself or go to a frame clash.
You’re not rewarding compliance (did a couple times, not as a rule)
You’re not punishing non compliance (instead you push more, as in pushing to get it in)]
Ok, Yohami, could you take that convo as an example, take a section of it, show where I am validating myself (explaining what that means), showing where I could have rewarded compliance and how I was pushing rather than punishing non compliance? I thought I was punishing.
Btw, you can use both convos for your new book, not need to even give me credit. I am rewarded by learning. So if you take some time to use parts of them as examples to explain what you mean, then many people will get it better because it becomes more concrete.
Validating yourself means you play a game where she’s the judge and you dance to please her. Which is basically your whole conversation.
In some instances you lead and set the pace – which quickly becomes in she judging you and then frame clashing, then it escalates and all the energy is consumed.
Then you resume with more chasing.
So stop all of that
—————-
“Her: Why me?
Me: I like your curves”
Validated yourself to her, which lets her set the rules now:
“Her: I am looking for a serious relationship. All relationships are to be mutually benefiting.”
Then you try to frame clash that with your own, and nobody wins.
————
This was a good line:
“Nope. I state what i want. You do what you want :) I’m super clear in what I want. My respect for women is high but my respect for myself is even higher.”
The problem is you are not acting the part. “I state what I want”
You have not stated what you want from her. There’s no call to action. Zero.
But that line is ‘top guy’ enough that next day she’s opening you and sending your her pictures and ignoring all the other non top guy stuff that is going on. That’s how powerful it is
————-
“Me: I like your voice. It’s very feminine. You would be great at doing radio.
Her: I have been told. Been playing around with the idea of doing a Youtube channel.
Me: I encourage that. I like having a successful girl.
Her: We will see. I am not sure about the content.”
Kiss her butt once and again, she ignores it, you keep going
————-
“Me: Btw, if you like vanilla sex, you shouldn’t be involved with me. i like hair pulling and spanking and choking and other such dominant behaviors in bed. This makes me truly happy.
Her: Ok
Her: I don’t do anything with blood or urine”
Your text is shit because you should be banging her already, instead you’re talking about banging. But see – she shows compliance. You put your rules, she puts hers, that means she’s in. What in the world are you waiting for?
You think this is about chit chatting
————-
Because you ignore the fact that she is IN, she keeps roleplaying about making rules, so you take the hint. Instead of taking the hint you engage in a fight about the rules
“Her: I don’t want anything physical right away.
Her: If you want us to get to that level, you should shave your beard.
Her: I don’t like facial hair.”
See? she’s already talking past the sex, it’s going to happen, just some checkmarks. This is just distraction. She’s giving you a field to play on. She’s yours, instead you get all raveled in the details
“Me: No.:”
So she leaves
“Her: I need to head to the gym anyway.”
——————
“Her (Next day): Whatsup
Her: Are you free this weekend?”
Do you understand she is opening you now because she wants to fuck?
What the fuck are you doing?
You showed one INCH of top guy in ONE line and now she’s opening you and asking for your schedule. What are you doing in return?
“Me: It’s ok. Let’s keep in touch.”
Wut.
“Me: Do you want me to come over and see how you work with kids?”
You offer some non-sexual company.
———–
“Me (At night): With such a small waist and round ass, do you find it hard to buy jeans?”
This is rapport seeking. Do you have a point?
“Me: You and me will spend whole days fucking. You turn me on so much.”
Yet you’re missing all the cues. Here you’re starting to go past the point
“Her: You’re not exactly subtle are you
Her (After an hour): You telling me that we are going to fuck before our first date… is a bit odd.”
Which she notices – there’s your shit test. Are you top guy, or odd guy?
“Her: I don’t want to feel that you’re doing to pressure me”
Are you pulling or pushing?
“Me: I am the definition of laid back”
Are you? that’s you validating yourself to her again. Everytime she adopts judge, you validate to her. So the magic will wear off.
———–
“Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”
She’s back pinging you to have sex, “easy and quick”, and here you go for the frame clash again
“Me: No.”
Or, what the fuck are you doing.
————————–
So the frame is off all the time, but notice how an inch of ‘top guy’ was enough to make her DTF and chase you for a couple days.
[“Me: You and me will spend whole days fucking. You turn me on so much.”
Yet you’re missing all the cues. Here you’re starting to go past the point]
Could you explain what you mean with this? Especially about going past the point, what point?
And how would you answer these? And why?
[“Her: I don’t want anything physical right away.
Her: If you want us to get to that level, you should shave your beard.
Her: I don’t like facial hair.”]
[“Her: I don’t want to feel that you’re doing to pressure me”]
[“Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”]
Yohami, the thing is you can see multiple patters because of so much experience. So what you see is not personally obvious to me.
For example,
[“Me (At night): With such a small waist and round ass, do you find it hard to buy jeans?”
This is rapport seeking. Do you have a point?]
I just though of her shape. I like videos of girls on Youtube that find it hard to put jeans. I think it is sexy. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV4ztNQPfDw
[“Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”
“Me: No.”]
I really have no interest in shaving my beard. I honestly like it and will not shave it just to fuck some girl.
[“Me: You and me will spend whole days fucking. You turn me on so much.”]
This is me filtering for whether she is a low sex drive girl. If that scares her off, then I am avoiding a low sex drive girl.
[“Her: I don’t want to feel that you’re doing to pressure me”
“Me: I am the definition of laid back”]
When I speak, I am very laid back. So I thought “Oh, text might convey more pressure than I mean” so I said I am laid back because if this was spoken it would be softer than written, less pressure.
—
Ok, what is the mindset that will fix any validating to the girl? How do I not validate?
Because as you can see, my only two “tools” are either validation or frame clash. What is there else that I can use to neither validate nor frame clash? And what is the mindset behind it?
“Could you explain what you mean with this? Especially about going past the point, what point?”
The point of her arousal – you’re escalating higher than she’s prepared to go for right now (but she’s still DTF)
“And how would you answer these? And why?”
I would have taken her out already – she turned into a YES girl the moment she opened you and started sending pics. It’s your turn to take her. How? take her out. And bang her.
“I really have no interest in shaving my beard. I honestly like it and will not shave it just to fuck some girl.”
Fucking which girl? you’re only talking about fucking and not doing it, and fighting about stuff.
That’s the whole point: What is stopping you from actually fucking her?
“This is me filtering for whether she is a low sex drive girl. If that scares her off, then I am avoiding a low sex drive girl.”
You are not filtering anything. What is stopping YOU?
“Ok, what is the mindset that will fix any validating to the girl?”
The ‘top guy’ mindset :-)
Why are you validating to her? why are you taking her as your judge? is she above you or below you? who is leading, you or her?
“How do I not validate?”
By not validating / by turning it on her when needed.
———————
Stop all the mental masturbation, including the text masturbation, this is where stuff like BlackDragon applies because you’re offtrack, and need to get on track.
That means more action and less bullshit.
Ask this girl out and fuck her. The same for the ‘virgin’. Do that 20 times. Worry less about chats.
Ok, so all my focus through text should be to get the girls out on a date, that is the main and full focus, not any chit chat or getting to know each other etc?
Yes.
Thanks. I hope someday you will write a Top Guy manifesto, like a big book all about Top Guy frame, top guy texting, top guy dating and top guy living.
That would then be all the theory we need, and the 10X focus is on real life application.
As you know almost all PUA advice is from bottom guy frame, that is why it’s so great that you share Top Guy info.
I think that will be the result of all the convos – gotta make all this work amount to something ;-)
[“Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”
“Me: No.”]
How is this not Top Guy? I put a huge wall, boundary for her to push against it, making her bottom girl lol
I showed I am willing to frame clash and lose her in the process to stand for what I want.
Her: Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.
Me: We’ll see. When are you free? I’ll take you out
Compare.
The difference here is that she is playing a game:
“Her: Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”
Here’s what shes actually saying:
“Her: Shave that beard. It is easy and quick. [Then we may have sex]”
The ‘shave that beard’ is the wall. This is what you don’t care about.
“easy and quick / we may have sex”
That’s the part that you want, this is what you act on.
You ‘don’t crash on walls’ you ‘go for the doors’. Check my response.
“Me: We’ll see. When are you free? I’ll take you out”
“We’ll see” I address the wall she set, but I put it aside, Im not interested. Ultimately if I shave it or not will be my choice, and not something that I do or stop doing to bang her. So what Im interested on is the [we may have sex] part, to what I do reply:
“When are you free? I’ll take you out”
Thats one fucking single line and the whole thing is a problem of the past.
That’s the difference between pushing through her walls trying to make holes on them, or actually using the doors and escalating.
And it’s like this the whole dance. “easy”
This was actually brilliant and well explained. And connects to what you wrote in other comments about not crashing against walls and going for doors.
“Her (Next day): Shave that beard. It is easy and quick.”
Bottom guy: I’ll shave my beard! want me to shave my legs too??? anything else you want me to do? how am I doing??
Middle guy: No
Top guy: We’ll see. Let’s go out.
Yohami, something I always wondered about: I am a calm relaxed guy, do I have to be high energy like those RSD guys to be Top Guy? Because supposedly huge passion for life is Top Guy, but I can be elegantly and relaxedly passionate, without being all jumping around and yelling and shit.
Yes, you can be top guy and calm.
[I think that will be the result of all the convos – gotta make all this work amount to something ;-)]
If you need any help with convos, let me know. :)
Ok, here is a convo for you to maybe use in your book, Yohami, since it’s different. This girl is a musician, cute but super grumpy. She’s a great musician though which is very sexy to me.
Her: :)
Me: I like it when you are sweet. It is good behavior. :)
Her: Ha. It happens very rarely
Me: No. With me it will happen often. It pleases me when you are sweet :x
Her: :)
Me: You are not so bad.
Her: I am pleased :)
Me (Next Day): Your make up reminds me of those russian dolls.
Her: I am not a russian doll! It is a russian symbol! Never associate me with anything Russian!
Me: Be cool.
Me: But I understand and I apologize if for some reason I offended you.
Me: If you hate me someday you can stop talking to me :) I am my own best friend so I am never lonely :)
Her: Today is a bad day. That’s all. Don’t make problem.
Me: No problem. I am cool. :)
Me (Next day): You are an interesting girl. Sometimes you are so sweet and other times you become like a tiger ready to bite :) It is okay, if you bite me, I’ll just die.
Her: I bite with full power
Me: Maybe I will like it :)
Me (Next day): [Send a picture of a guy and a girl kissing]
Me: Let’s take a picture like that, you and me :)
Her: Today I am a tiger
Her: I had a hard day and I am very tired
Me: (Tired emoji)
Me (Next day): Send a picture of a serious angry man
Her: :)
Me: You like to be disciplined. I will. :)
Her: Is that so?
Me: Yes. it’s fun.
Her: You can try.
Me: I do not try. I succeed.
Me (A week later): Were you kidnapped? lol
Her: Sorry. I was busy.
Me: Be a good sweet girl when we meet or I’ll punish you.
Her: (Thinking emoji)
** Now for a week when I don’t text her, she doesn’t text back. This is an example of a girl that shows some willingness but if I do not pursue nothing happens.
Correcting this:
Me (Next day): [Send a picture of a serious angry man]
That’s what I did, I sent a picture of the face of an angry man.
Same issues as before – all chase, chasing rapport, validating to her etc.
“This is an example of a girl that shows some willingness but if I do not pursue nothing happens.”
Nope this is a girl you push away by playing bottom guy from the start. What is in this for her?
What does she want?
What is she telling you that she wants?
What is she reacting positively to?
Do you know what she wants?
When you contact her, what is your motive? why are you doing the things you do? what do you think she’ll do on response? etc.
Basically you’re offering her bottom guy and asking her to be your master.
And missing all the cues, there’s plenty.
(I don’t know if I’m allowed to write in another language in this blog [which, by the way, I found today and it’s amazing], so please let me know and I’ll delete my comment or post it in English. I just wanted to tell Yohami (who’s Argentine, like me) he’s been fantastic with his replies.
Chabón, ¿sos Buda o qué? El tiempo que invertiste en ayudar a este loco no tiene precio. Te banco, y se nota que tenés muy buen manejo de la teoría (y de la práctica supongo que también; le debés sacar punta). Hace unos cuantos años volví al mundo del gaming. Nunca fui muy bueno, pero más que nada porque nunca terminé de animarme a abrir sets, como un pelotudo. Ahora estoy volviendo y me empezó a picar el bicho del daygame en vez de tanto MM y demás. ¿Algún consejo común y corriente para arrancar? ¿Vos hacés daygame también? Estoy teniendo mucho más éxito ahora con las minas porque “maté varios monstruos” en mi vida (tengo un laburo buenísimo, estabilidad, auto, tranquilidad mental, vida social, etc.) y creo que las minas se dan cuenta, pero me gustaría aumentar la cantidad de minas exponiéndome más a la calle, al contacto.
Abrazo, y seguí con la buena onda que da gusto leerte (a vos y a los demás).
Dardo
Dardo… it’s cool this time. Please keep it to English from now on. Your English doesn’t need to be perfect… but I want us to be able to follow along.
Thanks.
Hey, Nash, thanks for the reply. I’ll write in English from now on; actually I’m an English > Spanish translator, so I can manage :)
Thanks for the blog. Really amazing the work you’re putting into this. I’ve never ever did daygame, but I’m starting to think about it more and more. Thing is, as long as I remain here and not in the street opening sets, it’ll only be a dream. I was more of a night guy, but I never felt too comfortable trying to talk to somebody at night, not able to hear shit, with a couple of beers in my mind, etc. I always thought of myself as being way more interesting when I have time to talk to somebody (though I consider myself to be a nice looking guy, maybe 7/8, I guess). Anyways, I’ll be here reading and commenting; I just discovered the blog yesterday.
Hugs!
Dardo
I used Google Translate on this comment from Dardo, and here are the results:
Chabon, are you Buddha or what? The time you spent helping this crazy man is priceless. You bank, and it shows that you have very good theory management (and practice I suppose that too, you must get the point). A few years ago I returned to the world of gaming. I was never very good, but more than anything because I never finished encouraging me to open sets, like a asshole. Now I’m coming back and I started to bite the bug of the daygame instead of so much MM and so on. Any common advice to start? Do you do daygame too? I am having much more success now with the mines because “I killed several monsters” in my life (I have a terrific laburo, stability, self, peace of mind, social life, etc.) and I think the girls realize, but I would like to increase the amount of girls exposing me more to the street, to the contact.
Embrace, and I continued with the good vibes that gives pleasure to read you (to you and to the others).
Dardo
Go and do it and see what works for you. You’ll eventually have to face whatever prevented you from opening many sets (on night I assume).
My recommendation: go out 4 times a week and talk / befriend everybody, learn to be good at being social. Go into situations that scare you and master them. Also do the same during day when you’re not going out. Talk to every girl you find attractive, befriend any man you find interesting, antagonize anyone you don’t like, and push all this until you’re uncomfortable enough all the time you stop caring.
That will push you further than focusing on one single aspect of game.
Yeah, I’m from Argentina, and yeah, “las minas están locas” (girls are crazy).
From reading your comment here and every other comment I found on this post, I sense you’re a natural or you’ve worked hard to become an alpha male, not giving a fuck and considering yourself as the prize, the hero that does the killing, which is what always interested me the most.
I always believed that if you can become your best self, you start radiating a light that will attract all the moths to you. I had this happened to me sometime (I think now more than ever) and I started to push the boundaries of what I thought was “good game”. I’m starting to not give a fuck about what girls think if I say or do something, but I think that I still have a little seed of insecurity in me, because sometimes I feel it when things don’t work as planned. I am, however, focusing on me: work, health, body, mind, friends, social circle, family, etc., and not working too much on game. Maybe, if I can also include game in that set of things I’m working at now, I’ll be even better.
Thanks!
Dardo – also assuming you’re in Argentina you’ve got no excuse not do nightgame :-)
Las minas estan locas.
Hi Nash,
Excellent article. I feel as if we have the same approach when it comes what we want from women right now. I don’t want a girlfriend as well but I seem to prefer having sex with a girl multiple times to get a feel of her. I prefer the date model over the fast route in general because:
1 I sometimes feel as if there is no genuine connection with the fast route.. just a manufactured type of chemistry which sort of turns the girl into an algorithm. One is not allowing enough time for the dynamic between you two to turn unique. It sounds a bit chody but It gets boring because you see women as just sex objects. Just some buttons you have to press in perfect order to get the lay. In this aspect, the game is reduced to just a science and loses the “art” part of it.
2 I’m sometimes left craving for more from the same girl. I know some people will argue that you can just find and focus your energy on another sexual conquest, but it feels lacking not having the opportunity to connect with the same girl repeatedly. I feel like having sex with the same girl at least 2-3 times feels optimal to me without having to feel like something is missing in terms of getting to know and making a genuine connection with the girl. I hope people don’t mistake this as oneitis, as I don’t feel attached to a single person. I just crave a woman’s own style of presenting herself and her femininity. I want to take it in as much as I can before we part ways.
_______________________________________________
I want to share a story that’s relevant. I also got a new lay recently. 19 years old university student. The surprising fact is that in the first date there was nothing. nada. not even a single kiss. but strangely by the third date, my dick was already inside of her. no LMR. She even mentioned I was the second guy to be inside her and that she has never fucked someone who has not been her boyfriend.
Some people would generalize that a first date with no kiss close means that you automatically fall under orbiter status. I don’t think that’s the case. I could have gone for the kiss but I knew instinctively that pushing for it would slam me against what YOHAMI calls a wall. It feels nice to listen to your gut. There was no friction between our interaction, but I knew deep down sex was bound to happen. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t mind if sex doesn’t happen on the first date, just as long as you genuinely enjoy the company of the girl and that you know instinctively that sex will happen eventually. The girl just wants to pace you for the sake of enjoying the dance, and if that happens maybe one should relax and enjoy the dance too.
Alternatively, I know what you say has weight because I pushed for fast sex with Chinese girl I mentioned to you and I got the lay but she ghosted me the day after. haha
This article has been a reflection of the things I’ve gone through as well, it’s as if you’re my subconscious being brought to my consciousness. Thanks for the article.
“She even mentioned I was the second guy to be inside her and that she has never fucked someone who has not been her boyfriend.”
Hey we found another one!
Some good comments basednic and that matches my experience. Personally I prefer to save the kiss until the point when I’m ready to escalate to sex. So if it’s on during the first date I pull her to a place where we can have sex, and once there and the moment is right I’ll pull her in to me and kiss her, and things go quickly from there. More often than not though I find the two date model has better odds of getting to sex, and also building a connection to keep a girl in your rotation if that’s what you choose to do. So the first date is an hour where you build tension but don’t kiss her. Leaves her wondering about if you like her enough, which is a good thing and sets you up as the “top guy”. Then for the 2nd date when she’s at my place I kiss her and 90% of the time that leads to sex. Rarely do I get LMR with this, and it’s usually 2-3 hours of face time over two dates before we’re fucking.
I’ve found the same thing you have, that if you’re mis-calibrated and push things too fast she will ghost afterwards. This holds true whether you fuck her or just get a heavy makeout. So calibration and having a sense as to when you’ve raised her buying temperature is key. And prior to that you’re of course doing the things that raise her buying temperature, such as leading, challenging, seductive eye contact, touching her…the whole push/pull dance.
It’s completely normal to want and have a deeper connection with some girls where you want to see them more than once, or even regularly. You can do this without committing to being monogamous. Just see her once a week (no more often than this), keep texting and boyfriend behaviors to a minimum, keep your top guy frame when you see her, and avoid talk about “the relationship”. At any given time I’ve got three girls I see once a week in this way, in addition to being out meeting and fucking new girls. This allows you to have a deeper connection with the girls you want, while keeping freedom to do what you want with any other girl.
Haha Magnum. It sounds like you may have read a lot of Blackdragon’s work. I have learned a great deal from him when it comes to relationship management. A lot of what you’re saying is echoing his style, and I admire it because it really brings out maximum efficiency. We are busy men with our own mission to attend to and this style of game where you get recurring sex is also good since it puts you in a position of abundance and translates to “top guy” behavior. I think the best part is not having to go through these long drought periods that ONS guys usually experience.
In my experience though, I only keep a single girl for rotation then possibly some ONS or Fuckbuddies on the side that I contact just whenever I feel like it. Spinning two to three plates by dating them is not only expensive but detracts me from my mission since they require a lot of time and energy. That’s just me though. Appreciate the response brother!
Spot on. I’ve applied Blackdragon’s model because it’s so effective, I’m getting to the point where it’s second nature and just part of who I am. No one seems to read his stuff when I link to it so instead I spelled out the basics so guys can at least benefit from an introduction.
There’s a lot of ways to apply the techniques to build the set of relationships / rotation that you want. I’m a high sex drive guy so like to have 3-4 different girls a week. My days though are 100% on my mission and goals.
Spot on basednic I apply Blackdragon’s model because it’s so efficient and effective. I’m at the point where it’s second nature to how I manage the women in my life. No one seems to read his stuff when I link to it, so I outlined the basics so guys can at least benefit from an introduction.
There’s so many ways to apply the techniques to your life and how you want it to be, from ONS only to just a few regular girls in rotation. I’m high sex drive so like to have different 3-4 girls a week. But my goals come first and during the day I’m 100% focused on my mission.
Great to see like minded men on this blog. These are some of the best game discussions I’ve seen anywhere and kudos to Nash to keeping this going.
I commented this at riv’s..
Hey yohami. Im trying to see this top guy thing in real life. Trying to experiment it in field and see how it goes.
A few questions:
“The top guy is transported by the bottom guy”
Can top guy exist without bottom guy? From this whole comment what i got is a guy cant be on top without a bottom guy to dominate. How to be a top guy when there’s no bottom guy around to be dominated? Like when you are one on one with a girl. What about the concept of sigma?
You said somewhere top guy and being successful are two different things. So successful guys can be bottom guys and unsuccessful people can be top guys. Yes? It sounds weird even typing that :/
About the video of that homeless guy you posted.. where does his top guy frame come from? He has nothing to base it on, nothing to show off/swing his dick, nothing going on for him. Is he a delusional narcissist?
The baseball guy.. isnt his behavior reasonable/normal? It would be stupid to act proud even when you know you made a mistake/fucked up. Better to realize ur mistake so u can learn from it, grow and be better next time. If he acted all victorious after that shot, that would look lame/idiotic/stubborn/immature/delusional. No?
What does a top guy’s view of/behavior/interaction with other top guys look like? Do they both try to dominate each other since thats what top guys do? Do both engage in battle until a top guy is decided? And one of the top guys becomes a bottom guy? Is top guy contextual? Like a guy can be a top guy in a particular situation and a bottom guy in another OR a top guy is a top guy no matter what! Do top guys hate each other?
Do top guys avoid places/people where they arent on top? That sounds like regression/staying in comfort zone. Where is the growth/pushing comfort zones?
You said pain isnt the destination. Its the path. Destination is top guy. But you also advise to avoid pain/rejection. Can you elaborate a bit on this paradox?
Thank you ?
First a refresher
Top guy / bottom guy are ‘frames’ and are also actual positions on how you play the social game and your life. The two usually match, but not necessarily.
There’s the internal frame reference, also known as your psychology / mindset, which is where your behavior comes from, and behavior becomes skillsets. Also your beliefs and your filters and how you interpret reality.
Then there’s the physical reality, the context, society out there, the place you occupy in the world.
The communication between these are a feedback loop. If you play a hard game of football and win, then you feel like a winner. The feeling is the internal frame, the actual match won is the external frame. Win a lot and you’ll feel like a winner all the time, lose and lot and you’ll feel like a loser all the time. At points your frames wont match – for example to put the amount of hours and sacrifices necessary to become an athlete, you need to be pinging to the ‘winner’ frame, and take the small victories to fuel it, and the failures to give you something to fight against. Also it’s possible to get stuck in some areas, obsessed about an old experience or identity, so you carry along a frame even if it doesn’t match reality – you keep feeling like a winner when you’re a homeless, or you feel like a failure when you’re a billionaire.
The distinction for internal / external is important because if you want to climb (and you do) you need to understand where you’re going, what’s helping you, and what isnt.
So your answers:
“Can top guy exist without bottom guy?”
“How to be a top guy when there’s no bottom guy around to be dominated?”
The “Guy” is you.
It’s about how you face reality, adversity, resources, opportunities, pain, pleasure, etc. You either put yourself on top of them, or under them.
You’re taking control and setting the course, or something else external is pushing you and masking you. You’re either expressing the truth or you’re molding yourself into something else to be liked. You’re either submissive or dominant. Etc.
But you’re the guy. This is not about you finding other people to oppress so you can feel big – which is actually a sign that your internal frame is ‘bottom’.
“Like when you are one on one with a girl.”
When you’re with a girl, are you leading her, or is she leading you?
Are you setting the pace or is she setting it?
Are you putting yourself first or putting her first?
Are you on top of the situation or under the situation? are you buyer or seller? are you the hunter or the hunted? do you have the power or are you powerless? etc.
You will play the dynamic depending on what your psychological frame is.
“What about the concept of sigma?”
Sigma is still ‘top guy’ and I think it means ‘asocial alpha’. I have not met or seen any Sigmas – the only reference I have is Wolverine.
“successful guys can be bottom guys and unsuccessful people can be top guys. Yes?”
Yes.
Look for interviews of Henry Calvin (?) the guy playing superman. He’s a good looking millionaire playing a superhero AND a complete loser / beta who puts women on a pedestal and has no self esteem.
Look for that homeless guy who got out of rehab and walks around like he’s Jesus.
So, yeah.
When they face their respective realities they place themselves as top / bottom.
“About the video of that homeless guy you posted.. where does his top guy frame come from?”
He’s delusional to some degree – but he’s a tall, good looking guy, with charm, full of confidence, raunchy humor, and an interesting story. That’s more going for him that most men have. My guess is he was a good looking kid with plenty of testosterone and thought he could run that scheme forever. Eventually it will catch up with him.
“Is he a delusional narcissist?”
Could be. If so then reality will never catch up with him.
“The baseball guy.. isnt his behavior reasonable/normal?”
Yes – he’s well adjusted. His behavior was cocky / winner and switched to bottom guy / apologetic in an instance when he embarased himself. Aka he’s not crazy – he can use that well tuned machine to climb and become good, assuming he can project his frame forward and use it as a radar of where to go.
“It would be stupid to act proud even when you know you made a mistake/fucked up”
It would be stupid, but also would be funny. Everyone laughs when the ball hits the fattie wearing a pink shirt on the groin. Everyone. As an extension everyone also laughs ‘at him’
But that’s also an opening.
There are many scenarios where the external reality sets you up for failure and tells you now it’s time to be bottom guy, but if you switch to top guy instead it ends up changing the external reality. Because it’s a loop.
Every female shit test / most male – female dynamics fall in this category.
Every time a woman pings you there are equal parts of pushing you down and pushing you up. Sometimes it’s only about pushing you down.
There’s no a single case when assuming ‘bottom guy’ is a win for you. Even if it’s reasonable.
Say you’re making out and you grab her boobs. She wasn’t prepared, now she’s offended. You realize you crossed the line. If you go bottom guy, that reinforces that she was right in not wanting you that close, and now she’ll want the distance to increase and give you ten new things to make you switch to bottom; but if you go top instead, and laugh it off, and grab her other boob or her ass or just don’t let it touch you and keep progressing like nothing, that tells her instead that her worries are unfounded and that you’re worthy of her and actually now she does want that you grab her boobies.
The capacity to decide what’s your own frame is, in itself ‘top guy’
Which is attractive.
In the case of the baseball kid, if he had used that moment and do a victory pose and land, that would have ‘aroused’ all the women, make some of them mad, and make mad some of the men. So he’d be shit tested. If he then doubled down on top guy bruising it off, laughing it off, doing more dances and saying more things, that would result in instant fame. Stuff like this is what makes the Logal Paul’s money.
What did he gain by being a socially correct man?
He wont be even able to bang a girl like that.
From now on he’s not the cool jerk who made a stunt – but the loser who blew an opportunity and now has to make amends. All because of how he faced adversity.
And –
Life throws shit at you all the time, and forces you to go down. The exit of all these situations is channeling top guy frame, so you can get control and climb. Sometimes even pinging the frame is enough.
I have some personal stories here, I’ll share them later.
“If he acted all victorious after that shot, that would look lame/idiotic/stubborn/immature/delusional. No?”
Yep – he’d be attacked, then it’s his turn to double down. This is the same as peackoking. You show something where it’s easy to attack you, just to be able to win these fights.
“What does a top guy’s view of/behavior/interaction with other top guys look like?”
You can compete with other guys, or cooperate with other guys, same as usual.
“Do they both try to dominate each other since thats what top guys do? ”
You can play next to each other aligned against a common enemy / working for a shared goal. Think sports. You dominate the other team. While both teams also cooperate for the sport (even when they play against each other)
“Do both engage in battle until a top guy is decided?”
Yes on an interpersonal level, one guy will be the top guy for the other top guys to follow. Even A star teams have a captain.
“Do top guys hate each other?”
If they don’t find a way to cooperate and they are on the same game, yeah.
But look at sports again. Even two boxers who are doing nothing but trying to knock the other guy down have an intrinsic respect for each other (shown after the fight). Both have put the game above themselves – they are basically the same person, chase the same idea.
“Do top guys avoid places/people where they arent on top?”
Yes but don’t look this as cowardice, it’s a skill.
You will find realities that match your internal frame.
I like to win.
I’ll reject a losing proposition.
And like bottom guy will always find games where he’s bottom. I was there too.
“That sounds like regression/staying in comfort zone.”
You should make ‘winning’ your comfort zone. Going for the win is how you grow.
“Where is the growth/pushing comfort zones?”
Comfort zones are bad when you’re being complacent in getting screwed, not developing to your potential, not expressing yourself, and not getting what you want. “Top guy” frame is where you stop being screwed, develop to your potential, and express yourself, plus get what you want. So.
“You said pain isnt the destination. Its the path.”
Pain is not the path – pain is just inevitable.
But there’s no gain in pain – not IN pain. You may have gains that require pain.
Go to the gym, the iron will leave you sour, your muscles will hurt – that’s a sign that you’re working. Work hard, you’ll be tired. Start new business, some will fail. Take risks, you’ll make mistakes. Form bonds, you’ll be betrayed at times. Make investments, you’ll lose some. Etc
But you don’t win anything by hurting, being tired, failing business, making mistakes, being betrayed, and losing money.
You do win everything by working, starting biz, taking risks, forming bonds, investing.
It’s the action part of the equation what makes you grow.
Not the pain – you don’t win anything by pain alone. It’s not like you can stay home and torture yourself with needles and that will result in anything.
It’s the action – the action gives you a feedback loop, changes your behavior, becomes a skill, you learn to get what you want, become wiser, and while doing so, you are able to manage and reduce the level of pain, build cushions so the blows are less devastating when they happen, you become more solid, as a result of being able to repeat the things that you did right, so you become capable of facing adversity and molding reality and bending it to your will.
That’s what you’re going for. It’s not the pain.
Pain is just a necessary annoyance.
“Destination is top guy. But you also advise to avoid pain/rejection. Can you elaborate a bit on this paradox?”
Well you’re there and looking at the girl, you like her a LOT. You know that if you do action A she opens and she loves you forever, if you do action B she rejects you and you never see each other again.
All other things being equal, do you do A or B?
If there’s something that you want, do you want to have it?
If not having it is pain, and having it is pleasure, do you go for pain or for pleasure?
If you want to win, and don’t want to lose, and this is within your reach, do you decide to win or to lose?
There’s no paradox. Embracing win is rejecting loses, embracing pleasure is avoiding pain.
This isn’t about avoiding all pain. This is about choosing your destination.
Pain is inevitable, but that has no gravitas whatsoever.
Focus on the win.
“grab her other boob or her ass or just don’t let it touch you and keep progressing like nothing”
Isn’t this pushing against resistance/crashing into walls/bottom guy/rewarding non.compliance? This just happened actually. I grabbed a girl’s waist and hair and she got offended. I backed way off. She was actually giving me openings to take her earlier but as usual i failed to escalate which is my main sticking point for quite sometime now. Fucking it up and then trying to make amends :D
Text convo with another girl..
Her: If u hv sm extra gold sell it to me .?
I m expecting some great discount ?
Me: Haha come and get them ?
Her: Oh i seeee
I might if i m in the mood
Me: Sure?
Her: Wat sure
Why cnt i see ur name among the ones who hv seen my status
Me: Im on god mode ?
Her: ? hows ur cough but
Me: Better
Her: thats great
Get well sooner
Me: Thnx cutie
Her: M i supposed to say “Aww “?
I didnt reply after her this last text. What do you think is going on here? Whats would have been good reply to her last text? Seems like a trap.
Thanks for the earlier detailed reply.
“Isn’t this pushing against resistance/crashing into walls/bottom guy/rewarding non.compliance? ”
“pushing through / against resistance” is not a single act but a ‘strategy’ for bottom guy frame. You start from a ‘she resists me’ point of view then try to overcome that. You push against her walls and try to bring them down.
“rub her arousal spots, ignore her walls’ is the strategy for top guy frame. So sometimes you’ll hit a wall, or move before the pace was set, or two quick, then you bruise it off and it never happened, or you double down just to piss her off some (in a teasy way).
So sometimes you’ll go past the cue: no big deal, you roll back and keep arousing her.
While bottom guy frame just gets stuck in this one thing like banging his head against a wall. Stuck in details, logistics, specific moves, etc, all obstacles are too big and real.
A lot of game and PUA is written exclusively about this ‘dealing with her rejection’ and how to turn it around. “sea of rejection” “force her IOIs” “train her to want you” etc. It comes from scarcity, so it generates it, it gets carried along. Pushing against her resistance as a strategy to get laid means you don’t know how to arouse her otherwise – you defeat the girl to fuck her.
That alone means most women wont give you time of the day, since they are too busy chasing men who can arouse them instead.
Her: M i supposed to say “Aww “?
Me: Yes. Come and take care of me
———
“Seems like a trap.”
You flirted (calling her cutie), she challenges your status. It’s a trap in the sense that if you back off you’re done, so this is for you to double down.
Her ‘wink’ means she knows she’s being mean about it, and fully expects to be ‘punished’ for it. My reply doubles down on the flirt, then tells her to do something. It’s ‘come and take care of me’ because you’re sick and coughing and she shows she cares, so that’s you using her own proposition to close that loop and escalate. Placed after her challenge is a perfect place to do so as well.
And of course when she comes to you, give her dick.
—-
Nash see that stuff above?
How to negotiate between not pushing against her resistance when we make a move and not rewarding non.compliance? You said somewhere in reply to blue valentine’s that dont push when you make a move and she doesnt open up as it comes across as chasing at that point. Shouldnt we be punishing non.compliance?
At every point there will be things that arouse her and things that don’t. Your job is to find the things that arouse her and do more of that, and find the things that don’t arouse her (as a result of your arousal screening) and do less of that.
So that’s the negotiation. If you give me cases I can break it down if needed.
—————-
“How to negotiate between not pushing against her resistance when we make a move and not rewarding non.compliance?”
You find a wall, a non arousal spot, a resistance – you deny your attention to that spot (which is non-rewarding it), you keep screening and find an arousal spot, you double down there, which is rewarding it.
What you don’t do is finding a resistance and keep pushing on it – as your strategy to get laid. Focus on what makes her open, not what makes her pull the brakes.
Your attention is a reward and an investment. Reward what you like, don’t reward what you don’t like. Engage with her receptiveness, not with her rejectiveness (!)
————–
“You said somewhere in reply to blue valentine’s that dont push when you make a move and she doesnt open up as it comes across as chasing at that point. ”
Correct.
————-
“Shouldnt we be punishing non.compliance?”
You ‘punish’ it by not engaging on it.
If this sounds like martian talk, give me some cases.
“You ‘punish’ it by not engaging [on] it.”
How does it square off with your “you smell like cheese sandwich” and “non-drinkers are boring” in response to lack of compliance? Isn’t that a form of engaging too?
I’m asking, because I cannot not engage and punish non-compliance harshly. Not necessarily right away, but nothing goes past my guard eventualy. I somewhat want to have the [inner] freedom to actually stonewall either whole people are some parts of them…
Yohami, is Donald Trump an example of a Top Guy?
Hey Yohami, could you please help with this? Especially I want to learn in order for me to adopt more of the Top Guy Frame. I do not like being the guy I am with this girl. Whether it is being a flame crash warrior or moving into more beta with courage, which I am doing. Neither feels good to me. So it’s an opportunity to learn.
Of course, you can use the whole conversation in your upcoming book, including any suggestions you might give.
The American girl conversation continued:
Me: Let’s meet
Her: I can’t this weekend. I have to take the school kids to a sporting competition.
Her: But I can next weekend.
Her: Did you do the STD test last week?
Me: Yes, and I have the results with me. Super clean.
Me: It’s a good thing that you work for the Salvation Army. You have a good heart.
Her: What? I don’t work for the salvation army.
Me: I imagine the look of confusion on your face. That’s funny.
Her: It’s only funny if two people are in on the joke.
Me: Nope. It’s funny to me.
Her: This is ignorant. You piss me off. Bye.
Me: Hahahahaha
Me (After 2 days): I changed my number. This is my new number.
Me: I hope you had fun with the kids at the sporting event.
Her: I didn’t appreciate how you talked to me last time.
Her: I don’t really feel interested in pursuing anything after being belittled… and when I told you repeated that I don’t like it, you wouldn’t acknowledge my concerns or even attempt to be a little sensitive.
Me (This is after I read Riv’s post Yohami about how clashing frames isn’t good, so I was being “softer”. Normally, I’ll tell her: This is me, take it or leave it. But I decided to not clash frames): I haven’t dealt with American girls before. I have a lot to learn.
Her: That right there tells me you don’t know how to treat a woman while dating… you be very crude with sexual talk with no thoughts on how I would feel… and then you talk down to me through out that entire conversation…
Me: Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate it. And wish you the best. I really do. I was happy knowing you.
Her: Now you are being insecure.
Me: While learning how to deal with you, I’ll offend you. And neither of us will enjoy that. I hope you find a sweet loving guy who has more experience with American girls.
Her: You’re still acting insecure.
Her: With all of those statements.
Me: I don’t think so.
Me: I really am not being passive aggressive (if that’s how you detect insecurity).
Me: You’re an awesome girl.
Me: But I will make mistakes and offend you. I’m not good for you.
Her: Sounds like you have a habit of offending people
Me: Honestly only you
Me: But I can see how what I said the other time was not considerate.
Me: It’s fine though. I offend you. I’m not good for you. Let’s accept that.
Her: Ok… all you had to do was give an honest whole heartedly apology… and you didn’t… you automatically jumped to “I offended you, I’m not good for you” talk… ever negative.
Her: Ok. That is all.
Her: Best wishes to you too.
Me: I apologize for offending you.
Me: I have the courage to become a better person and make this work.
Me: I just feel you don’t have the patience while I learn how to deal with you.
Me: You get pissed off so easily.
Me: It’s ok. We will never see each other.
Her: You are being dramatic.
Her: “We will never see each other”
Her: That’s now what you say to someone when you want it to work… It’s extremely negative.
Her: And turns me off.
Me: Look. I like this. You and me are trying to make it work. It means it is important for us. So it means things will get better.
Me: If I didn’t care I wouldn’t stay up this late talking to you.
Me:I care
Her: I am not romantically inclined to engage in anything with you.
Me: Let’s talk in audio
Me: Can I call?
Her: Tomorow
Her: After I get home late.
Me: Ok. But not for 1 minute?
Me: A good night call
Her: No… I need time
Her: I need to get up at 5AM
Her: Give me space.
Me: Yes
Her: Bye
Me: Gn
——-
Honestly, this is a lot of drama for me. I normally would crash frames but I tried not to. I also though of openings, so the fact that she keeps on responding to my texts is an opening. I am her best option now because she lives in another city where she is afraid people will “gossip” as she talked about kids doing. She wants to go to another city on the weekend and get fucked hard, have fun with some guy, then go back to her normal life. I don’t think any other guy right now is offering her this possibility like I am. She’s too busy being a teach to find many other guys.
I thought of sending her a message today with: I need space, this is too much drama for me. Take some days to think this through, and either take me the way I am or we go our separate ways. I won’t compromise myself for pussy. (This is honestly how I feel these days, less drama is valuable to me).
However, the way I am is not getting me laid much. So I know the value of evolving, changing and becoming a better man. That is why Yohami your advice is so valuable.
She expects me to talk to her by phone tonight. First, should I even do that or keep it to text? And what message should I bring across? The message that we can make this work? Or the message that I am me and she can take it or leave it? Or say: let’s start a blank page and forget the past? Or what?
This is a big investment on her part. Especially that she’d be traveling almost 3 hours to come here, she said she wants to go on a date, have fun in the city, and doesn’t want to be pressured for sex. But at the same time her asking me to do an STD test etc shows she wants the Dick.
You switched from bottom guy clashing frames to bottom guy with a tail between your legs
You offering the apology is you still ‘frame clashing’ but losing it on purpose, which she called ‘insecure’
She’s asking you about your STD ests which means she’s 1000% DTF
The question is: wtf are you doing in all these texts, what’s your intention?
Ok. Originally like she said she can only meet next Saturday.
My intent with the texts was to learn more how to deal with women.
Now she wants to talk on the phone tonight.
Should I just not talk to her much and then just set up a date next Saturday?
I think she enjoys the drama, so that’s what she is doing with the texts: Creating drama to feel good.
Like Dr Robert Glover says: Drama is foreplay for women. They need drama to be turned on.
It is you who generated unnecessary drama in this case. What was
“Me: It’s a good thing that you work for the Salvation Army. You have a good heart.”
for? Instead, you should have picked time/place next weekend and stop fidgiting.
“My intent with the texts was to learn more how to deal with women.”
That’s not enough. Focus on what you want with HER specifically, and learn how to get what you want with her, specifically.
When you say “I know what I want” etc that’s kind of decent: now act the part. What do you want, specifically, and what are you communicating to get it?
What is your intention with stuff like this?
“Me: I apologize for offending you.
Me: I have the courage to become a better person and make this work.
Me: I just feel you don’t have the patience while I learn how to deal with you.
Me: You get pissed off so easily.
Me: It’s ok. We will never see each other.”
What kind of reaction are you expecting from her?
“Should I just not talk to her much and then just set up a date next Saturday?”
Talk to her on the phone, and fuck her already.
“Like Dr Robert Glover says: Drama is foreplay for women. They need drama to be turned on.”
No, whoever said that is an idiot.
Yohami, ok, new girl I picked today. She was ovulating, I could sense that, and I held her hands while doing the daygame. So this is the text:
Me: Hello.
Her: Hi
Her: How many days you stay in [City]?
Me: i’m staying 3 months.
Me: When can we meet? :)
Her: So long
Me: For work.
Her: I will text you! When are you free?
Me: I’m flexible with time. When you know you can meet, text me.
Me: Soon.
Me: :)
Her: Okay.
Me: Tomorrow?
Her: Maybe
Her: Maybe in the week
Me: Are you near [my address]?
Her: Not really
Me: I work and also live near [my address] where we met
Me: Just text me and we will meet
Her: Okay
—-
So, Yohami, is this better? Am I working the lead better? As you see, I am going for the meet over chit chat. I first left it to her to set up a meet, then wanted to be more proactive so asked tomorrow. I also tried to check her logistics to see what’s up.
She is ovulating. As daygamers, our fastest lays are ovulating girls. So missing this window could fuck things up. Time before sex isn’t always on our side unless we’re going for “sweet sweet relationship”. Which, with this girl, I am not. I was sexual and physical with her in the stop and will always be, no relationship talk whatsoever.
Still, what can I learn from this? I think you can see I am taking your advice seriously and trying to improve based on your advice each time. With this text convo, I am not talking about anything except setting up the date, and also checking logistics to see if there is any opening. She is showing compliance, maybe I should have rewarded that, but I did not punish it either.
The first part is better, the last part is worse. Kudos for whatever you did on the pickup – she’s really into you.
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
She’s picking you up – that’s very close to my default line “When are you free? I’ll take you out”
Because she’s basically offering to you, and this is something you like, REWARD that behavior. Make a point to reward all the behavior you like, and punish all the behavior you don’t.
How you reward it? give it attention. My reply would be:
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
Like this she gets validation, and you open some space to back and forth and more flirt or even set the logistics already.
Your line here is decent, would work better AFTER you’ve explored some scenarios, this is an ok IDGAF closing line:
“Me: I’m flexible with time. When you know you can meet, text me.”
That’s an ok goodbye. “call me”. From there on you revert to chase pushy beta bottom guy:
“Me: Soon.
Me: :)”
Now that detached closing line is not detached anymore but needy. Pick one, you’re either pushy or detached. Injecting both creates dissonance. You’ll get shit tested. Her response is a wall, she’s not enthusiastic about your flipping behavior and lack of acknowledging her (you had to reward dude)
“Her: Okay.”
Yep, she thought you were pathetic, but will let it go.
“Me: Tomorrow?”
Now you’re chasing. Chase is when you keep pursuing when you face a wall. This is you ‘pushing through resistance’. There was no resistance: she’s the one taking you out, but now you’re pushy and chasey for absolutely no reason. You created that little resistance for being pushy, and now that you saw the mini resistance you want to bite it hard.
Bottom guy has to die.
“Her: Maybe
Her: Maybe in the week”
She’s less invested now – but still DTF. The proper response to this would be:
“Awesome” or “Perfect” or “Sounds good” etc. Basically you reward the positive part of her response and ignore her mild lack of enthusiasm. You take that ‘maybe’ as a ‘yes’. Here instead you chase again, HARD
“Me: Are you near [my address]?”
Chasing like a puppy chiuahua. Who gives a fuck if she’s near what? if she’s close, then what? if she’s not, then what? this is why I ask what’s your intention with the stuff you write. You’re leading nowhere, she sets another wall
“Her: Not really”
Bounced. Interest going down rapidly: chase is death. What do you do now? CHASE MORE. Brilliant /s
“Me: I work and also live near [my address] where we met
Me: Just text me and we will meet”
This is you chasing for rapport, aka trying to stablish a conversation, giving random facts and trying to ping some interest – but with stuff like this. Who cares where you work? how is that related to her desire to fuck you? she was already DTF, now you’re chasing her and trying to talk about work. Don’t. She, very predictable, starts to forget about you:
“Her: Okay”
Zero fucks given.
Learn to not chase, not to chase rapport, and pay attention to behavior you like so you can reward it, and behavior you don’t like so you can punish it. As long as you’re not doing these things you’re not in the Game.
Still – your initial interaction turned her on enough she wants to take you on a date, and that interaction will be stronger if you stop the dumb thing you’re doing over text – just stop. Wait a couple days till she contacts you. If she doesn’t, ping her “hey sexy” and let it be until she contacts you again.
Cheers man.
another texting masterclass by yohami. excellent.
“Make a point to reward all the behavior you like, and punish all the behavior you don’t.”
Do you explain-elucidate this strategy post-factum – espfor example if they ask “why???” in response to some of the punishment?
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
What is the purpose of this question?
I’ve been asked this question recently twice and asnwered [truthfully] with
1. make love all night long.
2. I don’t know yet.
but they felt like some of some tests of my intention-clarity. I had to stop and think in the first case and in the second I felt put on the spot – beta-trap style.
UK,
>> “Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
>> What is the purpose of this question?
I don’t like this… I am assuming you don’t either.
I’m “always free.” And then asking her to lead with a suggestion?
I think “getting her to chase” is GREAT when it happens organically, and has it’s merits as a goal (but is WAY OVER SOLD in the community… mostly repeated by guys that don’t have the value to use it)…
But LEADING trumps “getting her to chase,” most of the time. Girls… are passive. Even when they “chase,” it’s often only with a look… so we lead.
>> Her: I will text you! When are you free?
I would say, “I want to see you…” (which I would classify as “Octopus Game”) and then I would lead… “Let’s get together Tues at 7… or maybe Friday.”
It’s great that she was chasing, and that she liked him… that DOES point to a strong pickup.
But this text game to me… it all “girl style” communication. There is nothing dominant or masculine in it… and that will give girls less than “on” reactions.
When in doubt… be masculine. You will lose some girls, but it’s clean, straightfwd game and great for your inner game.
………………………
>> I’ve been asked this question recently twice and asnwered [truthfully] with
— UK
I think YOU have been asked this by the GIRL, right?
If so, that makes sense to me…”what do you want to do” is a question the GIRL asks. It’s a “congruence test” and a basic logistics question.
If I was asked that, by a girl, when I was setting up logistics… I would say, “Let’s have some fun.” I like that… in part as it can be interpreted from any POV. I have also said, “Let’s meet at 7, and we’ll see how we feel.” Which I also like… as it allows for flexibility… I literally do that, and see how she/I feel, and have two options in mind in advance… (dinner or a drink, usually… or cool vs quiet bar, etc), and I take it from there.
Last night… I gave her two choices… based on her HUNGER. I said to text me to let me know how hungry she was… A. Hungry, I take her straight to dinner. B. No that hungry… we fuck first.
Managing a girls HUNGER is also an undersold part of game. I spend a lot of time making sure girls aren’t hungry (hungry isn’t sexy)… and also… sexing them (when I can) if they are not… and dinner after.
Post sex dinners are the best dinners.
“I don’t like this… I am assuming you don’t either.”
It’s not that I don’t *like* this. It’s just I would have never said **texted** something like this and that’s why I wanted to know the rational-dynamics behind it and it does look like I’ve missed something.
“Im always free” is great, because it comes from a top frame – “i do whatever the fuck i want” – not from the bottom frame – “i want to please you” – and, most importantly, when a girls is aroused hungry and chasing-inviting.
“what do you want to do?” puts you in the position of a judge – flipping the script and doubling down on her investing.
Yohami’s lessons are starting to sink in. Basically, you have to milk her being active, proposing, chasing you for as long as the wave rides and not stop her prematurely. I had this problem in bed earlier on in my life – a woman would be blowing me and I would flip her over and start fucking her not because I wanted to, but because I didn’t feel fully comfortable just sitting back and “being passive” in being pleased.
So now, I *do* understand that firstly mysterious line. Yohami is probing her and doubling down on what he likes – her chase. If that line bounces back, he can retake the reigns, but he is not falling into “girls are passive” right away – especially since this one is being active in the moment.
“hungry vagina on a prowl” is becoming more and more part of my map…
[“Im always free” is great, because it comes from a top frame – “i do whatever the fuck i want” – not from the bottom frame – “i want to please you” – and, most importantly, when a girls is aroused hungry and chasing-inviting.
“what do you want to do?” puts you in the position of a judge – flipping the script and doubling down on her investing.]
Honestly, I question this.
When a girl will read “Im always free”, she will not think this guy does what he wants, she will think this guy has nothing to do with his life.
And when she read “what do you want to do?” that is a guy asking the girl to lead. Girls hate leading, it is stressful to them, responsibility in a male-female interaction is stressful to them. The ideal to them will be that you magically know the best time and date for her and to tell her to do that without her saying anything, just following your lead to the perfect smooth interaction.
But in the real world, we don’t have that ability to I inquired.
[When in doubt… be masculine. You will lose some girls, but it’s clean, straightfwd game and great for your inner game.]
I purposefully didn’t do this because I did not want to crash against walls. In my experience, when I say “let’s meet on this day, at this place, at this time” out of nowhere, most girls will respond with “I can’t on that day, let’s do it another day”. From my understanding of Yohami, that would be crashing against a wall. So the right thing is to find out the opening first before doubling down.
I did that in the interaction. I probed to find a possible date, she was vague. So I set a semi-concrete date, and she stayed vague. So I didn’t push it further to not crash against the wall.
Empty your mind, grasshopper! Class is in session! ;)
“When a girl will read “Im always free”, she will not think this guy does what he wants, she will think [THANK GOD I CAN MEET AND BANG HIM ASAP WHILE I FEEL LIKE DOING IT!!]”
This is not the screeening phase where she is judging you – this is the phase where you’ve already passed and she wants not to have the past attraction destroyed by your stupid mistakes while keeping as much of you to herself as possible.
“Girls hate leading, it is stressful to them, responsibility in a male-female interaction is stressful to them.”
You are being extra-obtuse. She is *already* leading with “when are you free?”. Don’t you see it???
“The ideal to them will be that you magically know the best time and date for her and to tell her to do that without her saying anything”
Read about Yohami’s “ramp”. I only recently undertood this concept and it’s made quite a difference. You are not working in the blind and you propose the time and date only after she is actually open to meeting you, after she already wants you, so that even if your first suggesting is a off, it’s still game on and she complies/makes herself available.
“I did that in the interaction. I probed to find a possible date, she was vague.”
She was probing **you**, mate! She was seducing you! You stopped that flow. Porque?
“It’s a “congruence test” and a basic logistics question.”
I don’t mind it as a basic logistics question [she needs to know if she is staying overnight or if she needs to bring dancing shoes, for example]. I do mind it as a congruence test [the one I answered, after a long pause, “to make love”] and as a way to make monkey – me, that is – dance-dance-dance!
Basically, I want a girl being simply happy and content with the fact that we are meeting up – not with the details of the meeting itself. I want her to submit to my lead and my decisions to organize our time together and to believe that I will give her all the necessary info. Many moons ago a woman asked me “what are we going to do” specially in a way that implied that her agreement to come was dependent on how much of a good boy I will be. “watch the paint dry” I answered.
“Post sex dinners are the best dinners.”
I dunno, man. Sat night I cooked some meat/spinach/pumkin for a dinner with a girl – while she brought some dessert – and I felt kind of sluggish and lethargic when I started banging her right afterwards… It got better a few hours later tho!
[My reply would be:
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”]
Why is this a good text, Yohami?
First, “Im always free” shows you have nothing to do. And normally a tenet of the community is that you’re not a guy who has nothing to do. Your default is you are busy but have some time for her.
Second, “what do you want to do?” where is the leadership in that? I mean, I’m the man with the plan. Asking her what the plan is would normally be something I imagine is bottom guy.
[“Her: Maybe
Her: Maybe in the week”
She’s less invested now – but still DTF. The proper response to this would be:
“Awesome” or “Perfect” or “Sounds good”]
Again, to me ending it on her saying “Maybe” means I am keeping the ball in her court. Which is not leading in my mind. Leading is what you called “pull”.
So what I did, in my mind, was not chasing. I gave her the opportunity to meet me tomorrow, and also the space to take it to not. That’s why it was “tomorrow?”
[Learn to not chase, not to chase rapport, and pay attention to behavior you like so you can reward it, and behavior you don’t like so you can punish it. As long as you’re not doing these things you’re not in the Game.]
Could you write more about your definition of “chase rapport”? Some thing I do are not coming from a place of chasing rapport. As a man, my default is to deal in facts. I did not tell her about where I live and work because I want conversation, I thought I was “seeding the pull” and will get her to meet me directly at my apartment.
[stop the dumb thing you’re doing over text – just stop. Wait a couple days till she contacts you. If she doesn’t, ping her “hey sexy” and let it be until she contacts you again.]
That’s why I am excited and looking forward to your book.
I plan to do this anyway. During the week, I ping all girls on Sunday and Wednesday.
Today is Sunday, I pinged her. I know I will only bing her Wednesday so I “chased” only to see if there is an opportunity to meet before my next ping. Why waste time and delay it?
“Still, what can I learn from this? I think you can see I am taking your advice seriously and trying to improve based on your advice each time.” -BlueValentine
good idea!
“Me: When can we meet? :)”
What is the purpose of the smiley face? Either remove it – or make it a wink!
“Her: So long
Me: For work.”
Again, you are adding an irrelevant expression when you could have sexualized-innuendoed her remark [e.g. “that’s what she said ;)”]
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?
Me: I’m flexible with time. When you know you can meet, text me.”
The second part of your remark is basically restating what she said [“I will text you!”] in the imperative fashion. Worse than useless. Stop. Fidgeting!
The rest Yohami covered.
P.S. Become a texting minimalist. Again. Stop. Fidgiting.!
Ok. Update on the texts of the ovulating girl:
Me: Hey dangerous girl ;)
Her: Hi
Her: Did you like your new coat?
Me: You know what I like about you [name]?
Her: ?
Me: Nothing at all ;)
Me: Let’s go for adventure this week.
Her: I can Friday or Saturday.
Me: Which day you can spend more time?
No man, all terrible :-D
You’re flying around like a butterfly and not interacting with her at all. This is a real headscratcher for me.
“Me: Hey dangerous girl ;)”
Don’t frame her as dangerous
———————-
“Her: Hi
Her: Did you like your new coat?”
She ignores your dangerous line, see? goes for rapport instead. Answering if you like your coat is good
Me: Yes it’s the best ever
or
Me: Yes, has enough space for both of us ;-)
If you feel like flirthing
———————-
Instead you ignore her
“Me: You know what I like about you [name]?”
Wtf are you doing.
This is flirting and leading somewhere, but it’s a PUA line, I’ve heard it a million times, so has she. So you frame her as dangerous, she ignores that, goes for rapport, now you ignore the rapport and go for a tease… so where are you going? she also wants to know
“Her: ?”
As clueless as I am as to what you’re doing
“Me: Nothing at all ;)”
wtf. Do you know what I like about you? nothing ;-)
If you got this from a book burn it. If it’s a website, unsubscribe, it’s its a youtube channel, block it: you teased, raised the stakes then deflated yourself. It’s like going “hey Im gonna show you my cock… nevermind ;-)” WTF is this.
But the worse is then you break it yourself and go for a little push. So you created a wall then you bounce against your own wall
“Me: Let’s go for adventure this week.”
This line is OK. It’s the best you did here. Erase all the other stuff from your toolkit and use this line. Use this line for the opener.
She’s DTF still.
“Her: I can Friday or Saturday.”
This is a YES.
REWARD THE YES. TAKE HER.
Instead you punish her:
“Me: Which day you can spend more time?”
By making her work more.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING MAN
:-D
Do you like that when you propose an adventure she says yes?
THEN DO MORE OF THAT, REWARD THAT SHE COMPLIES, here’s how you take that opening:
Me: Friday works best, then we can extend it to saturday morning ;-)
lol man.
“Her: I can Friday or Saturday.”
Friday / Saturday she’s allocating you into boyfriend slots, she’s really into you. Don’t blow this dude :-D
Take her out on friday and bang her all the weekend
And reset what you’re trying to do with the texts, go simpler, stick to the basics
She didn’t yet read this line:
Me: Which day you can spend more time?
So I added yours ;)
Me: Friday works best, then we can extend it to saturday morning ;-)
Ok Yohami, so I see there is a foundational thing that you contradict PUA theory in.
In PUA, push creates attraction. It’s not just for punishment. Any time you push, you show you do not need that girl, which means you are higher status than her, so this creates attraction. Meaning, any push spikes attraction, even if a push without a specific reason.
You don’t believe in that. You believe in rewarding good behavior, only pushing when she does something you do not like AND you dodging most frame clashes to go for openings. It really is (1) very different from what we have grown to learn, so it can be confusing because of being so different, and (2) we have some association with no clash and being a permissive beta, so it is more nuanced than just frame clashing and pushing as a way to spike emotions.
“In PUA, push creates attraction. It’s not just for punishment.”
They are the same thing, it’s about when you use it.
Push when you are punishing, Pull when you’re rewarding. Push Pull to mess up with her in a fun way, in a progression towards sex.
Dont Push when she’s doing stuff you like, and dont Pull when she’s trying to push you away.
” It really is (1) very different from what we have grown to learn”
That’s because if you start from bottom frame, and you face a lot of walls / resistance, then your instinct is to ‘push’ through them, or ‘push’ against the wall, or ‘push’ as an actual escalation, ‘push’ as making things happens, etc.
That’s the wrong way to do it but it happens because you’re on the right frame.
Negs are attractive because it’s the guy with authority doing them – they signal your status.
But don’t neg the stuff you like – it moves you farther from sex, don’t punish the things you want to see more of. Reward these instead.
This is you ‘training her’ to be compliant to you. Reward compliance.
“It’s a basic foundation of the London DayGame Model specific to adventure sex without relationship to frame the girl as dangerous, trouble”
“dangerous” doesn’t specifically talk to HER taking her to the direction that YOU want.
There are girls who are dangerous and trouble and girls who arent – frame the girl in a way that she’s not framed already and that’s you either creating or pushing against a wall.
THIS girl is a positive bubbly leader and she’s already DTF. Take what you like from her and MAXIMIZE it.
Telling her she’s ‘dangerous’ sets the wrong frame for HER, because now it sounds like she has to be more controlled and tamed.
What do you like about her? how do you like to see her more? frame her as that. How will she feel when you frame her? will she feel more at ease having sex with you or less? lead in that way
Me: hey sunshine
Me: hey pretty
Me: hey [nickname]
In short you can’t just go and frame girls as dangerous and trouble – that’s shit game.
You can label yourself as dangerous / trouble / IF that’s what she likes about you.
This is a dance not your solo show.
Look at her / talk to her.
[“Me: Hey dangerous girl ;)”
Don’t frame her as dangerous]
Why not? It’s a basic foundation of the London DayGame Model specific to adventure sex without relationship to frame the girl as dangerous, trouble, etc.
[“Me: You know what I like about you [name]?”
Wtf are you doing.
This is flirting and leading somewhere, but it’s a PUA line, I’ve heard it a million times, so has she. So you frame her as dangerous, she ignores that, goes for rapport, now you ignore the rapport and go for a tease… so where are you going? she also wants to know
“Her: ?”
As clueless as I am as to what you’re doing
“Me: Nothing at all ;)”
wtf. Do you know what I like about you? nothing ;-)
If you got this from a book burn it. If it’s a website, unsubscribe, it’s its a youtube channel, block it: you teased, raised the stakes then deflated yourself. It’s like going “hey Im gonna show you my cock… nevermind ;-)” WTF is this.]
I was thinking I was ramping first with that line to create an attraction spike through a push.
[If you got this from a book burn it.]
When you get your book out, I’ll burn all others ;)
“When are you free? I’ll take you out” — this is such a great line
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?” — this is a VERY interesting line. i never would have thought to write that. to me, it sounds unmanly — and of course, i know i am WRONG to think this, so yohami, could you explain the logic here a bit more, it’s sort of like a secret signal for sex, right?
That line is him flipping the script and doubling down on her investing
You’re getting it :-)
I’ll send you the panties of the first girl I pull using text-game, sensei! ;-)
This comment is based on the assumption that she will fvck a wider range of guys than she’ll date. If you don’t believe that then this post isn’t for you and you can stop reading it to save yourself time…
You can SDL high quality girls. Krauser has, in a general sense, disagreed with this, but Gunwitch says the opposite. How can we reconcile this from two of the best in the Game? The more you believe that SDL are for all types of women (1 – 10) the redder your proverbial pill is.
It is a theory right now, but I believe the answer to the SDL vs Date debate is like most things…it depends. But on what?
Context
BTW this comes from a synthesis of Gunwitch for Social Consequences, Chase Amante on similarity, Krauser for his take on LDM ,Captain Jack for Game Dynamics and a great sales book called Let’s Get Serious or Let’s Not Play for the “excuse being the reason” aka verbal judo.
Check out this post on Being a player in the Game vs Social Proof to learn more about Captain Jack’s ideas about being a rake.
https://librachronicles.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/captain-jack-opening-social-proof-versus-player-in-the-game-and-game-dynamics/
Social proof is what I think “Top Guy” game is, also see Krauser on Chooser vs Chosen, but I can’t ever get a clear definition of what top guy is so I’ve sorta given up on the idea. If it’s not this, then AFAICT it’s a substitute for an alpha/sigma. I’m sure Nash will clear it up when he gets back stateside.
Step 1 – Sexualize the interaction so she knows what game you are playing. Use whatever Game model you want.
Step 2 – In set take stock where you’re at relative to her:
– age
– ethnicity
– nationality
– SES
– style
– scene
– logistics
– relationship status
– your logistics
…
Step 3 – The less “similar” you are to her along these dimensions, or if your/her logistics will suck in the near future, the more you should push for SDLs. If that’s no feasible see # CLOSE
IF SDL…
Step 4 – Implicitly state things like: non-judgmental, anonymity, no jealousy but state these values in the affirmative. You got standards and only high-class people have standards. If she has a BF then imply that you aren’t here to tip over the apple cart. You like the city because everyone has their own life, is super busy, not a big texter etc. This is all about Game Dynamics 2 and 3 from Captain Jack. Game Dynamic 1 was cleared when she hooked. Game Dynamic 4 is what comes afterward.
IF # CLOSE…
Step 4 – Steal the “social consequences” frame from her. These are the spikes with a purpose: attraction in the playful push, she can’t use them against you, and more importantly they are relevant to you/her in this moment. 3 birds with one stone.
You can’t introduce her to your friends or mom (it’s a variation on the elephant in the room):
– she’s too young
– she is from x country or ethnicity
– she is in the wrong scene
…
Why bother with this?
She is going to doing a “social consequences” calculation. Generally speaking we know we aren’t going to be getting too deep into her life (hey we’re r-selected right) but she doesn’t. Hell, we might be the bad boy she tames?
The white guy dating the asian girl…probably because she got to know him and realized social consequences would be low.
For a modification to the LDM
Open > Stack > Vibe > Investment/Spiking AND Probing ?/ Verbal Judo (Frame Stealing/Clearing Game Dynamics) > # CLOSE OR I-Date/SDL
Nash / UKgamer / Blue ++
———————————–
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
I’ll break this down.
———————————–
There are a million things going on here. So first you have to stop and look.
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
So, the girl is picking you up, stating that she will contact you and asking for your available time frames. So let’s first fill in the gaps, because this is a courtship mating ritual
“Her: I will text you [when Im horny]! When are you free [to have sex]?”
Fixed. That context above should dictate how you reply to her at all times. Now let’s figure out what are the walls and what are the openings, and what you like and what you don’t like.
“I will text you”
That’s her being the aggressive initiator. What I like is she’s putting herself available for sex. What I don’t like is that she’s taking control (which usually results in not having sex, because only bottom guy lets her have control like this). Also “I will text you” as a closing statement mean “don’t call me, I will call you”. She’s stating the ball is in her park, she owns this. This is alpha stuff.
“When are you free?”
She’s asking for your schedule and this is how she ends the text, so now the ball is on your park. Put the two things she just did together and understand the balance dynamics.
“I will text you” – that’s a statement, she’s got power, she’s the center, the ball is on her court, that’s action, there’s nothing you can do about it, this is what she WILL do, she’s not asking if she can do it for example, this is finite, high self esteem stuff. Bottom guy doesn’t say “I will text you”, she’s in the top frame.
“When are you free?” is an open ended question, passing the ball, giving you your turn to speak, after she just landed her center. It’s not “when are you free” but “when are you free so I text you [to have sex]”. This line is softening the power grab she just did.
She has a strong center, and a softer sociable persona.
—————————————————
Compare with my default equivalent:
“When are you free? I’ll take you out”
And the fixed one:
“When are you free [to have sex]? I’ll take you out [and fuck your brains out]”
“When are you free?” is a question and bounces the ball to her side, she’ll ask herself when she’s free [to have sex]. The question is socially adept and soft and inviting, but it’s robbed away immediately, that ‘rapport’ is broken by:
“I will take you out”
Note how that’s not a question but a statement. This is what “will” happen. This is the ending part of the communication, so this is NOT soft, NOT socially adept, NOT accomodating, nada.
“when are you free, I’ll take you out” scans the world around for opportunities and then takes it, doubles down when an opportunity arises. That’s what you’re communicating.
The “when are you free” stops being a question, it’s just a softener, a ‘ramp’ for the actual line.
If you only send the “I will take you out” or “Lets meet” now the ball is in her court but you’re being jumpy.
When she replies to the “when are you free” then she’s explicitly agreeing that “I’ll take her out” so that’s compliance, which is then rewarded with a wink and setting logistics. And all this happens in a micro second in real life or text.
So back at her
—————————————————
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
She’s strong, decisive, action taker, but soft, bubbly and socially adept.
The ‘wall’ is that she’s having control, so we’ll ignore or defuse the wall. And the ‘opening’ is that she’s offering sex, so we’ll take that in.
First the other proposed responses:
* * *
Blue’s text.
“Me: I’m flexible with time. When you know you can meet, text me.”
“Im flexible with time” addresses the question so that’s rewarding her. It’s rewarding her because you have attention to her in the form of a ‘yes’
“When you know you can meet, text me.” This has the seed of alpha / top guy on it, and works as a final statement somehow, depending on what happened next. The problem is that this is doing something else:
Mirroring.
Read.
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
“Me: When you know you can meet, text me.”
You’re restating her same statement with your own words. This is a mini tussle. And when a guy mirrors a girl you know he’s adapting to her trying to be the water for her rock, or the vagina for her dick. Don’t. So this line takes her energy but bounces it back at her without taking it anywhere, leading anywhere.
The other problem with the line is it sounds as a closing statement, nothing really can be done after it, it created a mini wall. “when you know you can meet, text me” that’s a goodbye. Her response will be ‘ok’ or if you’re lucky a more enthusiastic ‘I will’.
* * *
Another one, pinging Nash
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
Me: I want to see you…
Me:“Let’s get together Tues at 7… or maybe Friday.”
That above is completely ignoring her.
Now, ignoring her is partially ok, because when you do so you ignore her walls and the parts that you don’t like, which is fine.
But ignoring her also ignores the openings and her arousal spots, which is bad.
The best part about Nash lines is that they state things “I want to see you” is good, followed by logistics “tues blah blah”. But Nash is doing this in isolation, not connected with her. This is frame clash and it will easily devolve into tussle. This is a ramp for tussle.
She basically opened her vagina for him and Nash went to put his dick somewhere else.
Things to ponder.
* * * * * * * * *
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
This isn’t a line that will do it for every girl in every situation.
This is a response for HER.
This isn’t that it’s good to ask questions or say that you’re always free.
This is a TOP FRAME response to HER and where she’s coming from.
HER: high self esteem, decisive, taking reigns, socially adept, pushing us into having sex and making the schedule.
What do we like? the sex offering, the accommodating part of her game. What we don’t like? the lack of control.
“Her: When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free”
This robs away her power to set the logistics. Basically everything is possible. But also the friction has disappeared. Also because this is:
“Her: When are you free [to have sex]?”
“Me: Im always free [to fuck your brains out]”
This is a reward.
Now if you acknowledge that she’s asking for sex, when you put the logistics out of the equation, you can wink to let her know you know what’s happening
“Her: When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free ;-)”
There are a million things being communicated there already.
Now pay attention to this one:
“Her: I will text you! ”
“Me: what do you want to do?”
Do you see how I created a wall?
Why did I create a wall there?
This is going ahead of her game and stopped her
Whatever she had on mind with this line of thinking where she has the power, now she’s got some explanation to do. I welcome your proactivity, so now, girl, bend. First the context:
“Her: I will text you! [to have sex] ”
“Me: what do you want to do?”
This is asking that she shows her hand. She wont like to show her hand. I just became a judge and now I can say yes or no. This little question is a punishment, taylored for her scale. It’s an invitation for her bottom, more subservient frame to show up.
When a girl does this to you, she’s pinging your bottom guy – and your job is to bruise it off. When I do this to this girl, she’ll experience a fraction of a second of powerlessness, she’ll be disarmed, which is exactly what I want to happen when she tries to have the ball on her court and do the shots. More importantly, for her this is contact with ‘top guy frame’, which means she gets aroused, instantly, so her response will be an incomprehensible:
“Her: hahah”
Maybe followed by a more socially tuned logistics thing
So put together:
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
First I welcomed her searching for schedule and her socially tuned being, then I set a wall for her control taking. But all summed up, this is still very ‘hyped’, Im not robbing energy from the interaction but pushing it up. The “always free” ramps into my wall setting. It’s not cut and dry, it was ramped by something very positive, so Im a positive kind of judge. Compare to the reversed version:
“Me: What do you want to do? Im always free”
Can you tell the difference?
I set a wall, but then I open “Im always free”. I state that Im free before I even know what she’s up to, it’s a mix of detached and non interested but cheap and available (which may be PERFECT for a different interaction, just not here)
And the mix:
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
In context, this is just natural conversation. She said two things, I addressed each. She went for her alpha core and stated something then came to the surface being friendly and available, I reacted by taking in her socially soft persona, then set a wall for her alpha core and pinged her bottom girl frame. Because she’s adapted to human interactions, and she just pinged my top guy and I just pinged her bottom girl, what follows is escalation in sexuality, just imagine if this was the following line:
“Her: I will text you! When are you free?”
“Me: Im always free, what do you want to do?”
“Her: hahaha not sure :-)” (wont’ show her hand)
“Me: Im sure we’ll think of something ;-)”
I fuck her raw.
wow
Did this level of detail came to you from extensive practice-experience, or you just downloaded it from somewhere else and simply applied to texting?
I have a huge lag in catching **new** people imposing their frames onto me.
What is the best preventative/profilactic medicine for this ailment?
It’s real life turned into texting (you’re playing the same games IRL). The level of detail comes from paying attention + keeping the context always on.
We’re animals and we don’t know what we’re doing, all the stuff is pre-scripted. But you can A) understand where the biology is pushing you and B) pay attention to the little things that happen and ask yourself what’s the function of each thing in the major scheme of things, both for your own actions and the actions of others
But all this texting is just the same you’ll go through in real life. She’ll play games so will you.
Which game are you playing by ignoring two of my messages addressing student-teacher dynamics?
Which messages are these?
http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/fast-seduction-vs-date-model/#comment-3617:
I’ll send you the panties of the first girl I pull using text-game, sensei! ;-)
http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/fast-seduction-vs-date-model/#comment-3629:
Adopting-learning the top guy frame would be, in a way, yielding to your frame, which – of course – has already happened to a certain extent.
Paradox!
Ah, no to panties, yes to yielding :-)
I don’t see any “student-teacher” messages here, maybe they are in moderation?
Looks like Nash has approved me to post without moderations…
Are you speaking about your own inner moderator? ;D
“I’m here to win, so I only engage people I can win over” is the game you are playing. Couple with “Go West – to “greener” pastures!”
“What is the best preventative/profilactic medicine for this ailment?”
You have to adopt a frame and have a chip on your shoulder about it for a while. You can and do that all the time. Subservient people for example find a way to serve and get bothered when they can’t play the role. Bullies bully, leaders lead. So pick a frame and put an eye on it, and see how people interact with it, who brings you down and how, who pushes you up and how. The more you look at it the more ‘detail’ you’ll see.
We carry a lot of narratives.
Some are good for you some bad for you. We carry a lot of scripts some good some bad – the art is to become this monkey who can play with your own narrative so you, in the meta, get where you want to be, play the games you want to play, with the kind of interactions you want to have.
That’ be my personal goal too.
Adopting-learning the top guy frame would be, in a way, yielding to your frame, which – of course – has already happened to a certain extent.
Paradox!
“I-will-not-be-ignored!”, “Debt-collector”, “You-play-by-my-rules” has been the frame I’ve internalized for quite some time. It hasn’t happened in the top-down-fashion as you prescribe for top guy, but i those frames seem to have outlived themselves. i’ve been applying your top guy frame along with a top-down approach and results, I must say, have been magickal.
Lots of compliance, submission, very short power tussles and much more defined “moments of powerlessness” from the ladies.
thanks, man! I’ll keep you posted.
Coolio
The “why-are-you-ignoring-two-of-my-messages” was the prime example of my biggest sticking point with any asyncronyous mode of communication – be it e-mail, sms, viber, or voice-mail. Something like that simply never happens in person, for I can read body language/micro-expressions extremely well and seeing a person shut the door in front of me or simply walk away is a very clear-inequivical response-sign. Even if there is absolutely no facial-bodily movement, I can feel their emotional shifts once we are in the same auric space.
However on-line – especially with the ladies – especially with the ones I haven’t banged yet – I can’t feel the response and it used to drive me wild. I would chase – but I wouldn’t chase as a beta, I wouldn’t chase validation – I would chase the energetic-social debt of theirs. Even a simbolic payment of attention: “no!” could be enough.
I’m very expressive-responsive IRL and I try to emulate the same with other means of communication. You must have picked up on that with the “Coolio” response and I really-really-really appreciate it.
I yield to you, ma [temporary] master!
;)
Face-to-face – and even on the phone/video-chat – I’m very comfortable taking a pause and it has a great effect on the ladies. “why are you quiet? is there something wrong with me? i’m blushing :-)”. But asyncronuously, a) I respond as soon as I have something to respond with – sometimes even an empty text to acknowledge the receipt of their message b) I used to go wild if they brushed away my ping alltogether. Posting their answer until the time they are in the position to respond I’m cool with – a.k.a. restructuring of their debt to me – it’s the complete unsustantiated unannouced default that used to make me into a debt collector. Unsurprisingly, many women actually got turned on by that…
Yohami, we need your book.
I probably lost 3 girls this last week doing strong pickups but fucking it up over text.
And some other girls I do not know how to handle so I am giving up on them, like these two.
SLIM DANCER:
Me: Hey
Her: Hey
Me: :)
Me: When will we meet, have coffee and talk?
Me: I wan to know you better :)
Her: I don’t know
Her: How are you?
Me: I’m good. Surviving the cold weather. It makes me strong (Strong arm emoji)
Me: Meet me tomorrow?
Her: I won’t be in [City] tomorrow
Her: I live outside the city, close
Her: I used to live in [City] but I moved out 1 week ago
Me: Ok :)
Me: When you’re coming to [City] let me know
19 YEARS OLD SINGER
Me: Hello
Her: Heyy
Me: What is your location?
Her: [Blahblah]
Me: I don’t know where that is. Is that near [My Address]?
Her: No. It’s another city. I rarely go to [City], only by bus.
Me: When can we meet?
Her: I’m shy. It will be awkward.
Me: It’s ok. I will do all the talking and you just listen to me beautiful voice :)
Me: You don’t have to talk.
Her: Maybe
Me: Let’s do it. Improve your social skills girl!
Her: Possible. But I don’t know what to talk about.
—-
She’s a broke 19 years old girl, I was thinking of telling her I’ll pay for her bus, which is me handling logistics, to bring her forth and either have a date and fuck her. But she is being honest in how awkward she is, she almost said no word during the interaction. I only stayed because her eyes lighted up and she was giggling.
And yes, I realize that line of “Improve your social skills girl!” fucks shit up because now it’s not about “let’s meet to fuck”, it’s “let’s meet to improve your social skills”.
You should just stop texting alltogether for a while. Call instead. The proper use of emojis has already been explained-illucidated to you and you still use them to show compliance – not to deepen **your** message.
Via negativa FTW!
Texting is so low cost-low friction, that all of your fidgets show up magnified. Since you meet this girls IRL, go only one step down- to video/voice. I like using voice messages on Viber – if after recording it I feel like I’ve said too much, I just delete it before ever sending it out by “swiping left”.
Calling will be worse.
I’ll either call and she won’t answer, which automatically makes me a bottom guy in her mind.
Or I’ll call and do the same shit I do in text. It’s the same thing, just a different medium.
“Calling will be worse.”
but fucking in person will be better???
And Yohami, please do explain the difference between Top Girl and Top Guy and Bottom Girl and Bottom Guy.
Also how do girls ping bottom guy and top guy, and how we do ping bottom girl.
Instead of asking for more and more info-input, forget about being a daygamer and start applying the information-lessons already provide by yohami here and on rivs blog. just putting all of his writing together will amount to possibly the best book on game where the author doesn’t sit in the ivory tower, but is actually extremely open about his own path.
e.g. https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2016/07/12/yohami-what-are-your-thoughts-on-comfort/ [+comments: https://rivsdiary.wordpress.com/2016/07/17/yohamis-story/%5D
And honestly, Yohami, it’s difficult not to chase and to channel Top Guy when I have 0 lays in 2018.
“And honestly, Yohami, it’s difficult not to chase and to channel Top Guy when I have 0 lays in 2018.”
this is VERY true and to me, it’s one of the key things i have learned in seven years of game/redpill. it’s very hard to fake non-neediness. i was able to bang hot skinny miriam because i had baby E in my back pocket. roissy talks about this in his commandments. actually, CMQ had a good post about the importance of having SOME girl to bang, even if you had to pay for it. that’s real talk right there.
i believe every man needs to have a BPP (back pocket pussy), even if she is a chubby five. if your balls are getting drained regularly, you WILL give off microexpressions and ticks of neediness.
she WILL see it in your eyes.
>> chubby five
Ummmmmm… chubby fives. : ] I love chubby fives.
Actually… not chubby. But “Asian fives”still turn me on. I am very turned on by some random looking girls.
Having a girl… that turns you on… is a good thing… period. For me… that means YOUNGER and TIGHTER (=chaste), but “hotter” is ambiguous for me in terms of what my cock likes.
Some very “average” looking Asian girls inspire the hell out of me. I have a good story coming soon on this topic.
Fucking a girl that doesn’t turn me on… would do nothing for my game. It would lower my inner game, if I could even get hard and do it. It’s not about orgasms… it’s about being turned on, and getting that thing.
It cleaned up my understanding of game when I started “following my hard on.” My COCK IS MY CEO.
That is the only standard a player should care about… does she turn you on. I am more into that standard than even what my eyes tell me.
When it comes to sex…my cock is the final judge.
This is what differentiates-distinguishes you, nash, from other game bloggers-writers. you are pursuing some kind of an inner aesthetics-desire and are somewhat of a conneseur – even though i think you’ve become way too rigid in your m.o. for you own good.
“fuck a chubby/bpp” is different. it’s using women to boost your own male ego-identity **when it is in the deficit**. that’s like giving methadone to a junkie.
PATHETIC!
Riv,
you gotta stop ejaculating alltogether as long as you come from deficit-desperation:
https://infidelityrecoveryinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/The-Enlightened-Sex-Manual-Sexual-Skills-For-The-Superior-Lover-By-David-Deida-Abee.pdf
read chapter 2!
[…] particular, here he talks about the two different models of making a move for […]
“In my experience… girls “hit and run” a lot. We do the “r-selected” pickup. We fast seduce. We do, in fact, sometimes fuck these girls. And sometimes they stick around… but very often they are “one and done.” They fuck… and then “ghost” (as the kids say). I’m curious about that.
I know the prevailing myth wisdom is that men “pump and dump.” I am sure that happens a lot, but that is not what I see. I know almost no men that tell me stories like that. And I am talking about guys in the community that I care enough about to be in regular contact with (which is not everyone). Those guys, would often like to see the girl again, post sex. And often, the girls disappear (for a very wide range of reasons). Not always so… but often.”
‘“Fuck her as soon as possible. That is the best way to get a girlfriend. — RSD Julien”
“I rarely have sex that involves alcohol these day (because I have some weird radar where I find girls that don’t drink).”
“So today… IOI from a conservative girl. I stop her. She is surprised and uncertain. We chat briefly. I get her to relax and take the stop. I move closer. I give her the eyes. I ask why she is in the neighborhood… what she is doing now? She says she is looking for a cafe. I offer to take her to one… she is a little shocked at how fast I am moving, but she agrees.
Instant date. We sat. We talked. We drank milky tea.
And… I started to give her sexual SOIs… saying that she is very feminine. And that I liked her lips. I held her hand. She was very compliant, even as I introduced sex. And I told her I want to kiss her.
Since I don’t want to burn a whole prime hour of daygame time on an idate-to-nowhere, I push it forward. I mention dinner… neither of us are that hungry… so…
I offer to take her to my place. For tea, I say. I tell her I’ll kiss her, of course. And then… later… I’ll take her for dinner.
That was my offer. This was all totally smooth and natural for me. Felt great. This was fast seduction. You may see a million mistakes in that… but I was confident and congruent. And she had a great experience.
And she fucking really considered it.
It was on in that moment. And my cock was at half-chub… which rarely happens to me unless I’m in the process of making out and having sex. And I could see the “hamster” in her mind spinning… she is a conservative girl… she doesn’t do this… but she was thinking about it… It was glorious.
But she said “no.” She said, “I can’t…” She was in a little bit of pain at that moment. I enjoyed the whole thing.”