I read an ebook this week and it inspired a couple of thoughts about game. I love talking about game, so here goes.
This started when Rivelino’s blog (congrats, man!) had a quick reference to a guy called Goldmund. That name sounded familiar, and it was, because Krauser did a couple of episodes of the Womanizer’s Bible podcast series where he interviewed that guy.
After Riv’s post, I checked out Goldmund’s blog and thought his recent post was really good. Nice little tactical piece.
Great post. I was impressed. Some interesting observations in there. And I like his little tip, it’s good… But I mostly like the understanding of the psychology behind that technique. The psychological roots for why that tactic might be effective.
I was poking around his site and I saw his “books.” I was curious about his Advanced Game Techniques. The table of contents was interesting, so I bought it… Something light to read on my phone.
As I was telling Cobratantula… I like to study.
While I was interested enough to study him, I am conflicted about Goldmund, and it started with Krauser’s podcasts.
The podcasts were… meh. I was surprised Krauser was featuring him, as Goldmund isn’t what I would call a daygamer. I still don’t get why Krauser gave him that forum, and that much time.
It’s been over a year since I listened to those, but all I remember from Goldmund at the time was that he gets in fights fairly often during nightgame (as I recall), and that he talked a lot about “camera game.” I’m sure they that wasn’t his emphasis, but that’s all that stuck to my mind.
That, and the thought, “this guy is not a daygamer.” Not by my rigid standard. And while the “camera game” stuff goes on during the day, I am clearly judgmental about the camera game bit… beyond Krauser’s interview, this is something Goldmund talks about that on his blog and in his ebook.
“While showing her the picture and talking about it, you can also exchange information, get her number or email, tell her you will send a copy and let her know if you use it for anything.”
Tactically, maybe this works. But I don’t like anything about it.
I’m not doubting it as a technique — although I’d put this in the category of “tricks for beginners,” not the game of advanced men. This is not the path of a confident man. And I doubt the men that choose this path over engaging with the woman directly. That’s my POV.
I am really not into camera game. It’s one step away from fake “porn try-outs” as a strategy for getting laid. Low-end game. Tom Torerro has called this stuff “snake seduction.” It’s weak, using the camera as a gimmick to get in there… putting the camera between you and the girl… the stuff of lesser men.
For men that have a genuine passion for the camera, this could be legit. Very legit. It sounds like Goldmund himself is sincerely interested in photography, and good for him. But for most men that follow Goldmund down this path, the camera is something to hide behind. Goldmund is selling it as such — as a “trick” — and real photographers wouldn’t think of it like that.
Fundamentally it’s an “excuse” to approach. And while I know Krauser respects the hustle, I was surprised he would feature a guy that specializes in this kind of indirect game.
Our brother Riv photography is part of his overall game, but Rivelino is a genuine artist. I believe that art is part of him first, part of his game second. It’s art first, then dragging the girls into that world. That is real. That might be using art/camera skill as a DHV, but not as a gimmick.
It’s part of human nature to look for an “easy way.” A “cheat.” This is a normal thing to want, but corrosive to actually being a high-value man, for several reasons:
High value men often take the “smart” path, but aren’t constantly weaseling after some hack to avoid doing the work of life. Men are willing to do the work that greatness requires. If you must, think of it from the POV of a high-value girl… does she want the guy that has the game set on “cheat mode?” I don’t think so.
And then, “snake seduction” techniques are ways of avoiding being direct. As you approach a girl because you’re “working on your photos” you can hide your dick. That’s weak. And the guy himself knows he’s being sneaky… Which is bad for his inner game. That’s the main reason why snake seduction is corrosive… It reinforces the sense that you are not in fact entitled, and have to sneak your way into her panties… like a thief… like a low-value man.
Finally, these kinds of hacks create incongruence. You want to fuck the girl, she knows it, but you hide that (like my point above). Girls know what’s up, so that kind of incongruence will trigger their “faker” radar. In addition to the inner game issues above, that’s an outer game issue with snake seduction.
And then, if course… you have to transition to direct and a sexual vibe at some point. So as these kinds of men sniff around for their “easy” route, they create more difficulty for themselves down the road.
Opening direct is powerful for a man, both at the level of inner game (entitlement) and outer game (boldness, intent,++).
This doesn’t mean being verbally direct (although that is fine, in many cases). The directness can be in the look you give her while you’re saying something “tame.” But when you’re going properly direct, both you and the girl are clear what is going on, no matter what kind of “birdsong” is coming out of your mouth.
“It helps your inner game over time, to do the R-section route, because it gives you a congruency and authenticity, right? Because you ARE going out to try to get laid.”
“So you game in a way that is consistent with that. You communicate with the girl consistent with that.”
If you’re going out and trying to get laid, and then you’re doing a method that sort of like hides it, or blunts it, that will introduce long-term incongruency and inauthenticity in you. Which means, on a very subtle level, which a girl might not be able to articulate, she just feels it’s a bit off. And that’s gonna hurt. It’s gonna hurt your results.”
— Krauser, from Daygame Overkill
Krauser is exactly right here… but I don’t think it’s “very subtle.” Your congruency as a man is a sign of your value.
The point Krauser is making here is a very big deal. Being congruent with your presentation as a bold and sex-worthy man is lot of what separates the daygame-zombies from men that women trust.
I assume Goldmund actually has game. Sounds like he has real nightgame skills, at least. And that he could give off an effective vibe… Even with an oblique approach via snakey camera game or something else.
And he might very well have that “seducer’s look” as he offers to take a girls photo that would make his approach more direct than it seems. If it’s working, I bet that is what he’s doing. His mouth is saying “photo” and his vibe is saying “bedroom.” If that’s true, this is not really snake seduction.
My concern isn’t Goldmund sex life. I think he is credible. My critique is around men that want his kind of success… And get sucked into the idea of “cheats” as a way to get better with women.
Guys that sell the “camera” instead of selling themselves… that’s a mistake. And if what you really want is pussy, then it’s lying to sell “photos.” And the girls will smell that… and it won’t work in any significant way.
I’m not worried about “bottom guy” lying to girls… girls will filter them out before they ever hear the lie. But if you want to become a man of game, don’t erode your foundation with these inner game issues. Sell you. Sell it with pride. Don’t try to cheat.
I read his book. It’s pretty good. It’s short, but for men that like to study, I’m always curious what a man with experience in game thinks is “advanced.”
I won’t give away any of guts of his content (he gives away some of it, when you sign up for his newsletter)…
But I will point out three ideas that came to my mind — as an “intermediate guy” — when I read his advanced techniques.
Goldmund does a post on “Poaching Online Dates in Real Life.”
“Personally, I like to wait for the guy to show up and tell him I was keeping his seat warm and he should be ready to “try his best” or that I am going to be their chaperone for the night. Then I tell the two to have fun before I leave with a knowing smirk at the girl.”
This is my favorite part of his ebook. It’s all about that smirk… And what it means.
That smirk is Goldmund reminding the girl that they just had an interaction as members of the Secret Society. The other guy, of course, is not a member.
“A secret society exists. Around 52% of people on this earth are a part of it. In the 52%, 50% are women, 2% are men.”
— RSD Tyler
Goldmund’s article in his book is essentially a contemporary example of the Secret Society (SS) at work. The girl in his story is in the SS, and Goldmund knew this… Because all women are in the SS. And the poor bastard meeting her for the date is most-likely not in the SS… Because most men, almost all of them, are not. But unlike most men, Goldmund is in the SS… And that smirk is him and the girl exchanging a moment that the other guy can see, but isn’t a part of, because he doesn’t “get it.”
“The 49% of men who live outside of the secret society don’t understand the mental model of attraction of people who are in the secret society.”
— RSD Tyler
Goldmund’s tactic is great and I like it. There is a huge opportunity to “poach” dates. Personally, I’d want to clean that up a bit and say that the girl on the date is raising her hand, asking for a “good experience.” The online guy probably can’t give her that… Most men cannot.
Krauser talks about stealing another man’s lunch. That’s close to what Goldmund is saying with the word “poach.” Krauser also talks about R-selected players being “service providers” of adventure sex… I think that’s more like what is going on here.
A member of the Secret Society is much more likely to give the girl a “good experience.” The player is more likely than the online chump to give the girl a proper dose of adventure sex. So it’s not a “poach,” it’s an upgrade for the girl.
This is the upside of hypergamy. The manosphere blames girls for this kind of thing, but this is a good example of how it actually works… hypergamy is a woman saying “yes” to a better off. But the better offer comes from a better man.
I believe that, and like that better. It’s cleaner.
In another chapter he writes about “Looking Bored During the Conversation and then Striking back with Attention.” The chapter is fine but it was this bit that made me take notice:
“The best way I’ve found to do this in our day and age is to start talking about how guys are getting more and more timid as time goes on. They don’t have a backbone, don’t stand up for themselves, and are acting more like girls than men.”
I liked this section because this is something I already do, so my ego approves. And while Goldmund may like this as a tactic for training a girl to stay on sexual/interesting conversational topics (which is good game), I like it as it sets a frame of masculine/feminine on the date.
That’s a hot frame.
I don’t really talk about how guys have no “backbone.” I set the frame that women like masculine men. And I model that. And that I like feminine women. And this conversation can make for a great date, but it can also set the tone for the relationship.
“Then you can say how much you like it when girls are really feminine and sweet, how much of a turn-on it is.”
When he talks about this line above I think he and I are on the exact same page. And I would add that giving her positive feedback immediately after she does something feminine is more powerful than just talking about femininity in general.
I’ll discount Goldmund’s tactic here as being almost a “routine.” I think the topic has more potential than that.
And since we’re talking about “advanced” guys, I’ll bring up Captain Jack. And I smile when I mention him. Perhaps you’ve heard of Sinn? Sinn is a very solid player, in the first generation, studied under Mystery. I like John Sinn.
Captain Jack is to John Sinn, what Yohami is to me. When Sinn talks about “the guy that really gets it,” he talks about Captain Jack… Very much like I would about our friend Yohami (“Yohami is always right”). And when I think of setting frames, Captain Jack is the guy.
(Although Fadar from LiveSystems has a talk on frames that is badass… Fadar doesn’t have enough exposure. He is very good.)
Okay, enough about that. Last one.
This last note is about his chapter “I’m Looking for a Place to Stay in Town.” He has a little trick there that is in the same vein as the one in the blog post I linked to above. But the part of this chapter that I like is his comment about “good girls.”
I liked it… as so many guys in game are always talking about “good girls” (*cough* *cough* Rivelino… ). We talk about it in the comment section here sometimes.
Here’s the line…
“One thing about ‘good’ girls, I’m talking about the ones who aren’t overt sluts, are pleasant to talk to, and for whom one night stands are not normal…”
He is making a point about something else, which is not that interesting to me, but I like that definition of “good girls.”
I don’t even care about the concept “good girls,” but we all know how often it comes up, and that’s pretty good starting point for a definition. Good job, Goldmund.
Okay. So this has been a mix of a teaser about his ebook and a strange meandering review. I love talking about game, Goldmund must also, and it’s fun to kick these ideas around.
In general, I feel the way about Goldmund that I did after Krauser’s interview… he’s not really my style. But he seems like he has a lot of experience. I have no doubt he gets a lot of pussy. And in our world, that’s the final standard. Check him out… You might learn from him.