I have a million posts I want to write but I had a fresh idea today so I’m going to spit it out. It combines two bits of content that have inspired me. The timing of the post is based on a piece of writing from a guy I just came across that calls himself Red Coco. The second piece of inspiration is some thoughts from Krauser where he talks about how men are ranked in terms of Sexual Market Value (SMV). I am going to combine these concepts with some other themes that have been on my mind.
Let’s start with Red Coco’s post today:
“On a timeline, I would argue it is better to start off as a Beta and then grow into a learnt Alpha.”
— Red Coco
Now if that sounds like a controversial claim to you, I would agree. But I like it as a starting point for a conversion and I am using it as such.
As I see it, that is not a click-bait statement for Red Coco. He wrote an interesting piece about some of the value he has to offer that he attributes to his Beta days, and how he can access that value now as he transitions into being a player. He argues that he might not have achieved those qualities (or some of his insights into relationship dynamics) if he had started out “as a natural.” It’s a sincere piece and an uncommon POV. It’s worth a read.
I like a lot about what Red Coco wrote, but I disagree that we are better off starting out as Betas. Many (most?) of us will in fact begin the player’s journey there, by default. But I think there are handicaps to having ever spent time in the Beta-class of men.
But before I get into it, I want to transition into the material from Krauser.
I am in Tokyo now, just starting a daygame trip. Two years ago at this same time, I read Krauser’s book Adventure Sex. I never posted about it, but I took a lot of notes. It’s not a “textbook” (it’s a memoir), but Krauser is a natural teacher, and he works some lecture into his stories of sex on the sidewalk.
He had some notes on Sexual Market Value (SMV) that stuck with me:
“The pick-up community is obsessed with Sexual Market Value. This theory assigns men and women positions on a totem pole.”
— Krauser, Adventure Sex
In that section (the beginning of Chapter 32), he starts in about how we rank women and men. It’s the “1 to 10” scale for women. He works through the scale from 5s to 10s, doing a great job articulating his criteria for what a “7” is (“These girls are young and pretty enough to create a stir in your trousers so long as they look easy to catch”) or an “8” (“you’ll think ‘bloody hell, I can’t believe I’m fucking a girl this hot'”). Good stuff.
“Men naturally rank women into very fine gradations because that’s what we’re designed to do.”
Right. At least in the world of structured game, that is exactly how we talk about SMV. Not everybody agrees on what that scale means. There are different scales. But that is true enough.
Where it gets more interesting for me (and connects us with Red Coco’s theme) is where Krauser starts to talk about how women rate men:
“Women don’t rank themselves that way and when it comes to women rating men, they only really have three categories: invisible, dateable, and hot.”
That ^ is close to hitting the spot, well done.
If Krauser borrowed that from somewhere, let me know, but I’ve never heard that any place else. It’s not the groupings that are interesting, but more about the gaps between them (we’ll get to that later).
I had to look these quotes up for this post. In my head they were GAMMA/BETA/ALPHA. And I have another addition… TOP GUY. I’ll use my labels, because we already use these in Men’s Culture, but we’ll use Krauser’s definitions (because they are very good).
GAMMAs and the THE INVISIBLEs:
“The great mass of men are simply invisible, like furniture or cattle. They exist only to do the girl’s homework at college, help her with her shopping, fix a tyre, pay taxes, and defend the borders. Most men are nothing but pack horses, and thus sexually invisible. That’s not to say women harbour any ill intention towards them, they just treat them as non-sexual creatures, beasts of burden.”
Ouch. This hurts to read because it’s true. Most men are unfuckable. Maybe 80%. That’s harsh. But it’s true. It’s redpill to see that.
Let’s move on.
BETAs and THE DATEABLEs:
“Next, there’s a much smaller group, maybe fifteen percent of the male population, who are ‘good enough’ to date. These men have some readily observable value: reasonable height, decent looks, good job, decent fashion. If sex was all about checklists, these men’s resumes would get them an interview. They’re just uninspiring. When a girl really needs to get herself a boyfriend, she’ll consider one of these men if he can distinguish himself in some way, or if she just hangs around him long enough to grow to like him.”
Krauser is getting into value now, even as he is a bit shallow and surface-level about it.
But this is a category that hasn’t been described that often, actually. Which is significant, as most men studying game are fighting to get into this category. Most of my life, I was in this group, or trying to be.
I had a lot of relationships when I was younger. I am okay to look at, but certainly not “hot.” But I am smart, bold in some ways, reasonably athletic, very hard working, artsy. I had “observable value.” Girls wanted me for a boyfriend. And that worked pretty okay for me until I was over 30 and my social scene was smaller and girls didn’t fall into my orbit. At that point… I needed the skills to both approach and be attractive while doing so. I needed all that and more.
That is when I found game. And game helped me stay in this grouping… I was a “boyfriend” many more times as I was able to implement game.
And it wasn’t until I found game and really came to understand the Sexual Market Place that I realized that despite my series of happy relationships with girlfriends… I wasn’t really all that good with girls at all.
I didn’t know “what I didn’t know.” I was unconsciously unconscious. And when I realized I had a lot to learn, there was tremendous opportunity as I moved forward. It was daygame that gave me the arena to test my skill and push past the Beta/boyfriend stage.
(It’s a little early in the post, but while I’m at it… Viva Daygame.)
I like Krauser’s definition of this grouping of men. And I’ll expand it some:
Many active players live in what I might call the “VIP section” of the Beta/Dateable grouping. They are like the royalty of this class, above and beyond the rest, clearly distinct from the more average boyfriend/Betas.
If you’re approaching a lot (or engaging online successful), getting dates, making out, getting “one new lay per month,” you are like uber-boyfriend material in terms of SMP (you don’t have to want a relationship, we’re talking about what she sees). At this level, I would say you are “situationally Alpha,” but not Alpha at resting state. It’s your action that gives you some of the privileges of Alphaness… you have to work it.
I know “work at it” well. I am the “hardest working man in daygame” (© Nash 2019). That is not bragging, not at all. My hard work is your proof I’m not a “Hot” guy. If I was a proper resting Alpha, or a true Hot guy… I wouldn’t have to work nearly this hard. I am fine with all this. I’m doing great. But it’s true.
ALPHAs and HOT GUYS:
I think there is a level above this stage, but this is the last of Krauser’s categories as he presented them in his book:
“The ‘hot’ guys are somewhere between two and five percent of the population. They are somewhat attractive to most women, and each hot guy has his own demographic of women who finds him very attractive. The basis of their hotness is normally good looks, but it can also be fame, status, charisma, or lifestyle. The last five years of my life could be seen as a project to infiltrate this top-tier. For a while I bashed my head against the walls, then I’d get let in for short periods, and finally I made my home there.”
Proper Alphas… like you walk into the room and lots of people look at you. People follow your lead without a lot of arm-twisting. You get respect easily, and most importantly… you get sexual compliance. Not like “your GF lets you fuck her whenever you want”… but like your friend’s GF wants to fuck you. Waitresses write their number in your bill. Girls give up the number easily, return your messages consistently, and rarely flake for dates. This is the Chad state.
I bet most of the guys in this category are reasonably good looking AND have other “observable value.” (None of this has anything to do with cash. That is closer to a boyfriend trait, where she chooses you for the side-dishes you offer, not for who you are.)
I will venture into Bragging Country for a second and say I have had flashes of this stage. At least three times in 2018 I had solid Girl Tornadoes spinning (in Tokyo last year, that Spring when I returned home to the US, and again in Shanghai). I was approaching a lot. I had tons of active leads (adding new ones every day). I was dating a lot. I was fucking new and existing girls. I was “high” on game. And that made my vibe spiral up. The “Matthew Principle” kicked in, and because I already had “more,” I got “more.” Drunk on serotonin… everything I did worked better.
That ^ is the sexual life of a Hot Guy. Maybe it felt slightly better for me, as it was all conscious and intentional on my part (which is getting at Red Coco’s point, but hold on).
“If my vibe slips then my hold on the bottom rung of the Hot Guy ladder begins to slip too.”
Here ^ Krauser is saying something I know very well. For me, I was “Middle Dateable” most of my life. Game moved me closer to “Top Shelf Dateable.” I can fight my way into “Minor Hot Guy” status, but it is always temporary for me. Again I am okay with this.
Guys aren’t really on a “1 to 10” scale (more on why, in a minute). Girls will always like some guys more than others (even within the same category), of course, but I like Krauser’s “three buckets.” Like a lot of Krauser analysis, this matches what I see in my own “first hand” experience in the Sexual Market Place.
Cool. This is a great view into SMV.
That is the background I wanted to lay out before I go after Red Coco’s assertion that we might all be better in the end if we started off as Beta.
“On a timeline, I would argue it is better to start off as a Beta and then grow into a learnt Alpha. When you come from a bad place – like being a fat kid – then you hope to never return there. And when you do inadvertently return there, you know the surrounds, the vibe, the feeling of being there…”
— Red Coco
I really like his post. It’s an unusual perspective in a community where most perspectives are well-worn with repetition.
As for that line that we would be better off starting out as Betas, it’s sort of a moot point, as most of us will be Beta (or worse) anyway. So maybe his POV has practical value even if I don’t like the assertion I highlight here.
Anyway… he says he wrote his piece as he sees a natural friend of his struggling with relationship management:
“I write this because my neighbour is a natural Gamer.. he recently embarked on a relationship with a Spanish girl and has the face of a man who does not know how to navigate the polarity required to keep her in orbit but not lose his own trajectory. He doesn’t know what it’s like to slip into a long-term relationship, how to deal with frame weakening, and what it’s like banging the same chick over and over again.”
I see what Red Coco is aiming at. And I know he is trying to develop a larger point, but I think he is conflating his neighbor’s “surface attraction skills” with a man that “really knows women.” There is a difference between being able to “begin deals” and being able to manage them. It is not only a different experience, but also a difference in mindset.
Krauser’s SMV scale for men isn’t really about managing girls. That’s not it’s focus, it’s a more simplistic scale than that. But this is an interesting point to jump-off into the characteristics that I think Red Coco is pointing to… that is, real understanding of relationship dynamics, women, and female psych.
And I think we can tie those qualities back to SMV categories as well. I think they are correlated.
I was originally going to comment on Red Coco’s blog that the scale of “Gamma/Beta/Alpha” as it pertains to SMV is not a spectrum. This is the point that Krauser adds to that scale that I think is particularly interesting:
“It’s tempting for a would-be player to obsess about microlevel changes in his value, as if upgrading himself from a 7.4 to a 7.6 will affect his sex life. That’s a fallacy based on projecting the male 1-10 system onto women. The real challenge for a player is to jump from invisible to dateable, and then dateable to hot guy. There are only two thresholds to cross and it means the difference between involuntary celibacy and a steady girlfriend, then from a girlfriend to lots of adventure sex.”
This ^ is a hot concept. Very well done. And this is what I couldn’t forget after I read it. Excellent.
He is talking about a “JUMP.” That’s not an “optimization” or “tuning” of your SMV. It’s not “inching your way up”… it’s a QUANTUM LEAP. And I think that is a very important point in understanding SMV.
Women CAN be “incrementally” better than others, in that “bigger tits” or a “better smile” can make us more interested and hustle a bit harder. The game of seduction is on us, so the primary drivers of making it work are on us, not the girls. So marginal gains by girls might inspire us. But as it’s on us to start the game, those bits about women aren’t essential. If a woman can follow a man’s lead, the game can begin… even if the surface rewards for a man are +/- a point or two in one direction or another.
But for a man, there are QUANTUM LEVEL skills that can’t be “almost-ed.” There is no “close” in masculinity. There is no “close” in being a leader. You can’t be “almost convincing” when it comes to her spreading her thighs.
This is why the classic Beta/Alpha thing is so persistent. Those “jumps” as Krauser calls it make the all the difference. They are distinct categories, not small tweaks. If you can make the jump… you can have the rewards.
This is why many very attractive men can get a girlfriend, but can’t create choice with women on the fly. They are surface hot, but lack the real drivers that really successful men possess. It is why men with money can find a girl that will spend time with them (sometimes), but it doesn’t at all mean they will “get what they want” from those women. Those men become cash-machines for gold diggers (some of them in the context of marriage) and get worked over.
Hooking the girl – through good looks or cash – is a weak start, unless you have the skills to manage her psychology once you have her. Catching a snake is one thing. Enjoying it without being bitten is quite another.
So back to Red Coco.
He does a great job of acknowledging some of the “side dishes” associated with wrangling women. How accumulating various kinds of value can make you more attractive on the front end, but also can add depth in the context of a long-term relationship.
I hear him saying that men that have been in the “boyfriend box” a few times know what it’s like to feel a girl chip away at a man’s frame. They can see the warning signs. They might have some skills in detection, if not control. A lot of that is true.
I know what that is like in my own life.
In the last 10 years I had two serious girlfriends where I lived with both of them (very briefly). They chipped away, despite my education in game. I could see it. I could deflect some of it, counter other parts, shock-and-awe her back into my frame… but the “betatization” of relationships is real. I wasn’t able to hold it back with those girls. And as I wasn’t that into them (and particularly that behavior), I chose to get out. My education and my frame weren’t quite what they needed to be… but I was wise enough to know I use boundaries to get back to a good place, a place I knew I could be happy(er)… which was single.
It wasn’t hard. I ended those relationships, got free, got happy. As the song goes… there are 50 ways to leave your lover.
But Red Coco is talking about a skillset that works within the context of an LTR. And I admire that investigation. Which is why I wrote this post.
Red Coco explores the idea that starting Beta can prepare you to function more successfully in longterm relationships. I was inspired by his thinking, but no… I don’t think that is true.
I don’t think being Beta helps, precisely because of the those QUANTUM LEAPS between categories. Those leaps are based on skills and qualities that the previous category fundamentally does not possess. The differences define the categories themselves.
Beta’s learn a lot of bad habits that are hard to shake off. So starting there… will mean it takes years to get even middling success, as you “leak” Beta and girls can smell it, instantly disqualify you. Those Beta-tells push you down a quantum category… back to Beta… and barely fuckable, if fuckworthy at all.
We see this as otherwise “cool players” hook a girl, but they “like her too much,” and they stop running good game. That is a Beta-tell. That is a bad habit of a man that spent too much time in Beta Country and slips back into those patterns in moments of weakness. Once she see Beta… you don’t lose “a point,” you lose a whole leap of status. You’re busted from hero back down to Beta, and then… it’s gets worse and quickly.
For contrast, I’ll tell a story of an old friend of mine. We’ll call him The General.
The General is a piece of work (an imperfect man), but he is not the slightest bit Beta. He can’t imagine thinking that way. He is packed with flaws and many women would laugh at him, but he has always had tremendous control of women, access to women, he can make it happen (not with every woman, but with some girl) any time, any place. He is a proper Natural. He is the same way in business. This goes beyond surface level qualities of “catching” a prospect (be it a woman or a business client). The General is successful on the front end and also has the management skills and behavioral traits that cannot be faked, traits that hold together long-term success.
The General can display HONEST SIGNALS that are proof to many around him that he is in the category of ALPHA, even if he is not particularly Hot Guy. He is a bit short, bald, and kind of fat. But, he can pull with the volume of Hot Guy (if not the quality, but sometimes there too). And then he can run laps around guys that can only attract, as he is a natural Alpha and can control women via his own psychology and knowledge of theirs.
He is also a bit of tyrant. And I think that actually, totally serves his marriage. I have a side-theory that tyrants have the best marriages. Tyrant + restraint + benevolence, that’s the formula. I’m speculating, I’m not married… but that is how you keep the betatization process at bay. But I digress.
I don’t think most Beta’s will ever learn to be like my friend. Not even close. When they try, they will look like they are LARPing (= playacting and incongruent), and they’ll get rejected (rightfully so), or have short-terms gains that don’t serve them or their girls in the long-term.
Much better to start Alpha (which is not a choice for most guys, so this is theoretical) or… come from a family with an Alpha father (or an Alpha culture, etc) that instills this kind of Alpha thinking in you, so you default back to it (based on your upbringing)… even in hard times.
Now I’ll hat-tip to Yohami.
Yohami introduced the concept of TOP GUY to me here in this blog. Top Guy (as I see it) is a fourth category for male SMV I would add to Krauser’s totem pole. It’s above and beyond “hotness” (with that label, Krauser clouds the water a bit).
“Hotness” sounds like physical attractiveness, which is almost meaningless for a guy like me. He adds charisma, fame and lifestyle, but again, not good enough for what gives a man “hand” in a relationship. If you need to spend your time talking about how it’s all about hotness or looks, I think you’re a serious “junior leaguer” and I can’t be bothered to try to convince you otherwise (Full disclosure: I wasted some time doing that this week, and I’m bitter about it).
Looks help… yeah, yeah, yeah. Super boring, low-fidelity point. Swagger (an Alpha trait) trumps looks by a wide margin. A good looking Beta isn’t nearly as attractive as a less “hot” guy with serious swag. And above looks and swag is applied psychology. Mindset, yeah… which is byproduct of a man’s psychology. The player’s own psych (“inner game”) is crucial for Top Guy. And his knowledge of the intricacies of the minds of women.
Top Guy is all that. Looks are almost irrelevant for Top Guy. His swag and his insight into the churning gears of the SMP are what take him beyond hero (let’s say, a relatively successful PUA) into Super Hero – a man that not only has choice upfront with women, but can wrangle them once he has dragged them into his world.
I am no expert in Top Guy. I have had “Top Guy” moments, as I talked about above. When Krauser says he has fought his way into “Hot Guy” category, I think he is saying he has learned some aspects of the life of Top Guy (certainly more than me).
And I think most Top Guys are born, not made (most of them). Even if those skills lay dormant and never “activate their potential.”
Others are made. Like Yohami. I believe that he is Top Guy and wasn’t always. He says so.
I think I have had flashes of Top Guy… because Yohami schooled me so hard (he molded my psychology), and because I have APPLIED IT (this is not about memorizing theories). I have endlessly more to learn. But I make the jump up into Top Guy (always temporarily), particularly when I am working hard and have tons of options (and the Daygame Gods will it so). And then I slip back down into a productive Sigma lifestyle for most of the rest of the time.
Being Beta will never give you Top Guy insight. So you will essentially fight fires (or distract the girl from setting them), but never deal the root cause. She will fuck with a Beta. And fuck with him more aggressively every time he shows his “Bottom Guy” nature.
This was a big part of what Yohami was trying to teach. When you flash Bottom Guy at her… you drop down a quantum leap and you are really in trouble. A lot of the tools you learn in that phase of your life are half-baked recipes that highlight ingredients, but are really… nothing at all. And she knows it. So she works you out of your job (and her life).
It’s how nature intended it to be.
Being Beta may give you insight/motivation that will help you strive to actuate Top Guy… but anything remotely Beta, is the antithesis of Top Guy. Those worlds don’t coexist well at all.
To make it personal again… I don’t know that I could ever run a proper marriage. Perhaps as I have too much in my Beta past. I can run very solid relationships these days, full ROMANTIC REDPILL, but the best tool I have when things get rough is cut it off and start over. Short of that, I control a lot of the negotiation these days by controlling my time (I don’t give her too much), which means anything domestic is out.
I don’t want The General’s life, but I really admire the mettle of that man. He is a traditional guy, one that has had a ridiculously hedonistic backstory, but settled down, and now runs a business, raises two boys, and wrangles his wife (including keeping their sex life functional… which is almost all him, it’s amazing… no way a Beta could do what that man does).
And based on both genetics and his influence, I bet his son’s will have a better shot at Top Guy relationships than most. And certainly more than aspiring Beta’s can hope to know.
The game is played in psychology. And you learn each lesson via your own personal reference experiences. You can’t even begin to earn those reference experiences as an invisible Gamma (you can’t get girls to play). And Betas and The Dateables can earn reference experiences, but often the wrong ones. They learn what it is like to be seen as “high functioning” Beta. That is still a flavor of Bottom Guy.
No, I don’t think starting Beta has many advantages.
Alpha is the place to start (as Yohami would insist), as all of your incoming references are as a man that is seen and treated as Alpha. You learn the right habits… right from the beginning. You always see yourself from the right POV. And so do the girls.
May we all find the balance, the balls, and the boldness to inspire women to see us as Alpha (even if that is concentrated into the limited time we are with those girls). And if we’re good… tastes the fruit of the Top Guy lifestyle. It is from that “upward spiral” that the world opens up.
Until then… may the sidewalk be full of inspiring lovely girls. May the interactions be spicy. May we all be entertained.