Notes for Beginner Daygamers || Hanging Out with Root
This is a post that tries to answers some beginner daygamer questions. It’s rough and raw and rambly… but it shares my experience.
One notable part of this trip for me has been hanging out with Root. Root is daygamer, and has been my wingman this week here in Tokyo. It’s has been excellent to share the sidewalks with him.
I met Root in a Starbucks, my first week here, when I had a cold, and was still too sick to get my approaches started. He and another guy were talking about girls and game. I thought Root was the other guy’s coach, actually. So I asked. Told him I love talking about game and I couldn’t help but overhear their conversation. Good chat, we exchanged WeChat contacts. I offered to take him out on the sidewalk, which he hadn’t done before.
Meanwhile… I have gotten some emails from other guys that read this blog asking about my recommendations for getting started in daygame. A guy I will call Howard and I exchanged an email or two (You know who you are. Most of this post is based on your questions. Thanks, man.). And another guy I’ll call James (Didn’t reply to you yet, James, but this post is for you too, and has your questions in it).
It’s been cool to get some email. But I’d rather put those responses here where they can serve more of us, than try to do it one at a time via email.
Back to Root… so cool to watch that guy show real interest. He has shown up four times on the street with me in the last week. I told him I’d share anything I know, but he had to promise he’d do some approaches, and he has! He’s not bad at all. I’m impressed. He is approaching and stopping cute girls on the street. He is also very smart, and asking excellent questions. It’s been a real pleasure.
Root is going to be awesome. I’m very happy to be around to demo some approaches for him and push him toward next steps I think will help his game. I’m also sharing some of my wipe-outs with him, including talking to him about a really awkward date I had that went wrong the other night. The game has its ups and downs.
It’s been cool to coach a bit… but it’s also been very cool to have him as my wing. He has seen me get blown out. But he also saw me take four sets of contacts in a row yesterday, in some pretty hot sets… the last one, I held her little 21 year old hand for as long as I wanted. She turned 21… on Monday. I’ve watched him stop girls, get blown out too, but also look very natural most of the time.
Root, this is going to work for you. You’re gonna have fun with this. And you’re gonna get laid.
I want to share. I am not a formal coach, but I want to help my brothers. Daygame is about having girls and wet pussy in our lives… but as my friend Riv says, it is also about comradery. About helping each other out.
That means me helping Root. Just like Runner, and Yohami, and more recently Stealth, have helped me. Face to face and via the comments here.
With that said, below is a conversation I put together based mostly on the questions and comments Howard sent me. I am posting this here for him, but also for other guys that might want a peek at this kind of conversation. I hope some of this is helpful. This is my POV, from where I sit on this path, today, as an “intermediate” daygamer, and a man that loves women.
I have a lot to learn. And much of this may be wrong. But this is where I’m at today.
Okay… here are the notes from my conversation with Howard:
>> What do you recommend for someone interested in Daygame?
>> I’m interested in a good guide from approach to securing a good phone number that will followup up and meet. I’m good with the meet and after that.
For a basic overview with some real detail, maybe check out the Daygame Blueprint from Daygame.com. If you like to study, that is a good resource that goes thru the basic model, with hours of demos and talk about daygame from the London Daygame Model (LDM).
^ That is “how to.”
Also… check out Tom Torero’s beginner daygame video. It’s free, and pretty good. I like it. Great place to start.
If you’ve ever read the blog, I obviously like Krauser, very much. He is a hero of mine (for game, not politics… but sometimes politics). His blog is great… I’ve learned so much from that source. His “Nitro” was his first product. Check that out. It’s lighter than his next book… Daygame Mastery. Mastery is very good, but more advanced. I read it, I own a hardback copy. I will read it again soon. He is very good. I think I have a lot to learn from that book.
Paul Janka did a piece called “how to get laid in NYC.” He has his own model. Paul is an excellent resource. He is very good looking, but we can still learn from him. He is more of a high volume guy, but you can see if you can pick anything up there. Let him supplement your education.
Back to Krauser… his Black Book, is a basic overview, I believe. Check it out. Video series. Then Overkill, is excellent. I’m a fan.
Then there are many good examples from the Daygame.com guys. More infield stuff. I like Jon Matrix Effortless, good infield with breakdowns, Tom is the “host.” Much better for pure daygame than his Stealth Seduction product. Yad did a product with Gambler as the host, also worth watching.
Howard, I think you mentioned Date Against the Machine, and that is a perfect example. I forgot that one.
For inspiration, read Tom’s “Daygame” and Krauser’s “Balls Deep.” Those books read more like novels, not “hot to,” but were significantly inspiring to me. Both those guys have follow-ups to those books that are also excellent. Get you fired up.
There is a lot more, but start there.
Okay… and then… you need to approach. Min 100 girls a month. 200 is better. That is a lot, I know. But this is much, much harder if you don’t take volume. Volume is everything. Embrace it. It will be fun. I promise.
Normal mission to start is:
— approach, compliment, leave.
Do that for the first 30 girls. Give the compliment, look cool if you can, and leave. Stay if you want, but that’s a great way to get going.
I am in Tokyo… I had a day recently where I got blown out maybe 19 times in a row… then took a number from the hottest girl I’ve ever approached. Took 4 more numbers after that. Dating some of those girls… I am dating every night this week in Tokyo… all daygame. I am 43, girls are 22-31. But I am doing a lot of volume. And it is very, very fun. And I am learning fast.
But notice how I had to get thru 19 blowouts before I stuck gold that day. And then… it was a very good day, and was a positive thing for me.
I promise you will have better days, better reactions, when you commit to 10+ girls per day you go out. I do 10-20 girls a day at home… and big days are almost always better. I’m doing 30+ in 2-3 hours here, because the talks are quicker… because of the language barrier… and there are so many girls on the street here. You will often need to warm up, each day. It’s normal. High volume.
>> Should I hire a coach? (From James)
Hmmm. I have hired two coaches in my life.
Dj Fuji, in 2014, I think. This was for nightgame. He is a “pickup 1.0” character, famous for his 2 foot mohawk (because he is short). I hired him for a one-night bootcamp. I didn’t like him (he is a dick), and I don’t think I learned much from him… but that’s not his fault. You can’t teach a guy game in a night. I had a good time, fooled around that night, took some numbers, and made out with a girl. He pushed me into sets I never would have opened. I got some reference experience I never would have had, because he would not let me leave a set unless I was told to leave, or brushed off twice. I felt a little validated that I did relatively well that night (there were like 10 community guys in the bar we were in, that bar sucked, and they all saw me making out, whatever). Meh.
And I hired Yad this past summer, because I just happen to see him on the street while I was out running game in my hometown. I hired him for one afternoon. I did learn somethings there, but I was much more experienced, and I could ask better questions, and he didn’t have to spend anytime on the basic stuff. I had the basics down (maybe 900 approaches at that point in my game), and he could give me more interesting feedback.
If you’re at a basic level, I think you can get started with the stuff I am referencing here. If you’re paying a guy to point out the most basic stuff and to make you talk to your first 50 girls, I think you’re wasting your money. Talk to 200 girls, and then think about it.
And if you do hire a coach… think about some kind of ongoing thing, if possible. I think seeing a coach every 2 weeks for 8 weeks would be much, much better than a weekend. You need time to digest and practice, then get corrected again.
If you have money to piss away and have access to a great coach, awesome, do it. But if not, you can find enough direction here, do some approaches, and then see how you feel. Approaching will teach you more than anything else.
Check out the ideas here, and try them in the field. Look at some videos of guys doing this. And then run volume. Volume is the best coach.
Down the road, you can find some excellent nuance from a coach or sharing with other smart guys. Yohami has been a gift to me. But I would never have been able to understand what he was saying if I didn’t have hundreds of hours of experience of my own.
>> 1. Daygame.com Conference? – Are you referring to “Daygame Blueprint With Andy Yosha and Yad”
Yeah. Pretty good program.
>> The length of interactions with women in Daygame seems long. I watched some other Daygame programs showing Jon, Tom and Yad with Date Against the Machine and Effortless. I noticed at times the conversation would lull or something was said the girl didn’t like and she said she had to go but they would pull the conversation back. Instead of keeping it short and light and leaving on a high note they were not afraid to go through the normal highs and lows of trying to have a conversation with a stranger in the middle of a busy street. My guess is that through “trial and error” this extra time in conversation is to “set the hook deeper”? So she gives you her number and also so she will actually meet you. Instead of an opener and then saying “nice to meet you, I have to get back, but I’d like to get your number and invite you out sometime”?
You’re on the right path with these questions, man.
Yeah, conversations aren’t always spicy. That’s normal. There are lulls. Part of being a cool guy is not panicking in a lull.
And there is no right answer to how long the initial approach should be.
Yes, I think a little more time makes the situation more solid. I don’t think you need 10 minutes, but if it’s fun (and very often it really is), why not? It can feel weird (to me) to ask for the number too quick… there is no context. As one of the Love System’s guys said in some product, “you haven’t demonstrated enough value to ask for that kind of compliance yet.” I bet that is true some of the time (depending on how cool you can be in two minutes).
You do run a risk of “burning out” the initial magic, or creating friction by keeping her from wherever she was going. We know some girls will insta-date (I’ve done four on this trip to Japan, maybe 4 of 6 times I’ve asked), but not all girls have all day to chat. It takes calibration to know when that is smart option. Most girls, you will let them go, and let them go relatively quickly.
If you read my post about the Velvet Mouth mom… I had maybe two minutes with her, maybe less, took her number, she really liked me (still does), and sex on the second date. So… short interaction, led to sex. I’ve seen long, deep, involved interaction’s go nowhere. Big range in results, much of which is unpredictable. Don’t overthink it. Just get back to approaching.
>> leaving on a high note
This is always a great idea. Short or long conversation, it’s a good idea to CLOSE HER on a high note. In fact, I had a little breakthrough on this here on my trip to Japan. Check out the post on “how to escalate.” Great comments from Yohami and Tyler from RSD that explain why a high note is so powerful. It is more nuanced and powerful than I could understand earlier on my path.
>> I’ve heard in daygame many numbers never turn into dates. Is this true?
Ha. Yes… many, many numbers do not turn into dates. Most. Like 70-90%. This is true of every kind of approach, especially if you’re doing real volume and not cherry picking dates here and there. If you’re good and attractive, girls will have fun in that moment, but that doesn’t mean they want to fuck you… at least not after they’ve had a chance to think about it. That is normal and healthy on the girls’ part.
I will rant for a second and say I’ve never liked the word “flake” for numbers that go nowhere. To me “flake” means someone backing out of a commitment of some kind. A girl giving you her contact details is in no way any kind of commitment. I don’t use the word flake, unless she backs out of date she has explicitly agreed to. A girl is not flaking if you had mediocre game, or took a number from a weak set and she never returns your messages. She has broken no commitment. It’s possible our game was weak, and that doesn’t make her a flake… but many of us use the term flake like that.
I will tell you I get 0-5 numbers when I talk to 10-18 girls. That is my “normal.” And you’ll notice there is a big range there.
Some weeks I will do two days of 12 girls per day, get zero numbers. Those weeks can suck, some times. Or they might be fun, but I’m not getting dates, makeouts or sex from a week like that. I also haven’t had a week like that in a long time. Maybe October? Or September? But I had plenty last summer.
Of those approaches, let’s say I get three leads, not that unusual that none will date me. Maybe two respond, one chats for bit and then disappears when I ask for the date. This is all normal (at least for where I am in game). Other times… three of three will date me within five days of when I took the number. Also normal.
Big range in results. Expect that.
I like to say this is like poker… some of this is skill, some is the cards you are dealt. Work your program and you’ll win over time. But sometimes to get shitty cards. Other times… all aces. Big range. But experience will help you manage the cards you do get. That’s where you need to focus.
>> an opener and then saying “nice to meet you, I have to get back, but I’d like to get your number and invite you out sometime”?
If you want short approaches, I’d reference “How to get laid in NYC.” Janka. I love him, great mind in street seduction. And he likes very short initial pickups, two minutes. He is also very smart and good looking. And… he is in NYC, with incredible amount of girls. So he runs a more high volume, low-depth game (initially). He’s worth studying. Very smart guy. His good looks aren’t that much of his game, IMAO. He is a genius in terms of game… he has several products out and some talks at conferences. All are good.
>> how simple these guys are. People like Mystery and Style were so complicated. Watching Effortless you see a lot of it is about just getting started and then having good Social IQ.
Agreed. Krauser is more complicated, but I also think he is more real. He is extremely smart. I’m a huge fan. I think he is harder to learn from, but has much more to teach. My opinion.
>> I think it’s 33% a strong open, 33% keeping the conversation going, 33% a strong but simple close or insta-date.
You’re on the right path, man.
I would give you a different angle… but I’m not saying what you said is wrong.
I think VERY HIGH VOLUME is the base of all this. Be original, be real, be vulnerable as you approach… but run high volume. That will give you opportunity to find girls that are warm to you (“yes girls”), and will give you a lot of experience. Experience is where the real power comes from. You can only get experience from volume.
I wrote a post about social calibration, building off of something Krauser was talking about. Maybe give that a read.
In the end… it’s about you as a man. Your life, but also your experience (with yourself and with women). That is actually what makes a stop happen or not. It’s the quality of the man, of course. You will develop yourself overtime.
As to that last part, both Riv and I spend a lot of time talking about how we are always gaming ourselves. That is very smart way to think about it. Instead of getting the girl to fuck you, how do you know you are fuckable?? And then get out there and show that fuckablity off? This is not about the girls. They are a side effect of being a better man.
Good points to ponder.
>> I like the idea of a simple compliment. That has always been my sticking point is not knowing how to get it started and comfortable doing it. So many times I see a girl and not know what to say.
See that Tom Torero link I posted above… very good for this.
The other thing I would say is that the best approaches are when you actually feel something for the girl.
I call this the difference between being into her with your “eyes or your head” vs “your heart and your cock.” The latter is more real… and you’ll have more to say. I think that is important.
I’m convinced many guys are hitting on a girl because they “think” she is hot, not because they have any real, personal, raw hunger for a given girl. Like they are going after what society thinks is hot, and then have nothing to say as that maybe isn’t really what turns them on. It’s no wonder they can’t find anything to say. Krauser talks about the DNA tug. I think he is saying something similar there.
I have opened girls “mechanically,” before. Because I was trying to hit some kind of personal quota for the day (and having a quota has merit, in many ways), or because I thought she was hot, but couldn’t find a “story” to open her about (Krauser helped me get the “story” concept… See his Mastery, and I think there is material on that in Black Book and Overkill).
I have had some of those “empty” approaches work, but usually they are flat. When they work, it’s because I opened her, and then something authentic happened. She lit up, and then I suddenly felt something real or personal for her. And I worked with that.
This is how I see it… I’m sure other guys have a different way to think about it.
I would really encourage you to focus on girls that really draw you in, where the story, or even a comment, just comes to you. Those are my favorite approaches.
Root (a young guy I have been doing a little light coaching with in Tokyo) did this very naturally on the street last week. He saw some girl and I asked him what story came to mind, and he said “sassy” very quickly. That was perfect. Then you run over and say, “I know this is a bit unusual, but I saw you walk by and you had this great sassy flare to you, I wanted to say hi.” The realness of it, the immediacy helps it work. It’s not a line. It’s the truth. And she can feel it.
RSD Julian talks about the importance of being real. As often as you can… aim for that. Scripts are hollow.
I feel like the footage I’ve seen from Krauser is very personal. I like that about him. I want my approaches to be personal. I say the same things to girls over and over too. But the examples from Krauser in Overkill… I have learned a lot from that guy. He’s solid.
This is Krauser style, its real, its deeper… one way to think about it.
>> You also mentioned you date every night. I’m in the process of building my business to travel and do this more. I want to get good at this so I can daygame when I travel but also for 1 or 2 dates a week in the meantime. I don’t have time to juggle anymore for now.
I only **sometimes** date every night (now, last Fall, a couple of other times in my life)… ongoing, I think that’s too much, out of balance. We’re not fulltime like the pro’s are, and we oughtn’t expect our lives to look like theirs.
I’m in a period of heavy investment and learning right now. My pace here in Tokyo is not sustainable. I am loving it, but I don’t pretend I can (or want) to be at this pace forever (even though at this moment I wish I was completely full time with this, I have for months, and I’ve been close to fulltime in terms of hours of approaching/texting/dating). I’m having a good time. I won’t do this pace for ever. I know that.
Dating one to two times per week is amazing. 2 dates a week based on offering a woman your masculine realness via cold-approach, via direct approach, via daygame… that’s fucking awesome. That puts you in a rare category of men.
If you want to binge on experience like I am doing now, do it. It will really help you learn more, and much faster (and many lessons are only available to you when you have abundance, I am creating abundance by doing a lot of game in concentrated periods, creating what I call Girl Tornadoes). Do that a bit, if you can.
As for travel… travel is grossly overrated. For me, it’s like showing off. Gaming in your city is the real bread/butter. Do that. If your city sucks, move. Seriously.
There is nothing wrong with hitting on girls on the street when you travel, but it is NOT the way to learn. I don’t recommend it for beginners at all. Travelling is harder. I am doing this to test myself, not because this is the goal.
I also have a big hard on for Japanese girls. So this is indulgent. I live in CA, and have plenty of hot Asian girls in my city. That’s where I should get good.
And the only reason I am good here, is because I put in all those hours at home. This is an important point.
The London guys travel because London girls are kind of gross (I hear), they want FSU girls, for their femininity, and sheer genetic gifts. Many pickup guys are also making money via remote work and passive income of some kind, and can have a lower cost of living by going outside of major Western cities. Hotter girls, lower cost of living, not a bad deal.
But if you have ties to some city, and can handle the cost of living, do that. Don’t worry about travel. Travelling is “razzle dazzle.” Don’t get distracted.
>> What would you recommend to a dude your age with 0 experience do to just get started in Tokyo? (From James)
I wouldn’t recommend you try to learn in a foreign place. I did 500 approaches at home before my first trip to Tokyo. No way I could have started in Tokyo… not me, anyway. Tokyo would have made the whole thing harder, and harder to “troubleshoot,” as I would have introduced some many extra variables based on location, language, culture, and my nerves at being in a strange place.
With that said, for my trip in 2015… I did a lot of approaching, over a short period of time, and that greatly improved my game back home. 500 before I went on that trip. 80 in Tokyo, in 3 weeks, which was a lot for me then. And I did another 400+ approaches once I got home before I even got laid from a daygame approach (I was getting laid elsewhere, but not like I am now).
I was a hard case. I don’t think everyone needs 1000 approaches. But Krauser did (I believe he says so in Balls Deep, which is a fun read).
Without doing the 1000 approaches I did mostly at home, I would be nothing here.
Hunting on your own territory is where it’s at. That’s where you are a master. You should shine on your home turf, or it is unlikely you will shine elsewhere. When you’re very good, test yourself on a holiday, but that is not the way to find the best ROI from this work.
I put some comments on Roy Walker’s blog about how he should do one-month minimum stays per country. I say that, as longer stays get you closer to the mastery you should have in your city. When we offer women mastery, we are more attractive… hard to do that when you don’t know where the fuck you are.
I am doing well in Japan, but I spent a lot of time working out my logistics here. Places to eat, drink, bounce to, etc. I have real social proof everywhere I go here, many friends in terms of bars/restaurants/cafes, etc. Again, so I am as slick, organized, and well connected as I am at home. All of this takes time.
If you don’t plan to date at all, just pull home… I guess logistics are less important. But most guys can’t “only” pull off the street. Stealth might be an exception, and I’m sure there are more. I know a guy in my town that pulls off the street straight back to his house, but I think that’s low yield game and would be a very tough way to learn. Tom Torero and Krauser both talk about how 3-date sex is pretty normal. A lot of lays go down like that, and you need logistics if you’re going to look cool dating.
I think it is true… but I have never taken a girl off the sidewalk straight to my house. I have had SDLs, but never “bounce, bounce, sex.” I will do this eventually, but I have not yet.
>> I’m thinking now to keep learning about approaching, and my goal for Feb is to do 100 compliments and see where they go. I’ll mark them down in a notebook. If I can just get over this approach anxiety by complimenting 1200 women in a year that would be amazing for me alone.
This is a fantastic plan.
I have been in game for YEARS… and daygame did more for me than anything else.
For instance, I had literally thousands of approaches in bars/clubs/cafes, and still had some real AA. It took me about 200 daygame approaches, and I lost my AA. They were all direct. I don’t fuck around with indirect. But after 200 approaches OVER A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, something in me changed. I had some good experiences in those first 200, but many were “pure heart attack.” Tons of blowouts. That’s normal. But then… I started to get it. It became fun. It became about giving those girls a good experience.
I still get blown out a lot, but I don’t have AA. That is an amazing thing to say. I have always been reasonably social, but I had AA just like everyone else. It’s gone. Part of it was cleaning myself up as a man, knowing this was about being who I wanted to be, and that I was here to give these girls good experiences… not take from them. And part was just working thru my beginner’s nerves.
You won’t need 1200 approaches to get over AA. Some AA is always there (very little for me now though, I must say, and I am not special). You should be getting laid by 1200 girls, for sure. It took me 1000, but I think I was a hard case. My next lay was within, 200. Then two more lays in the next 200. In Tokyo, I think I am on pace to close two to five girls in my 200 approaches here (don’t know if I’ll have time to work them all through the model).
And compliments are a great place to start. I bet, in your first 20 compliments, you’ll have a couple of good conversations, where the girl loves the approach (if not you). That will give you the positive feedback you need to keep going. I have been thanked hundreds of times. I’ve also been hugged, kissed, etc. Not all of them, but many, love it.
Do high volume days, especially when you’re in a good mood. Don’t cherry pick a girl here/there, I don’t think you’ll get the positive reference experience you need from that kind of game. Big days warm you up and “magic” starts to happen.
You will need positive feedback and if you’re at all normal, you’ll get it. But you are more likely to get it after you’ve warmed up. Again, volume. High-volume within a given day, and also within a given month. I think two to three days a week is what you want to get this in your blood.
>> I like how you mentioned it is fun. I can see this.
It really is. Not every approach. Some approaches, the rejection is so cold, it hurts. Welcome to being a man. Even here in Tokyo, I feel so solid, but I get blown out a LOT, and some are quite harsh. Who cares. Those are not the girls that matter.
Be nice. Girls are totally allowed to reject us at any stage of the seduction. Good for them. But live big, man. You will get more out of life, and so will the girls you lead on these romantic adventures. This is good stuff. Beautiful, and life changing.
>> I just have to get over the hump of starting. I feel I have the rest.
I’ll end with this… you will be surprised just how little you know. Get ready for that.
This rabbit hole of girls and game is so fucking deep. I think I am barely scratching the surface. I am at 1400 approaches and had many “first” in the last two weeks. The learning curve is long.
Look at the comments on this blog from Yohami, and more recently by Stealth… we have no idea what those guys know. Krauser and Janka. We have no idea the level/depth of experience those guys have. RSD Tyler… we’ll never know what he knows.
My Tokyo trip has been ridiculously rich, so many approaches (200 in a month?), so many leads (30+?… I’ll total them all up later), hundreds of text messages, so many dates… it’s doing this over years that begins to open your eyes. Most of us have a lot of baggage to unpack before we can even start to really see until we’ve done a lot of work. It takes a long time to settle down. Keep an open mind, you’ll be surprised.
This is long, but worthy journey. Make yourself a better man. Do this for you. Give these girls good experiences (that is much more than just being “nice,” nice is not what I’m saying at all).
All of this is for you. As you invest in yourself, the girls will come thru as well. This is not about the girls. It’s about being who we want to be as men. It is about living big and taking girls with us. If we are not on that path, we have nothing to offer these women.
Good on you for getting after this. Have fun.
the “animal training” system i came up with in order to do 1,000 approaches in one year:
saturday: 5 approaches, then i reward myself with lunch. 5 more approaches, and i reward myself with dinner.
sunday: same thing.
that’s 20 approaches per week. do that x52 weeks and there you go.
i used hunger to help overcome my fear.
Great addition, Riv.
I used to make myself do 5 approaches before I could have tea and a cookie. : ] We are simple animals. On the street and in the sack.
This is a great post. Absolute gold. This should be the go-to reference for someone who wants to get started with Daygame.
On coaching, I would say the best coach is a wing that has a very different approach than you, but is successful in his own way. Plus, it’s free, because you’re both getting something out of it. I’ve learned from you, Nash, as you’ve learned from me.
And I didn’t mention wings… I might add a section on wings. I don’t **need** one… but my vibe is almost always higher with one.
Root has been very cool to run with. I like winging Rauker, as well.
The first time you and I hit the streets I was instantly inspired… in part, as you approached that girl with the Olympic Ass as your first move of the day, and it took you about 1 minute to do it. I have learned from you.
Good to hear from you today, man. Cheers!
Or, you could be banging hotties in a couple weeks, and learning game by being in girl tornado since the start.
Yohami, this is for beginners. Your Zen stuff is hard to get, and I don’t think beginners are ready for it. I am slowly getting it. David D’Angelo used to call all this “the illusive obvious.”
BTW, I am doing a thorough review of RSD Tylers new Hotseat program. And I think you would like it. Some powerful stuff there.
I will do a big post about it in the next week or two. But the whole program is about how to explain what in many ways you are always suggesting. Tyler breaks it down into skills and midsets, then does exercises to help make those concepts real.
It is actually very hard to explain. It is nuanced stuff. But I have taken a lot of notes, and will do my best when I post about it. I also think most players won’t be ready for what TD is saying until they have a lot experience. And even then, they’ll have to listen, get some more experience, and THEN they’ll get it. I don’t think I get 1/2 of it.
So… we send young daygamers out, and have them start getting some experience. You’ve always said “at least you’re out talking to girls.” And then those guys get a taste of real life interactions, and THEN they can begin to understand what you and TD are saying.
You are right man, but the notes here are not a bad place for a guy to get his teeth wet, and before he has enough experience to hear what you’re trying to tell him.
The notes are not bad, don’t take this as a criticism – this is rant.
If you’re serious about becoming the kind of man that gets laid, become that man in every way possible. You want the insights to come naturally to you, change your life so being that man is the natural thing.
Follow Luke’s method and join a VIP lil group where all the hot girls want to join in and that gets you laid immediately even if you don’t have game.
Or travel to a place where you have upper value.
Or what I advocate – get a job or a hobby or anything we’re you’re the social alpha (teacher, bouncer, guide, actor, performer, boss, manager)
Anything really – where you’re the one who starts with the social upperhand, and then learn game from there, so all the insights come naturally to you, instead of doing an uphill battle and fighting for crumbs.
I didn’t even do any of that, but I did do stop all the chasing, cold. So I only did stuff that would give me power. So when I’d interact with girls any time of day I’d do so from an upperhand position or I wouldnt interact at all. I changed my wardrobe, started to go out a lot, engaged in many social groups etc. Then started joining the dots. I didnt even know what I was doing (all the pua systems were not as good as they are now). But it sure didn’t take ‘1000 rejections’. 1000 rejections is what I got before Game.
If you’re serious about becoming the kind of man that gets laid, become that man in every way possible.
I get that there may be some idealization of the grind. Gruesome work has an appeal.
Still the stuff that I’ve been preaching here, and what RSD is focusing on lately is impossible to see unless you have social upperhand. Gruesome work and social upperhand are opposites.
>> The notes are not bad, don’t take this as a criticism – this is rant.
I love your rants. Thanks for being here, man.
>> that gets you laid immediately even if you don’t have game.
There is not such thing, man. And you know it. Men, without game, get laid when they pay for it, are providers (same thing as paying for it), or when women decide they want sex and he is the guy they’re fucking that night.
You would say the alpha gets laid, the guy at the top of the ladder, and that guy is at the top of the ladder, because he has “game.” Not exclusively pickup skills, but certain “game.”
>> join a VIP lil group where all the hot girls want to join
>> Or travel to a place where you have upper value.
>> Or what I advocate – get a job or a hobby or anything we’re you’re the social alpha (teacher, bouncer, guide, actor, performer, boss, manager)
>> Anything really
These are all “delivery mechanisms” for the game you have. If you have no game, you will be the guy in the VIP group that doesn’t get laid. When Neil Strauss wrote “The Game,” he was reporter at the coolest music events ever, he had backstage access, he had famous friends… but he did not have game and he did not get laid.
It takes both. Skill, and a showcase for your skill. Value, and a showcase for your value.
>> stop all the chasing, cold
You are right about the **dynamic** of chasing. I am still trying to figure this out. But daygame does not have to be about the dynamic of chasing.
>> But it sure didn’t take ‘1000 rejections’. 1000 rejections is what I got before Game.
Ha, I didn’t get a 1000 rejections before I got laid. I did 1000 approaches, but only some were rejections (okay, most). Many were explicit approval from those girls. And I would have had much more approval, if my game was better. And I would have gotten laid much, much faster, if I knew what I know now, and could do something with that approval. I still miss so much.
And, as you and I agree, if my **swagger** was there… but I couldn’t understand swagger until my game was better.
>> If you’re serious about becoming the kind of man that gets laid, become that man in every way possible.
Yes, yes, 1000 times yes. Being a better man is not about cold approach. But cold approach is also not a barrier to being a better, more desirable man.
>> I get that there may be some idealization of the grind. Gruesome work has an appeal.
Fuck the grind. I am not advocating the grind. But as you do have some grind… you will learn some things, and THAT will help you get where you want to go.
Ok, important stuff:
“[getting laid without game] There is not such thing… [delivery mechanisms]”
1) Women come to this world to breed with the winner man, the man that is above their own status. The difference in status is, as far as I know, the only sexual trigger in a woman other than their own fetishes (nitpicking preferences like liking a skin tone, beard, specific grooming, etc, like men who like feet). The status difference is called ‘hypergamy’. All the things we talk about in Game are ways to either convey higher value to trigger hypergamy, or trigger hypergamy directly, or try to bypass it.
2) Men come to this world to breed with as many women as they can, after having competed with each other and settled on ranks, winners and losers. The winners get all the girls attention, the losers get none. Game, at is core, is the study of the winners behaviors so the losers know what to emulate to get pass themselves as one of the winners.
3) Seducing a woman is the art to make her see you as the best available man. Emphasis in ‘best’ and ‘available’. Again, her mission is to breed with the man above her. Seducing her is facilitating HER agenda, giving her something she WANTS, and is available, NOW, to her, like a hot sale. At the same time, like in sales, when something is “too good to be true” it creates resistance, example if Im offered a ferrari for a hundred bucks I’ll feel there must be something wrong with it, and if someone is chasing me around wanting to sell me a car, even if its a car I’d been looking for, the chase will raise red flags. The expectance is that things that are within my reach ‘just happen’, I buy milk and cheese and stuff from the store with no friction or resistance, it’s all seamless and coherent. Having a ferrari, even if I’d like one, is not ‘real’, so for me to get into one the specific scenario must happen, example, I can be invited for an afternoon ride, and I’ll take it. And I still wont take the volskwagen that wants me to pay the full price and get in a committed ownership relationship. So to make this more clear: A person can interact with higher value if it’s short and a peak and has no strings attached, because a person cannot incorporate higher value into their lives unless something special breaks that reality, AND a person will reject lower value assets coming with strings. For women, the alphas are the ferraris and very few of them can buy one or see themselves owning one, but ALL of them will take a ride if offered such, because that’s their mission. And Betas are lower volkswagens trying to get into their garage, and they spend unordinary amounts of time ranking these lower cars and switching them in place trying to determine which one they should stick to based on a never ending list of nitpicking – that they drop as soon as they see a ferrari, no questions asked.
3) Getting laid without game. There are a LOT of famous and rich people who get laid and don’t have game. This actor deFranco has anti game. The benji brothers from the Good Charlotte have beta game. A lot of artists are omega and have omega game, a mix of suicidal tendencies and self destruction. They still get laid like rockstars. Because it’s not about game – it’s about being higher status. But then this, and all I wrote here was to get into this point:
4) We are biological creatures and we respond predictably to general situations. Barring personal traumas and deviations, having approval, for example, makes your self esteem grow. Having sex makes your mood improve. Having abundance makes you care less about things and relaxes you. Being in a position of authority makes you dominant. Being sucessful makes you cocky. Etc. The point being:
If you are put in the social life of an alpha and get the kind of stimuli an alpha gets, then you naturally start developing the sort of attitudes, mindframes, beliefs, etc.
This is x10 true when you’re in company of other alphas, so you have a reference framework, or rules of the game, to follow. Like in point 2, men’s mission is to get lad by competing, and competition has rules. We all copy the rules from the winners, so we can satisfy our own mission. Being in company of winners gives you the rules you need to win like they do. Game is just another thing where we’re all looking for a winner to emulate so we can breed. The fact that we’re focusing on breeding directly is because the rest of the rules we followed to get here didnt work, so we’re trying to figure out the core issues, so we can go back to life and keep winning.
So. When I say “become a social alpha”, “get in a VIP social group”, ‘change your life’ Im not speaking as a replacement of game, but as a facilitator situation for game. It’s not “don’t do game, get status”, but “you must learn game, so get status”
The reason why guys spend years and years into game and see poor results is because they ignored the basics, aka, what women want, and what men want as well, and instead of climbing the ladder to become the ferraris, they try to improve the selling skills needed to push a volkswagen.
Becoming the ferrari is easier than selling a volkswagen. It’s less work. If you know what you’re doing, it’s quite fast too.
Abundance is the entry point, not the end point. The ‘hot girl’ mindset is the actual first step of the journey. Welcome aboard!
“But daygame does not have to be about the dynamic of chasing.”
Yes. But if you have a chaser (beta) and put her in a situation where he has to run after women and stopping them to try to get something from them, how do you teach THAT guy not to chase?
This is why the whole PUA / Game community finds the ‘paradoxes’.
“Ha, I didn’t get a 1000 rejections before I got laid.”
That comment isnt about you specifically, but about being proud of the number of approaches PUAs do, some counting into the thousands and thousands to get laid one or twice.
“And I would have gotten laid much, much faster, if I knew what I know now”
THIS. It could even be so much faster man. If you knew more. For example if you had been hanging with Stealth since the beginning.
“I couldn’t understand swagger until my game was better.”
“But cold approach is also not a barrier to being a better, more desirable man.”
It’s not a barrier but the mindset is. The reason WHY guys have to do cold approach is that women are not chasing them. So the cold approach is NECESSARY. That tension right there will kill all the things that need to be there to turn the interactions into getting laid.
The place you’re arriving into, the ‘hot girl frame’ is where you have to be. To get there you need abundance. Means you have to not care. How do you teach the guy making a list of his approaches not to care? ‘paradox’
“Fuck the grind.”
Amen. There are things where grinding increases your value, and yes to that area.
>> At the same time, like in sales, when something is “too good to be true” it creates resistance
Yohami… this is exactly what I needed to hear right now. I haven’t even posted where I am at, but this is exactly what I needed to hear right now.
The last week has mostly been a week of amazing “selling,” fucking hardcore selling, but only “close calls” in terms of actual sales. I’ve been selling too hard. In part, as I have been out of time, and that has me extra “horny” to close these deals.
>> feel there must be something wrong with it, and if someone is chasing me around wanting to sell me a car, even if its a car I’d been looking for, the chase will raise red flags.
I think I have been doing this to girls all week.
I will write about this elsewhere, but I have been thinking about what I have learned, what I will take away from this trip…
— I am delivering the highest value I have ever offered, but I am still chasing
— My attraction and “solidness” as a man are at alltime highs… but I am overselling the deal
I chased in the early part of this trip, to make sure I had some results. And I got some. I chased at the end of this trip as I was running out of time… so I got a lot of hot starts, and cold endings.
Really helpful comment, Yohami.
This is not about this trip. This is about my ongoing education. Hmmm.
Good lessons. Thank you.
The higher the value the less you have to sell it, the lower the value the more you have to sell it. The more you sell it the lower the value, the less you sell it the higher the value. Less is literally more.
Check that Twitter feed chat I sent you over email – I barely talked to these girls and they were DTF. Both sending nude pics to the guy now and wanting to meet. Zero chase.
I agree with what you say about status. Status trumps everything. Money, looks, etc. Yet some of us are not status-seekers. And some of us don’t want to fuck within our social circle.
I have no intention of chasing status or having sex with anyone I know, or who knows my friends. Never have, never will.
So strangers is what I settle on. There’s something beautiful about having sex with a complete stranger.
If that gets me less lays, so be it.
You sound solid here, Pancake. I like it. Good for you.
>> There’s something beautiful about having sex with a complete stranger.
I am just beginning to figure this out, but I agree. Perhaps not always, but much of the time.
>> I have no intention of chasing status or having sex with anyone I know, or who knows my friends. Never have, never will.
And the pool of girls that are neither in your domain of mastery or in your social circle is bigger than either of those opportunities. It is one of the things I love about cold approach… much more opportunity there, even as the conversation rate is lower.
And then there is the fact that cold approach is portable. As I was able do to in DC and again in Tokyo… I can make this happen anywhere. Sometimes, getting results very quickly. Your status and social circle are usually pinned to a given location.
The portable nature of cold approach and the big pool of opportunity makes it “anti-fragile” and flexible. I love it.
“Status trumps everything.”
Actually Game trumps status. Check the video with Tyler stealing the hottie from the status guy.
“Yet some of us are not status-seekers”
This doesn’t make any sense.
“And some of us don’t want to fuck within our social circle.”
Even less sense.
“So strangers is what I settle on.”
Sex with strangers is the best. Most of my lays were girls I knew for less than two hours.
I don’t want to keep repeating myself so here’s a succinct version.
Check the picture of the two guys I posted below, the one at the top and the one at the bottom.
– Sex will be offered to the guy at the top, by girls who know them, and by strangers. The guy at the bottom will have to chase skirt and retort and suffer and endure.
– The guy at the top can ‘be himself’ to get laid. The guy at the bottom has to change, or to fake, to get laid. For what the guy at the top comes natural, the guy at the bottom can never figure out. They live in different realities.
– If you’re seducing a girl, known or stranger, you have to make her perceive as the top guy, the best top guy she can have right now. If you’re an actual ‘guy at the top’ this doesn’t mean anything, it’s just saying ‘hello’. If you’re a ‘bottom guy’ then you’re presented with a succession of tests and puzzles and riddles and always close to showing your hand – you’re a bottom guy trying to get laid – and getting rejected.
– If after knowing that you still want to be a bottom guy, more power to you. All Im doing is showing you what is.
Nash – as for portability.
I can go out any day of the week, any time of the day, anywhere, and get laid. I enter new social circles, stay for 20 min, and I am the guy all the girls are trying to get. I enter a new circle and say a few things and everyone is laughing and trying to get my approval. I spent about a year in 2012 without going out or having sex, then one day I felt I was ready for the madness again, I went out, got laid, went out again, got laid, every day, got laid. Two months later an harem of 10 girls. All strangers – than then I made the mistake of incorporating into a social circle and created drama -. I went with my wife and kids to a train station minding my own business. When I bother to look around – all the girls are looking at me with these eyes and wanting me to approach them. I am good(ish) looking but Im not dicaprio. What is going on is girls can read my body language, how I talk, walk, the volume, the facial expressions etc, and they know what I think of myself: Im the fucking boss. I took over the twitter account of a guy wanting some help and got two girls to want to have sex with him in less than 20 lines. Portability: there’s nothing more portable than being.
When I advocate for going for positions of status – that’s me trying to figure out how to take a normal guy and put him in the right path by doing the things that matter in a way that doesn’t take the 2-4 years that it took me, but a couple months if so. Because this is many things but it isnt rocket science.
What is missing from all the models is that the girls already want something. Everyone is obsessed tuning a model and a system and a series of steps – when in reality is just about giving girls what they want. And they all want the same. The top guy. There’s no way around it, and there shouldnt be.
Whatever is blocking guys into embracing their “higher status self” is the same thing keeping pussy away.
>> I took over the twitter account of a guy wanting some help and got two girls to want to have sex with him in less than 20 lines. Portability: there’s nothing more portable than being.
^ This sounds so cool. Great experiment. I know that you sent me more info on this and I am very interested.
I just got back home, and need to finish some things up (about to post another lay report), but I am very much looking fwd to diving into that. Thanks for sharing.
Welcome back man. I sent you and Riv a pdf with the twitter chat about a week ago, let me know if you got it
“lay report” yeah!
>> I can go out any day of the week, any time of the day, anywhere, and get laid.
I know it. I get it.
For most people, they are recommending “environmental” game — which is not portable. That is not exactly what you’re saying.
You have recommended getting a good “environment,” but I know that’s not exactly what you mean.
>> Sex will be offered to the guy at the top, by girls who know them, and by strangers.
I get your point about “put yourself at the top of the ladder,” as a shortcut… but I think we both agree that if you want to be good, you have to be the man that women want… and there aren’t really any shortcuts for that.
We you say you can get laid any time you want, it’s because “you are the man at the top,” even outside your best environments. I get it. I can’t replicated it, but I’m on the path.
>> I spent about a year in 2012 without going out or having sex, then one day I felt I was ready for the madness again, I went out, got laid, went out again, got laid, every day, got laid. Two months later an harem of 10 girls. All strangers
>> then one day I felt I was ready for the madness again
I think you mean “ready for the madness to end.” You have told me, “stop the madness” many times. : ]
Even if that is what you mean, this the part that is hard to understand. How do we just “stop” the madness? I am beginning to get it, as I am learning a lot.
I told a friend at dinner last night that “I feel like I am beginning to be able to read the instruction manual.” It’s not like guys can’t tell you what to do, but when you’re new, you just understand them.
First you start. Then you slow learn to read the manual. Then you get those deeper lessons. Then you apply them. Then… you’re really fucking good.
I still don’t “fully get” what you try to teach me, but I am learning, and with each step, more and more of what you say is understandable to me. I can see more and more of the chessboard.
This trip especially… I learned a TON. Big volume of approaches, messaging and dates. A few new lays. Tons of fresh experience. And I feel like I can understand the “instruction manual” much better now.
Now that I can read the manual, I can take in more of what I need to do. Then I go practice that, and I spiral up. Which gives me new lessons and experience.
I’m getting there.
“You have recommended getting a good “environment””
Yeah, there are good and bad environments to learn.
“you have to be the man that women want… and there aren’t really any shortcuts for that”
Well, the shortcut is attempting that directly, as opposed to taking a long round trying to avoid it, thinking you can cheat your way into the rewards without paying the price.
“but I’m on the path.”
Yup, I can tell.
>> then one day I felt I was ready for the madness again
“I think you mean “ready for the madness to end.””
Banging many girls, going out every day, texting, fucking, managing, dating and having a harem and the girl tornado is madness, too. I stopped for about a year then I felt ready to do a round of that kind of madness again. That second time was easier and I learn most of what Im sharing here now. My first round was more pua / technique / method based, the second round was all insight and improvisation, on steroids.
“How do we just “stop” the madness?”
That specific madness.
You stop it by not being a bottom guy who daydreams he can get the results from the top by doing some ‘trick’, and start being a top guy who takes things he wants and does what comes natural to him.
The road of the bottom guy trying to win by doing a trick is an endless distraction that leads nowhere, while the road for the top guy doing what comes natural is fast, hard and rich.
“First you start. Then you slow learn to read the manual. Then you get those deeper lessons. Then you apply them. Then… you’re really fucking good.”
Great post and I agree it is a good summary of where to start.
You didn’t leave anything out.
Regarding the time issue. In Date Against the Machine and Matrix Infield you see that unlike some of the previous PUAs there is not a lot of trickery going on. Just basic alpha behavior and controlling the conversation.
There is one where Jon is talking to a French girl before an Instadate. She goes off on a tangent about wanting to find movies to rent to learn English. She meant well but it was a dead end and he was able to bring it back by changing the topic to her jewelry. I see this as basic social intelligence that is also learned with time.
At times too the conversation seems to falter and even these “pros” seem to be at a loss for words and the girls says, “Well, OK, I have to go.” And the guy stops her and brings it back around. I notice this several times.
This happened in Date Against the Machine when Yad was talking with the actress. She told him she had to leave it seemed at least three times. It seems he kept taking the conversation longer until she really had to go and then got the phone number.
I would be thinking to bring it around and then say that I have to go and get the number. I didn’t notice that. Instead they seemed to be pushing the conversation longer and longer until the woman really had to go. Maybe it was because they are being filmed or maybe it is to set a deeper connection or to try and have an instadate. Or as many numbers don’t turn into dates that more time was better for the connection.
>> You didn’t leave anything out.
I am sure I left a ton out, but thank you.
>> And the guy stops her and brings it back around.
>> he kept taking the conversation longer until she really had to go
The point is not to see how long you can make the interaction. Shortish, can be fine. I think best case, if you can really hook her fast, take the number, and end the interaction yourself, that is maybe “best.”
I think the way to approach this is:
— Would it help the connection between she/I if I extended this conversation??
If the answer is no, don’t do it. If the answer is yes, go for it.
I had an interaction the other day where she didn’t fully stop, slipped around me, and then I told her to stop. That’s helped us connect. And then she took the compliment, laughed a bit, and started to go, but I kept the conversation going. That helped us. She tried to go once more, and I asked her if she was from the neighborhood we were in… and at that point, she finally hooked. I texted her 3 times before she responded, but tonight she is answering questions and talking about a date.
I wasn’t going for “distance,” I was going for real connection. And I saw her “hook” hard at the end of that set, that’s why I bothered to text her 3 times.
Beneath all this, the girl has to “throw you off” (or most guys off) or she’ll be “pregnant” her whole life. So while you are trying to get in, she mostly has to keep guys out. This is normal and healthy for girls. Too many offers, not enough “womb.” Girls are sane and rationale in these moments.
So if you plow a bit, to get past her automatic defenses, and you give her real value, I think you’re being a cool guy, doing what you are supposed to do, to show her you are well beyond average. But if she is not into you, if it’s actual rejection, not just auto-defense, and you plow, you are being uncalibrated, and taking value from her. And that is not cool. Don’t be that guy. That guy gives all of us a bad name (and I have have been that guy sometimes, but don’t aim for it).
It takes some time to know the difference, but that I how I feel about it. I want to get past her pre-programmed “no,” but only when she is a maybe. If she is an actual “no,” I want to get out of her way… I’m just being a uncalibrated tool by staying at that point, and being a tool is not my goal.
We want to give girls good experiences. That is my goal. And to have wet pussy up to my ears.
Nash, you put things together really well, great post!
I’ve never taken a bootcamp, but as far as I know, only 20% who take bootcamps end up continuing or ever becoming close to good. Most of the important lessons like you said comes from field.
I was however very lucky to have two excellent rolemodels when I started game – that’s the other thing, to accelerate your pace of growth, you need to spend time with gamers who are much better than you. I started getting tons of SNL’s when I started hanging out with guys who were getting lots of SNL’s.
>> you need to spend time with gamers who are much better than you
This is so true.
At one big stage of improvement for me, I was out with my wing Hurricane, and this guy EMC. All night game.
Hurricane was often alcohol-fueled, but he had a real dedication and was trying to get better. He started to take off… couldn’t walk across the bar without making out with some girl. When he plowed, I didn’t learn much. But he had his own “girl tornado” vibe going, I learned from him in those moments.
But EMC… this guy was amazing. First night I met him, dead sober (he never drank alcohol), he grabbed some girl in the subway, chatted with her for 2 minutes and kissed her. He shocked me how good he was, I’d never seen anything like that. He could do that everywhere. He was so “potent,” he wouldn’t take numbers… just give his number out, and fuck any girl that called him (he was so good, he didn’t even try to spin plates, which saved him a tremendous amount of time). He would either get girls to call him, or he would pull same night.
EMC: “I can give you my number, or I can take you home and fuck you right now. Your choice.”
And I saw him take girls home like that. He was a great teacher. One of the smoothest, most confident men I’ve ever met. No gimics. Just a solid man.
My point is… I was learning fast, and getting much more bold when I was around Hurricane and EMC in those months when we all ran together. It was great. Probably much better than a coach.
If you’re the guy at the bottom, good luck trying to develop the cockiness, dominance and swagger of the guy at the top. The guy at the top is wanted, the guy at the bottom is both invisible and disposable – to women. The guy at the top will say “let’s go” and “come here”, the guy at the bottom will try to give her reasons not to run away.
When women meet men they automatically screen, very fast, to find the guy at the top. Which is easy because it’s where all the action is happening. It doesn’t matter how many lower guys are at the same location. She’ll do whatever it takes to either go for the top guy directly or do room politics, group politics to make herself available for that guy. If she’s in multiple groups at the same time, she’ll do this with different guys in different rooms at the same time (!).
If you meet her on the street or wherever else and she doesn’t drop her panties it’s because you didn’t convey you’re the guy on the top.
The reason being, most likely the case you have to be doing Game at all is that you’re the guy at the bottom. Look at that constipated face.
The guy at the top gets offered no puzzle no resistance etc.
The guy at the bottom gets a wall.
A guy that is not easy to pinpoint at either will be offered a sequence of puzzles. The puzzles are designed to make the guy reveal if he’s a top or bottom guy.
All the set of traits of behaviors etc that are congruent with the top guy are attractive, all the sets from the lower guy are unattractive. But the poles are so strong everything gets tainted. For example all other things being equal, if you put “pedestalization” on the guy on the top, it will become an attractive form of pedestalization, while on the guy on the bottom it will be straight off creepy.
This is the most important thing in game.
I am listening.
>> A guy that is not easy to pinpoint at either will be offered a sequence of puzzles. The puzzles are designed to make the guy reveal if he’s a top or bottom guy.
So, question for you:
I was out last night with a new girl. I brought her to this restaurant I love. They always give me a table where I can sit side by side, because they know that it what I want. I’ve done this with 4 other girls at this place alone this trip. Never a problem.
This girl gets to the table, and refuses to sit side by side. I tell her I don’t sit across from each other like it’s a job interview, but she refuses, gets a little serious. So I concede. I think I lost right there.
>> The guy at the top gets offered no puzzle no resistance etc.
I agree. If I had more value, was higher up on the ladder, this wouldn’t have been an issue (most likely not).
Given I got this reaction, I assume she wasn’t sure where I was at… she came out with me, I was her best option or we know she would not have come out, but I had this puzzle to deal with…
— What would you have done, with that puzzle?
This has happened to me once before, and that date never felt right, and that relationship went nowhere… was part of some “downward momentum” for me. Fuck that. That’s not opportunity.
Last night, I almost gave her the choice: Sit next to me or leave. Right now, I think that’s what I would do if I had it to do over. No getting mad, telling her she is a great just the way she is, but that those are my terms, and I’m not interested in arguing about it. I wish I had done that, if only as an experiment.
I don’t think that’s “good game.” But I know that when I lose a battle like that, I’ve lost the relationship. I would rather lose then/there, than slowly bleed value in her eyes (and mine) over time. That sucks.
We had a good date… but I hated being stuck on my side of the table. I know I impressed her, many times at dinner, but she ran off for drinks w/ friends after.
“I am listening.”
Cool, note that all Im going about here is that top and bottom are actual posts – the one at the bottom is a slave (for real) of the top guy, carrying him around and being hit with a stick. The guy at the top has all the leisure time and doesn’t give a shit while he rubs his cock on things. For the guy at the bottom learning game and talking to girls will be an uphill battle, for the guy at the top will be a walk on the park, as he’ll get many many more opportunities, and basically he just has to keep being himself from that place.
So that girl.
“This girl gets to the table, and refuses to sit side by side.”
Right. So the girls puzzle and girl progressions.
They allow you a space where you can make a move. They need to see your move so they can progress you to the next step. This is the same you do. Where I make emphasis is in that you look at her so you know where SHE is at, so you can go as fast as she goes – since girls go extremely fast when they see alpha, which means no barriers and no micro steps – and going slower than she does means missing the beat and showing that you’re a bottom guy who expects to be put to work, instead of a top guy who expects being rewarded pussy.
So she doesn’t want to sit next to you, it means that she’s not ready yet, she wants to see you across the table performing some other shit before she’s sure you have what she wants – alpha dick.
Which is not a big deal and does’t matter.
A few hours back you were across the street and she didn’t know you. She didn’t come to you and suck your dick. She came and you hit on her and she gave your her contact and she’s at step X in her lust scale towards you. Figure where she is and deliver the X remaining so she opens and you can take her.
That most likely means sitting across the table and going on with life.
Sitting next to her shouldnt be a fixed point of your game. This is similar to relying on the chessecake, and what can happen when you ask if they like it and they say ‘no’. What then, game ruined?
She’s there because she wants the cock, the rest is further screening and logistics.
“I agree. If I had more value, was higher up on the ladder, this wouldn’t have been an issue (most likely not).”
Some girls still wont do X thing if that’s out of their boundaries. Maybe sitting next to a guy is in her out of boundaries list, but she’ll still suck your dick. Who knows and who cares. Firecraker is giving you pussy but not kisses. Laundry lists. Ignore barriers and move on.
“What would you have done, with that puzzle?”
Sit across to her and resume as normal.
“Sit next to me or leave.”
That can be a very powerful line – IF what she needs to see from you is dominance.
But why do you care that much?
It can also come across as you validating yourself through her (which is what’s going on here). Your value should come from you being the top guy. She’s gaining access to you. Play the part.
“I know I impressed her, many times at dinner, but she ran off for drinks w/ friends after.”
She may still come back.
“Yohami, your Zen stuff is hard to get, and I don’t think beginners are ready for it.” -Nash
“There is one where Jon is talking to a French girl before an Instadate. She goes off on a tangent about wanting to find movies to rent to learn English. She meant well but it was a dead end and he was able to bring it back by changing the topic to her jewelry. I see this as basic social intelligence that is also learned with time.” -Supertramp
i remember this one!
actually i think that was sort of a shit test. she started sort of treating him like her assistant. help me with this, help me with that. he ignored that thread because he was not her servant. he brought it back to making it sexual, about him and her.
“The guy at the top gets offered no puzzle no resistance etc. The guy at the bottom gets a wall. A guy that is not easy to pinpoint at either will be offered a sequence of puzzles. The puzzles are designed to make the guy reveal if he’s a top or bottom guy.”
this is excellent.
“I was out last night with a new girl. I brought her to this restaurant I love. They always give me a table where I can sit side by side, because they know that it what I want. I’ve done this with 4 other girls at this place alone this trip. Never a problem.
This girl gets to the table, and refuses to sit side by side. I tell her I don’t sit across from each other like it’s a job interview, but she refuses, gets a little serious. So I concede. I think I lost right there.”
excellent question and excellent reply from yohami.
i am listening and learning too.
Sir, this was a very motivating post. I have only one question. If I had close to zero experience with daygame, and zero experience with daygame at high volume, should I avoid girls that are in groups? Should I be approaching girls that are alone? Are shopping malls good place?
There is more than one question here. You’re off to a bad start. : ]
Some guy long ago said the “lone wolf” (aka girls on their own, the “1 set”) should be the main focus of the seducer. I am with that, 100%. I almost never open up 2 sets, let alone groups. Managing a group is very hard, and you usually have to start indirect.
I almost only approach girls that are on their own, and I go direct… I tell them I like them… or something about them. The compliment. Or something stronger than a compliment (sometimes).
Yeah… there is no need to be approaching anything but solo girls for now.
Here is the thing, though. How nervous are you? And do you have any other choices??
If you’re very nervous, the mall can be a tough spot, as security will notice if you’re acting “weird” around girls.
Being nervous as a beginner is totally normal. I was. But if people can see you’re nervous, you’ll probably make at least some of the girls nervous, and people will notice, and mall workers may get involved, or security might mess with you.
If the mall is a prime place.. you don’t want to get kicked out of the mall.
There is nothing wrong with talking to girls in the mall. I have talked to at least 200 girls in malls. I have never had a problem… but I can make it look pretty normal. So nobody cares what I am doing.
If you look normal… or if the girl is happy… you’re fine.
When you’re a beginner, you might be too nervous to look normal, so… if you can practice on the street… it’s a safer place to work out your first 200 sets or so. Then, you’ll be more calm/smooth/natural… and the mall will be no problem.
But if the mall is your only option… then practice there. But try to look calm, so that the mall workers don’t feel like they need to get involved… and so the girls are comfortable.
Good luck, man. Any questions, let me know.
Thank you for the tips. I think I’ll pass any questions now and just get to doing.