On Marriage | Quality Women are Made (by Men)
I have some thoughts on marriage and long-term relationships… and many of them are not my own. I am going to curate a compilation of some of those thoughts, forging together notes from several points of view. I have a conclusion (which is also not my own) – and pays tribute to a fascinating article by Illimitable Man.
In the way of a brief introduction, I am 45 and not married (nor do I plan to be). I was once certain I would be married with kids. Today I will allow for the possibility (maybe in 10 years), but I am not at all tempted to get started anytime soon… at this point in my life, being a bachelor is too much fun.
As you might be able to tell, I am not trying to sell marriage here. Not really. I have a bigger, better axe to grind.
But I do wonder about this topic. For myself. For other men (not all of them are going to want the life of a seducer). And for society at large (which I happen to care about).
To begin to bring in the comments of other men, I’ll start here:
It has been interesting to watch the Renegade Playboy Troy Francis go off about traditional conservatives (TradCons), monogamy, and marriage. In many ways, I feel almost safe to let him speak for me on this topic:
Far from being meaningless, the player's life can be the most meaningful of all.
Without the shackles of marriage and domesticity, he is free to pursue artistic and creative projects to his heart's content.
— Troy Francis (@RenegadePlayboy) January 2, 2019
While I won’t claim that men in the Player Class find the most meaning in life, I like the thrust of his sentiment all the same. Not bad. But this piece is not about being a bachelor. It is about a more traditional path:
What if we did want to get married? For kids. For the potential fulfillment. For the legacy. For the promise of the “full catastrophe” of family life?
That is legit too. Despite what I write about here (and how I choose to spend my time) I really believe that.
I admire (strong) husbands and (good) fathers.
In fact, I am influenced by the values and strength of traditional men all the time. I am very much convinced that marriage and family is the best thing for Western Civilization… even if that isn’t true for what I personally want out of life (there is no conflict in saying that). It’s the best thing for kids. I admire all of that and I encourage it.
This week, a guy left this comment on my blog:
“This is more about being a good role model to my sons and creating a legacy to leave them, than it is about ‘me’ at this point. I’m quite a proponent of finding a true, meaningful vision greater than oneself and setting an azimuth to truly be a good captain. I suspect very few men can pull off a happy marriage in today’s age, but those who can will reap greater rewards due to the greater inherent risks.”
“To truly be a good captain.” I like that. And I think that is an example of a value system that is common in the best of traditional patriarchal men.
And yet, most of us are over-trained in the idea of sacrifice (even if we don’t practice it). It’s in the culture and it’s in our DNA as men… to protect and serve. I would not do marriage in the spirit of sacrifice. Full no to that. Children don’t need a martyr, they need a “good role model.”
If we retain the principle in Men’s Culture of the importance of “put yourself first,” we can still make a case for marriage that could co-exist with those terms.
Speaking of “what is in it for us?,” this post was inspired by the Tweet below from Ryan Stephens:
Married people in the West are happier, healthier, and better protected against economic setbacks and psychological depression.
They enjoy higher incomes and greater emotional support.
You don't need to disavow marriage.
You need to vet better.
— Ryan Stephens ? (@ryanstephens) January 19, 2019
That last line is important: “You need to vet better.” Hmmmm. Interesting. We’ll come back to that.
As for the rest of his comment, I am a committed bachelor, but even still I think Ryan is correct.
While divorce might be a death blow for many men, a high-functioning marriage could be nourishment for a successful life. It could serve as support for a man’s goals beyond his family (his art, his business, even his pastimes). The economic benefits (for the legacy of the family) is a solid argument.
Most of Ryan’s claims are true for most people. Marriage is not only better for society, but it likely IS better for most men (if you can hold it to a high standard). It is a better foundation for most of us than that of the “individual contributor,” for all of the reasons Ryan mentions and more.
(Of course there are many, many valid arguments for why you should NOT get married, but I’m not wearing that particular hat today. For more on that see TheRedQuest. He is also not wrong.)
The TradCons would support the argument Ryan is making there. Even as there is little about my lifestyle the TradCons would condone, I have a strong conservative streak in my thinking. I have many conservative values and I certainly have old fashioned discipline and that kind of work ethic. In another life, I would try to live as they do.
That is… assuming I could start with the right girl. Ryan talks about “vetting.” What would that look like? “The right girl?” This line of inquiry feeds us deeper into the point of this piece.
But first… a little counter-argument. To help round out this discussion, let’s bring in some representation from men that aren’t sold on the prospect of a lifetime with a woman.
Where dem quality women at? https://t.co/KYuw1aMroE
— Flat Lander ??????? (@flatlanderorg) January 19, 2019
We hear this a lot, right? No quality women.
Flatlander is not wrong. He is cynical… but he is not wrong.
There is an argument to be made that “quality” women aren’t easy to identify. Not in general. And are
especially certainly hard to find in the current culture. I’ll leave it to the #complainpill guys (false-heroes like Rollo) to bitch and moan forever about “muh feminine imperative.” But whining about the state of the culture (and nature, for that matter) is a waste of our time. But I can see what is going on. I know a lot of (otherwise) reasonable men feel that way.
I live in the US (for now) and don’t date American women. Like… never. I approach them sometimes (often as I don’t realize they are American). But those sets are never as fun as non-Western women. There is something there.
We have a problem in the West. With the girls… and also with ourselves as men (which is where I’ll focus). And this piece is about solutions, but first more comments from other guys.
Here is something from Janka (a hero of mine). Last I heard, he wanted to retire from his legendary tour of game and have a ton of kids:
“I am 34, my girlfriend is 22, I want a big family… I have an idea of being the leader of my family. For me, it’s important I have someone of very high character. I need someone I can rely on. A flimsy girl is going to breakdown underneath me. I need a strong woman of high character. I want her young enough that she has a lot of child bearing years ahead. At 22, she can have a lot of kids. And attractive, good sex.”
I like that too. There is a man that fucked over 300 girls. And he enjoyed himself. But he wanted to see the other side too. Good for him. He is not wrong.
And he wanted to be the leader of a family. That is a great way to say it. That is a spirit I can admire.
But notice he is looking for a girl of “very high character.” We are back to “vetting.” That is certainly part of the formula… part of it.
Let’s get back to Flatlander’s suggestion that this whole plan hinges on finding a quality woman. What is the way to find her?
And now I turn my focus to that essay by Illimitable Man I mentioned in the opening to this post:
“Women of Substance are Made, Not Born”
That is a red-hot title. And the words that follows it back up that claim very well. Excellent piece of writing. Well done.
I don’t know all that much about Illimitable Man. I have bumped into him a few times in the fray of Men’s Twitter. But I certainly like his thinking in the post I cite above.
(And UPDATE: Krauser continues to quote IM, and via those quotes from Krauser, I’ve come to like IM even more.)
Let’s start off by letting Illimitable answer Flatlander’s question:
“If you want yourself a desirable woman you will have to cultivate femininity and desirability into her yourself if you deem she has the necessary raw material to become a desirable lady worthy of raising a family with, wife material.”
Hmmm, yeah. I like that. That line is doing a lot of things right. If you want a good wife… you have to build her yourself.
That’s heavy. And it’s genius. And it goes well beyond “vetting.”
“Heed me when I say that all red pill women are trained by men, they are not magically born out of the womb, a ‘unicorn’ is merely a high quality red pill woman raised, cultivated and overseen by men of value, integrity and intelligence.”
I see this in the girls I date (and quite often, in the men I work with). You can tell when some strong male presence has made a difference in their lives. I see evidence of this line of thought in my own progress in game.
In recent posts about Pixie Girl and Baby Dragon, I talked about “training them.” As I talk about wrangling these girls I have been using phrases like “shaping her behavior.” In a recent post on Twitter I gave an example of “telling her what she thinks.” I believe I am in the spirit of Illimitable’s advice when I lead those girls in that way. I believe this is what the best men do with the girls in their lives.
And girls will blossom and glow in the light of that kind of strong, masculine attention.
I was not thinking of Illimitable’s thesis in any of those times… but at the higher levels of masculine psychology (and I think I am somewhere in the middle, but angled up, for certain), we are all starting to do the same things (in perhaps different ways).
I know a lot of guys that read this blog are not married. They are still trying to work up the nerve to talk to some girl on the street (and I seriously respect that stage), to boldly take her number (you can do it, man), to lead her through a date that ends with her ankles in the air (hallelujah)… or over the course of several dates, to establish these girls as happy spinning plates (=recurring revenue).
But there are deep parallels in the work we do as bachelors versus what Illimitable is showing us in terms of setting up the basis for a family… at the level of frames and the ability to wrangle the minds and behaviors of our girls.
We are talking about female psychology. And masculine psychology. Maybe especially our own minds. I will write soon about “do looks matter” (the fucking dumbest argument in pickup), and when I do, I will continue to hammer on the point that the meat and potatoes of what we need to learn in game is the psychology of it all. The power there is light-years beyond your pickup line, your “rescue text,” or the squareness of Chad’s jawline.
Chad can attract sumptuous pussy, but can he cultivate the behavior he wants in a woman? Can you see how those are night/day different skills? If he can “cultivate femininity and desirability” he is more than Chad. He is the man I want to be.
It’s about how solid you can make your own mind. So solid… that your command of the world infects the girls. Your world becomes calm and orderly. The reckless, testing nervousness within her relaxes into grace. Beautiful. That is her, but it is also your impact on her. We are talking about a kind of psychological work, but if done with art… this is all very sexy, indeed.
One of the most important parts of advanced game (and mastery of life, for that matter) is in the concept of “mental frames.” I won’t go into definitions here, but the idea that “good women are made, not born,” is itself a mental frame. Can you handle that concept? Do you believe it? If you do not, you will never be able to create that reality. I bet some of the guys that will read this have done this work in their lives already. For others, it’ll be shocking… or seem like too much work.
“For those of us who have neither the time nor the inclination to practice the patience required to effectively create our own red pill woman, indulging in the idea of red pill women is not an option.”
That’s right. But the default for most men is not glorious relationship. It is mediocrity, or worse. Most men were not supposed to breed, let alone lead (and those things are closely linked). There is alpha. But Sigma also leads. And Upper Betas do quite a bit of leading as well (within their own fiefdoms). These men have the best chance of making marriage work. And they are the men that hold society together.
At this point, we have gone beyond Ryan Stephan’s note about vetting. Vetting is a search for raw materials. From those materials… you begin to build what you want to see in the world.
And we have more than answered Flatlander’s question. For men with the POV he represented in that line, I’m not sure they’ll like the answer. They can’t wait (or hope or pray) for the “culture to change.” They’ll have to start with the best material they can find… and then build her themselves. They will have to make their own glory. And they will have to know what they really want.
Don’t kid yourself. It has always been so.
It might not be worth it to you. Or more likely, you might not have the stones and the force of will to make it happen. But if you choose to accept this mission, Illimitable has more for you in his post:
“Typically you want her to have had a father who was a patriarch, a dominant man who taught her discipline…”
Many men with insight into women’s heads know this is true.
“In essence, this is why women tend to look for ‘men who were like their fathers,’ they seek dominance in which they can trust, and it is this dominance which allows them to remain emotionally stable, offloading their neuroticism onto the stoicism of the man that they pair with.”
“Offloading their neuroticism.” Imagine a man so strong, he can calm her nervous system. A man so expansive he can subsume her entirely. No just for an hour (which is hard enough), but mostly eliminate that from her behavior within the structure of a relationship.
If you’re lucky, you inherit the “raw materials” of a proper “marriageable” women from another man that has raised her to be exactly that. Most likely her dad. Or perhaps a previous lover.
“[T]hey are guided by a social network of traditionally minded matriarchs…”
And perhaps from a family where mom “got it,” knew what a partnership with a quality man was all about, and helped shape her daughters for that role. Not to capture his paycheck, but to procure his patronage. These women are more common than we think.
“No matter the woman, she will test your patience; this is just women full-stop.”
Can you follow that? He is saying something really powerful here.
This is where the notion of vetting isn’t enough. Not only will you not find a “unicorn,” but even once you’ve shaped a girl into a pattern of relating that brings out the highest potential of her, yourself, and the coupling… “unicorn maintenance” will still test your capacity as a man… over and over again.
“All she does is devotion… then ‘fuck you!’… then devotion… then ‘fuck you!’ That’s the feminine.”
— David Deida
You have to build a relationship with a women to even create that state of devotion. And even then… that “fuck you” hiss of the chaotic feminine will be there to find you when you are not bringing your best game.
Are women an incredible pain in the ass? Yes. They are. But the same woman will be out of control for one man and submissive and sweet for another. Why? Because one guy is “better looking?” Hardly. This is about frame. And about having done your inner work so you shine through the mud of circumstance.
No one said being a great man would be easy.
This is a deep, deep answer to a puzzle many men will attempt to solve. Illimitable is laying out. He is pointing to where the responsibility lies. It starts with vetting, but then… it lies with you.
Femininity is like water, flowing over any circumstance or pouring into new life, refreshing and purifying the harsh landscape of life.
And without boundaries, containers, channels- a few chosen vessels, femininity risks being as useless as spotched puddles on a muddied floor.
— Rachel (@tradpoaster1000) January 23, 2019
h/t ^ Propatriarch.
How do you have a stable marriage? Or a zero-drama girlfriend? Or a solid date?
You make it so.
You do that through the mastery of the elements of “game” (the psychology) that extend into something as far reaching as marriage. Through your discipline, your wisdom, and the ownership of your own psychology, you provides a “nest” where her psychology can settle in, root down, and provide the radiance to raise delightful kids.
Before I go on… it is typical of the way I review a piece of work like a book or a product (or in this case, a post) that I include some criticism. And I will do that here, and in part, I already started when I talked about the impotent whining of men like Rollo:
“In today’s Anglosphere and western European civilizations should typically expect very little of women, so few are worthy of anything more than a rumble in the hay simply because they haven’t been raised right.”
I don’t totally disagree with that statement, but in lines like that one Illimitable sounds a little too #complainpill for my tastes. I’m not saying that men that go on about these points are wrong… I am saying that beyond a proper understanding of the features of female psychology (that are aggravated by modernity) we need to get to work on our lives, instead of playing the role of sad, ineffective “analysts.”
Okay, there is my disclaimer about the first part of Illimitable’s post. There are more lines like that, but you get the point.
What I like about Illimitable’s piece is that it is much more than whining or angry posturing about “the wymens.” It’s actionable. We can create the world we want to live in. You are not only “at the effect” of culture, you build your own culture from the ground up. That is the part where we should focus our attention. That is powerful. That is a way forward.
Of course this idea didn’t originate with Ill. Lots of men have this kind of steel in their veins.
Women behave according to what you tolerate, not according to what you wish for. Set her clear rules, tasks, limits and she will blossom. Tell her how you want her to be. Be a man! pic.twitter.com/dXMJxgCOGp
— propatriarchy (@AerthoPhoriz) January 24, 2019
I can’t say enough about the calm, certain, masculine vibe coming off of Propatriarchy’s account. No complaining there. Only leadership. It’s inspiring. This is what I wish for men. For all of us.
I talked about Frames. It is my hope that we hold each other to this level of ownership over our lives. That we solidify the “frame” that we start with a clean vision of what we want, what we expect of women in our care, and then build exactly that. First, see it. Feel it. Then be it. Make that frame solid. Then push that frame out. Extend that level of consciousness with such certainty that the women around you feel you to your roots. Capture their attention and their faith. Then lead them. And they will melt inside the solid walls of your mindset, your dedication, your hard work, your wise decisions.
And they will love you for it.
“The biggest flattery of all to women, which only an intelligent woman will realise, is that despite the sheer frustration and pain she causes him with her volatile emotivity, is that such a man still chooses to stick with her and provide for her despite her shortcomings.”
— Illimitable Man
There is some cheerful misogyny right there and I like it.
It won’t be easy. But you can do it. She needs you to. So do your future kids. You need it (even if you’re only talking about taking a girl on weekend adventure).
Should you get married? Maybe. If you do it right, it will likely be the best thing you could do for the future (if not yourself). If you’re not rock solid yet, take on as much responsibility as you can carry, and before you try to lead a tribe… put yourself first. Fix yourself first. Work your way up to being a proper patriarch. That is my plan. In some ways I am already there. In other ways… I have much work to do.
And if you’re a player, you can take these lessons into how you manage your plates.
On a shorter timeline, you can shape the behavior of the girls you date, even within the space of a single date – I know this for a fact, I have done it. Over a few days, you can transform a girl’s behavior (at least in terms of how she shows up for you). Once this is established (“how it starts is how it goes”) you can have a happy, stable, no-drama girl on your hands.
Show her a man she has rarely seen. Demand of her a woman that is worth the care and attention of such a man. Be that man.
“Even single girls should have a male guardian, a reliable male contact person who advises them on their decisions and also confirms them.”
Quality women are made by men. This is leadership. And it’s beautiful.
Once again, much respect to all the brave, “tall” men out there leading women and children through the wilderness. I respect you. You hold much of civilization together. And I admire that very much.
It’s a big matter of your goals. Do you want kids? Do you want them to grow up with mom and dad in the same household? And what kind of woman do you want to help raise your kids? … So many people rail against marriage when they should first be railing against monogamy. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
“We hear this a lot, right? No quality women.
Flatlander is not wrong. He is cynical… but he is not wrong.”
What is this?? You can’t be serious that not one… single… woman… is “quality”.
I like your POV, man.
Okay… I’ll extend the position I am representing here. I can play both sides of this argument, and I am actually better at the other side… but I’ll continue being “conservative” for this response.
I think being anti-monogamy is part of the “slippery slope” that has The West in trouble. (Again, I am not monogamous, but I also have a lifestyle most men do not have, and can’t have, as it’s too much work).
We preach anti-monogamy and then we get fatherless homes. I think it’s nearly a direct line. It’s highly Leftish… it’s “embracing” of “anything goes.” And the TradCons are right… that is a formula to take the West backwards, away from civilization. We will look more/more like 3rd world countries if we keep this up.
We don’t have to guess. In the West we have more/more fatherless homes (one of the worst things that can happen to a country) AND/OR… no new births. Both are a dead end.
You’re right, it IS about kids. And if you want kids… we can argue for non-mongamy, but we will end up like Socialists… claiming over/over that “it just hasn’t been done right yet,” when really, it can’t be done right. Non-monogamy is fine (if you don’t care about kids), but if you do… it’s the beginning of the end.
If you want kids… you should preach monogamy. I don’t care if you live by it. But rules we cheat on are better than no rules at all.
We don’t have to guess. It’s happening all around us.
There are solutions that work, and they are traditional ones (rules + side action).
As players… we “should” (there is no should, but I’ll go on) support tradition… and then be devious on the side. That actually works. The % of people that will be devious will be small (redpill/Secret Society) and the rest will try to live “decent’ (bluepillers).
As redpill men, we have been trying wake up for so long, we forget that the people that are “asleep” keep the trains running. We need that.
If you’re a man, and want kids, but can’t do monogamy… I think you try to do Illimitables monogamy, and have quiet discreet affairs on the side. This works. It has worked for thousands of years. It’s how conservatives deal with non-monogamy. They never admit it… they look like they are “playing by the rules,” and it works. The kids get mom/dad, society gets connections and stability, the Church still has influence… and mom fucks the pool boy and dad fucks his secretary and the baby sitter. This works… especially if you keep things discreet.
There are no pretty answers… but this already works. It’s messy. If you can actually do monogamY (which, let’s face it, is even more sex than the avg guy would have without it), do that. Monogamy is perfect, but it’s far better than anything else. Lesser of two evils.
Lesser of two evils. Lesser of two evils. Lesser of two evils.
So… I will remain a dangerous cad, but I won’t do much damage. And I’ll support mainstream tradition… because it works… as endless “openness” on the left is a path to bottom. We can do better than that.
My 2 cents.
You are on fire with this stuff. So much so, I won’t share your blog with the guys I’ve managed to redpill. They’re likely to burn themselves. Better they should find it on their own when/they are ready.
Enough of the flattery and now to the point. It’s actually perfect you quoted me in this post, because I recently got into a discussion with someone about this. So many people lament the fact that all these women are whores. I’m like, yeah so what? Play the hand you are dealt.
My wife was big into the festival scene, drugs and casual sex are the norm in that world. I was in the beginning of my red pill journey when I met her, following Rollo’s work. Perhaps I was a bit naive to think wifing her up was a good idea, but I got her pregnant and decided to make the best of it.
“Devotion… Fuck you! Devotion… Fuck you!” This is something that I believe even a “Top Guy” will have to deal with. I noticed that as I climb higher in life, her expectations of me climb as well. Briffault’s law doesn’t even begin to do justice on just how audacious female entitlement is. When you are a drunk captain, she will low level nag on a constant basis, but when you are making serious gains on a consistent basis, the slightest mistake will bring out a tantrum of worried insecurity based on her fear of you veering off course.
Knowing she can be replaced won’t always keep her in line, either. There comes a point when she will start threaten to fire a cannon straight into the hull as a really shitty comfort test. The shit women can pull can surprise even the most seasoned alphas. I do not advocate marriage, simply because I know that most guys will screw it up and I don’t want to feel in any way responsible for broken families. Even a lot of “hot guys” screw it up royally.
On another note, while I haven’t read a single thing I disagree with you on(which has never happened in all my surfing) I will give Rollo some credit. He was my morpheus, so to speak. I do believe he’s weak, but he has helped many guys begin their journey and for that I see that he is somewhat necessary, just as it is necessary for most of society be blue pilled. One often overlooked theme in the matrix trilogy was when he hacked the sentinels with his brain to save the nebuchadnezzar in the second movie, which told the audience the rabbit hole was a lot deeper than we thought. In my view, Rollo would be an entry level test to the mystery schools of game, so to speak.
Ok, enough of my esoteric waxing. Thanks again.
Great post. I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately.
I was thinking about you quite a bit when I wrote the post… I know you haven’t really heard me argue this position much before.
Especially when I wrote about Janka. As you level out toward mastery, I could see you making similar calculations.
Or… maybe the parade of NYC Russian girls in your life (from daygame, I should add) will be too compelling for you to be tempted by domesticity?
Good to see your post here. You have great insight. I’ll be quoting your “stable” stuff here in some post or another, I am sure.
Nash – great post. I agree with what you’ve written and it completely matches my experience. Women need men to lead them and provide them the “rock” they need to balance them against the storm of her own emotions.
“they seek dominance in which they can trust, and it is this dominance which allows them to remain emotionally stable, offloading their neuroticism onto the stoicism of the man that they pair with.”
This quote is well said and a reminder of what we need to be as men with our women, whether they’re wives, girlfriends, sisters, or women we’re dating.
As you know I’m the strong silent (stoic) type and this is a large part of the draw for the women who go for me. The crave this.
There’s a reason the word “husband” in a marriage is the same word as in “animal husbandry”. Women are primal and need to be led.
Great comments, man.
Hmm. I have been quoting Deida a lot lately. And when I see your comment (and since I know you personally), I can imagine a girl bringing her emotional tempest to you, the experience of being with you actually adding more emotion to her, and her pouring that into you… and when she can’t overwhelm you… she finally calms down. She has found a place to rest. She can trust you.
Deida would tell a similar story. I can see you doing all that.
Years ago I was super into the Dog Whisperer. And he says “rules, boundaries and limitations.” When a dog doesn’t have those, it acts up. It thinks it IS the pack leader, and unless its calm, it will push un-calm into the household. The DW taught those owners to reestablish themselves as the pack leader, to set boundaries, and it worked… those dog were much happier… no more drama. The needed the rules, boundaries, and limitations.
This goes on and on.
For any one flinching at this (and you should not, but I can see why some guys might)… a woman COULD DO THIS (sometimes)… and women play this role WITH THEIR KIDS (are you her son?)… but women rarely do this for men… and if they do… why would she want that kind of man?? If you even want her to do this for you… it means she has to look elsewhere for someone to do it for her.
We all want somethings to “hold us.” And as men, the buck stops at us. That is our job. To “husband” her… even if we’re just dating.
>>That last line is important: “You need to vet better.” Hmmmm. Interesting. We’ll come back to that.
I agree that better vetting is important but it is not a panacea. Humans are complicated and change over the course of life. People are unpredictable and even if she seems like a family-oriented and loyal woman at her current age she may get bored, want to experience the wild sex everyone else gets, etc. at her age +5 years or +10 years.
Vetting is imperfect.
Which leads us to this:
>>(Of course there are many, many valid arguments for why you should NOT get married, but I’m not wearing that particular hat today. For more on that see TheRedQuest. He is also not wrong.)
The best resource for this subject is Real World Divorce, http://www.realworlddivorce.com, which covers what happens in the REAL WORLD when people get divorced. In the United States anyone can initiate divorce for any reason and, in most cases, take half of marital assets. The person who makes less money can typically request alimony from the person who makes more money.
Even a man who “vets well” and then marries is marrying into a system in which a woman is financially incentivized to divorce him and take his money. Does that sound like a smart thing to do?
A man who marries a woman who makes substantially more than him can make sense for the man, but that is an unlikely real-world outcome.
It is advantageous for women to sue for child support rather than to marry: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/ChildSupportLitigationWithoutMarriage
>>Why do states financially reward what was traditionally considered bad-for-children behavior? “It took sociologists a long time to come around to the view that two-parent families were good for children on average. One reason is that they thought that social institutions are inherently oppressive things: Traditional marriage is necessarily coercive, and it stymied our liberty and freedom and it was an institution that promoted gender inequality,” noted Jon Shields, a professor of Government at Claremont McKenna College, in The Atlantic (April 30, 2016).
Do not trust me, however, just talk to any “family” law attorneys you know, or any man you know who has been divorced.
I still think having kids is important (eventually) for guys, despite the fact that the system is set up to screw men. When you marry, you are signing up to get screwed even harder than you are if you don’t marry.
This might seem nit-picky, but I think Deida’s idea here is true, but only from the frames of reference of a top beta or an alpha. There is a level above Alpha. You are talking about that level a lot in your post.
I’ve been writing for years about how women are trained, not found, and over time even now I’m getting better at it. Recently I mentioned how there I’m finding it easier for there to be sublimely less conflict. Three years with V with little to zero arguments, despite some serious relationship stress such as other girls. I’ve mentioned before that her gracious and warm character imprinted on me a bit, helping me to have a lower conflict relationship with my current live in, J.
So my experience now does not match the Deida quote at all.
I don’t get any fuck yous. As close to zero fuck you’s as imaginable. Even on her period.
You hit the nail on the head a few times in your blog post. The guy can be an environmental influence, as well as an in the moment manager, or “wrangler”. When shit tests happen, they look very different, and the level of sophistication in managing them can be sublime and simply funny. Shit tests can be just fun banter, instantly defused.
The reason I make this “nit-pick”, is because I don’t think we can keep saying over and over “yea, but most guys aren’t at that level yet. Let’s just talk about the level people can understand and relate to, so that it’s not confusing.” We can’t always keep things at a 101 level forever.
Even if you are studying high school algebra, it helps to have some idea about what advanced maths are out there and what they can do. You need to know what can lie ahead, if you keep at it. You’ll never get anywhere if you think that maths end at algebra.
I suppose we need a name for the level above alpha, where the man’s environmental influence already profoundly calms the woman down, and shit tests are handled so deftly that they change the very character of the shit test from anything resembling “fuck you” to opportunities for mutual fun play.
There is defininitely a level far far above what we mean by alpha.
Wizard could work.
[…] In reply to Nash’s post about marriage […]
Good article Nash, and I have been enjoying your comments on Xsplat’s blog.
First thing that comes to mind is this: ‘Science’ keeps telling us that ‘us’ – what ever distinguishes ‘us’ from the rest – is determined probably ~80% by genetics, <~1% by environment, and ~20% by ‘something else.’ ‘Something else’ being a great mystery.
So whatever it is we like in a woman, and variation within the species being what it is, most of what we do is sort for what we like.
The ?possibly? deep idea is how does the sorting start to influence the sortee(s)?
That 20% ‘something else’ may be small compared to inborn tendencies, but it is all that we have any influence on. (If we have free will at all.)
At what point does a man’s “Willingness to take the L” as Patrice put it, his willingness to sort, to interview the NEXT, start working to change the dynamic? Can it also change the party of the second, as it were? The whole premise of pickup is that it starts to change YOU immediately. And then there is the old pua saw about finding quality women – “The women don’t get better as you progress. You get better.”
So the next level is that it starts to change the people around you.
And how the $^*& do you do this inside a relationship without destroying it. How can a woman be happy being loved by a man she perpetually dreads losing? That’s a better zen Koan for Xsplat.
How can we be committed to a ‘relationship’ or ‘marriage’ – whatever that means to you* – to loving a woman, and be committed to protecting ourselves and OUR children from whatever evil lies within her (as in all of our) heart? That is the zen part. Being committed to righteousness first, to a woman second. AND never sacrificing the second on the altar of the first. Forgiveness and all.
Its enough to make a guy think that he cannot possibly accomplish any of it without aid from the divine.
This is a super hot line. The right collection of guys could have a really fascinating conversation about this.
Okay. Yeah. This is in the realm of Top Guy.
I am a little in the weeds (and I want to get back up in the clouds), but SwingCat’s Masculine Polarity has some clues to love/life at this level.
When the “game” starts with your standards… if that is where it all builds from… anything that happens around you will be changed by those standards. Including her.
Compare that ^ to this v:
I have been feeling ^ this part, for some time. As I level up, women worth being with could meld with me in comfortable, organic ways. It’s been beautiful. I am pleased with myself, I love the girls, and I am grateful for the experiences.
But part of that is meeting the girl’s standards. You don’t ask. You’re not following orders or auditioning (that is all much lower level game or “male compliance”). But you are rising to level that meets her standards… so she plays. And that is great. And that is good game. I still have work to do at that level.
But imagine you rise to a level where she is working to your standards. This… at a very high level… will change her.
This ^ is super hot. Yeah.
This sounds like “Stage I,” controlling, “chest pounding alpha” kind of talk. “you will do what I say or else.”
But at “Stage 3” it is not like that. It’s leading her deeper than she can go on her own. It’s masculine. It’s a gift… and incredible gift.
Again, all this POV for me is coming from the classes I took with John Wineland. The thrust of the course was about getting the man to 1. be able to “feel” and HOLD more of her, and 2. to open her up so that that “more” was available. It was a learnable thing. He was “stretching our nervous systems” as John would say. And the sensation of all this “more” was intense, wild, deep, lovely, sexy, amazing, etc. Like the difference between weak coffee and a strong brew. Or between cheap ice cream and something truly rich and creamy and memorable.
This ^ was all in exercise. I learned a lot.
This is not as “woo woo” as it seems. This plays out at the level of your senses. A child could feel the end states I’m describing… in fact they do, often better than adults.
After I took that class (the first time)… I was trying to fuck some girl (a lovely girl, I liked her) and she “closed.” And I felt myself automatically use the “opening her” techniques I had learned from John. At the time, they were mostly non-sexual techniques. In bed, they were still non-sexual techniques, but in the service of sex.
The combination was explosive.
I saw all this as an example of “changing her” in that moment. I did that.
In broader ways (in a relationship, lets say), telling her “this is what we talk about, and this is how we feel about each other” is a way to “change her” through the conviction of what you want in a relationship. You are certain. Your frame is tight. You pull her into your frame.. and she is changed.
You deepen her. And… if you’re NOT deepening her, she won’t want to follow you. Why would she want to be less deep? (this is all Deida).
And as she goes deeper, shows you “more,” you love her for it. Really love her for it. And she is so rewarded by the experience, she is more and more willing to live in your world. She loves living in your world. She wants “more.” She wants to go deeper. Nobody makes her feel like this.
And the look in her eyes… that look makes you feel a way that you can’t feel otherwise. You have opened her. She is open. You see her openness and willingness and enthusiasm, her love, her compliance. And you feel it in SEX. It is so beautiful… you love her. And she can see it.
Romantic upward spiral.
It has nothing to do with “buying her flowers” or “being nice.” It’s intense leadership. Captaining her heart. Sailing her deeper into what could be. And the thrill of that experience for YOU.
If men need an incentive to find interest in this… the feeling of these dates is the difference between weak coffee and strong coffee. They “taste” much, much better.
And the sex… without doing anything athletic or nasty (although, that can certainly be in play too)… the sex is expansive. It “tastes” much, much better. The richest cream. The juiciest steak. The best meals you’ll ever eat.
The techniques are esoteric. But the rewards are easy to feel at the level of the skin and the orgasm (and beyond).
I am off topic about relationships and marriage… but if you can build from this place… I think they have a better chance.
This ^ I am not worried about. I think there is nothing to destroy until you build this. And if you build this, it is so extraordinary, she would never want to be anywhere else (assuming she is capable of this kind of relationship).
No dread. Dread is far away in all this. If she is feeling dread, that is her essential insecurity (as I see it), as I won’t be in a relationship where I have to instill dread.
If dread is coming up… there are mistakes being made somewhere.
This ^ is moving into defense. And as you use it, it’s wise to consider.
For me… I’m a bachelor. Dedicated bachelor. And I love my freedom. It is easy for me to have/enforce boundaries.
The kids part… slays me. I don’t know how to do it. That is in part why I do not have any. That is a level of responsibility I am not ready for.
This is far. I’m not religious… but the divine spans religion. Great relationships that last… probably do have an element of the diving in them. He brings it. She brings it. It’s part of the glue that binds them together so well over time.
Great comments man. Thank you.
Good article Nash, and I have enjoyed your comments on Xsplat’s blog.
My first thought is that ‘Science’ says that what determines the nature of any of us is due ~80% to genetics, <~1% environment, ~20% to ‘something else.’ With ‘something else’ being entirely a mystery.
Of course that 20% may be mighty powerful. Its all we can really concern ourselves with here, its what we might have some effect on, assuming we have free will at all. Its probably what differentiates civilization from barbarism.
But the primary thing we are doing in dating is sorting for some mixture of: traits that we like plus traits that don’t annoy the heck out of us.
The central question of game may be: At what point does “being willing to take the L” (As Patrice put it.) change you?
Can relentless action taken to sort change you? And further can it actually change the sortee? At what point will a woman start shaping her behavior to persuade a man by offering REWARD instead of doling out PUNISHMENT? Because that’s essentially the definition of a quality girl. Offers reward, doesn’t seek to punish. Trust and surrender.
The whole premise of pickup is that the willingness to go out and find girls plus the willingness to discriminate (and ability – abundance they call it) among them is enough to change women’s behavior toward a man. There is the old pua saw “The quality of girls doesn’t get better as you progress. You get better.”
[Cappy Cap posted a really heartfelt podcast recently telling a story about a woman who got knocked up and tried to lock down a friendly beta. Said beta reported he ‘had never know a girl could be so nice to him.’ Cleary realized that even the worst of the fairer sex have the ability to be delightful and nice, they just can’t maintain the behavior across time and circumstances. They inevitably switch back to punishment mode.]
So if willingness to work and willingness to sort are the building blocks of pua alpha, how do we stay alpha once we stop sorting? How do we communicate righteousness inside a relationship with a woman that is founded on commitment and forgiveness?
That’s the real zen Koan for Xsplat:
How the #@^% can a woman be happy and in love with us when she is in perpetual dread of losing us?
[Hint: as St. Patrice says “They’re not like us!]
How do we do this ‘settle down’ thing and stop sorting, without losing all we built? Once the karate class has graduated one above the rest? How do we not leave a woman if the willingness to leave a woman is what makes us King, and women have zero appreciation for the sacrifice that we make to stay?
Its enough to make a guy think it can’t be done without help from the divine.
BTW Jenka just popped up, having a discussion with Torero and Troy Francis, which posted a few days ago on Torero’s youtube channel.
My live in of 1 year dreams about me every night, and tells me about the dreams most mornings. A lot of the dreams are about me being with other girls. And she often asks me if I love her.
So she obviously has a lot of dread.
When she asks me to tell her if I love her, I mime zipping up my lips, and tell her that it’s a secret, because if I tell her she won’t work so hard to make me such delicious food.
I actually believe that.
I let her feel big love often enough, especially during sex. But;
1) I can’t fix anyone’s hole in the bottom of their loving cup. That’s not my job. Love and existential-love-angst go hand in hand, for most people, women perhaps more so.
2) Ya, my past karma of keeping multiple girlfriends is going to picked up by her. I suppose I’m a real risk. But I’m not struggling with that potential source of drama lately, and am unusually settled down. That’s the best I can offer. I’m not going to make any promises, because no one can promise genuine feelings. I’ve tried to promise monogamy before, and it didn’t work; it’s similar to an alcoholic promising to never drink again. Doesn’t work for everyone.
So her dread for us isn’t any sort of deal breaker, and I actually prefer it. Feeds my narcissistic supply.
Been there, done that. Never again. I’ve had healthy win-win relationships in my recent and medium term past, and am in one currently, that look nothing like that.
With J she started to get cunty consistently, and even though we were living together I soft nexted her. No way in hell am I ever going to live that way again. I stopped eating for 3 days, and for the next two months without fail ate only every second day, which was on gym days. I upped my game, and demanded better treatment. That turned things around, and she never dared be cunty again. When she slides a bit, I let her no, and she fears my wrath. My wrath can be very gentle now; she listens and corrects.
But I could not have done that with a personality disordered passive aggressive or low self-awareness girl.
Not all girls are like that, and either it’s your fault, or hers, or both.
You don’t have to live like that.
Ah, but you see, you still had to up your game and demand better treatment. She may not have said,”fuck you!” directly, but it was on it’s way had you not fixed it. That’s all I’m referring to in my comment. I will agree, nipping it in the bud before it gets worse is the best course of action, but to say a man is immune to a woman’s worst instincts without true, overt power over her is simply not possible.
My relationship with my wife currently is much like you described with J. It took a while to turn the ship, but now there is little to no drama, she doesn’t dare act up, and it is win/win for us both.
I’m quite certain this is why traditional, patriarchal societies gave men a default authority over women. Real authority will automatically set a baseline level of respect that a woman will instinctively know not to cross. Without that barrier in place, her hubris won’t be able to help itself but to test the waters from time to time, even if it is a pinky toe that can be corrected with a knowing glance and smirk.
Off topic but relevant to your comment: is the intermittent fasting really worth it? Do you still maintain a high level of muscle mass not eating everyday? I hear there’s a lot of health benefits, specifically when it comes to growth hormone production and slower aging, I just don’t want to lose all this hard earned muscle.
Ya, there were a few days there were it was getting out of hand. The comment that sent me over the edge, was where I was going to the can and she said “make sure that you wipe your ass”.
Actually, even a few nights ago she was getting just slightly out of line. It was because she was extremely horny, and I was ill and wouldn’t/couldn’t give her the release she craved. That’s a pretty common reason and time for shit tests, when the girl needs a good ravaging. Another sign is if simply if the girl gets bouncy and very talkative. Attention time usually means fuck me time.
Keeping the ravaging level high in general decreases the shit tests.
But it also tends to awaken sexuality, and sometimes hypersexuality. So lately my girl is off the charts horny like she’s never been before. Not sure if I want to go back to that several hours per day every day lifestyle, or even if I can, at this age. Might have to give her some curcumin extract for her stomach inflamation; for me curcumin destroys my libido.
Well that’s good to hear! Walking on eggshells was deeply troubling and even damaging for me, in the past.
As for intermittent fasting, I’m still able to gain muscle. I used to go to the gym only three days a week, as I read that you need the two day break once a week for best gains. But now I strictly go every second day, even if I’m still a bit sore from the last session. I put on weight very slowly anyway, so I can’t say if a 36 hour fast every two days slows down gain, but I can say it doesn’t stop muscle gain. It’s been very helpful for my chronic stomach inflammation, and I’m hoping for some anti-aging benefits.
Oh, and of course I still usually only eat every second day, and still maintain the gym regimen, and do everything else I can think of to maintain extremely sexually competitive and her best option.
Both people have to work fucking hard to maintain strong passionate loving healthy win-win on the same team relationship, feeding the mutual baby of love.
And it’s up to you to make sure she works fucking hard. If you are working fucking hard at it, and she won’t or can’t, you have to move on. For her sake and yours. That’s what I think. Nobody can win with the personality disordered, and if you are walking on eggshells, while at the same time properly handling your shit and her shit tests, it’s on her.
[…] Killyouregotowin said: […]
I recently thought to myself that just like there is conversational hook point, there is a sexual hook point. At some point, a girl realizes she likes talking to you and starts to work, invest, to keep things going. You find this through fractionation/push-pull. You push in to start things up, then you pull away and let her chase a bit. So when she chases you with questions and conversation then its on – she hooked.
Similarly, when she starts unbuckling your belt, reaching in your pants, when she announces “I’m wearing my ‘I want sex’ outfit!”… the sexual hook point has been reached.*** With some girls that might be minutes in. (With drunken cougars it may be the moment she sees you.) . With inexperienced girls it may take months for them to start to want that part of you, if you see them once a week.
I was wondering what the ‘relationship’ hook point would be. At some point she starts talking about rocking chairs on the porch or having children. Or at least talking around the subject. Under age 25 girls seem to talk about these things obliquely. One girl would talk about about how much she liked spending time with my niece. (My niece really loved her. They were a pair.) . It was her code for talking about us having a child. Over age 27 or so they may get very direct.
I think that if you want to guide the relationship… Noticing this hook point is important. Because you have to pull/vacuum/fractionate and let her expound all of the things that she wants/dreams/desires. And then you have to provide some guidelines for how she could make that happen. Without telling her exactly how to do it, you have to say that under SOME circumstance you, as a real guy, would have sex without birth control. You can’t tell her exactly what to do, because you don’t want to enable a sociopathic type to act out a role that fools you.* But you do have to set some performance goal for her to meet, and inspire her to beaver away at meeting it, and require some creativity and authenticity on her part to meet it.
If you breeze past this point and just keep giving her all the sex she wants, all the validation, all the dates, then you fail a huge #$%@ test. You HAVE to pull back and vacuum the moment she starts to suggest ‘relationship.’ You have to validate her desire – “That’s so sweet that you want happily ever after with me….. (let a few moments pass then cut off her response with:) What makes you relationship material? You’re great on sex, cooking… what else?” (This question will likely shock her and frighten her, so if she faces it and tries to answer then she will need some positive attention reward.) If you don’t clearly pull back and give her the floor to perform on, she won’t dance for you; she won’t chase, and you will get labeled beta. She will take your lack of EXPLICIT selectivity as thirst for ‘relationship’ and she will start the eject procedure.** So your selectivity needs to be explicit. She needs to see and understand that you have other options lined up, that you haven’t stopped meeting and maybe fucking other girls, and she needs to know that there are concrete standards and milestones she needs to reach going forward – if she wants to get more from you. And she needs to visualize that she could have success if she measures up; there has to be some light for her to aim at.
I suspect that this requires a guy have both the right behaviors AND the right words to frame them, because there is a lack of any common cultural framework for how this process should work in every instance through life. As far as relationships go in western culture, we’ve nearly regressed to ‘Quest for Fire’ levels. Having it happen on your terms needs words and ideas and guidance. She likely has no clue or reference experience for what’s coming.
***See comments on Nash’s ’Taking a girls virginity’ post: https://daysofgame.com/dates/tyo-taking-a-girls-virginity-1-tokyo/
*Women know intuitively how to do this for beta guys, and they can fool them mercilessly. See for example the guy who organized the 21 convention and married a hooker who convinced him she was er, not a hooker. I think I have only escaped this fate through luck, not sure.
**I have had this happen to me. The eject procedure can take many painful drama-filled months if she doesn’t have a better branch lined up to swing to. She will make things progressively more unpleasant until you dump her. And so on. I wonder if it is basically what would happen to Roosh over and over.
janka retired from game in 2008 and hasn’t hit on a girl since. the way so many guys still mention him is ridiculous its likely hes totally forgot about that phase of his life.
What is ridiculous about that, Sam? No one is claiming he is out talking to girls now. But the things he said, what he taught, his mindsets about women… are very interesting… perhaps in general… and certainly, as I see it, for men still getting after girls. He is in my top 10 guys I have ever studied. Very smart guy. He was a rare mix of high-end sophisticated and wolfish. Cool guy.
I am glad that Janka is happily married and is into his kid. He sounds very cool to me when he talks about it… and I think even then, he is a great example. he really got the player thing out of the way… he truly knows women… and he can move on, no regrets. Good for him. There I admire him, too.
There is a lot to be learned from this post and from the comments section as well.
“Vetting is looking for raw materials (…) and then we start building what we want to see in the world.”
This resonated with me. It’s powerful. Personal experience taught me that many girls will be what you make of them. The vetting would be picking an adequate girl to start working on (avoid high levels of drama/entitlement/attitude, past traumas, etc.) depending on your goals. Lately, I am directing my skills to multiple live-in women, as in a hard harem. I wonder if somebody else has tried this or better yet, is doing it successfully at the moment.
Thank you for honesty and your contribution to this interesting body of knowledge.
Thanks, man. It was not in my typical area of commentary, but IM really inspired me… and LONG TERM, this is an area where I know I need to grow. I was literally working on this on a FIRST DATE last night. “How it starts is how it goes.”
I think this is true EVERY SINGLE TIME at the level of setting boundaries. As for really influencing a woman’s potential, I think that is a much more nuanced conversation. I am out of my depth there.
Personally, I am very with you on this. As a player, I can fool around with girls that have some obvious issues. But longer term, it sounds deeply unwise to try to build on an obviously damaged foundation.
But… I’ll add this:
Pat Stedman is consistently vocal on this point of “healing” women. And it might be the same point I am echo’ing from IM above: Quality Women are made, not “born.” Maybe this is the same thing. Maybe you can start w/ a girl with “some issues,” and apply the same process and clean her up. Assume some of those issue were the direct results of the previous environment.
I’m not endorsing that, but I like Pat’s voice here on this topic. I really respect him, and I’d like to hear him say more on this.