Part I: Mystery’s Seven Hour Rule and LMR
In September, I closed a 20 year girl while on a trip to Japan. We’ll call her Miss Nervous. She was a “long lead” I had met in America two months earlier. All greater claims of my ego aside… fucking a girl 26 years younger than me, one that lives in another country, was a low-likelihood scenario. But over the course of another very long date (in a city where neither of us live)… it worked out well.
And it all started when an older man approached a cute girl in a shopping mall. Go #daygame. Along with the notch, my long date with her (our 2nd date) gave me some reference experiences around bringing a young, inexperienced girl deeper into sex. That is the kind of experience I want.
I’ll share the story of Miss Nervous in my next post, but to push this beyond a standard daygame lay report, I am going to tell it in the light of a claim Mystery has been pushing for years: “The Seven Hour Rule.”
First, we’ll take a good look at Mystery’s theory. And then (in a few days), we’ll use Mystery’s concept to examine the Last Minute Resistance I had with Miss Nervous in Japan.
Here we go:
While I was on that Japan trip in September, I ran into an excellent talk that Mystery gave to the Casanova Crew in 2012. I took a lot of notes.
I haven’t formally studied Mystery much, but as a proper legend in modern pickup he is hard to avoid. I own a copy of his book, but… I have never read Mystery Method.
“My influences were firstly and most importantly, the Mystery Method, the only study of game that really matters, in my opinion.”
— Jimmy Jambone, from Rivelino’s interview
For a guy that has never really been a fan of Mystery, my comments below are surprisingly consistent with Jambone’s quote. And after all my time as a student of Game… I am surprised to find myself suddenly into Mystery’s stuff.
While I could be a dick and highlight a bunch of totally stupid things Mystery has said over the years (I have several lame takes in my notes), for now I admit: In that Casanova Crew talk, Mystery was full of wisdom and great moments.
The quotes from Mystery I use here (and in the next post) come from that Casanova Crew talk.
Let’s get into the controversy:
Here is one of the most controversial points ever pressed by the famous pickup artist known as Mystery.
“According to Mystery, it takes roughly seven hours for a woman to be comfortably led from meet to sex. These seven hours can take place all in one night, or over several days: approaching and talking for an hour; speaking on the phone for an hour; meeting for drinks for two hours; talking on the phone for another hour; and then, on the next meeting, hanging out for two more hours before going to bed together.”
“Waiting seven hours or more is what Mystery calls solid game.”
— Neil Strauss, from The Game
So Mystery thinks you have to spend seven hours with the girl before you fuck her… or it’s not “solid game.” Is that true?
Mystery’s Seven Hour Rule has been talked about a lot. I have laughed at it. I have argued against it. If you take it completely literally, it’s easy to know it is not true. I think we’re all on the same page there.
But I have new respect for that concept, and here’s why:
As Players, we reject Mystery’s concept because we think the “seven hours” is a comment about the Player’s skill. We think he is talking about us.
It sounds like Mystery is saying, “it’s impossible to lay a girl in less than seven hours.” Or… that it’s “only luck” to do so. It sounds like Mystery is “admitting” that he can’t close girls that fast, so he is discounting the success of guys that actually can get there in less than seven hours… calling fast sex “fool’s mate.”
“Sleeping with her in less than seven hours is known as fool’s mate: You got lucky.”
— Neil Strauss (aka Style)
“You got lucky.” If you’re sensitive about your skill as a Player, that could almost sound insulting.
But what if that is all a misinterpretation. What if it’s not really about the Player at all? What if the “seven hours” are only about… her?
Let’s move deeper into the conflict:
“[T]he notion of ‘fool’s mate’ and the idea that it takes ‘seven hours’ to have sex with a women are both utterly bizarre. In fact, you can have sex with women much, much quicker. My personal best is under five minutes, and it was a regular club, not a sex party or in a swinger club.”
— Aaron Sleazy
Shooting holes in Mystery’s concept is easy to do…. but that isn’t my goal with this post. I include Aaron’s POV as an example of how the Seven Hour Rule is typically interpreted.
Back to Aaron:
He says he has closed a girl in five minutes. That is a wild claim, but I believe him. But notice how he is reading Mystery’s line as a comment about his own skill (as opposed to the experience of the girl). Aaron isn’t exactly “defensive”… but it’s something like that. Aaron takes the point at the level of his own ego… as opposed to a lesson in female psychology.
And I get that:
I have pulled a girl off the street, for a drink, and then back to my place for sex in under an hour. I could use that anecdote to fuck with Mystery’s claim. But if I think about it… I know for sure that “insta-pull” was more about her than my game. And THAT… is what Mystery means by “you got lucky.” The whole concept is about the girl… not about us, as Players.
It wasn’t that I didn’t show any skill that night (March 2018… I never wrote about her). I approached that girl, I knew what to do, I led her in a solid way… But fucking her that fast was about her… not really about a test of my game… and not at all a good example of “most women.” We are zeroing in on Mystery’s point.
We all know Players that have stories like mine or Aaron’s. And they are true. Some girls move fast. Seven hours is not a requirement. But…
What about most girls? What if Mystery is trying to set an expectation. And not only “just wait seven hours, bro.” But… trying to give you the “WHY” behind his infamous rule.
More on the “why” below.
Let’s look at this point from another angle…
Here is Krauser, scolding a student on this same topic:
“Middle of the afternoon. No alcohol. Getting your dick out within an hour of some girl just on her way home.”
“There are some girls you can fuck that quick. But those are the highlights. That’s not the normal amount of game.”
— Krauser
A curious student might ask Krauser: What is the “normal amount of game?” Could it be… seven hours? And… if seven hours is a reasonable estimate… could it be that a Player might lose girls by pushing for something faster than that?
You see where this is going? I assume both Mystery and Krauser are plenty capable of escalating quickly. And they have tons of experience. And yet, check this out…
Here are some comments from Krauser about his 2015 daygame stats:
“Near misses: 22”
— Krauser
Wow. In one year… Krauser “flipped the car” 22 times. That is an amazing thing to be able to say.
“Yes. With twenty-two different girls I had a girl hot, horny, up for it and yet just didn’t manage to get my dick into her.”
“The funny thing is it wasn’t due to me suddenly losing my ability to close, but actually the reverse. I was pulling girls so fast that they were getting to the hand-on-dick-in-sex-location stage much faster than they could handle.”
— Krauser
Great comment… and very interesting to me. This whole conversation is already a step beyond typical Game-talk. We’re getting past the “just fuck her, bro” view of Game.
Back to Krauser… note: “Faster than she could handle.”
Krauser isn’t talking about himself here or “what is possible.” He is not even talking about one girl… he is talking about 22 girls in one year that “weren’t quite ready.” Krauser is pointing to the comfort level in those girls. He is talking about female psychology.
In the community we go on and on about technique and the Player’s skill, but all that is never more than half of the equation. With all his skill and experience, Krauser’s role in those near misses was mostly that… he went too fast.
Going too fast is fixable. And the reason to “fix” that is not that “seven hours” is any kind of magic formula… it’s that creating a pace that a girl can handle (that is right for her psychology and comfort level) is the essence of “solid game.”
That is Mystery’s point. And as that sunk into me this last summer… I had new respect for the man and that concept.
Here is more from Mystery on “solid game” and “The Seven Hour Rule:”
“Seven hours is average. Four hours is a little short. Four hours is one night, though.”
— Mystery
In the context of expectations for sex… Mystery’s “Rule” is a good practical guideline around female psychology and LMR. Don’t worry about your ego… just soak it up.
But we can compare Mystery’s guideline to advice from guys that assume sex must happen on the first date. There is a lot of counter-argument here in the space of men interested in Game.
Here are some examples of what we hear from guys that are hyper-focused on “fast sex:”
1.) “Don’t let her make you wait for sex, move on.”
— TheRedIntrovert
Red doesn’t like to wait.
2.) “If she makes you wait for sex… she’s actively assessing her other options. You’re not her priority.”
— TheRedIntrovert
He thinks any waiting is a sign of disrespect.
3.) “It’s 1am. Like clockwork, another girl comes up and opens him. All I see is literally about 3 minutes of back and forth. He takes her hand and just walks straight out of the club.”
— TheRedIntrovert
This post is mostly about female psychology, but notice the way Red interprets female behavior as being about the guy. It is remarkable how similar Red’s attitude is to Aaron’s response to Mystery. In both cases, the root of their commentary is ego. To these kinds of men, the concept of waiting at all has nothing to do with the girl’s comfort… it’s interpreted as a slight to the Player.
To address TheRedIntroverts comments:
She is not always “making you wait” (= your ego), she is often just not ready herself (= her psychology). Making you wait isn’t necessarily about how much she wants to fuck other guys (= your insecurity), she just needs more time (= her comfort). If she wants to fuck you based on three minutes of conversation, and actually follows through with it in the next few minutes… maybe you have radically good game (= bragging rights), or maybe she was looking for a dick to fall on and you happen to be it (= all about her, not so much about you).
“Five minute pulls” (like Aaron mentioned) are often the goal for men like Red (and lots of other guys chattering about Game). For a certain combination of guy/girl/context, maybe fast sex is the only/best solution. (Maybe she is leaving town?) But for most guys, most girls, most instances… maniacally gunning for sex is rather ridiculous… and will often actually reduce notches, and future sex, as you scare girls away by trying to fuck her the first time you get her alone.
Back to Mystery… this quote also helps to address the kind of expectations Red is pushing:
“They hit on her on the open and try to pull her to the bathroom and she says, ‘no.’ If your girlfriend of two years won’t have sex with you in a seedy bathroom, don’t expect a quality girl you just met to do that. ‘Yeah, she said ‘no,’ man.’ You just fucked that up. You could have played solid game.”
— Mystery
Sometimes Red is right… some guys have girls walking up to them at clubs, ready to go home in under three minutes… but it is a losing strategy to aim for that unless the context calls for it.
Too fast, too flashy, too self-centered.
I like where Mystery is taking us. For all of the ridiculous “Purple Hat” bullshit of Mystery’s legacy, he has some great things to say in that talk:
“You’re not after the girl once. You’re building enough comfort to be able to have sex with her three times… and hopefully 50 times… and on you go. And you enjoy each other.”
— Mystery
I like that. Fucking her once… could have been luck (or her needs). Fucking her a second time… is never an “accident.” Ongoing sex with a girl (what I call “recurring revenue”) is a sign of very solid game indeed (I think of Magnum, in particular, when I say that).
Recurring revenue (retaining girls in an ongoing relationship of some kind) leads to lots of sex. If “lots of sex” is what you’re after, Mystery’s concept of “solid game” might help your results.
How many of those 22 girls that Krauser lost in 2015 might he have closed if he was looking at something closer to “seven hours.” How many of them might have turned into ongoing action? Even at the most simple-minded level of “Locker Room” Game… a little patience has it’s rewards.
“I know how to kiss a girl. I know how to pull the fucking trigger. Really. I just also know how to, like, win… play solid game. I am not getting the girl to try to impress you… with ‘speed’.”
— Mystery
When he says all that in the video, he rolls his eyes in frustration. I bet he has had this argument so many times.
“What if slowing the game down buys you enough comfort for her finally to get naked with you and feel comfortable about that? Some guys, they go too soon. What I’d rather do is play a nice solid game.”
— Mystery
Nice “solid game.”
And there it is… we have arrived at the meaning behind Mystery’s claim. Slow it down, replace speed with some attention to where the girl is at in the seduction, and you’re likely to end up with more action.
Here he gets into my favorite topic in Game right now… LMR:
“Last Minute Resistance. One way of combating that last minute resistance is ‘seven hours.’ If you’re two hours in and you’re going for the bra, and she’s like, ‘no, no, no.’ You can get rid of the whole ‘man hands’ thing, in LMR, if you’ve got seven hours. You accumulate time. You spend the time. You may accumulate that over several days with her.”
— Mystery
Let’s assume this is for men that have the fundamentals down. Good Game is more than just “seven hours,” obviously. It’s all the leading and escalating and push-pull and charm and seduction and… seven hours to make it real for the girl (and maybe even for yourself).
I like it.
I thank Mystery for being so articulate (and patient) that I had time to finally understand what he was saying.
“Part of this whole pickup thing is epitomizing same-day-lays… fetishizing quickness, speed.”
— Jason Savage, from Seduction is a Gift
I love that talk from Jason Savage… and he is echoing Mystery’s point. Jason is right.
“Fetishizing speed” is likely part of what Krauser was doing that year when he burned all those seductions by moving too fast. Krauser was testing the boundaries of what was possible for him at the time… he was testing his skill, and… testing the boundaries of women (which is more interesting to me). If you trust Krauser (and I do)… he is showing you what “too much” looks like.
The “skill” of the Player isn’t always in finding a way to make it happen faster. There is a lot of potential for a Player to test his skill by pacing her until she is ready to open up… to “bloom” for you. Not too slow (which is a different kind of risk), but also… not too fast.
Too often we get overly excited about what Krauser calls the “highlight reel.” Those stories sound good. I like my own fast-sex stories. I get it.
But is that “solid game?” If we knew any better… is “speed” what we would do? All the time? Probably not. If you’re any good with women… you probably know this. I am still proving it out… one girl at a time.
A lot of my wins have come after the third, fourth, or even fifth date. And a lot of those “slow sex” dates… led to ongoing sex with those girls. Sex again and again and again… because I wasn’t so insistent on “right now.”
Personally, it doesn’t really help me much to know a guy’s “best story.” His “fastest pull.” Extraordinary lives begin with extraordinary expectations… that is true… but this isn’t always about us and our “skill” and our “frame.”
A seduction is a partnership, of a sort. When we skip over the details of the girl’s psychology… and assume the goal is to “fuck her within five minutes” of meeting her (or even on the first date)… we are missing a lot of the story. And while I know that kind of success is possible, hammering on those assumptions is “ego” stuff. We’ll lose (a lot of) girls that way. Krauser did… and I have too.
So in my next post, I’ll lay out a specific example… the story of how I fucked 20 year old Miss Nervous. Would it surprise you to know I needed something like “seven hours?” At this point… it shouldn’t.
Seven hours… good guideline. With Miss Nervous, it took more time than that, actually. More next time.
Viva Daygame.
I just counted and I had 13 near misses for 2019 – many likely due to trying to escalate too fast in person.
We were enjoying our time together and then I just sort of assumed physical escalation. Really part of that was an insecurity on my part “if I don’t escalate faster, she’s going to get distracted by the other sights and sounds and shiny objects and men of New York” which may or may not be real.
Some of it was almost certainly due to moving faster, like using Magnum’s date model, where I don’t kiss her until she’s in my apartment, but even that is a little too fast for most of these girls. It’s like I forgot how to do comfort – I’ve been too focused on attraction and escalation and comfort gets thrown out the window.
The way I think about it now is that I need to get her comfortable with the speed of seduction. After you drive 100 (xPH) for a while, she gets used to it and it’s not scary. Pump the brakes to show you have them and they work to build trust and comfort, cruise at the same speed for a while to build comfort, before accelerating some more.
I feel like I was doing this more in late 2018. Not nearly as much this year… in large part as I have much less to prove to myself.
This is a big part of why I published this piece: We hear a LOT of “faster! faster!” – and not enough “field reporting” on what that actually does to our stats.
This is related to BEGINNERS vs INT/ADV:
— Beginners are “too nice” and fail to escalate
— We encourage beginners to “step up”
— Then… Intermediates “test” what is “too fast”
— Advanced guys too… “I wonder if I can go faster, now that I am better.”
The Krauser story is amazing. And we know from his memoirs that he was actually “testing the boundaries” that year. And… I think it’s safe to say he went too far… at least some of the time.
— It’s not “fast” or “slow”
— It’s “what is right for the girl I am with”
So, when guys push “one size fits all” advice, to “never wait for sex,” we are uncalibrated much more often.
Exactly right.
Great post as always Nash and I like the detailed breakdown of the various points players have made on this much debated topic over the years.
I think the 7 hour rule of thumb ties in with another good quote of Mystery’s, “The Game is played in comfort” (out of his three phased attraction -> comfort -> escalation model).
This is why I have found that the two date model tends to be more effective than the one date model. It gives you a chance to build comfort, which ups your odds (meets more of her needs) compared to the one date model, even compared to when you do a long one date model with 3 venues before the pull.
I also think if you’ve done your job in comfort you won’t encounter much, if any, LMR. LMR to me is a sign you haven’t built enough comfort yet to pull the trigger.
One final thought on the two date (or three date) model, is that the “vacuum” between dates helps her build comfort with you in her head, if you left enough of an impression to have her thinking about you even while you’re not contacting her between dates. If your value and game were there she’ll be thinking of you between the dates, and I’ve found that can often lead to less hours spent over the course of the dates before closing her. I find that her thinking of you on her own time counts towards Mystery’s 7 hour rule of thumb, which means the more she things of you between dates likely the less time you need before the close.
Looking forward to example in the next post. Great stuff
That is not bad…
But it is easier for me to say “The Game is female psych”. That is my emphasis. Because “comfort” is always a factor, but a lot of girls will never even think of it… it’s just “attracted or not” and then “bored or not.”
If I keep an eye on her psych… stay flexible within the range of things that I am interested in… I can adjust to her. More focus on comfort… or on excitement… depending on what she needs.
The point is… PAYING ATTN to where she is at… not “hard rules” and “one size fits all.”
This comment interests me… as I am increasingly convinced that LMR is completely normal for the vast majority of guys that are 1. bringing lots of girls into their lives and 2. not waiting for her to make the first move.
So for me… that means I have a lot of girls at different levels of “comfort”/etc, so I see LMR all the time (in part, as I try to move reasonably fast).
But I believe you that you don’t see it much. We might not be defining LMR the same way…
As usually… I don’t think you are a “typical guy.” I have called you a “Super Hero,” in terms of your look and your vibe (Magnum and I know each other IRL). So… it’s very possible you get different reactions.
— I would caution guys to realize they are not you (unless they are, but I know most guys are not)
ALSO: You and I have debated “waiting for sex.” And I know you think “3 dates max.” That you’ll bump a girl that isn’t ready at least that fast. So maybe what would be LMR for me… is “next” to you. Some of the difference is in the definition and ground rules.
So, again… interesting. You claim low LMR, but won’t wait for sex. I claim regular LMR (which I love, BTW… it’s a great part of game), and I will wait for sex, will work with LMR… and close a lot of girls that started with LMR and relax into sex.
For the record:
TYPES of COMFORT:
1.) Superficial
“Comfortable having and interaction, didn’t creep them out…”
2.) Rapport
“Comfort, getting to know someone, filling in the empty canvas, opening up, sharing…”
3.) Sexual
“Comfort in a sexual situation.” When you pull a girl in, if she pulls in smooth, she’s comfortable…
— Jon Sinn
Excellent post.
TBH, I pull too fast, and I’ll admit–it comes from insecurity in some ways. But I’m like Maverick in Top Gun: if I have the shot, I take it. And to be fair, because my game is strong, a lot of times it works…
But a lot of times it doesn’t.
And the question is, can I learn to restrain myself and “run solid game?” Can I wait the 7 hours? The answer, ultimately for me to progress as a player–as a member of the secret society–is to become subtle. I often quote Todd V’s line: good game doesn’t look like game. The girl (because you are correct, the 7 hours is about her, not skill) doesn’t feel like she’s being “pulled.” She feels attracted. The player leads and she finds that she wants to follow.
I also concur on your point of quick pulls. I’ve had a lot in the last year and a half, including some SDL’s. And yes, it was good game on my part–I did what I needed to do, as you did in the one you mentioned above. But they were ready. It wasn’t about my skill, it was the fact that for whatever reason, she didn’t need 7 hours.
And guess what? I didn’t retain most of them. I moved too fast, and yeah, they were down at the time, but they regretted it later because the game wasn’t solid.
Excited to see how this plays with the 20 yo.
I don’t disagree with your point but the counterpoint to is what Janka says.
Which is that, the more time you spend with a girl before fucking the more chance you have of fucking it up and doing something that turns her away.
Someone experienced such as yourself, probably doesn’t have that issue. But for greener players, well, that’s a real risk.
You’re saying something totally real.
A LOT of what tanks the seduction has to do with mistakes by the guy. True. That is a big topic, actually… but it’s true, even with just that.
But this isn’t about “trying to draw it out.” We’re not intentionally making it longer (that can lose girls too). It’s about pacing her (being sensitive to where she is at)… and not rushing it.
I have a lot to learn, man. And if you know my writing/style… you’ll know I am really into “LMR” as a stage in seduction. I am learning a lot there, right now.
And one of my conclusions about guys that have no patience at that stage, is:
— They don’t know how to fill the time.
I think it’s a bit of subtle point.
If a man doesn’t know how to feel the time, he’ll rush it (“nuke it” as some guy said online this week), and/or give up. The “never wait for sex” guys are often guys that don’t know what to do when they wait… so they bail and call it “standards.” It’s laziness and inexperience.
And this comes back to a larger theme about TENSION. Good men can hold tension. That is very true.
Now…
If she needs some time. And that means there is precious space to fill… and some sexual tension there…
This is something a lot of guys probably could improve on. Not by rushing it… but by learning to manage the girl, the time, and THEMSELVES as the tension builds and the opportunities unfold.
None of it is easy. But you LOSE GIRLS AND CHANCE TO LEARN, when you “nuke it.” To know when it’s time to pace her, and manage the tension… you have to know such times exist.
More and more, I’ve been telling myself that I must learn to calibrate properly. Whether that be feeling the moment or analyzing her subtle signals. I know it’s the right path. The challenge is in discerning what she’s conveying. As many techniques as there are out there to maintain frame and escalate, not much is written about how to read her signals. Learning to that means I don’t have to memorize lines and gambits…and I certainly don’t want to. But I think I know why reading women is not written in the books: it’s incredible difficult to put it down on paper. It takes experience, and there’s no one size fits all. In Krauser’s books, he talks about red/amber/green lights. This is perhaps the closest I’ve seen written on reading a girl. But even then, these lights are given off with different tones by different women. One girl might giggle because she’s nervous and wants you to step back, another may be telling you it’s on. My reads are certainly getting better, and it appears one can’t substitute knowledge for experience on this front.
Love this break down. Coming from Nice Guy background, it’s always been natural for me to think about things from the girl’s perspective. But since I started my journey in game, I kind of lost that. I’m so focused on me…what could I have done, how should I have acted differently? Ironically, whenever I ask myself those questions, I always end up going back to trying to figure out what the girl was thinking. That’s too naive, though, I need to learn how to FEEL what the girl is FEELING, then adjust accordingly. In a broad sense, this is my goal for 2020…to better unify my feelings with hers then give her what she wants.
Funny thing about me…I have no interest in fast sex. Don’t care for it. Give me a solid regular from a sweet, affectionate girl in place of 5 SDL’s. Perhaps I’m speaking naively–never had an SDL–but it’s also not what I’m looking for. Your emphasis on recurring revenue really resonates with me towards what I target.
This ^ is exactly how I feel. Well said.
I talk so much shit about the “redpill community” in large part as they are rarely interested in these aspects… and I am trying to be of service by pointing to OTHER SOURCES where you can get at least as much as the “redpill newbies” have to offer… from men much wiser than that… AND… real notes on FEMALE PSYCH.
Some MEN THAT GO INTO DETAIL ON FEMALE PSYCH:
— Anything by FRANCO… unbelievably deep guy, amazing resource
— The BLACK PHILIP SHOW and other youtube stuff by PATRICE O’NEIL… top shelf
— LANCE MASON of PICKUP 101… if you can find his video products
— I’ll add THE RED QUEST is up there for me… that guy is deeply talented
These are all game/seduction related. The “hippies” also do an incredible job, but only for guys that are ready to move beyond “locker room talk.”
— DAVID DEIDA when he talks about “the feminine” will teach you a lot
— ALEX ALLMAN is impressing me recently (talking about sex/relationships)
I am doing this off the top of my head… and skipping so many great sources… (JANKA would be another).
All of these guys wipe the floor with the “redpill” level thinking. All the best that redpill has to offer… years/years before “redpill” was a thing. And so much more than those 99% of those guys will ever begin to realize.
[…] I would have given up after 3rd date.” Mr. V replied with the test I mentioned above. Mystery’s 7 hour rule is an average. Some girls can be had in less time, some girls need more time. […]
I know I’m late to the party, but I couldn’t resist.
Throughout the post, you combat the frame of “close fast”… only to replace it with the frame of “close successfully” or possibly “close for maximum yield”. From your other posts, I know your perspective to be deeper than that.
You should take the contextually proper amount of time because that is correct. Development should not be rushed. Even if it can be rushed, you will be poorer for it.
Great game is a dance. It is a piece of art. It is a story. A great symphony is not composed of a thousand trumpets blasting for 2.3 seconds. You can never get more energy out than you put in.
The goal isn’t to win. The goal is to play a beautiful game.
Great lines here ^, Jake.
This ^ is really important. And you’re phrasing something very well that I have tried to say in other ways.
If you want to say more here… I am listening.
For my part, I can say that “close for maximum yield” vs “close fast” is the way I might recognize that YES, a seduction is a “work of art,” but many men are living closer to “starvation” (of sex and affection and intimacy)… so “art” is a higher goal that is hard to appreciate.
First, I think a man moves from “nothing to something.” Then from “something to depth.”
If those men would like to spend more time with women, they could de-emphasize the “ego goal” of “close fast” (which is not effective) and consider other ways to view “the dance.” As they do that, they might find “more results,” yes. And that could be good. And then, also, to see more in those relationships as their basic needs are satisfied, and they can move up “Maslow’s Hierarchy” to higher goals and deeper relationships.
>>You can never get more energy out than you put in
I’m not sure I’d phrase it this way… some girls are pretty low-energy, and low-reactivity. They show up on the date… they give a bunch of “yellow lights” (to use Krauser’s term), but they mostly go along with what I propose. I’m trying to remember if I’ve written up any stories about those kinds of girls but I can’t think of one at the moment.
I’d put it more like this, “Is she uninterested? Is she a black hole? Do you put energy in, and it goes nowhere?” Then it’s probably time to move on. I think it’s useful to approximately match the girl’s energy, or to be one state higher or lower… if she’s a low-affect girl, just being a little higher affect than her can be good. She needs someone with a higher energy level. If she’s a super bubbly, high energy girl, sometimes it can be useful to anchor her with slightly lower energy.
I don’t actually know what I’m talking myself into here, apart from “it depends.”
This “Great game is a dance. It is a piece of art. It is a story. A great symphony is not composed of a thousand trumpets blasting for 2.3 seconds” is really saying game isn’t totally algorithmic, and if you have too algorithmic a mindset, you’re going to miss things. Look, I’ve fucked chicks while barely exchanging a word with them, mostly at private sex parties… and I’ve also gotten some after many years of knowing them, https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/fr-slept-with-a-girl-i-first-met-eight-years-ago/. So I’ve been on both extremes of the speed thing. Depends on the girl, the guy, the circumstances, etc. I’ve been in situations, especially with women who are in relationships already, or who are entangled with me socially somehow, where it’s been best to go very slowly, maybe more slowly than I’d like to… but the circumstances dictate that kind of approach.
My working theory until pretty recently is that I should always at least try to fuck the girl on the first date, and if she says no she’ll still respect me for trying. Now I’m not so sure, after reading about Magnum, Blackdragon, and other two-date models, and reading days of game for a while.
I still want to win but mostly I want both of us (the girl and me) to win, and what that means w/ different girls will be different.
Also, I sometimes don’t know where the girl is until I find out. “Let’s go back to my place for a drink.” “Should I get us somewhere to go?” “Look at me. [then I kiss her]” Like with poker or any decision-making under uncertainty, I often don’t know until I know. If it works, then I know I picked right. If it doesn’t work, I often don’t and can’t really know whether I picked wrong.
Start with the game, stay for the epistemology. Kind of like how a lot of guys start with the game wanting to get laid and wind up having to figure out who they are and how to live their lives.