Paul Janka, Escalation, and LMR | Free Ebook Download
This post has sort of spiraled out of control, but has been fun to write. I’m going to showcase some ideas from Paul Janka here. I’ll present him as one case study in the wide range of approaches we might learn from as men of game. He can be a controversial figure, and I like that about him. He is also a smart and deep guy, one of the most important influences on my understanding of game. And a man I respect, very much.
Before we get into the post, here is a little back story on Paul.
Paul Janka is a daygamer. He’s famous for picking up women off the street in NYC. In fact, back in 2005 he wrote an ebook called “Getting Laid in NYC: Technology for the Single Man.”
You can get a free copy of Janka’s original ebook ^ here.
Paul runs a different version of daygame vs the London guys, but he’s doing the same thing we all love to do… cold approaching girls on the sidewalk.
Here is a sample:
“Prior to recognizing how effective a system for getting laid could be, I would take my opportunities where they presented themselves: poolside at a wedding, on the Chinatown bus between Boston and NYC, in a cab, in Central Park.”
— Paul Janka, “Getting Laid in NYC”
Notice he makes no mention of “daygame.” When he was on Dr Phil in 2008 he was calling it “street game,” but at that stage of his career, this was just “meeting women,” his means of “getting laid.”
“I’d say that 90% of my game takes place on the street because I walk a lot (also keeps me thin and fit, a must for the hustler) and that’s where the girls are.”
“Here, in NYC, they flow by like sardines in the ocean.”
There are some lines from Paul’s original work.
He’s right. I had a chance to do some NYC daygame last October. There are so many girls there, it was a type of “pussy paradise” for me, beginning with that sheer volume of opportunities. That’s where Janka cut his teeth.
“In New York, we used to walk down 9th Avenue, like on a Saturday afternoon… And we’d just cruise down for like three or four hours and we’d collect numbers. Which was the first stage, obviously, of the whole process: texting them, getting them back to the place, etc.”
This ^ quote is from an interview he did in 2012 with the Street Attraction guys from London, seven+ years after he wrote his original “pamphlet.” That interview is also a very good look at Paul’s thinking. I’ve sampled a lot of quotes from that talk for this post.
Back to his first book:
“I have never done online dating. I can’t recall the last time I was set-up. And after a few retarded episodes with blind dates, I refuse to do that. All my pulls are in the flesh, and I’m aggressive. I believe it’s a lot about chemistry, and a privilege of males is that you get to choose. If you see something you like, go after it.”
Ummm, yeah. I like that. Go daygame. And as Janka owns that “you get to choose” mindset, he shows he’s among the rare men that see the sexual marketplace in that way. I want to learn from guys like that.
Also note that Paul calls himself aggressive. That will come up a lot in this post.
I see Paul as occupying one end of the spectrum. He is unapologetically trying to get laid. Fiercely so. And while he might go to extremes that are beyond my style, his mindset has shaken me up, and opened my mind to a perspective on game that few men can teach. He is very smart. Very articulate. And upscale. And the combination is fascinating.
One lazy common “criticism” of Paul’s game is that he is good looking. He’s tall, Harvard educated, and looks to have come from money. “That’s not game,” some guys have said.
A nice thing about this post, is it’s focused on his ideas, not his looks. Below we’ll look at some of his concepts. I’ll give you a tour of Janka’s head, and you can decide for yourself if he has anything to offer this Tribe of Men in terms of insight and innovation.
I’m quite sure he does.
Before we dive into it, I should say that in addition to his ebook, and the interview, I draw heavily from a talk he did at the Morten Hake Summit (also circa 2012), titled, “Do You Know Your Role?” It’s an excellent talk, and one I have listened to over and over… including last August while I was on a long drive. And I was once again shocked at the unique perspective and relevance of Janka’s mind. As I gain experience, more and more of what he talks about makes sense to me.
I don’t know how you can find a copy of that Morten Hake talk for yourself, but that is actually where I started with this post… I’ve been meaning to write more about him. And as I wait out my head-cold here in Tokyo… I personally transcribed a lot of the best lines from that presentation to share with you here. You’re welcome. I’ll use even more from that talk in future posts.
And the last bit of the setup for this piece is that it was inspired by something my friend Rivelino posted on the Twitterwebs:
“What no man should be doing is pushing past a girl’s resistance point as a strategy for getting laid. When in doubt, ‘Come here’ and let her come to you is better than ‘Here I go, reject me if you don’t want it’ move.”
-Yohami
— Rivelino (@alpharivelino) January 7, 2018
When I saw that quote, I felt a sting of familiarity. Not only because I have ridden that line myself, but also because I remembered when I heard Yohami say it.
Janka might contextualize Yohami’s words as being about LAST MINUTE RESISTANCE (LMR), a concept most of us know relatively well. In this post, we’ll take a look at the kind of moment Yohami is talking about above. And we’ll see how Janka sees it.
This is gnarly topic, and this has been an edgy post to write, but this is exactly the place for this kind of discussion. And we’re the men to have it.
“It’s good to talk about this stuff, actually…”
— Janka
Yes, it is. Every player I know brushes up against LMR at one point or another. It’s in those touch-and-go moments when we are working to close the deal.
“Last Minute Resistance… This is the single-most nerve-wracking moment in the seduction of a girl so expect her to act a little out of character even if she wants to have sex with you.”
— From Daygame Infinite, Krauser’s advanced daygame textbook
Yep, we all know LMR.
I was there myself less than two weeks ago with the Korean girl in my bed on New Years Day. And to be honest, I am still conflicted about what went down. Did I push too hard? Did I not push enough? She kept trying to put her panties back on. In some ways I felt a little like a bastard after she left my place. And at the same time, I feel like I might have let her down. Maybe it was up to me to fuck that girl, and it was my lack of nerve that couldn’t get it done? Maybe I went too far? I don’t know.
That kind of ambiguity is what this post is all about. We’ll let Janka take us through it. Let’s dive in.
…………………………………..
Here is some Janka material I used to respond to Riv’s Tweet:
“It’s cat and mouse. She has a comfort band… push up against that. We’re the men, right? Guys have been pussified.”
Here we are starting to get a hint at Janka’s potential to be controversial.
“You should know what the law is, and if you’re horny, push up against the law. Don’t rape the girl and don’t go crazy. A lot of guys don’t take the shot. And the guys that do take the shot are the guys that sleep with all the attractive women. Women will take a lot more pushing and lot more bold behavior than probably most of the men in this room realize. If you push that, that’s what turns a girl on. We’re animals. This audience could benefit from being a little more assertive.”
— Janka
That ^ is edgy. That is the line I heard in August when I listened to his talk on my drive that made my eyes pop open. It caught my attention. And that kind of thinking puts Janka beyond a lot of guys in the community. And he is consistently like this.
Is that too much? I mean, he’s right. There is the law, and we can use that as a boundary. And he’s also correct about what it takes to have more than your share of sex with attractive women… you have to “take the shot.”
How far do you take that line of thinking? And is that the question we should be asking? Yohami might steer us in another direction altogether…
And yet there is also a very real “danger” of being so overprotective of the girl’s “virtue” that we rob both the girl and ourselves of a good deal — “snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory” (as a friend of mine likes to say).
“Oh, another nice guy.” “Fine… but boring.” “Safe… but unsatisfying.” And maybe that was your one and only shot. Maybe you missed your chance… not because she is leaving town, but because she’s not interested in you anymore after that. She knows plenty of nice guys. “Respectful guys.” Maybe you never see her again.
This is a proper dilemma… and both horns represent a chance to make a type of error. “Too much”… or “not enough.”
“Women respond to bold… why do 5% of the guys fuck 95% of the women… because the guys that put their hand up their crotch in a full, crowded bar, while she’s talking to her best friend, and she pushes into it, and it turns her on, that’s the guy she wants to fuck, not the guy that’s waffling around. When you’re bold, you signal something to a woman.”
Janka isn’t talking about the bedroom here, but he is making the same point.
“…he desires her. No! He is bad news! She can’t resist and is swept off her feet on a tidal wave of breath-taking excitement.”
— Also from Krauser’s new daygame book
What does it mean to “sweep her off her feet?” That’s not the same as “jumping into our arms,” is it?
^ These are different things.
I cited Janka as “counterpoint” to the Yohami’s quote from Riv’s tweet. And I’ll take this moment to say I think Yohami is pointing to being a kind of “attractive” that may be far superior to the kind of game that Paul is representing in those quotes. Yohami wants us to be super solid, to be the “masculine magnet” that draws girls to you… so there is no LMR. That is ideal.
I like this… and the true “come here” line, where you actual hold still and make her come to you… is a standard I judge myself by. And I’m not there yet.
— Nash (@DaysOfGame_com) January 7, 2018
It’s true. Another bow to Yohami for his leadership in this community. I think he is right. And he is an incredibly rare voice.
“If you stop being willing to push against a resisting girl (which means acting before time, therefore making her push the breaks and take control), and instead tease and then double down when she’s aroused (which means she never pushes the breaks, and you have control) you’ll likely stop experiencing this stuff.”
— Yohami
My game is not that bad, but I need to read that again and again. This ^ is where I want to be. I’m working on it. That is A+ game. I want that kind of game. That is Top Guy.
But a lot of game, real game, worthy game… is played in less ideal territory.
I want to acknowledge the place where most of us are at, something less than Yohami’s level of skill (and insight). I want to get into the trenches of the experiences most of us have with girls. Girls that might fuck us, but don’t exactly clamor after us. Girls that say, “no, no, no,” over and over (I have seen that many, many times), often on their way to true and juicy “yes” moments later (I have seen that as well).
How do you know when “no” means “no?” Or when “no” means “maybe… but not tonight.” Or when it means “maybe, but it depends on what you do next” (this is super common). Or when “no” means “yes,” but only for guys that get it. This is complicated. How do you know the difference? How do you get expertise here while staying on the side of giving yourself and the girl a good experience?
“I always knew what the law was. I wouldn’t cross the line but I’d come up pretty damn close to it. There were a lot of mattress battles… that LMR… wear her down to the point I fucked her.”
Another version of Janka’s approach and another incredible quote. Some of us might talk like that, at least some of the time. And even more of us have had similar experiences.
“I got her into the apartment, got us a drink and started kissing her. She put up some LMR for an hour or so.”
— Roy Walker
Roy knows what LRM looks like. LMR, yes… but the sex happens. Guy’s with real-world experience know that is not weird at all. We’re not talking about resistance every time… we’re talking about resistance to the FIRST TIME. Which is as symbolic as it is carnal.
I had one girl in Tokyo last year that gave me strong LMR. I did not have sex with her and she left mad. I had another girl, very strong LMR on two different occasions. I didn’t have sex with her either, but she loves me. We talked all year while I was back at home. She pinged me on this trip, as soon as I arrived. And Miss Tease said “no” the whole time, as I wrestled her clothes off. We fucked. She praised me over and over afterwards, saying she loved that I was “rough.”
There are a lot of mixed signals. Between girls, but often from the same girl. And while there are some clear patterns overall, each specific combination of man, woman and circumstances is different. This is the reality of the dance.
In one of the quotes above, Janka makes a reference to “mattress battles.” I would expect Yohami to reject that concept. I think he would see this as “tussle.” And the behavior of Bottom Guy. The whole frame is a “fight” and not “seduction.”
“…she got you to reverse back to a frame where she’s not crazy about you, a frame where you work your ass up to her, climbing uphill. This Tussle frame.”
— Yohami
I think that’s a fair POV. Yohami is no pussy, he’s an aggressive guy too, and very much about sex. And I think when he steers us away from “the tussle” he is doing us a service. Pointing to a more “mature” game. Not “mature” as in neutered and compromised… or boring and conservative… but “mature” as in better. Where you get laid even more often, the sex is hotter, and everyone involved has a better time.
But if you read between the lines there, Yohami’s expectation is that she is “crazy about you.” That she should be coming to you, like a fan to a rockstar. “Bieber Game.”
But it’s not always that ideal. Likely because most of us don’t have the value (or the game) of a guy like Yohami. And other times perhaps because the girl has a more complicated relationship to sex than throwing herself at you. She is not going to simply purr when you put the moves on her. What looks to us like LMR is sometimes part of the seduction for girls like that. Maybe she “needs” a little bit of LMR. That is a normal part of “being taken” for her, and if you avoid those moments that is “rejection” or “boring” to her.
Complicated.
The Asian girls I sleep with tell me “no” almost every time. Not Miss Thick, but the Tokyo Queen (my former live-in girlfriend of over a year), would tell me “no-no!!!” when I would fuck her, almost every time… and I fucked her for two years. And she would even mock me sometimes, after sex, for not pushing hard enough. She did that when I backed off of fucking her in the ass the first time. She mocked me because I took her “no” seriously… even though her “no” was serious… she doesn’t like it in the ass at all… but she would lose respect for me when I cared about her feelings. That is a true story. Sometimes girls are like that. How do we interpret that?
When we back off… sometimes, it doesn’t feel like “respect” or “decency” to the girl. It’s the opposite. She specifically loses respect for you. Shit tests don’t stop at the door to the bedroom.
“When a woman can manipulate a man, it’s game up.”
— From one of the guys in that Street Attraction talk
He is saying that when she knows “you couldn’t get it done,” that’s who you are to her… another guy that couldn’t get it done. Contrast being in that category to being one of the guys that can “sweep her off her feet.” No comparison. Different leagues. I’ve been both.
Back to Janka:
“The girl will pace you. I would say, push for it.”
“A guy constantly presses. There’s a legal system, there’s a law. You can’t do certain things beyond it. And she’ll leave. What I’m saying is, you can press, but she can pace it. She can say, ‘yes, I’m interested, but not right now.’ Often beautiful girls are very good at pacing. They’ll pace you. They’ll let you push, but they’ll say ‘I need more time, I need more time.'”
I like this. This sounds real, like a more “reasonable” version of what Janka is saying earlier. “What I’m saying is, you can press, but she can pace it.” That is getting close to a perfect crystallization of the “dance.” This is exactly what happened with me and Chinese Fashion girl in New York (I did not fuck that girl, but I pushed it). I really like that bit as an accurate reflection of the reality of trying to fuck a girl for the first time.
“Women respond to guys that fuck ’em. I hate to tell you that.”
He is correct. Again.
“You’d be surprised… scale up what you feel comfortable, like 200%. They can handle themselves. A hot girl has been put in so many positions, where guys are assertive, she knows exactly how to step away, to deflect, verbally, physically, I wouldn’t worry about it.”
This ^ line reminds me of the epiphany I had when I wrote about Sundance’s lay with Math Girl.
She’s was 20. A conservative Chinese girl. She is a math major at a serious university. She plays classical piano. Sundance didn’t know it, but I had also picked her up via daygame, and got her out.
When she and I had our date, she told me she had dated some other guy that was 35 and very smooth (he was her first fuck). Other stories made it clear to me he was a player. In completely unrelated circumstances, Sundance picked her up, escalated hard on the first date and fucked her. She made a point to tell me she was the “relationship type,” but “relationship girl” had one night stand with Sundance.
That girl looks young and innocent, but she is not naïve. She has met, and dealt with dangerous men before. There was the older guy that took her v-card. Then dangerous me (and I’m even older than him). And if my wing and I both picked her up on separate occasions in the same month, we have to assume it’s normal for her to have players with real experience enter her life. Even at 20: how many times has she been pressed sexually by mature men that know what they’re doing? That is a LOT of experience. We men have no idea… because that shit does not happen to us.
A girl’s psychology is a complicated web of nuance and motivations. Not all the signals are easy to read or interpret. And yes… girls like to get “ravished” (girls use that word all the time, do you know what that word means?). We have seen girls “dance” with us in moments like this… I know I have.
“Talking about man’s need and right to behave normally. It creeps women out when we hide this stuff down. Look, a fully mature sexual woman, she can take care of herself. She knows the power she has in a room with her body and her attitude. She’s had plenty of sexual experience. Being a full mature man isn’t hurting anyone’s feelings.”
Again, Paul is dead on here. A girl’s sexual education starts much younger than ours, because she is getting hit on by aggressive, experienced guys, almost every day, from the moment she steps into puberty and fertility. By the time a given girl is in your bed, how many come-ons has she seen? That is a lot of experience. I’m still not sure I can personally appreciate the sheer volume of even a very young girl’s episodes of “education.”
“Fuck or get out of the way.”
I know guys that would call girls that want to date, but never fuck, “time wasters.” What Paul is saying is a bit harsh and direct, but it’s not weird. It’s not “only” about sex, but it is ALSO about sex. While men are usually pretty clear about what we want, girls do sometimes exhibit “game-like” behavior. They can be coy. They can hide their intent. They can extend subtle, conditional moments of opportunity, based on how well we handle ourselves.
Or they can live in a space of indecision. And count on us to help define their reality. And to lead them into territory they can’t get to on their own. This is the history of men.
And just when you think Janka is nothing but a cold-hearted psychopath:
“And of course, once you get through the interaction, and you’re both naked, after having sex, everyone loves each other, and it’s all warm and fuzzy and sweet.”
Janka is in danger of sounding romantic here… and that’s not weird either. This is also part of the story.
You have the stage of the dance BEFORE you part her legs… and then a very different stage after you’ve had sex. There is a co-mingling that happens post-sex that is often beautiful, but it requires something like a “breakthrough.” You have to “penetrate” her world, as Janka might say.
“It doesn’t mean you have to be an asshole, per se. But in the initial dance, someone has to break, and the guy should always break the girl. Meaning, she gives into your terms and you fuck her. If the guy gives in, and chases her, and doesn’t get anything, it never works.”
Janka is pointing to a lack of respect from women for men that “can’t get it done.” Does she not respect you, so you don’t get to fuck her? Or is it that you didn’t fuck her, so she knows not to respect you?
Janka’s language is drifting back into “tussle” here, but I find what he is saying terribly familiar. I call it “surrender.” I think that is exactly what this moment is all about, much of the time.
The “no”, the LMR, can sometimes be a test to see if you can get her to surrender. Not a deliberate test, but a functional one. She doesn’t necessarily know in advance, or even moment to moment, what the outcome of the dance will be. And she won’t always make that easy for you to navigate.
It is clearly not about force. I don’t personally think it’s about “the law” (although, that is the final guideline). It’s about how we handle ourselves.
Can we in fact hold our nerve, particularly under pressure? Are we at ease when the heat goes up? That level of mastery, of masculinity, of “soft dominance,” is sometimes the difference between token and real LMR. Between a makeout that goes nowhere and sex… and everything that is on the other side of sex. The joy. The romance. A potential relationship. This is the moment and there is a lot on the line.
“It’s just like horses, you gotta break ’em. In other words, you gotta break the girl, and tame her. Then you can be nice, and do nice stuff. But that dynamic has to be established right away, if there’s going to be any polarity, and any sex.”
Again, Janka dropping wisdom on us with those words. I won’t run off on another tangent but take note of the word “polarity” there.
But Yohami might have his own counterpoint:
“If you act from the ‘come here’ higher position, she still has the option to not go there, to do something else, to leave, it’s always her choice. But it’s never ‘I’m gonna keep pushing and you tell me where to stop’ (bottom guy), but ‘I’m having a party here, come’ and if she doesn’t that’s her problem (top guy).”
— Yohami
That ^ is probably the best line in the whole post. That is my goal in game right now. I want to be Top Guy. I want to be that man.
I think Top Guy is truly the place to aim for in this game. But I’m not there as often as I want to be. And in fact, a lot of girls are happy to be fucked by guys that exhibit EITHER Janka’s or Yohami’s style of sexual leadership.
It’s complicated. No one said it would be easy.
…………………………………..
Whew. Okay. Edgy stuff.
Not all of us have the experience of Janka or Yohami. So how do we negotiate the edge? How do we navigate that space, before we have the reference experiences that would make that territory familiar?
I have some ideas, but first, here are a few interesting lines on the subject:
“The more the resistance you get, the bigger your step back should be. If the resistance is of a strong character, step off completely and take a little break and restart escalating from the beginning again. However, in cases where the resistance is lighter, you can just take a small step back before proceeding.”
— Alek Rolstad
That is great advice. It’s clear. “Of a strong character.” Is she giving you a mousy little “no… no…,” lightly brushing you off? Or is she firm and stern about it? I can see the difference. And this is a solid and very well-stated reminder.
I like Alek’s guidelines. And he has more to say:
“This means that you will keep escalating (physically, or verbally in the form of sex talk), but you will only give her ‘three shots.’ Which means that you will persist only three (3) times. After resisting your third attempt, you can be somewhat sure that she is most likely not into you and that you should better move on.”
— Alek Rolstad
Now we are getting very specific, and that’s helpful.
And this “three shots” concept is a good way of looking at it. I like it, because it’s persistent. You don’t shrink away at the first rebuff. This guideline gives us permission to “push it” (as Janka would say), to let her “pace us,” but we have some sense of what is too much. And when I look into my personal history, this is close to what I have done many, many times.
This feels right.
Here is another reference point:
“Even if you manage to blast through LMR and sleep with her she is very likely to get buyer’s remorse the next day and she may not want to see you again. Note that sex after strong LMR is not very good usually anyway.”
— Some guy named Rocky, from Krauser’s blog
Excellent points there.
And I can turn that around, make it about my POV:
When I’ve pushed really hard, and had sex, I’ve had more “doubt” about it. I’ll second guess myself, and that will take some of the joy out of it. I almost felt that way with Miss Tease… that was a complicated seduction, first-time sex with a girl I barely knew. But regardless of the complexities of a girl’s sexual psychology, pushing doesn’t feel good to me. I can win the battle but lose the war. Pushing too hard does feel like Bottom Guy behavior.
Rocky’s note also helps me see this more clearly.
…………………………………..
Another question I have in moments like these is about a look of shock/fear/surprise on her face… I always use a girls non-verbal communication to help me make decisions. But it’s not always perfectly clear what those micro-expressions mean.
I really like to be dominant. But I am growing into that role, and I don’t have it all figured out. Sometimes I am very rough. Sometimes I am fierce. I enjoying making girls nervous. Sometimes I see that in her face. Sometimes that “fear” is part of the fantasy for both of us.
Here is a real and recent exchange between me and Miss Thick. I’m paraphrasing a bit to keep some personal details out of this… the first line is a reference to kissing her:
NASH: I want to break your lips
MISS THICK: You want to hurt the nice girl. It makes the girl scared…
NASH: Ummm, I kind of like that
MISS THICK: Me too
NASH: I = DANGEROUS
MISS THICK: I like you make me scared
I want to “hurt her.” She is “scared.” I enjoy that she is “scared.” She likes feeling “scared.” I am “dangerous.”
She likes all this. And so do I. “Negative” emotions functioning as happiness and sexual fulfillment… of the deepest kind when it comes to her and me.
In the context of an exchange between practiced lovers, this flows easier. But if this same exchange is with a girl you don’t know well, one you’re fucking for the first time… it’s heavy. There can be a lot of uncertainty. And some risk.
This is real stuff. It’s rare you can get a girl to spell out all the levels of psychology in so few lines as Miss Thick does above. She and I are role playing… kind of. But not really. I do like to see something like “fear” in her. And she does like to feel it. When I am less “scary”… it’s less hot for her.
It’s a “game,” but is a very realistic one.
A lot of this dance takes place on at least two levels: One physical and literal…. the other, symbolic and fantastic. Which part of the dance requires your attention? How do we best play out our roles as men and leaders in these moments?
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As we start to wrap this up, I have one more note on this topic. Another tactical tip.
Lance Mason (of Pickup101) talks about dealing with LMR in one if his products. In moments like we’re discussing here, he said he would sometimes say:
“Oh, you’re right. And you know what, you should probably go. Because I’m, like, totally turned on by you. And how you feel matters to me, but I don’t think I can keep my hands to myself. You’re so hot. You should probably go.”
This ^ is a savage paraphrase of what Lance actually said, and my apologies for butchering Lance’s grace. But that is close to the point. It’s a bit like Janka’s “Fuck or get out of the way,” if perhaps a bit more civilized. It’s a sort of “agree and amplify,” and that is part of the magic of it. It has “push/pull” elements to it.
That’s good game.
And maybe, if she’s not willing to progress with you deeper into the relationship, maybe you’d rather have the rest of the night to yourself. I know I would prefer a good beer and some smoke to a LMR “matress battle.” Not always, but much of the time.
But actually, Lance said that the girl would often be very surprised at that line. Not many guys would help shoo her out of the bedroom. Lance takes the LMR and puts himself at “the cause” with this move. And the girl is suddenly “at the effect.” She is dazed by that reversal. And I like that too. It’s powerful.
Very Top Guy. Yohami likes Lance too. Lance is another guy worth studying.
And after he said that line, he would stand up, and feed her clothes to her so she could get dressed. And she would sometimes soften, and come to him, and he’d throw her down on the bed and give her the proper rogering.
Nicely done, Lance. And maybe beyond just tactics, this is really good mindset stuff.
Forget the girl (and what might be her sexual power games). This is about having respect for yourself. For not dragging yourself through this kind of drama. You said, “c’mere.” She didn’t. So you show her the door. That sounds closer to Top Guy to me.
“When I have certain terms… the guy who then breaks his own terms to satisfy her, what happens is, she doesn’t respond, he loses the girl and he loses his self-respect. So then he’s double hurt. He is without the girl and he feels he’s betrayed himself, because he didn’t want to do that. It’s always better to stick to what your terms are, and do what you want, and the girl and come and go.”
— Janka
Lance’s move is a way of not compromising. We don’t have to fuck the girl, but that doesn’t mean we want to compromise either. Because sometimes compromise means you feel like you betrayed yourself.
And the whole thing is slick. No anger. No “freeze out” bullshit where you “check your email” and guilt or isolate her into fucking you… that’s not good game. Lance’s move is 1/2 calling her bluff, and 1/2 choosing to make better use of your time. It’s bold. It’s smart.
This is about us. Not the girls. What do WE want? If we can’t get what we want… what ELSE do we want? Let’s stick to what we want here. For each of us, we are the center of our world.
And his advice is very specific. You could combine it with Alek’s “three shots,” then she’s done, show her the door. That’s fair. And actionable.
And if she turns back and fucks you after all… great.
…………………………………..
There is so much more I meant to show from Janka’s fresh and diverse range of contributions. He actually has some amazing things to say about relationships. I’ll tease you with this:
“I am 34, my girlfriend is 22, I want a big family… I have an idea of being the leader of my family. For me, it’s important I have someone of very high character. I need someone I can rely on. A flimsy girl is going to breakdown underneath me. I need a strong woman of high character. I want her young enough that she has a lot of child bearing years ahead. At 22, she can have a lot of kids. And attractive, good sex.”
He sounds like a proper Patriarch here and I respect him for it. The guy has range. He is surprising, in that he is so merciless when it comes to taking the notch, but that is not all he has to offer. He’s a poon hound, but he’s a solid man beyond just getting his dick wet.
If you can find his materials, he is very much worth studying. Highly recommended.
………………………
Alright… Janka, take us home.
“It’s all a male-sided thing… Men, by definition, are the ones who impact the life of the woman.”
This is leadership. And this ^ BTW, is a perfect synopsis of what I was trying to say in my Muh Hypergamy post. It’s never about the girls… it’s about us.
“That should carry through all the way. The theme of penetration. You gotta penetrate at every level, all the way to the sexual penetration. You have to penetrate her visual field, then her auditory field, then her, like, her stupid calendar… get in there. It’s from that very first moment all the way to actual sex. It’s not the woman’s job to do it. It’s the guy has gotta get in there. When I stop doing it, it’s not like they carry the baton. They are fundamentally indecisive and it’s the man who needs to go in and impact.”
Yeah.
How you lead the dance of escalation is ultimately up to you. In those moments in the bedroom, there is a leader… and there is a little girl. We’re in charge. Janka is right, it’s up to us penetrate her world. All of us with experience know she’s not going to do it for us.
Okay, that’s all I got.
I’m grateful to Janka, to Yohami, to Krauser, to Alek, to Rocky, to Lance, and to all the eloquent seducers before me, for sharing their experience. For being in every way… a light in the dark.
I hope very much to get a chance to “dance” with some girls on this trip. Now or in the future, there will be moments when it’s all on the line… for physical sex and symbolic surrender. And I feel a little more prepared for all of that now.
My thanks to the great Rivelino, once again, for inspiring this piece.
Viva daygame.
Great post, excellent.
Women want to be taken. When you back off because of her, you are putting her in the leadership and she will hate that, it makes her the masculine in that moment and you become the feminine.
As a man, you decide what to do. If you change your own game plan because of her, you’re not going after what you want. Women like a man who gets what he wants, who molds the world to his liking, so backing off rather than constantly adapting and being persistent and flexible will make you less of a man in her eyes.
So a man goes after what he wants with all he has adapting to the obstacles in the way. A man who lets an obstacle hold him back has not reaches yet his full masculinity. Like David Deida would say, a man penetrates the world in the same way he penetrates his woman.
You, as the man, penetrate her objections, which increases her attraction.
I also agree with you that a lot of women (especially Asian girls who you like) have A LOT of sexual hangups, so they won’t just throw their pusses at a guy because they like him. Yohami’s game of letting the women escalate is more tailored after Rockstar game: in a place where the context is that you’re famous and a rockstar, the social custom is that it is okay for women to escalate on you, so they don’t get slut shamed for doing it. She can justify it saying: “He’s a rockstar!” and everyone will be like “You are right girl”, it is expected.
But even the most Top Guy when in a context where the girl throwing her pussy at him is not socially okay, no matter his value, his better approach is to penetrate the girl’s defenses intelligently and adaptively, just like a man should.
Top Guy Yohami game is contextual, it is an exception because you need to set it up somewhere where your value is shared within the whole place. In the street, you’re not the Rockstar. You are a man. So your way out of being just another guy is being a man who penetrates the world with his thoughts, feelings and actions aligned to go after what he wants 100% with no compromise. Of course, this doesn’t mean to not take the girls’ feelings into consideration, just that you adapt and penetrate those objections like you pierce through a saber tooth in prehistoric times.
^^ Yes
“You, as the man, penetrate her objections”
The orifices, not the objections. The doors, not the walls. The YESes, not the NOes.
“Yohami’s game of letting the women escalate”
No, the man is escalating, the girl is screening and closing the feedback loop, aka she’s reacting to your escalation. But you’re the one driving, it’s not ‘letting her escalate’ (which is probably a bad plan)
“his better approach is to penetrate the girl’s defenses”
Nope.
But zoom out and look at it from the distance.
When a girl wants something, does she defend against it?
If you’re giving a girl what she really wants – would she say ‘no’?
“Top Guy Yohami game is contextual”
When I talk about top guy it’s about a frame reference, behaviors, attitudes, etc. So no.
“In the street, you’re not the Rockstar. ”
No to all of this.
Dude, I work in marketing, people have a hard time taking steps to get what they really want.
Even when they know it is possible to get what they want, and even if you prove to them they can do it, people still have a lot of hangups about doing it because of hangups: they don’t believe they deserve it, they think other people will hate them if they get some success, they fear the unknown, they were raised to not claim more than what they get in life, etc, etc etc.
This is not theory, this is proven, As marketers, our money depends on understanding this. People have A LOT of hangups about getting what they want. And this is with grown ass men, which are supposed to be more impervious to other people’s frames.
It’s even worse for women: women are bonding creatures, the opinions of others matters to them even more than men, so they absorb social conditioning even more than men do. Women are supposed to definite themselves based on the external, just like a real man is supposed to define himself from his own set of standards.
So yes, you can give girls what they truly want and they will have hangups about doing it. That’s what the danger of over-gaming and of being too high value for the girl exists, all top level player knows that you can reach a point where you are so much higher value than the girl in her mind that she just gives up on you. And that is why in Top Guy game, the biggest thing is having the girl believe there is a real good reason why you chose her, otherwise you’re too good for her and she will give up and not even comply.
It’s a dance. We’re dealing with humans. Human beings are fucked up in the head. They hate suffering yet they are addicted to suffering. They hate not having what they want yet they don’t believe they deserve what they want. Girls and guys. We take the time to work on our internal issues and confront out internal demons, 99% of hot girls don’t.
So you still have to escalate, lead, and take charge.
I believe every girl is a dirty little sex-maniac slut (just how I like them), and my job is to save her from her hangups and social programming by leading her to the cock she desires so much because she can’t do it herself (even we couldn’t have done it without the years of work on ourselves to be able to go for what we want). So yes, the girl will LMR, it’s all the mess of social conditioning inside her coming up and my role as the hero of the story is to save her from it and take responsibility away from her so she can be free to be the slut for my cock she craves.
That’s why I value being older even more. Not like Nash says about the Vampire metaphor, that doesn’t appeal to me.
I am more valuable to women as an older man because no young guy can have the experience and the strength to stay calm and weather the storm of social conditioning and sexual hangups that will be a woman who is getting closer and closer to sex. It’s both what she both most desires and most fears because of so many hangups. A young guy will get blown in the wind, he just doesn’t have the years of work on himself to be the rock in the storm. Every year I get more solid, so she can let the sexual hangups storm come out in full effect, she can LMR and object and say all the mean things she wants, but as long as she stays there, she is hoping and begging for me to be to rock solid guy who will weather that storm and take her to the shores of safety where I penetrate her fully and take responsibility away from her so she can be the little girl she loves to be, care-free and well fucked.
This reminds me of The Blueprint when Typer talked about Ozzie and how amazing his game was in his 40s. He said Ozzie couldn’t have such solid game in his 20s. You need to go though a lot of bullshit and to hell and back to become a solid man.
Top Guy game is cool. But like Krauser argued in The Womanizer’s Bible DVDs, it is fragile. You can lose your reputation or become “not hot” at any moment. Then it’s all gone and you’re back to the same place as us: building value from zero with our balls and our brains. We are building something that isn’t fragile but is harder: the ability to go out anywhere and seduce women, something that depends only on who we are, not on context or fame or other people’s value of us.
We are like the hunter who goes out to kill the beast. We can do it any day. Top Guy game is like the farmer who takes care of his land. When it is good, it is good. But if a drought happens, he is fucked and has no skills to kill his own beast. Both together are good, but only beast mode daygamer game can survive whether there is a drought or in good times: he can go out, pick his prey, dance with it, enjoy the process then eat the fresh kill. He doesn’t need to wait for his own domesticated cows to come willingly to the slaughterhouse because it’s not as much fun and it’s a lot more fragile.
Our game depends on us 100%. Top Guy game depends on the context, which is in a stoic way outside your control so very fragile.
A hot singer today is tomorrow’s forgotten name. A daygamer will only get a stronger frame and better skills with time. Plus, we deal with wild beasts, with women who will test us. We don’t deal with domesticated animals, women who come already impressed with us so they give us token resistance: game on easy mode with no chance to develop true hardcore skills for the times when context isn’t in our favor.
Alright, so you’re on marketing. Let’s say you run a test campaign, two different ads for the same product to test conversions. The first ad shows poor results and a lot of your target demographic dislikes it, the second ad generates a lot of interest and people are trying to sign for your mailing list.
Do you put your money on which ad?
————————————
Do you understand how this is not about pushing against rejection.
Find the Ad that generates the most conversions, then leave that as a base, and generate then more. Then understand what is what people are perceiving, what leads to what, what the frictions are, and what the costumers wants, and perfect the campaign.
Now compare that to not running test campaigns, but making just one, and spam it hard.
Not enough conversions? spam more. Not getting enough sales or leads? spam more. It’s a numbers game!!
————————————–
The other thing missing here is that in male / female courtship, the male has to be the prize or you won’t be able to dance the dance.
Your whole job really is to show her you’re the prize. All Game revolves around this sole point.
All the chase, all the resistance, last minute or otherwise only means that she’s not a ‘yes girl’ yet, but she’s getting there, and will get there, if you take her there.
———————————–
“Top Guy game is cool. But like Krauser argued in The Womanizer’s Bible DVDs, it is fragile. ”
Top Guy is not fame or social proof or lifestyle.
When we use “Top Guy” on this blog it’s specifically about skills, behavior, dominance, frame, etc. And it’s contrasted to “bottom guy” who’s the top guy’s personal slave and lives as a servant. When you approach a girl, she’ll try to check who of the two guys you are.
This is not the same case.
If the girl is on your bed giving you LMR, it was NOT SPAM. She is there, she is interested, she bought into your value proposition and is already inside the funnel. It is like Don Juan told Castaneda “Jump into the Abyss, it’s not as wide as you think”. When it’s moving into sex, that is the girl jumping into the unknown, facing the fear of whether you are truly alpha or she’s getting conned into getting a beta’s baby.
Your penetration is what shows you are the alpha worthy of her womb. No LMR = any guy who is a good actor could fuck that girl. Resistance is part of her process to weed out the weak from the strong men.
And Yohami, man, I might be mis-understanding what your style of game is.
Do you have a link somewhere that explains what is Top Guy game to you and whether it requires social status to be effective? Or at least communicate it clearly and explain what is Top Guy game in a clear way that even a child would get.
I am a fan of: “If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein
Because if you’re a random dude walking up to a girl in a store, there is very little reason for her to pursue you. Women believe “if it doesn’t happen, then it wasn’t meant to be”. They don’t take much initiative in the beginning, so you as the man you lead. Not woman will just escalate on you. It is true in my experience, and a myth that GLL talked about years ago:
https://www.goodlookingloser.com/laid/index/beta-male-in-movies
He said, from deep experience:
>>I don’t remember how many times that a try-hard guy has told me that a certain girl “fucked their brains out,” or “took them home [from a bar or club],” or “asked to give them a blowjob,” or “grabbed their dick and put it her mouth.” I must have heard that from like 5 guys in Law School in first week and like 150 other times in my life. I’ve heard huge dorky guys and boring generic conservatively dressed preppy college guys tell me that they fucked a strippers, hot actresses and pornstars. Not likely.
>>Obviously, these guys aren’t getting any chicks and just want to try to look cool. At the same time, after hearing a ton of guys tell me this, it’s clear to me that they actually don’t understand how sex works.
>>Clearly, they don’t understand their role in the process.
>>Never has myself OR ANY of my friends that actually bang a lot of hot girls had ANY situations where a girl takes us home, undresses us and “fucks us silly.” It DOESN’T HAPPEN. If it ever did, it would happen one time in your entire life and you would need to be amazingly good-looking and the chick would have to older than you.
>>The point is, you have to get used and embrace taking the lead and creating situations with chicks. They will not do it for you. They aren’t attracted to timid beta male behavior. Being with a beta male doesn’t make them feel sexy.
>>Even if you know that this isn’t how it works and can realize the comical element to these scenes, I just want to reinforce that it is your job to embrace and take 100% of the lead. Not 50%. Not 80%. Not 90%. 100%. You are leading the chick through the entire experience.
>>If the chick gives you positive feedback then great. If she doesn’t, keep doing what you’re doing and don’t stop unless she stops you. If she stops you, don’t be reactive, don’t disagree with her, change the topic try again in a couple of minutes. Persistence and courage is a huge turn-on for chicks, especially the top-shelf girls. Be a man!
>>The only time chicks ever embrace the aggressor role is AFTER you’ve been messing around. Hot chicks love to feel feminine and know they are with an alpha male. Girls HATE to feel like sluts and they HATE to be judged. That is why they do not do this stuff for guys they just met.
Yeah you’re using Top Guy as if it meant Fame or Social Proof or something, and as if it was a passive thing.
Top Guy means Alpha, Bottom guy means Beta. The Top Guy is the owner, commander, leader, decider, frame owner, rules. The Bottom Guy is the servant, follower, fearful, complainer.
The girls open up to the Top Guy and offer resistance to the Bottom Guy.
Your job in Game is behave like the Top Guy. Hopefully you go past emulating it and become it.
“This is not the same case.”
Don’t dismiss it, think about it.
“If the girl is on your bed giving you LMR, it was NOT SPAM.”
SPAM in this case is when you repeat the same message or the same pattern regardless of what feedback you’re getting, and if faced with resistance or disinterest you just increase the frequency and the pressure.
Some SPAM leads do convert – eventually you hit on someone who can get value of your approach.
But the LMR is not “last minute” It’s not that she was a yes girl and completely DTF and at the end she changes her mind. The resistance was there all along and you didn’t address it, so you find about it at ‘the last minute’. But it was there already, unsolved, unadressed, and you put up with it. Till the end.
“Your penetration is what shows you are the alpha worthy of her womb. ”
Nope.
“No LMR = any guy who is a good actor could fuck that girl”
Nope.
“Resistance is part of her process to weed out the weak from the strong men.”
Nope. Resistance is what Bottom Guy gets. You need to hang out with girls who like you more.
>> But zoom out and look at it from the distance.
>> When a girl wants something, does she defend against it?
>>
>> If you’re giving a girl what she really wants – would she say ‘no’?
>>
>> When I talk about top guy it’s about a frame reference, behaviors, attitudes, etc. So no
— Yohami
I’m sold. He’s right.
I didn’t get it at first, but I get it (conceptually) now… and am trying to put it into practice.
“Drive the car, with your foot is on the accelerator and her’s is on the brake. But you accelerate in such a way that she never uses the brake.”
— ^ paraphrase of Yohami
That’s escalation, the Top Guy way. That’s what I want to be.
Beginner or novice guys have to collect a lot of experience before any of this makes sense… or that is how it was for me. I’m still in that process.
.
Disclaimer, some do:
“When a girl wants something, does she defend against it / If you’re giving a girl what she really wants – would she say ‘no’”
Some people, and some girls, do actively fight against what they want, do actively kill their own dreams, do actively bury the happiness if they find any.
Do avoid these types!
>> I also agree with you that a lot of women (especially Asian girls who you like) have A LOT of sexual hangups
I never said that lovely, charming, feminine Asian girls have “hangups.” How dare you.
: ]
>> so they won’t just throw their pusses at a guy because they like him
But here… I agree.
Context, context, context.
This is why I feel like all pick-up, and self-help, advice is “bullshit”. It isn’t really, but I say that because it doesn’t factor in two things: your personality (and therefore congruence) and context.
on Janka vs Yohami…
It is clear Yohami is a master seducer, and a “top guy”. He was/is an ecosystem hustler as far as I can tell. I am no expert on Yohami’s game and am open to the idea of being wrong here.
Janka, is a cold approach gamer who’s 1st interactions last less than 90 seconds.
(Krauser, said that Paul Janka’s “ebook is really just a logistics manual masquerading as pick-up advice”. Is that true…idk, but I see where he’s coming from. https://krauserpua.com/2010/04/15/some-product-reviews/)
Not quite apples vs oranges, but definitely granny smith vs red delicious.
There are a few fundamental principles to all game: lead, frame, and outcome independence. After that I’m not convinced.
Context, context, context
You showed me a great video on frame by Fader at a LS conference. One of the things he drives home is value = compliance. Is that an absolute? Maybe, but it stops short. I would say frame = compliance.
When a police officer tells someone to do something 99% of the people will do it 99% of the time, right or wrong. Not a lot of value being delivered to you, but once again context is different in pickup.
Working on Fader’s assertion being true: Yohami has massive explicitly stated social value. Janka literally has almost no explicit value and some implicit (whatever the broad congers up in her mind, which, btw, is nothing to sneeze at) value.
Janka meets them downstairs at his apartment (which he describes as a closet in Manhattan which doesn’t add value and probably does take him down a point in value if her hamster was working hard) and tries to fuck them without going to anyplace. Are you fucking kidding me…of course you’re going to get LMR and need to “push”.
I think if ecosystem hustlers would try gaming women this way they would see that this is part of it. There are no free lunches.
Paul goes out and hunts his prey, and tries to fuck them within an hour of meeting them. He gives up value to gain choice. You’re going to have to be constantly “pushing” to take compliance.
Ecosystem game gives up a certain amount of freedom to choose, but you gain massive value, and is the “easiest” way to get laid. “Top guy” game allows for a lot more “pull” while getting compliance but you are at the mercy to the whims of your ecosystem. Many guys are finding out that the ecosystem can be fickle.
Pick your ecosystem wisely aka be in a rock band
Context, context, context.
I believe the best progression, with an emphasis on getting results aka laid, looks something like this:
1) Janka/60 YoC game (escalation, abundance and outcome independence)
2) Casanova style game. Your favorite flavor of push/pull to raise conversion rates. She is chasing you or you at least frame it that way. It is a con, and is about knowing what buttons to push on her to get the job done on this specific girl. An example of this is Franco Seduction. It is a rollercoaster for her.
3) Zan Perrion/Rake game. Open and honest with almost no woman walking away with buyers remorse. This is the highest form of game in my mind. This is pursuit from a position of power. You overwhelm her.
OR
You can, as Stephen Covey recommends, Start with the End in Mind. If you want to be a Rake, and you’re willing to give up short-term gratification to get there quicker…start there.
Definitions matter because they allow for the right strategy and tactics to get the job done, otherwise you’re throwing shit against the wall.
I’m aware the definition I’m using of “pushing” isn’t being used as it is normally in PUA terminology. Here it’s about pushing through the resistance and pushing her boundaries by escalation.
Yo man, who is Rake and where can I get his stuff? :)
A rake is a type of seducer. At a 10,000 foot view a rake is on the women’s team. The tension doesn’t come from conflict, it comes from obstacles that are put in the way of seduction for the rake to overcome (society, husband, etc). Zan Perrion is the only true rake I know of operating in the seduction world, but there are others I’m sure. I think Steve Jabba might be rake, but haven’t studied him enough to know.
My apologies…I realized the error in my ways :)
Nash or Sundance, is there a link to the Fader speech at a LS conference?
I would appreciate that. Thank you.
>> It is clear Yohami is a master seducer, and a “top guy”. He was/is an ecosystem hustler as far as I can tell. I am no expert on Yohami’s game and am open to the idea of being wrong here.
I hope the comments are fleshing this out so that don’t equate Top Guy and “ecosystem”/”Beiber” game. Top Guy is attitudinal. It’s a portable skillset.
Yohami likes being at the top of situational hierarchy as a way of getting the environmental responses that Top Guy gets. It’s the best way to quickly internalize that mindset. I think I agree with that.
But it doesn’t matter where you get the mindset… if you’re congruent with it… you’re Top Guy.
I think this is why so many “sociopaths” are great at game. They are missing the part that keeps them from feeling Top Guy entitlement out of gates. They are missing the modesty/insecurities of normal guys… so girls see them as Top Guy… because of their rocksolid entitlement.
Top Guy is much more than rocksolid entitlement.
>> Another piece of this is… it’s not just “be calibrated.” Of course. Endlessly calibrated, but more than that.
>> It’s calibrated + aggressive + experienced + an expert interpreter of what you’re seeing. And probably even more.
>> This is part of why this is hard to “take in.” 6 year olds will never get this. This is proper PHD stuff. You need a lot of experience in all of these areas to run the kind of game Yohami is talking about.
I wrote this BELOW in response to Chulo…
I think this is close to some of the essential ingredients of Top Guy.
And Yohami has particular skill at the **expert interpreter of what you’re seeing** element… and that helps him avoid being in situations when he might otherwise see “resistance.” He is ahead of the game… reading her so well, calibrating so quickly, that she never gets to resistance… he’s off ahead of her, singing birdsong ( (c) Krauser).
>> There are a few fundamental principles to all game: lead, frame, and outcome independence. After that I’m not convinced.
You’re on to something here, in terms of “categories” to study… to look in to.
>> Yohami has massive explicitly stated social value. Janka literally has almost no explicit value and some implicit (whatever the broad congers up in her mind, which, btw, is nothing to sneeze at) value.
I know you/I talked on the phone about this today (great talk, man… thanks). Yohami’s value likely comes thru in his walk, in everything he does… it’s not “top of the pyramid” specific, in terms of ecosystem or explicit hierarchy… but it IS top of the pyramid in term of the impression he gives off… no context needed (for the most part). And I think Janka has that same value. I think it IS explicit, it’s just not “external.”
If women are “womb-guarders” ( (c) Nash), then they are very good at seeing explicit value. And if they are saying yes, they are saying yes to explicit value. That’s what Janka is selling. And people are critical of that value in Janka, because of his looks… but that isn’t all his value, that’s not even the important part.
>> …of course you’re going to get LMR and need to “push”.
I think Yohami would say that Top Guy could do everything Janka is doing on the street, and then “drive in a way that she never hits the brake” once she was up at his pad. I think Janka is so consistent in his patterns, we don’t expect him to do that… but it’s possible.
>> Paul goes out and hunts his prey… gives up value to gain choice.
I don’t buy this. Yohami used to say daygamers are “low value.” But if Top Guy made the choice to daygame, would Top Guy transform into low value? No. He would daygame, the Top Guy way. That’s what I want to learn to do.
>> You can, as Stephen Covey recommends, Start with the End in Mind
This is what I want. That’s why I won’t shut up about Top Guy. I want that end, and I’m trying to see everything through that lens.
Thanks for being here, Sundance.
——————————————
Most of the time LMR means she’s approaching sex but is not turned on enough yet, she hasn’t become a “YES” girl.
The rest of the time, the resistance is actually your ramp, that’s when the girl WANTS to play rough. How to know what is what? simple:
Pay attention to what she responds to. What is turning her on? do more of that. What is turning her off? do less of that.
I state this because unless you understand the line above, you’ll think that the resistance is there because you have to push against the resistance. Which is just stupid and this is how you don’t bang them. But it’s bigger than that.
Way bigger.
We’re talking about a girl who’s already at your place while you’re pushing against rejection, and she’s there semi naked and for all intents and purposes ready, but is still pushing you away because she’s not that convinced, and you think that is the issue.
That’s not the issue – consider that girl a success case.
The issue is the other two hundred women you did not bring home when you wanted, because of ignoring the basics:
“What is turning her on? do more of that. What is turning her off? do less of that.”
——————————————
Let’s go back to when you started having success in Game. You were bringing a bunch of girls home but they didn’t want to have sex, or so you said.
I said they were all there for sex but that you were bouncing against invisible walls, rubbing yourself against obstacles that weren’t there, pushing against walls, instead of finding the doors and crossing them.
So back then you were doing power games when all you had to do was use your hands and take their clothes off. Use your hands on her clit, touch her, grope her, lead her to the room, etc. You did and that’s how you landed Firecracker.
But every other girl is the same. They are all there because they are in the middle of the road towards a yes, but not quite there yet. So it’s as simple as having them cross the street. How?
Pay attention to what they respond to, and do more of that. Pay attention to what they don’t respond to, and do less of that.
—————————————–
So with Janka or other guys – it goes like this. If you’re a guy who will push against resistance, that doesn’t come up in the room with the LMR. That is showing all all the time, since you cold approached. All these girls who didn’t respond to your approach? they are not compatible with you or your approach. So if you’re a guy who pushes and chases, when you get a YES it will be from a girl who matches that approach, so you’ll be seeing that face of the girl the whole time, during screening, before sex, after sex, forever.
You are filtering the girl with your approach.
Because what you’re doing, unless you know what you’re doing, is using a key on infinite doors. Then the door that opens is the one that matches your key.
Do you have a low-value vibe? you’ll fuck girls who go with guys with a low-value vibe.
Are you wild and dangerous? you’ll fuck girls who do wild and dangerous.
Are you fake? your girls will be, too.
There’s zero ambiguity in that a guy who wants to go near-rape and has bedroom battles finds girls who need that kind of foreplay.
There’s zero ambiguity in a guy who approaches sex courtship like it’s tussle, and finds girls who will do tussle with him.
We’re not talking ‘Game’ here, but ‘games’
When I was playing with the rock band I’d fuck girls who fuck musicians who are in rock bands.
When I moved to that luxurious apartment I’d fuck girls who throw themselves at men with money.
When Riv picks up girls and talks them into doing sex/media/modeling, he fucks girls who fuck photographers etc.
So what is what?
People live in more than on one layer, belong to more than one tribe, and things interconnect, so it all becomes fuzzy. How do you figure what is what?
Pay attention.
When you’re there, talking to her, starting to do your dance, what is she doing? what does she respond to? where are her walls? what things make her eyes lit? what things she finds funny? what is she offering? what does she want?
And to explore that – move your compass and try different things and then compare.
—————————————–
I’ll continue later.
So with every the actual thing that she’ll respond to will vary – look back. With Firecracker all you had to do was to ignore that she wouldn’t kiss you and use your hands to undress her.
But if you’d had gotten stuck in the ‘she wont kiss me’ then you’d have experienced that as ‘last minute resistance’ which it was not. But it could have been, if you hand’t managed to go past it and turn her on and rub her the right way – the way of the no resistance.
Or you could have tried and forced your kiss because that’s where the wall was and have a bedroom battleground.
But why do that when you can have sex
>>Pay attention to what she responds to. What is turning her on? do more of that. What is turning her off? do less of that.
Yeah man. So much of this stuff is about being sensitive in the moment.
What’s fucked up is this both helps and harms you.
If you give a girl more of what she wants and less of what she doesn’t, it is good. But if she detects that you’re changing what you want to do to adapt to her, then you’re not alpha anymore.
I think the place it is coming from needs to be highlighted: you’re not adapting to her because you fear losing her or need the outcome, you’re adapting because you’re a Pro, a man who gets it, who understands women, who has practiced the process over and over again (a guy who gets laid a lot is what women want: a man they could be laid a lot, at least).
Sometimes, the act of not doing what she wants and doing what you want is what she wants: she wants you to be a man who penetrates the world and does what he wants, rather than what she wants.
We have to keep paradoxical principles in mind at the same time, as Tyler loves to say.
It’s not a paradox. It looks like that when you’re bottom guy, because you start off as a pleaser with no core value and want to take value from the girl – but to do so you have to act like a man who has value and doesn’t need her. The paradox is for the bottom guy because you’re not supposed to get the girl, that’s why Game looks like a trick.
“What’s fucked up is this both helps and harms you.”
Top guy first, calibration second, that’s all.
>>When you’re there, talking to her, starting to do your dance, what is she doing? what does she respond to? where are her walls? what things make her eyes lit? what things she finds funny? what is she offering? what does she want?
But isn’t that supplicating? Instead of being the man who doesn’t change because of the girl, you are “adapting” and changing how you act based on the girl, won’t that be “un-manly”?
I mean, if you’re the sensitive guy with a girl, the rockstar with another, the dominant guy with another, the artist with another, the masseur for another, then you’re not a rock solid foundation for her, you’re a chameleon who is constantly adapting but is never any one thing that is “himself”. Isn’t that so?
Because it sounds to me like you’ll need to be doing some small things waiting for green lights from the girl on any particular thing to double down on it.
And waiting for green lights from the girl is bottom guy behavior.
No but I get why you think so – it’s the ‘mindfuck paradox’ when you look at game from the bottom. From the bottom guy / beta frame, all you have is service, so this stuff about ‘giving her what she responds to sounds like pushover.
That’s why it’s TOP GUY first, and calibration SECOND. The core stuff is your value, up there, dominance, your boundaries, your direction and intent. The calibration is about the exchange and your communication – it’s the delivery system of your value: not your value itself.
The beta / bottom guy has no value, he only has services, so he has to please to get in.
Switch contexts.
—————–
Go to a standup stand with a few of your jokes and own material and with your intent to make the people laugh.
Go to a concert with your original music and your true art and with the intent to move the crowd emotionally.
Go to a crowd of disorganized people with a vision of how things should work and with your intent to organizing them in the way that you ‘know’ things should be.
Run a company.
Run a conversation with someone for hours without running out of subjects or having stalled moments.
In all these instances you can’t be a ‘man who only listens to his own impulses and does whatever he wants’. All these exchanges are feedback loops, and you have to be tuned to the people you’re interacting with.
When you’re having sex, hopefully – you’re rotating the woman and alternating positions, paying attention to both your own pleasure and hers, hers is easy to catch because she’ll moan according to the intensity of what she is feeling, so you ‘do more of that’ until it gets boring then you search for another climax.
When you’re leading you need to take in the returning feedback from your input so you get the outcome you desire. This is ‘calibration’ and it’s part of being a social animal, but even more important when you are in the leading role: because everything depends on you. The more you calibrate and can adapt the rhythm and delivery to get to the outcome you want, the better as a leader you are, the more trust you get, the more the people you’re interacting with cede control and let you take the reigns. Without ‘resistance’.
So the difference here is again the frame reference.
For the beta / bottom guy / nice guy / pleaser, taking feedback means being reactive and not doing things or only doing things as they are requested.
For the alpha / top guy / dominant guy / leader, taking feedback being attentive to the response you have AFTER you have taken initiative, it’s taking the input of your audience, and using that to create your story and lead the thing to where you want it.
If you’re not taking the feedback in you’re isolated and can’t lead.
It’s like the 2 ads marketing campaign example.
Ok, Yohami, I am letting it sink in.
So is what you’re talking about similar to what this guy is talking about starting at this part of the video?
https://youtu.be/v45pDnye9yI?t=7m52s
Sort of, but he’s still presenting it as a trick
Great piece, comprehensive. Top Guy also gets LMR, it’s eventually unavoidable. LMR can also be about her nerves, not just her coyness…. that got me thinking, might want to try a little technique to calm her forebrain down. You mentioned the warm glow after sex – it might be a good idea to talk about that with her, to move her mind beyond the obstacle into a more comfortable spot. It’s like an end-around. I’m gonna put that in my pocket, too.
>> Top Guy also gets LMR, it’s eventually unavoidable
I agree. This reminds me of Mark Manson’s advice (back when he was Red Pill):
If you’re not getting your advances rejected at least 50% of the time, you’re playing it too safe.
So to me, a 100% no LMR is staying within your own comfort zone and only getting the low hanging fruit girls.
Even Mystery at the top of his game gets LMR, and is not shy about sharing a video of it:
And you know, Mystery is the master of building social value and showcasing he is a Top Guy.
Mystery is bottom guy
He is not. He has his own game adapted to his environment.
Just like there is no inferior animal because each animal is a successful adaptation to its environment, he is a successful adaptation to the Los Angeles Nightclub Scene of late 90s-early 2000s.
In that environment and time period, he personifies what a Top Guy would be. He is a Magician, that was his hobby, so his clothing style and attire matches that perfectly.
He’s a bottom guy on that same video, just look at him.
Yohami, there isn’t just 1 way to daygame, like there isn’t only one dish in the world that is considered delicious and everything else is sub-par.
You like the “hot guy blasé” game who doesn’t give women validation. And that is fine and good.
Me and Nash, we like the Octopus game. We attract women through out desire and enjoyment of them. Women want a man who has is thoughts, emotions and actions aligned, that is NOT NEEDY because it comes from pure desire. So yes, I like to be close to the woman, to penetrate her with my eyes, to smell her, to enjoy her energy and her presence without needing her. So my body language will be different from yours, I will be close to her creating our own small world where only me, her and my desire for her exists, and where her femininity compels her to satisfy the desires of a strong man because that is what the feminine does.
I am like the warrior who is engaging in close hand to hand combat. You prefer the King game where they bring the pretty female slaves to his bed for his enjoyment.
Both work, we just like to get dirty and let our state of desire transfer to the woman giving her tingles because she knows my cock is hard for her wanting to penetrate her.
My game is like http://love.dayga.me/ talked about a study that Street Attraction guys talked about:
>>A social scientist researched in Polynesia and lived with a tribe that lived mostly independently from ‘civilazation’, totally naked and who (if I remember correctly) only had a simple language.
>>So he had two epiphanies:
>>a) The men of the tribe offered him their women. They simply didn’t have the restrictions of the monogamous value system. What I found more relevant for game was
>>b) that because they went around totally naked, it was obvious for every woman when she was arousing a man in front of her – his erection. The women could then choose to have sex with him or not. As simple as that – no courtship or gaming required.
And that made it so ‘tangible’ why we should never ‘hide our dick’ in set and why birds react so positively on authentic, direct expression of sexual interest, nowadays transported by (body) language and not direct sight.
Hard cock turns women on by itself, not just the cool Top Guy. Hard Cock Octopus game is something I enjoy, that is congruent with my personality, and that got me women hot beyond what I expected. I fondly remember the 19 years old japanese virgin who was going to be a TV show model, and who would ask me: “Why am I attracted to you so much?? Much better looking guys pursue me, but I keep coming back to you, why??” It’s the power of the Hard Cock Octopus baby, unbridled desire in my eyes and in my touches just makes her wet. Or a fashion model from Macau who I would just kiss and touch in public on the first date, she telling me to stop doing it because the country is conservative, but I just couldn’t hold my desire. Then later she told me guys are intimidated by her, I was the most confident guy she has ever met. Was I a top guy? Nope, she was dealing with men giving her cars as gifts because she is a model, and me I walked to our date just drinking coffee in the mall. Yet I turned her on because of the Hard Cock Octopus power of pure male desire. Pure male desire is the world’s greatest aphrodisiac.
I even doubt Top Guy game is any more effective than any game. I remember evolutionary psychologists were noticing that females don’t always want to sleep with the highest status guy in the group, so they started coming up with the theory of mate status: that sexual status and social status are not the same, they are independent. Well, then Top Guy doesn’t get all girls, just like Octopus guy doesn’t get all girls, or even Women Lover Zan guy doesn’t. Women are different, they like all sorts of styles of game.
Game is the art of emulating Top Guy man :-)
Maybe. But it may be even more contextual than we think. I haven’t gamed in the USA, maybe Top Guy is the game that works in America, while for Asian and European girls, Pure Desire Hard Cock Octopus game (a mouthful lol) is what works.
Todd talks in the following video how in the USA you need to be super confident like a super star arrogant male to get the hot girls, but that style of game doesn’t work on European girls who will think you’re just an asshole. So Top Guy game might be a specific USA Centric game for American girls and foreign girls who are influenced by the US culture so much they go live there.
See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYMXVRuXM0
That’s “tribes”. The girls in Europe belong to tribes that have their own version of Top Guy, or Alpha. So the difference is the culture clash – but Todd can still get laid in Europe just toning down the USA culture, so can the rest of RSD, they are all pretty good now.
That Todd’s video is pretty good and he’s saying the same as I do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYMXVRuXM0 watch past the middle when he says there’s an universal blueprint for the attractive man (the basics, top guy), and how then you have to listen to her and calibrate (what I point at all the time of paying attention to what she responds to).
If you do these 2 things, core value (basics) and doubling down on what she reponds to (calibration, or the running campaign ads example above) then you don’t run into ‘last minute’ (there’s no such thing) resistance because the way is all paved beforehand, assuming you escalated, aroused her, led her etc before getting to your place or hers or the hotel or whatever.
I stopped experiencing ‘resistance’ after a year in game, back in 2008
Hey Yohami, a very important and direct question: Can a top guy with top game get any woman he desires? Or is he exposed to the same conditions as all of us: most girls are No, a few are Maybe, and even fewer are Yes?
So Top Guy gets the Yes and a large number of Maybe. Or is he a guy that gets mostly Yes?
“Can a top guy with top game get any woman he desires?”
Let’s set some constraints to that ‘any woman’ statement and define it as: any woman who’s
– Heterosexual
– Age appropriate (legal age and younger than you, or is in a set of conditions where this doesn’t matter)
– Tribe appropriate (she belongs to a tribe that is compatible with yours, belongs to no tribe, or is in a set of conditions where this doesn’t matter)
– Value appropriate (her social value is not x2 of yours, or it’s in an environment where this doesn’t matter)
So assuming we put some strings as in we’re all in the same location and grounded on the same social rules and same hierarchies:
The top guy can have them all.
Every. Single. One.
What does this mean? you go to a room, there’s X number of women on the room, and the top guy gets to choose from the fertile / available ones.
Do you know how the pretty girl in the room gets to pick? it’s even moreso for the top guy with top game. The intersexual competition in women is wilder. Women are hunger, thirstier, more desperate.
So what does that mean.
It means that if you’re top guy with top game you can go anywhere any time of the day and get any girl you like within reason (the lines above).
If you go to a context where these lines are blurred on purpose: bars where people get drunk to blur these lines, clubs or groups or hobbies or sports that have their own identities to create new bubbles, trips / travelers / activities done with the express intent of expanding or breaking these lines, tribes and bubbles, or then even DAYS of the month where the girls are on the hunt and the parameters get more flexible: that makes it potentially all of the girls. All of them. Potentially.
I use to bust Nash balls here because in normal Game you go out there collect 100 numbers then funnel them get 3 dates and then bang one chick then you go on a dry spell again.
Compared to that, if top guy goes out and gets a number (or no number) he bangs 3 chicks. Why?
Because top guy game is social game, it’s hierarchy based. It doesn’t start with the girl and ends with the girl, it’s not one on one, it’s ‘gaming the group’. Why?
Because it’s not something that you turn on and off to get to a specific result. It’s who you are. And wherever you go there are people. So game is how you interact. So you’re gaming the room. All the rooms. All the spaces. All the time. You’re keeping the pace. Leading the vibe. Setting the rules. And as a result to that you get respect, deferential treatment, aura of power. And a result of that you get boosted confidence, swagger, expanded space, etc. So when you see a girl you like and you say “hey”, in the first one or two seconds all of what I listed above is already communicated, she already ‘knows’, women are micro tuned to perceive top guy, and the only response they have to that, assuming they are heterosexual and fertile, is unrestrained horniness. The same thing you experience when you see a hot fertile woman with little clothing. Is your arousal something you can control? you can constrain it, but can you decide NOT to be aroused? so what if then this hot fertile woman looks at you, smiles at you, gets closer, and initiates conversation, while making sure you’re comfortable and not too intimidated by her obvious immense value? reverse that, then multiply it x10, because women are complete slaves to their bodies and emotions and all they want is to lose control.
Top guy can have everybody.
“Or is he exposed to the same conditions as all of us”
The reason most guys are put into these conditions is that women are making room for Top Guy.
“most girls are No, a few are Maybe, and even fewer are Yes?”
All girls are Yes, a few are maybe, some outliers are No. But the No girls are also Yeses, it’s only the specific conditions that change. Change the setup and they are yeses as well.
So does this mean that you can have Leonardo DiCaprio’s girlfriend? well:
– Are you in Hollywood?
– Are you in the same room?
– Are you tribe congruent? or, is your value easily understood in this setup?
– Is she is a sore spot in the relationship, and or is she the type of girl who cheats?
– When you are next to DiCaprio, does your body language communicates that your value is higher than his? do you expand or contract?
– If your personal flavor of personality compatible to hers?
So yes you can have her. Like many other men have in the past and will in the future. If you checkmark a bunch of IF.
Tyler responded better to this in the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leM-HWLgc5Q
>> that got me thinking, might want to try a little technique to calm her forebrain down. You mentioned the warm glow after sex – it might be a good idea to talk about that with her, to move her mind beyond the obstacle into a more comfortable spot. It’s like an end-around. I’m gonna put that in my pocket, too.
I like this idea, man. I know you’re into “mental technology,” and this is “pacing and leading.”
You pace where she is… and pace where she will be post-sex, as a way of leading her into it. Very NLP. I could see that working, if it wasn’t forced.
“The “no”, the LMR, can sometimes be a test to see if you can get her to surrender. Not a deliberate test, but a functional one. She doesn’t necessarily know in advance, or even moment to moment, ”
Yes – except it’s not LMR but all the resistances so far. If you experienced it ‘last minute’ then you rushed and escalated before she was ready and now she’s missing a piece of the puzzle to turn into a yes.
But yes it is about she expecting that you figure it out.
If you figure it out she’ll open, if not, she’ll walk.
And it’s usually not about pushing against the specific rejection, but finding the thing that she wants which is where the opening is.
And sometimes it is ‘specifically’ about wanting you to push against her rejection. So watch, if she gets more turned on when you push, that’s the path. But probably there’s something else that she’s hinting you at. They are always telling you how.
Toni Bentley’s memoir The Surrender explains why women need to be taken and penetrated and display LMR, and don’t really want a guy to change what he desires because of what they say, or what “they are always telling you how”
“I had admired that – he was not going to compromise himself for pussy, like so many men do. And I didn’t want to compromise a man with my pussy I wanted a man to be true to himself… while desperately wanting my pussy.”
“Domination – total and complete domination of my being – that is where I find freedom. I have become a pure vehicle for (him), no resistance. I can relinquish all power. I never knew how much power I had until I gave it all to him. No choice but surrender is surrender. I am his entirely, body, and soul. I relish my freedom.”
These quotes from her book are the reason why we are right, and you are wrong Yohami in thinking that LMR doesn’t exist and that women escalate on a man when they are wet (unless they’ve hit the wall and he’s rich so they want that money or fame, which comes from a logical state not a hot and bothered place).
I remember this quote I read from Alexander Lowen’s book Love and Orgasm:
“Women become sexually receptive when a man is sexually aggressive. That is the essence of female sexuality.”
That’s what we are, we are the sexual penetrators, that’s why our penises are on the outside. Women have a hidden vagina, so their sexual desire is kept inside and we are the ones to take them and penetrate them and turn them on through our sexual forwardness.
Go back and read the posts I wrote along this thread, you’re stuck on your own biases and are not getting it.
“you are wrong in thinking that LMR doesn’t exist”
Go back and read what I wrote.
The resistance is overcome by finding the Yes. Don’t push against rejection, get her to say yes. Your insistence in rejection means you’re a bottom guy. Shake it off.
“that women escalate on a man”
We’re not talking about women escalating on men: we’re talking about men escalating on a woman in a way that turns her on.
“money or fame”
Has nothing to do with money or fame. Top Guy means Alpha, dominant, aggressive, in power – which is attractive.
If the girl is giving you resistance, “last minute” or otherwise, then you’re not reading her well, you’re not escalating properly – which means more than you think. It means that there are another hundred girls who already rejected you because your approach is broken from the start – even the one on your bed is resisting you!
Wake up.
“Women become sexually receptive when a man is sexually aggressive. That is the essence of female sexuality.”
See how it says “sexually receptive” and not “sexually resistant”?
Wake up dude.
Your job is to make her sexually receptive. Receptive. Turn her into a YES GIRL.
For fuck sake.
“so their sexual desire”
Her sexual desire is receptive. If she’s not receptive you’re doing it wrong.
Got it?
“I have become a pure vehicle for (him), no resistance”
If you bother to read the stuff you share – see how it says NO resistance?
Dude, there is a principle of communication, which says:
“the response is the measurement to the effectiveness of your communication.”
Since you say I did not understand you, you as the communicator are responsible for communicating more clearly.
So, next time, make sure to write what you mean clearly so that your communication becomes effective, then people will respond to you in the ways you expect without miscommunication.
I am assuming here that I misunderstood you. Because you seem to contract yourself a lot by saying something then qualifying it incessantly whenever anybody finds fault in it.
Still, I am a Top Guy, so I take 100% responsibility even for things I have no control over. And so if I misunderstood, here was some advice: if people mis-interpret what you say, that is the feedback that tells you that you did not communicate clearly.
In all cases, all we are saying is girls will give LMR until they surrender completely to you. LMR is a type of shit test, the ultimate shit test before sex, that is all.
We never said women do not surrender or resist all the time. All that we said is LMR is not a reflection of how Top Guy you are, it’s a natural part of the process.
So I guess your latest qualification is that LMR exists but it should be super brief because we’re continually adjusting to find openings in her resistance so it seems like she isn’t resisting unless resistance is what turns her on.
Still, a foundational concept of pickup is when a girl says No, it means Not Yet. So you will get resistance and often there is not way through it except to wait a bit then do the same exact thing again. It doesn’t mean the action was “wrong”, it means you were man enough to test and took the feedback then adapted by letting some more time pass.
Are you Sasha / Aleksander by chance?
To the rest of your points, re-read the stuff I wrote along the post, it’ll be good for you. Cheers.
I don’t know who Sasha / Aleksander is. I am not any of the one / two people mentioned.
I am glad we had this discussion. Now I got you to clarify your point further, and I hope you will aim to always clarify what you mean. That will be useful to all those who will read your comments too, to get your point easily. :-)
this LMR stuff is FASCINATING because it is the continuation of yohami’s “walls/resistance/puzzle” concepts.
this was a great conversation. good job, both of you. i am learning.
ps. my thoughts: yohami is very zen. i think a bit of LMR resistance is not a bad thing — especialy for beginners and intermediates — but i agree, it means that you didn’t perfectly unlock her, and that you could have done better.
only the most advanced zen PUA would unlock every girl perfectly without LMR.
It’s two things
1) LMR is not LM, just R
2) The way to solve all the R’s is the same, there’s nothing special about LM.
Facing resistance means you’re moving too ahead, didn’t ramp well, or presented your value in the wrong way, or she wants something that she’s not getting, etc. There’s a particular setup when adding more pressure is the right move (like when you told skinny girl to drop the shit and come inside of your building), and there are other ways when you just need to keep elevating the temperature (like in the story nash linked below, where the girl just needed to be fingered some).
But it’s not a WALL, it’s not actual ‘resistance’, and the solution for all is not ‘penetrate her resistance’ or ‘bedroom battles’ etc. Instead of the bedroom battle, tussle etc figure if you need to push, or need to elevate the temperature: pay attention to what she responds to.
So there’s nothing specific about the LMR, it’s just screening.
Specially if she went to your place and you’re fondling around. Any resistance is really more yours than hers. Like in the story Nash linked, the guy tried the same move twice and assumed he’d lost – the move was to swich moves and do foreplay.
So the point is that it’s not that resistance is normal and what you have to do is smash against it.
That will make you lose all the girls, minus a couple you’ll wish you hadn’t landed.
To address something you pointed at before:
“in the street, you’re not the Rockstar […] you’re just a man”
No. Who you are is carried with you everywhere.
What you meant is that even if you’re famous in a group, when you’re in a place where these hierarchies are not apparent, or don’t matter because the tribes are intermixed, then every mans value is reset to the same level and all the rules are applied uniformly. Level playing field.
Except not.
– Because nobody knows you in the street, the base assumption is that any stranger is potentially a threat, so walls are up, girls are more guarded, so contrasts, superficial traits, and tribe identifiers and low denominators matter MORE: your clothing, body posture, tone etc.
To take a case example: if you’re a rockstar, or say, Justin biever and you go to the street, dressing like Bieber with tattoos and shit, and six packs, and entitlement, and relaxed, and then say ‘hey baby, you look nice who are you’.
:-D
My guess is that the reason you’re gaming during day (and not at other times or setups) is you want to avoid these guys. It’s not because it’s a level playing field, is that you think you’re not competing against the top guys there. The issue is that all these women are still looking for the Top Guy, and got dressed for one, are walking towards one, or are coming from the bed of one, or are texting one, or are missing one, or daydreaming of one. The filtering is always on, so it’s the competition. As a result you have to DHV, ‘demonstrate high value’, but what is high value? top guy. You have to demonstrate quickly you’re her best option, you’re the top guy, in a short rushed window, and you’re actually there because you’re not top guy and don’t want to be in the presence of one and are avoiding competition.
:-D
But how you demonstrate high value? Nash shows his stickers eventually and Riv talks photography. Then you have your fashion style and mannerisms and stuff. Or if you’re more beta you try to signal that you belong to HER tribe, bringing up how you’re familiar with her culture and how you can fit in HER world.
Watch RSDMax for good daygame btw. Todd is good too. Max has way better vibe, Todd knows more what he’s doing .
Looking back – the first thing I did to reinvent myself was to get better clothing, make sure it matched well, change my body posture, make myself more relaxed, but loader, and be aware of my social space (got a bunch of kino/ body stuff from pickup 101). The first thing I noticed was how people were talking to me like I was a famous person on the street. I’d say hi or ask for the time or something, people would look at me for half a second and change their tone and facial expression immediately. Girls would smile. Old people would be nicer. Guys would be more friendly. And this when I didn’t know wtf I was doing.
Going forward about a year – the morning after I had my first threesome I went out to buy cigarettes, without showering, dressed like I had an accident, still with hangover and a little drunk, going back on my memories of the night, and looking around I saw that every. fucking. girl. everywhere. was staring at me as I passed by with that hungry look. The girls on the buses and cars passing by, the girls on the street, the girl who sold me the cigs. Not the clothing, not the hair, not the dialogue, not the approach. I was a highly valued man and had just banged two chicks. And on a primordial level they all KNEW. And they wanted it.
Level playing field? no.
You say hi and they all know. There’s nowhere to hide.
I got married, I have two girls, I live in a small town in the mountains. I don’t party and don’t go out. I got fat. Still I take a train, I go to another capital city and walk the streets, I do shopping, I go to the pool. And I can do nothing and just count the time before all the girls are giving me ‘these eyes’. A bunch of girls together and I look at one, then look somewhere else, look again, and it’s there, the hunger? why? body language, tone, attitude, demeanor, all the things they are wired to pick on, all the things they can’t do anything about but to get turned on. So I go to the store and buy flowers for my wife, with one of my kids on my shoulder, spend some time comparing flowers, call the girl who works at the shop, and there are all these micro games happening, from the tone of voice when I call her, to the lapse of time that we look at each other, or when I ask her to hold the flowers, and how the situation turns funny, and she gets in this mini tribe of us 3 with she my kid and I, and the flowers and the money being exchanged, and then THAT specific moment when she holds my sight for just one more second than necessary and her face is serious, her stare deep, and all the possible stories are being narrated on her mind, and I think “so she wants me to fuck her, but she knows Im married and have kids, girls have no morals” then I smile and say ‘bye’ and she replies “bye” with a lower, more accommodating, inviting, seducing voice. Or going to a meeting and busting some girls balls and making a joke then talking to somebody, and the trail of stares, the trail of lust following around, growing, like they are pending debts, like they are mouths to feed. And all while this is going on, the girls around, like a chorus, the girls because they are all connected and they share all this information at unison (look at how they scream when they see a famous girl, the scream is a signal to the other girls, it’s their shared hunger, they hunt in groups, they pinch and touch each other, make each other awake, to as a group lure the man they want) – all the girls sighting around, making themselves horny, so the whole thing is already fertile ground for ‘pickup’ before I even said a word to them, because they saw me, they saw that other girl, and they know, ‘there goes that guy’.
Level playing field? give me a break :-)
They all know. You can’t beat biology and our intrinsic hierarchy structures, and all the things that are being communicated just by you there breathing, walking, talking and being. Women’s sexual drive is hypergamy. ‘Be’ top guy, you get them all. Now add “Game” and know what you’re doing. Now add actual “social proof” aka be the king of something you’e actually good at and like, or “make a life that you actually want”, make a world that you actually want to live in, put that together. Make the Game real.
All the cards flip.
Yohami the kind of Top guy you describe here, what i have noticed is girls will try to lock him down instead of using such high caliber just for sex..
Robin – yes they try very quickly. Sometimes after the first one night stand even. I got love letters after one night stands. Which is ridiculous. Kind of heart breaking if you look at it from the beta frame.
https://sevendaygame.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/lay-report-polish-erasmus-student/
Excellent story ^ here from a cool and interesting daygamer. That guy is on the verge of figuring something out, and it’s beautiful to watch.
Go Seven. Good story… and a great example of the complexities of “LMR.” Or what looks like LMR. And the role we play in “creating” or perpetuating LMR. This is an amazing dance we do. I wish I had read this before I wrote my post, or I would have worked in examples from his LR.
Good read.
“Then she took her pantie and said that she just needed a lot of foreplay. ”
Ahem! bouncing against invisible walls it is :-)
>>Instead of the bedroom battle, tussle etc figure if you need to push, or need to elevate the temperature: pay attention to what she responds to.
This reminds me of how Joseph Riggio handles influencing audiences, he explains it in other words but pay attention and you’ll see he is talking about the same thing you’re talking about here:
Chulo,
LOL when I read what you cite from GLL:
>>Never has myself OR ANY of my friends that actually bang a lot of hot girls had ANY situations where a girl takes us home, undresses us and “fucks us silly.” It DOESN’T HAPPEN. If it ever did, it would happen one time in your entire life and you would need to be amazingly good-looking and the chick would have to older than you.“
I can confirm that. When I was young, in my late teens and early twenties or three decades ago, I apparently was good looking, to the extent I got tons of IOIs but wouldn‘t read them as such, as an invitation for action as a man. I probably would have only understood the IOI if she had pulled me in and kissed pro-actively.
Which of course never happened.
Not even with the older (girls) women. I recall at least four times I got cougared. Two occasions lead to sex, notch 1 and 3 (http://dayga.me/flags), in the other two I chickened out (one was the blond, slim, stripper-type ex-GF of the owner of a Zurich high end night club who celebrated her 40th birthday and asked me 23yo whether I wanted to come upstairs, to the owners floor and have some coke and sex with her. Of course, I did… shit in my pants and refused the outspoken offer nervously. But at least I’m not the only damn idiot pussy around: https://www.goodlookingloser.com/more/archive/entry/beating-social-anxiety// scroll down to the „So how did I get comfortable in the social scene?“ headline—the two cheerleaders).
The point is (if I can trust my memory after all the years): all of the four made their advance or offer VERBALLY and very clearly so that even the biggest chode would get the message and act. Even back then the (man) boy had to escalate physically, they just cut short the calibration/trial and error phase.
I wonder if those four cougars, even though attractive AND proactive realized that getting to sex is a numbers game and wrote a post or two about it :))
Oh man, I’ve grown up in the same boat or even worse. I got “overt proposals” a number of times while younger, and I got so nervous I’d run away.
I’ve come a looooong way since then. Still not perfect, we’re all work in progress and can do much much better. It’s the human condition, we’re born to keep on improving. If we’d arrive, that would be the end of our story, we’d stagnate and wither.
[…] Paul Janka’s street hustling and escalation. It’s a great essay. I’m not as aggressive as that guy, at least not in the approach and initial encounter. Maybe I’ve been doing it wrong. […]
I agree with Yohami. If you’re getting LMR regularly then you’re doing something wrong earlier on. Setting the wrong frame, not being congruent with someone who gets it.
I guess you agree with Rollo too:
https://therationalmale.com/2014/10/27/last-minute-resistance/
>> Women who have a genuine interest in a guy, rarely confuse that guy with “mixed messages
>>I’ve never been an advocate for pushing past last minute resistance with a woman.
>>Something else was mitigating genuine desire and I knew it wouldn’t be the kind of sex I wanted to have, or couldn’t already have had a better experience with another plate I was spinning at the time.
> Girls that say, “no, no, no,” over and over (I have seen that many, many times), often on their way to true and juicy “yes” moments later (I have seen that as well).
> How do you know when “no” means “no?” Or when “no” means “maybe… but not tonight.” Or when it means “maybe, but it depends on what you do next” (this is super common). Or when “no” means “yes,” but only for guys that get it.
This is where ropes, restraints, handcuffs, oral sex, and teasing can, when used well and together, overcome LMR.
Which is yet another reason to control the logistics and venue.
A lot of women praise dominance. That’s part of the reason guys are confused. They listen to what women say instead of paying attention to what they do and how they do it.
Women want things to “just happen.” So it… just happened! Wow! It just happened that you had cuffs and restraints already set up and ready to go.
another killer post, nash.
“If you act from the ‘come here’ higher position, she still has the option to not go there, to do something else, to leave, it’s always her choice. But it’s never ‘I’m gonna keep pushing and you tell me where to stop’ (bottom guy), but ‘I’m having a party here, come’ and if she doesn’t that’s her problem (top guy).”
— Yohami
FINDING THE GOLD NUGGETS
But then Yohami must be very good looking to get enough Yes girls to have a happy sex life just with them.
So I am thinking: Yohami is like Jabba then, getting a ton of Yes girls and only dealing with those. But like Krauser says: Real game is in dealing with Maybe girls.
You can see in this video, basically what we are all talking about is whether Yes/Maybe/No girls exist, or whether it’s just Yes/No girls, because Yes girls = no resistance, and whether Maybe girls are a good thing (some resistance) or we should only get Yes girls or No girls otherwise we are bad players.
Krauser talks about the difference between him and Jabba here, how Jabba gets tons of Yes girls but Krauser gets mostly Maybe girls and has to actually play the game rather than passively attract them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDpMgFO9Dmg
So this is an epiphany to me! Yohami is talking without realizing it about his life where his attractiveness gets him so many Yes girls that he thinks that is standard for most men.
But nope, we are “common mortals”, we get Yes girls sometimes, but mostly No girls and we play the game at the Maybe girls getting through their resistance to get that soft and sweet pussy.
chulo, that’s sort of what i used to think too for a while, but more recently i’ve seen him read people really well just from photos — people that i know in real life that i’ve sent him pictures of — and i’ve also seen how he has re-written my texts to girls — and i’ve also seen his great work helping nash — so i don’t think that anymore!
yohami has deep, deep insight and sensitivity to humans in general, and women in particular, and even though he’s not right on everything — i’m still a HUGE believer in #daygame, which yohami hates, for example — i am back to being a reborn-again pupil of the zen master.
Okay then. Still, I enjoyed the friendly discussion with Yohami, and I’m sure many people benefited from us both clarifying things out. :-)
Yohami, just wondering, if you’re a Zen Master seducer, I am genuinely curious, what do you focus on with the girls?
Are you able to sense and read how the girl is feeling moment to moment?
I mean, do you connect to her on an emotional level, then test things out and see what moves her emotions in the right way, you double down on it, and what gives her a slight discomfort you stop?
So, is this something “beyond technique”, it’s more about having 100% empathy for the girl?
“what do you focus on with the girls?”
First I focus on if I find her attractive, and Im trying to figure out if she’s a good fuck or not, is she worth my time, is she fun, does she have problems.
“Are you able to sense and read how the girl is feeling moment to moment?”
Yes, I can tell all her emotions, body language, and how things fight each other and all the things being communicated and subcommunicated. I can tell what kind of men she likes, which things she believes, how stupid or smart she is, general vibe, childhood issues, etc, it’s a ray scan.
“I mean, do you connect to her on an emotional level,”
Everything for a girl is emotional, but, no.
The connection is that Im a top guy and I have a great dick and a lot of value, and I probably want to fuck her brains out. So it’s tease / storytelling / roleplaying / flirting / making her laugh / finding the sweet spots / escalating. It’s routinely the same with every girl, just the locations change, just a little.
Because the common framework is they all want, at the base, ‘the same guy’, and girls are like water and they are less attached to their own preferences than they are to the hunger and the eternal hunt of the toppest guy they can get. Which is me.
“and what gives her a slight discomfort you stop?”
Not necessarily. Does she likes the discomfort? do I like it? is she expressing discomfort as a shit test to see if Im standing on my ground?
The rule is that whenever it’s about you being top man or bottom man, you double down on top man.
Case reference while teaching some guy nicknamed penguin – some chick says she doesn’t drink alcohol. I bust that and say she’s boooring. She gets offended, I double down, say I already bought a bottle of wine to get romantic and that she’ll have none, she ends up saying she drinks wine = compliance. So what is the discomfort really about? what’s behind it?
That’s why I say pay attention.
But the rules are base – top guy first, calibration second. If you’re prompted to calibrate against being top guy, it’s a trap.
The links Nash found are good
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/tyo-1st-date-jafrica/
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/unapproachable-korean-actress/#comment-1908
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/dinner-dates-fake-boobs-calibration-yohamis-ramp/
“I mean, do you connect to her on an emotional level”
I can’t even process what ‘connecting to her on an emotional level’ means here. We’re in a courtship screening, she wants sex, so do I. What do you mean with emotional connection? because it brings images of me rubbing her back, listening to her sad stories, being a good boy for her, connecting to the depths of her soul, maybe bringing my white knight armor. That’s what I hear.
When the actual thing is teasing, making her laugh, touching her, displaying my value, all that simulation-of-sexual-relationship that happens when you’re getting to know each other, just a little. But all of that is ‘highly emotional’, she’s spiking, shining, her desire is growing.
I simply means your mirror neurons are attunes to her emotions to the level where you can almost feel what she is feeling at each moment.
[…] nash writes: […]
right on time, a great field report on LMR!
https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355
https://twitter.com/alpharivelino/status/952392381227257856
Aziz is a great example of a guy that has status, but hasn’t quite mastered game yet. The dangerous part about having status is that your past missteps can be more easily brought about in the public light.
EVERY guy needs to learn game.
this LMR stuff is really helping me. something is clicking for me. my current thoughts:
she wants everything to feel magical. in her ideal world, she gets swept off her feet, and sex just happens. the perfect analogy is music and dancing. she wants to feel a beautiful melody, and have him lead her on a beautiful dance (and he has to play the instrument too).
if he plays a wrong note, if he trips up with his feet — ugh, that breaks the spell.
hitting that wrong note is when he escalates too quickly and she has to put up a wall. she hates that feeling. that’s the feeling of NOT being with a masterful dancer, but with an amateur — and that pisses her off because she wants a high value top guy, not a bottom guy, and if she’s with a bottom guy, then she’s a loser too — so that really kills the magic.
hitting that wrong note is when he does anything wrong, in fact. he needs to play her violin like a master, from A to C to S, through all three M3 stages. if he does this — if he unlucks her puzzle, using THE RAMP, by doubling down, and not pushing against resistance — then she can clearly see that he his a TOP GUY and so she instinctively gives him her pussy, which is what she is dying to do. she desperately wants top guy sperm! it’s what she was put on this earth to chase and acquire.
a clear signal of a bottom guy is a guy who chases her too hard, who is too needy, who applies to much pressure. he is not a master violin player. that kills the magic.
a clear signal of a top guy is a guy who makes everything feel so smooth and effortless. he doesn’t chase her, she is just effortlessly drawn to him. she comes to him.
she comes to him. he INVITES her to come to him, and so she does.
a few examples:
-he invites her to come with him to do something cool.
-he pulls her in for a kiss, he doesn’t lean in (tom’s “floppy” test works perfectly with this.)
-he whips out his cock and invites her to come to him and suck it, he doesn’t try to penetrate her pussy with his finger. (the whip it out technique!)
so there you go.
any time you feel resistance, it means you didn’t play the right tune.
>>if he unlucks her puzzle, using THE RAMP, by doubling down, and not pushing against resistance
Riv, could you please explain with your words your own understanding of the Puzzle, the Ramp and the Wall?
>> could you please explain with your words your own understanding of the Puzzle, the Ramp and the Wall?
Chulo… I’ll try to track some of this down for you. We’ve been trying to make sense out of Yohami for a long, long time. And it’s us, not him.
I agree with you, Yohami is not “easy to understand for a 6 year old.” But 6 year olds don’t slay pussy either. This is 1% game he is pointing to.
Give Yohami’s concept’s time. Check the comment I said above about “you=accelerator, she=brake… but never has to use it). That is very close to his main point about resistance. There is no resistance, because of the sensitivity of his driving (which is based on ref ex).
^ That is the difference between Janka / Yohami. They both drive fast. But Janka drives recklessly. Some girls like that, which is cool. Those are the girls that fuck him, when he pushes. Yohami is driving fast, but never “too fast,” she stays in excitement, not in “aversion.”
It’s not aggressive vs passive. Both are a type of aggressive. Yohami just keeps her from ever having to say, “this is too fast, you don’t understand me, you’re not Top Driver, I want out.”
Of course making her “want out” is not good game. Yohami is talking about not only nuance WITHIN a given technique, but about testing BETWEEN technique (physical/psychological/etc) and then…
“Give her more of what she wants… less of what she doesn’t want.”
If that sounds insulting simple, I agree with you. I hated that line, for months. I’d walk around saying it in a stupid voice… “Meh meh meh… less of what she doesn’t want… meh meh meh… duh!”
That line haunted me until I listen a little harder. Until I unlocked a couple more pieces. I’m barely getting in the door now…
That’s why it took me so long to really hear where Yohami is going.
You sound just like me. I fought with Yohami for months… but when I started listening… I started having a better time.
(The only debate I ever won w/ Yohami was about the potential of street game… every other time, he was right. 1000 arguments… I won exactly one. Now I listen.)
I know it sounds insulting sometimes…but it’s a fucking gift what he is doing for us here. I get that you really study, that you are open, that you are very smart guy. It’s just that this stuff is very hard to hear. A seducers “dog whistle.”
Give Yohami a second. The Sensei. YMMV, but for me… it’s like that.
I could never haven’t understood Yohami without STUDYING everyone else (and I have, you have too, I like that about you), and without TONS OF FIELD TIME (you have it to), but then… I had only barely paid admission to the next round of learning from this guy.
This is subtle shit. Hard to hear. And hard to implement. Until we do (I presume), and then… Oh! I get it. Wow. I get it. Wow.
^ This is where I want to go… I’m starting to get what he’s saying. I’ve been “unpacking” Yohami for over a year now.
And I am grateful. Riv’s comment about what Yohami can see in just a picture of someone is dead-on accurate in my view. Yohami is not your average voice.
Yohami’s RAMP:
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/tyo-1st-date-jafrica/
^ This was when I first started to “see it.” It took a combination of Tyler and Yohami to get me to see it… and I still can’t really do it… but now I see the moments all the time.
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/unapproachable-korean-actress/#comment-1908
The cheese sandwich bit. And it’s NOT THE FUCKING LINES… of course. It’s the “set up” function of the ramp that is important.
— http://www.daysofgame.com/dates/dinner-dates-fake-boobs-calibration-yohamis-ramp/
Nash, could you please write about the difference in how women treated you when you were the attractive good guy vs now as the bad boy?
You said you had female attention before but always wanted the “bad boy” kind of attention.
How is the experience of being attractive to women different from then to now?
According to Tyler:
>During the course of the
>pickup and relationship, the
>chick will try to RESIST by
>intentionally breaking HER OWN
>STATE. It’s almost hard to
>believe that they even enjoy
>sex as much as us, when they
>do shit like this.. But
>really, they just don’t want
>to get sexed by losers,
So even when you do everything right, you may experience resistance with the girl just because she internally will attempt to break her own state and resist.
Check the links I put above… Tyler, saying what Yohami is saying. The JAFRICA post.
…………………..
SOMETHING ELSE:
“From there what you are doing is adding some social calibration into the mix. Being aware of when she is comfortable and when she’s not. Which BTW, when you do this, they’re going to be very comfortable.
“You want to be aware of where she is at… that is just simple social awareness. When you tap her, does she tap you back. If you crack some jokes is she enjoying it? Are her eyes big? Is she looking deep in your eyes? Is she receptive? If the girl is unreceptive, ‘nice meeting you,’ and you back off.”
“I am huge on apologizing, and backing off. Backing off and apologizing is a vital component of my success with women. You’re going to walk up and create attraction with the girl. At some point, maybe you go to try to take her hand. If she gets even 1% uncomfortable, and you ‘oh sorry, anyway…’ and you keep being you. Later, you go to take you hand, and she likes it, because you showed her, that you are aware of her space.”
— TYLER from HOTSEAT
^ All of this is Tyler being careful. Careful is not the point. Ignore the “apologizing bits… that is about bar pickup, not the bedroom. But this is close to what Yohami is talking about, I believe.
Notice that “If she gets even 1% uncomfortable,” that is the level of the read here. It’s not ON/OFF. It’s “1%” adjustments. Janka presents it as ON/OFF… COOL GUY vs PUSSY… but I bet a lot of the time, in practice, Janka is actually more subtle than that.
Imagine what Tyler is saying her,e but proactive and cool. Not about damage control, but about seduction and escalation.
“Which BTW, when you do this, they’re going to be very comfortable.”
^ This is close, but Yohami is not saying “make her comfortable.” He is saying, in tiny increments… “give her more of what she wants, and less of what she doesn’t want.” Whatever that might be.
This is gauging her turn on. If she is turned on by being uncomfortable, give her that… that is what I was saying about me “scaring” Miss Thick.
But if she is turned on by being comfortable… I want to, in small increments, watch for what is making her comfortable/turned on, give her more. If I see her start to flinch, I don’t give her more of that to prove I’m a badass that won’t compromise… I “swing my dick” (=testing, but a more “masculine” testing, displaying value, doing things you like, as a player), try something else, watch for what turns her on… “give her more” of that.
…………………
Another piece of this is… it’s not just “be calibrated.” Of course. Endlessly calibrated, but more than that.
It’s calibrated + aggressive + experienced + an expert interpreter of what you’re seeing. And probably even more.
This is part of why this is hard to “take in.” 6 year olds will never get this. This is proper PHD stuff.
You need a lot of experience in all of these areas to run the kind of game Yohami is talking about.
If she “never has to use the brake,” because you never put her in that position, but you accomplish that without ever asking her what she wants (which she doesn’t know)… it’s by calibration, and interpretation of what you are reading in her.. comparing that to your ref experiences… quickly cross-checking (on the fly) your psychological DB of what that could mean… then calibrating again… all from a place of cocky/confident… never half stepping… it’s care, not “careful,”… then, you see, you get it.
It’s easy.
: ]
Don’t you get it? Just “give her more of what she wants? And less of what she doesn’t want.”
See, simple.
Well a 6 year old kid would understand all of this – if he’s a top kid and not a bottom kid :-)
Even at 6 years old kids are already arranged in cool kids vs non-cool kids, and all the dynamics are there and are brutal.
The mindfuck with learning game is how to teach the non-cool kid to act like a cool kid, on the starting premise that the non-cool kid wants the prizes of the cool kid without actually having to become cool.
“without actually having to become cool” is the whole problem. The data is simple.
Girls want the cool kids. The situational social state, the resources, the attention, the easines, the confidence, the competition with other girls, the chit chat, rumors, stories, the volume, the demands, the drama and the back and forths, the love EVERYTHING of it, every inch. Even the non-cool girls want it.
The starting point of the non-cool kid is resent men, value gap, sexual frustration, and all he knows is the rejection he gets from the girls, and the world. His feedback loop with reality reinforces this notion.
So you can add some of the cool flavors but as long as that is the base frame reference and that’s your feedback loop, you’re on an uphill battle against yourself, and it will sabbotage the building you do on top of it, and mix in with the skills you’re acquiring otherwise.
Because the fundamental stone that cements everything else is that you are the value. You and all your expressions are the value. The truth about you is you’re the value. You’re the cool kid on the room – and every girl out there would kill to spend 5 minutes with you.
When you attempt to internalize that – you’ll hear the internal complaints, dissonances, pain. THAT is what you have to go after. That’s the real work. All the pussy chasing is a distraction to validate the non-cool loser, to put lipstick on a pig.
At the core, all of this is a self esteem game.
And the girls want the high self esteem guy.
So the ‘paradox’.
The more you’re able to switch to the center, and embrace your masculinity and grow your balls and boldness, and learn to be dominant and decisive and set your boundaries and win your battles – the more ‘cool’ you are, as an adult man, the less you care about the validation of others (because you also know how to get it) etc.
—–
Also to do the Game dance well you need a lot of experience with women and their nature, to balance out the naive male / biological illusions that make you want to see women as defenseless, agenda-free, pure pristine flawless princesses. To that you need to see what they are like when they are not ‘resisting’ but ‘offering’, you need to look at them from the center of the value, and not from the ouside, or, you have to get more experienced at how they are, in general, in their base nature, when they are looking at you because they want something, and all the shapes they adopt to hunt you down. You need volume of that, specially if you had volume of just watching them pass on you, to break your current reality. That’s why I try to sell on the idea that every beta should get a contextual alpha job or put himself in situations where girls are competing for your attention. If you get enough exposure that should break the spell.
>>The mindfuck with learning game is how to teach the non-cool kid to act like a cool kid, on the starting premise that the non-cool kid wants the prizes of the cool kid without actually having to become cool.
This reminds me of what Mr. M said from Love System’s Social Circle Mastery that the biggest problem with PUAs is they develop alpha guy behaviors without ever developing the substance. He was talking about how this wouldn’t work in building a social circle because you’re giving the impression of value without actually adding any actual value to the group, so you’ll never stay cool in it for long.
“He is saying, in tiny increments… ”
Not so tiny. When you see what works, you ‘double down’ which can actually be a triple down or tenth multiplier, as long as it keeps going. Then you MUST stop and let it break. The pause is what actually solidifies the new state.
You don’t go ‘careful to not hit a wall’, but you’re panning and talking and trying and having fun until you find a spark, or a sweet spot, or her eyes lit, or she touches you, or whatever, then you INCREASE it and make it over the top with a bigger move in that particular spot. And if that works and she’s like flying, then you make another move to push it higher. That is ‘accelerating and escalating with no resistance’ and is ‘sweeping her off her feet’. For her this is like flying, she lets go of control to experience this more.
Then you take a break to let the above be the new normal.
Then you do it again.
So it’s not tiny as in being careful and asking for directions. It’s that you are doing little things and then do big things. It’s the tease and the move, or the ramp before the move. The ramps are smaller than the actual move. You saw that somewhere else with the “come here” “kiss” “let’s go” it’s always going up.
Depending on the girl it may take many different shapes but as a progression it’s always the same and same end goal.
* stop and let it [BREATH].
not break
Yohami what do you think about this? I feel it is somewhat in some way related to what you’re saying:
http://www.lucaswest.com/mvgko903457809354frj/RapportReport.pdf
Thanks for the link – the writing is a little convoluted but I agree in general. The congruence thing is key.
Talking of rapport, with girls is more attractive to break rapport instead of chasing rapport, but you probably know that
[…] great comment by nash, on his blog: […]
for context, i wanted to add that yohami has made some big moves in his real life to become a high value man. he is an entrpreneur with a successful software company, he was living in a lux apartment and throwing big parties, he was making music and playing concerts — what else did you do yohami?, i think you said you did acting too? — i think this is important because it’s much easier to give off a TOP GUY vibe when you actually have real substance to back it up.
most men who want to learn game don’t have all this value and substance, which is part of the problem. it’s not the *entire* problem, because as we all know, you can be a man with a lot of money, fame, substance, value, etc — and still have a weak beta core.
so yes, the top guy mindset is HUGE, but it’s especially huge when you combine it with a top guy lifestyle.
i have had this debate before with yohami, he argues that the top guy mindset creates the top guy lifestyle, and that if everything was taken from everybody, and we all had to start from zero again, all the same top guys would get to the top of the pyramid again, because it’s their mindset that takes them there.
i still love the mystery method for beginners and even intermediates. it’s a clear, beautiful structure that helps a man get to know a women with simple stages, steps, and strategies. and it works.
now, i am definitely beginning to believe that to jump from intermediate to advanced, you gotta unlearn a lot of the stuff you have learned. i believe that. todd said something similar too. and that’s what i am trying to do.
i am also working on becoming a more intriguing, interesting high value man through my art, my photography, and i am also writing poetry now and reading it at open mics. and working on writing flash fiction. i am working to position myself as THE EMOTIONAL ARTIST who feels so much in life — and draw in girls who want that guy for a while, or for longer.
i was actually working on a “four pillar model” to become the best top guy you can become:
1. ability to cold approach
2. deep redpill understanding of women
3. social proof and connnections
4. personal value, skills, talents manifested in the real world
you gotta work on all four!
>> most men who want to learn game don’t have all this value and substance, which is part of the problem.
That’s because the guys with value in substance don’t have to learn game. They have pussy handed to them :-)
I joined some of the RSD Inner Circle groups and can only shake my head. These guys, these… kids have zero value. They would do better to build themselves up rather than spam approaching.
Of course, as we see with Aziz Ansari, even high value men need game.
I asked the most beautiful girl I know today: “What is attractive to you in a man.” and she actually gave me an insightful answer, she said:
“I like a man who doesn’t give up, even if I don’t accept. A man who doesn’t give up is a strong man, I like to be with a man who makes me feel protected. What I hate is a man who is begging me, that is unattractive.”
So to relate this to LMR, at our current level of understanding which isn’t where Yohami is because I guess he is at the next level, her words mean to me this:
You persist through LMR, that shows her that you desire her and that you’re a strong man who doesn’t give up. But your persistence comes from desire, not from neediness (begging for sex), so you desire her but you’re not a man with no options who cannot get sex and is finding a rare opportunity to get his dick wet.
I don’t think what she said contradicts what Yohami says, because to keep adapting to the girl so she doesn’t say No is to show persistence or as she said “not giving up”.
I guess I am also doing what Yohami talks about except not switching emotionally, physically, whatever. I go for this kiss, when I feel resistance, I touch her ass, when I feel resistance, I hug her and look deep into her eyes, or whatever. So I am not insisting on what doesn’t work, but in general I am doing physical escalation just going after whatever opening I see. I don’t stop to tell her a story or do something else. Maybe I should. I am also very good at reading body language and microexpressions, so if I see she is really uncomfortable, I don’t push it that much further but why the fuck would a girl get to my bed if she is going to get that uncomfortable anyway? I have been escalating since hello, so the physicality is already established as a normal part of the process.
I don’t always get to sex, but the girl always leaves feeling happy having gotten a great foreplay session where I went to the limit of what I could and I go further next time. I mean, with the Octopus style, the girl is getting touched all the time, so she knows when we’re in isolation she’ll be getting more touched. It’s not unexpected.
“I go for this kiss, when I feel resistance, I touch her ass, when I feel resistance, I hug her and look deep into her eyes, or whatever. So I am not insisting on what doesn’t work, but in general I am doing physical escalation just going after whatever opening I see. I don’t stop to tell her a story or do something else. Maybe I should. ”
good comment, chulo.
i think a KEY component to this discussion is getting from C to B to A, and what i mean is, from C level girls, to B level girls, to A level girls.
i remember a few years ago, i banged an older chick, i was about 40 and she was my age or maybe even a few years older. she was pretty and classy, she was very smart, but clearly, there was nothing for me to get too excited or nervous about. i met her through a friend, and i was going through a massive dry spell, so i thought, why not.
after meeting up for coffee, then next time we had dinner, then to my apartment, and she came in, and literally wandered towards the bedroom area, and just kind of stood there, looking at my bed. i pushed her on the bed, and like butter, i was quickly inside her pussy.
of course, this is nothing to brag about, and that’s my point. she was a C level girl for me. it’s all relative, of course. for a 65 year old dude, she would be a B level or maybe an A- level girl. you get my point.
(and this is related to yes/maybe/no girls, but not really.)
the way i see it:
C level girls are easy for me to get with my current value/skill set.
B level girls require work for me, and if i am not doing my best, they will give me some LMR, which i may be able to overcome, or not.
A level girls will *never* submit to my seduction attempts with my current value/skill set. if i somehow can get an A level girl into my apartment, or on my bed, her LMR will be so bad, her resistance will be so strong, that i will fail.
this is just a long way of saying, if we wanna get hotter girls, we gotta improve our game! you sound like a sold intermediate to me — nash and i are intermediates too — so if you wanna just to advanced level and get hotter A level girls, the way forward isn’t by finding “better ways to overcome LMR” from chicks. the way forward is by discovering better ways to unlock higher level girls with better overall game (and increasing your value, too of course).
or, are you already getting the A level girls you want to get?
You are right and very insightful, Riv :)
“You are right and very insightful, Riv :)”
thanks, my man. i am glad you discovered this blog. with you and me and nash and yohami, we are getting some good shit down on paper!
#camaraderie
#camaraderie !
“if i somehow can get an A level girl into my apartment, or on my bed, her LMR will be so bad, her resistance will be so strong, that i will fail.”
What should change so you stop feeling like this? what would it take.
“What should change so you stop feeling like this? what would it take.”
it would take much more fame and status and external validation as an artist.
i mean, for me, both baby E and skinny miriam are A- level girls, or maybe B+ level girls, but either way, they awe me and they inspire me, and i am incredibly happy and thrilled to bang them.
but i know that if i had a pure A level girl in my apartment, holy smokes, my knees would tremble, my hands would shake, i would be thinking, oh fuck, don’t blow it, don’t blow it, don’t blow it, don’t fuck up, stay calm, i can’t believe she likes me, i can’t believe i might fuck this girl, why does she like me, is this a joke, what the fuck, oh god please i just want to fuck her, please don’t let me screw this up, oh please god….
something like that.
i would need several viagra pills to hopefully get it up.
so yeah, i don’t have that entitlement mindset when it comes to A level girls.
Riv,
I know we are (still this year;) in the same boat…
…the boat of the forties. So I really like your stuff, but that you mention that
“…if i had a pure A level girl in my apartment, ….. i would need several viagra pills to hopefully get it up.”
THANK YOU! I’m not alone ;)
I had this with The Voluptuous House Maid https://socialparkour.com/2017/03/04/slovak-flag/ on D3 (ok, semipublic, in a hotel’s chimney salon) and on D4 when she laid totally naked and nicely shaved in front of me…
And I believe it has less to do with age but with sensitivity, so I’m really keen to see whether you can develop that game fork EMOTIONAL ARTIST GAME.
I recommend you read Sex at Dawn, it will help a lot with your sense of entitlement if you take some of the frames there (still thinking about whether I agree with everything in that polemic book or not, but their view on women sexuality is VERY helpful to us guys).
I never had an entitlement issue with top girls. I actually have a problem with C level and even B girls because if a girl doesn’t turn me on, I have to “force” myself, meaning I am not using my primal desire to motivate myself, I am doing it to enjoy some pussy.
Not enough A level girls in the streets where I am. Soon, I am taking my first Euro Jaunt soon and will deal with a lot more top level beauties.
But, overall, I am taking game as improving my communication and delivery of my value. Not as a guy who has no value and needs to “fake it”. So, when I truly desire a woman, I am moved into action, I don’t even game her, I do like Yad said in Daygame Blueprint “overwhelm the girl with your masculine energy”.
I guess my fame is Rake game. If I truly desire a woman, I feel tingles in my body, an overflow of energy and there is pure chemistry. I do not game anymore, I am moved by the desire and I almost just watch it happen. Then when she does put up resistance, I almost can’t stop myself then I watch her boundary melt away with the force of my forward desire. I don’t know how to explain it in other words, but my desire and love for her femininity makes her boundary just melt and she wants to please me even if she resisted to that at first. I can count 5 pussy-virgins whose anal virginity I took on the first or second date because of this.
The sad thing, I cannot control it. It’s either ON when I see a girl, or it is not, and it happens rarely, like once a week that I meet a girl like this.
Well, Daddy gotta get some new girls, so I go after a lot of girls who I am moderately into, I find them interesting and cute but they do not move me on that primal level. Then, my focus is on improving my game. I guess that reduces my success with them.
I wish I could make myself like Zan feel that about all women, even ugly and so-so ones. I need better frames, like GLL talks about finding one thing you are really attracted to in a girl and focus all your attention just on that to amplify you attraction to her.
Ok, let me not bind myself with my language: Up until this point I have had only a few girls that I felt primal unbridled desire for, but from now on I claim my ability to find chemistry and attraction in all women in a way where I can let that primal desire out, even on girls I would have considered not a top girl before.
[…] from nash’s blog: […]
Nash, is this one now the most commented post in the history of this blog, or what? I think so, lol.
I guess you better turn this blog into a forum, a lot of value in the comments around here, and might focus it more on the comments by making it a forum place for people to exchange ideas.
It is. Your comments are part of the gold here. Thanks for being here, man.
A daygamers or “thinkers” type forum would be incredible. So many unintelligent, uninspiring guys in the community.
The only forums I know of are Good Looking Loser and Roosh and they both have many issues.
Ok, thinking about this for a while, I want to make sure we don’t take Yohami’s ideas about Top Guy to a threshold that is toxic.
I believe in the metaphysical notion of Impermanence (It’s a Buddhist word, that things are always changing, nothing is constant in life except change, including in our case change in the results you can get), and the statistical notion of Randomness (including the fact you can do the same thing and get a streak of bad results, and other times doing the same thing you’ll get a streak of good results), and the fact that we’re dealing with other human beings, and human beings are fickle as fuck and are not predictable, they’re more a mass of randomness walking about than a truly knowable thing.
So, let’s not expect perfection like Yohami says. Even though Yohami is talking about an ideal, let’s not expect to not make mistakes. Going for perfection cripples you, shoves you in your head, and will repulse women.
The healthy lens to see this is: Don’t be a douchebag who doesn’t care about what the woman wants. If you do something that doesn’t work, say sorry (like Tyler said in HotSeat at Home “I say sorry all the time”, which shows he also does cross boundaries while he’s doing his Top Guy adapt-to-girl game), do something else, and if something works, double down on it (although a human need is variety, so in my view doing too much of something good becomes boring to the girl after a while. First and foremost, women want a variety of emotions, including negative emotions like discomfort).
Again, this boils down to attraction switches, and how they all relate to pre-selection:
* What Yohami is advocating triggers the attraction switch of pre-selection by showing you have SO MUCH experience with women that you’re a smooth player now.
* What I do, which is melting the girl’s barrier away through persistence and pure desire (of course, keeping it a good experience, no force is implied here) triggers the attraction switch of preselection in three ways: 1/ I am a man who goes for what he wants, so I am more likely to have gone for and gotten other women, and 2/ I am comfortable with a woman’s discomfort which shows I have been there before, 3/ I do not mind losing her, so I am not scared of trespassing her boundaries, because I have options and I can get any other girl.
Like Fader said in his Frame Control video, there are many attraction switches, you do not have to use them all. Use the ones that match your personality, they all relate to preselection anyway.
Still, again to my first point, expecting perfection cripples the hell out of you. I agree with GLL, that the most liberating thing you can do in game is have this belief:
>>DO NOT TRY AND BE SMOOTH.
>>DO NOT TRY AND BE SMOOTH.
>>DO NOT TRY AND BE SMOOTH.
>>GUYS THAT GET LAID A LOT — ARE NOT SMOOTH MOST OF THE TIME.
>>Sometimes, if a guy comes across a girl who he has natural chemistry with, the interaction will go smoothly and he will look smooth.
>>By and large, however, guys that Get Laid a lot have plenty of sloppy, awkward, painful-to-watch-for-the-normal-person-who-doesn’t-Get-Laid interactions.
>>I repeat –
>>GUYS THAT GET LAID A LOT — ARE NOT SMOOTH MOST OF THE TIME.
https://www.goodlookingloser.com/anxiety/index/the-most-liberating-thing-you-can-possibly-hear-if-you-are-scared-to-talk-to-girls
An anecdote that explains why I have such a strong belief in how okay it is to not be smooth, and even that crossing a girl’s boundaries is good and healthy and expected as a man pursuing his desires:
When I first started game, I remember I watched some RSD videos where they talked about how it is okay to open with a kiss, or kiss a girl early in the interaction. It was in the beginning of my game, and I was always a daygamer. I didn’t make a distinction that this was for nightclubs only or USA only, I remember a video by Tyler saying the difference between daygame and nightgame is just that the sun is shining, so I said what the hell, let’s try this out.
I went out, I found a cute little spinner, who turns out later to be an Armenian 20 years old virgin from a conservative family. Anyway, I didn’t know that at the time, I talked to her for literally 30 seconds and went for the kiss. She pushed me away and was shocked. I honestly found that situation so funny (imagine a guy going to kiss a girl he doesn’t know in the middle of the street at noon) and I laughed hard, it was so funny to me. Understanding it now, her seeing how my state did not crash and how it actually amplified, the girl started giggling and said “you are so funny”. Well, after that, there was so much attraction from her for me that when I took her number she was insisting: “Please call me.” Then, we went on a date where I was still a n00b so I did not take charge and I let that attraction fizzle out (but that’s okay, it’s all part of the learning).
Anyway, that was a first experience that marked me: I opened a conservative virgin teenage girl, the conversation was boring, I pissed her off, my reaction of laughing and not being affected turned her on so much that it gave her a strong jolt of attraction, and she even sneaked past her conservative family to go on a date with me, a random stranger that didn’t even tell her much about me.
I actually don’t think about LMR as a “thing”. I just think about it as me enjoying the girl and turning her on. I found that a “cheat code” to women is there is a point where if I crossed it they get so turned on that they lose control, there is no resistance.
I first realized this when I had a Filipina 20 years old hottie who was “resisting” all the time in Yohami;s words (but to me, if the girl doesn’t leave, then it is on. I pay attention to her actions more than words). Well, I got her to my bed, and she was like “No, I don’t know you yet, it is too fast.” I actually was so turned on by the smell of her, kissing her neck and enjoying her my desire kept me enjoying her body with kisses and touches, unflinchingly. After about 10 minutes of her resisting and me turning her on, she said: “Ok, you win. I cannot resist anymore, do anything you want to me.”
To me, trying to adapt to the girl would be a step backwards first before maybe getting me some results (I have to know someone else pulls it off consistently other than Yohami. Even Tyler talked in a video about how he expects girls not to sleep with him the first night, so his solution was to sleep next to her that night and then wake up in the morning, that’s when he escalates for sex, in the morning after.)
It’s a step backwards to me because it will make me, at least at first, calculate what I do and pay more attention to her than to my desires, which shows she is too valuable to me.
If I could sum up game in just 1 sentence, it is this: You are higher value than the girl, and she is below you. She is the one that pleases you. She is the one that changes and adapts to you, you are not the one that changes and adapts to her. And you’re a guy full of desires for her because you love and desire women but you do not need her.
Actually, one of the very best posts on this I have ever seen is this one by BlackDragon:
http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/12/01/men-dont-understand-female-attraction/
This matches my experience, and matches our experience of LMR. Women do not want a man who caters to them.
Like he explained:
Not complying with a woman’s desires > she gets temporarily pissed off > attraction spikes.
Complying with a woman’s desires > she gets temporary satisfaction > attraction drops.
So, because of my own definition of game, my experience, and even thoughts of very smart people like BlackDragon I am resistant to believe what Yohami says 100%.
Everyone gets rejected, even his Top Guys. I have real life proof of this: Two girls I dated rejected men who are much more “Top Guy” than me, yet I was able to get them without having more social status or value than them, just off pure desire octopus game.
One of the girls is a black girl from a very rich family. She was at a private party where R Kelly was there, he made moves on her, she rejected him.
Me, I brought her to my room, we were making out hard, my cock was hard from how hot she was so I pulled my cock out and showed it to her. She left. Then she called me and said to come to her place, she doesn’t want to go to my place anymore. I went. We talked. She said close your eyes and do not open them otherwise I stop. I was like “wtf? But okay”. She unzipped me and started giving me a blowjob saying to not open my eyes. We started dating after that. R Kelly got rejected by this girl, I was octopus all over her with pure desire, I got her. She is an A level girl in body, attitude and social status.
Another girl is a Spanish swimwear model who is also a singer and an actress I dated. She was at a Marc Anthony concert in Madrid. She told met he story like this: He pointed at me from the stage, so after the concert they brought me and my girl friends backstage to meet him. He asked me to come have some drinks with him at his hotel. The arrogance of that guy thinking he can just have me because he thinks he’s a big deal. Well, me I rolled up, talked her, was so close feeling the chemistry and sexual connection. There were even both of her female cousins there cockblocking and she stopped them, saying “No, stop, I want to talk to this guy.”
Again, thinking about what the A-level girls I had said, they always said comments like: “You look like a guy who gets a lot of girls, that’s hot.” and “I love how horny you are, it turns me on.”
My game is pure desire for the woman, and it actually and surprisingly works better on A-level girls rather than B or lower simply because A-level girls turn me on so much, while other girls they are “nice to have” but never become like how I feel about A-level girls “This is for me, look at how hot that girl is, I am going to enjoy this!”
Of course, I meet married women and women with a boyfriend who tell me so. When it’s a B level or below girl, I simply say “Thank you, have a nice day.” But with A Level girls I just cannot give up, I can’t control myself. I remember a girl that was so hot it was funny, I was seeing her moving in slow motion with the wind blowing in her hair, she looked like an angel, so my body automatically went for her and I opened, she told me she was married but I found myself holding her hand, looking deep into her eyes, and saying: “NO. You are for me. This is going to happen. This is meant to be.” I meant every word of it.
Anyway, more and more I believe that George from Street Attraction was right, like Philander posted on http://love.dayga.me/
>>the story goes like this: A social scientist researched in Polynesia and lived with a tribe that lived mostly independently from ‘civilazation’, totally naked and who (if I remember correctly) only had a simple language.
>>So he had two epiphanies:
>>a) The men of the tribe offered him their women. They simply didn’t have the restrictions of the monogamous value system. What I found more relevant for game was
>>b) that because they went around totally naked, it was obvious for every woman when she was arousing a man in front of her – his erection. The women could then choose to have sex with him or not.
>>As simple as that – no courtship or gaming required.
>>And that made it so ‘tangible’ why we should never ‘hide our dick’ in set and why birds react so positively on authentic, direct expression of sexual interest, nowadays transported by (body) language and not direct sight.
That is my game with A Level girls: a communication of how turned on the woman makes. It’s enjoying everything about her that turns me on to make me even more turned on. Women get submissive when I am in that state, and they really do not put hard boundaries anymore. I become the leader automatically because I don’t experience hard boundaries anymore.
This game has worked wonderfully on Asian girls, especially Japanese and SEA. I am not talking normal ones, I do not find those attractive, I am talking actual models and artists. It also worked on Latinas (which are my favorites). I have not had much experience with Russian girls, but my minor experience with Russian tourists in Barcelona when I visited there is they were rude as fuck to me. Still, I am going soon to Eastern Europe and I will Hard Cock Octopus the girls and see what happens.
Still, I may be biased because of my personality. I truly enjoy “devouring” a beautiful YHT girl, I enjoy touching them, their company, kissing them, I almost can’t control myself from enjoying them and touching them when they are A Level girls. Game that consists in laying back and being the cool James Bond guy is okay but doesn’t seem as much fun and enjoyable and fulfilling as Octopus Rake game that comes from the heart.
I’ll reply in more detail later, for now this. You’re still interpreting this from the angle of the inoffensive beta who wont cross a boundary and is bending to her not to get a rejection.
Contrasted to the stud player who acts on his desires and pushes forward, going for what he wants and crossing boundaries, and gets tons of rejections and objections but gets her turned on along the way and gets it done (mostly).
Now add a third option which is what Im talking about:
The stud player who acts on his desires and pushes forward, going for what he wants and crossing boundaries, and getting tons of positive responses and gets it done, a thousand times more than the previous guy.
—-
I bring it up because it’s a false choice / a false binary, to think that avoiding the rejection and not moving forward are opposite things. You Move Forward, WHILE avoiding the rejection. Not because you’re afraid, or because you’re respecting her, or because you’re harmless, but because you know what you’re doing, you know the outcome you want, and you know how to get it. It’s a skill. It’s not fear based. It’s not that you avoid rejection because you are afraid of upsetting her and losing her (a lot of the time the right action is to upset her), but because, why would you go for rejection when you have something else you can do that guarantees success?
And why I bring all this stuff is – you can get there by paying attention, and discarding this as a false dichotomy. It’s not ‘you vs her’. Her default pose is not ‘reject’ and ‘rejection’ is not something you have to overcome, by pushing against it. It’s something to move around, push to the side, and double down in the part that is a “Yes” about her, or, giving her what she wants. And there’s something she wants, and it’s right there in front of you.
So has nothing to do with being perfect and stuff: my message here is “pay attention” this is the most important thing because it is your radar.
You may think that paying attention and ‘giving her what she wants’ is beta or bottom guy – but that’s the beta in you talking, and also the beta that needs to die. Learn to identify the sweet spots and be ALPHA on them, not beta.
So many words!
—————-
You’re also showing it in the stories:
“I laughed hard, it was so funny to me. Understanding it now, her seeing how my state did not crash and how it actually amplified,”
You moved in to kiss her (go for what you want, swing your dick, take initiative), she pushes against it (you’re moving too ahead of her, so she raises a wall), you back off and LAUGH (outcome independent, self amused, positive emotions)
Stop it there, watch the frame.
The actual move is the laugh. That is the display of high value. Without it, you’re a creep. So when you move ahead of the pace she doesn’t know who you are, she’s being led where she’s not ready or willing, she raises the wall. Your response is pure high value, she sees top guy. That’s the move.
So the attempt of kissing is the “ramp” for the actual move which is the laughter. The move is to show you don’t care, and that yes you want to fuck her but she doesn’t matter to you.
Guess what happens next?
She sees what she wants. AND SHE WANTS YOU TO TAKE HER OUT. SHE’S CLOSING THE SALE HERSELF! :-D
Do you see it? where’s the resistance now? all it took is that she sees the top guy in front of her. The wall turned into she chasing you. Now she wants it.
You could have kissed her there, the work is done.
Now compare. What would be “insisting on pushing against rejection” which is what Im advising not to do?
You would have gone for the kiss, she raises the wall, and then you keep trying to kiss her while she tries to run away, you try to grab her, try to close her escape routes, demand her phone number, try to kiss again, in a pushy rapey mode, and eventually get angry and frustrated.
Do you see?
“Two girls I dated rejected men who are much more “Top Guy” than me, yet I was able to get them without having more social status or value than them, just off pure desire”
Again – “top guy” is not fame or social status :-D
From the story it seems you are pressing on their buttons with intent and no shame, which is actually top guy stuff.
” Women get submissive when I am in that state,”
So they are not in “resistant” state.
“I become the leader automatically because I don’t experience hard boundaries anymore.”
There.
“Game that consists in laying back and being the cool James Bond guy”
That’s not it.
“The arrogance of that guy thinking he can just have me because he thinks he’s a big deal.”
If the story is true at all she probably gave Marc Anthony a blowjob.
“I first realized this when I had a Filipina 20 years old hottie who was “resisting” all the time in Yohami;s words (but to me, if the girl doesn’t leave, then it is on. I pay attention to her actions more than words). ”
Yep – if she doesn’t leave, it’s on. Actually if she’s giving you any time whatsoever, it’s on. Her actions matter more than the words.
This is a perfect example of when pushing against her fake rejection is what she wants to get turned on, so “do more of what she’s reacting to / give her more of what she wants”
“Women do not want a man who caters to them.”
In all your stories you’re giving the girls what they explicitly want.
“You are higher value than the girl, and she is below you. She is the one that pleases you. She is the one that changes and adapts to you, you are not the one that changes and adapts to her.”
Yes. This is top guy frame. That’s the foundation.
The second part, or what follows, is calibration. Which you’re doing in all your stories.
The LMR is not when she puts with 10 min on “no no no” while in your bed while cuddling and stuff and then have sex – that’s foreplay.
The LMR is when she actually has a wall that you’re pushing against and it all ends with her running away and never seeing each other again – even though she was in your bed and wanted sex, but you missed something.
Here is where Paul Janka was (presumably) talking about pushing harder and quasi rape, and where Nash is left wondering if he should have pushed harder and forced here. And here’s where I say “No, you’re actually missing the piece that would turn her into a yes, so instead of pushing against rejection, make her flip”
Get it?
When the black girl wouldn’t blow you you didnt grab her head and try to push her and didn’t make a drama situation about how you deserve to be blown. You let her go – which is top guy. What did she do next?
Did she offer last minute resistance after she saw the top guy behavior?
She blew you herself out of her own initiative – like she did to every other top guy before and has continued to do ever since :-D
And all my other advice here is about how to prepare and deliver the move, so it’s more about finesse than substance. The substance is Top guy first, calibration second. If you bring calibration first then you can’t pull top guy, and I can understand why the calibration rubs you the wrong way. But the calibration is not something you put before the top guy. It’s the lipstick on the pig, and the pig itself is more important.
>>She blew you herself out of her own initiative – like she did to every other top guy before and has continued to do ever since :-D
I like how you think. In this case, it wasn’t. Just like Krauser says, most girls are not promiscuous, they only put out for the right guy. Well, I am the right guy. I have more girls who cheat on their boyfriends with me than single girls in my notches. Why? Because I am the right guy and because most top girls don’t stay single for long. :-)
Well I say that tongue in cheek but chances are… if she’s turned on she’ll act on it, assuming the ‘right guy’ know what he’s doing. Not really up to her. So being promiscuous is more of a matter of what kind of men are available and how much she’s hit on vs what kind of relationship she’s in and what kind of men she can hold into for what period of time.
So lots of cocks!
It is sad Yohami that you’re judgmental about girls and are trying to make me look bad, as if I am a guy who only gets sluts with that move that even Krauser made work on multiple virgins.
Honestly, when I am with a girl, there is nobody else in the world except me and her. There is not other moment in time except the now, no past and no present. She has no history to me, all she has is a present and future that are mine, where she is mine.
You should try it sometimes. I do not value-judge girls based on their past sexual experiences and I do not even ask or try to know. I am often shocked to find our a girl has a boyfriend and is cheating on him with me because to me there is nobody else in the world except me, her and my desire.
That girl was not a slut, but that doesn’t matter. I have met girls who had high notch counts that were truly amazing girls who just have a healthy view on sex and enjoy it as an experience without many hangups. And I have met girls who only ever had sex with 1 guy who are obnoxious witches whose attitude ensures no guy who respects himself stays near them for long.
Yohami, I hope you experience someday my kind of game to know that what I said before is true:
There is a Rubicon, a point of no return, a point where if you get to by turning the girl on physically she just completely surrenders. Before that point, she resists getting there. I think because women know when they get there, they lose control.
I can see it in their eyes. Once they cross that point, their get bedroom eyes, and become like little girls who are totally free. In a way, they become as full of desire as I am. I think it is my game, the octopus AMOG hard cock full of desire rake that fills girls with the same desire through their mirror neurons, then they just go into that state and become hungry little beasts themselves.
Like you said, there is no Game, there are Game that get different results. Your aloof blasé top guy game might get you a different reaction, but my Octopus of Desire game makes the girls resist a bit at first, then cross a threshold where they unleash their inner slut and lose their hangups.
I have experience doing this in Asia, South America and Spain. I do not claim to know if USA girls or Russian girls behave the same way.
>>“Give her more of what she wants… less of what she doesn’t want.”
– Yohami-Rōshi
>>”If that sounds insulting simple, I agree with you. I hated that line, for months. I’d walk around saying it in a stupid voice… “Meh meh meh… less of what she doesn’t want… meh meh meh… duh!”
– Nash
In Zen, that’s called a koan.
The disciple receives it from the master and chews it, trying to find the sense in and behind it, gets back to the master, gets rejected, chews more, gets back, rejected, over and over and over again…
>>”That line haunted me until I listen a little harder. Until I unlocked a couple more pieces. I’m barely getting in the door now…”
– Nash
…until in the most of unexpected moments, it hits him. And he’s enlightened.
When he enters the Dojo the next time, he does not need to SAY anything—the Rōshi sees it in his eyes, in the first splitsecond, that he found the answer and will know forever.
A beautiful and very powerful moment. But not coming in for free—usually, years of practice and contemplation are required.
But Nash got it within a year. Congratulation.
>>”Pay attention”
– Yohami
In Zen, that’s called awareness.
There is nothing else in life that matters other than awareness. Say the Zen masters.
>>”I know it sounds insulting sometimes…but it’s a fucking gift what he is doing for us here. I get that you really study, that you are open, that you are very smart guy. It’s just that this stuff is very hard to hear. A seducers “dog whistle.”
– Nash
Yes, indeed. Thank you, master Yohami. I learnt so much from you in all the posts. More than from many DVDs, books, and even classes. I would love to book coaching with you but I can’t find anything other than your software company website. You lived in Baires but now in Poland, do I remember correctly?
In Zen, the master selects his disciple.
After the disciple has proven his intent. Thoroughly. Once he has found out in which monastery the Rōshi is hiding, he makes his way up through the jungle, up to the wild mountains, into the last valley. The he knocks the door of the monastery but no one opens. The disciple sits down in front of the door and starts doing ZaZen, just sitting and meditating. One day, one night. Another day, another night. In the rain, in the snow. Eventually, somebody opens the door and let’s him in. No talking is required, just action. And awareness.
Viva Daygame.
I had further thoughts on this, and I remembered a quote by Seth Godin:
“As marketers and agents of change, we almost always overrate our ability to make change happen. the reason is simple:
Everyone always acts in accordance with the internal narrative. Always.
You generally can’t get someone to do something that they don’t want to do, and most of the time, what people want to do is take action (or not take action) that reinforces their internal narrative.”
And like Krauser said, and I am paraphrasing here: “The best you can do when you are at the top of your game is control 20% of the process, the rest is outside your control.”
Or as Epictetus said
“It’s something like going on an ocean voyage. What can I do? Pick the captain, the boat, the date, and the best time to sail. But then a storm hits… What are my options? I do the only thing I am in a position to do, drown — but fearlessly, without bawling or crying out to God, because I know that what is born must also die.
We do not have as much control as Yohami wants us to think we do, and it’s not healthy to think so or chase perfection. I can control my actions but cannot control how the girl receives them, she can drop out of state or get pissed off any time even just because I said a word that reminds her of her ex who said that word before doing something traumatic to her, or whatever.
The true difference between me and Yohami is I am a Hunter and Yohami is a farmer:
As a farmer, he might have more value than the hunter. He’s zen because the crops are not that feisty or resistant. They are under his control, he is focused on what they need: my crops need more fertilizer today, my crops need more pesticide today. And he goes slow, taking care of them not to lose them, then stockpiles the food for future consumption creating more value.
That is okay, but it is BORING.
I am the hunter. I go out, I don’t know whether I will succeed. I deal with wild animals, not crops that do not resist. Like the lion chasing the YHT gazelle, she runs from me and I go after her because I desire that tender meat. She runs right, I close the right for her. She runs left, I catch her. Then, as we become one, as I devour that tender YHT flesh, and she gives me after a little resistance as she is getting devoured before her final submission, and her brain floods with endorphins where she will feel the best high of her life as she becomes a part of me and I am one with her.
People keep on introducing all kinds of terminology here that fucks up the conversation because it’s not well explained (top guy, bottom guy, ramp, wall, whatever), so let me re-introduce an old school term with a modern definition: I am introducing the game of the Awesome Men Og Game (aka AMOGs :)
Yohami’s Top Guy is a value farmer. He is zen because he can afford to, he has his whole land filled with crops and he takes care of them by giving them what they need so they don’t wither and die. He is Zen because he is BORED, it’s the same process again and again and again, there is no excitement, just the crops growing (chasing him) and him giving them what they need and stopping what they do not need (fertilizer, taking off weeds, etc).
AMOGs are hunters. We go out, we stalk our prey, we love the game, we desire it and knowing we might or might not get it makes it even more exciting… each girl is different, she’s a wild animal, she resists because she knows we’re hunters and she is the prey but still she desires to be consumed as much as we desire to consume her… she runs not knowing what will happen which excites her… she wants a worthy hunter, so she resists, she puts up obstacles, she runs at her top speed hoping to find a worthy hunter to give her like the Greeks used to say a beautiful death at the hand of a man who is up to the task:
https://youtu.be/YeFiwYQtGp0?t=34s
We are excited because we don’t know what will happen. She is excited because she doesn’t know what will happen. We desire that YHT, salivate at the thought of it, our DNA pushes us towards it with all our might and force, we are clever, smart, full of desire and love for our prey. And our prey is exciting, she runs but that turns her on even more, we pierce through her defenses and that turns her on even more, finally a worthy man, a man who is up to the task, a man who can take me, ravage me, and penetrate me fully.
We are the AMOGs. We are up the task. We penetrate barriers and we hunt wild unpredictable prey.
Wild prey is the most delicious, the most flavorful, and tastes even better because we hunted it ourselves.
The Top Guy aristocratic farmers can have their own crops, they can be zen and fertilize and take care of those crops, and be bored to death doing it.
But that is not us. We are living an exciting life, a life worth remembering.
“You generally can’t get someone to do something that they don’t want to do, and most of the time, what people want to do is take action (or not take action) that reinforces their internal narrative.”
Right, so it’s not pushing against their rejection and resistance, but finding their narrative and making it happen. When it suits you.
“We do not have as much control as Yohami wants us to think we do”
I said nothing about control. I said pay attention, do more of what works, less of what doesn’t. Find the “yes”, don’t insist on the “no”
“I can control my actions but cannot control how the girl receives them”
It’s not about “controlling” how she receives them. It’s about doubling down when she’s receptive to something specific. Do you trust stronger when she’s moaning wildly?
It’s that moan-chase what Im talking about.
“The true difference between me and Yohami is I am a Hunter and Yohami is a farmer”
Nope. You’re not getting it.
“That is okay, but it is BORING.”
What’s boring is you coming up with more wild thoughts that have nothing to do with what I keep repeating on and on. How about you put aside your preconceptions and read.
“Yohami’s Top Guy is a value farmer.”
No.
“she wants a worthy hunter, so she resists,”
Read yourself. Pause the nonsense. Read yourself. What did you write right there:
SHE WANTS.
Put your thoughts together. What did you just say? that she wants? she wants what? a… worthy hunter? she wants a what? and what are you…. … worthy hunter??? so you are there and she’s dancing with you watching you do your thing and throwing obstacles that you overcome by displaying how much of a good hunter you are… till you… give her what she wants?
Dude.
Stop the nonsense. This is exactly what Im talking about. Go back and re-read everything.
At the core – her desire is not to push you away and resist you. Her desire is to pull you in: if you’re worthy. All the dance is to screen if you’re worthy. Then you prove you are and you ‘give her what she wants’
You’re so wasting my time here lol. And fuck that farmer analogy.
———
In the meantime all this doesn’t help Nash who is actually having girls reject him while he’s bouncing against invisible walls and wondering if he should become more rapey.
Ok, now I understand you Yohami. Thank you for being patient and for explaining yourself well. At first it wasn’t clear.
This is good because also getting you to explain things more and more clearly and clarifying any points of confusion benefits everyone because now they can know what you mean and what you do not mean.
Ok then Yohami, we agree. We are not here to force girls to do what they do not want, but to follow the process that helps the girls get to what they want: to find a man who can help them navigate the mess inside them to get to the hard cock of the strong they truly desire.
Bingo. Your other long message has a lot of baloney, not sure if I want to open that can of worms though.
I like your thinking. You should start a blog.
>>Yohami the kind of Top guy you describe here, what i have noticed is girls will try to lock him down instead of using such high caliber just for sex..
— Robinhood
>>Robin – yes they try very quickly. Sometimes after the first one night stand even. I got love letters after one night stands. Which is ridiculous. Kind of heart breaking if you look at it from the beta frame.
— Yohami
This is a very important point. Yohami game them is more K-selected game and mine is more r-selected (I am sure Daygame Infinite explains this better).
When the girl is with me feeling my desire, it is like a flood of masculine desire coming at her. I do not get girls when they are with trying to commit or doing anything. Actually, all the girl does is she reacts to me and she feels my masculine desire filling her.
They only do such a thing once the bubble bursts (they go home and go back to normal). Mostly the Asian girls do this, not as much the Latinas, saying “Let’s determine the relationship”. But it doesn’t matter, every time they are in actual contact with me, there is no space for them to think such thoughts.
Do I get all girls? No, of course not. By I get the Yes girls and a big chunk of Maybe girls, except in the case of a Force Majeure or if I lose interest in the girl.
My problem is not the Yes girls, it is not enough girls who turn on my pure desire. But is okay, we’re all work in progress, I like to think of this as a high quality problem.
” Yohami game them is more K-selected ” banging girls after 20 min after meeting them is hardly K-selected game.
Stop your nonsense.
Be nice Yohami. We are friends here, a tribe of men together figuring things out. :)
Im your friend, just setting some verbal boundaries there :-)
It is not that simple, as you can hear in this discussion with Krauser:
https://youtu.be/Jsxtam_BhC4?t=44m13s
Which part of that discussion would be relevant?
That is exactly what i said in my earlier comment to yohami. The kind of Top guy he describes, girls will scarifice sex (since they can get it easily) to even have a tiniest of the tiny chance of reining such a top guy in a relationship. So yeah, delayed/no fucking for the top guy cuz lock him down at all cost. Curse of such through the roof high value.
“So yeah, delayed/no fucking for the top guy”
And the “top guy” will accept that frame, of course.
Lol alright. So the guy who accepts that frame is a bottom guy. Why does she stick around a bottom guy?
That’s the part i don’t get most about Yohami.
Fast Sex + Top Guy = wtf? Unless she is drunk or on vacation at a resort or in Vegas, and even then!
Yohami, I put the time stamp of that Youtube link at 44m13s, the discussion is exactly about 2 or 3 seconds after that.
“Fast Sex + Top Guy = wtf”
Explain what is wtf about it, since you defined top-guy as MAN, now you’re reversing and can’t believe women have fast sex with men.
Krauser’s video is on the topic of women making betas wait.
“Why does a woman stick around with a guy with money that she can control”
Was that ever a question?
But you guys keep confusing top guy with rich beta guy. Why?
But you said all of them are always looking for the top guy? How did she end up with bottom guy then? Is it that she does not meet the defination of ‘all women’ you described?
And no, i am not talking about rich beta boy. I have the top guy you described above in mind when i say top guy.
Are you under the assumption that women don’t have sex with successful / confident / skilled men with more power and abundance than they have themselves / and instead they only have sex with men wearing bad t-shirts that pick them up on the street?
It’s like you have a picture of the world where there are only betas and PUAS, and you’re forgetting about the whole Alpha / Player spectrum, which are the ones actually having most of the sex.
Robin,
“But you said all of them are always looking for the top guy?”
Yes, but that’s not what Krauser is talking about in the video – these are women making rich beta provider men wait.
“How did she end up with bottom guy then? Is it that she does not meet the defination of ‘all women’ you described?”
No.
“And no, i am not talking about rich beta boy.”
Krauser is.
“I have the top guy you described above in mind when i say top guy.”
Right so when a woman meets a successful man who’s sexually agressive and just had a threesome, and he says ‘hey’ and her vagina melts, then she says “Im going to make this guy wait”
That?
When I agreed with you that the girls want the top-guy for a relationship I didn’t know you were talking about women trying to snatch a provider.
I was talking about the normal cycle when you’re having sex for a while and after a period of time ‘her feelings change’ and now she wants to have the talk, starts being jealous about other girls, starts nesting, leaving stuff at your home, becomes more possessive and starts with the power plays.
That’s a gradual process and in a normal situation takes from a few weeks to a few months.
When I hit “top guy” it started taking days or hours.
So it’s very dishearting to see “real love” on the eyes of a girl who doesn’t even know you, but she knows ‘you’re the one’ and it’s like she’s going to die and will never be able to find another man like you after you just banged her once or twice.
It’s sad because it stomps on all your beta illusions about love if you still have some, like I had.
Then it became a joke. “how long before ‘she’s in love’ and wants to nest”
In some cases right after banging a girl she revealed she already had written a love letter.
Women are psychos.
Has nothing to do with women making beta wait. This is in the polar opposite spectrum.
“..a successful man who’s sexually agressive and just had a threesome, and he says ‘hey’ and her vagina melts, then she says “Im going to make this guy wait”
You mixed the two here again. Successful man is chulo’s social status guy and sexually aggressive threesome-having is chulo’s sexual status guy/MAN.
Both are dominant and successful in different ways. If a woman is looking for a relationship/upgrade she will go for the Successfull well-rounded Top guy and try to lock him down by avoiding fast sex. If she’s looking for fast sex, she will go for ‘loser in a t-shirt’.
I am at a point where i deliberately try to come across as a loser/lazy guy than i actually am to avoid relationship potential. Increase the sexual status, hide the social status. Just dominate her on a personal level and avoid displaying my success/dominance on the world(all that Top guy stuff).
Actually no – all the jergon you threw up there is why I use Top Guy and not Alpha and not other terms.
It comes from a picture of two african men, one on top of each other. The one on top is fiery and confident, the one on the bottom is his slave, captured from another tribe, and is congested and suffering and in burden. They represent the two frames, alpha y beta, in a very visual way. So the top one will make the girls wet, the bottom one will scare them. The behaviors and frames and entry points of each are exclusive. Of the two, the bottom one would be the provider (the one carrying the burden and doing service).
“You mixed the two here again.”
No, Im talking about the stuff above.
“Successful man is chulo’s social status”
Successful, know how, swagger, confidence, can-do, self reassured. THIS IS USUALLY ACCOMPANIED BY SOCIAL STATUS but social status is an independent thing.
“guy and sexually aggressive threesome-having is chulo’s sexual status guy/MAN.”
Slicing things in a million smaller parts doesn’t help unless you’re doing it for a reason. In this case you’re slicing it and losing the big picture.
“If a woman is looking for a relationship/upgrade she will go for the Successfull well-rounded Top guy and try to lock him down by avoiding fast sex. ”
This is basically false because you inserted “top guy” where you meant “provider”
“If she’s looking for fast sex, she will go for ‘loser in a t-shirt’.”
No, this is false. The woman will go with the man who can arouse her.
“I am at a point where i deliberately try to come across as a loser/lazy guy than i actually am to avoid relationship potential.”
Been there done that – it helped to get rid of my beta stink back in the day.
“Increase the sexual status, hide the social status. ”
False. Where are you getting this stuff from?
All it takes is you put it to practice and question it, or just watch the world out there. False to the core.
Go anywhere and see who’s getting the sex: it’s the men at the center and top of whatever tribe or group you are in.
Even in a bar, the dj and bartenders, owner, VIP area, bouncers have the first pick.
So no.
“Just dominate her on a personal level”
It’s not an or / either.
“and avoid displaying my success/dominance on the world(all that Top guy stuff).”
Ridiculously false. Displays of power in all their forms are a big turn on.
But you seem to have this worldview that men at the top are beta. Why? If you manage to get success on top of your manly aggressive persona, will you be pussified? if I give you a million bucks and you get to be the boss of every place you put your feet on, would you be forced to have less sex?
Dude.
you manage to get success on top of your manly aggressive persona, will you be pussified?
Yes. Since it makes you a provider guy, not fast sex guy. Thats why its better to hide success even if you are succesful.
Even in Krauser’s legendary new book Daygame Infinite, he talks about a BIG problem for players: that displaying even the slightest hint that you are a guy with ambition that could be going somewhere with your life will get you on the slow-sex track on most girl’s brain.
https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Krauser3.png
Tyler even has a quote I read before that the guys who get the most sex with women seem like complete retards.
Btw, Yohami, when I say Top Guy, I imply he has ambition / success in his life. Man = leading strong masculine behavior, top guy to me is alpha.
Anyway, this is an important new distinction that Krauser addresses in his new book: if you seem to have any provider potential to the girl, she’ll slow sex you.
Like Krauser said, guys who have ambition and such good traits are in girl’s brains NOT NATURALLY PROMISCUOUS. So Top Guy = slow sex.
The new distinction is this: Dominant Retard Fun Guy = Fast Sex!
Now I understand much better what Tyler was talking about and I know why my game works.
I don’t tell girls much about myself, i don’t DHV, I don’t look particularly good or muscular or rich, and I am older than her. But I am the fun guy because desire emotions spikes her emotions = fun fun fun! It’s just one way then to push the retarded dominant guy buttons = fast adventure sex!
Robin,
“you manage to get success on top of your manly aggressive persona, will you be pussified?Yes. Since it makes you a provider guy, not fast sex guy.”
No.
“Thats why its better to hide success even if you are succesful.”
You’re 180 degrees wrong. Even a very superficial screening of the world will tell you so: look outside.
Chulo,
Krauser is basically bad at this. I don’t mean to dis the guy as I learned from him, we talked a few times. The guy is a leader, showing his face and building his power pyramid.
But he’s wrong. He’s so wrong his own actions negate whatever you’re trying to argue here.
“So Top Guy = slow sex.”
Drop the text book and check the reality. This is an idiotic point.
There is PLATINUM in these comments. So much good discussion here that I will have to read it several times to take it all in.
I only wanted to give a small piece of anecdotal evidence: I am so surprised when reading daygame blogs at how much LMR guys get. I almost *never* get LMR. I just ran the numbers — the last 40 dates I’ve been on, I have gotten LMR twice. Banged 16 of those girls.
I wonder if there is just less LMR in online game because the girls are signing up with the explicit purpose of having sex. If so, more reason that online is the best.
“I wonder if there is just less LMR in online game because the girls are signing up with the explicit purpose of having sex.”
The thing is that it’s always explicit. When you pick her up on the street it’s also explicit that you want to bang her – then she goes home and puts on some lingerie and comes to the date and then…
It’s something else.
You’re not getting the LMR (or just the R) because you’re doing something else right. And were here trying to close that gap for the ones who do experience it.
>> You’re not getting the LMR (or just the R) because you’re doing something else right.
Yeah, I agree with that as well. I want to help other guys figure out what that is. Had a Korean tourist in my bed last night, she rejected the kiss, I played it cool, 7 minutes later, no resistance. I wish I could understand what I improved, because early on in the game (Spring 2016) I was getting to first or second base with a lot of girls and then they didn’t want to see me again.
If I had to guess, I would say it was congruency. Back then I was playing the nice guy on the outside but then escalating like a madman once back at my house. Now I’m bad guy on the outside, bad guy in the house.
“Now I’m bad guy on the outside, bad guy in the house.”
Bingo.
Yeah. This is already a classic of Daygame literature. Despite 2018 still being so young, not to say YHT
Ok, something important for me to mention is that I do not believe anymore in Alpha Male / Top Guy. The book Sex at Dawn convinced me of this fact. Which is pretty liberating and a lot less stressful.
Game to me is much simpler than that. They proved to me with anthropological, biological and scientific proof that women in human beings are not like chimps, they are like bonobos.
Women evolved to be hypersexual, to crave sex more than men, to not even guard their eggs as the standard narrative states but to let the sperm of various men fight inside her so she gets the top quality sperm out of all. Women want to experience various men, they want to be gangbanged. Women are turned on by a man. It’s not only the “alpha male” that gets the sex, otherwise very few men will ever fuck. Women are turned on by a man, but the problem is we’re living in a time where most men are feminized males, they project a feminine energy, they do not turn women on.
So game to me is something else. Inner game is simply becoming a man. A man does things out of his own accord, a man penetrates and builds and achieves and plans and executes and is proactive not receptive.
The problem is the hypersexual slut is chained inside every woman. Social conditioning slut shames women into becoming something they hate: a produce, someone with sexual hangups.
So outer game to me is simply helping the woman navigate through her social conditioning hangups to let out her inner slut that craves the cock. I am liberating women from the prison of their minds so that they can be the hungry cock slut she YEARNS to be.
The girl is on my side, she’s cheering me on. She’s fed up with her social conditioning and hoping for a worthy man to come save her from the social conditioning that chains her, from the prison of her mind, the prison that society inflicted on her. She’s a princess in a castle, and I am the prince on the white horse. I am fighting the dragon of her social conditioning, so of course that social conditioning will put up resistance. But the girl deep inside is cheering for me to succeed, to let her liberate her true self, her hypersexual self. That’s why like Yohami said and before him Tyler and Todd that every girl will tell you exactly how you should game her to sleep with her. The girl, just like we were when we were first started, are frustrated at ourselves because we couldn’t control the nice guy tendencies without much effort and work.
I am like personal development for women. I am a liberator of them. I save them from the prison they are in. There is a wild hypersexual slut inside every girl and she is hoping just for 2 things: (1) a man who is masculine, (2) a man who will guide her through the messy storm of her social conditioning, through that maze so that the little dirty sweet slut can be liberated. My role is also to bring back out this side of her whenever her social conditioning tries to read its ugly head back.
It is my belief that men need feminine energy to feel happy. It is a primal need just like food, water, and air. In the same way, I believe that women need to feel masculine energy to balance themselves and feel happy. But in our society where most men are feminized, she is craving that. She just wants a man who is masculine, who is a man not a feminized male.
So I don’t believe in top guy or alpha or any of that BS. Such thought makes you feel small, like you need to transform into something mythical and be perfect.
What I believe in is being a man. A man is not a sissy. A man has courage, balls, a brain, and enjoys women so he has experience with them. A man fucks a girl’s brain out.
So being a man, the man version of myself, all I do is give the woman masculine energy which turns her on, because I believe that male desire is simply a concentrated flow of masculine energy, she feels it because of her mirror neurons.
And then on a tactical level, I am simply helping her shut off the part of her brain that is limiting her, where her social conditioning resides, even if temporarily.
Then, she becomes free like a bird. She become a little girl who is free to be the slut she loves being. So I don’t see a bitchy girl or a resistant girl, all I see is a free dirty little slut inside who is chained by her social conditioning, I feel bad for her and I do my best to liberate her from her social conditioning which she hates to feel and be in.
So to me LMR is not a thing. I don’t even get “strong” LMR whatever that is. LMR to me is simply her social conditioning just giving it one last fight before it surrenders. And in the background, the girl is cheering me on, hoping I persist, I guide her to the land of hard cock and masculine desire. That is all.
Yes, you may adapt. If her social conditioning is strong in an area, find another entrance.
So fuck being the alpha top guy. I am a gentle guide. I desire the woman which turns on my masculine energy which feeds her, she craves it, she misses it, she cheers me to win. And I guide her through her internal mess caused by her social conditioning to help her escape from that maze and get to what we both want: hot steamy sex.
Ehm, nope. But good luck trying.
Why is it a competition, dude? Why can’t it be a collaboration to elevate the understanding of the tribe of man through merging many perspectives of men who do get women?
Tyler explains it even better: https://youtu.be/o3uiuuIs14o?t=1h26m1s
100% top guy talk from Tyler – ‘come to the party’. Good find!
What is a competition though? Im saying nope because you got he pieces wrong, but I don’t think I can convince you with text, though hell if Im tempted to try. And the good luck is because you’ll try to implement these ideas out there and get very predictable results.
You’re not the first to think you’re collaborating in liberating women to find their inner slut. I heard it before, and I played that role before.
But – and here I go – that’s just a story. That’s now what women want, and that’s not what you want either. That’s a story to consolidate your desires without having to revise why you feel small, stressed when confronted with the ‘mythical figures’.
Nash has said something similar in that he can do alpha things but doesn’t want to ‘be’ alpha. I’ve heard it from other voices too. I can’t understand it really, but the river, out there, the sea of women, will keep banging your head against the wall until you figure it out. So go out there and bang and crash and burn and grow and good luck. Nobody is born knowing the way, it’s got to be found.
If you believe that the sexual attraction is socially conditioned – go ahead and bang all the C girls, and the D and E girls. They are all human and have beauty. It’s all social conditioning, take some viagra and think of London.
I never said sexual attraction is socially conditioned.
I said sexual hangups are socially conditioned. Without them, women are hypersexual, meaning they love cock in all its forms.
That’s why women love gangbangs and gloryholes. They love cock and want a lot of cock and do not distinguish between a beta cock or an alpha cock when it is presented to them in a gloryhole for example.
Read Sex at Dawn and you’ll understand better, Yohami.
Women don’t want to ‘be sluts’ more than you want to be a womanizer for the C and D E girls. What they want is to snatch the toppest guy they can find. And there’s nothing you can do to change that.
They will play along with your ‘free the slut’ narrative if they think you’re top guy and believe they can snatch you into change your ways after you’ve invested long enough in them. SO.
I’ll read the book but if they say otherwise, it’s propaganda.
“They love cock and want a lot of cock and do not distinguish between a beta cock or an alpha cock when it is presented to them in a gloryhole for example.”
You love pussy and can’t distinguish between A or E quality girl when you’re on a glory hole so what are you waiting for?
Actually you love ass and can’t distinguish between male and female ass when you’re on a glory hole so what are you waiting for! enjoy the freedom bro.
Thank you for prompting me to clarify this further.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying something specific:
The “Top Guy” behaviors, I am saying these are pre-requisites to be a man. Those are not being alpha, those are being a man. It is a lot less intimidating than it sounds because you are already born to be a man.
I am distinguishing because in my opinion: Alpha Male = Man + Social Status.
The Stoic in my separates the two because social success is NOT guaranteed even if you have the right plan and the right behavior, it is something outside of your control.
So, what I am saying is: work on your success, that is good, but it is NOT a necessary condition for getting girls.
I am saying is: Man behavior (What you call top guy which would make people never feel they got there because they will always feel “I need to get better, I need to get better”, there will always be room to get better so most people will not think they arrived at top guy even even though they may already be there. So I am redefining it as being a man. Standard man behavior = what you call top guy).
So Man Behavior + Masculine Desire = FANTASTIC Game.
It is about congruence. Be a man who moves out of his own accord, desire the woman, and get her out of her social conditioning so she can liberate the slut she wants to be for your masculine cock.
What you call a beta I call a feminized male. He has within him what it takes to be a man. But in the paradigm of alpha and beta, 95% of men are beta and can never become alpha. Thinking about it as Man vs Feminized Male is better because it means manliness is within him, it is part of him, all he needs is to cultivate it rather than to learn it like a totally foreign language like top guy vs bottom guy, alpha vs beta implies.
“The “Top Guy” behaviors, I am saying these are pre-requisites to be a man. Those are not being alpha, those are being a man. It is a lot less intimidating than it sounds because you are already born to be a man”
Got it – that’s true and I like the framing. A man who’s not ‘top guy’ is not really a man. His dick is pointing inwards and in a way has not been born yet. He’s not fully expressed on this plane. So he’s a person or a collage or something, a shadow, barely alive. Which is how women see at these men as well. “not a man”.
“Alpha Male = Man + Social Status.”
Ah. This is why we need a better lexicon or dictionary. When I say Alpha it’s just about behavior and traits. The social status is almost a separate category. But sure, let’s talk on the frame that Alpha is the actual man on top of the tribe. That’s how animals do it.
“social success is NOT guaranteed even if you have the right plan and the right behavior”
True and viceversa, the social success doesn’t guarantee that the masculine traits will emerge.
“So, what I am saying is: work on your success, that is good, but it is NOT a necessary condition for getting girls.”
Yes. The material and social success is for you but it’s not a requisite to get girls. The requisite is that you’re a man. Or a MAN. Or a top guy. Fully expressed, unrestrained, dominant, present, skilled.
“So Man Behavior + Masculine Desire = FANTASTIC Game.”
Yep.
“What you call a beta I call a feminized male.”
One and the same, also known as bottom guy.
“95% of men are beta and can never become alpha. ”
Well not true – if by Alpha you mean the man at the top of the social status, we have so, so many hierarchies that you can always be at the top of some group. But this makes little sense when the real substance is being a man. The idea of getting into situational alpha status is that it facilitates your becoming of a man, it’s not the position itself but what it does for you, the reality it exposes and the set of mechanics it forces you to learn.
“all he needs is to cultivate it rather than to learn it like a totally foreign language”
For betas, being a MAN is a foreign language, which is sad as fuck.
>>For betas, being a MAN is a foreign language, which is sad as fuck.
My belief is that the alpha/beta distinction is unhealthy.
When you tell a guy he is beta and needs to become alpha, even if he tries, subconsciously he will sabotage himself for this simple reason: we grew up in an environment where if you tried to become an alpha, the alpha male of that place will come and kill you because it means you’re trying to take his place. So such a talk will sabotage success.
But my frame of: Man vs Feminized Man means you already have that part inside you and you can work on developing it. It is less intimidating, you’re not competing with a stronger alpha, you’re just bringing out your inner MAN. That is encouraging and makes men less stressed than becoming an alpha because evolutionarily becoming an alpha from a beta position basically means going to war.
“you’re not competing with a stronger alpha”
But the fear of competing with a stronger alpha IS the feminized part. So yeah, there’s discomfort and fear and pain etc but that is PRECISELY why that is the path to take.
How else do you become a man? it has to be faced frontally, it’s not something that will just ‘happen’ to you.
Yohami, how were you before you discovered game?
Were you a nice guy provider who noticed girls prefer badboys? Or were you always a “top guy” who became even better through game?
And how did you learn? Did you study and practice and notice the way most of us do? Or did you learn, plus you had a special intuition that guided you into deeper learning and internalization?
“how were you before you discovered game?”
Long story
– I was a suicidal type omega / incel / till I was 21
– Beta and white knight feminist / incel till I was 27
– Obsessed with Game and PUA till I was 28
– Player and womanizer, party lifestyle till I was 32
– Top Guy since 2012. Im 41 now
So right before game I was a romantic beta with a forever broken heart and dry spells that would last for 2 years or so.
“Were you a nice guy provider who noticed girls prefer badboys? Or were you always a “top guy” who became even better through game?”
I was working really hard to be the nice safe provider with nothing but good emotions and a shoulder to cry on.
“And how did you learn? Did you study and practice and notice the way most of us do?”
I found a DeAngelo article on OKCupid about being funny / cocky and I devoured his material. Along his stuff there were interviews with other gurus so I bought them all, I got to RSD, pickup 101 and others. I got into the forums and got all the pds. One product from badboy convinced me I had to quit my life and become a PUA fulltime. So I did. Full PUA for a few months then switched to Player, the difference being that the PUA is all about scoring women and the Player is about living the life of the bachelor. So I was going out every day and trying things and talking to 20 different girls on average at the same time. So what I was doing was entering many groups and being ‘the cool dude’ on that group, and flirt and escalate with every girl I’d met anywhere regardless of my actual level of attraction. The sort of unexpectedly the connections I was making while being a player became my social circle – one where I was at the top. So I learned to handle social groups, then iteration, crash and burn iteration, dreams crash and burn iteration, build that ego crash and burn iteration, iteration, iteration.
Then I made some nice money and put it all together – and when I put the actual social value plus all the rules of the game together it all clicked. Not in the most flattering way though – reality is ugly. It has a beauty, but it’s ugly.
“Or did you learn, plus you had a special intuition that guided you into deeper learning and internalization?”
Well, Im a fucking genius, but I had zero social skills and no understanding, or worse, I was repulsed by the actual mechanics of social interaction and the female / male dynamics as I thought they were bad and arbitrary. So I didn’t want to play the game – I just wanted to find a girl who’d love me for me and to that one I would give it all. So that. Learning what is, and then acquiring the skills and letting the real world transform me made me functional – here’s my eternal gratitude to Game.
Thank you Yohami for sharing your story and for all your comments. I am for one grateful for your contributions and clarifications, and it’s an inspiration the long way you came. :-)
Btw, you said this:
>>Nash has said something similar in that he can do alpha things but doesn’t want to ‘be’ alpha. I’ve heard it from other voices too. I can’t understand it really
And you answered it yourself here:
>>I was repulsed by the actual mechanics of social interaction and the female / male dynamics as I thought they were bad and arbitrary. So I didn’t want to play the game
It’s the same feeling.
Sure but that’s before, way before I decided to get into game. I had to jump on the pool to learn Game.
Being repulsed by the mechanics and not wanting to go Alpha (or MAN) WHILE being in Game for years and years and years, that I don’t understand.
Now I‘m not only deeply impressed but also really moved.
Posts on PUA blogs can escalate quickly into AMOGing in writing. Alphas and soon-to-be-alphas doing their fight and then it‘s only about whose ego wins.
I‘m glad how you wrapped up this discussion. Maybe I‘m outing myself as the fight-avoiding, harmony seeking pussy I am, to a certain extent—which is exactly what I‘m working on in and through game.
Chulo,
I still don‘t get what you are looking for in daygame, as you seem to have tight game, your own Octopus Game style and lots of successes with real hotties? Is it about increasing efficiency, having more control in reproducing or just the skill of killing prey when YOU want to hunt it, as opposed to random social circle game?
Yohami,
As I wrote above, you are a really great teacher for the micro subtleties during the interaction. But now you also set the path on the macro level:
>>“how were you before you discovered game?”
– I was a suicidal type omega / incel / till I was 21
– Beta and white knight feminist / incel till I was 27
– Obsessed with Game and PUA till I was 28
– Player and womanizer, party lifestyle till I was 32
– Top Guy since 2012. Im 41 now
To me this reads like the Blueprint For The Attractive Masculine Man‘s Path.
PUA > Player > Top Guy (> ? Wise Man?)
A bit discouraging when you are still at a beginner daygame level but only at the first sight. Actually, you provide Covey’s End in Mind and so we may be able to shorten the overall long journey, e.g. by training the Top Guy frame already now.
And I would never have thought that this is your story, that you came from that position—I would have expected the same as Chulo, you having been a semi-natural.
It shows what a wonderful gift Game is for us originally nice guys and insecure men. Glad and grateful for having all of this—what a freedom to have this option to free yourself with hard work, lots of practice and the open sharing of our weaknesses and pasts.
Love life game and women.
Cheers man.
“women are hypergamous”
vs
“women delay sex with top guys and are fast with non-alphas”
The manosphere / pua circuit needs a bullshit detox.
Even Alex Social here talks about how when he was living in a 3 million dollar apartment, girls delayed sex with him A LOT. While Bradicus who rented a smelly dirty room had sex with 6 girls from daygame during the same period. That is earlier in this same video, but you can hear here how girls made him wait: https://youtu.be/vW6xxz92gJk?t=54m38s
Btw, Alex has TOP notch game. He has proven it again and again.
But as soon as he started to display some wealth, and have a rich guy’s apartment, girls made him wait for sex.
Same top guy game, but now ambition and success shut down his access to fast sex. It became all about making him wait and invest in her before sex.
Alex is bottom guy. When I moved to a 1 million dollar apartment I banged a different chick every day for four months. But enough of this nonsense. Get out there and try things.
I get laid on the first date 80% of the time right now. I live in an apartment in a literal ghetto in the most DLV area of my city with two roommates.
Guarantee if I lived by myself in a baller apartment, that rate would go UP and I would get more and hotter girls.
Displaying money and wealth can only help, PROVIDED you display it in the right ways, i.e. you are not the lame, fat, lover guy hoping to woo a woman with his money, you are a badass Christian Grey type gentleman who happens to have money and success.
“I get laid on the first date 80% of the time right now. ”
Way to go, congrats man. And yes to the rest of your comment.
With Tinder it’s too easy. I just heat them up with flirting and vague sexuality, then invite them over for tacos.
The girls that I think are worth a damn I run a hour-long first date and then a dinner at mine second date.
With daygame I am sure my rate would go down as girls aren’t as r-selected.
Thinking about your stuff. Are you kissing them on the first date?
Oops, didn’t get this until now. If the first date is at a location that’s at my house, I mostly don’t. The times that I do, it’s to test compliance (when I’m not sure if a girl is into it or not).
If the first date is at my house, I build comfort first, then kissing leads directly to sex with no breaks (no pulling away, etc.) and no LMR.
Aight. The second question is what % return for the second date?
Likely the ones who do return would have kissed you and bang you the first date.
And a percentage of the ones who don’t come for a second date would also have kissed and banged on a first date.
So if you kiss and pull on the first date the numbers should only go up.
So it’s a small fine tune for the BlackDragon system – experiment making the lay happen in within an hour of meeting them, but keep the chilling, self reassured vibe you’re getting from your current structure.
Not sure what you mean here. You meant to reverse that second line, surely?
Yeah, the top guy / alpha denial got to a ridiculous extreme where only lazy rabbit boys get sex, and everyone else gets LMR and is put on a wait list.
Listen to what this girl says, she confirms it: https://youtu.be/VO9VA8QVHYc?t=31m10s
>>“women delay sex with top guys and are fast with non-alphas”
No. “Women have no sex with betas. Delay sex with alphas. Have fast sex with rabbit fun guys.”
You’re talking nonsense Chulo, go out and live life, get some experiences.
So now anybody who points the errors in your thinking has no experience? That’s a cheap shot dude.
Still, I don’t hold it against you. Trying to be the alpha everywhere even when you are wrong probably helps you get laid. You tried to out-alpha everyone who criticized something you posted here, and even put down some truly great playboys like Krauser, Mystery and even Alex.
I prefer personally to keep an open mind and see the common ground where we all can grow from the learn.
“I prefer personally to keep an open mind”
Then open it and stop your nonsense. Cheers.
Yohami, so you’re now a more flawless player than Tyler?
You can hear him here saying how when girls know he had a big mansion, it lead to a fuckton of delayed sex with horny girls.
So is Tyler a bottom guy? Or you’re SOOOO top guy that you can conquer anything?
Listen to it here: https://youtu.be/DZtFlszT6Sc?t=21m27s
Rabbit fuckboy is the truth, Yohami. Just admit it. It’s okay, we’re between friends here, we’re doing it to advance the art for everyone, not to get stuck in outdated models that do not help or serve our purpose to go from cold approach to fast sex.
You’re not thinking dude. And this isn’t about me vs Tyler. What Im exposing here, and what he’s exposing in the video, is about the dynamics between men and women and between people.
My guess is that the girl Tyler was bringing to his mega mansion was a stripper (he likes to bang strippers).
I never had a mega mansion. I had a very nice lux apartment. And I never dated strippers – the girls were usually high class – so my apartment was above of their tribe value, but not x10 above. A couple of local supermodels I dated gave two fucks about my place, they were used to guys with real money.
I had zero cases of LTR in that apartment. Zero. I never brought a girl there who wasn’t already DTF though. Maybe Tyler girl was still ambivalent? it can happen. Maybe she was very materialistic? maybe she had a madona/ whore complex herself? maybe she was a stripper and had some personal rules about how to handle guys with money? what the fuck do I know?
What I know is that girls throw themselves at you the more successful you are.
Not the most ‘ambition’ you show, but the more actually ‘successful’. The throw themselves at you and chase your bones and initiate contact, start the flirt, write the romantic story on their heads before even knowing you, just because they see you doing your thing and swinging your dick with confidence. The lux apartment and the bling only multiplies that – it doesn’t detract.
If it detracts then you’re using it to compensate for your lack of real value.
But you don’t have to believe me: get out there and look at women. And look at men who know how to handle women.
Peace out.
“I had zero cases of LTR in that apartment”
But also my last instance of LTR was in 2009 or so, with a christian girl who started talking religion once we were naked in bed (I let that one go, she chased me for a while after). Before that, a 18yo virgin in that same year, who started rubbing herself against my hand but I didn’t escalate, so she wanted out. And before that… a canadian who wouldn’t bang on the first date, so we did it on date 2.
But that’s “LTR” only. Just plain resistance ‘I’ve got a boyfriend’ and all the endless variations of courtship and push and pulls, that’s normal.
Just nothing ever that had anything to do with me being successful.
Instead, material success multiplied the efectiveness of Game, by a million.
So erase that part of your script.
Tyler wears expensive jackets – so does Madison sitting next to him. The tribe you belong to is part of the filtering mechanism. Even if you want to be just a rabbit, you need to belong to a tribe she’d like to belong to.
And on that note Im done here, I said the same thing a hundred times. Cheers.
Posting a comment from xsplat (on Riv’s blog) here, so we have everything all in one place. This is a great thread of comments for everyone to study later:
>>Hmm. Never have to put on the brakes?
>>No, I disagree that this should be considered a one size fits all tactic.
>>Ya, it happens sometimes that it’s the guy who is actually taking things slower than the girl is ready for. But it’s more common that the guy needs to push some boundaries, in order to turn her on.
>>The calibration is not to keep her from every saying no. That would usually never work, if you are going after a girl who is younger hotter tighter than is socially acceptable. She’s going to have reservations, most of the time, and the dance includes pushing past them.
>>Then backing off and letting her come to you.
>>Then pushing past her boundaries.
>>Then backing off and letting her come to you.
>>That process makes her horny.
>>The dance is to just edge past enough, such that it’s not totally out of context to what she is ready for, and then to give her space to be ready for the next assault on her boundaries.
>>That assault turns her on. It’s the actual pushing past her no that makes her horny. Cave man game is a real thing.
>>But you are so familiar with it that it’s not rapy. It’s just a dance. Just a dance.
Xplat is a smart guy and he’s saying the same I do.
“That process makes her horny.”
It makes her horny – it doesn’t make her ‘resistant’.
You haven’t got the idea yet.
Analyze this:
“The dance is to just edge past enough, such that it’s not totally out of context to what she is ready for, and then to give her space to be ready for the next assault on her boundaries.”
“That assault turns her on”
Xplat wrote that as something Riv posting on his blog without having the context of what Im talking about – so his correction for ‘she doesn’t pull the brakes’ is verbatim what I’ve been saying here for a while.
To that, add a little more depth because you have to ask yourself what it means to push just on the edge of where she is at: so you have to pay attention and know exactly where she is at. And not move past the point where what you are doing is out of context with what she is ready for. And then you give space, then you iterate, always going up.
What I call “pull the breaks” is what happens when you push “out of the context of what she’s ready for”, and that makes her want to exit.
In other words if you’re not turning her on, you’re not paying attention to where she’s at, you’re not operating on the edge of what she’s ready for, you’re not escalating properly, then you lose the girl. The solution for this is not just ‘push harder’. The solution is to pay attention so you know what you are doing. When you know what you are doing, you do this dance and turn her on, and it doesn’t end up with she winning the bedroom battle and leaving to never see you again.
I agree with this. If you keep pushing by doing the thing that she doesn’t like, you’ll lose the girl.
I think that is a fundamental concept, because guys who keep doing what the girl is explicitly not liking will keep getting rejected left and right.
We’re talking here about LMR. I think insisting on doing what the girl doesn’t like won’t get you a girl on your bed to LMR you in the first place, unless you are acting like a good docile guy coming up with a valid excuse to get her home on friendly terms, then become rapey. That would be fucked up.
What we are saying is that LMR is part of the process. You say it is not. That is the fundamental point of difference.
I say girls are both willing and unwilling to get fucked. The dance between the willingness and unwillingness is a fun one. And I am saying that most girl’s LMR is “fictional”, meaning by trespassing that boundary, it melts. Of course, if you are doing something a girl is objecting to, you’re fucking yourself up AND girls are not these docile innocent malleable creatures they are fucking strong beasts and will fuck you up if you get rapey and do shit they do not accept or want.
I guess what tripped me up is Nash’s explanation that you are adapting at 1% increments to where the girl is at and you saying LMR shouldn’t even happen. I guess you are saying LMR should only happen if it is part of the process of the girl getting turned on.
My experience is that LMR is part of the process of the majority of girls, so much so that I’d say it is the standard way.
Still, let me define it well here: LMR to me is any resistance a girl puts before getting fucked by you for the first time.
LMR to me doesn’t mean you will not fuck the girl. I rarely get LMR and then not fuck the girl, very rare but only because I do start foreplay since hello, she knows it is sexual, she won’t even come to the room if she doesn’t know what’s up.
If Yohami in your definition LMR includes the guy failing at the end to fuck the girl, then that is to me defined as a near-miss.
LMR is simply the girl not jumping on your cock directly, so you need to warm her up and take the lead while she is putting up some resistance, resistance that she is not disliking, just slowing it down. That is all. So to me, LMR is natural, normal, and healthy.
But near-misses, where you get the girl semi-naked then she leaves, that means you are pushing too far.
So I guess from the beginning we were saying the same exact thing. Except that the definition of terms was fucking the conversation up.
We should get more scientific with this shit. Anybody who introduces a term should be asked to define what he means, even if it’s a “common” term.
A guy says: top guy, he has to define it. Or LMR, he has to define it: is it the coy behavior of a girl as she is being warmed up to sex, or do you mean girls resisting and leaving (to me that is a near-miss as is standardly defined http://www.bodipua.com/one-false-move-sdl-near-miss/)
Anyway, this thread is probably one of the best things on the internet for men who want to understand game and women.
So yes, definitions:
“LMR to me is any resistance a girl puts before getting fucked by you for the first time.”
That’s not the LMR we’re talking about. In Nash own post above, this is about a girl who after even orgasming left his apartment without wanting to be fucked, and left Nash wondering if he should have pusher further and be more ‘rapey’ like Paul Janka.
So that’s the context where I say the LMR is not part of the process, and it’s also not ‘last minute’. Nash likely did 2 things wrong:
– Pushed her out of the things that she was ready for, so internally she set a wall she wouldn’t cross. This is going “too fast”
While at the same time
– Didn’t do enough of the things she needed to get turned on and receptive for sexing him, he missed cues or did’t pay attention to her feedback loop, missed opportunities. This is going “too slow”
So likely he went both “too fast” and “too slow” AKA he didn’t pay attention to what she was responding to, and he didn’t do the things that worked, instead he did his own thing, went offsync with the girl, and when he tried to proceed to sex he found a ‘wall’, or a very clear resistance, not last minute, just resistance. It only looks like last minute because he didn’t know it was there until now.
So the solution there is not ‘push against that resistance and force her into sex’
Unless SPECIFICALLY that is the game she’s playing. How to know? pay attention to how she reacts to being more rough. So pay attention, pay attention, pay attention.
The cues were there all the time because all they do is tell you how to fuck them. All the time. Like while in sex they moan and you know what’s working for them and what not. Want to have sex with her: turn her on.
“LMR to me doesn’t mean you will not fuck the girl.”
Mystery also didn’t fuck that girl. So that’s the kind of LMR we’re talking about here. She goes to your place, things escalate, and then she wants out. This is not ‘normal’ and I stopped getting it very early on.
“We should get more scientific with this shit. ”
Agree.
This is good:
“I say girls are both willing and unwilling to get fucked.”
Yes and the whole dance and screening is about this and this only. Your job is to invest on the willing part and manouver around the unwilling part, like it was never there. Or like Xplat said “just on the edge”, and finding the willingness.
Ok, so let’s get more “full of definitions”:
In the world of what you can do to a girl, there are 3 types of things: the things that she likes, the things that she accepts (so neutral to them, might like them because you like them, or just be okay with them), and things she doesn’t like.
If you do something she doesn’t like, she will let you know (girls are not shy, pretty clear to me when she doesn’t like something), if you keep on doing it, she will tell you to go fuck yourself and leave.
If you do something neutral that is fine. She probably enjoy it because women want to please a man, so pleasing you turns her on.
Some things she loves a lot, so do more of those, those are good things.
So basically you do what you want, if you stumble upon something she doesn’t like, stop doing it, and do anything else. If you find something she likes, do more of it.
I see two kinds of resistance here: there is the coy resistance that the girl does to pace you, that is to me what LMR is, it doesn’t mean she is not enjoying it, it just means you warm her up more and more until you reach the point of no resistance, the point of no return. And there is the resistance of the girl getting pissed that you are doing something she does not like. It is pretty obvious to me when you do this because the microexpressions on her face will be of anger, and she might even drop out of a sexual state and get antsy and angry. But girls are so open to so many things that those “true pissed off resistance” things are not that common. Yes, they include you not letting her pace the escalation, if she puts your hang away from her boobs and you force yourself on her boobs, or you put your hand in her throat and start fingering her tonsils or something crazy like that. I say 99% of people will know not to do such things.
What I am saying is the first kind of resistance, the coy resistance where she is enjoying it and pacing it, it doesn’t mean you stop, you simply keep going warming her up until the point of no return. My escalation comes from a place of pure desire so I guess what happens is most guys stop as soon as she shows some coy resistance mistaking it for the pissed off resistance which will turn her off.
Still, Janka’s mindset is healthy. Keep escalating. Because really, the things that the girl will be resisting out of being pissed off are pretty strong, they are fucking obvious.
This discussion reminds me of this funny Louis C.K. bit:
https://youtu.be/NXpFtwYIKew?t=21s
Yes, it is funny, but do not get rapey with girls. That is not what this is about. If you do that, you’ll end up in jail, but I guess then your sex problems will be solved as you’ll be on the receiving end of getting laid every night lol There you can learn the true meaning of LMR, true resistance and how gangstas overcome your true resistance so you don’t do it again with girls.
It’s about piercing through the coy resistance and of course not pissing girls off when the resistance is real.
“So basically you do what you want, if you stumble upon something she doesn’t like, stop doing it, and do anything else. If you find something she likes, do more of it.”
Wise words. I wonder who’s been hammering this point all along.
:-)
Thank you Yohami for your patience.
Well, as a result of this LONG discussion, we clarified things.
I also know that it’s not a 1% adaptation thing like you need to have metaphysical powers of feeling the emotions moving inside the girl and stuff like that. The game is much more unforgiving than that, a 1% mistake in adaptation won’t fuck up the escalation, not even a 10% mistake or even a 30% I’d say.
>>Notice that “If she gets even 1% uncomfortable,” that is the level of the read here. It’s not ON/OFF. It’s “1%” adjustments.
— Nash
*The game is much more forgiving than that.
Agree, although sometimes the 1% makes a difference – in general if she likes you nothing else matter. The threshold is low if you have the basis covered.
Any slight resistance (any minute of the whole dance from approach to bed)=Lack of positive reaction from girl, i.e. of moaning, full kissing, compliance:=you didn’t give her what she needs or not enough (incl. not enough dominance and pushing her) => I guess the most difficult phase to read because there are many types and needs of girls but still little at stake, many small steps
LMR (token):=a lot at stake for her (giving V to C), so she is more sensitive; what girls wants more of is from you is you taking over the responsibility, she being the innocent seduced girl => push a bit further and back off/try again until she’s had enough
LMR (persistent), like Nash’s girl pulling her panties back on:=a lot at stake; you didn’t give her what she needs or not enough or the wrong thing => try something else but don’t push further
She leaving/near miss:=you didn’t give her what she needs or not enough AND already pushed too far (in the wrong direction) => calibrate better with next girl
And it’s better to face a near miss than not having pushed=tested her boundaries enough, because from the former you learn (I was/am guilty of the latter—nice guy inner game problem)
There’s something else here:
“I say girls are both willing and unwilling to get fucked.”
They are also willing and unwilling to be happy, or sad, or angry, etc. The good outcome and the bad outcome are both favorable and she’ll push you towards both. If you’re a top guy you’re in and she wins, if you’re a bottom guy she expels you out and she wins. You win or lose but she wins. Even in the case when you’re top guy and leave, or bottom guy and stay, these are ‘drama’ and thus devoured. Girls love it all. They push you to all these possible configurations.
That’s why you need to have your goals clear and be able to set boundaries, push back, set the course etc – whatever you want with her, you have to take that single thread and single narrative and double down there, and straighten out everything else, set boundaries, punish, block, ignore, etc. You have to set your narrative, your script in stone, and loud, so she can follow, and it has to be compatible with hers so it’s also her ‘win’.
But she can never be the one dictating the what and when and how because – her leadership is contradictory, and she can’t take you to ‘your’ win. The fact that she has the leadership already blocks the most favorable situations for you because is she has the lead, you’re not top guy, therefore all your endings are sour.
All this to say that it’s not about chasing her and pleasing her and ‘give her whatever she wants’ – the result of that is losing. The first stone is that you’re the owner of whatever is going on and this is going to where you want it. But in a way that she also gets what she wants – one of the configurations or stories that she wants. And one where she’s good to you. And all of this is your responsibility and yours only.
I like what you’re saying Yohami. It is good.
By the way, there is a question I always had, something that both Tyler and Julien say, which is that when you reach a very advanced level, you stop thinking about game in terms of what to do, but purely in terms of energy: of your energy, of her energy and of adding and moving the energy that is in the interaction between you and the girl.
Well, that seems abstract as fuck. Do you have an idea what they might mean with this?
Like, what he later in this video is that what he is doing with this girl here is leading and creating attraction purely through this energy shiznit: https://youtu.be/LFebWgqUtRY?t=27s
I liked how handled her, btw. I felt zero neediness out of him in that interaction. He didn’t flinch, he didn’t need her validation, it was an example of a man in his lane doing what he wants and she can join in, take it or leave it.
But Tyler and Julien talking about it as energy exchange and him doing things to her energy and adding to her energy, I try to have my own explanations for it, but you might have a more enlightening answer.
This post by Yohami reminds me of this audio by LoveDrop that Riv posted:
https://soundcloud.com/alpharivelino/lovedrop-explains-shit-tests
Oh, I get it now, this energy thing is a Super Saiyan thing, that’s why you changed your name from Yohami to Yohami Z, hahaha.
Anyway, I didn’t like the limiting beliefs in that video: that it’s weird that an older guy be daygaming.
I am a man, I do whatever I want. Daygaming is VERY fun for me, a lot more than going to a bar or club.
Plus, in the streets I can find all kinds of girls, not just club girls.
And this is the sadder thing I’ve ever seen today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvdDlW3v6Zs
Actually, those guys are an inspiration. Bradicus is a weirdo and is unhygienic as Alex said in some video, maybe that one, and Ryan is quite reactive in his infields, still needing the girl’s approval at some level.
Yet both guys do get laid with 7s and 8s.
It’s like Ross Jeffries says: You don’t have to be [Top Guy], all you need to be is better than the average guy that she is exposed to.
Or like Fader says: You don’t have to have instructor level game. 95% of men have NO GAME.
Again, to clarify: guys with a 6 or 7 level game doing cold approach pickup and banging an 8 the same day is an inspiration. It means we should be less stressed and making too big of a deal out of this.
I am not saying that my dream girls are 7s or 8s. I am saying that I am sure Nash’s game, Riv’s game, and I know mine is better than those guys. So if they get 7s and 8s, we better be banging 9s and 10s (the biggest problem for us is probably access to 9s and 10s, I don’t see them often on the streets where I live, that’s why I better GTFO and move ASAP :)
Good ol Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A
The call to be Top Guy, or the distinction of Alpha / Beta shouldn’t make you feel small, it should tell you that ‘you can be more’, or that ‘you are more than you think you are’
If it makes you feel small – it means you’re dreaming, as in, you’re identifying yourself with your current perspective, your current script and reality, like you’re watching a movie and you identify with a character – and that character doesn’t happen to be the alpha top guy stud, so you’re looking for ways to improve your character instead, and the current character feels scared / small.
The issue is that such fear is what will prevent you from doing progress, because Top Guy is the destination no matter what. Basically either you become it or regress to your bottom guy state.
The solution is to disassociate yourself from your identity, find new pieces and crystallize it, disassociate again, find new pieces and crystallize – it’s an iteration, a growing process. It’s like escalating on a girl, but you’re escalating on the archetype, “becoming” the top guy. Either you do this intentionally or it may happen to you as you try to seduce women and go there at a much slower pace by taking the feedback in, since you’ll be rewarded for top guy stuff and punished for bottom guy.
So if you really pay attention to what women respond to, what they reward, what they put walls to, and how they open when you adopt a specific language, frame reference, archetype – that way you find the ‘shadow’ or the ‘feedback’ of the top guy archetype, even if by accident, it’s a tangible crumb trail to follow.
But of course you go faster if you face that thing directly.
It’s right there and looking at you.
Peterson on climbing hierarchies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUAZDfND_dE
On extracting the potential and confronting the past (your frame) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn30HFOoGmw
example of a man not wanting to calibrate because he doesn’t think it’s alpha.
https://twitter.com/aguara_/status/953983299852079105
Cant see it, what does it say?
oh, i think he deleted that tweet. he was asking me how rough to be in bed with a girl who was 18 and inexperienced, whether he should calibrate.
i think this is good insight and it’s something i’ve been thinking about. in beginner and intermediate game, we are taught that the KEY thing is that “the man is in charge”. i am the prize, i need to flip the script and screen HER, she needs to enter MY WORLD, i need to hold the frame — all these “i am the rock”, “i need to lead” stuff that can in a way, contradict the idea of calibrating.
so when a man hears “give her more of what she wants, and less of what she doesn’t want”, then we get confused b/c that sounds like we are **not** the rock, and we are just doing anything to please her.
that’s a huge reason why i call your top guy strategy advanced game. because to a beginner and even intermediate, that sounds like a beta strategy. a beta is being the “nice guy” to try and please her. he is supplicating and weak. fixing her computer. holding her purse. etc.
Well the point is that calibrating an alpha and calibrating a beta re different things. When you calibrate as an alpha is about how to be ‘better’ in charge, how to lead ‘more’, how to get ‘what you want’, how to be a ‘stronger rock’.
So it’s not about bending back and being submissive and scared and bendy and pushovery and catering to her desires with the hope that as a result she’ll reward you with sex and attention.
It’s about leading, paying attention on what opportunities open sou you can advance more, press her buttons better, and properly dominate the her and the situation.
This would be clearer if the guy has used to any form of being in charge. But if he’s a beta he has only used his ‘listening skills’ to be a pushover, so he thinks that to be a leader you have to stop listening. It’s the opposite:
To be a leader you have to listen MORE.
Because when you’re a bottom guy all you do is follow orders and being pushed around.
When you’re top guy you are the one taking all the decisions, all the chances, setting the pace, progressing. How do you know what decisions are good and what are bad?
This is the difference of being an employee and being an entrepreneur.
——————–
So
1) Lead, command, entertain, set the mood, run the stories, roleplay, ping, poke, touch, move, play.
2) Some things will arouse her more, some things will make her open more, some things will produce a particular light on her eyes, some things will make her wet, become ‘hungrier’, go in trace. Do more of these, escalate on these. Some other things will turn her off, will make her dry, will take away the light from her eyes, will make her hard, do less of these. But:
2.1) Because you’re in leadership position, the above is all in context to where you want to you. You don’t change destinations because she’s offering resistance: you change the pace, the angle, the intensity, you work around the resistance. Or if she’s say, mishaving or shittesting, you set boundaries, you push her away, you call her silly, you punish. You reward and punish, but your direction is set. STILL, some of these things will cause her to open, and some will cause her to close. Because YOU want to get to where she is open, then you do more of the things that make her open.
See how this is not beta stuff at all.
When you’re opening as coconut you find the weak spot and hit there. That’s not beta.
When you want to make a crowd laught you tune to their sense of humor and crack a joke. Not beta.
When you want to make a girl come you rub on her clitoris / G point, as opposed to say, her elbow. Her elbow “she doesn’t respond to” her clit “she very much responds to” so you rub “where it works”
And the “what she wants” line:
She’s hungry for alpha men / top guy. She doesn’t want the beta guy, and the proof is that when you do beta, she pushes you away. She may take you for a servant but she wont take you. So we’re talking about what she wants in a man to be fucked by, you can’t fight her wants, you can satiate her wants instead. Satiating her wants is not beta: beta can’t satiate her wants.
I understand that the beta frame gets in the middle all the time. That’s why I insist on pushing it away FIRST. It really fucks up the whole process and learning.
So I made a lot of typos but fuck it, I just got up :-)
“he was asking me how rough to be in bed with a girl who was 18 and inexperienced, whether he should calibrate.”
No difference really. He has to escalate gradually and see how she responds to things. He can slap her ass a couple times, grab her neck, pull her hair some. If she responds scared he has to tune it down and go there gradually. If she responds with a moan or starts going in trance he has to increase the intensity until he’s either satisfied or he finds her limits
Thought it’s good practice to keep pushing until you’ve found her limits, regardless of where you’re satisfied, aka don’t be constrained by your own boundaries and explore around them. This goes in both directions, you can also go full vanilla and see what happens. Exploring makes you grow and trains you for different future girls and different configurations of this game.
“i call your top guy strategy advanced game”
And I disagree because the main shift is a shift in frame, not a shift in difficulty.
If the adoption of top guy is difficult – it’s not because it’s actually difficult, but because the bottom guy frame is getting in the way. It’s that you actually became ‘good’ at bottom guy game, so you want to win with it and refuse the top guy reality. But it’s not that top guy is hard.
Top guy happens very rapidly when anyone gets in power, and it’s rather nasty because it’s uncalibrated. You know how the worst people in the world are ‘clients’, followed by ‘bosses’. People adopt the top person frame all the time. You do it too. Being a client, being the buyer is not more ‘advanced’ than being the seller, the service provider. It’s a ‘different’ frame.
It’s only difficult because you’re trying to be the seller when you should be the buyer, you’re trying to be the service provider when you should be the client, you’re trying to be the employee when you should be the boss, etc.
Then ‘basic’ and ‘advanced’ are about levels of skill. But you can be a ‘basic boss’ and then you become an ‘advanced boss’. You can go from ‘basic top guy’ to ‘advanced top guy’. But you don’t go to ’employee of the month’ to ‘president’.
They are different ladders. This is why I insist that having success while in the wrong frame reinforces the wrong things. A bottom guy with some skills in emulating top guy will get some success and then will likely double down on being bottom guy.
Likely after some successes the bottom guy will think he has it figured out and will try to ditch the layers of bs around him and just ‘be himself’, only to see all the stuff he built be destroyed.
That was my process for a while too. And I was even trying to switch intentionally – I just didn’t know what I had to switch to.
So it’s a switch.
Even if you’re a kid you can start being ‘entrepreneur’ by selling lemonade or cookies or something, and learn from what works and what not, and learn how to treat the people under your command and how to deal with adversity. At a very small scale.
In game you have to learn the ‘basics’ of game, which is learning the basics of ‘top guy’. Not as an act of emulation or trickery but as a fundamental shift on your persona. Gotta switch frame. Gotta become that person that does these kinds of things NATURALLY. Always on. Otherwise ‘it’s not you’, and not only it will be subcommunicated all the time, but also when you stop paying attention and investing energy on the facade you’ll naturally regress to your starting point (and crash and burn).
So it’s not ‘advanced’ because top guy is not an extra layer of finish you add on top of all the other skills you acquired.
Top guy is the starting point because it’s the frame, and the frame is what holds together all the skills, behaviors, worldviews, beliefs etc.
Top guy is the frame that every situation you are in, no matter what you’re doing or what is going on, you are in charge, you are leading, you’re responsible, you’re at the top of things, and from that position you lead, you communicate, you set things right, you own, you push, you set boundaries, etc.
Then you can be good or bad at it, you can be basic or advanced, you can see big or small pieces, can see only the broad strokes or see all the nuances.
So I see all the nuances, but you don’t really need that or likely wont be able to see them because they are too small for bottom guy frame.
The bottom guy needs directions and these things are not directions: they are feedback to the action you already took when you were leading. They are the feedback for your leadership. They are not the commands from a leaders. They are the size of an ant. They are the subtle change in intensity of the moaning of a woman when you’re having sex with her and you change the trusting angle a little. That’s the feedback loop of your leadership. It means you have to already be leading, and have to be getting enough feedback so you’re used to what’s the normal so then can detect changes.
Can’t do any of that from bottom guy frame, no matter how skilled you are there.
Good stuff and clear.
However, you several times emphasied that alpha Top Guy and Top Guy doesn‘t depend on status.
So then Top Guy is first and foremost a FRAME but when you apply it for long enough, you will have success with women and in work, life alike and THEN get the status and it‘s proxies (money, power, follower)—which makes you the alpha of your several environments.
Correct? Any more aspects on Alpha vs. Top Guy?
Thx
“Good stuff and clear.”
Thanks, trying to iron this thing out.
Alpha and Top Guy are interchangeable ideas, we can talk about them both as frames and as a contextual hierarchical positions.
The point is that alpha / beta or top guy / bottom guy not only exist in you but in everyone else. Not only you can switch from one to another, but you and everyone else also has a paired, biological tendency of how to deal when someone else has that frame, and all together, the whole ‘group’ reacts as if was a single living being when interacting with each archetype.
When you are on the top frame and you encounter bottom, you command. When you’re weaker and you encounter a stronger frame, you follow. When both want to dominate, you fight it out until one frame turns out weaker, then one becomes top and the other bottom. When both want to be bottom you… cannibalize each other demanding that the other takes the leadership (tussle).
So this is both inner and outer. We sync our internal frame to the reality out there. So if you’r frame is bottom, then you are looking for someone to lead you. That will determine where you go in the tribe, aka you’ll scout around until you find someone who tell you what to do. Likewise if you have a top frame then you’ll scout until you find something to lead.
You can’t really hold on a frame in isolation. You may not ‘need’ the outter feedback to sustain your frame if you have some autism or psychopathy, aka you can be ‘top frame’ even if you’re a slave, or a ‘bottom frame’ even if president, but you still need cooperating frames around you to play. Say, the psychopath still needs to find cooperating victims, and the pushover needs to find more abusers, or the inner-frame can’t work.
Also your inner frame can change by forcing the feedback loop around you. You can be ‘broken’ by forcing you to submisive state, and can be ‘inflated’ by giving you power and resources and letting you run wild with it (check the behaviour of dictators).
So what Im saying is that inner and outer are one and the same.
Your masculine energy becomes extra masculine in the presence of feminine.
Your winner frame becomes extra winner when you actually win.
And your weakness becomes more weak when you lose, and your bottom frame becomes more bottom the more you do bottom stuff.
But the key here and where Im going is that this is not really a transformational thing. It’s not a journey. You CAN pretend it’s a journey and say this:
“Top Guy is a FRAME but when you apply it for long enough, you will have success with women”
But the ‘how long you’ve applied it’ has nothing to do with it.
It’s not “how long” but “are you applying it at all”
Are your actions coming from top guy frame at all.
Are you being dominant and setting the pace or are you being reactive and chasing the pace.
It’s not a progression from chaser to dominant. It’s a different starting point.
Then ‘having success’ is more than a frame, it requires skill.
To have success with women, life etc you need to be smart about making choices, get experience, repetition etc. But ‘success’ is goal specific and can be done through any frame. You can be a successful pushover and use that sort of dynamics to get anywhere in life, even to president, if you slave to the right people and are strategic about it. You can probably pushover yourself to hot girls and bang them. You can service-provider yourself and climb up or down and call it a success. So it’s not that success is tied to top guy.
Just that in this particular area, I am, and ‘men’ in general want to, tie up success to top guy, because going up and competition is a strong biological drive, and deep down the archetype demands that we climb something and have all the girls throwing their panties at us and we’re celebrated for having the biggest cock they’ve ever seen. Or if you don’t have that clear desire it still ‘hurts’ when you’re exposed to it, which means you were pushed down and now that archetype is buried and wanting to come up and break you. And you should let it.
So. “repeating the top guy frame” wont grant you success. For success you need to play subsequent games and be smart and skilled.
But “repeating top guy frame” gives you the compass for looking where to rule, how to rule, and gives you the playground for repetition that you need to get the skills and become good at it.
And the above is what is naturally attractive to women – the congruent top guy is what melts vaginas. Check the Peterson interview with the hardened harpy and how she reverts to her 15 year old self when she was bubbly and warm. The contact with the frame, or the contact with the archetype, makes you bend to specific complimentary shapes.
Top guy, the archetype, makes women horny and soft and hungry and accommodating. It’s never top guy chasing them, hunting them. It’s top guy as a rock, bouncing back the shit and setting the pace and leading, and fem energy becoming the water around it. So you adopt the shape, and let her adopt her shape.
“THEN get the status and it‘s proxies (money, power, follower)—which makes you the alpha of your several environments.”
Because this is a game of feedback loops you can do it reverse too. You can get the status and proxies and use that feedback loop to acquire the internal frame. Or, if I give you a million bucks and you’re able to misbehave at will, you will become the narcissist overpowered kid who thinks the world is below him and acts accordingly in no time. But then you’d have to WORK on it.
If you become the boss of any small group and it’s your job to make things work you’ll have to figure out how to manage the feedback loop and you’ll find the internal frame if you do it long enough and committed enough.
I commend Nash’s tornado game because even if he’s not trying to become alpha, the feedback loop from a BUNCH of women will start looking as a unison and telling him where the alpha frame is even if he doesn’t want to go there – and the instances where he goes alpha and it ‘works’ becomes his crumb trail (reference experiences) to actually go there.
Back in the day when I didn’t know what I was doing, I bought a bunch of fancy clothes that made me look like a stud but felt very uncomfortable, so I’d keep the clothes on at home, went to sleep with them etc all the time till my internal reference changed and the new fashion was not longer a costume but ‘this is what I look like’.
So the external changes your inner frame, and your inner frame chances the context. They are one at the same, or, grab the one you have more control over, and change that first, then make both congruent, then escalate more.
Yohami, is what Madison saying here what you mean with the Top Guy frame? And do you agree with what Tyler comments on what Madison says?
https://youtu.be/bj7AR7og_Yk?t=15m
And this Madison and then Tyler part is very important too. Any comment on these related to Top Guy frame, Yohami, please?
https://youtu.be/bj7AR7og_Yk?t=33m18s
Peterson is all on point here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDvFZMyqMG0
Yohami, you have 5 votes against your POV: Krauser, Tyler, Todd, Me and Robinhood whose life experiences and deep wisdom found that if a girl smells you’re a top guy, she delays sex.
Girls want the rabbit retarded boy who balances fun with dominance without ambition or other such traits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO9VA8QVHYc&feature=youtu.be&t=31m10s
And Todd talked in Valentine University how in Vegas when girls smell he has any possible traits of success or even doing something like opening the taxi door for the girl, they LMR the shit out of him.
So that’s the next frontier in Pickup. Top Guy and Patriarch = sex yes but slow sex and not the hot adventure sex full of kinky hot sweaty sex that the girls can’t get enough of. But retarded fun dominant “loser” = fast sex and super kinky type too.
I remember GLL talking about Scotty, and how the more he made himself be a douchebag and a loser, the faster girls slept with him and the more kinky shit they did, even though he was such a societal “loser” that girls would be ashamed to let people know they slept with him and did not want to date him, yet he was a fast sex guy, the cock they all craved purely for the sex.
I think this is because our frame is wrong, like Kraiser said, we have the wolf mindset that values quality: so we enter the PUA world, work on becoming a better man, a man in his prime, who has his kingdom and rules over it. But that is the wrong frame.
The right frame is to be the jester. The rabbit fun sextoy boy who girls just fuck fast because he’s so fun he doesn’t count, he’s not even in the relationship paradigm, he’s the fun retarded guy that turns them on and they can live all their fantasies with without consequences.
But with the Top Guy, a lot is at stake. It’s serious business. A Top Guy can change a girl’s life, a relationship with him will be a source of pride and security for her, so she sacrifices sex and plays all kinds of games to make him hers.
All the while she is getting DPed by the rabbit boys swallowing gallons of their cum, then acting to the Top Guy like a virgin, like a choosy girls, because the rabbit retarded fun guns are not a serious thing, they don’t count, it’s just fun, fun, fun! It doesn’t count! But with the Top Guy, so much is at stake she is calculating every move, she can’t lose him or let him go or ever give him the tiniest suspicions she’s an easy girl, so she will play hard to get, and will delay the sex more the more he shows better qualities of a man she wants to be with.
This is NOT equating Top Guy with Provider. A Provider will be chasing the girl and she will delay sex with him hoping to snatch a Top Guy, so she would only settle for a Provider once she’s past her prime. The Top Guy she may chase but all with the intention of showing him she is such a good girl and a selective woman that she will catch him in her prime, so she will delay sex and show she is such a good good girl. But the fun rabbit guys don’t matter, they’re not relationship material, they’re non-judgemental, so sex sex sex, fun fun fun, she can let out her inner pornstar with no repercussions, because it all doesn’t matter, it’s a rabbit boy, he’s fun!
From The Red Quest’s recent post.. “The fuckboy lifestyle — in which a man can be basically worthless yet sexually successful — ..
Worthless YET sexually successful. Get it, yohami?
>>Worthless YET sexually successful. Get it, yohami?
I agree with you 100% Robinhood.
Being a Top Guy is a sticking point if you want fast sex. Yes, be a Top Guy in other areas of your life, but if you want hot no-strings-attached fast sex with girls at the height of their SMV, show yourself to them as the WORTHLESS FUN FUCKBOY.
It is hard for us to accept, as Krauser wrote in his book. Even he resists it because he values being a high quality man. But all that does is make the girl think he is a catch, a relationship candidate.
In a world of betas where most men are NOT relationship material and are NOT the hot fuckboys, being a Top Guy is awesome value: you are the relationship material prize guy. So no girl will be an “easy girl” to you, they’ll all put up resistance, sacrifice sex to show you they are “different from the others, a girl worth it”. No matter how sexy or on point you are, if you are a Top Guy with any relationship potential, girls will automatically know if they fuck you fast, they will lose the relationship potential with you. Girls are great at relationship games, so all they will want is to get you invested in them so they secure a relationship with you, and like Yohami said “they wrote to him love letters”, well, that means they want a relationship with you not just a fuckboy fun times!
I had stumbled sometimes into a fuckboy relationship with girls who were more successful financially than me. They never wanted me to have a relationship with them, they never told me much about their lives (Krauser in his new book talks about how you shouldn’t talk to her much about her life so you can stay in the frame of the fun fuckboy who is a nice break from her real life, you are like a dream, like a vacation). So girls that are 22 and 23 who happened to see in me the fuckboy simply showed up for hot sex, did with me the craziest thing they wanted, told me they love how horny I am, never told me no about sex or didn’t want to try whatever with me.
I do not claim to have done often. It happened only because objectively I had zero relationship potential for girls who were more successful than me. It was only about the fun fun fun! The girls didn’t make me wait at all, had no hangups about being dirty little sluts with me. At the time, I didn’t get it, I thought “sometimes you just get lucky”.
But now thanks to Krauser’s new book, that video by Tyler and our collective hive mind (thank you Robinhood for not being intimidated by some consensus here that the top guy is the path, and knowing top guy = slow sex, which is what I have seen again and again in real life).
Now the next step is how to reduce our Top Guy Wolf tendencies and become more of a fuckboy rabbit fun guy.
Like Krauser said, if a guy even accepts the hierarchy of alpha and beta, he is a wolf, a guy who has Top Guy potential. The rabbit fun guys do not even take into consideration the notion of alpha and beta and top guy and whatever. They just follow the fun fun fun and the good emotions, and girls are drawn to that fun fun fun good emotions good times because that bubble means lots of sex with no consequences.
That’s why I am more and more in agreement with Sex at Dawn. Women in human beings are not like other “animals”. Women are NOT guarding their eggs. Women are guarding their reputation so that they secure protection from a Top Guy. But what women want is to have a lot of sex with many hot fun guys without that affecting their reputation or the Top Guy knowing. So if a guy is a social loser but is a fun fuckboy, she will unleash all her horniness towards him, fuck his brains out like she couldn’t with the other guys because she felt the pressure of society and of all the guys judging her if she did that.
Girls want to have sex with a lot of fuckboys, and want a relationship with a Top Guy. If you are a Top Guy, she will treat you as relationship material. If you are a fuckboy, she will fuck your brains out and feel free to be the dirty slut she wishes to be, while she keeps searching for a Top Guy who in front of him she will be a good girl and proper, and will even chase him but will not give sex because she wants him to invest in her and be with her. But once she hits the wall, if she didn’t find a Top Guy (while fucking the brains out of all the fuckboys meanwhile), she will have to settle with a nice beta provider who will chase her and want to please her, and yes, she will also play hard to get but only so the beta boy values her more.
This might be the most important video that Tyler has made, and it’s exactly on this topic. Skip to 6:00 if you want to see the beginning of his talk:
Thinking about this, then game for guys who are in minority groups that are not viewed as good relationship material in a larger group should NOT do the Top Guy game but the fuckboy game.
If it’s not okay for a girl’s family that she has a black or asian or indian boyfriend or whatever, like Yohami says, they’re not from the same tribe, so presenting yourself as a Top Guy will bring out the relationship value evaluation, and you will fail as you’re not part of the tribe.
But if you’ll fail the relationship value anyway because you’re not part of her tribe, then the right way is to go Total Rabbit Fuckboy!
Then she knows there is no hope for a relationship with you, but rather than rejecting you based on that, you can bet he fun guy who is bringing a different flavor to her experience.
Like Tyler talked about in the Blueprint how girls are like boats and they like to go into different islands to experience different guys, you can be a vacation for her from the guys in her tribe, and you don’t count, you’re fun, you’re a vacation! You know girls get promiscuous on vacation, so instead of the girls going on vacation, you bring the vacation to her, you’re fun!
And even Nash’s metaphor of the train station and the trains, that is NOT a metaphor for a patriarch, it is a pure metaphor for the fun guy, her train comes to your stop, you are a vacation she takes, then she moves on.
But because society is set up in a way where there is a lot of pressure and slut shaming on the girl, if she feels “on vacation” and fun around you, she’ll want to come back to you, let loose and just have fun and sex and a great time!
But with the Top Guy or the Patriarch, there is too much at stake. She is intimidated by him, there is pressure, there is a relationship at stake and access to resources and protection so she much scheme, she must get you to invest, she cannot just be carefree, she has to push for a relationship and delay sex.
So to know: if girls over time want a relationship with you, you’re not a fuckboy. That is the true litmus test and that is what lets you know whether you’re sending mixed signals or not.
If girls just go to visit you to fuck like rabbits and take a vacation from their lives, and that’s it, then you are the fun fuckboy who doesn’t count.
Chulo,
Stop the nonsense. Take a break and clear your head.
If you want to be a successful ‘fuckboy’ you need to have the dominance / swagger / confidence / know how / which is what Im calling ‘top guy’. Go back and re-read the hundred comments here where I laid it out already.
“But once she hits the wall, if she didn’t find a Top Guy”
All the fuckboys she had in her 20’s are the ‘top guys’. Go back an read. Then actually watch the videos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Robin + Chulo, you guys are not getting it.
“Worthless” In which ranking system?
“sexually successful.” What are the girls getting from these guys?
>>“sexually successful.” What are the girls getting from these guys?
Yohami, go back and re-read what me and Robinhood wrote.
They’re getting from the worthless fuckboys the ability to be free and totally themselves around them with no consequences. They are free because it doesn’t count, it’s fun, it’s a vacation from the judgmental society around them and having to be a good quality woman for the top guys. With the fuckboy, it is all about the fun with no judgment, she can be silly and free and a little girl and a dirty slut and she knows it’s just a station her train is on and she’ll move on without consequences to find a Top Guy station to settle in.
“Yohami, go back and re-read what me and Robinhood wrote.”
Sure, that’s clueless drivel
“They’re getting from the worthless fuckboys the ability to be free and totally themselves around them with no consequences.”
No, dig deeper.
You’re reaching Sasha / Aleksander levels of dementia btw. Are you sure you’re not a third personality of his?
1/ Please let me know how to find more about this Aleksander dude so I understand why you think I say similar things to him.
2/ I wish you were more humble and open minded Yohami. But I get it, this new Fuckboy insight messes with your ego because if you turn out to be wrong or need to be a student of this new Rabbit model, then you’re not the alpha guy anymore which hurts your ego. It is okay. They do say that science advances one funeral at a time, so I guess you’ll never move out of the Top Guy frame into the fuckboy understanding because you have too much ego investment in that model you learned 10 years ago. I really hope you can humble yourself and join us in this cutting edge understanding.
Just to clarify a point of yours: just like a beta guy can be dominant at work and weak with women, the fuckboy is at ease with women so he is naturally dominant, but he is so much into the moment, the fun, the hedonistic pleasure that he doesn’t bother to dominate any domain of action in life. He can be a bartender or flipping burgers or a surfer, but he views girls as silly little girls and brings the retarded fun, so they feel at ease there, there are no consequences, nothing to lose, no Top Guy to judge their relationship work, so they fuck fuck fuck because it doesn’t count, it’s a silly moment of fun!
You’re arguing without reading. I explained in quite a few comments, so did Nash, how the Top Guy is first and foremost a frame: a mental frame, a frame reference, what encompasses the behaviors, attitudes, demeanor, etc.
You keep arguing as if Top Guy means the dreamy guy that girls want to get into a relationship with.
But you’re arguing from ignorance – first because you didn’t read or didn’t process the information, and second because you lack the experience of being out there and dealing with girls, and here’s the kicker:
The man with the Top Guy frame IS the man the girls want desperately to get into a relationship. But not the one they make wait for sex, but the one they LURE WITH SEX.
Go out there and meet more women and pay attention.
As for the fuckboy idea – to be a fuckboy you need to be attractive, display attractive behaviors, and act in command, and know how to deal with women. This is what I’ve been explaining and framing as “top guy”. If you’re having problems processing it, erase whatever preconception you have fore the words “top guy” and read instead. I could be saying “alpha” or any other word, even ‘fuck boy’. It’s about the concept, not the word. You’re not getting the concept. Go back and break your patterns.
And stop ingesting poison from Krauser.
Fastest way to detox: go out there and put it in practice. Let reality sink in.
“But I get it, this new Fuckboy insight messes with your ego because if you turn out to be wrong or need to be a student of this new Rabbit model”
There’s nothing new about it. Go out and try.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO9VA8QVHYc&feature=youtu.be&t=31m10s
She fucked other guys who went for the kill and wouldn’t put up with a month of waiting: these are “top guys” displaying top guy behavior.
She snared a guy who would wait for a month before having sex, into a relationship – that guy let her dictate the rules, which is ‘bottom guy’
Top / Bottom
Dominant / Passive
Ditch your preconceptions, you’re missing this by a mile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESNtfXJBLGc
Listen to how Luke talks to people. From top to bottom. See how people respond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOf6OKgTyJU
Luke on how he tuned the *feedback loop* around him to emulate the men who’re successful with women (top guys)
Luke is THE PRIME example why “emulation” doesn’t work at higher levels and is no different from “fake it until you make it” mentality. I feel nothing but repulsion looking at this fat fuck.
Luke is a great example of how behavior trumps looks – check how unreactive he is, how his vibe is social and non needy, and how people react to him.
If he manages to lose that tummy he’ll be just fine.
You may feel repulsion, but motherfucker gets laid. Three words: status ecosystem game.
I don’t buy that Luke even gets laid. I don’t buy anything about that guy. I might lose the bet, but I’d bet against him every time.
The fact that Yohami likes him is his ONLY credibility in my eyes. It’s not ONLY that he is out of shape, it’s how he carries himself. His body language is “bottom guy.”
I think RSD pushes eco-system, as most guys can’t cut it in cold approach.
So eco-system (which does work) is sold hard because it’s easier to sell. A guy will buy products from RSD, work on “making friends with all the right people,” and get laid… maybe… occasionally. Sure.
Maybe Luke fucks “1 point” above his SMV, occasionally, but his SMV is 5… so… I’m not impressed.
The level of eco-system (nightlife vampire shit) is a tremendous effort, and it’s all situationally tied. So he can’t move around and take it with him.
No way Luke fucks hot girls No way they choose that guy over other cool guys. It goes against everything we know.
Compare him to Adonis (Los Vegas PUA from back in the day). Adonis was at least chubby, if not fat. Adonis could fuck super hot girls, you could see it in his BEHAVIOR. Luke, no way.
YES, behavior trumps looks. But the way Luke carries himself… I don’t buy that as behavior. That is “running around.” Not actually being Top Guy.
Check how people react to his interaction, men and women. It’s nothing but compliance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsnf4TYdn8
Listen to how Todd talks to the girls in the footage, all top to bottom. See how they respond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaZZMfRg_Jg
Todd “as long as she is there interacting with you, she’s saying yes”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88SnRrEcKI
Listen to how Tyler talks to the girls in the hot seats, all top to bottom. Note how they respond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ba5IA8tzdY
Top guy ‘relaxed’ vibe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIaHxQIvy6o
Almost two hours of Tyler talking to girls top to bottom
So whatever you need to become a dominant non-pussy, do that. You can’t be congruent with being a dominant man with women if you’re a pussy in the rest of your life. This is not something you can turn on and off – it must be always on. If you’re a dominant man your whole day during your whole life cycle, then that will make you compete with other men and will be reflected on your general life – this is what makes you congruent.
If you’re afraid of going dominant while in your non-pua life, then that will show up during your pickup.
Get it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-BYDkwrzgw
Listen to how Max talks to girls. All top to bottom. Note how they react.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawhzZB81vM
Madison talks about ‘flip the buyer / seller dynamic’.
Buyer : Top
Seller: Bottom
Get it.
And this is what it looks like when you’re the top guy throwing the party, and the social interaction happens around you: All the hot girls and their friends come to you begging to come in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGtBtAnpH4o
You can wake up now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Lv84OX5jE
Note how Julien talks to girls – all top to bottom. Note how the girls follow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cRrk6q12ck
Julien + Luke on owning the room, never ‘turning game mode on’
[…] on friday night, after dinner and drinks, she gave me some LMR! of course, i thought of nash’s LMR post with over 200 comments and so much insight — it needs to be turned into a PDF! — and so, when she gave me that […]
This is pretty much the same I did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIb2hBVd-fM
From cold approach to social circles to hierarchies
That video by Max is actually pretty brilliant!
Max is the only RSD guy worth following IMO. And yes, the video is absolutely correct (although it has no business being 46 minutes long, jesus).
“You’re arguing without reading. I explained in quite a few comments, so did Nash, how the Top Guy is first and foremost a frame: a mental frame, a frame reference, what encompasses the behaviors, attitudes, demeanor, etc. You keep arguing as if Top Guy means the dreamy guy that girls want to get into a relationship with.” -Yohami
i have only read about half the comments, but yeah, i agree with yohami.
chulo, what’s up, man?
This thread is not in chronological order, my discussion with Yohami has jumped all over the place.
So you might see early a later part of the discussion when we reached agreement and understanding, then scroll below and find an earlier part of the discussion before Yohami communicated his intentions with clarity.
The more we ‘talk’ the more you obfuscate. Take a break and come back in a year or two.
Honestly, Yohami I agree with you on a lot of stuff. It’s just that the way you write isn’t that clear to the reader. I took it upon myself to prod any possible misunderstanding in your argument to push you to clarify it, and I believe I did a great service to all the guys by exploring and getting you to explain your views.
Yes, I might have went far in “misunderstanding” you, but I did that on purpose to push for further explanation. I might get it because I know more than the average guy, but to get you to clarify the essence of your message helps both me and people who might be new and won’t get much out of what you say. Now they can get it, they have probably more written by you to read in this thread than anywhere else explaining things and misunderstandings in detail.
>>I don’t buy that Luke even gets laid.
Me neither, I watched his original Social Circle Blueprint and he talked about when there is a camera he tells the girls to perform for the camera and can get away with a lot of sexual shit he can’t without a camera.
To me, he is the definition of a dancing monkey. Nothing solid or dominant about that guy. Yes, people seem to “react” to him, but he’s in an environment full of cool guys who act dominant because they are top guys. He might have chosen specific instances where people seemed to react to him. He’s smart about social cues.
The most cringe worthy video I saw of him was him gaming a SUPER HOT girl telling her that if they had a fling together and he put her on Dan Bilzerian’s instagram, she’ll become instantly famous. He was tempting her with that shit, which is basically her sleeping with him for a benefit, which is sugar daddy / prostitution in my eyes.
So you don’t buy that he gets laid, but you admit he:
1. Gets away with sexual shit.
2. Has girls sleeping with him for a benefit.
Dawg, all girls sleep with men for benefits. Whether that’s looks, money, status, or simply being in the presence of an Alpha.
Luke gets laid. He just takes a different path than us.
P.S. he used to do pure cold approach back in the day. He was a member of the LA pickup community and there are many field reports written about him.
There is a test I like for guys… two bits, actually:
1. Would you personally respect him? I might respect his intellect. But I have seen him… and everyone knows I will follow a guy that is smart and has shit to teach me… I am NOT shallow in that way… and I have never even been tempted by Luke. No, I don’t respect him. If I saw him w/ a hot girl, my reaction would be WTF.
2. Is his advice good? Now here, it’s about trying it… or comparing it to what I know about women. Here, maybe he has value to us as men. But again, because I don’t respect him, because of how he comes off, how he carries himself, I won’t take the time to listen to him.
And I am not what you would call uncalibrated.
This is a moment to trust your gut…. not a produced video. What does your gut tell you about Luke? My gut is “revulsion.” Not only because he is serious out of shape… it’s something inner that “un-shines” through.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9c/1e/1f/9c1e1f64667acdf5e402ef978683776a–the-games-briefs.jpg
Compare Luke ^ to….
https://vidmoon.co/video/0QADMwVI9xD
Adonis ^. Adonis is overweight (more reasonably so)… but he is believable. It’s 2005 game there, but we know that works at some level.
Luke looks like he is overdosing on estrogyn. No, I don’t believe he gets laid…
EXCEPT possibly by girls that are using him, or think they can get something out of him.
That is not Top Guy.
I’ve seen fatter guys and with half his game getting laid so I have no problem believing Luke gets laid in the circuits he moves on. But I don’t know the guy personally so I can’t vouch for him.
On his first videos he showed two different personas – when he was talking to the camera he’d be shady, stiff and needy. But when he was in a social setup, talking to girls and people around him he’d become the center and all the girls bending to him quickly, he’d become ‘on’.
Now when he’s on camera he’s on most of the time.
Sometimes when he’s talking to hot girls one on one I can see some self defeating beliefs, like he can say ‘you know that pua stuff doesn’t work, like making the girl do a flip’, and while he flips the girl you can see clearly she’s getting turned on by it (though she agrees verbally with him it doesn’t work). So that’s funny.
But getting laid? I’ve seen worse, way way worse.
And for his teachings – all about the stuff he says is on point so far. Very specific but on point. And you can see in these videos how people react when he’s around.
If he’d lose that fat he’d kill it.
Try opening 2 tinder (or ok cupid or equivalent), one with Luke’s pics and other with some other guy, maybe good looking loser. And ping girls. Take notes.
I’ve done stuff like that before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4_GCMdk3pw
More ways to say the same thing
Here Todd talks about advanced game, and how when you are the source of validation to the girl, you get no LMR. It might be related to what Yohami talks about:
100%
Painfully over complicated video.
TLDR: Negs work… especially for high value guys.
^ That’s how I would summarize the video.
And he is using validation… instead of “emotion.” Is she emotionally invested? That is a “normal person” might make his point.
The whole set up is a way for him to talk about “negs,” which he calls “negative spikes.” Jesus, what a “circus” of thoughts.
If I wanted to shake the kinks out:
— Be high value, or good luck
— Once you’re high value… show intent if you want things to go sexual
— All of this requires that you get her emotionally involved (so she cares, or notices)
— Negs are one way to do that…
Push/pull is a much better way to talk about this. Because “pull” can work too.
#OctopusGame
“you’re the source of validation for the girl” translation:
– She wants you
AKA you’re top guy and not bottom guy, aka you’re dominant and not supplicant, aka you lead and not follow, aka you know what she wants and do that instead of know knowing what she wants and doing that while still putting yourself first (this is not a mind trick), aka youre alpha and not beta, aka you know what you’re doing instead of fumbling around, aka you are abundant and non needy, etc.
Thousand ways of saying the same
That semi-famous NYC homeless guy who picks up 156 girls a year from daygame also seems to be following our #OctopusGame
https://youtu.be/suxKKn-DJeE?t=4m49s
It is the highest level of game like some gay was saying here. It is pure love and enjoyment of the woman and of femininity, rather than James Bond cold unattainable guy game. We flood the girl with so much pull she just follows like a little girl pleasing a real man.
lol, not some gay, I meant some guy, that was a beautifully funny typo!
I meant this post:
>>3) Zan Perrion/Rake game. Open and honest with almost no woman walking away with buyers remorse. This is the highest form of game in my mind. This is pursuit from a position of power. You overwhelm her.
Nice video, so the guy is homeless and stuff, questions for you to ponder on:
– When people are dealing with him, are they looking up to him or down to him?
– When he talks, is he like standing on a high podium and looking down to the world, or lost at the bottom and looking for guidance?
– Does he look like he could beat the shit out of you, or does he seem like an easy target to bully?
– If he would be standing still next to, say, Alex (4weeknatural), who would have more ‘pull’?
– When he’s talking to the girl, notice how he breaks the rapport and inserts a joke of having a huge dick?
Aka is this a bottom guy, or a top guy?
If he’s a top guy, the fact that he’s homeless makes it a bargain for certain type of girl. You know how girls like bargains. Great value! discounted price!
Also he’s an addict and is preaching like he’s Jesus – add dark triads to the mix.
What he’s not doing for sure is ‘overwhelming the girls with attention’
Look, I agree with Tyler on this point: the self is always coming through.
My reality is stronger than the girl’s. I am Alpha/Top Guy to her.
Even if OctopusGame isn’t what a Top Guy should do, it’s a flaw that make us as Top Guys more attainable.
Attainability is important. You can lose girls if you are too Top Guy.
OctopusGame is game for Top Guys who come from the women lover frame who is more attainable and therefore gets more results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3sOxkzl5E
Alex sucks balls – but here’s his interpretation of “swing your dick, pay attention to what she responds to, double down”
Hey man, I’m Morten Hake, and I’d be glad to share Paul’s speach. Just hit me up and I’ll PM the private video :)
Tyler too has a video that I think is explaining what Yohami is talking about:
https://youtu.be/urwoHocvW6A?t=1h14m53s
Yep, great find.
The whole video is about how to calibrate to the girl, so worth watching in its entirety.
Yohami,
If I got you correctly, definition of Top Guy is a frame in game to be the center, the buyer, the prize, expressed in BL, language and all other subtle cues.
Alpha instead is more than a frame but a status backed by social facts, i.e. the Alpha male has male (and sometimes but often enough not*) female followers, employees, betas.
[*e.g. the CEO who’s shit with women, has no game, only power]
Top Guy instead has female followers (girls throwing themselves at him) and may or may not have also a top position at work and in social circle. Usually he has but maybe Chulo’s successful fuck boy can be seen an example: women want to fuck him but at work he sucks.
What both, TG and A have in common is they LEAD and DOMINATE, at least in their ‘home domain’.
When reading game stuff, I disliked this idea and thought I can become good with women just through technique.
Of course, doesn’t work.
So today I not only learnt leading (still working on the domination bits) brings results but I see the beauty in it, in the roles within the male/female polarity model. Yes, leading is more effort than following, in game or at work, because you and no one else is responsible. Sure the reason so many people (and wannabe players, alphas, top guys) try to avoid it and rather complain.
Once I accepted and pursued these leader traits, not only I got hotter girls but also more success at work.
But, and this is my actual question:
does the top guy/alpha also need to WIN all the times, in the sense of the opponent losing? Like in ‘ the Harvard Negotiation Model’ of win-win is bullshit because there’s always one and only one winner in one or many losers.
Or, like being right. You or Chulo ;)
Of course, in the case of game, it is indeed win-win: The girl actually craves for being led and dominated, penetrated on all levels, so both top guy and girl are happy.
But outside game, at work, with other guys, in life in general? Or, specifically:
Must I give up my child-like, sensitive artist (when I attended a Steven Covey event paid by the company, I came up with my personal mission as ‘For A World Of Beauty And Greatness’:) which means taking life, other people and myself not 100% serious, in order to become a Top Guy with the killer habits who ALWAYS wants to win and kill and is dead serious about it and himself.
In other words: I don’t care much about losing face because I don’t give a shit (in most situations) but a TG/A must, doesn’t he?
Hey man.
Check out this comment: http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/paul-janka-escalation-lmr-free-ebook-download/#comment-3029
Specifically pay attention to the relationship of inner frame and context. You can disassociate them, but they usually end up in sync, because the reality loop makes you so.
“Top Guy vs Alpha”
They are the same thing.
It’s about how you face reality and what kind of feedback reality throws back at you, and how you handle that loop.
Or, where’s your behavior coming from, and how actually successful you are at it.
“When reading game stuff, I disliked this idea and thought I can become good with women just through technique. Of course, doesn’t work.”
Yep – this is what I hate about Game as a product. The mass of buyers are lost beta guys who want to get results without changing: so the Game sellers bend to create a product for them. It’s the six packs in six day thing and fad diets.
If you do what matters you can become good with women in weeks / months, not years. If you don’t see FAST progress you’re not doing what matters, and probably only doing superficial things while remaining broken at the core. FAST here doesn’t mean EASY. The HARD way is the FAST way, and the EASY way is the SLOW way. You don’t need thousands of approaches and keeping numbers and funnel and memorized lines – what you need is to change as a man. This is why Im using the Top Guy concept, because it’s something tangible you can check against. Who are you? where are you situated? what role are you playing? are you slave or owner, buyer or seller, in power or powerless, centered or offcenter, weak or strong, abundant or scarce?
If you’re in the wrong frame then all the technique is alien, counter-intuitive, unease, energy draining, out-of-this-worldly, etc. If you’re on the right frame all the technique is ‘aha!’ and second nature.
“Sure the reason so many people (and wannabe players, alphas, top guys) try to avoid it and rather complain.”
I think it’s the catch 22.
You get into game because you ARE the kind of man who is unattractive, and you have specific hungers and dreams and wants. So you want these satisfied.
But to actually get these things you need to become another man – thus leaving that man ‘hungry’. Instead of satiating the inferior man you kill the inferior man. That’s not what the inferior man wants. And the inferior man is in charge learning Game.
So there’s where guys spend years doing minuscule progress. Teaching the inferior man to act like a superior man, instead of clearing the board and starting with the right foot.
“Once I accepted and pursued these leader traits, not only I got hotter girls but also more success at work.”
YES.
“does the top guy/alpha also need to WIN all the times, in the sense of the opponent losing?”
It depends.
If you are identified with the Game, like in sports, its ‘let the best man win’, and no matter who wins or loses, the Game wins, the game gets better, and you learn from each other. So the win / lose cedes to the win of the unified tribe.
If you’re identified with a tribe and it’s you vs another tribe, say, you vs pure evil, or you as a predator vs your food, then it’s a pure win / lose, and you must kill the adversary completely like it had never existed.
Then there’s the pure win / win negotiation. That’s when there’s no need to have anyone go down. Friendly matches, or buying groceries, etc.
“Harvard Negotiation Model”
In the Harvard negotiation model the pretty girl does lose – she no longer has the best offers thrown at her.
“You or Chulo ;)”
In this exchange its just his inferior man, or bottom guy, arguing against the idea of having to change, or “it scares him” to having to go up because then he would have to ‘fight other top men’ so he’s looking for more pleasant routes, and he thinks he can do Game as a service to women and ‘help them become sluts’ and stuff.
Which will fail.
So this is ‘the’ battle, in which bottom guy has to lose to top guy. Not me the top guy vs Chulo the bottom guy, but the top guy in Chulo defeating the bottom guy in Chulo, or his bottom guy conceding defeat to himself. Which hopefully will happen eventually.
There’s nothing as disgusting as an undefeated bottom guy.
So what would follow after his bottom guy is defeated is also a win – he’d be able to bang these girls and get stuff in his life done. Just that it would be a different man getting these things, not his actual mascara, not the one trying to find a way to survive now – but hi’s next incarnation, shape, frame, stage.
“Must I give up my child-like”
YES.
“sensitive artist ”
If it makes you weak, YES. It’s time to let it go.
It will come back, later. But you first need a foundation.
Your foundation can’t be a ‘child like artist sensitivity’.
Your foundation must be a MAN, who is THEN sensitive and child like as he pleases.
“‘For A World Of Beauty And Greatness’:)”
That sounds cool.
“which means taking life, other people and myself not 100% serious”
We’re all going to die, and then a billion years are going to pass and all of this was for nothing. So all of this is both a drama / tragedy and a comedy. So sure.
“in order to become a Top Guy with the killer habits who ALWAYS wants to win and kill and is dead serious about it and himself.”
Being Top Guy and “serious about himself’ are not the same thing. Zoom in.
When you see what you want, having it is ‘win” and not having it is ‘lose’.
Why wouldn’t you want to win?
Always?
[…] “Bang It Out With Paul Janka” hits many themes I’ve been hitting. You’ve also read about Paul Janka on Nash’s blog. […]