My new favorite “player” to study is a guy named Hans Comyn. He has a lot to say, but this post will focus on a concept where he describes the Three Phases of the Seducer. His thinking here helps map out some familiar behavior from guys that are just getting good with girls, a BIG SWITCH that happens at the Second Phase, and he points to a Third Phase… and that is an area I would like to understand better.
== UPDATE: Hans sent me a note about his book. For more info, see the COMMENTS.
Hans’ “Third Stage” is where I want to take my game.
As far as I understand, Hans Comyn runs a seduction coaching business, but before that he was a co-founder of Ars Amorata – a company he built with Zan Perrion. In the last few weeks I have been checking out their flavor of seduction and trying to integrate some of their ideas into my game. Their way of thinking is fertile ground for a man like me.
Let’s jump into the concept from Hans that really caught my attention. It’s from a talk he gave at the Morten Hake Summit in 2013. That talk is amazing. And the concept I want to highlight today is…
THE THREE PHASES OF THE SEDUCER.
— First Phase: “Does she like me?”
— Second Phase: “Do I like her?”
— Third Phase: “What do I need to do to make her feel beautiful?”
I know that last line might seem controversial… stick with me.
Think of those three phases as a possible trajectory for a seducer as he moves toward real mastery. That is how I see it. And the phases are an interesting diagnostic tool to see where you’re at as a man in your journey with women.
Below we’ll look at the types of questions we ask ourselves as we wrangle the women in our lives. Hans is very insightful when he points out that the type of questions you ask yourself will be different… depending on your “phase” as a Man of Game.
I have been studying game for a long time. When I first got started, I needed basic “how to” information. As I get better, I see the limitations in the advice I was given when I was a beginner. Some steps you take as a beginner or intermediate will hold you back as you move “deep inside” seduction.
It has been a goal of mine for a while to help move our conversations as men past “beginner” commentary. There will always be beginners (and beginner lessons are important too), but for those of us that make it past those “brute force” early days of self-change… the conversation needs more nuance. Men like Hans can give beyond-beginner guys some of what they’re missing.
I want to be able to write about some concepts that are a bit “hippy.” But I also know (and appreciate) where “normal” guys are at. We don’t need a bunch of hippy “nice guy” talk or unnecessary spirituality. I would agree with that. “Sensitive New Age Guys” (SNAGs) are fucking boring, and they mostly suck with girls, and I am NOT going in that direction.
With that said… at the upper levels of game… I am convinced that the mindset of the “locker room” is not enough. That is “sophomoric” game. At the upper levels, I am seeing (over and over) that “hippy technology” has a lot to offer advanced seducers.
I want to reach higher, but I DO want to keep this conversation as grounded as I can. So let’s keep our eye on the ball, some place where I know all of us – noobs to Romeos – are all in agreement…
We want sex.
So I will talk about some “hippy tech” here, but I promise to keep this grounded in good old fashioned, red-blooded, male sexuality.
Disclaimer is over. Let’s move on.
Imagine – if you will – a continuum of men that get laid a lot. We’re not talking about beginners. We’re talking about men that have already proven themselves… and we’re recognizing they have different styles of how they go about getting what they want in mating and dating.
Perhaps at one end of the continuum we’d have the “conquerors,” and at the other end, we’d have the “lovers.” Different styles.
If you think exclusively of your own pleasure and you value “taking the notch” above all else, maybe you have more of a “conqueror” vibe. That’s valid. If, on the other hand, you are very into a lot of sex, but you have more of a romantic streak in your game… I’d say that is more of a “lover” vibe.
This is Genghis Khan (conqueror) vs Casanova (lover). Both kinds of men can be tremendously successful with women. One is not better than the other. And in certain circumstances, I admire the skills of each group.
Now… as we return to the thrust of this post: Hans is focused on this “lover of women” style game. And so am I. You might interpret the rest of this post in that light.
The conqueror/lover distinction will become more interesting when we start to differentiate between Hans’ Second Phase and Third Phase.
I respect getting the notch very much – that it still a goal of mine. But I also specifically want to distinguish myself on the “lover” spectrum – I want to be a seducer. And to be “seductive” implies something more than just taking notches by any means necessary. It’s a qualitative distinction. That feels true for me.
I happen to be convinced that the conqueror type lacks a certain sensitivity… so he’ll miss things. He’ll “fail to unlock” certain situations. He will out-perform the lover in some areas… but he will fail in moments that require finesse.
That is where I think that type of man is especially weak. Hans has guidance here that might help us capture more of what the conqueror types miss.
As I have been through my own experiences with women, I have been looking for the “keys” to unlock some of these situations. And I have been handed some of these “keys” through the lessons of Yohami and others. I have accidentally discovered some of these lessons via my own “skin in the game” (the Gods know I am “in field” enough). And I feel like I am on the threshold of some new breakthroughs…
And Hans is the kind of seducer that can show men like me a way forward.
Here we go… let’s get into it.
“I see a lot of guys, when we’re exploring seduction, I see a lot of guys go through three phases. It is good to try to think, ‘what phase am I in? And where am I going?'”
— Hans Comyn
We already laid out the basic outline to Hans Comyn’s “Three Phases” above. Now we’ll get into deeper description of those stages.
And while we are here, I like Hans’ eye for diagnostics: “What phase am I in? And where am I going?” This is an interesting framework to begin to see how men at different stages of knowledge and experience (and inner game) might try to answer those questions.
FIRST PHASE: “Does she like me?”
“The first phase of seduction is this: You look at girls, and you say, ‘ahhh, that girl is great… what can I do to have her like me.’ Does she like me? What can I do that she would like me more? It’s a very fear based way of interacting with her. You try to find ways so she will like you more. Does she like me? Does she like me? It’s a very fear based question, ‘does she like me?'”
— Hans Comyn
Ahhh, yes. Almost every man knows this stage well. I have earned my way past this phase, but I certainly remember asking that kind of question. I am intimately familiar with that stage.
And while I have already set some context in this post around seduction, let’s return to my promise to keep this conversation grounded in our desire as men for sex.
We want to get laid. Let’s assume we all want to fuck – the conqueror and the lover have that basic goal in common. More sex. Better sex. More variety of sexual partners. Something like that… and more.
A man in the First Phase of seduction is trying to get sex to happen, in the most basic sense. He is trying to start the process. He isn’t “optimizing his sex life.” He is trying to go from “no sex” to “some sex.”
The questions in his life might include: Does she like me? How do I make her like me? What can I do to get the girl? How do I get that specific girl? There is girl I know, what do I say to get her to like me? What is the best pickup line? What is the best text to get her to come on a date with me? What kind of dates do girls like? Does she want me to hold her hand? Does she want me to kiss her? How do I know if she wants me to kiss her? Is it okay if I take her shirt off? Can I reach between her thighs? Can I fuck her? Can I tell her to suck my dick? Can her I ask her to sleep over? Would she like that? Does she want to see me again?
You’ll notice (or perhaps you did not?), all of those questions revolve around her. They are from her point of view.
When you ask questions from HER point of view, you are not the center of your world… she is the center of your world. And that puts you in second place in your own life. That’s not a healthy start for a man in general, and it certainly won’t help you be more successful with women.
Here is an example:
THE PLAYER: Why is she not returning my texts?
This kind of question is fundamentally about her. Can you see that? There is a lot of neediness in questions like this. No disrespect (I’ve been there), but that is true.
Hans says it’s “fear based” and that’s an interesting way to put it. First Phase men are likely more nervous than more advanced men. They likely talk to fewer women, have less contact with women, live in a state of scarcity more than latter-phase guys do. This tells us about the guy’s background, but also about how women see him.
Moving from the First Phase to the Second Phase will mean putting yourself at the center of your experience. Some measure of “self-centeredness” is healthy and normal. Self-respect is part of the shift here. But this isn’t about being selfish, not exactly.
It is a sign of development as a man (a proper man, a strong man, an attractive man) when he is the center of his world. When he moves to that phase, the form of the questions he asks will change.
We’ll see that as we move into the description of the Second Phase.
SECOND PHASE: “Do I like her?”
“Then… as you get a little more knowledge, experience, sharing with people, reading… we come to a stage where instead of, ‘Does she like me?’, we start asking ‘do I like her?’ We realize that it’s not about the girl anymore. That I first would have to do all the work on myself. You see a whole shift to inner game. Self-development. Masculinity. I have to stand tall. Independent of the girl. The girl is almost optional. I have to get my life in order. My purpose. My passion. I have to have self-worth. Very important phase. It is completely necessary, as a seducer… to go in that phase.”
— Hans Comyn
The phase that Hans is describing here represents a huge shift in a man’s thinking. And Hans is showing rare and compelling insight when he so clearly spells this out for us.
Let’s return to our motivation: We want sex. We want more than that, but we still want sex. And we’ll want it in the Third Phase too. It’s a healthy, beautiful thing to want sex, and that time with women. We are moving toward that.
We are still after sex, but the nature of our questions has changed.
The questions in this stage sound more like: Do I like her? What do I want? What kind of girl do I want? How can I create the relationships I want in my life? What can I do to generate choices in my life that satisfy me? Of those choices, which best serve what I need and want? Of those things in my life that work for me, what can I do to maintain them, so I can enjoy them in an ongoing way? If things in my life that I love come and go, what can I do to find that next thing that brings me satisfaction? Even when I don’t have all the access to women that I want, how I do hold my head high, live “chest out,” and feel proud about where I am at as a man? When I do have access, how do I take things deeper, so I can enjoy them even more?
Compare that set of questions to the thoughts that run through a First Phase male’s mind. Very different inquiries.
Here is an example:
THE PLAYER: This girl isn’t very responsive… do I really want to spend my time pursuing her?
The questions of a Second Phase man come naturally when a man has put himself at the center of his world. And they don’t sound horribly selfish, do they? Not to me. They are sensible. They are wise. And they are also strong. From this position, not only will you take better care of yourself, and make better choices about women, but you will also be more attractive (as a BYPRODUCT of all the real work you have done as you focus on yourself, and grow, and do it all for you).
The lesson of this stage is to think from your own perspective. It’s “do I like her?” “Is she the kind of girl that I want to spend my time with?” “Is she the kind of girl that will treat me how I want to be treated?” “If I brought her into my life, would it be good for me?”
Very different questions.
A man that thinks like this is more attractive to women. But… if you’re thinking about her approval at this point, if you’re doing all this for her… you’re likely still First Phase. This shift is not a “technique” for First Phase guys to “win the girl” (that whole way of thinking belongs back in the First Phase).
You do all this for yourself. With yourself in mind. Self-respect. And as a byproduct of being a “centered” man, women will likely find you more attractive.
Be attractive. Build your value (and do it for you, not the girls). Do your job as a man and “initiate the dance” with girls… approach, lead, escalate. And when you do all that from the perspective of a Second Phase man, she will often feel a strength in you that First Stage men haven’t earned.
It is ironic that the Second Phase Man has answered the questions of the First Stage Man (“What can I do to get her to like me?”)… by not asking those kinds of questions at all.
THIRD STAGE: “What do I need to do to make her feel beautiful?”
Now… we go into the Third Stage. And this is territory I have seen before, but Hans is making this space more real for me with the solidity of his theories here.
If you think this stage is harder to understand (or appreciate), I agree. In part, as I’ve almost never heard a Man of Game talk about this before. This section is why I bothered to write this post. This… is the most important part of the discussion for me.
Maybe men don’t talk about this very often. But when they do… are your ears ready to take it all in?
“There is a third phase, it is, you’re in a seduction and you are no longer asking ‘does she like me?’ You’re not asking, ‘do I like her?’ But that you ask yourself… ‘what can I do, to make her shine?’ ‘What is my role, in this seduction, so she can be beautiful?’ It is a shift in perspective that we very rarely go to. It is a shift in perspective that is very needed if we want to advance the art of seduction. It is very needed for your own development, that you stop thinking about you.”
— Hans Comyn
I agree. And I am impressed by this man’s ideas.
But first, let’s revisit our motivation once more. This is not “White Knight” stuff. This is not “Purple Pill” (or it doesn’t have to be). What did we say our motivation was? We want to get laid. That’s right. We are unapologetically sexual Men of Game. Let’s assume that is still our goal (it is still my goal). I want to fuck. We are still moving in that direction. Let’s open our minds and keep going…
If we want to get laid, what does moving into the Third Phase do for us? Let’s look at our questions…
The questions from the Third Stage might be: What do I need to do to make her feel beautiful? What does she need to relax? What can’t she see about herself that would make her glow? What makes her feel sexy? What opens her heart? What fantasies does she need to explore? What does she need to feel to have the experience of a lifetime? What makes her melt? What does she need to feel such that she can shine for me? What does she need to feel so she can surrender to me… and really let herself “go?” What would the experience be that would make her more than eager to come back and do it all again?
Now we are asking radically different questions. These are not the questions of the conqueror. This is high-end seduction. This is where I want to be.
THE PLAYER: She seems unsure, uncertain of our next steps together… what does she need?
This post is my interpretation of Hans’ theory… but I believe I am on the right track here.
And now, from a different source, here is a girl saying something that plays very well with the lessons of the Third Phase:
“If he takes you someplace you want to go, then you can surrender to him. A lot of men don’t know where they are going. They’re not that attuned to you. They don’t necessarily care how it is for you, they are way too selfish. There is something that just doesn’t happen.”
— Patricia Albere
What “doesn’t happen?” You don’t get laid… that’s what. It’s more than that… but if we stick to our motivation, Hans is giving you the keys to unlocking some of this “more” with women.
“You can tell that a lot of times men just want what they want, and they want you to show up in a way that they can get off on the whole situation, and it’s not too much of a turn on for women. You kind of know if the man is actually really connected and wants something to happen for both of you.”
— Patricia Albere
Read that ^ again. I hear that as her calling out for a Third Phase experience… she is pointing to an absence of Third Stage seduction. I know I have made women feel that way before.
Hans is not pointing to a “sexual technique” – this is bigger than that. There could be some sexual technique here, but this is about a range of vision that is much more powerful and interesting than “make sure you lick her clit before you hit it doggy style” – we are going beyond “beginner talk” here.
As I see it, there are a lot of pieces coming together in this discussion.
“How do we make her shine?”
When Patricia says – “The man is actually really connected and wants something to happen for both of you” – making her feel “connected” may be one of many ways you might “make her feel beautiful.” There are likely an infinite number of ways to do this (some universal, some… particular to the girl). But the first step in beginning to consider this territory… is to begin asking these kinds of questions.
Here is a question:
THE PLAYER: If I could make her really feel like she was shining… how hot would this night get for both of us?
It’s not about a sexual technique, nor is about putting her on a pedestal like a clueless Disney guy. Even if you’re almost completely self-centered, you can learn from this concept.
Patricia adds a great component when she says “both.” When a girl can feel that you are conducting the moment such that you “want something to happen for both of you” – you might see that girl “shine.” When she feels like she is shining… you might get laid more.
She might feel “beautiful” in those conditions. You might unlock her. You might move toward really “opening” her to you… and the intentions you have for your time together. And you might see a girl surrender into you in a way you’ve missed in the earlier stages of your journey.
I’m not saying this is easy to understand. And it’s definitely not easy to implement. But imagine if we started thinking like this… starting to find solutions at this level… and imagine if we had some of this level of skill the next time we found ourselves in a moment of “last minute resistance.”
Last Minute Resistance (LMR) is the hottest part of game for me at this stage of my personal journey. I am really changing how I handle myself in those moments when it comes time to bring a girl across the threshold for sex. And I can feel the difference in how I negotiate those situations… and I can see the results. The girls are much happier. I’m doing a much better job. The sex is better.
And I will boldly claim that this “both” mentality is part of the secret to unlocking LMR.
LMR is not a perfectly linear, “cause and effect” kind of thing. It’s sure as fuck not about “freeze outs.” It’s not so much about how many dates you’ve been on with the girl (first, or third, or whatever). It’s not “do more comfort, bro… she needs comfort, bro.” That’s all “beginner” stuff.
“If he takes you someplace you want to go, then you can surrender to him.”
— Patricia Albere
This ^ my brothers… is part of the secret to unlocking LMR. And the mindset it takes to lead a woman like this… seems very much inline with Hans’ Third Phase.
Are you driving the night toward “claiming your notch?” That might be a perfect strategy… if that is a place she wants to go and she can feel it, each step of the way. If she’s not feeling it… don’t expect her to surrender to you… and don’t expect to get laid.
And if you could make the goal something a little more elevated than “I want to bang this girl,” if you could make her feel so beautiful she wanted “show you more” of herself… I bet opening her legs would be easy at that point.
Can you see where I am going here? I am trying to bring this conversation up a level. I am trying to follow Hans in that direction.
Do you have the talent as a seducer to make her feel as if her heart was open to you? That question may sound ridiculous to you, but this is a cooperative enterprise… if that is what she needs, can you give it to her? I don’t think the conqueror type asks himself this kind of question, so he can’t learn those skills, and he will “next” girls he fails to lead in this way… as he’s too “meathead seduction” to get to the next level.
If you can “take her someplace she wants to go”… if you can “open her heart”… if you can “make her feel beautiful”… you will be more likely to get your “notch.” And I want that notch.
But I also want… more. And I bet we’ll get that too if we follow Hans down this path.
“It looks – this phase – it looks a little like the first phase, because now I am asking again, ‘what does she need to be seduced?’ But it is now ‘love based.’ It’s no more fear based, it is not out of fear, ‘I am going to lose her.’ No.”
— Hans Comyn
In this quote ^, there is some perfect juxtaposition of the First and Third stages.
We said First Phase men are focused on her, that they are likely not that great with women, and they come from a fear of “loss” or scarcity around women. They over-cook each lead, as they don’t have enough access to women, so each new opportunity is “too important.” They aren’t bold, as they haven’t had a lot of success and they are afraid they will “say something wrong” and then “she won’t like me.” They haven’t put themselves first in their own life. They haven’t built up their game – and their value – to a place where they go out and meet women easily.
And in the Second Phase, much of the work that the First Phase man needs has already been completed – this is how he gets into that Second Phase. He has been asking the right questions. He has built himself up as a man. He has proven himself… in life and in the sexual marketplace. His inner game is better and thus his confidence is based in reality and he comes off sure of himself and genuine in social situations. He knows more women and his reference experiences are better. He may not have “abundance,” but he knows what opportunity likes like, and he knows how to create it. His life is more full.
And as a man moves into the Third Phase, since his life is more full… he has more to “give.” This is part of what makes a man naturally attractive. This kind of giving is getting at the essence of Third Phase men. You can see that “giving” as he shifts (again) from Phase Two to Phase Three… you can see it in the types of questions he might ask himself when he is getting closer to a girl.
He is stronger.
When Hans says “it is now ‘love based,'” that gets kind of “woo” and hippy, but I think we can replace “love” with “strength” – “it is now ‘strength based'” – and the statement is easier to encompass into male psychology.
You are now so “strong,” you have so much more to give, that you can move past Second Phase “self-centeredness,” past focusing on yourself, into a more generous position. And that generosity (that sense of “both” you and the girl) is… very, very attractive.
The Third Phase has all the basic needs of the First Phase (those are essential needs shared by all men). The Second Phase man has added strength and self-esteem and experience. From there the seducer moves on… and the Third Phase looks like a generous strength.
Your generosity in the Third Phase… your generosity with the girl… that part of your attention that is focused on where she is at, what she needs, what “higher level” experience would rock her open to the potential of your night together… all this (and more) makes you a better seducer.
As a Third Stage man, you can not only takes care of your own needs, but you can manage her needs too. You can predict them. You can lead her to glory (“take her someplace she wants to go”) before she can even anticipate it. You can fill holes she didn’t know she had (pun intended).
Sound attractive? I think so.
Is this “common knowledge?” Nope. This is an uncommon approach to women… because most men never make it this far.
I believe Hans is exactly right. It’s fucking excellent game. And this kind of mindset represents a quantum shift “upward” in terms of your skills and potential as a seducer. This kind of game will leave the conquerors in the dust and unlock categories of women that would never surrender to those men.
Go Team Seduction.
Big props to Hans for being capable of articulating all this. I am so impressed.
Here’s a couple more bites at this. Also a little “hippy,” but think on it for a second.
“Most women have never felt they met someone who knows them deeper than they know themselves. Because the third-stage man is vulnerable consciousness, he feels her deeper than she could feel herself. He feels her yearning heart and meets her at a deeper place than she could feel herself, deeper than she expected – that is ravishment.”
— David Deida
I warned you that this post was going to utilize some psychological “hippy technology.” This is what I meant. Stay with me.
This quote above is from Deida’s model of men. David is using the concept “Third Stage” (not Hans’ “Third Phase”) but, you might notice it looks very similar to Hans’ model. It’s more general… more about the men… less customized to seduction… but it follows the same arch.
What would it feel like from the girl’s point of view… to be taken “deeper” than she can take herself?
If you could do that… do you think you might get laid more? What if you could learn how to step up your game, learn to give women an experience that made them feel eager to “open” to you, and as a consequence… you got laid more?
“A great tango dancer can make a woman who never danced, he can make her shine. He can make her look like she is incredible. That is what a seducer does.”
— Hans Comyn
I am convinced these men (Hans and Deida both) know the way. Hippy tech… it’s got some potency.
At this level, of course it isn’t about a “hack” (beginner stuff). And it’s not about a “pickup line.” All the gimmicks (if they belong anywhere) are left behind in the early stages. This isn’t about wearing a mask that makes you look like a deeper guy… it’s about being a deeper guy. We are still horny, sexy, dirty, powerful… but we’re more skillful in how we roll it all out.
“It’s not only as a protagonist, meaning, ‘how can I play my role perfectly here, that I am a great dancer with her.’ It is almost like you have a third perspective – it is the perspective of a director. You are no longer just a protagonist, an actor, playing your part perfectly. But you now also play the role of the director. You see the whole thing happening. And you say, as a protagonist, ‘this is my role.’ And also, ‘for her to shine, this needs to happen, and I need to do this.’ It’s a different way of thinking.”
— Hans Comyn
This “director” point of view is excellent.
You recognize your needs (First Phase). You play your role perfectly (Second Phase). But you also see her needs, and “direct” the action (both your role and hers) in such a way that the experience is “higher level” for “both” of you. That is Third Phase.
You can see/feel all of the roles. You orchestrate the whole thing. You want your notch, but you want to feel glorious as you take it, and you want her to feel glorious as she gives it to you.
Glorious. For both of you. Can you “seduce” at this level?
I really want to be excellent at this… I want to be a great seducer. This is the way forward. This is what I need to learn.
The Three Phases of the Seducer. What a hot concept.
I place myself firmly in the middle of the Second Phase. And if you’ve read my stories about the Mormon Virgin or Miss Bangs or even how I handled Baby Dragon, you might see hints of me moving into the Third Phase. It was there (in a way) after my grotty nightgame lay in Shanghai, as I got her back to her hotel, put her in bed, shut the lights off, let myself out. It was there again in the way I cared for Miss Compliant (the virgin I closed in Japan). And it was there in in each step with the girl I closed on my 2nd to last night in Sapporo (which I never wrote about).
More and more, this “maximizing the potential for both,” this “generous strength,” this “director’s role” where a man orchestrates the whole scene so everyone gets “more” – this is the path I want to be on. This is the man I want to be.
“You can present yourself to the world and hold your own. Now you have the strength to make another person shine. It is so rewarding. The faster you get to that stage the faster you will grow.”
— Hans Comyn
I want to grow as a seducer. Hans is showing me the way.
But even if you center this pursuit around the idea of more explosive orgasms… better fucking… even if that is where it begins and ends for you… this path will get you there… and a whole lot more.
I have had some “Third Phase” sex with girls in the last few years. And “not-so-deep” sex can be really good too, I get it. But my experience has shown me that I’ll get more sex, and deeper sex, and better sex… as I take on Third Phase responsibility, as I master that role of leadership, generosity, and strength.
I am more than convinced that our “lower motives” – of sex, sex with new girls, sex with lots of girls – can be served via “upper motives” like what Hans is pointing to here. I don’t think conquerors can see that… and they will miss the opportunities that are available to the best seducers that focus on the craft of being an excellent “lover” of women.
Thank you, Hans. Wow. I am so inspired.
May we find good experiences. May we give the girls good experiences (that is very Third Stage thinking). May we all be entertained.