Types, Truth, Bad Vibes, and the Redpill Attachment Style
At the level of theory, the theme of the year for me is that we are different Types of men, we want different Types of girls, and the Context in which a given man tries to accomplish his goals is crucial to making sense of given situation. We are not all the same (NAMALT/NAWALT) and Types matter a lot. I’ll talk about Types here in a way that is helping me navigate some of the ideas in the sexual marketplace.
As the headline might indicate, I’m going to take aim at the Redpill scene. Depending on your Type, there are different Truths to be found, but the “Harsh Truth” Type of Redpiller sees the world in a distinct way. And alternative Truths are at the heart of this essay.
I got into it with some guy I’ll call Mr Anxiety, a 2nd-tier Redpill preacher type that loves Harsh Truths. Some guys around him thought I was avoiding a debate. One messaged me saying “I am trying to get an idea of who is right.” I wrote this post to work through my thoughts on these topics.
Here is where it went sideways with Mr Anxiety and I:
“The anxiety that comes with the insecurity of the relationship is what drives her to sexual desire.”
— Mr Anxiety
What do you think of that statement? Do you think it’s true? Is that a Harsh Truth we need to accept? If it is true for you and the girls you date, I’d stop here and say that says more about you (and those girls) than the rest of the world. You’re not wrong… you’re just a certain Type.
For my part, I think that is completely ridiculous bullshit. But I am hearing it more and more in the ‘Sphere. If the Redpill guys want to bond over their Harsh Truths, good for them. But as they begin to prescribe next steps in Seduction, the fatal flaws of that scene are easier to see.
Most of the lessons men need have been around as long as men have. Masculinity, Dominance, Seduction, etc. are all timeless Schools of education for men.
The uniquely Redpill concepts that are of any use at all seem to work to teach men Defense in relationships. Beyond that, the Redpillers seem particularly inept when it comes to theory about being enticing, about actually attracting women, about getting past theory and bringing quality women into a man’s life. Mr Anxiety is one such example.
I don’t think it’s controversial at all to say that their Harsh Truths and Intimacy with girls don’t pair well. The Harsh Truthers can warn you. They can tell you a lot of “scary stories.” They can lecture you on how to assume the Defensive Crouch against “the Female Imperative.” But does any of that help you bringing women into your life?
If you’re taking Game advice from the Harsh Truthers, I think it’s the kind of advice that will specifically lead you in the wrong direction, but… I suppose it depends on your Type.
BLUEPILL/REDPILL:
Bluepill/Redpill… too simple. And while we argue less about Bluepill, the term Redpill is increasingly meaningless. It is an attempt at “typing” (which we need), but it’s too “low resolution” to be useful to me at this point in my life. I’ll run through my take here for some context.
I take Bluepill to be something like the romantic narrative of many 80s movies. This is where a low value guy does foolishly romantic things, which don’t work well at first, but over time, the girl decides that the low value guy is attractive, she gives the guy an “A for effort”, and the guy gets the girl. That’s the plot of many movies, but it’s not how life works. Almost everyone reading this should know that.
As Men of Game, we can pick on Bluepillers pretty easily and say that those men are all “pull” and not enough “push.”
Push/pull is a core concept in Game and I won’t try to go over it now, but we can see that it hints at a type of Balance. A balanced man is attractive. He has some edge, but not only edge. He can show some care and genuine interest in a girl… but not only care and interest. Balance.
Balance is an essential ingredient in understanding success with women.
In contrast to Bluepill, Redpill is supposed to be “seeing the world as it is.” So far so good.
Some guys think this means embracing “Harsh Truths.” And I can be on-board with some of that too. But if certain guys insist that we focus on the “harshness” of our opportunities, I think those guys are signally very clearly about their Type. I also think they have eclipsed the Truth, and are ideologues for something that should not be confused with Truth at all.
Yes, life if full of harshness, no doubt. But not only harshness. Anyone that insists on a constant mediation on “harshness” is signaling what they are – the rejected MGTOWs, the angriest of the divorced men, etc. The Redpill has special appeal for these men. No disrespect for people navigating trauma, but I don’t look to them for leadership… certainly not in Seduction or Game.
Often, the view that something is “Harsh” to a given man is a sign he is unprepared – thus he feels the environment as Harsh. It’s not the environment, it’s the man.
Imagine being at sea. If you’re not prepared, your life is in danger. If you are prepared… it could be a hysterically fun time. The situation (The Truth) is neither good/bad. “Not all days at sea are like that” – rather obvious, isn’t it. And your individual preparedness as a man (and your Type), can make all the difference.
Is life still terribly Harsh? For some Types, maybe. For me, I don’t think so. I am talking about women. And a lot of us are having a lot of fun. Harsh isn’t the reality we cling to.
The best of Redpill seems to want to make men more prepared, and I recognize some good intentions there… but I am convinced we can find better teachers. For example, Classical Masculinity teaches men to be Strong, Disciplined, to have Boundaries, to Lead. Game teaches Seduction, Charm… how to bring women into your life. There is a Confidence in these Schools. It’s about getting what you want… with less emphasis on “be careful, be careful!!!!”
In current times, I’m of the opinion that Redpill sentiment is mostly about “Defense” and how to “protect yourself from the very dangerous womenz” out there. Defense. Not so much “how to win” as “how to avoid losing.” Defense, as in how to avoid “divorce rape” or weaponized “consent,” etc.
Divorced guys seem particular enthusiastic for Redpill… I think they wished they had better Defense and they think Redpill Harshness would have helped. Maybe it would have… but none of this is Seduction or Game or Desire. It’s Defense. If you get that, you’ll know when they might be useful and when… you could choose better role models.
Most of what the Redpill guys claim as the Truth can be found via Masculinity, Game, and Evolutionary Psychology. The parts that are particular to Redpill, the memes that show up over and over, are the Harsh Truths and the Defensive Crouch. Take a look at what is underneath the most popular themes – Redpill is mostly about “how to say no.” If it doesn’t sound sexy, it’s because it’s Anti-game.
These guys are have too much “Be Careful!,” and not enough “Hey, Little Girl, c’mere.” Can you feel the difference?
The Redpill guys LARP about with their Harsh Truths. They will tell you endless stories of guys that “drown in boating adventures.” “The sea… so dangerous.” (You don’t see negative stories like this in Game). And Harsh Redpillers will insist that “all oceans are like that.” They talk tough… they know the “Truth”… but I’m not convinced they have become particularly good at adventures. Have they? They may convince you to stay home, but can they get you where you want to go?
When we’re ready to bring women into our lives, Game is the School. Better tactics… and a much better vibe.
I was once unprepared. I was too “earnest” when I was younger. No shame in any of this. Unprepared men have some lame ideas about how the world works. They get burned. More often, they get nothing at all.
I hate to see these guys settle into the paranoid Defensive of Redpill. There are better, richer “Truths” out there. And I’m not guessing.
I am a pickup guy. I have dated hundreds and hundreds of girls via cold approach and daygame. I don’t get what I want all the time and I don’t know any man that does. But I got better. I can and do create “action” all the time. Maybe the world is still Harsh, but now that I am prepared, it rarely feels that way to me anymore.
I say this last part about my history as a Player not to brag… but to make it clear that men like me don’t resemble Bluepill guys. What we call Bluepillers can’t do what competent Players and daygamers can do. And my history shows I’m a competent daygamer.
So… if I’m not naive and ineffective like a Bluepiller, but I reject the traumatized harshness of Redpill guys… I think I’m ready to open this conversation up to some fresh air.
ON BEING A LOVER:
Here on this blog I often represent a Type of Game with a lot of Romance to it. There are other Types in Game, but this is my Type.
We have already pushed “80s movie” Bluepill Romance aside – that is not what I am talking about. Here, I’ll suggest the kind of Romance that reminds us of Casanova. If you think Romance makes Casanova a Bluepiller, I think that idea makes you a meathead… and we can move on.
I like this Type of Game, and the girls that like me also like it. I have seen some very happy girls.
I don’t think of anything that I do as “Redpill.” I studied other Schools of thought and none of my success was inspired by Redpill at all. I learned success with women from Confident, Positive, Attractive Schools of Game. And I got better. It works.
I like the term Lover. It’s an old term. The Lover is a Type that sees the sexual marketplace a certain way. I tend to think the French and Italians have a culture that is more encouraging of this kind of “Warm” game.
Is that Bluepill? By definition I’d say no. Being able to create action for yourself – with new girls, often several at a time – is hard and requires insight and skill with women. No one thinks Bluepill men have those skills.
There is plenty of room in the space between men and women for Warmth. I say all this to help steer some guys away from the Harsh Truth dogma. There are better ways to see the world.
The Romantic/Lover Type wants extraordinary experiences. He wants them for himself. And he wants them for her. And he can do it. He has proven it many times. The girls that get onboard, are deeply appreciative. They are really into it. I’m not guessing, I have done all this. Lots of men have. It’s an old tradition.
Types matter and a Romantic Type attracts a Romantic Type (or a girl that is open to that). He can give a girl a sense of being a Princess, but she is clear he is a King. When you have Balance, all of this works out just fine. Not overly “Harsh,” is it?
This isn’t for everybody, but it’s a workable model and it runs on Bliss, Admiration, Sexuality, Enthusiasm. Once we have good boundaries in place, we rarely need anything Harsh at all – that whole concept is a dark alley, a distraction from the upside of the sexual marketplace. There is an upside.
Historically, the Lover Types have done phenomenally well with women – arguably better than almost all other men. They have had a LOT of sexual experiences with a lot of women, and the women have praised them for those experiences. It’s a win-win view of mating and dating.
In the Harsh-Only World of the Redpill guys, any talk of joy with women will mean you’ll get labeled “Purplepill.” Per the Redpiller, the main determinant of Purplepill status seems to be that the man doesn’t see the world as sufficiently Harsh. They will call you Purplepill if you don’t sufficiently cling to Harsh interpretations and focus on Defensive concepts. Too boring. Unnecessary. Unbalanced.
When it comes to bringing women into your life… you have choices these men don’t recognize. The Patriarchs and the Classically Masculine men are on a path with women that works. They are attractive men and they don’t talk like Redpillers. The path of the Seducer, the Romancer, the Lover… is a proven path. Very successful path. There are others. Lots of choices.
If Desire is really what you want to get better at… who knows Desire best?
VIBRATION = “THE VIBE:”
So a guy named Pat Stedman wrote an interesting post recently that touches on a lot of the issues I am writing about here. Pat and I don’t agree about everything (I think he and I want different things), but I find a lot of his thinking fresh and interesting.
Pat seems to be “post-game” in terms of picking up, he’s into the Game of relationships. And as he has different goals, he has different tools.
If simple, common men share the language of the Locker Room, that is a good place for all of us to start. Pat can relate. So can I.
One of the things I like about Pat is that he goes beyond the basic wisdom of the Locker Room and incorporates Tools from Psychology and Intimacy. As I have no better way to express it, I call all that stuff “Hippy Technology.” Other guys have called it “Wooo-Wooo.” Calling it “Hippy” or “Woo” is a way of saying, “I know this isn’t typical ‘bro,'” – but take a listen. Hippy Tech can sound a little “airy” versus the brick-and-earth familiarity of Locker Room talk. But especially as you get deeper into Game (as you have “higher goals”), the Hippy Types have some very powerful ideas to share.
There is a lot of Truth at the level of the Locker Room and from the best of the Hippy Tech. I don’t expect basic guys to get excited about Hippy concepts – they are still looking for “the perfect pickup line.” And as we’re all different Types, some guys struggle with terms they don’t understand. I’ll try to connect the dots on one such misunderstanding here. It is a very good example of where the Locker Room and Hippy Tech start to overlap… and it sets us up to evaluate some claims the Redpill Harsh Truthers make.
“Have you ever entered a room filled [with] a bunch of people and felt uncomfortable? Like the air was tense and heavy? Or in contrast, you went to a different gathering and felt like it was fun and welcoming… and yet you had not said anything to anybody yet?”
— Pat Stedman
That is a little vague, perhaps… but I bet most of us have had experiences like this. Pat is talking about what it feels like to be around certain Types. Or how a certain Type might have a certain “vibe.” You don’t have to be a Hippy to pick up on a guy’s vibe – it’s “basic” social calibration (as we’d say in Game).
As daygamers we often talk about vibe. Like, “when my vibe sucks I can’t get the girls to hook.” That is very easy to understand. Or, “that guy has a shit vibe, so when I wing with him, he puts me in a bad mood and we’re both repulsive to girls.” Also easy to understand. Vibe matters.
Now, did you know “vibe” is a short for “vibration?” Exactly the same thing. If “vibration” sounds too Hippy, I get it. But substitute in “vibe” and again, Pat’s use of the term is very easy to understand.
“People who have a negative energy give off a different vibration – literally a lower frequency. And this vibration affects their perception.”
— Pat
Super Hippy now, right? But Pat is saying that we can call “negative energy” a “lower vibration.” A “low vibe” doesn’t sound fun (or attractive) and it isn’t. We all know what that feels like. This is not a controversial claim.
“The lower your vibration, the more you are oriented towards scarcity, pain, and fear. The higher your vibration, the more you operate in abundance, bliss, and love.”
— Pat
More “Hippy Tech”. And again, I agree with Pat. Don’t freak out because he used the word “Love.” We don’t talk about Love much in the Locker Room (even though we all know what that means too), but “Fun” fits there too.
Men with a certain “vibe” tend to see the world in terms of Scarcity/Pain/Fear (negative). And other men tend to see the world in terms of Abundance/Love/Fun (positive). Something like that. This is a very old classification system, people have been talking about the world this way for thousands of years.
Here is an example:
“A grandfather is talking with his grandson and he says there are two wolves inside of us which are always at war with each other.
“One of them is a good wolf which represents things like kindness, bravery and love. The other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed, hatred and fear.
“The grandson stops and thinks about it for a second then he looks up at his grandfather and says, ‘Grandfather, which one wins?’ The grandfather quietly replies, ‘The one you feed.'”
— Anonymous
That is an old quote, but it fits this situation very well. In terms of the Love vs Fear dichotomy, which Wolf are you feeding? Can you see that it makes a difference to where you end up? Which one do think is more Seductive?
Dead obvious.
And this Love vs Fear distinction is true for women’s psychology too. We have some “Fear vibe” girls and some “Love vibe” girls. There are “Takers” (Fear/Scarcity) and “Givers” (Kind/Generous) out there. NAWALT. I have enough experience in the world that these Types are easy to see. I have seen both. I know which flavor I prefer. And I think the kind of Game I run attracts one Type more than the other… I am certain of it.
I know which Wolf I feed. How about you?
I made a claim that the Redpill guys are particularly proud of their ability to concentrate on the Harsh Truths. What does a concentration on “harshness” say about a man’s vibe? Pat says a “low vibe” will influence how you perceive the world. I agree. And it will influence how the world sees you – and what you attract.
Which Wolf will you feed?
I am very interested in the Truth. And I reject the guys that are particularly attached to calling themselves Redpill because in my experience, their philosophy leads to a vibe that sucks. A shit vibe is Anti-game, can you see it? They are very into their Harsh Truths, but are in denial about the possibilities of Blissful Truths, Sexy Truths, Joyful Truths.
There is no Balance in these men. They are the mirror opposite of the Bluepillers: all push, not enough pull. That is equally ineffective.
The “sea” can give you a horrific drowning or can give you a fantastic adventure. I don’t trust men that can’t see both sides. Saying that another way… those men are a certain Type.
NO, DESIRE IS NOT DRIVEN BY ANXIETY:
“The anxiety that comes with the insecurity of the relationship is what drives her to sexual desire.”
“The anxiety IS the desire.”
— Mr Anxiety
Mr Anxiety thinks he speaks for Redpill as he says these things. I think he does, in fact, represent Redpill very well… and the whole mess is embarrassing.
As this came up, he deleted his comments when me and some other guys pressed him, but those are direct quotes (one is quite recent, he was doubling down). I think this kind of thinking IS in fact, “mainline” thinking for Redpill guys. This is more of the Harsh Truth they want you to believe in. It’s very similar to would-be Players that are into “Psychopath Game” etc. Or ones that are overly drunk on Robert Greene. It’s evidence of their Type.
I don’t think these guys are cool. And I doubt that quality women are into this vibe either. But I should stick to my own framework and say some “Type” of women might be into them (and that is probably true), but not the kind I want to date.
It sounds like Mr Anxiety wants us to think “good Game” is about making women Anxious. Is that the “Truth?”
I think it’s particularly untrue. I know many men that are truly excellent at creating Desire – and Anxiety is never what they teach. These Harsh Truth guys are based in a kind of Fear, and their strategies with women come from a view of the sexual marketplace that is based on their own Insecurity and their need for Defense. Their theories aren’t really about the sexual marketplace, or about the girls… their Harshness is really about themselves. They are telling you what Type they are.
Game is not an exercise in endless Paranoia and Defense. And I do not look to these guys for tips on Desire.
“The anxiety IS the desire.”
That is insanely confused bullshit. I have to assume that men that talk like this either don’t know many women intimately or they date a very specific Type indeed. I’ll explore that below.
I am a pickup guy and mine is not a theoretical position. I actually go out, on the street, walk up to girls I don’t know, make conversation, take numbers, get them out on dates. Some fair percentage of those dates end up sexual, and some percentage of those end up somewhat ongoing. I am not trying to be a Boyfriend or a Husband, but I’m not “pump and dump” either. I’m trying to fulfill the Lover category in the sexual marketplace and I have done so with some success.
I never, ever try to create Anxiety in women. In no way does Anxiety turn women on.
Mr Anxiety is not only a Type, but he is also very confused on this topic. So much so, I am certain that Desire is not his specialty.
If I made a girl Anxious when I approached her, do you think she’d stop and talk? No. If I made her Anxious in the messaging stage, would she continue to text? No. Do you think that when men make women Anxious those girls are eager to come out on dates? Of course not.
Attractive, healthy girls, have a lot of choices. A shocking amount of choices. Anxiety is not a good feeling. Why would healthy girls choose Anxiety? And even if they did, would the Anxiety lead specifically to Sexual Desire? That connection is clueless.
Imagine Last Minute Resistance (LMR) for a minute. LMR is a period in a seduction that is naturally a bit “unsure” or Anxious. If a girl is a bit Anxious, or Insecure, or Nervous the first time she’s in bed with a guy, I would say that is a pretty normal. I have closed a lot of girls, and many of them rather quickly. In my experience, if she is Anxious, she is going to want to leave – not get naked. And men with skill can walk a girl through LMR, both make her feel more comfortable (reduce Anxiety) and also turn her on. She will be Excited. Some anxiousness can be a normal byproduct of the newness of it all, but I wouldn’t confuse Excitement or Arousal with Anxiety. They are not even vaguely similar states. More on this when we talk about Maslow’s Hierarchy below.
Mr Anxiety strikes me as a LARPer, a pretender, a fake tough guy… because I have been in too many sexual situations to believe that Anxiety leads to Passion. I don’t think he is talking about Passion, he is confusing Desire with Control. That may be a key to his personal psychology… he is not very good with Desire, and to compensate, he is trying to get more Control.
As the Lover type, the deeper I get into a relationship with a girl the less anxiousness I see. And it is often then that she begins to really open up… to trust me… to move forward, to show me better, richer, juicier parts of herself. She does more for me. Her Passion blooms with Trust. The sex gets much better. Etc. I have seen this too many times to doubt it.
The Harsh Truther’s like this Anxiety… they like Fear… that is the Wolf they feed.
The presence of Anxiety and Fear as a theme from these Types of guys says a lot about them. More on this below. If you’re looking for Anxiety… they’ve got plenty for you. And if you follow them, that is the Wolf you’ll find.
Look at the stories they tell vs the stories of the Men of Game. This is all easy to see.
DAVID DEIDA’S THREE STAGES:
Deida has a model he uses a lot to talk about Types, as well. He calls them “Stages.”
One simple overview is this:
STAGE ONE: Dependence
STAGE TWO: Independence
STAGE THREE: Interdependence
That is a very thin slice of what he would have to say, but that’s a good start. It allows me to start talking about a Type that is interested in having women being Dependent on them, that confuses Desire for an attempt to Control, and how that “stage” fits within a fuller range of opportunities.
Here is a great line from someone else’s review of Deida’s Stage One:
“The man dominates the woman with threats of physical violence and withholding of resources and the woman dominates the man with threats of emotional violence and withholding of sex.”
— Eivind Figenschau Skjellum
I don’t see any of that in my life at all, but it reminds me of some Harsh Truthers I know. I’m putting no emphasis on the physical violence here… but the vibe is the same.
I include the quote from Skjellum to show a relationship between a “low vibe” guy and a “low vibe” girl: How they attract and then extort and torture each other. This is what “low vibration” looks like. And it’s nothing to aim for. You can do better.
The Truth is many things, but I think a lot of guys that have a real hard-on for Redpill “Harsh Truths” are showing you they are something like Stage One Types. They are convinced they have arrived, but they have barely begun. I think that is very true of the Redpill movement. It is what it is, but I don’t think it’s anything to be overly proud of.
And notice the Type of girl that the Deida model predicts: She is to be starved for resources (which might help make her Anxious/Insecure, right?), and then, she is to starve the guy for sex and to wield emotional violence in response. A healthy girl would never date these guys, but a less healthy girl might. And in response to Mr Anxiety’s tactics, she’ll back-stab and coerce, meeting The Harsh Truther in that Harsh world view.
We all know “low end” couples like this, but this is the last place I want to be in terms of my mating and dating. And this is why I encourage men to be very careful who’s Truth they follow.
ATTACHMENT STYLES:
Types matters.
If we want to break this stuff down, we can start with what Type of guy, what Type of girl, and what Context. With that said, I’ll introduce a subject I’m not overly familiar with, but I had a feeling it would help us explain the conflict between Harsh Truthers and healthier men.
“In psychology, the theory of attachment can be applied to adult relationships including friendships, emotional affairs, adult romantic or platonic relationships.”
— Wikipedia
The four Attachment Styles are described as 1.) Secure and then three “Insecure” styles including 2.) Anxious-Preoccupied, 3.) Dismissive-Avoidant, and 4.) Fearful-Avoidant.
I don’t want to spend all day on this, but let’s touch on a couple of notes here.
Here is what “Secure” looks like:
“A Secure attachment style is demonstrated by those possessing a positive view of self and a positive view of others. Securely attached people tend to agree with the following statements: ‘It is relatively easy for me to become emotionally close to others. I am comfortable depending on others and having others depend on me. I don’t worry about being alone or others not accepting me.'”
— Attachment Theory
If we were talking about girls here, this ^ sounds like a healthy girl to me. And the girls I date are mostly of this Type.
“Negative” strategies (like trying to make her Anxious) won’t work particularly well on healthy, secure, “high self-esteem” girls. Secure Type guys with experience know this is true. Those girls are healthy, they come from healthy families, they know what healthy looks like. They don’t need to put up with wannabe Redpill Heroes trying to increase their Anxiety. They have met genuinely cool guys before. They would see an attempt to inject Anxiety as particularly clueless and uncalibrated, and they’d be right.
“At these higher levels if you try to operate in a red pill dynamic you will lose your woman, who will not be impressed by your ‘games’ but will pity you.”
— Pat Stedman
I think that is right… for certain Types.
When I was super “green” and learning game, and I’d experiment with breaking rapport (in an amateur way) or testing the potential of “negs” (which is a good example of a low-vibe technique), I would get blown out… and often get eye rolls from girls. If the girl cares for you at all you might get some pity. If not, you get nothing… and you deserve it.
Healthy girls reject low-vibe.
Now, here is the first of the Insecure attachment styles:
“An Anxious-Preoccupied attachment style is demonstrated by those possessing a negative view of self and a positive view of others. People with anxious-preoccupied attachment type tend to agree with the following statements: ‘I want to be completely emotionally intimate with others, but I often find that others are reluctant to get as close as I would like,’ and ‘I am uncomfortable being without close relationships, but I sometimes worry that others don’t value me as much as I value them.’ People with this style of attachment seek high levels of intimacy, approval, and responsiveness from their attachment figure.”
— Attachment Theory
Read that again: “[A] negative view of self and a positive view of others.”
Finally… the Redpill stud has found his girl. We had to dig a bit, but we found a Type that will buy into what Mr Anxiety is selling.
No Anxiety doesn’t increase desire. What is going on here is that the Types of girls that pair well with Harsh Truthers are likely Anxious and needy. They want intimacy, but have a low opinion of themselves, so when they find a guy that also has a low opinion of them (or acts like it), and stokes their Anxiety, they have found something “that is familiar,” it “makes sense” to them (given their Type). We are still not talking about Desire. But if she is needy, and she wants some attention from a Harsh Truther, she might hold still long enough for him to fuck her… and he then does a victory lap bragging about his amazing Anxiety Game. I’d laugh if it wasn’t all so disgusting.
Notice how the hardcore Redpill guys are constantly yammering about bipolar girls (BPD). I’m a Secure type, I don’t aim for “broken” girls, so I really know almost nothing about BPD girls. My “vibe” doesn’t attract them. They are never in life.
But these Redpill guys with so much “wisdom” to share… notice how they talk about BPD a lot. Why is that? They think they need harshness to defend themselves from unstable girls, but maybe harshness attracts those girls in the first place? And maybe the Harsh Truther’s version of “Game” is a perfect match for girls with Anxious-Preoccupied styles? That makes sense to me. A lot of sense.
Pat said that a man’s “vibration affects their perception.” If a low-vibe Redpill guy is drunk on a Harsh Truth cocktail, he’ll see everything through “Redpill Glasses.” He begins with Harsh, the Anxious girls relate to that vibe, and they are a perfect match for each other.
Types matter.
And over time… this is the only “Game” those Redpill guys will recognize. They bring “low vibe” Game. It works on low-vibe girls. They think all girls are low vibe (AWALT), so they bring more Harsh tactics to compensate. They scare off all the sane, healthy girls. This reinforces their crusty worldview. Rinse/Repeat… and you have Mr Anxiety and men like him. Pathetic.
If that’s what you want, if that’s who you are… you know who to follow. And it’s not me. I am going someplace much cleaner than all that bullshit.
A TERRIBLE EXAMPLE:
In a related example, another of these guys was encouraging us to run “Dread Game” (very close to typical Redpill, but the “low vibe” guys in Game likes this negative stuff too). He was talking about his own marriage and he had this to say:
“Which leads me to conclude it was more related to fear of what may happen, then passion for the new me.”
— Mr Terrible Example
This guy is a married man, and the context was he had changed his routine in ways to make her “raise an eyebrow.” “Working out, dressing better,” the usual stuff we suggest that might help a man sharpen his value.
Value is great in every case. Secure people can raise their value. Secure women in their lives can appreciate that. There is nothing “bad vibe” about raising your value.
But notice this guy’s conclusion: He says that her renewed interest in him “was more related to fear of what may happen” (Fear is his word, not mine) than about her Passion for him. To me, that is a terribly sad thing to admit. But he wasn’t “admitting” it. He was borderline bragging about it. “It works” for him. Go Redpill!
“You obviously have to be careful with it and tailor it to the woman so you don’t push her to full blown neurosis.”
— More advice from Mr Terrible Example
Oh, I see. Wow. Yes, I guess we had better be careful indeed. Utter horseshit.
“I care not why I got the desired result, only that I got it. I’m relying on Rollo’s explanation for why it works and my own observation which matches.”
— Mr Terrible Example on his “victory lap”
Okay… he got what he wanted. Just like Mr Anxiety, I think this guy is mainstream Redpill, and I think he looks entirely repulsive. If you want to be him, he is showing you the way. Do you want to be this guy?
These guys think if you successfully create Insecurity in a girl you will see Desire in her. For healthy “good vibe” people, that is nonsensical. Insecurity/instability is not a turn on… not even for low vibration girls.
Insecurity and Anxiety are not sexual feelings. They are related to survival and “lower level” needs.
In Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs – Anxiety is at the level of basic “safety,” and it’s near the bottom of the hierarchy (just above food and water). Desire is up a level from all that. Self Esteem is up even higher. When Pat says “lower vibration,” Maslow’s Hierarchy can show you exactly what “lower” means. Mr Anxiety’s advice will take healthy people backwards, down the model, into survival and safety… none of that is sexy.
“If a woman is more open than a man, she cannot open to him… It would decrease her depth.”
— David Deida
That is some solid Hippy Tech from Deida. And David is saying the same thing Pat is saying… that unless the woman is living at the level of basic survival, aiming for Anxiety would “decrease her depth.” She’d “lose ground.” And if she is attractive, if she has options… why would she choose that kind of man?
“Because, ‘Harsh Truths’ bro.” Nope. Not good enough.
Mr Anxiety and Mr Terrible Example think forcing a girl into “safety mode” is “Game.” As they destabilize these already Insecure girls, as her very survival (economic or psychological) is challenged, it could set up an “exchange” of sorts… she is threatened, so she fucks the guy. It’s about Control and Obedience, not Seduction or Desire. And it is an ugly place to aim for.
If some Harsh Truther can make her (more) Needy and Dependent (Stage One “caveman” in Deida’s model)… maybe he can get laid? Can you see which Wolf that man likes to feed?
Again, I am disgusted.
Many, many things can help you bring girls into your world. You have choices. As the Harsh Truthers aim for Fear and Anxiety and Insecurity, I assume that is because that is all they’ve got. Anxiety Game is bait for their BPD Dream Girl. Be careful what you wish for.
Don’t mistake any of this for Desire. Our Terrible Example here spells it out: “[I]t was more related to fear of what may happen, then passion for the new me.” I actually feel sad for this guy (and his wife). But he is closer to understanding what is going on here than Mr Anxiety. She is afraid. So she complies. This is bottom-of-the-barrel low. Low vibe. Bad game.
The Harsh Truther tough guys don’t discriminate in terms of psychological Type at all. It is AWALT, “one size fits all,” Anxiety/Dread Game for everyone. And that is shit leadership. I feel bad for the guys that are soaking it up.
Pat is right. It is “low vibration.” It’s “bad vibe.” It makes me feel sick to write about it.
But the good news is… I think most men do NOT in fact fit this Type. They are not in fact like the typical try-hard Redpiller LARPer claims to be. I think most hardcore Redpill guys aren’t actually like this either. They just talk like this. And that is a problem, because it confuses people that have even less experience. And it wastes their time… as for healthy men, this path will never be productive.
THE ROLE OF TRUST IN A WOMAN’S ORGASM:
To clear our palate, let’s talk about girls popping off. This is more “good vibe.” Can you feel the shift as we move from “Fear” (Redpill) to “Love” (Seduction)?
I feel better already.
In practice, I don’t focus that much on whether a woman has an orgasm ,but I do try to give them the best experience I can give them. I like to make girls feel good – more “good vibes.” And it seems obvious to me that if you fuck her well, she is more likely to come around for more good times.
Win, win, win.
Recently, I posted the most popular thing I have every posted on Twitter. It was a bunch of notes (again) from David Deida on girl’s orgasms. It was a hot topic. Everybody loved it.
And an interesting theme in those notes was Trust:
On G-SPOT ORGASMS: “G-spot orgasm is also dependent on deep emotional trust. If [she does] not trust [her] partner, [she] won’t relax enough to allow the waves of openness to emanate from [her] g-spot. Those waves of orgasm, open out… it’s an opening of the body that requires trust and emotional connection, so [she] is willing to surrender open the body and be touched deeply.”
On CERVICAL ORGASMS: “So that when she trusts her partner entirely, and when her partner is able to repeated, rhythmically touch the cervical area over and over and over, just right… she is able to really receive that depth of penetration, and in that trust she can open to a cervical orgasm, which is an even more relaxed opening and waves of emanation. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh!”
Deida emphasizes “deep emotional trust” and that she “trusts her partner entirely” such that the couple can unlock bigger and better things. Higher consciousness… better vibe. We are moving up in Maslow’s Hierarchy, away from basic survival/Anxiety and into orgasm/Trust/Seduction.
I can say, unequivocally, that the best sex I have ever had was when the girl feels really, really comfortable with me, when she trusted me, when we build that up together over a few sessions (at least). It wasn’t only Trust, but that is a good foundation. Anxiety has never been a part of any of that for me. Tension, yes. Excitement, yet. Dominance, yes. We can employ Classic Masculinity, but Anxiety… for the girls I like… never. Healthy men know the difference.
If Trust is tightly linked to her “surrendering” enough to have a big proper orgasm, maybe there are other ways in which running a more healthy style of Game might benefit ourselves as Players and the girls in our lives. I’ve seen it. Lots of men have.
MORE ATTACHMENT STYLES:
A lot of completely healthy guys can dip into what we might call Redpill theory and pull out something useful here and there. Maybe “not all Redpillers are like that.”
But for the average guy that is going on and on about Redpill this/that (and compulsively tags “@repulsive_male” in every post), I bet money most of these men are not experts on Desire.
Maybe they recently got abused by some girl. Or they just went through a messy divorce (that is a lot of the Redpill space, right there). And of course they would like more access to women (which I respect), but they’re not getting it (most men aren’t). These guys cling to Redpill so they can commiserate together. In the absence of more victories with girls, they can share sad stories and tales of danger.
I can relate to men that have been through hard times, but the endless paranoia with these guys is why Redpill always reminds me much more of MGTOW than Game. I think that distinction is important. And it’s why I don’t look to Redpill guys for lessons on Desire.
And for the guys that really live and breathe this Redpill stuff, here is another look at Attachment Styles:
“Fearful-Avoidant: A Fearful-Avoidant attachment style is demonstrated by those possessing an unstable fluctuating/confused view of self and others. People with losses or other trauma, such as sexual abuse in childhood and adolescence may often develop this type of attachment and tend to agree with the following statements: ‘I am somewhat uncomfortable getting close to others. I want emotionally close relationships, but I find it difficult to completely trust others, or to depend on them. I sometimes worry that I will be hurt if I allow myself to become too close to other people.'”
— Attachment Theory
Hey – we have found the Attachment Style of Redpill Harsh Truthers.
When they say “hypergamy doesn’t care” (which they say over and over and over) we can translate that to “I want emotionally close relationships, but I find it difficult to completely trust others.” That… is a pretty damn good fit.
If a man has had some real disappointing relationships, if he’s been hurt a lot, if concepts like “the anger phase” appeal to him… maybe he is now (or always was) the Fearful-Avoidant Type? “I want emotionally close relationships, but I find it difficult to completely trust others.” “Sometimes worry that I will be hurt if I allow myself to become too close to other people.” A “confused view.” That sounds… exactly… like typical Redpill guys to me.
I bet 1$ Mr Anxiety is that kind of guy.
If the Anxious-Preoccupied attachment style is the Type of girl that responds to Anxiety, then maybe that pairs well with the Fearful-Avoidant Redpiller??
How is that ^ for a “Harsh Truth.”
I had a feeling this Attachment Styles theory could explain some of the confusion in the ‘Sphere. I am not disappointed.
COMPLIANCE AND GAME:
My final thoughts here are about Compliance and Game.
If you’re active in Game, if you’re dating many girls per year (at least), you will have a chance to go beyond theory and try it out. Game has always had a “pure” side to it, as you had to put your theories to the test, see how they work in the field, and how the results of your Game work out over time.
I’ll end where I started and say… we must know the Type of man, the Type of women, and the Context of their relationship if we want analyze or give advice.
When you’re considering advice out there, start with “what Type am I?,” and then ask yourself if that advice fits you. Think about what Type of girls you want in your life, and if that advice seems tailored to be effective with the Type of girls you like. Think about the kind of relationship you want, and see if that advice will take you in the direction you want to go.
And then… go try it. Fucking prove it. See if you get compliance from the girls you want with “Anxiety Game.” See if you enjoy what you’ve “won” when you do.
If you’re sold on the idea that the goal of a proper King is to fill his woman’s head with Insecurity, and that that will generate Desire… I think you’re hopelessly wrong. But go try it. Put up or shut up, Harsh Truther. And if you get what you want… congratulations… it worked for the Type of man you are.
And for the rest of us, I hope you’re on a better path than Mr Anxiety and Mr Terrible Example. And I hope the “10,000” words in this post helped expose some alternatives to the worst the Redpill has to offer.
Fear and Anxiety don’t make for particularly good “lube” for sex. I have tested better options and they work. I don’t get everything I want, but other paths are definitely (more) effective… for the Type of girls I’m into.
As a Lover I have had some fantastic success bringing girls into my life. I have tested Secure Game and it works. “Harsh Truth” and Defense are Anti-game for healthy people and I suggest you digest what is of worth there and quickly move on.
I’m not done learning. This post helped me get a little closer to where I want to go. Many of the solid sources I pointed to in this post represent perspectives I can study that will bring me closer to what I want. More of being a Lover, perhaps. Certainly plenty of Classic Masculinity. Solid Boundaries. Some Pull to match my Push. Plenty of Balance.
Fear or Love? Which Wolf will win in your life? Which Wolf will you feed?
We shall see. Happy hunting.
Viva Daygame.
“The anxiety that comes with the insecurity of the relationship is what drives her to sexual desire.”
I also think this is BS. My most feral lovers were not anxious or insecure about the relationship. Shit, when you’re fucking a in a dark corner of a hotel, it’s hard to call it a “relationship” if you just met her an hour ago.
Sure, there may be anxiety: of being with a stranger, in a public place, frought with lustful tension. If anything, these feral girls are able to let loose their inner slut, simply since I had the key to unlock whatever repressed and unfulfilled desires they’ve had.
“In contrast to Bluepill, Redpill is supposed to be “seeing the world as it is.” So far so good… Some guys think this means embracing Harsh Truths.”
I think once a person values the harshness over the truthfullness.. Or, gauging truthfulness of an idea by how harshful the idea is, then that’s a terrible way to seek/determine the truth.
“In the Harsh-Only World of the Redpill guys, any talk of joy with women will mean you’ll get labeled “Purplepill.” ”
These are the types of men that don’t go down on women, or don’t care if she orgasms, since they think it’s beta.
Long post but there’s good stuff in it, I’ll have to comment on more later.
I like where you’re going here.
I think the Anxiety on those first hookups isn’t about you… it’s about what you could be if the situations was all “wrong” for her. Once she sees you’re NOT that, then… her feral lover side can open up.
The Anxiety is friction to the Desire.
“Fear and Anxiety don’t make for a particularly good “lube” for sex.”
“I think the Anxiety on those first hookups isn’t about you… it’s about what you could be if the situations was all “wrong” for her. Once she sees you’re NOT that, then… her feral lover side can open up.”
Agreed, another way I think of it is: IF they’re afraid of you, AND your still the kind of man they want to fuck, THEN fear/anxiety can be a good lube.
I’m recalling a bit from The Erotic Mind which discusses how negative emotions like Fear, Shame, Disgust, Pain… can be a real aphrodisiac.
Some girls are REALLY turned on by being pissed on. But, you’d be retarded to approach girls at a bus stop and just start pissing on them, since it shows your fucking crazy, and therefore – not babymaking material.
https://www.amazon.com/Erotic-Mind-Unlocking-Sources-Fulfillment/dp/0060984287
TYPES. With these comments, you’re stepping into material that is right for a certain Type — NOT A BEGINNER.
I agree with you. I think this is way beyond the grasp of men that don’t have much experience. Don’t start here.
I also think you’re getting into the SHADOW SIDE of sex. And that is a dense conversation. We all have a shadow.
As for girls that “want fear:” I imagine we can TYPE them too, and SUB-TYPE them:
— Some % start w/ a LOT of trust, and then lean into “danger.”
Does she want a real rape? Very rarely indeed. But a “simulated” rape, perhaps. Elements of rape, maybe. We know rape is a top fantasy for a lot of girls.
— Some very small % of women like real “abuse”
I think this is true… and I would call these girls unhealthy.
— Some % maybe want to sample “abuse.”
Maybe they want a very rough experience, once. Or occassionly. And it could be genuinely hot for her, but she won’t pursue that often – scratch the itch and move on. “It was an experiment.” It was a “dip into her shadow.” All of this could be possible, but IMAO shouldn’t be the first place a man assumes when he is assessing a woman’s Type.
And most men… will never master the art of the darkest parts of the shadow. I’ve played with it, but mostly in small doses… and almost always within the context of warm relationship.
Trust sets up “surrender” and hot sex. Role playing can be super hot. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
looks like you put a lot of time into it…..definitely beautiful insights…..am gonna read it properly and give you some of my thoughts, just skimmed through it ……
i like how you call most ‘red pill’ assertions as essentially either defensive or reactive to the woman’s imperative….this is absolutely correct in my opinion, and a huge drag on guys progress’ in learning to get better with women…..
That is what I see. I think there is some utility to teaching men Defense, but I can’t help but see that as “1/2” the story, at best.
More and more guys can see this.
This is my main reason to push back on the dogma from those guys, particularly the Harsh Truthers.
Defense is not about “bringing women into your life” – quite the opposite. But more than that, the “VIBE” of Defense makes is very hard to even begin to step fwd.
>>i like how you call most ‘red pill’ assertions as essentially either defensive or reactive to the woman’s imperative….this is absolutely correct in my opinion, and a huge drag on guys progress’ in learning to get better with women…..
Depends where the guy starts from. For a lot of guys who have been completely unsuccessful their whole lives, it is necessary to start by protecting what little value he has.
https://krauserpua.com/2016/04/30/reveal-vs-restructure/
I’m more sympathetic to the Red Pill default, because so many guys don’t know shit about women and have never learned anything about women and have such low value that they struggle by default. In that world… defensive and value-building is necessary.
It’s like… imagine you are living in the former Soviet Union… you are struggling to survive day to day… do you care very much about the game? No, you are worried about food and shelter. But in a different environment… a different behavior and psychology repertoire is desirable. https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/what-do-we-spend-our-excess-money-on-sex/
That is another way of talking about Maslow’s Hierarchy, as mentioned in post.
Hey, Red Quest.
I was also originally very sympathetic to the concept of men being Redpilled. The major voice in that scene had some “facts” that interested me, but his “vibe” and interpretations kept me from slipping down into his rabbit hole… and I think I was lucky.
If I imagine a guy that has been “unsuccessful his whole life” should “protect his value” (leaning on the Harsh Truth version of reality, and some Defense concepts), then I think that guy will, in fact, be “typical redpill” as his protection will lead him to very little new experiences that will challenge his original defensive assumptions… it’s self-fulfilling.
I am of the opinion that to get good at Game you need VOLUME. And Defense thwarts volume. If AWALT, at what point does a man step fwd with good intentions, expecting good intentions? So he has very little success, maybe a lot of “unsuccess” and his Defensive vibe means he hoards that lack of experience. How does he even find some positive experiences to help him see some Blissful Truths, some Joyfield Truths, some Confident Truths?
If he doesn’t find something “positive” – and especially if he has these guys showing him “look at this thot, look at this thot” over and over… he is bound for something like MGTOW (or something so close it’s indistinguishable from MGTOW).
It’s not that Defense is a bad thing… but it should be less than 50% of the lesson. Much less.
I have been using the “Dog’s Bite” metaphor.
Rollo: Dogs bite
Dude: Do all dogs bite?
Rollo: ADALT
Dude: Do they ONLY bite?
Rollo: You’re Purplepill!!!
I think that ^ is a bit absurd, but so are many of the arguments coming from Harsh Truthers. It’s not far off of the current usage of “redpill Truth.”
So, to improve on the “all dogs bite” and “they ONLY bite” frame, we could imagine a father teaching his son that YES, some dogs bite. And especially if that dog is “damaged” (low vibe) and if you turn your back on a damaged dog (naive) that is a particularly unwise (inexperienced) thing to do. So, yeah, stay alert, kid. But… Dogs are wonderful. They need “rules/boundaries/limits” just like all of us (they are at their best when those things are in place). But with that in done, they experiences you have with dogs can certainly be wonderful. Your own dogs. But also dogs you come into contact with. Cool, grown men, are NOT threatened by the ideas of dogs, even though dog bites are certainly a possibility. So show a little caution on your approach. Check that dog out. Not all dogs are good, or healthy, or fun. Your confidence will make a difference in how dog treat you (good ones and bad ones). But I bet you’ll find a lot of really great experiences. Dogs are awesome… “mans best friend” as they say… that is AT LEAST as true as the idea that “dogs sometimes bite.”
This ^ shows Balance in a way that I see as completely absent from the Redpill scene. There is Defense. But there is a clear recognition of the UPSIDE.
This is doable. But as men with experience, we have to provide examples like this in our conversations. And I will certainly continue to mock guys that think “all dogs bite” and they “only bite.” That is not about “bad dogs,” that is about broken guys hwith big mouths.
I’m not Captain “Save a ‘Ho” and I’m also not here to cater to every broken Redpiller I can. I want to deter fresh men from that scene. We don’t need to give broken guys the microphone… that is going to infect other guys.
>>This ^ shows Balance in a way that I see as completely absent from the Redpill scene. There is Defense. But there is a clear recognition of the UPSIDE.
I don’t think most guys are in the intellectual/idea market for balance…. I think most guys are in the market for anger. So many RP guys are the “mirror image” of angry feminists… they are angry and defensive themselves. Angry feminists like the “all men” narrative and angry RP guys like the “all women” narrative.
The number of guys who want to improve their game and really get laid… seems to be smaller than the number of anger warriors.
The market gravitates towards the demand, sadly in this case.
That Krauser post really hits close to home.
Yeah, I’ve noticed how Rollo’s posts and red pill stuff is focusing less on game, and more on Feminine Imperative. There’s a strong ‘battle of the sexes’ frame to the writings, and there is some truth to it since men and women have different desires.
A problem for men (and women) occurs when they really identify and connect their ego with their “team”, go moaning on about how their team gets the raw end of the deal, and proceed to quit the game intentionally (or unintentionally) as incels or spinsters.
If I was in Soviet Russia, I’d be gaming the bread lines.
““The anxiety that comes with the insecurity of the relationship is what drives her to sexual desire.”
— Mr Anxiety
I think your take is pretty much dead on. It certainly is true if you live in project hollywood with young Style and Mystery and the gang and are dating strippers. But to extrapolate that data to the entire world is false. Not everyone lives that way, including the characters in that famous book if you follow them just a few years later. So he’s not wrong in how he’s describing his own relationship dynamics, he just has a very limited data set.
Basically parallels Pat Steadman’s take on Rollo.
And your take on how defensiveness kills vibe is a key concept. Xsplat and I – and yourself if I recall correctly – have talked about how meditation helps to shift the mind out of prey mode of thinking and into apex predator mode of seeing/experiencing the world.
Still, if you never experience it then for practical purposes it doesn’t exist.
The presence of all the heavens, the kingdom of God is at hand. It is all about you, yet you do not see it.
I am saying things in this post I have said other places, but a lot of this is a spin-off, of a spin-off from Pat’s last piece. I linked to it when I talk about him.
Yeah. I like it.
This will be quite a long response to your post mostly out of respect for your work and the guidance you have given me to date, especially about La Napolitana in Munich. You have also been very thorough in critiquing my posts – some of it strong yet always in good faith and earnest in its intent.
First things first – break this post up into various posts. It’s too long and impossible to read in one go. You have many concepts packed into one post, each of which would make a good segue into the next. But super-long posts are anti-persuasive.
I think the fundamental difference between us is that I do not attempt to be “judgey” to use your term – I do not state “completely ridiculous bullshit” nor would I label men as Mr Anxiety or Mr Terrible Example.
I see you more and more as a categorical thinker where you group people as either “in” or “out” of your interest. People become excluded like “Sneaky Tom” despite the content he produces. Rollo is is the @repugnant_male. Even I get put into this categorisation when you tweet that I am becoming the Daygamer who goes for older women.
You don’t build coalitions by smearing, lampooning and excluding them from the discussion. I know you are concerned about the influence of Rollo in the seduction space – and rightly so. I read Deida BEFORE I read Rollo, yet Rollo’s work influenced me more – and now much less. His influence has been cyclical but I don’t look to him for Game or seduction advice: I look to others.
To give an example of how harshness plays out with you – some gentle advice you gave to Anthony Dream Johnson was met with a harsh rebuke from him – and a polite response from you. I like that kind of Nash. The Nash that encourages men to write and stick with their blogs, to be more seductive and talk to women, and to move beyond the entry-level garden-variety advice given out in the Manosphere.
Address Mr Anxiety and Mr Terrible Example correctly and with courtesy, even if you disagree with him.
I am not a categorical thinker – I prefer to take advice from various sources and to “form the whole view”. I do not exclude you or any other thinker even if their ideas form a “poisoned well” and can be safely excluded. I also think ridiculing people serves no purpose to advance Game and seduction knowledge. Frankly, its a pretty anti-seductive trait, much like talking about “Red Pill truths” with women.
Now for the blogpost:
You are investing too much into making pure Game a virtue – and virtue signalling with it. The tone is too strident and arrogant, excluding men who are simply trying to make sense of the basic levels of Game and seduction. You are positioning yourself as an authority, like a Pharisee.
Men come to Red Pill (or whatever is safe to call it with you) to adjust their mental view of the world. They are looking for a new viewpoint and may be unduly influenced by anti-seductive commentators like Rollo. But let me state this clearly – am reading your blog and responding to this blog post BECAUSE OF ROLLO’S WORK, however this may displease you.
“Maybe the world is Harsh, but now that I am prepared, it rarely feels that way fo me now” – I used to say I hated emotional manipulation, but I realised that I hated my own weakness and inability to manage it more. I like this line.
“They are attractive men and don’t talk like Redpillers” – Agreed. Some of us get this point naturally and some of us need to buy Rollo, Deida, Stedman and many others to be that “attractive man”. Red Pill is anti-seductive as a topic.
“And I reject the guys that are particularly attached to calling themselves Redpill because in my experience their philosophy leads to a vibe that sucks” – I have moved away from the term however it’s a useful way of explaining the difference between men who understand evolutionary biology and men who don’t.
BPD Girls – they exist in legions in the particular subsets that men might mix in. RP Musicology attracts these women and has to screen them out. He is not attracting them; they are attracting him because of common interests, age group and nationality (Australian).
Types – I’ve slept with 15 women since October 2018 and I cannot say that I attract a Type. It has been quite diverse and runs contrary to my experience. Needless to say, I know you have a Type (which could be easily lampooned by the way).
Deida – excellent source of understanding of sexual polarity and many other fusions of sexuality and spirituality
Vibration – the Colombian La Estrella made a comment to me today about “vibracion” in Spanish and I understood and appreciated it. I consider myself an adherent to Red Pill truths (there I go again) including the Harsh components of sperm competition, cuckoldry and “war brides” … yet with her it was a high frequency vibration of desire, Man – I even wrote a post about Love with Miss Bumblebee … yet I have a copy of Sperm Wars and have almost fucked a married woman. So yes – both realities exist.
In summary, I would earnestly encourage you to continue writing to eliminate the Harsh “tone” of Red Pill truths rather than a direct attack on men who are merely seeking improvement in their lives.
Yes, Nash’s post is rather judgmental, though full of value and insight. I see that I made harsh mistakes in the turmoil of dealing with my newly red-pilled anger, but have now got through to a calmer, more loving space. Anger is an essential stage of grieving – let us not try to save others from it. Use compassion to point the way forward, without ridicule. Harsh responses to harshness just make the world more harsh.
BTW RedCoco, for the last couple of days your blog is showing me a WordPress error message saying that you’ve taken it private and I need to register with WP and get an invite from you to view it. Intentional?
No – not intentional. Just had to reword some of the posts. It’s now live again.
I’m glad you’ve come through to a post-Red Pill state. I go through pockets of grief and come out the other side – including times of unmet desires and needs.
I now mix my understanding of evolutionary biology/Red Pill with Game, artistic expression, displays of emotion and deep feeling, and a prudent management of relationship dynamics.
One guiding principle I follow is that when you judge harshly (towards men or women), people stop sharing their story. I want people to tell their stories – warts and all. There are moments of magic when a person tells you: “I can’t believe I’m telling you this” and you know you’ve won.
“No – not intentional. Just had to reword some of the posts. It’s now live again.”
It’s become ‘protected’ again for the last few days.
(Sorry, Nash, to clutter comments with this, but I have no other way to contact RedCoco and he doesn’t seem to be alive to the problem.)
No problem, man. I hear he is offline intentionally again.
I recently ruined a relationship because of my “harsh truther” attachment style.
She told me she loved me after 2-3 weeks of us hanging out. Truth be told, I loved her too. But I’d never show it.
Always replied with “thank you”. I was always living in fear because of my failed relationships prior.
Think of it as a pendulum effect. One end of the spectrum being “too warm and kind” and the other being “too dominant”. I swung all the way from one end to the other.
Anyway, I acted like a fucking narcissist piece of shit. I emotionally abused and disrespected her. I had her crying… And truth be told, I hated every second of it. It felt like more of a “painful obligation” than true self-expression.
i was giving her good dick, awesome new experiences (I was stationed in japan at the time), and alot of my time.
She had to go seek emotional gratification from someone else on social media. I caught her. She lied. (I pulled her into that lower prima level of consciousness through arousing fear in her.)
I left her because “AWALT bro” and it HURT me to the fucking core. I ran back to her, and in the subsquent weeks afterward, I got everything that I dished out to her. I deserved it. Not on some bluepill beta faggot shit, but because as a man, I made uncalibrated mistakes that I needed to feel the impact of to truly learn.
Up until yesterday, I hated her so much. “She was a narcissist who only wanted to control me.” “She’s such a liar”. I’d say to myself.
I did question whether or not I pulled it out of her. And I didn’t want to accept that I had. But this post helped open my eyes fully… It was all my fault. All my responsibility.
All love fades eventually. It’s a shame that the circumstances were caused by my incompetence, but the greatest lessons come with the most pain.
Conclusively, AWALT… But as the leader in your relationships, you can pull your woman to higher levels of consciousness alongside you and create something beautiful.
Men need to stop living in fear and find their inner abundance and purpose… and live in accordance with that.
Thank you so much man.
This is an interesting case study. Thanks for sharing it.
A couple of things jump out at me:
I think this is perfect insight. The pendulum metaphor is exactly right for psychology. I have “swung” from one side to the other in various aspects of my life, and I bet I will again.
And, yeah, I think a Balance of “Warm” and “Dominant” sounds like a sweet spot to aim for. That is the man I want to be.
This is an example of what I mean when I say “go prove it.” I want to be nuanced here and say one bad experience doesn’t mean much, but a lot of this is classic moral territory. Like attracts like isn’t a new idea. The old lessons are the best lessons.
I think Pat is trying to show some of this at the level of Hippy Tech. “Bad vibe” is coming from somewhere, and it will influence what we see, what we attract (more “low vibe”), etc. This is not hard to understand.
Here, I think you’re saying something very cool.
I wrote a post about how “Quality Women Are Made” (based on a very good essay from Illimitable Man). I think good men run clean relationships. Deida would say it’s the masculine job to “take women deeper than she can take herself.” I like that, I believe it. There is certainly more than Defense in that kind of role… and I don’t think she has much reason to follow you if you only offer Harsh…
But… it depends on your Type.
(fixed formatting of previous post)
Hey Nash, great post here.
It really sums up the distinction between redpill awareness as a practical means to end, that is the gears behind the shine of game, and as an excuse to drop out of the SMP. The redpill these days is something of a double edged sword, where it propels us to take action, or to justifty dormancy.
Great quote. The Romantic/Lover is about Good Experiences for her. It sounds altruistic, but is it really? I don’t think so. It’s a question of intent. When we give the girl a Good Experience, she’s more likely to fall in to our world as a fun-loving, respectful guest with a genuine motivation to please. It’s symbiotic. You bring out the affection in eachother. This isn’t about pedastalizing a single girl, or falling in everlasting love. It’s hard work to keep up interest levels laid atop noncommital terms.
This may be why early marriages fail. In an attempt to lock down a girl, her actions are controlled within a legal framework. Marrying someone to lock them down, say in the New Relationship Energy phase, is one-way ticket to dissappointment. I like to turn these thoughts in evolutionary and economic terms. Keep an open market, let natural selection do it’s work. That is the only legitimate way to receive genuine desire and affection from our girls. Pregame me once got a blowjob on my birthday, something I didn’t regularly receive, and it sucked. It was her obligatory present to me and she fulfilled her duty. Great on paper, terrible in reality compared. It’s a rough world out there. By all means build a brick house and choose who gets to pass through your door, but never claim the right to keep someone in. Even if they stay, they’ll resent you and you’ll never truly receive them.
There are subtleties to the game. I agree with the premise here, but I propose an alternative: “Mystery, when used correctly, increases desire.” It’s rapport-breaking at the right moment such as giving half-hearted responses to her questions and texting back few words with varied time gaps. It’s not about inducing anxiety. It’s about generating curiosity and excitement. I think that’s why these overstatements are so easily spread and adopted; there’s a hint of genuine truth behind the Harsh Truths. “The best lie comes wrapped up in a truth.”
Lines like these bring me to your work.
Yeah. This is where I want to go with Game.
The Hans Comyn piece I wrote shows Hans saying something similar.
— If “bluepill” wants to “put her on a pedestal”
— Then “player” wants to put himself first (totally fair)
— “Higher vibration” is to orchestrate a perfect scene that is ideal for both parties
Hans calls that Third Stage “the directors” POV. He plays his role, he is aware of the role she needs to play (and helps her play it), and he controls that “stage” as well… for the perfect scene. All the players are happy. And the audience is inspired. Great game.
Is it altruistic? Yeah, sure. In many ways it is. And I assume it is very, very satisfying for the man. He is directing a scene where he gets what he wants.
I love to “make a woman shine.” It turns me on. It makes me want her more. It enhances masculine/feminine polarity.
If we were into “hippy tech,” we could call this a “higher vibration.” Or we could call it “very good game.” I believe it is both.
Great comment. For me, this concept takes me further from marriage. And I have a “TradCon” streak, I’m pro marriage… but maybe not for me. Not now, certainly.
You and I see this the same way. I think Mr Terrible Example is just happy to have the blowjob. And I kind of get it…
[I think sex might be “lower” on Maslow’s hierarchy for MEN (more of a need), and higher up for WOMEN (more like self expression). I think men “need” sex in a way women might not… so “getting the blowjob” even if it’s joyless, counts for men in a way it wouldn’t for women. Just a thought.]
But I would rather stay single, and let the “open market” bring me enthusiastic offers. Enthusiasm is hot.
If I were married, I think it’s reasonably likely the marriage would become more/more a “quiet happiness” (credit: Robert Johnson)… and I would have passion via affairs on the side. Not an “open marriage,” but treat my wife like a Queen… and bang Princesses on the side. That is an old model, and it seems like the best angle for a lot of couples.
I get it. And Players around the world have proven this kind of thing to have some merit. I think it is over emphasized, but… as Red Quest said, “depends on where you start.”
I don’t emphasize that flavor of game, but some of that is valid… particularly as part of a “balanced diet.” And maybe more so if “she needs it” – not all girls do.
I need to nod “yes” to that… I tend to push back as a lot of that feels “low vibe” and “sneaky,” but there is game there. I even do some of it.
That’s real.
>>I never, ever try to create Anxiety in women. In no way does Anxiety turn women on.
Even if you don’t try, I can almost guarantee you sometimes do. Maybe often do. When you withdraw attention. When she realizes she’s losing you. When she realizes that you’re higher value than she thought and she’s been a bit of a bitch. When she’s debating whether to see you that night or see someone else (not necessarily male) that night. Etc. At some point… she’s got to be a bit anxious about whether she’s hooked you, as much as you’re worried about whether you’ve hooked her. Typically the guy is worried at first, but the chick worries later on… if she’s never got some anxiety, that’s not great.
There is such a thing as too much anxiety and such a thing as too much security. Most guys generate too much security and are boring. This is the source of the “anxiety” advice.
>>Notice how the hardcore Redpill guys are constantly yammering about bipolar girls (BPD). I’m a Secure type, I don’t aim for “broken” girls, so I really know almost nothing about BPD girls. My “vibe” doesn’t attract them. They are never in life.
I have pretty limited experience with really badly behaved chicks… I think most badly behaved chicks show themselves pretty early, in smaller ways, before they get to the really terrible behaviors, and I think that I notice, sometimes subconsciously, the bad behavior and don’t reward it. So I don’t think I get into it very much with the really f**ked up chicks. Or I don’t go deep with them.
A girl who is too fucked up… I don’t want her around. This includes chicks who want to extract money from me (for example demanding dinners out), chicks who are excessively negative, chicks who are too into drugs… there are probably some other types I am missing too. Oh I know, chicks who have a history of violence or violent exes.
The last one is important… contrary to the blue pill media some chicks like violent guys and cultivate those guys in their lives. Like I said previously, most female bad behavior doesn’t spring from nowhere… for chicks, the same is true of men. Smart chicks see precursor signs of bad male behavior and cut those guys from their lives, fast. Dumb chicks, fucked up chicks… they see the signs and ignore them or worse like them.
All of our lives are patterned… if a chick has a pattern of past “abuse” or what have you… she is part of that pattern and you as a guy need to rid yourself of her. You will be the “next abuser” in her narrative of injustice.
The same thing is true at work. If you have a worker, colleague, whoever, who has a long history of supposedly being exploited by bosses, companies, etc…. you know the problem is probably with him. Anyone can get in a bad job situation once or twice… three or more times and it’s the worker’s fault.
There are more commonalities between job patterns and dating patterns than most red pill guys realize. Something to think about in that.
Most people will show/tell you who they are… usually not directly, but you can get the point. Believe them and react accordingly. Protect yourself to the extent you can.
Nash, did you read King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine yet? I do not see it mentioned in your blog’s search. You should get it ASAP.
Great comments, Red Quest.
I think this whole comment is you role modelling being a healthy man. I know you have an unusual lifestyle. But I think you’re obviously a healthy, smart guy. It’s a big part of why I am so interested in you and your stories. I see it in what you write.
In one of your earlier comments you said: “It depends on where you start.” And I think you’re pointing to Types in that kind of line. And you suggest different treatments for different conditions and Types. And this is good analysis… “it depends.”
Yeah, I’m sure I have done it. But any anxiety I inflict on a girl is a BYPRODUCT, not some “harsh” strategy. That is my point.
(The Assistant, the Chinese girl that is so hooked on me that I wrote about in Very Long Dates… she likely feels some very strong but negative-attachment to me… but she is a special case… and that is, in fact, as sad story… I would never aim for that.)
Yeah… (and Huge made a similar comment) about being a little mysterious, not always being available, etc. There is some “uncertainty.” And I’m not trying to quibble, but I don’t think uncertainty and anxiety are the same thing. Healthy people are constantly uncertain at some level. But significantly anxious people are signally something deeper/darker in their psyche.
When men are too available, when they are too naively enthusiastic, when they never give her (or themselves) space, I call it “crushing the sparrow.” They love “the little bird” so much, they crush it in their grip… which never works out for a man. I think this is very common. And I would steer guys away from that, certainly. But I don’t think “inflicting anxiety” is the solution… that would be a serious misunderstanding.
I reviewed some notes from Ester Pearl that I didn’t include in the post. And she says, “for two people to have the feeling of “connecting,” they have to start out as “separate.”” She is famous for saying desire is connected to “uncertainty.” But as a “healthy” guy myself, I don’t think it’s really that tricky to see that as different from anxiety.
The focus on Anxiety in this post was to showcase the “dark” side of TRP and the pattern of “harsh, harsh, harsh” from some of those men. While I can agree with the point you’re making, you’re doing so in a much more balanced way.
So if you “made her guess a bit” I could see that as very good game. You could make her guess in a playful way, in a teasing way, and that would also be good game. I also know that would be one of many Tools you have to make her feel genuine, positive Desire. I assume this about you.
But when Mr Anxiety insists “anxiety IS desire,” I think he is LARPing. His failure to take it any further than that is more evidence for me he doesn’t have much there. And when I pick on him and show how anxiety would kill the pickup, etc, etc, I think his emphasis looks as foolish as it is. I think he wants to sound “cold and cruel” and thinks that makes him sexy (and looks cool to other guys)… and I assume again that is costume for him… and he is clueless, or talks as if he is.
There are some genuine badass men in our circle. You. Magnum. The “Game 3.0” guys, Nathan and Hector. Jimmy Jambone. Etc. Many more. And none of us emphasize Anxiety. None of us are overly redpill either. I think there is a pattern there.
I would assume that is true for you. I have almost none. I think you’re right, it’s not easy to hide, so you’ll see it early.
So… men that hang on to “damaged girls,” do because they don’t have better options (and I don’t blame them). Or because they have a vibe that matches the damaged vibe of the girl. Could be “care taker” (they want to save them), or they are low vibe too… and this is what they know.
I could do a post on this… just based on one damaged girl, I barely dated, but tried to, years ago. She was such a fuck up. I had thoughts about her I have never had about another girl… and I think that her Type was so deeply baked into her, she likely has had several abuse relationships in her past, and she almost drew it out of me… I was shocked to feel the way I felt around her. Never before, and never since.
I have a lot of experience now, almost all with perfectly lovely girls. But occasionally, some girl can “force me off track.” And when I feel that now, I pay attention. The bi-sexual Japanese girl I had in my apartment this July.. and then couldn’t wait until she left… she is one such girl. And she is likely damaged. And of course, I never called her again.
What is so interesting for me there… is that I was “running my plan” with such commitment, I was walking past some red flags. It wasn’t until she relaxed and let her full red flag fly that I got it. And then… I was embarrassed I had let her in my house. Embarrassed I hadn’t seen it earlier. I was myopic pickup guy that night, and my “pickup routine” eclipsed my judgement for a minute… it was good lesson and it cost me almost nothing. Getting closer to her would have been a big mistake.
Fascinating. But not a Type I want to get good with.
Yeah, I have heard of it. But never touched it.
I should read it, but I’m stubborn about that book for some reason.
Good recommendation.
I typed out a response of stuff I have said before, but I’d rather say this:
A lot of guys recently have been saying “Game is part of TRP.” And that is horseshit. But we can map it out, to be specific.
— Game: Since time began
— TRP: 2013
There is the chronology for anyone that is confused. It’s that simple.
But…
What also happened right about 2013? That the modern SJW movement took off. The timing is remarkable aligned.
TRP is an outgrowth of the Men’s Right Movement… certainly not game. Rollo is an MRA – a term we barely use anymore, in large part as it doesn’t sound cool (and it mostly isn’t). But being “redpill” does sound kinda cool… even if it means a flavor of MRA in the end. Good marketing for a bitter School.
TRP/Rollo are reactions to Feminism and the heat that really turned on in 2013/2014. The timing is perfect.
It’s all “battle of the sexes” (as Rakish mentions above) and has nothing to do with DESIRE and GAME.
Fuck feminism. Personally, I am clear on that. But being anti-feminist never helped my game. That is all hostility and reaction.
What helped my game was PENETRATING THE WORLD. That is game. It’s not a “reaction” to anything. It’s not “politics.”
It’s knowing what you want. It’s being FOR something. It’s going for what you want. That… is attractive.
I read it a bit differently: to me, game is the core component of the red pill, cause I don’t want to listen to guys who can’t get even laid talk about women and gender relationships. Guys without game… are just like fat feminists whining about men.
A guy with good game doesn’t need to be red pill, though. Most aren’t.
RP guys should be players but many aren’t.
Players don’t need to be RP, but many are.
Game has obviously existed since time began… but the systematic study of it by nerds took off with the internet and exploded with neil strauss.
After all that, however…. I try not to worry too much about the theory… I want to focus on the practice. If I get too heavy into the theory… I go back to the fundamentals.
>>What helped my game was PENETRATING THE WORLD. That is game. It’s not a “reaction” to anything. It’s not “politics.”
Yeah man. When you transcend the game… you are like the Buddha… I still like the game structure, from strauss, mystery, and krauser, because many guys are so far away from penetrating the world that they have a long journey to get there, if they ever do.
When you achieve it… a lot of the debates are less vital.
[…] haven’t had a Nash bomb lately, so “Types, truth, bad vibes, and the red pill attachment style” is very welcome, though it will disappoint guys hungry for field […]
This is interesting:
“it’s well established here that NPD men are drawn to BPD women and we in the red pill community all have NPD traits due to mummy issues”
@ethenes
Not saying this is true, but it pairs well with this post.
Another example of this kind of “Redpill” thinking, and how it is increasingly confused with Game:
It nails the “INSECURE attachment type” exactly:
— It starts with the CONTEXT that a guy likes the girl
— Then provides ideas about how to “make her worry”
That is so embarrassing. Imagine being a “grown man” and spending your time this way… and thinking it was a good idea… that it would work (on healthy girls)… that it was “game.”
The poster also wants to associate this with “daygame” and “pickup” – complete BS. Not related at all… but this is what I mean about the TRP “confusion.”
This is increasingly what you get from the Redpill guys. And there is this “mythology” that they are teaching “game”… and it’s all this low value, “insecure behavior.”
I took the guys name off this. I think he is a decent guy, but he is “spreading the cancer” to get some attention.
Here is the Fearful Avoidant Attachment Style one more time:
Perfect fit for what these insecure Redpill guys are selling. The scenario is dead on:
He likes her. HE is the one that is worried. “Worry” is his worldview, as he is INSECURE. So he tries infect her with what is really his own anxiety… and thinks it’s “game.”
Ridiculous. And ATTACHMENT THEORY nails it… this only makes sense from a very insecure POV.
[…] don’t serve me well in trying to develop a longer-term relationship with a woman who has a more secure attachment style and who knows what she […]
[…] “Types” is a Nash point… one I have adopted… I have been “a certain type of player” and also Nash has written about “types” on this blog, “First off, you’re doing something SMART here by starting with some TYPES. It is a simple fact that we are not all the same, and by defining some types… we can introduce some tools and immediately know that they are not for everyone, but that doesn’t make them invalid. With that said… for me the ‘poly’ community is a fucking mess.” […]
[…] side of things, about consciousness development, but I think that’s where the the higher levels of game live. Levels a lot of guys never hit, cause they can’t get past the lower […]
[…] Nash’s statement on Rollo… he’s more anti-Rollo than I am. If you want the anti-Rollo statement, read it. […]
[…] right? At the top of the game, the game starts to sound like hippie bullshit again. At the bottom of the game, the game is a struggle to amass sufficient value to attract decent […]