“What Every Man Wants” (From The Deuce)
HBO ran this series called The Deuce – a show about New York City in the late 1970s and early 1980s. It was about bartenders, and hookers and pimps, and cops, and the first porn stars, and the mafia… all those characters interacting with each other. There are also some fascinating examples of the sexual marketplace in those various episodes…
What I want to write about here was a conversation on one episode between a father and son about “what every man wants.”
I transcribed the scene below. We’ll walk thru the dialog and then I’ll say what I want to say.
SHOW: The Deuce
EPISODE: “Nobody Has to Get Hurt”
Season 2 | Episode 8
The scene opens in the backyard of a house in NYC.
Vinny was previously married to a woman named Andrea, and they had two kids together. He and Andrea separated, and he mostly stopped seeing her and the kids. He started a new life (nearby, in Manhattan), busy managing some bars and clubs. And he took a new girlfriend – a young girl named Abby (a smart, rich girl, that had just dropped out of college).
In this scene, Vinny has a talk with his dad – Mr Martino – about women:
VINNY: I am having a hard time.
MR. MARTINO: You don’t look it.
VINNY: I was hoping to get some advice, about women.
MR. MARTINO: You think I know about women?
MR. MARTINO: …
MR. MARTINO: Who?
VINNY: Abby.
MR. MARTINO: Yeah. She’s a smart girl.
MR. MARTINO: She’s very pretty.
VINNY: I love her, but she don’t want what I want.
MR. MARTINO: Which is what?
VINNY: A regular home. A family, maybe.
MR. MARTINO: Well, Vin, you HAVE a family.
MR. MARTINO: You seen your kids lately?
VINNY: No.
MR. MARTINO: You wanted everything.
MR. MARTINO: A woman at home. Pussy on the side. Like most men.
MR. MARTINO: …
MR. MARTINO: Except most men don’t leave.
VINNY: Me and Andrea were not compatible.
MR. MARTINO: What the fuck is compatible got to do with it?
MR. MARTINO: Compatible? What?
MR. MARTINO: Vinny, you can’t control your urges. You never have.
MR. MARTINO: …
MR. MARTINO: Eh, you know…
MR. MARTINO: I am no ‘true blue.’ You know that, right?
VINNY: Yeah.
VINNY: When I was a teenager, I saw you one night, with Mrs Di Piari.
VINNY: I saw the way her eyes were shining like she was looking at you…
VINNY: I know what that look meant.
MR. MARTINO: Well, Mrs Di Piari wasn’t the only one…
VINNY: I don’t want to hear about it…
MR. MARTINO: Hey!
MR. MARTINO: You asked my advice…
MR. MARTINO: I am trying to level with you. You want to talk?
MR. MARTINO: …
MR. MARTINO: I had others. Yeah. Some nice women. We had some laughs.
MR. MARTINO: Compared, to the mother of my children, Vinny… ‘puttana.’
This ^ is the look on his face when he says, “puttana.”
MR. MARTINO: I did what I did to make myself feel like a man.
MR. MARTINO: And I come home.
MR. MARTINO: I came home.
MR. MARTINO: I had you boys. I had your sister to take care of.
MR. MARTINO: But Vinny, I never considered leaving.
MR. MARTINO: Not once.
So that is the scene.
I love that scene.
The thing I like about it is… it’s not about “what should be.” I love idealism too, but I don’t often see ideal circumstances in long term relationships. And some of the best advice you’ll ever find is about what to do in “non-ideal” situations. This is that kind of post.
Here is where we start, with these really excellent lines:
MR. MARTINO: You wanted everything.
MR. MARTINO: A woman at home. Pussy on the side. Like most men.
Is that right? Is that what most men want?
I don’t hear men say that often. Rarely. But I see it… all the time, in the non-ideal realness of the sexual marketplace. And to be starkly honest here…
It’s what I think I want.
And I don’t think I am alone. If we work our way past the “ideals,” and look at the practical choices we have as men… that is what a lot of men want. And not always in pessimism, but in a practical sense where men have found a way to work out was seems unworkable.
“A woman at home and pussy on the side” is what many men have done since the beginning of civilization.
Before I explain why Mr Martino’s “solution” appeals to me so much, I want to present the Essential Dilemma of being a family man:
ON THE ONE HAND: A man might want to take a shot at family. There is a lot of upside for men in being fathers and husbands, but there are tradeoffs on that path. One question here is: How does a man hold his attraction for his wife as he watches her age past 30, past 40, past 50 years old? How does a man maintain a vigorous sex life with an increasingly older woman? From what I can see, most married couples rarely (if ever) have sex. (Once per month?) If a man has any interest in maintaining his sexual edge, there is some pressure to test his monogamy so that he might keep some sexual activity in his life.
ON THE OTHER HAND: A man might want the life of the bachelor, of sexual variety, of “endless freedom.” I know a little bit about this lifestyle, and it also has it’s tradeoffs. Here a relevant question might be: What is a man missing if he never invests the time to explore the joys of being a parent, or of building a family, or sharing all of that with a women as they build a life together? If a man has any interest in a familial legacy beyond his own individual goals and wants, there is some pressure to trade some freedom for those opportunities.
A dilemma is a difficult choice between to challenging options.
Should he choose a family and limit (or eliminate) his sex life? Or choose sexual freedom, but without the potential richness of a family? There are many other scenarios, but this is a common dilemma men have faced for thousands of years.
It gets to the essential question of “what every man wants.” And what his options are for navigating those wants.
Currently, I am quite happy with my freedom. I’ll stay a bachelor for some time, I’m sure of it. And yet…
Mr Martino’s has three main points that I am interested in:
1.) That “a woman at home and pussy on the side” is a classic solution that helps a man to manage the two scenarios of the dilemma. That 2.) Resolving that dilemma helped him to “feel like a man.” And then, interestingly, that 3.) He would always “come back,” as his real loyalty was to his family, to what he had built, and that was never in question.
That’s beautiful.
Let’s take them one at a time.
MR. MARTINO: You wanted everything.
MR. MARTINO: A woman at home. Pussy on the side. Like most men.
Once again, is that what every man wants?
Maybe it is. Maybe it’s a solution that might help a man step into something like a committed relationship. Maybe a man wouldn’t say it quite like that. Maybe he wouldn’t even think these particular words… but what Mr Martino’s suggests solves both of our potential tragedies. Mr Martino thinks we all want a shot at satisfying each of the otherwise conflicting goals of family vs freedom.
And I like that he lays it all on the table. And that he takes it for granted that we can have both.
Men have stared down the tradeoffs of family vs freedom for millennia. What Mr Martino lays out has been a traditional way to “square the circle” and to resolve the tension between staying with an aging wife and an ache for fresh pussy that for many men never goes away.
It’s not what every man wants… but it allows him to have what he wants. And I am going to call it the “Classic Solution.”
A brief interlude:
If marriage and “a woman at home” is easy to understand, the “pussy on the side” is the complicated part. And that brings us to the role of “the love affair” in the Classic Solution.
The discreet affair is the functioning mechanism of it all. You take a lover. (Or many… over the years.) It’s “pussy on the side,” but it’s never brought up at the dinner table. It’s discreet, unspoken, very, very… Secret Society.
I think affairs are normal – as in, they are common. Not admirable, but a “tool” relationships have employed to balance conflicting needs and to relieve pressure that comes from the various dilemmas of monogamy.
This arrangement (as I imagine it) is certainly not “open” or “polyamorous.” In my version of truth this is an important distinction.
I don’t think it’s weird to want to bang other women. I don’t think it’s weird to “need it.” I don’t. But I think asking her to accept that, demanding that she does, to share that with her, is corrosive for the vast majority of couples.
Telling her you aren’t that into her any more, or that you’re just desperate for some “strange pussy,” is insulting. Maintaining her self-esteem is worth the effort. And the dragon of jealousy that stalks the SMP is formidable force.
For both those reasons (and more), a man keeps his side action to himself. He never mentions it to her. He denies it if it ever comes up.
It’s not the “need” itself that is so unimaginable, it’s the rubbing it in her face that is too much to expect her to manage. It’s expecting her to share the responsibility for it that is a failure on the part of the man. The man owns it or it doesn’t work.
Once more: None of this ideal.
But if the choices are family and no sex, or rubbing my desire for other women in my wife’s face, I think the Classic Solution is to have an affair and keep it myself. The solution is the “lesser of evils,” where a man chooses this path as opposed to divorce or never beginning the relationships at all.
The solution is practical. And I respect it. It’s not pretty (not at this stage), but it has been tested through the ages as a means for some men to avoid both horns of the bull.
Back to Mr Martino…
MR. MARTINO: I did what I did to make myself feel like a man.
He is right about something here too.
If a man has sexual needs, and he has the personal power to satisfy them, what does accepting sexlessness to do his own self-esteem? If he makes major compromises at this level, are we sure his wife cannot feel a change in him as his sex life is neutered? Does any of that help his marriage?
Mr Martino needed his side action. And I think, if I ever try to start a family, I might need it too.
Discreet side action enables the whole enterprise.
And I was excited about this scene, as it delivered a common truth in such a “matter of fact” way. It wasn’t meant to be controversial, because to Vinny and his dad, it’s not controversial – it’s just how it is. And I was glad to hear them talk about it.
It was refreshing.
I don’t want to learn how things “should be.” I want to learn how they actually are. In that way, Mr Martino gave me an outline for something that I might try to implement one day.
First, there is a very comfortable admission as Mr Martino says that wanting “a wife and pussy on the side” (“like most men”) is a kind of normal. I agree.
Then, his saying he knows he was no “true blue,” that he fooled around, he recognizes that… no excuses. But he is clear that he needed it (in some way) to make himself “feel like a man.” And I really get that – to continue to hunt, seduce, to find success (and relief), sexually, to find that excitement and pleasure, to not have to give that up… I get it.
And finally…
Even as Mr Martino hooks up with Mrs Di Piari (and there were “others”), he goes on to say that all those girls were a kind of vague second place to his wife, that they were the “puttana” (“whores”), and that he never considered leaving his wife for any of them… “never.”
MR. MARTINO: But Vinny, I never considered leaving.
MR. MARTINO: Not once.
“Not once.”
I really like that. Here Mr Martino makes clear the point of the whole conversation. It is not, in fact, the side pussy. The conversation is about coming home.
There is a crazy tension of needs and ideals in this scene. Noble – to try to establish and provide for a family. Conflict – as the bride becomes a Madonna, and sex is no longer a focus. Ignoble – as a man has an affair. Proud – as he can see the hunter-killer in him is proven to be alive once again. Pleasure – in new romance and sexual release. Responsibly – in holding all this on his own, not expecting his wife to share his burden. And a kind of practical nobility again – in the final Commitment: To always come home. To never mistake “some goods times” for what is really important.
I have had this conversation before. And it freaks people out to stare at it like this, but for me, it’s so “classic” as to be calming.
Maybe I am a bastard that I see it this way.
But I don’t think I could ever be truly monogamous (maybe not until my sex drive is completely dead). And, like most men, I assume I could not maintain sexual attraction to my wife forever (the thought of sex with women beyond 40 years of age is not appealing to me). I don’t assume I would just give up on my sex life. And I wouldn’t ask my lovely wife to share that burden.
So…
Maybe I am bastard for saying all this out loud. And maybe Mr Martino was too. But I don’t think so. I think he was teaching me something. And I was glad to see it all articulated so clearly in that scene.
The solution works to not ONLY keep “fresh pussy” flowing, but also to relieve the pressure that might kill an otherwise successful family situation. Mr Martino’s emphasis was that the pussy was a diversion, that he needed it. But maybe each scratch of that itch also created the space he needed to keep coming home, and to hold onto the continuity with his wife. I appreciate all that very much.
I have often said about the Classic Solution that while many people find the suggestion so revolting, I think the model itself can help hold marriages together. I believe that. Ideals are wonderful. But the pressure to always live up to an ideal is often more than most mortals can manage.
I think Vinny and his father show two paths: Vinny chose a separation as a means to start over with a younger girl and keep the blood flowing though his veins. I get that too…. that is one option. But his father used the Classic Solution. Fucking side-chicks was a kind of “pressure relief,” and that allowed him to STAY. And in many ways, I think “doing what you have to do” as you hold your family together is the better path.
The Classic Solution carries such a strong truth for me as to be beautiful… because it is not just about hedonism and young titties, it’s about a plan to always come home at the end of the day.
I think father knows best.
I am not married. And since I make no commitments to the girls I date, there are never any promises to break.
But maybe the path I am on… where I have my “freedom” and never “run around” on a woman I am supposed to be committed to… maybe this is “cheating” both me and some woman (one from the past or one I have yet to discover) out of a shot at a real family.
Maybe I am a bastard as I see all this is as a kind of true, timeless wisdom. Maybe it makes me a bad man that I plan to someday use this outline to help me navigate the dilemma and that I might involve a woman in such a mess…
Maybe.
Maybe.
I don’t know.
For now… I’ll go on being a bachelor. I’ll continue to learn about attraction, and the sexual urge, leading women, jealousy, and all that. I’ll see, up close and personal, that relationships are not always “perfect fairytale romances.” That is just not how the sexual marketplace works.
But in many ways I think I know enough. I think I have caught up to the Classical Solution, which was there long before me.
And maybe I’ll give it a shot someday. Like Mr Martino. Build that family. Have some “good times” when I need them to clean out my pipes. And then get home to take care of what is really important.
I can respect that.
We’ll see.
Viva Daygame.
Do you read Blackdragon’s blog? One of his main points is that if you establish the relationship as nonmonagamous from the beginning (and do that in the “right” way), then you don’t need to cheat/lie, nor do you need to “rub [your] desire for other women in [your] wife’s face”. And you avoid the “ownership dynamic” that kicks in once exclusivity is established. (BD: “Then, suddenly, without warning almost, the drama starts. The nitpicking, the arguing, the jealously, the demands, the territorialness”.)
BTW, I thought it was interesting that you ask “How does a man hold his attraction for his wife as he watches her age past 30, past 40, past 50 years old?”, but you didn’t allude to the fact that in marriages and live-in couplings, the woman’s sexual desire for the man usually vanishes long before the man’s does. A woman who has been living with her lover for five years probably does not find him sexually desirable any more. Lots of other men, yes, but not him. It’s just female biology, and it doesn’t matter how “good” he is. He could be the most attractive, flawless man on the planet, but proximity will kill her desire nonetheless.
I don’t. I wrote about BlackDragon with respect to Magnum, and I know he has some good concepts, but I don’t like the guy.
I understand the concept… but I think it’s borderline autistic to think this works with women. It’s the assumption that words/logic can make a girl feel cool about all that. I am sure there are girls that will put up with it, sometimes. Or girls that were never that into him in the first place, so it’s fine. But I think high quality women never have to say yes to that… if they have a better option.
The suggestion is insulting to most serious women.
And again, I think this is often a failure on the guy’s part to own the side action (the RESPONSIBILITY of it), to keep it to himself. He gives her this talk out of weakness, not out of strength. He is asking her, upfront, to help him carry something that is awkward between them. Terrible offer.
I know that it can work… sometimes. It’s another kind of tradeoff. But one that is crude to the max IMAO.
Girls hearts don’t care about “contracts.” She is going to feel what she feels, no matter what you told her. So I don’t buy it. It’s very “mathematical” and that means nothing in the world of hearts and women.
If she likes you… she is going to ask for more. Period.
Maybe that is true… but I don’t write this blog for chicks.
But to your point, yeah… she might also have unmet sexual needs, and she might want her own slice of the Secret Society… the Secret Society is mostly women, after all.
There might be reasons for both husband/wife to stay in the relationship, even after sex burns out. And it could be LOVE in fact, that remains (it’s possible). And the Classic Solution allows you work out what what you’re missing on the side… and preserve the marriage.
This whole post is an anti-modern screed. We all know how to get divorced. But what are our other choices? There are some classic ones.
I have this open situation for a few years and have been unable to optimize it. My biggest issues are logistics, being open about the situation, and being disinterested in the game.
The largest hurdle is probably the nature of being open with your arrangement with new partners.
People want what they can’t have. You tell them they can have it, then some of the allure goes away. You play the part, tell them that ‘no you can’t have it, but I want you anyways’ and you light a small fire that can be fun, except the parts when you have to put in the work to maintain the facade of ‘sneaking around’.
Your right, she get her feels, but I like to think of it more as her distraction and attention and the challenge of wresting you away. It’s always been best for me to meet them at some sort of inflection point in their lives that opens up that want that leads to overindulgence with someone new.
I want to argue with you, but I actually understand what you’re saying.
Many times – you’re right.
I won’t play the “want what you can’t have game.” Personally, I never want what I can’t have. I get it, and I’ve been heartbroken, and have been through rejection too many times… but I don’t like games and I would rather have “a bird in the hand” than a perfect bird… just out of reach. Every time. That is a feature of “high self esteem.” High self esteem doesn’t chase.
And as for ATTRACTION: I think that “people want what they can’t have” is a call for “drama” of some kind. I mean this in a friendly way. People want emotion. Her “balloon has to be full.” Girls like an “ice cream sundae,” but if it’s 100% sweet, they’ll get sick fast.
I don’t think they want “what they can’t have,” they just need some emotion, and that often comes from CONTRAST. It’s the PUSH to the PULL. We are back there again.
I am heavy pull. I give a lot of compliments. I praise. I come forward. I maintain/build her self-esteem. But… I have heavy boundaries, and I’m strong, and I’m not at all afraid of confrontation… and that makes my “sweetness” attractive.
The answer is in PUSH/PULL. And you don’t need “negative” affect for the push. The push can be in your BIG EGO, or in FLASHES of “hot temper,” or how much recent success you’re having outside of her (“big gains”) or in anything “dangerous” about a man. That way…
She gets to have the man, but have “emotions” too.
I feel like I’m at this very crossroads in my current relationship (6 months now, yikes!).
Neither of us have verbalised any sort of commitment, but I guess she’s become the ‘defacto girlfriend’, we’ve fallen into a steady pattern of meeting once per week. She’s been consistently good company and great sex the whole time.
We had a ‘roleplay’ conversation last weekend where she more or less told me that if i slept with another girl, she would leave me (it turned out to be a great way to broach the topic, actually).
And fair enough, she’s a great chick who’s never going to have a problem finding a decent guy…why would she share one?
However great she is, I know deep down that I just couldn’t stay monogamous with her. I’m only just beginning to hit my stride with women and am loving the process.
Nash, how do you square Mr Martino’s “sneaky side girl” idea with the JBP’s “tell the truth” mantra? I guess here you are swaying more towards the “or at least, don’t lie” part of Rule 8 in his 12 Rules for Life book.
I totally feel you there. 100%. I am not done yet.
(“sneaky side girl”.. It’s not sneaky. I don’t like sneaky. It’s about being loud about something else. Tricky topic, but “energetically” I’ll never be “sneaky.”)
I don’t actually like the “tell the truth” part of JBP. I think “honesty” is a very ill-defined concept, and it’s misused and causes a lot of damage. Quite often, “Honesty” is used as a club to beat another person… and that’s not honorable either. It’s a different kind of weakness.
“Yeah, you DO look fat in those jeans.” What then, JBP?
I think there are always “competing Truths.”
And this is what I love about Martino’s dialog with Vinny. It BOUNCES TWICE:
— Starts off into marriage…
— It BOUNCES off of marriage into an affair
— It then BOUNCES AGAIN, into a commitment to NEVER LEAVE, despite the affairs
Mr Martino doesn’t back his way into his argument. He knows what he is doing and he goes straight for it. But I personally backed into it… that is how I got here:
ALL THE OTHER CHOICES ARE WORSE. This is what I mean by “lesser of evils.”
Maybe never getting married and having kids is a kind of cowardice (one that fit me, currently). Maybe being married, “post sex” is a deal breaker (especially for men younger than me, but I’m not done with sex either). Maybe telling her “hey, I want to go fuck around” is cruel and insulting. And maybe divorce really sucks (and is destroying civilization in it’s own way).
So… what is left?
Maybe we don’t commit to “monogamy.” We commit to the marriage… and “relief pressure” on the side. And we are 100% responsible for doing that as clean as possible.
And then it is a “POINT OF ART” about how we set up the “pressure relief” of affairs without making that explicit. Without forcing your lovely wife to look at that in close detail.
Telling her “I am going to fuck this girl, but don’t worry, I’ll be back” is completely impractical. I know the poly (/open marriage) people like it – but I reject that concept for myself and for almost every woman I could imagine being with.
HERE IS ANOTHER PART: “If it’s far away, people can face it, if it’s up close… they can’t handle it.” That is a paraphrase from Lance Mason.
So… to pull this off, I imagine I would tell her some stories that allude to the fact that “even though I am marrying you, you know I am still a dangerous man, right?” And then give her a look. That is saying something, but it’s not “so close” as to make her face the details or to share responsibility.
I don’t way “I’m harmless.” I say “I’m dangerous, and I love you, take care of the kids, and I’ll be back from this trip in three days.”
A hint. I think that is a hint at how it’s done.
HER: Are you seeing someone else
ME: My commitment it to you and this marriage, and I need us both to stay focused on that
ME: I said I was going to be back, and I am, and I’m 100% with you, and this is how it’s going to be
A hint.
Could be huge fights. But I never share my affairs with her. And I always come back. And it’s up to me to BE THERE when I am supposed to me. And to make promises, to her and the kids, often, and meet them.
HER: Are you seeing someone else
ME: Baby, I have promises I need to keep to you and the kids, and I am doing that
Another hint.
Does this sound easy? Or “100%?” No, it doesn’t. And it’s STILL BETTER than the other choices. Like I said, I backed my way into this philosophy, and I can’t see anything that beats it… it’s “classic.”
All of this, BTW… is mostly “post sex” with my wife. All of this assumes we are still affectionate, we still love each other, but the sex is mostly done.
I think doing this “non explicit” side action stuff will actually kill the passion in a sexual relationship. But in an asexual very LTR, that part is already faded. How do we manage that we still have a sex drive? Whores (one classic solution, I am not interested). And affairs (another). To my wife, they are almost the same thing… and I would (personally) never tell her about either. Never. Not at gunpoint. That’s all for me to “hold.”
This is a complicated issue.
And The Classic Solution is the best answer I have ever seen to it.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
This is a real one I had years ago, a kind of “shit test” maybe.
HER: Are you seeing someone else?
ME: No
HER: But, are you EMOTIONALLY CHEATING? THAT’S JUST AS BAD?
ME: Ha!
ME: Darling… I love you…
ME: And you know what I think? I think all girls need some “drama” in their lives.
ME: And I love you for that, too! Aren’t girls marvelous?
ME: So if you want to think YOUR DANGEROUS MAN is “still dangerous”…
ME: KEEP THINKING THAT!
ME: I AM still dangerous. And I am still YOURS.
ME: And I am right here, with you, again, and again…
ME: Now… put your shoes on and come have dinner with me
ME: With or without you… it’s dinner time.
ME: And I am leaving in 15 minutes
And then kiss her and walk away.
The THING about this is (and I ACTUALLY DO USE THIS STUFF, even though I’m not married… I use it in common shit tests)… if you’re INCAPABLE of attracting another woman… she will lose interest. If you fucking another women AND SHE KNOWS IT, even if she is still into you, the relationship slides into mistrust and drama.
It’s ^ a double-bind (you lose either way) if you take it “head on.”
So… you take her argument SIDEWAYS. And then she has drama, she thinks you’re capable of fooling around, but she never has to face it. And… you BEAT HER in the argument (and she can FEEL that too), and she can feel how strong you are that you didn’t get caught in her double-bind.
So… in this case, IT WORKS IF YOU ARE* AND IF YOU **ARE NOT having an affair. And it works in both cases, for the same reasons.
This is part of “the art” of it.
The affair is for you. And the art of keeping it from crushing your lovely wife is an art, that is very similar to any other shit test.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
I think most people know I am a big fan of Pat Stedman. In this example, I’ll argue with Pat about the path forward:
Just a coincidence, but that ^ came out today.
Here is more:
So in this SCENARIO:
— Married man, high value
— Wife is great, but put on some weight, “only has sex 1X per week” (I bet it’ much less)
— Pat advises TELLING HER how you feel
— If she can’t come around, you don’t cheat, but you “create distance”
I think Pat is a very wise guy. I am really challenged (in a good way) by what he says about relationships. And I think this is dangerous plan… I think it fucks with her self esteem.
If she hates you and leaves, or hates herself and stays… either way… marriage is “over.”
If your girl “peaked” physically in early 20s (or earlier), and she has given you a baby (or 2), to expect her to get lean, and/or to have raging sexual attraction for you is too much pressure. I think it’s very “modern” to assume the sex will go on and on… I mostly accept it will not. I think evidence shows it will not.
So to TELL HER all this… and then to “distance from her”… I think is cruel. No dis to Pat. I am clear to say all choices here are difficult… but I don’t like this one at all. It’s also a kind of “rubbing it in her face.”
I would CHALLENGE her to do what she is capable of. But getting lean and having a huge sex drive are both likely going to disappoint me. (You cannot negotiate desire… you can’t make her want you more).
I want my woman to be GRACEFUL. I would push her for that. That is doable and worth fighting over.
But as for her weight, and the sex… I would get that on the side. I would have an affair with a girl that wants me, and love my wife for what she is (not what I wish she was). And not punish her for doing what “older females bodies do” – which is look and act like older female bodies.
I am trying to articulate a strategy that avoids divorce, but where men can still get laid. And it’s an old strategy…
I like the CLASSIC SOLUTION better.
Thanks for your thoughts man.
The ‘classic’ solution does seem like the best option when you frame it this way. I’d happily ‘commit’ to this girl long term if i could get some action on the side occasionally.
Also, I know a lot of married men in that ‘value reversal’ situation described in Pat’s email. A really tough situation.
I don’t know what the “best” thing is, man. But I have been looking at this for years…
And I can’t come up with anything better than The Classic Solution.
Thomas Sowell says “there are no solutions, only tradeoffs.” That is a hot line.
So the Classic Solution offers a set of trade offs that resolve a lot of pain points. I like it.
And when Mr Martino laid it out like that, I knew what it was… and it sounded like “wisdom” to me. For men that go this route, they won’t be the first/last to aim for this set up tradeoffs.
I have personal life experience with girls who love me getting fat.
It can be very frustrating to have no influence over what appears to me as a very detrimental food addiction.
Out of three girls, one got it under control. For her I told her that I had no choice but to break up with her until she got slim. She told me that she could never do it alone, and would just get fatter.
She used some stimulants for a while to help her. She slimmed up quickly and kept it off.
The other two there was nothing I could say or do.
Sad. It’s very destructive to a relationship to get fat. Destructive all around.
Personally, I never give girls this kind of negative feedback. It’s just not my style.
But at least you give girls a chance to fix it. I would just move on… let her guess, but not have to “face it” in black and white.
Pat would like your style. And I’m listening, but I would rather tell girls indirectly – for their own self esteem. When I enforce a boundary, I am 100% confrontational. I have no problem telling it how it is…
But one of the greatest appeals of being a player was never having to “force” a girl to change. I could love her for what she is, in small doses. Or move on.
And neither of us are married. So we have these kinds of luxuries. I wonder about married men and married life… and I might insist that she is graceful (behavioral standards), but as for her weight, or her sexual interest…
I would just go get some, on the side.
I was living with that girl at the time, and we’d been living together for maybe 4 months. I was way into her. Kiki. We lived together until she died, and would never have broken up, as far as I can see.
Great girl. But I don’t want a fat girlfriend. So, ultimatum was the only option.
The other two we were no longer living together by the time they got fat. One I stopped seeing BECAUSE she was fat. The other never got quite that fat, but we stopped seeing each other for other reasons.
When I’m into a girl, we spend a lot of time together. Even if I have 3 or up to 5 girlfriends, it seems as if we sort of live together. Living together is a common arrangement for me, and often happens from the first date. My current girl moved in basically the first date, as did many others.
Some might visit and sleep over near every night. Amounts to basically living together.
So even when not monogamous, it’s rarely anything close to casual dating. Pretty well always girls who want marriage and babies.
I know it might sound absurd. One example, from about 5 years ago. A newer girl would visit every night, but had to leave at her curfew, which was midnight. Then I’d pick up a 2nd girl who would sleep with me. I had two other girls that I kept in two other apartments in the same city, who I would visit as often as I could, which was sometimes daily.
I know it sounds ridiculous.
I also had a few new dates around that time.
The one who was leaving at midnight caught me with other girls a few times, but we would up living together full time and were together about 2.5 years. She left me after I refused to get married.
Nowadays I just see the 1 Iive with, but she has nearly nightly nightmares of me fucking around. I must be exuding my past out of my pores, I guess.
So many great lines in your comments.
“but I think it’s borderline autistic to think this works with women. It’s the assumption that words/logic can make a girl feel cool about all that. ”
“Girls hearts don’t care about “contracts.””
“Telling her “I am going to fuck this girl, but don’t worry, I’ll be back” is completely impractical. ”
“if you’re INCAPABLE of attracting another woman… she will lose interest. If you fucking another women AND SHE KNOWS IT, even if she is still into you, the relationship slides into mistrust and drama.”
“Thomas Sowell says “there are no solutions, only tradeoffs.” ”
The last one sums up the bitter sweetness of the whole thing. There really is no solution.
For this kind of line. I am reading this book now call Open Her. It is a messy book. The author is messy. But she has some great things to say. I could NOT recommend her to a “beginner” (or even many amateurs), because she has a strong frame, and she’s a bit fucked up… and I’d want to save this book for very confident, experienced men, who could read between the lines…
But it’s a great book for men like that.
I will write about it… it’ll be 1/2 “check out this book” and 1/2 that author is sea of red flags, but has a lot of wisdom.
You, Xsplat… might like it. #femalepsych to the max in that book. You would know when to ignore her.
HAVE MULTIPLE FAMILIES
BE A SULTAN
BE THE KING
” I wonder about married men and married life… and I might insist that she is graceful (behavioral standards), but as for her weight, or her sexual interest…
I would just go get some, on the side.”
That’s probably one of those things you never know how you’ll feel until you are living it.
It’s strange how that works. Our hypothetical responses don’t always match up. We often discover them and are surprised.
For me, a relationship is not about points earned in the past. It is a day to day thing. I have no interest in living with a girl who I have no sexual interest in. I know perfectly well what it’s like to have side dishes, but I don’t see that as a substitute. For me, a relationship is not a relationship without physical lust and sex. I can get friendships on the side.
I’d see it as dishonorable and disgusting to live a life quiet desparation. A fat wife with no sex drive would be like waking up to farts in my face and nagging. Visual flat out disrespect and dishonor.
And that’s the bitter sweet part. Every existing human race and every territory is the result of conquest and brutal wars. Often genocides. My life has been full of incredibly deep to the point of traumatic heartbreak, and I’ve caused a great deal of pain. Animals survive off of eating the living flesh of other animals.
If I had not caused so much pain, I would never be attractive or capable enough to cause more pain, or feel more love.
If I were the kind of guy who would let a woman I live with slide, and as appreciation for her past efforts of putting out children just let her retire, I would not be the kind of man she’d be so into and passionate about in the first place. She’d never have fallen in love on the first date, nor become tamed, nor have asked me today to get marriage pictures to show her parents, as a 30 year younger hottie with a perfect bod.
I’m not a nice guy. Not at all. Many of my actions are near psychopathic. I have extremely high expectations, and strong boundaries. Every single day, I demand serious tribute in terms of love, devotion, joy, sex. Our house is full of kindness and love and sex. Every day.
That came at a terrible, horrible cost.
Bitter sweet.
I think this is a common scenario.. and always has been.
I never considered leaving. Not once. She asked me to help her to move out.
Okay, man. I hear you.
It’s not always up to us.
I really feel your comment. And I know I am poking at a sensitive concept here… and I thank you for adding to the conversation. I am trying to work my way deeper into these issues.
I’m still trying to learn how to be as good a listener and as authentically diplomatic as you.
Hope you come out to Indo and visit some time.
This is an advanced move, for an older guy with significant experience with women. Most guys will fail to have the composure to handle the nuclear shit test she will throw at you if she suspects you are seeing other girls. A guy has to be authentic with himself and trust himself and not crack under questioning and she has to feel all of that. “Are you seeing someone else?” is one of the hardest shit tests out there. I’ve failed it a number of times, usually with younger girls and they have noped out of the situation – because they were relatively high quality girls and have better options. A friend of mine dates lower quality girls he meets online and usually skates by with a congruent answer of “yes, but nothing serious” but he is always complaining about the quality. Perhaps the anchor of having children, having her be past her prime, and being able to pass the nuclear level shit test is the right mix of checks and balances to keep 2 people together.
Very interesting consideration, Runner. Non-monogamy is a trade off, a less than ideal accommodating bargain, for the girl in an LTR. The guy usually has to trade off also. Areas to trade are:
* Youth
* Beauty
* Sanity and kindness
* kids
Oh, and of course
* class and education
* smarts